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	== Description of technique is Western-centric ==

	Globally about 30% of men (1.2 billion) are circumcised. The article's description of how circumcision is performed only reflects the methods used in the US. The majority of boys are cut in ritual 3rd-world conditions, with unsanitary instruments, by medically-untrained traditional practitioners. In Africa there have been hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations and over 400 deaths in the past decade. Source: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/25/male-circumcision-ceremonies-death-deformity-africa

	Footage of a traditional African circumcision ceremony: www.vice.com/en_au/video/imbalu-circumcision-party-2-of-2

	Circumcision of boys in the Philippines at puberty without anesthesia: http://phys.org/news/2011-05-philippine-city-mass-circumcision-youths.html

	Complications of traditional African circumcision (NSFW): http://ulwaluko.co.za/
	{{unsigned\|96.40.125.144\|14:54, 15 November 2014‎ (UTC)}}

	:It isn't that the article's description is Western-centric but rather per Misplaced Pages content policy it reflects the emphasis found in the ], and the article's sourcing comes from sources around the world. I noticed that the article about the Philipines doesn't appear to support the assertion that anesthesia generally wasn't used for the one event the article describes. Also I didn't see a source for the assertion "the majority of boys are cut in ritual 3rd-world conditions"; actually the sourcing provided in the Misplaced Pages article doesn't support that. Sourcing does indeed support that risks of complications are higher when the procedure is performed by an inexperienced operator or in unsterile conditions, and the article already states that. This does remind me that I was going to add a bit more about that, and I will do so, thanks for the reminder. Also Misplaced Pages does have an article that focuses specifically on religious aspects, see ]. <code>]]</code> 03:05, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

	@96.40.125.144\|14:54. You are quite correct - the article has a strong pro-circcumcision stance and a strong USA leaning in many aspects. Statistics given are based on USA statistics but presented as if universal. Many of the deleterious aspects of Circumcision are simply not permitted to be referenced at all within the article under the current editorial regime here. The massive decline in the popularity of circumcision is presented in an hilariously obscure way, et cetera. --— ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 21:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

	== Circumcision as Mutilation ? Should this secondary academically documented idea be mentioned within the Circumcision article ? ==

	The discussion above about whether the two secondary sources which are referenced within the Mutilation WP article should also be referenced within this article was cut short above. This academic textbook and academic journal article are younger and more focussed than several article and book references which we already use. Despite this one editor objects to them being described as "active" and objects to their age . Please see discussion above. Please comment. --— ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 19:04, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

	:I hope you will be making this discussion different from the one {{u\|EvergreenFir}} closed by identifying high-quality reliable sources and making a specific proposal. Please specify which sources you're talking about, and what content you're proposing exactly? I'm curious to know what source you're describing as an "academic textbook". <code>]]</code> 19:10, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

	::I cannot be responsible for your hopes and yearnings Zad/Zach. References as in previous discussion. Do you too feel that this subject should have references younger than the current article references as Yobol apparently does ? A simple yes or no would be clear - though perhaps you could explain your support or opposition too. --— ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 19:31, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

	:::Specify those reference you discussed with {{u\|Yobol}} here please, I have learned not to assume. And you need to propose specific content if you'd like comment about it. <code>]]</code> 19:39, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

	Benatar M, Benatar D (2003). "Between prophylaxis and child abuse: the ethics of neonatal male circumcision". Am J Bioeth 3 (2): 35–48. doi:10.1162/152651603766436216. PMID 12859815.

	Perhaps consideration of these two sources could enrich debate here on this page and content and referencing and links within the article.

	Here is the Benatar and Benatar article http://mwbdvjh.muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_journal_of_bioethics/v003/3.2benatar.html from the MIT website.

	I originally proposed the following content
	'''Whether or not male circumcision amounts to mutilation is a subject of active academic debate.'''

