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Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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Process question for the current ArbCom gender case

GGTF interactions arbcom case has now closed

@Jimbo, in September, in this thread on your talk page, you said that you would welcome this case. The thread in question was opened by Carolmooredc (now site banned and topic banned) to tell you she had started an ANI complaint about the alleged disruption of GGTF by 3 users. Neotarf (now site banned and topic banned) added to the thread by telling you that they had requested at ANI that the three users be page banned from the GGTF. Lightbreather (now blocked for socking in the case talk pages, though not a party) added in the same thread that "It is disgraceful that millions of people get their information from a male dominated (85% or more) editing community that regularly dismisses women's complaints about and attempts to address incivility toward individuals and toward projects like the Gender gap task force." Whilst 2 of the users that Carolemooredc and Neotarf were complaining about have been topic banned, the most severe sanctions have been reserved for Carolemooredc and Neotarf themselves. You appeared at that time to (putting it crudely) take the side of those who were complaining about the three users. I have two questions: firstly, what's your view of the arbcom decision? secondly, if you think arbcom decided it correctly, do you now think this wasn't as much of a "one side at fault" situation as your previous comments gave the impression you believed. Given that you appeared to encourage the case I hope you don't say you haven't looked into it sufficiently to give an opinion. DeCausa (talk) 10:42, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a battle ground and I will tell you that several GGTF participants thanked me when I blocked Neotarf for outing. I think that a quiet majority at GGTF supports the removal of troublemakers, regardless of what opinions those users hold. The users banned were sanctioned in part for things outside the scope of GGTF. I don't think it's right to divide users into two "sides" and count how many got banned on each "side" as a means of keeping score. Jehochman 11:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I didn't. My question implies it is always an oversimplification to divide something like this into "sides", and then declare which "side" is in the right. DeCausa (talk) 13:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I fully stand by my earlier remarks. You appear to be viewing my remarks through a lens that isn't true - a lens of "sides" which I reject. I think a lot of people should be sitebanned for misbehavior and that the community will begin to grow and flourish again when we get rid of people who bring more drama than they are worth. As to specific editors in this specific case, I'm afraid I will have to disappoint you by declining to offer detailed opinions of the ArbCom decision. My role with respect to ArbCom doesn't consist of judging whether I agree with specific detailed decisions, but rather to give some oversight as to whether they are following appropriate and fair processes and procedures.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. In fact, this was what I was really wondering: X points out Y's behaviour to you and says Y should be banned. You look at Y's behaviour and say "yes Y should be banned". X then trumpets this as a diff - your opinion carries weight and influence. But actually X's behaviour is as bad or worse. If you haven't examined it, is it wise for you to enter the fray (especially in a contentious area) and give your opinion? DeCausa (talk) 13:54, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes. As I said, I'm not making any statements about the ultimate outcome of the ArbCom case, so I'm very much not saying that "X's behaviour is as bad or worse". You seem to be pushing me to retry the ArbCom case or state how I would have decided this differently. I'm not going there.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:15, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I wasn't trying to do that with my last post, that's why I went for X and Y. I was asking about your perception of the risks associated with giving forthright opinions on circumstances that are presented to you, but which are often more complex and nuanced than might appear from a few diffs. But I see you said "yes" (surprisingly) - so I think I have my answer. Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 15:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the situation was more complex and nuanced that my initial remarks indicated. Things are always very very complex and very very nuanced, and I think I do a good job of acknowledging that. I don't see what's surprising about me being so careful to make things like that as clear as I can.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

There's no benefit in debating the first sentence in your above reply. Now that the case evidence has provided a full context, everyone can and will take their own view on that. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions. DeCausa (talk) 16:26, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

so the answer then to "is it wise for you to enter the fray (especially in a contentious area) and give your opinion?" is always going to be "Yes".  pablo 20:13, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Not always. Only when I am confident that I am right (as I was in this case) and can contribute usefully to the discussion about how to improve the tone and atmosphere in the community. It is wise for me to refuse to comment on matters that I don't know enough about - and so I often do refuse to comment.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

