Revision as of 00:44, 16 December 2014

Skip to open disputes skip to newest thread (purge cache)

• WP:DRN
• WP:DR/N

This is an informal place to resolve content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Misplaced Pages. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Misplaced Pages policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page. This may also apply to some groups.

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 21:46, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Archived DRN Cases

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250 251, 252

This page has archives. Sections may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present.

Current disputes

Talk:Operation Zarb-e-Azb

With only two of the participants offering to take part, and both seem to be on the same side, DRN will unfortunately be little or no use in this situation. However, this close is without prejudice to being restarted at a later date, to give people another opportunity to participate. If either of the two who have not commented here wish to take part, drop me a note and I will reopen. --Mdann52talk to me! 11:13, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Himarë#Regarding the removal of the established consensual text in the lead

The case appears to have been abandoned by both the DRN volunteer and the participants. Therefore I'm closing this case. — Keithbob • Talk • 21:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Antonioptg (talk · contribs)
• USchick (talk · contribs)
• Herzen (talk · contribs)
• Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs)
• Arnoutf (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

As you can see on https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&diff=636513426&oldid=636512265, the dispute consist in: 1) Deletion of the words "in what the New York Magazine called Russia's Conspiracy Theory" in the sentence "According to the Russian military, in what the New York Magazine called Russia's Conspiracy Theory, MH17 was shot down by the Ukrainians, using either a surface to air missile or a fighter plane." 2) Addition of the following text: "On October 28 the Dutch government, in a letter to parliament, stated that only two options are examined by the Public Prosecutor: "An attack from the ground or an attack from the air". The letter also stated that evidence seem to support the conclusion that the plane was shot down with a rocket, but that can not yet be said with certainty". 3) Addition of the following text: "According to a press release on behalf of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Ukraine and Eurojust on August 7 the four countries signed a secret treaty that includes a non-disclosure agreement under which the signatories remain in control of the information that they themselves contribute, so they can veto the disclosure of their own data, and retain the right to keep secret the results of investigations. The press release came just before the Dutch government had to answer parliamentary questions on the issue. Malaysia did not sign the treaty and was the last to join the JIT, being accepted as a full member in late November". With respect to the first point, giving the Russian version of the facts inserting it in the negative definition given by a American newspaper is highly POV. With respect to the second and the third point, the content is based on reliable sources, is relevant and gave rise to parliamentary questions in the Dutch Parliament and official statements by Dutch government. It has been rejected as "conspiracy mongering" or "not relevant"

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

talk page

How do you think we can help?

I hope you can give an authoritative opinion so as to induce User Volunteer Marek to review his position allowing users who see the matter from a different perspective to edit the article, considering that, as indicated on "Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus", an Anglo-American point of view of the facts, or a Western one, is contrary to NPOV "especially when dealing with articles that require an international perspective".

Summary of dispute by USchick

International sources report more broadly about the crash that Western sources. Western sources are considered reliable. Russian sources have been discounted as state owned and therefore, unreliable. There are several discussions in the archived talk pages about Asian and German sources. It's not clear to me why those sources have been discounted as unreliable. The Western version of events is presented in the article, and any other version, even when presented in reliable sources is dismissed as Undue. USchick (talk) 16:49, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Herzen

The downing of MH17 is a developing news story which to date has had four phases: (1) initial reports of the downing; (2) reports by news media before any actual official investigations were done, based on unsubstantiated claims made by various governments and international agencies, what had appeared on social media, and on witness accounts, often not backed up by any photographic or video evidence; (3) release of the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) preliminary report; (4) the focus of news coverage switching to the criminal investigation led by the Netherlands, with the participation of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT).

The article as it currently stands has two main problems. (I) The bulk of the article consists of material concerning (2). The material from (2) consists essentially of nothing more than hearsay and speculation. It was fine for the article to have covered such material before the results of any investigations were released, but since the DSB report was released, most of the material relating to (2) became undue. Yet this material remains the bulk of the article. (II) There are two official investigations into the MH17 crash: the DSB (technical) investigation, and the JIT criminal investigation. Many reliable sources have reported how the DSB investigation has influenced the criminal investigation. The DSB investigation has led the criminal investigation to narrow the possible scenarios of how MH17 crashed from four to two. (This is point 2 from the Dispute Overview.) Since the downing of MH17 was a criminal act, the focus of this article, when it comes to narratives about what happened, should concern the criminal investigation. Yet getting into and keeping in the article the fact that the criminal investigation has two working theories, not just one, for more than a few days has proven impossible, because some editors brazenly violate Misplaced Pages's Second Pillar: even though the criminal investigation is considering two theories, some editors believe that they already know the truth, so they feel that any mention of the fact that investigators are considering a second theory must be suppressed. – Herzen (talk) 12:58, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Guy Macon brought up the "do not talk about other editors" rule. Above, I noted that "some editors" act as if they know the truth. I believe that that comment does not break this rule, since the claim that "some editors" act as if they know the truth is not a comment about particular editors, but rather a reference to the systemic bias that is at the root of this content dispute. If my talk of "some editors" is unacceptable, I will try to rephrase. – Herzen (talk) 13:19, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Volunteer Marek

Specifics:

1. I'm still considering whether the words "in what the New York Magazine called Russia's Conspiracy Theory" should be included in the article or not. But that's about whether this particle source should be used as an example of how a certain view is described or should we rather say something like "Various sources have described the Russian government version as a "Conspiracy Theory"". There's plenty of reliable sources for that: , , , (could throw the word 'bizarre' in there too)

2. The text starting with "Addition of the following text:...". The problem here is that this is cherry-picking from the source in order to push a POV. The source basically says that while two possibilities were examined they are NOT considered equally likely. The "shot down by a rocket" is the one that the report considers the most probable.

