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I don't think this article stays on topic. The Crimean Karaites are Karaite Jews who began to distinguish themselves from their Jewish past for the first time during the Russian Empire in order to escape discriminatory laws. OK fine, so then why go on about the Khazars? That is an idea they stole from the Krymchaks. Furthermore there is no genetic relationship between Crimean Karaites and the sect of Ananite Lithuanian Tatars who call themselves Karaylar. Even their languages are significantly different. Crimean Karaim is a dialect of Krymchak, and Lithuanian Karaim is a dialect of Lithuanian Tatar. Of course the Crimean Karaites (thanks to the influence of Count Nikolay Zubov) managed to gain control over the Lithuanian Karaylar. Apart from the Lithuanian Karaite Legend there is not even any proof that there were any Karaylar in Crimea before 1790. Suddenly Russia takes over and suddenly the Crimean Karaites appear saying that they are different from other Karaite Jews in the Ottoman Empire and saying they are related to the Lithuanian Karaylar. I would like to challenge the authors of this article to produce any indisputable evidence of the existence of Crimean Karaites prior to the 1790s. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:27, 19 November 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:''First written evidence about Crimean Karaites'' is from ]'s ] description ( XV century) see his "The bondage and travels of Johann Schiltberger, a native of Bavaria, in Europe, Asia, and Africa, 1396-1427",cited in "A. Harkavy, Altjudische Denkmaler aus der Krim, mitgetheilt von Abraham Firkowitsch, SPb., 1876 "and many Russian sources.
:You mislead the important point that ''Ananite Lithuanian Tatars'' claim their Crimean origin.So they also considered in English as Crimean Karaites . They have no language of spoken Polish ] but the language similar to Volin and Halicia Karaims language spoken by ]. The last one migrated to Crimea at 19 century and became the leader of Karaites in Crimea. So the claiming that Crimean Karaites gained control over the Lithuanian Karaylar is poblematic .The ] test actually finds difference between Karaites in Crimea and Lithuania,but also find similarity between Lithuanian and Egypt Karaites(Fried, K., Landau, J., Cohen, T., and Goldschmidt, E. (1968). Some genetic polymorphic characters of the Karaite community. Harefuiah, 75, 507-509.). Tatars in Egypt ? Was ] Tatar ? I have searched for expression ''Ananite Lithuanian Tatars'' in the web and did not find anything -what is your source of this claim ?
:Also claim that ] (self name Srel balalary - literally "Children of Israel )had belief in descent from the Khazars is unreferenced and contradicts the article about Krymchaks and need to be removed. Actually the belief of Khazars origin was adopted by some Krymchaks only in XX century due to Karaim Influence.] (]) 19:55, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
== Re-Write ==
== Re-Write ==
Revision as of 00:35, 11 December 2014
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Re-Write
The article needs a complete re-write. The lead in itself is very problematic. No references. Since the talk and edit histories expose a great deal of politics concerning this article (which is now polluting the internet whenever one searches for info on Crimean Karaites, so now I'm here) I suggest it be stripped down to bare bones and not a single line be inserted without reference to the source of the opinion. For the lead something based around the following from ;Tiryaki, Victor & Mireyev, Vadim (2006) Complex of Karaite Kenassas in Eupatoria and Other Kenassas Around the World:
"Crimean Karaites are one of the smallest Turkic nations in the world. In these days only several Hundreds of them still live in Crimea, their historical homeland, and there are about 1100 Karaite people in Ukraine in the whole." (p.2)
"Up to the end of the 18th century, Juft-Qale was the largest administrative, cultural, and religious center of the Crimean Karaites." (p.4)
"Loss of native language gives little chance for the ethnic future of the Crimean Karaites as a genuine nation. However, even now the center of spiritual ans cultural life of the Crimean Karaites remains a complex of Kenassas in Eupatoria." (p.5)
Could you be more specific? What is problematic in the lead for your opinion? According the lead, Karaim(like Tiryaki) define themselves originally centered in Crimea; and derived from Turkic-speaking Karaites. As you may see your cite renews nothing, but it is possible to add it as additional reference. Why do you want to rewrite completely?