	Despite these references being younger than several references currently in use within the article, Yobol, as you know, felt that they were too "old". So I offered to excise the word "active" Yobol then, I think, did not like the word "Mutilation", but consideration of "Mutilation" is the central point of the proposed edit . I hope this is now as clear to you now here as it was there then .--— ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 20:03, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
	:I will reiterate my opposition to the proposed edit; the source is old, and gives undue weight to concern of "academic debate", as the source mentions only one other source (Denniston 1999). The source also appears to largely discount the conclusion that this is "mutilation", and therefore the proposed edit would not be a good summary of the source. ] (]) 22:22, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

	:::Thank you for your reiteration Yobol. Your reply fails to address the point that there are older references already used within the article. The point of the edit is not to describe Circumcision as Mutilation but to record that these two amongst other sources consider it important to acknowledge that some consider it so, as the wording of the proposed edit bears out. But reason seems to have little bearing on the concerted opposition to balancing this article The Benatar and Benatar article has several dozen references which must have escaped your notice.???--— ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 19:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
	::::Yobol did indeed meet your point, please reread what he wrote. Many of your statements in this reply aren't relevant to the points being made. <code>]]</code> 00:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

	::::Beg to differ once again Zad - your merely stating that it is so does not make it so, particularly without any supporting argument but your support for Yobol/Doc James/Alexbrn/Flyer22 and the rest of the Desert Patrol remains predictable.Try to answer the argument raised and those in immediately previous discussions instead of merely circling the wagons.--— ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 19:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Academics rarely debate whether something is "mutilation"—academics might study whether significant numbers of people in a certain group regard something to be mutilation, but generally academics researching this topic would study things like whether circumcision on a baby is painful, what complication might occur, what health outcomes might be, and what people believe. What is obvious is that academics publish thousands of articles each month, and a very large number of unlikely topics are covered. Before Misplaced Pages can assert that something is a "subject of active academic debate", we would need a ] to verify the statement—a couple of papers mentioning a topic do not amount to an academic debate—see ]. ] (]) 00:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

	::::::What "couple of papers" are you referring to- Johnuniq ?--— ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 20:54, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

	== Should Have Section Detailing Possible Effects on Function and Sexual Function ==		== Should Have Section Detailing Possible Effects on Function and Sexual Function ==

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Editors sometimes propose that the page should be renamed to male circumcision, male genital mutilation, or male genital cutting. Consensus has rejected these proposals, because they are used in only a small minority of reliable sources. Most reliable sources refer to circumcision as "circumcision"; thus, in accordance with WP:TITLE, Misplaced Pages does the same.

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Should Have Section Detailing Possible Effects on Function and Sexual Function

Hi. I think that we should have a sections of this page detailing possible effects that this surgery could have on function and sexual function. This is because the penis is both an organ and is also used during sex. I think that this should be agreeable since with any surgery there are possible affects on the function of the organ operated on. With new research coming out from Sorrels, Morris in the British Journal of Urology and Frisch Morten and Linholm Morton in the International Journal of Epimiology indicating that this procedure may remove the most sensitive parts of the penis, well as make sex more painful and less pleasureful for women, I believe that evidence exists indicating that this could negatively affect pleasure and function. JohnPRsrcher (talk) 20:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There's already a summary of the secondary sourcing regarding this topic in the article. The existing content is well-supported with many (I believe we're up to 6 now) WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary sources. All I am aware of from Sorrels and Morten are individual primary studies, and they've already been discussed. Per WP:MEDREV we do not use individual primary studies to counter multiple sources. What are the PMIDs of the sources you're mentioning, and which Morris are you talking about? Zad68 20:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

These aren't from PubMed they're from the British Journal of Urology, which has done much research over the past years regarding circumcision and its effects on function. Its Sorrells L. Morris . The article is fine touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis.