3. The secret agreement stuff. Conspiracy mongering nonsense, which originally appeared on the conspiracy website globalresearch, which some of the users here have tried to insist is a reliable source. It's not, it's complete and utter junk. The reliable sources mention it in passing and don't make a conspiracy out of it. WP:UNDUE with a side of WP:POV.

Generals:

2. The current article is pretty NPOV and by Misplaced Pages's standards of current event articles is actually pretty good. It is NPOV and pretty good exactly because unreliable conspiracy sources and junk info have been kept out of the article. This DRN request, the latest in something like two dozen instances of WP:FORUMSHOPPING across multiple boards (AN/I, RSN, AN, 3RR etc. etc.) is exactly a bad-faithed attempt at POVing the article, not vice versa. We don't use junk conspiracy sources, consensus is and has been against including this stuff. Russian government/media view *is* in fact noted in the article, maybe even with too much WP:WEIGHT already.

Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:04, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Arnoutf

MH17 page has been plagued by bickering from day 1. The summary of the conflict in my view is that criticism on the Russian position is construed as unrealistic hatred of Russia by those defending Russia, while criticism on Western sources is perceived as vindication of the Russian position by those same editors. In addition several editors demand that the point of view of all Western countries are counted together as a single opinion and contrasted against the Russian opinion. The downing of MH17 resulted in casualties of seven different "western" countries and no Russian casualty; so I really cannot see why the Russian point of view would be more important than even a single of these 7 stricken countries. That is not a pro-Western bias, that is relevance. This is the more interesting as there is no single Russian position (only a broad range of accusations and possible alternatives). This whole thing is further complicated since the powers that may know more have not given full insight into their information - although this would probably involve public disclosure of top secret intelligence information about military and satellite deployment.

These kind of sentiments unsurprisingly underlies the current discussion and in fact most on that talk page; and unless a number of editors start accepting the idea that Russia may have been involved; or other editors accept that Russian sources are worth as much as the combined Western sources this is not going to change.

Arnoutf (talk) 09:25, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Saint Aviator

HI. Macon thank you for your time in this dispute resolution. I have been involved and tried to focus on what makes WP an encyclopedia. MH17 is not a good example of an encyclopaedic article. There is a tug of war which has more numbers on the Pro West version side, which seems to be able to attract at key moments, another voice or two. However I believe the so called Pro Russian side is not Pro Russian but instead wants a more neutral, wider view. This stance is more encyclopaedic. I have trouble understanding why a more encyclopaedic NPOV article is being resisted by deleting content that gives the reader a bigger picture. This article is not the MH17 crash investigation and it should not be written in a way that insinuates Russia was involved in shooting down MH17. Thank you. SaintAviator lets talk 23:28, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Stickee

I'll likely have my summary up tomorrow. Stickee (talk) 11:07, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 64.253.142.26

I have monitored this article's talk page regularly and occasionally commented on topics such as is arising in this dispute. I have had the privilege of reviewing the Summaries prepared Volunteer Marek and Arnoutf. I adopt their summaries. Best Regards --64.253.142.26 (talk) 17:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment by My very best wishes

There is no such thing as "pro-Russian view". I think main question here (and on many other pages) is this: would we like to exclude conspiracy theorists and well-known propaganda outlets, such as RT (TV network), from the list of sources we are using, except in articles about the propaganda outlets themselves? Yes, we must exclude them - per policy, rather than be looking for a middle ground between them. Doing so is contrary to WP:NPOV. Vladimir Bukovsky once noted the middle ground between the Big Lie of Soviet propaganda and the truth is a lie, and one should not be looking for a middle ground between disinformation and information. My very best wishes (talk) 20:28, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I was asked a question related to this discussion . Well, it can be easily sourced that the current level of intentional disinformation in Russian state-dependent media exceeds old Soviet times, and I believe this is one of the reasons we are having this conversation right now. My very best wishes (talk) 14:53, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 discussion 01

Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Misplaced Pages Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for everyone to make their statements before opening this up for discussion. in the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to review our Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution and Misplaced Pages:Consensus pages. Thanks! There is one thing that I need everyone involved to understand right from the start; DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know and we can discuss whether I should turn the case over to another dispute resolution volunteer. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:06, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

A quick procedural note (I am not opening this up for discussion yet -- still waiting on a few editors to weigh in); Some of you may have noticed that I collapsed part of your comment like this:

As you can see, I am serious about our "do not talk about other editors" rule. DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors. I am allowing more general comments that only touch on user behavior without naming anyone, but I will shut those down as well if they become a problem.

You are free to remove the collapsed material and replace it with something that discusses article content, as you are free to edit your initial comment in any other way.

I am working on reading all the talk page archives and as much of all your user talk page histories as possible, but it is a lot of material, so please give me some time. I had no idea that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 existed until I took this DRN case.