"Could you be more specific?" Yes, there is not a single reference mentioning "Crimean Karaites". And who is "Tiryaki"? Could you provide an English language reference please? Also the grammar is terrible throughout the article. It clearly has not been written by a native English speaker. I see you are the principle editor for the past year or so. Your contributions are welcome but there is much about wiki style you could learn. Finally, I am sorry, in your last question above your English grammar is not very easily comprehensible so I can not answer it. I gather you are trying to make some point about common opinion and Trakai and Crimean Karaites, but again I think it would really help if you could bring an English language reference to illustrate what you are trying to say. Let's go from there. F.Tromble (talk) 11:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
I think that the "Crimean Karaites" name mislead you. You are not the first. The intention is to Karaims including the Lithuanian Karaims -see the lead. I did not choose the article name.It is the misleading but common name in English for this ethnic group as decided in this talk(see archived versions), due to the reasons explained in the article lead. There are 46 references in this article including many English sources-e.g Tatiana Schegoleva. Karaites of Crimea: History and Present-Day Situation in Community
My English realy is far from to be perfect. But 99% sources about the Karaims are not in English. Actually the modern Karaims Mother language is not Karaims but Russian- even in Trakai. So the understanding of Russian language for this article contributions is as important as English. You invited to use automatic tools, to ask questions and I will try to find a proper English source when it possible. And of course, the improvement of the article language is very very important and I really need help here. Your conribution is very invited.Неполканов (talk) 12:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
If the article name is misleading, then it needs to e re-named even if it is common, there are rules about misleading names on Misplaced Pages. If it is about Karaims in general rather than Crimean Karaims specifically then it should be re-named simply as Karaims. Or you should start a second article about Karaims and if you can prove that Crimean Karaites are indeed a branch of Karaims rather than Karaite Jews, then you can have this article merged into a section on the new article (but be prepared that it might better be merged into an article about Karaite Jews in general rather than an article about your "Karaims". Are Crimean Karaites really notable enough to deserve such a long article of their own? These are all important Questions which need to be considered in order to get this article ship-shape. Either way, without the proper name in the first instance, writing an appropriately referenced intro would be problematic. Whatever sources are used for the intro must use the same name that the article uses. But I see there is a lock on the page so it can not be re-named "Karaims", therefore the intro must be about Crimean Karaites and not Karaims in general. Unless you would like to approach an administrator to unlock the page? As it stands right now though, you are telling me that the article you are writing is about a slightly broader topic than the name implies, and this is not the way things should be on[REDACTED] or in any encyclopaedic entry. However the fact the page has been locked indicates that there has been some controversy about the name and your opinion seems to have been on the losing side.
Thank you for the very important info about Tiryaki, unfortunately Misplaced Pages can not be used as a source. It would be good to find something in English about him if you can as he would deserve a mention in the article.
It is important to use as many English sources as possible on English wiki and restrict the number of foreign language sources. This is because not many people can read other languages and can not verify the sources for themselves and it can lead to edit wars.
I would like to contribute to the article, but it would need to be completely re-written and is in a totally different style. My style would be to put references in every paragraph. And if the article is called Crimean Karaites, then these references must be restricted specifically to be about Crimean Karaites.
What would you like to move things forward do now? Start a new petition to rename the page (you might lose again)? Or trim it down? F.Tromble (talk) 10:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
To prevent mislead I suggest you to learn the subject/to read the article. You can read there that their origin is a matter of great controversy. The[REDACTED] is not a place to prove controversaries, but to present all opinions. Karaims is also problematic name.Please look at its article to learn the issue. Russian word "Karaim" means "Karaite"(as in Hebrew). Claiming for their Crimean origin and in order to distance themselves from being identified as Karaite Jews,they call themselves караимы-тюрки,or крымские караимы(Karaite Turks or Crimean Karaites). While first name claiming their Turks origin does not reflect the other POVs, it was decided after long debates to use the second name. The lead explains the matter to minimize mislead. Неполканов (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