So you won't comment on the case, but how about a hypothetical? Let's say there is a male editor who, after the conclusion of an arbitration case, begins following a female editor from the same case all over the site for months. When that editor is reported for this behavior and there is a proposal to bar the male editor from interacting with the female editor, another male editor comes to his defense and suggests if the male editor is barred from interacting with the female editor that maybe he will start "following her around" instead. After the proposal is passed the other male editor announces he is going to be doing work on Misplaced Pages regarding a link, which just happens to be the personal website of the female editor. The female editor objects and questions his intentions. This male editor then begins taunting her with personal details researched online and plainly expresses his intentions to write a bio about her here. Despite several other objections and the female editor's own protests, this male editor creates a draft that he explains is fully intended to be made into a live article all about the female editor. It is apparent that certain details have been cherry-picked from primary sources and articles about the female editor and presented in a way that is clearly aimed at being unflattering towards her. Despite numerous editors suggesting his actions are woefully inappropriate he insists that he is a perfectly good editor who is being neutral towards this person he detests. Would you consider it acceptable for the Arbitration Committee to ban the female editor for commenting about this male editor's behavior, while giving the male editor essentially nothing more than a warning after praising his efforts on this site?--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

At the WP:Help Desk, it is not uncommon for an editor to post a "hypothetical" question and ask what the Misplaced Pages policy is. The Help Desk volunteers usually decline to answer the "hypothetical" question, which is very seldom hypothetical, but is really being stated hypothetically in order to get an opinion permitting them to wikilawyer on either a conduct dispute or a content dispute. Sometimes the Help Desk editors look at contribution history to determine what the actual issue is and give advice on the actual issue, such as to take the content issue to a dispute resolution process. That appears to be what TDA is doing, posing a supposedly hypothetical case. As is usually the situation, case is not hypothetical, only a biased summary of one aspect of the actual case, failing to take into account additional details that were noted by the ArbCom. I have confidence that User:Jimbo Wales is smart enough to avoid taking the bait, which would then be used to argue that ArbCom blew the case. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

@TDA. That you have managed to reduce this to "male editor" and "female editor" pretty well illustrates what has been wrong with GGTF from day one — identity politics. Not all male editors are sexist harassers. Not all female editors are community-first saints... The biography subject was reeeeeaaaaaaallllly borderline with respect to GNG and should not have been attempted by their on-wiki opponent — as was addressed at AfD and by ArbCom. If you think that has any relationship whatsoever to why the biography subject was banned in the case, you need to reread the case and discussion pages from the start and visit the ArbCom archives dealing with their previous case. Carrite (talk) 21:52, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Carrite and I disagree more often then we agree (which illustrates that male editors do not always think alike). When we agree, it may illustrate that User:The Devil's Advocate is stretching things. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:57, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

TDA wasn't "posing a supposedly hypothetical case", it was genuinely hypothetical. Apart from anything else, nothing in the GGTF case concerned "ban the female editor for commenting about this male editor's behavior". DeCausa (talk) 22:39, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course my hypothetical was not really a hypothetical since it is something that has actually happened. The finding of fact regarding Carol is so weak and so centered on Sitush that it makes me seriously question the judgment of all Arbs involved. Had they proposed a harsher sanction for Sitush and cited serious evidence of misconduct by Carol unrelated to Sitush this result could be acceptable. This is not what they did. Instead they basically did what I just laid out above. I am not big into identity politics, but I do think it demonstrates a serious lack of self-awareness for Arbs to have taken this particular approach regarding the Gender Gap Task Force case given how it looks in context.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

User:DeCausa: TDA acknowledges that it wasn't really a hypothetical case, just a partly correct and partly incorrect statement of part of the actual case. Just because TDA's description of the situation is incomplete and misleading does not make it fictional or hypothetical. Therefore posing the "hypothetical" case was meant as a trick question. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:07, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully you do realise that you stated the blindingly obvious - with the exception of your penultimate sentence. The divergence from reality makes it hypothetical. He just didn't intend it to be read in that way. DeCausa (talk) 21:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

How did I diverge from reality? The cited comments about Sitush, which are the bulk of the argument against her in the finding of fact, are her talking about how Sitush was hounding her and criticizing his conduct towards her. One of the diffs was literally just her responding to an admin on her page about a possible interaction ban and raising basic understandings about what would be allowed.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:43, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Here's where you can discuss this case where the relevant people will see your feedback. It would be rude to bore our host by re-hashing the entire case here.