If there are any relevant discussions elsewhere (other pages, arbcom, ANI, etc) that I should read, please drop me a note on my talk page. That would also be an appropriate place to discuss procedural questions. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 00:28, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 discussion 02

I am now opening this up for discussion. I assume that everyone is on board with our "Please discuss article content, never user conduct and do not talk about other editors" policy. I am going to ask that you all try something else that gets us away from the problems with the talk page discussions that resulted in no agreement: try to keep it short, keep it simple, and avoid either walls of text or long rapid back-and-forth discussions. Consider this a polite request, not a hard and fast rule.

Let me throw out an idea as a starting point, keeping in mind that I know less about this topic than anyone else here; how about a series of sections with names like "claims by Russian sources", "claims by Ukrainian sources", "claims by US sources", etc.? (it doesn't have to be spit up that way - maybe "claims by official sources" and "claims by journalistic sources" would be better, or some other way of splitting things up that I haven't though of.) We could just report what they claim without any editorializing or commentary, and if there are sources for it, add a "reaction by X" section where we can put any rebuttals. I am not pushing this as being "the answer" but it might be worth discussing. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:38, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment from uninvolved user; @Guy Macon; It may help for someone to ping all of the involved editors after the unscheduled interim break of several days. Note to @USchick, in answer to your off page question on this dispute, yes, as the originator of the rfc you may self-close using the standard template and indicate that you are deferring to the Dispute resolution noticeboard currently underway here. It is normally up to the editors involved to ping the other participants that this dispute has been restarted. Note to Antonioptg (talk · contribs), USchick (talk · contribs), Herzen (talk · contribs), Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs), Arnoutf (talk · contribs). Users should reply if they are planning to participate here following the new opening by @Guy Macon as of yesterday. FelixRosch (TALK) 19:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment Re Guy Macon. We have considered something like this. The problem is that creating a "claims by X sources" creates another POV fork altogether.

If you look at the different countries - The US is not directly involved; and Russia (officially) claims not to be directly involved either.

So one neutral point of view would be to list in order of involvement Ukrainian sources (their country), Malaysian sources (their plane), Dutch sources (most casualties and starting place of flight), Australian sources (next in line for casualties), Indonesian sources, UK sources, German, Belgium Philippine New Zealand Canadian sources (all suffered casualties, all are therefore directly involved). And only then Russian and US sources (not directly involved). However that would blow up such sections out of all proportion.

Also you second suggestion, to separately list official responses and journalistic responses is not very easy. There are in fact very few official responses. For journalistic responses we should only allow reliable outlets. For example Mad (magazine) should not be used as a reliable source. In addition, a reliable media outlet should be free to gather and report news. This opens up another can of worms as there are serious doubts about the current freedom of the press in Russia. For that reason many editors are very hesitant to accept any major Russian source as reliable. Arnoutf (talk) 19:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I would support listing opinions in order of involvement, and uninvolved countries wouldn't necessarily have an opinion. USchick (talk) 00:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Kings of Judah#Synchronism material on the last kings of Judah vs. kings of Babylon

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Kings of Judah#Synchronism material on the last kings of Judah vs. kings of Babylon (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Apologist en (talk · contribs)
• John Belushi (talk · contribs)
• JudeccaXIII (talk · contribs)
• Jeffro77 (talk · contribs)
• Lisa (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute is about the diagram presenting synchronisms of the last kings of Judah with Neo-Babylonian rulers. The link was removed from Kings_of_Judah#Synchronism_to_fall_of_Judah as supposedly representing "original research" as defined by Misplaced Pages.

User:John Belushi who was the first to remove the diagram from the article on 2014.11.19 refused to substantiate his allegations and only repeated (in Polish, by the way) that the diagram constituted "original research". Later that user did not participate in the discussion on Talk:Kings_of_Judah#Synchronism_material_on_the_last_kings_of_Judah_vs._kings_of_Babylon. As User:John Belushi did not explain why he thought my work was "original research" I added a link to the diagram in the Kings of Judah article once again on 2014.11.20.

Soon afterwareds another user User:JudeccaXIII removed the link from the article claiming (just as User:John Belushi before) that it constituted "original research" and encouraged me to start a discussion at the article's Talk page. I followed his advice and started the discussion. User:John Belushi did not participate in the discussion until today (2014.12.07).

Clarifying: Editor John Belushi hasn't been involved in the discussion yet. Editor Apologist en is most likely referring to my first response in the discussion here: — JudeccaXIII (talk) 22:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

The person who participated in the discussion most was User:Jeffro77. He encouraged me to supply reliable sources for the information shown in the diagram and "at the very least" present those sources at the file information page. I did that "very least" thing and provided reliable sources for all synchronisms and juxtapositions found in the diagram.

Finally, User:Lisa suggested that still a single comparison in the diagram was likely "original research" - the file was modified to comply with the suggestion.

After that no one has been able to show what information in the diagram lacked reliable sources or what new thesis was being introduced by me in the diagram.

However, there still seems to be no consensus.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I invided users User:StAnselm (who seems to have contributed quite a lot to the contents of Kings of Judah) and User:Leszek Jańczuk (who seems friendly towards User:John Belushi and is one of the top Misplaced Pages contributors) to join the discussion, but so far neither of them has taken part in it.

How do you think we can help?

Decide whether or not the diagram (along with the sources provided at the file information page) constitutes an original research as defined by Misplaced Pages. If it is "original research" I want to learn:

• what are the elements of the diagram "for which no reliable, published sources exist"
• where in the diagram can you find "synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources"
• is there anything I can do about this diagram to be acceptable here?