Also there is another article in the BJU on its affect on sexual function indicating that it is negative. See The Effect of Male circumcision on sexuality. Also see Male circumcision decreases penile sensitivity as measured in a large cohort. And see the article the Prepuce in the BJU that details its roles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk • contribs)

You mean Morris Sorrells? That is not "new research", that is a 1997 primary study that is already taken into account by the secondary sources. Please look at WP:MEDRS for Misplaced Pages's sourcing standards for medical content, and WP:MEDREV which covers particular situation. Zad68 02:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

That is not my only source. That was only an example. I believe that adverse effects is not the proper term for a sub-section, as this procedure is a bodily modification that lasts a lifetime. Since this surgery is also a type of body modification, we should have an effects on function section. In addition, there should be an effect on sexuality section, as the penis is both an organ that is used for sex and is used for other bodily tasks.

JohnPRsrcher (talk) 20:27, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Those are all good points JohnPR. Both the content and "gerrymandered" layout of this article have been odiously and glaringly defective for a long time now. Some editors work hard to maintain this sorry state of affairs. Some do so by simply reverting any addition to the article that is not positive to Circumcision. Others feign interest in improving the article and then raise objections to proposed content on spurious grounds- by misrepresenting WP policy, or objecting to content which is younger than currently used pro-circumcision references as "too old". They baulk at other references as being "not medical enough" despite Circumcision being largely a cultural act.Abstracts and articles are selectively quoted omitting negatives and cautions. Conversly many references have been provided for the long acknowledged deadening effect of circumcision on penile sensitivity beginning with Maimonides who stated

"the main purpose of the act is to repress sexual pleasure, with the strongest reason being that it is difficult for a woman to separate from an uncircumcised man with whom she has had sex"

Other research has looked at diminished pleasure for women from the loss of the sliding action that a foreskin provides and for other reasons. There appears to be little chance of this group of editors permitting any mention of these in the english language WP at any rate at present. The German and French language WP articles on Circumcision are better at the wider picture. You might like to check them out -I think that there is a translator facility attached to them. The Effects section and Adverse Effects sections here in USA WP Circumcision article are particularly hilarious results of this agenda over time. While the embargo on change in this article has lasted for many years I think it is still important to draw attention to it on this page for many reasons, even if only for future editors and anthropologists !.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /_Stalk 07:36, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Should Have Section on Pain

I think that this article should have a section describing the pain experienced by infants or persons undergoing this procedure. According to a recent review of the pain relief of circumcision from the cochraine organization, as well as any observer of the procedure, this procedure is painful as noted by loud crying, distorted facial expressions, and intense shaking or vibrating. I think that since we are describing a surgery we should have a section detailing the pain persons may go through as a side effect of this surgery. JohnPRsrcher (talk) 20:53, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There is already a section on Pain management in the article. I reviewed the Cochrane database publications on this topic published in the last 5 years, which are you talking about exactly? Do you mean Cyna and Middleton, or Kassab et al.? Zad68 21:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

It is Brady-Fryer B, Wiebe N, Lander JA. Try going to BJU. This clearly states that it is painful regardless of intervention as indicated by facial expressions, salivation, loud crying, and many other factors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk • contribs)

From 2004? I thought you said "recent review"? The article already states that the procedure causes pain, using more up-to-date sourcing, I don't see what the advantage is in using a 10-year-old review. Zad68 02:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal that there should be a separate and better section on pain. It should have sub sections on pain in infant, adolescent, adult and in forced and bush ciccumcisions. These should include information on pain during the act, in the recovery period, and the long term pain effects from loss of tissue, scarring, impaired penis function, and pain for penetrative sexual partners of the circumcised.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /_Stalk 07:56, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Summary Does not Properly Represent Circumcision, Please do not automatically delete edits

Saying that the foreskin is taken off after being inspected is not true. According to research it must be broken from the glans first and then cut off. This is not too descriptive as people reading the page should be able to know what a circumcision is.