• Discuss this case

Please leave comments there. Jehochman 02:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

In the summer the Gender Gap list started discussing re-booting its work, this essay contains a selection of quotes from the list for June – September 2014, i.e. prior to the recent Arbcom case. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 00:20, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Article in the Register

The Register has published another article criticizing the Wikimedia Foundation for not using the $60 million in assets it has, which according to the article is "far more than the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) needs to run a website." (I say "another" because of articles like this). Do you, Mr. Wales, have anything to say about this? I.e. what is the purpose of the $60 million that the foundation is said to be "sitting on"? Everymorning talk to me 18:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

The article is by Andrew Orlowski, someone's whose journalistic skills I can't comment on here. --NeilN 19:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I can. Past experience shows he's got a very long history of attacking Misplaced Pages, often with one-sided and inaccurate or downright untrue claims. He's also got form as an egregious climate change denialist. Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. Prioryman (talk) 19:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Orlowski used to be amusing. About ten years ago. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

More diplomatic than I would have put it. :-) --NeilN 20:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the link, NeilN. I must have forgotten to do so myself for some reason. Everymorning talk to me 20:32, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

This one is easy. I'm extremely proud of our financial track record and consider our level of reserves to be prudent and sensible - neither too large nor too small. Here is some typical advice about nonprofit reserves: "A commonly used reserve goal is 3-6 months' expenses. At the high end, reserves should not exceed the amount of two years' budget." How much should my nonprofit have in its operating reserve? For further information from the Wikimedia Foundation, see this question and answer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Jimbo, that's really useful. It's strange that Orlowski, who is apparently a professional journalist, didn't do the basic fact-finding that would have given him those answers before he started frantically hammering his keyboard. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Just to expound on what Jimbo Wales said, the document he linked shows the 2014-2015 budget to be "$58.5 million in spending, including $8.2 million in spending allocated for grants". The article linked describes $60 million in reserve which is in line with a 12 month reserve, which is common. Rmosler | ● 22:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Whoever said Orlowski was a professional journalist? He appears to come up with his story before he writes it, then cherry-picks or misrepresents facts to support his preferred spin. This is just more of the same. Prioryman (talk) 10:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I meant professional in what I consider the original sense, that is, someone who makes their living by means of full time employment in a particular activity. I did not intend to imply anything about the quality of the work carried out during that employment, nor about any ethical principles underlying the execution of it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

You allege Misplaced Pages runs no adds, but how about 14,000+ advertisement articles you have? How many more are there]? For example User:CorporateM is an openly payed editor who writes good advertisement articles, yet still advertisements, and get paid for writing them.121.40.91.74 (talk) 19:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Example, please? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Has the 5P and our !rules become too static?

When is the last time our !rules have been drastically changed, a !rule scrapped, or it's scope fundamentally enhanced or diminished? Despite having IAR and essays deploring instruction creep, we seem down the road towards more bureaucratic mud and a solidifying and codifying of our policies, guidelines, and important essays into "this is how it's always been done, and so it shall always be!" instead of what I always thought our !rules were intended to be- a statement of "this is how we solved this problem last time, adjust this !rule as new consensus finds new problems need different solutions, and adjust this policy/guideline accordingly to assist in the next time being more efficient". Are we stuck in a mode to which Thomas Jefferson was afraid the USA would find itself in- "some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched". Perhaps we need to do what Jefferson had hoped the USA would do, have a new constitution every so often (more along the lines of modern French history I suppose, minus the whole Nazi collaboration part); in Misplaced Pages perhaps the equivalent would be to open up the main policies in a sandbox to be rewritten from scratch where there wont be those who say "but that's what it has said since 2009!" as an excuse for why some thing can not be changed. But this is just my opinion. I'm sure there will be a lot more. In opposition.Camelbinky (talk) 21:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

What changes in particular are you proposing? I do see a general issue that significant change is extremely difficult because the English Misplaced Pages is governed by consensus rather than by majority, and that consensus is difficult to achieve with as varied as the English Misplaced Pages. Are you proposing anything in particular, or just being abstract?