Summary of dispute by John Belushi

Summary of dispute by JudeccaXIII

Pretty much what I had to say here: . The diagram has no source for dates other than...uh?...biblical versus? to determine dates of reigns, battles, exile etc. Even with a source, the source itself would just be a POV. Dates of events will always be debated, and if this diagram is implemented, who know what editor will change other dates of other articles. Its just too risky to place in Misplaced Pages articles. This digram is in violation of WP:OR & WP:NPOV. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 23:05, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Jeffro77

I have nothing further to add that isn't already at Talk:Kings_of_Judah#Synchronism_material_on_the_last_kings_of_Judah_vs._kings_of_Babylon. I have informed the editor about the requirement for sources, and policies regarding original research. I have also informed him that my own views about what he would need to do "at the very least" do not constitute consensus for the inclusion of his work.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Lisa

I've tried explaining how his creative work is inappropriate for Misplaced Pages, pointing him to various applicable policies, primarily WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. I clearly lack the ability to communicate this to him in a way he'll understand. That's my shortcoming. I hope someone else succeeds. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 03:53, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Kings of_Judah#Synchronism_material_on_the_last_kings_of_Judah_vs._kings_of_Babylon discussion

@Apologist en, @Jeffro77, @Lisa; Drop in comment from Interwiki Wikiprojects; My familiarity with this page is after reading both the Russian and the Ukrainian versions of this page. If both sides are willing to follow strict adherence of WP:MoS and WP:DIAGRAM then this editor is prepared to start mediation provided that the disputing parties agree to follow strict adherence to WP:MoS and WP:DIAGRAM by signing their posts below. FelixRosch (TALK) 16:42, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

If both sides are willing to follow strict adherence of WP:MoS and WP:DIAGRAM - User:Jeffro77, User:Lisa, User:JudeccaXIII or User:John Belushi don't have to adhere to either WP:MoS or WP:DIAGRAM as it is me only who is trying to place a link to the diagram on the page. But yes, I'm willing to modify the diagram to be fully compliant with Misplaced Pages's guidelines and I want to follow strict adherence to WP:DIAGRAM. However, first, before we discuss the diagram in the view of WP:DIAGRAM I would like the mediator to focus on what has been the main allegation against the diagram, i.e. "original research" and I want to hear clear, precise and direct answers to the simple questions I asked. So, if we first deal with what was required in the How do you think we can help? section then yes, I am willing to go in for such a mediation process. Apologist en (talk) 19:54, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I had not previously considered WP:DIAGRAM. This diagram may fail the third criterion, Their style and density of information are chosen to appeal to a general reader.--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:DIAGRAM is not a Misplaced Pages policy but an obsolete ideal or policy that failed consensus per WP:HISTORICAL. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 02:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the principle is still worthy of consideration.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:52, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I think part of the issue is that the subject of biblical chronology is a matter of a lot of debate, and this diagram doesn't take any of that into account. For example, his notes on accession year and non-accession year dating. Yes, Thiele opines one way. But his is not the only view. The same applies for most of what he has there. In the body of an article, you can say, "Thiele holds this way and Tadmor holds that way" (for example; I don't recall Tadmor's view off the top of my head). But in an already overbusy graphic, it simply isn't possible. There is no way to create a graphic presentation of the final days of Judah without taking positions in scholarly debates, and that's just not what Misplaced Pages is for. His choice of position constitutes original research, and his combination of disparate sources constitutes synthesis. This really shouldn't even be an issue. It's only been made one by Apologist_en's fundamental misunderstanding of what Misplaced Pages is. It is not a place to showcase one person's views in writing or in graphic form. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 15:04, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

@Lisa, I completely agree with. The fact is, its just too risky to just place a date for a king's reign, battle etc. without some opposing debate. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 15:12, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

• There is no way to create a graphic presentation of the final days of Judah without taking positions in scholarly debates - well, here she is most likely right.
• , and that's just not what Misplaced Pages is for. His choice of position constitutes original research - and here she is definitely wrong. Misplaced Pages's policy goes like this (Neutral point of view): It is not the responsibility of any one editor to research all points of view. But when incorporating research into an article, it is important that editors provide context for this point of view, by indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority. - I may research just one point of view and present it as either text, diagram or image. If other editors find that other points of view are not included they can create a proper context for my research stating that it is held by either a majority or minority of scholars or that it is just one of many possible interpretations. Consider the following files used on some pages related to ancient Israel:

• Genealogy... used on Kings of Judah,
• Israelites... used on History of ancient Israel and Judah and Jewish history,
• David's kingdom... used on Land of Israel,
• 12 Tribes... used on Tribe of Judah
• or just any graphics included on Shemot_(parsha).

Do they represent multiple points of view (which definitely exist in each of the above mentioned issues) or do they reflect a choice of position? Was Solomon a historical figure? Where do Israelites come from? Was there such a thing as David's kingodm? 12 tribes and the territories supposedly occypied by them? Moses or Hebrews in Egypt? I can assure you that a huge percentage of (if not most) graphics on Misplaced Pages, esp. those dealing with human history or any history at all, present just one point of view (usually due to the limitation mentioned by her). That's perfectly OK with Misplaced Pages's policy as it is up to authors or other editors to place all those research works in a proper context on those pages which link to such files.