In addition, saying that circumcision is non-painful in opening paragraph is not correct. It is painful as indicated by many different factors (loud crying for one.) This should not be looked over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk • contribs)

The article does state "separated from the glans", maybe you missed that. The article already summarizes the technique as detailed in a specialized surgical guide and a major technical report from the AAP both from 2012. According to the sourcing, many procedures are performed with a device that clamps the skin and causes separation, so specifying "a cut is made" doesn't cover the range of techniques adequately. Also please review WP:MEDDATE, we use up-to-date sources where available. Zad68 02:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Those who presently maintain this article in its present bizarrely unbalanced state are generally at pains to select the most convoluted euphemisms for "cut off' of the foreskin, breaking the adhesions to the penis head, and cutting off of the frenula.Words such as "open" and 'remove" are chosen instead They also selectively quote from article abstracts, and give undue emphasis to any article content, even when unmentioned in the abstract, if it has anything positive to say about circumcision. Consequently many aspects of Circumcision such as forced circumcision, the sale of circumcised foreskins, bush fatalities from circumcision, gender re-asssignment due to botched circumcisions, and fatal diseases transmitted in New York, Israel and and Austria from religious circumcisions of infants continue to go unmentioned here as well as the omissions you attempted to correct.We must investigate the mechanisms that WP has in place to try to curb this sort of hijacking of an important article on this form of cultural body modification. --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /_Stalk 17:18, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Zad68. We should be using non technical terms, especially for the lead, and using up to date sources. Yobol (talk) 19:27, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes this is true. I think that we agree that these words open and remove are biased and unrealistic when it comes to talking about this procedure. Rather, we should use words that properly represent the procedure, which involves the tearing of two structures as well as a cut of an organ.

JohnPRsrcher (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

See Yobol's comment on this above, also please review WP:MEDMOS, we write for the general reader. Zad68 20:55, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Should have a section on Effects on Function and Effects on Sexuality because Circumcision is both a Surgery and Body Modification

Circumcision is both a surgery and body modification, and professionals in the medical field have not come to consensus about whether it is medically necessary or not. Because it permanently alters ones body, and since we are unsure about whether it is medically important or not, I advocate that we add two sections titled "effects on function" and "effects on sexuality." The reasoning behind the naming of the functions is that the penis is a body part that provides a bodily role and a sexual role. For this reason we should divide its functions into its general functions, and those dependent on the act of intercourse. I believe that just one section titled "adverse effects" does not properly represent the effects of this procedure. This only applies to effects in the short term. Since this procedure is in the long term, additional sections are needed.

JohnPRsrcher (talk) 20:32, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I do not see support for this suggestion in the sourcing. Zad68 20:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed Expansion of Summary Paragraph 2

In paragraph 2 of the summary it is listed that ethical concerns have been raised over circumcision. I believe that we should expand this point. Recently, two large political decisions have been made that have caused widespread controversy over circumcision. One of these is the 2012 ruling by the German district court of Cologne that circumcision is an offense that can be prosecuted. The other is the 2013 resolution by the Parliamentary Assembly Council of Europe that determined that male circumcision is a violation of the physical integrity of a child, and asked states to adopt legal provisions to ensure that these practices are not carried out until the children are old enough to be consulted.

I think the best way to represent this is to either expand it in the summary or add another subsection titled circumcision and the law. Or circumcision and controversy.

JohnPRsrcher (talk) 20:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Both of these have been discussed here before. Neither of them panned out as particularly impactful: the Cologne ruling ended up with Germany voting overwhelmingly to make non-medical neonatal circumcision explicitly legal, under certain conditions; PACE is an advisory body only and its recommendations were never acted on, and checking the news archives I don't see any significant follow up since then. Regardless, these topics are already covered at Circumcision and law.

John could I ask you please: Before making more suggestions please do review the archives, just about every one of the suggestions you've brought up has already been discussed thoroughly, probably several times. Zad68 21:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree, with Zad68's comments above, and note that we should not give WP:UNDUE weight to recent political decisions just because they are recent. Yobol (talk) 05:15, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

JohnPR - Do not be intimidated by suggestions that any aspect of Circumcision has been "discussed thoroughly" What this can mean is simply that someone previously was fobbed off from making a useful change to this very poor article. Ditto for misreferencing WP policy - for example the UNDUE reference above addresses not whether one mentions an aspect of a subject but what weight one gives to it in proportion to others. Caveat Scriptor !--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /_Stalk 08:02, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

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