Is this perhaps a proposal for something along the lines of a Constitutional convention (political meeting)? Honestly, I could and do see some merit to having something like that take place on a fairly regular, if rather lengthy, interval. A little rebellion now and again is a good thing because it tends to make it easier to enact reasonable changes which would be glossed over because of "tradition" or lethargy or whatever you want to call it. Some sort of specific proposal of such a convention might get enough support to make some sort of periodic basic review possible. John Carter (talk) 22:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Last such gathering, if not advertised as such, was in London this last summer. A couple of thousand people participated, that's all. A very large number of RfCs added together, could perhaps count a similar number of participants. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the meeting of the connected, the monied and the grant-worthy faithful. I couldn't attend because of financial constraints, despite living in the country where it was held. That said, I probably would not have attended anyway because I am a sort-of excluded group, being one of the profoundly deaf who cannot hear what is going on, who get next to no transcripts or sign-language facilities etc. I doubt that I missed anything of note but, please, don't let anyone suggest that Wikimania is representative of anything. From all the things I have read, in relation to many such events hosted around the world, it seems to be more of a fan club, a networking facility, an evangelistic meeting etc. I'm sure that it gives much pleasure to many people but let's not over-rate it. (Still not sure if I am allowed on this page or not - please let me know.) - Sitush (talk) 00:33, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I think if we were to have a real "meeting" of sorts to revise policy, the optimum place to do so would be here, online on wikipedia, where the discussion could be recorded in the edits and it would be basically transparent, as opposed to personal meetings which rarely are as transparent. John Carter (talk) 00:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I would support an on-line convention. My upstream post maybe should have been addressed to the owner of this talk page. Because of the near-impossibility of achieving consensus on any significant change, any major change will have to come with the backing of the WMF. The English Misplaced Pages will never make any major changes in its pillars or policies unless it is pushed. I would strongly encourage the WMF to call for an on-line convention, but with the understanding that consensus does not require super-consensus, or some other set of rules that might really be adopted. More later. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Physical meetings aren't the place to accomplish anything of this magnitude. It's a little hard to change anything on WP, the decision-making system (which basically requires super-majorities agreeing to do something specific amidst a mass of sometimes contradictory simultaneous proposals) is very conservative — it preserves the status quo. Change happens slowly and piecemeal. The Village Pump works as well as anything — which is to say: pretty much not at all. I doubt much can be done in the way of fundamental alteration of the WP system. It is what it is. Carrite (talk) 04:25, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I think it could be doable, maybe, if the approach taken were that there would be multiple "rounds" of proposals, probably more than one variant phrasing for each proposal, gathered and then voted on, with the highest-level proposals, probably for the pillars, first, and then for "core policies," and then policies describing specific applications of those policies, etc., etc., etc. If there were to be, for instance, a month or two allocated for each round, with a period of voting at the end of each round, possibly with some sort of ranked voting system and if necessary run-off voting after rounds if required, it might be doable. Having said that, it might also take up to or over a year to accomplish, and there is a real chance that interest would wane before the process were even remotely finished. But, for the comparative minutiae of the lowest-level proposals, even that might not be necessarily a bad thing. John Carter (talk) 15:59, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