• his combination of disparate sources constitutes synthesis - and here she is wrong again. Misplaced Pages's policy does not say anything against combining various (and even disparate) sources except when it is to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. All scholars disagree with one another on a number issues. Each of them presents a slightly different version of history. To meet her requirement one has to support his work with publications by a single scholar as otherwise they are bound to combine more or less disparate sources - which is really absurd. Moreover, the word disparate is fairly inadequate in the case of my diagram. What is this difference of opinions which in her words makes those sources "disparate"? Everything revolves around the 1st of Nisan 597BC and whether Jehoiachin went to his exile a few days before the new year (which suggests the usage of the non-accession year system by the kings of Judah and the destruction of Jerusalem in 587BC) or a few days after the new year (which allows the usage of the accession year system and the fall of Jerusalem in 586BC). Otherwise, all the sources I drew on are farily unanimous in their presentation of some key events which I placed on the timeline (except for those where I put a question mark). We are talking about +/- 1 year difference (at most) in various interpretations of the events from the diagram and not about +/- 100 years we'd have to discuss when trying to date the eruption of Thera and its impact on the Egyptian chronology.

Apologist en (talk) 22:08, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en I'm not concerned about older discussions as you're supposed to be focusing on your own work as of right now per WP:LISTEN. I'm going to stick with my decision, no to the diagram per WP:OR because of debatable dates and timeline issues. Even with a source, the source is just a POV which will just cause a constant issue with WP:BALANCE. If you want more details on my decision, just read my summary of dispute. Also, let me remind you that WP:DIAGRAM is not policy, but an ideal or former policy that failed consensus per WP:HISTORICAL. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Current summary of dispute for mediation

Both editors, @Apologist en and @Jeffro77, have indicated that they are prepared to initiate the mediation process with strict application of WP:MoS. At this point it would be useful for @Apologist en to provide a list of the Kings which are being disputed and only of the Kings which are being disputed from the Diagram directly below. @Lisa and @JudeccaXIII, my request was for all participating editors here to acknowledge that strict WP:MoS shall be applied, with my shorthand reference to old WP:DIAGRAM which was meant to refer to the full list of the current WP:PERTINENCE + WP:IRELEV + WP:MOSIM, all of which will be applied. If you have concerns on any of these then this is the time to indicate it, otherwise participants in this discussion are asked to affirm that they agree that strict WP:MoS shall be applied throughout this discussion. To all editors, unless there is a response within the next 24 hours to providing the list of Kings being disputed, then this dispute may be seen as stale and may be archived on this basis. FelixRosch (TALK) 15:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I am willing to make any changes to my diagram to make it fully compliant with current Misplaced Pages's guidelines. It is hard for me to provide a list of the kings which are being disputed, because other editors have mostly used very general statements and avoided any direct answers to my questions. But judging by other editors comments here is the list of the Kings which are being disputed and only of the Kings which are being disputed from the Diagram:

• Josiah - challenged by User:Lisa on 3 December 2014

Apologist en (talk) 16:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I have not at any point stated that any of the content of the chart is necessarily incorrect (I did suggest a couple of very minor semantic fixes of his first version, but these did not relate to the historical content), although I concur with other editors that the information is debated in various secular sources. I have already explained the minimum requirements for Apologist en to provide sources for the chart. Since the editor followed that advice and provided sources at the image's information page, I have not debated the content (though I agree there are valid concerns), but I have instead explained to him that inclusion will be by consensus rather than being up to me. User:Apologist en has ignored these facts, and has instead—at the article's Talk page—opted to make an invalid comparison with an image I updated in 2011 (for which no conflicting sources exist).--Jeffro77 (talk) 17:23, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en; While awaiting comments and responses to my note above from the other editors, your chart covers 610BC-560BC, and your list of only "Josiah" appears incomplete. This needs to be a complete list of the kings which you wish to discuss in order for this mediation to be complete, and the other kings names should be added at this time. FelixRosch (TALK) 17:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

OK. Here is the list of kings included in my diagram:

• kings of Judah: Josiah, Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin, Zedekiah;
• kings of Babylon: Nabopolassar, Nebuchadnezzar, Amel-Marduk, Nergal-sharezer.

Apologist en (talk) 17:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en and @Jeffro77; Yes, that is the list and @Jeffro77 has indicated that the dates need to be added here which you are associated for each of the kings from Judah and Babylon. Could you add the dates as you would like to defend them here based on your data. (You can date them in parenthesis next to each king's name.) FelixRosch (TALK) 17:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

If you're going to make the chart with a source, the source should be from a reliable/already made diagram from major universities such as Cambridge, Oxford, Hartford etc with approval of copyright grounds if any. @Apologist en, stick with the topic per WP:LISTEN meaning also to stay on DNR instead of going back to Talk:Kings of Judah to make this reply: . Also @FelixRosch, this case can not be close/archive because this case has not yet been opened by the head administrator or administrators in charge of maintaining DNR. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@FelixRosch; Here you are:

• Josiah (? - 609 BC)
• Jehoahaz (609 BC)
• Jehoiakim (609 BC - 598 BC)
• Jehoiachin (598 BC - 597 BC)
• Zedekiah (597 BC - 587 BC)
• Nabopolassar (? - 605 BC)
• Nebuchadnezzar (605 BC - 562 BC)
• Amel-Marduk (562 BC - 560 BC)
• Nergal-sharezer (560 BC - ?)

@JudeccaXIII; If you're going to make the chart with a source, the source should be from a reliable/already made diagram from major universities such as Cambridge, Oxford, Hartford etc with approval of copyright grounds if any - I am really at a loss for words... Maybe you should write a new WP:OR policy or at least a section on creating diagrams? Think about it.

Apologist en (talk) 18:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Apologist en Then please do clarify, what is your source for this unproved diagram. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 18:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@JudeccaXIII. Go to the file information page. Scroll down till you see "Sources". The diagram is not based on a single source. It is based on multiple reliable secondary sources - i.e. it is a synthesis. This synthesis is not used to promote any new thesis. My research does not produce new knowledge but rather presents the existing knowledge in a new form (Research#Original_research). Apologist en (talk) 18:37, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Apologist enI'm willing to work with that...multiple sources if even better — JudeccaXIII (talk) 18:40, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Adminstrative side note: Since DRN volunteer FelixRosch is currently leading a discussion and appears to have opened the case, I've marked the case as 'open'. If this is incorrect then please let me know. Cheers! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@Keithbob; My confirmation of acknowledgment by @Apologist en and @Jeffro77. Note to @JudeccaXIII; Your last comment appears to be moving towards the edit presented for this dispute; if you are requested further specific sources then this is likely a good time to put them forward while we are waiting for the other editors to offer their views. Note to @Apologist en; While we await the other editors, you might want to double check if your facts are in full agreement with the Genealogy chart at the start of the article page itself, as well as if it is in full agreement with the formatted Table of listed kings in the opening section of the page. Also, you should indicate if you are planning to alter any of the data in that existing Genealogy chart or the formatted Table of listed kings already in the article. FelixRosch (TALK) 19:58, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@FelixRosch: I believe that the formatted Table of listed kings in the opening section of the page contains incomplete information as far as king Jehoiachin is concerned: it currently reads 598 (BC) within the Thiele column while it should read: 598-597 (BC). It is definitely true for the 1970 edition of his work. Moreover, more recently a number of notable scholars (e.g. Ernst Kutsch or John Bright) have opted for Zedekiah's reign as having been 597-587 BC while adopting Thiele's dates for other rulers which is not really reflected in the Table. I can modify the record for Thiele:Jehoiachin to "598-597" and add a reference to Thiele:Zedekiah to inform readers about alternative interpretations. As far as the Genealogy chart goes I'm not intending to modify it. Apologist en (talk) 20:51, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en; That is clear as a proposed correction, and everyone should probably wait for a least overnight to allow all the other editors a chance to respond to this new section. It is important, since you have been challenged on this material, that you try to provide the exact citation and page number for the John Bright book which you are using as your support here and try to be precise. FelixRosch (TALK) 21:35, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@FelixRosch:

"A History of Israel" by John Bright (Westminster John Knox Press, 2000):

• p. 324 - king Josiah's death in 609 BC
• p. 325 - Jehoahaz reigning for three months in 609 BC
• pp. 325, 327 - Jehoiakim's reign lasts from 609 BC till 598 BC
• p. 327 - Jehoiachin's three month rule lasting from 598 BC till 597 BC
• pp. 327, 330 - Zedekiah reign from 597 BC till 587 BC

Apologist en (talk) 22:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en, I told you to stick with the DNR discussion instead of continuing with the discussion on Talk:Kings of Judah per WP:LISTEN. You failed to listen, and now you're trying to make a point with this inappropriate response: against Jeffro77 per WP:GAME and close to personal attacking behavior and discussing content without informing DNR participants. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 05:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Summary as on 11 December; Integrating comments into one section on One Page

@Apologist en; Dispute resolution is normally limited to being a single forum for you to express your opinions in a neutral forum without your simultaneous use of other forums; your comments will make more sense and be more effective if you keep them in one place, here, and if you could acknowledge not to spread them out on different pages. It would be useful if you could integrate your comments into this discussion and refer others to this page as well during mediation. Comment to @JudeccaXIII and @Jeffro77 and @Lisa; All content issues should be kept in one place during dispute resolution and if you have comments from other forums or Talk pages from yesterday or today, then they should be re-posted here. The latest reference here is that the List of Kings presented yesterday in the last section directly above apparently has reliable sources (see John Bright). Could you indicate your view on this content, focusing on the content alone. FelixRosch (TALK) 16:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

@FelixRosch; That was not intentional. I couldn't commit my edit under the Talk:Kings... section here and I thought that further discussion should be continued on the original talk page. Shall I repost that bit here? If yes, in which section? Apologist en (talk) 17:33, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en; At present, there should be a chance for the other editors to first respond to the new citations and authorities you have just provided yesterday. All three editors who have made previous challenges here, @JudeccaXIII and @Jeffro77 and @Lisa, are experienced editors and they should be given a day or so to indicate their present concerns on the new citations and corrections you have listed. Give them a day or so to answer, and they should be able to indicate the content concerns which they currently wish to express. FelixRosch (TALK) 19:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

My only comment right now is that not a single one of these synchronisms is acceptable. The whole graphic is ridiculously out of place on Misplaced Pages. A table, in the article, with columns that show synchronisms according to different scholars... that could be of some value here. But this graphic... I mean, come on. Look at it. The only reason I pointed out the issue with Josiah's death was to give one example of a problem which pervades the whole thing. Treating it as though it's the only problem I pointed to misses the point entirely.