On-Line Convention

The original poster, User:Camelbinky, asked when the last time was that our rules have been drastically changed, and whether the five pillars of Misplaced Pages have become too static. In looking over the five pillars, I don't see anything that I would propose be changed. Does the OP propose a change to the five pillars? I can identify several areas where our policies and procedures should be changed, but where we are locked in by the requirement for consensus. The problem is not so much, as the OP implied, that Wikipedians give too much value to how we have done things for several years, so much as that we don't have consensus for what to do differently. Consensus has become a burden. A few areas in which there is dissatisfaction but not consensus include Requests for Adminship (many editors think that the process is toxic, but some think that it has improved, and in any event there is no single consensus proposal for reform), paid commercial editing (some editors think that paid commercial editors should be banned, some think that paid commercial editing should be discouraged and must be disclosed, a few editors think that paid editing is actually a constructive influence), the Arbitration Committee (most editors think that it is too slow, some think that it should be split into subcommittees or meet in panels, some favor some other approach), administrators in general (some think that administrators should serve for a term of years, some think that they should be probationary for one year, et cetera), civility enforcement (some think that it should be stricter, some think that it should be looser, some think that there should be a list of naughty words), and so on. The problem is that we will never get consensus. My first question, for the owner of this talk page, is whether the WMF can intervene, perhaps by calling an on-line convention and specifying that it may change policies by majority rather than consensus. My second question, for the original poster, is whether he or she was proposing anything in particular, or just trying to start a discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Paid editing not incompatible with Misplaced Pages adminship?

Jimbo, in view of the statements you've made on the subject of paid editing, I thought you should be aware of this arbitration request. It seems to me that Arbcom is about to set an unfortunate precedent here. Thanks. ReverendWayne (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

No evidence has been submitted that the user in question is currently or has any plans of engaging in paid editing. So there is no precedent being set other than sanctions not being punitive.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

So, as long as you stop when you get caught, it's all good? ReverendWayne (talk) 16:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

She paid her dues at that time. No double Jeopardy.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:12, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not double jeopardy. She was fired by WMF for paid editing. Whether she should keep her admin status on en-wiki is a separate question. ReverendWayne (talk) 17:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

As you can see from the discussion below, I am not the biggest fan of paid editing in the world. But what I don't understand is why you and another editor have suddenly come out of the blue to latch on to this particular issue. It serves no useful purpose and frankly I don't get it. Coretheapple (talk) 22:42, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Off hand, I'd say that RFarb looks more like a continuation of harassment against an editor than anything else. Resolute 16:10, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:12, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty serious claim, and I ask that you provide diffs or retract it. The filing party has never interacted with Missvain/Sarah before. KonveyorBelt 17:51, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Which begs the question: What is Pudeo doing involving themselves then? As you say, no interaction before. Instead, they just allow an issue to go cold for nearly a year then whip out an RFArb without making even the pretense of discussion or dispute resolution. I won't say that Pudeo's actions fall to the level of bad faith, but I would consider them bad form. I also see an editor in ReverendWayne who has barely edited at all in the past year, was also apparently uninvolved in the original dispute, yet pops out of the woodwork demanding answers, even to the point of forum shopping this thread. A couple of the comments on the RFArb itself are wondering the same thing I am - what purpose, aside from griefing an editor, does this request serve? Resolute 20:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Resolute, I haven't looked at your editing history. I think it's better to engage the substance of an argument than to investigate the person who's making it, but I understand that not everyone shares my view. My interest is in defending Misplaced Pages's administrator accountability policy, which has been weakened by allowing an administrator to ignore valid concerns of the community. Arbitration proceedings do provide a place for uninvolved editors to offer their opinions, and you may have noticed that I expressed similar concerns in the case of User:Fæ, with whom I was likewise uninvolved. I hope this satisfies your curiosity to some extent. ReverendWayne (talk) 23:54, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Paid editors have been required to disclose as much since June; before that there was no rule. ArbCom is ultimately about dispute resolution and rule enforcement, where all disputes are resolved and no rules are being broken, there's not much for them to do. WilyD 18:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Given Misplaced Pages's/WMF's spineless attitude on the subject, I don't think it's very fair to hold an editor or administrator to a standard that does not exist. Outlaw paid editing by administrators, make it retroactive if you want, and then crack down. But right now paid editors in the admin corps can work the gravy train as much as they want, as long as they disclose or exploit the gaping loopholes. Coretheapple (talk) 18:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that it is accurate to characterize the WMF as taking a spineless attitude toward paid editing. The push to tighten the rules on paid editing has come primarily from User:Jimbo Wales, who is a member of the board of the WMF, and also from the WMF board in general. The English Misplaced Pages is what is deeply divided on paid editing, because the English Misplaced Pages community is hamstrung by the mandate to act only on consensus. The ArbCom is bound by policies (and the lack of policies) made by the English Misplaced Pages community. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