This graphic constitutes a piece of original research. Even if every individual point in it can be sourced, the graphic -- as a whole -- is original research. It is a novel piece of work. As such, if he were to publish it in a reliable source, it could, perhaps, be legitimately added to an article. As things stand, however, there is literally nothing whatsoever that he can do to make it okay. Look at his list of sources on the page. These are not Misplaced Pages sources; these are footnotes on a piece of original research.

Additionally, just speaking to the merits of the work itself, he's cited Thiele and Galil, who disagree on the chronology. And he's done so in a way that stands as his own synthesis of the sources. Honestly, I can't believe this much time has been spent on this. I really don't have anything else to say here. Last time I commented here, Apologist en responded with personal attacks. I expect that he'll do so this time as well. I don't have the patience for him. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 03:27, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en & FelixRosch I can only confirm some dates of reigning kings according to my only trusted source. I haven't put much time into finding sources, so I hope this might help clarify somethings at least.

• King Josiah's reign (640–609 BCE)
• King Jehoiachin was exiled by Nebuchadnezzar in (597 BCE)
• King Nabopolassar broke Babylon off from Assyrian rule in (626 BCE)
• King Nebuchadnezzar II's reign (604–561 BCE) & dissolved the monarchy of Judah in (586 BCE)

The source is close to the current year: The Cambridge Dictionary of Judaism and Jewish Culture (2011) Judith R. Baskin Starting link: Here is a more extended timeline of of reigns for Israel (Samaria), Judah, and Babylon from the University of Pennsylvania Press (2010) pg. 334–335 — JudeccaXIII (talk) 23:02, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The links provided don't seem to provide any directly relevant information. However, even those details are not unambiguously correct or agreed upon in secular sources. A good number of sources indicate that Josiah began to reign in 639; that 587 is the correct year for 'dissolving the monarchy of Judah'; that Nebuchadnezzar's accession year was 605 BC; additionally, Jehoiachin was exiled in 597 but before the calendar year beginning Nisan. These issues could be presented in the chart with a few 'c.'s (i.e. circa).

But aside from all of that, I already previously commended Apologist en for providing sources at the diagram's information page (for which I was 'thanked' with an invalid comparison with an unrelated uncontroversial image I added 3 years ago). As previously—and repeatedly—stated, if there is consensus to add the image, I'm not overly concerned.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:34, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en; All 3 editors have responded and there appears to be significant concern raised about your diagram. If possible for you, it might be useful for you to distinguish between (a) facts in the diagram, and (b) the diagram itself. Regarding (b), it would be very difficult for you to make your case in its current form. Therefor it might make sense for you to concentrate on phase (a) and consider listing in sequence the facts in your diagram as you would prefer to see them in the main body of the article, either in one of the existing tables or within the narrative sections of the main body of the article. Even if your list numbers up the half a dozen or a full dozen changes, it is still useful at this time if you could list in sequence the facts from the diagram (with citations) which you would like to see in the main body of the article first. As a suggestion to you, this should be done before you return to your diagram itself, if this is possible for you to do with citations for each fact you are defending in sequence. Comment to @JudeccaXIII and @Jeffro77 and @Lisa; My suggestion for mediation is that this edit be considered on the basis of separating (a) the facts in the diagram from (b) the diagram itself, the latter of which has been challenged; it is up to @Apologist en, to decide if a sequence of the facts @Apologist wants in the main body of the article can be listed here with citations. FelixRosch (TALK) 16:55, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

@FelixRosch

Regarding (b) - I could modify the diagram in the PDF form (in SVG it would be more complicated) by adding another page to it - as was once suggested by Jeffro77 - and provide there a list of events, synchronisms and juxtapositions in a chronological order with references to reliable secondary sources. Along each event I could also provide other possible interpretations I am familiar with and I am willing to present on that list any interpretation proposed by either editor if they supply me with a secondary source reference. Squeezing all possible interpretations into one diagram is hardly possible, but I can easily present all of them on subsequent pages of the PDF.

Regarding (a) - I will provide the list you asked for, but I need some time to rewrite it to fit Misplaced Pages patterns - as @Lisa does not regard them as references in their present form.

Apologist en (talk) 17:16, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en; If that's possible then your emphasis should be on phase (a). Try to be as focused as possible in posting your full list here, and you can use the John Bright citations you already mentioned above. FelixRosch (TALK) 17:29, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Just as a matter of clarification, it isn't that they aren't sources; they just aren't sources for his claims. They are sources for what the various inscriptions say and for what a small selection of scholars have to say about the chronology. They are not sources for his conclusions. Which is the essence of original research: drawing conclusions. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 18:33, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

@FelixRosch; I have followed your suggestion and started to work on the text to be incorporated into the main body of the article. This will take some time, but the work in progress can be seen in my sandbox on Misplaced Pages. If you had rather any unfinished bits of my work posted in this thread please let me know.

@Lisa; Could you be precise and tell us, in the meantime, what are my conclusions not supported by the sources?

Apologist en (talk) 02:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

@Apologist en; That sounds reasonable and try to make sure that all the citations are accurate. @Lisa is indicating that all of your citations are subject to be double checked. You can likely use the week-end to create your full list and then post the completed list when you have all the citations included. FelixRosch (TALK) 16:05, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

List of eight highlighted points for discussion 14 December

(Responses and comments may be posted in the "Response" section opened directly below the References listed here for the eight highlighted points. FelixRosch (TALK) 16:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC))

@FelixRosch; Here is the text to be incorporated into the Kings of Judah article containing all the information found in my diagram (plus some extra facts) along with secondary sources. I tried not to miss anything, if any clarification or source is still required I'm ready to supply it. I hope the "References" section won't influence the layout on this page.