It's accurate because paid editing was not banned. Coretheapple (talk) 21:55, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Last year, I was given a 10 pound award by the UK Wikimedia branch for my efforts during a contest on wikisource. I didn't take it and one reason was, at least theoretically, that might in the eyes of some have made me a "paid editor" who might be seen as having some sort of COI regarding editing material related to wikipedia on that basis.

Having said that, I tend to think that if we are to have paid editing, admins are probably the better people to do so. As admins, they tend to get more scrutiny than a lot of others, and they are at least theoretically aware of our policies and guidelines regarding content and might on that basis do work more compliant with other policies and guidelines than most others. Maybe. I don't like it, never have, and never will, but given the pathetic weakness of a lot of our content related to businesses in general, I can't object as much as I might like to otherwise. John Carter (talk) 18:23, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

That would certainly be a straightfoward way of solidifying the image of admins as "super-users" who can get away with murder. Since I hate the doubletalk which holds that admins are just "ordinary users" without special privileges or prerogatives, I wouldn't mind that at all. Coretheapple (talk) 18:28, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I guess you decided to completely overlook part of my statement in your ongoing efforts of evangelization on this topic, particularly regarding the fact that admins in general get more scrutiny than others, in your obvious attempt to keep on the attack regarding this issue in any and all instances. Your own comment seems to be a more straightforward attempt at beating a horse than the comment to which it was referring. John Carter (talk) 18:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah we all know how easy it is to remove administrators. Touche! Coretheapple (talk) 18:41, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I notice that by your statement above the only response you would even consider remotely acceptable would be removing their administrator status. You apparently consider that more important than verifying the content, or apparently anything else. Are you really interested in supervising any possible content which might have been done by a paid editor, or simply trying to play "gotcha" to those individuals who have been alleged to have done so? John Carter (talk) 18:55, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Look, if you want to give all administrators a ticket on the gravy train, I don't want to discourage you. It may not do Misplaced Pages's reputation any good, or help fund raising very much, but that's no concern of mine. More power to you, and have a nice day. Coretheapple (talk) 21:52, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship#Desysopping proposal - and of course, if it takes off, feel free to run me through it. ;) WilyD 18:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

From WP:ADMINACCT: "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions, and to justify them when needed." That's the rule that's being broken here. Isn't paid editing by an administrator, even if it's not explicitly prohibited, a legitimate concern of the community? Administrators don't have the option to stonewall for a few months and let the whole thing blow over. And as reading the admin accountability policy ought to make clear, it does not apply only to misuse of admin tools. ReverendWayne (talk) 18:43, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

You do not seem to believe that there may have been some degree of off-wiki discussion on this topic, nor that at least one person whom I know to be no true "fan" of wikipedia, Carrite, has said in his lengthy review of the matter he could find little if any evidence. In some cases, it might be more reasonable for some discussions involving privacy concerns to take place off-wiki. That may well have been done here. To the degree that some of the comments involved seem to be implying that any accusation must be treated as being factually accurate, and I'm not sure that is necessarily a reasonable conclusion in this or any matters of this type, I can say this seems to me to be perhaps less interest in solving a problem than perhaps finding a handy scapegoat to make some people feel happy or fulfilled. I would actually prefer trying to achieve the former myself. John Carter (talk) 19:00, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Prior to the most recent Arbcom decision I'd suggest to take it there, now, I'd say 'Why is everyone such a c*nt' on such issues?' AnonNep (talk) 22:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

The request has been declined, but I made this statement right before in case anyone wants to investigate further.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)