The 37th year of the Neo-Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar has been unambiguously dated to 568/567 BC based on an ancient astronomical diary (VAT 4956). That, in turn, allowed precise dating of events described in other Babylonian documents of particular importance for Jewish history:

• the last Egyptian intervention in Assyria in the summer of the 17th year of Nabopolassar was recorded on tablet BM 21901 and has been linked to the biblical battle of Megiddo and the death of Josiah (usually dated to Sivan or early Tammuz 609 BC), the three-month reign of Jehoahaz (while Necho II was engaged in fighting for Assyrians) and the subsequent installment of Jehoiakim (placed either before or after Tishri 1, 609 BC);
• the battle of Carchemish in the spring or summer of Nabopolassar's 21st year mentioned on tablet BM 21946 took place around Sivan 605 BC and was identified as the event spoken of in the book of Jeremiah 46:2 while the subsequent conquest of Syro-Palestine by Babylonians has been associated with the siege of Jerusalem described in Daniel 1:1 which in turn enabled scholars to synchronize a number of events recorded only in the Hebrew Scriptures;
• the above mentioned tablet BM 21946 speaks of a military campaign in Syro-Palestine during Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year, seizing the city of Yaahudu on Adar 2 (dated to March 15/16 - evening to evening -, 597 BC), capturing its king and appoining there a new ruler. This series of events has been unanimously associated with a story found in 2 Chronicles 36:10 which deals with a siege of Jerusalem by Babylonians (a few months after the death of Jehoiakim), the ensuing deportation of Jehoiachin and the installment of Zedekiah sometime around Nisan 1;
• the fact of Jehoiachin, his family and servants having been captives in Babylon in the 13th year of Nebuchadnezzar and onwards has been verified following the publication of the so called Jehoiachin's Rations Tablets
• the accession year of Amel-Marduk was dated to 562/561 BC on the basis of various documents the best known of which is the Uruk King List (tablet IM 65066); this information was in turn used to date king Jehoiachin's release from prison on April 3 (Adar 27), 561 BC.

No chronicles recording military activities of Nebuchadnezzar during 593 - 562 BC exist except for tablet BM 33041 dated to the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar (568/567 BC) and containing description of his army invading Egypt, which has also been cited in the context of predictions found in Ezekiel 29:17-20. Due to this scarcity of extrabiblical sources one of the most important dates in Jewish history relating to the destruction of Jerusalem is a matter of debate with some scholars favouring 587 BC while others opting for 586 BC. Neither view seems to be a majority and the interpretation depends on a number of factors, especially:

• assuming either the accession year system or the non-accession year system for the last kings of Judah;
• counting regnal years of the last Jewish rulers from either Nisan 1 or Tishri 1;
• chossing either Adar or Nisan 597 BC as the beginning of king Zedekiah's reign and Jehoiachin's exile.

An indepth analysis of the subject seems to favour the 587 BC solution at the same time showing that the last kings of Judah may have employed Tishri-based non-accession year system.

References

Responses and Comments on eight highlighted points and references from 14 December

This section is for all editors to present their responses to the content of the eight highlighted points which @Apologist is presenting for inclusion in the article. @Lisa, @Jeffro77, @JudeccaXIII and other editors may list their comments either to all the points or selectively as needed below in this section. FelixRosch (TALK) 15:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Most of the suggested text above is good, and the sourcing appears to be quite complete. (I'm not sure the incorrect dating for the fall of Jerusalem as 586 even deserves that much attention, as a direct comparison of BM 21946 with Jeremiah 52:28-30—in addition to everything else known of the period—for the dating of the first siege allows for no year but 587 for the subsequent one, and this is more than adequately addressed by Young). There's some editorial commentary in the suggested text, particularly in the latter parts, that should be rephrased in order to be in an encyclopedic tone. As expressed quite early in the discussion, I do have some concern that such a level of detail may be tangential to the article in question. Parts of the text above should probably be merged into Siege of Jerusalem (587 BC) and Siege of Jerusalem (597 BC)--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Iran–Saudi Arabia football rivalry

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Iran–Saudi Arabia football rivalry (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Pahlevun (talk · contribs)
• FutbalTeamha (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In Iran–Saudi Arabia football rivalry#Origins, User:FutbalTeamha wants to add something which I think is against WP:OR. I asked him to provide a reliable source on the matter, but he rejects to do so and blames me for having a conflict of Interest. His avoiding to adress my concerns and multiple reverts has lead to edit war.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We had a discussion here in the Talkpage. He refuses to answer my last message.

How do you think we can help?

Providing a third opinion on the dispute may resolve it.

Summary of dispute by User:FutbalTeamha

Iran–Saudi Arabia football rivalry discussion

Comment from uninvolved editor; To both editors, @Pahlevun and @FutbalTeamha, This is a new page created less than a month ago with very low daily page counts. Are both of you sure that this page would make it through a review for its relevance to Misplaced Pages based on no comparable articles being found on the disambiguation search for other "rivalry" pages? This type of material, when and if it is covered, usually appears on individual football team pages. FelixRosch (TALK) 16:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• Would it make it through a review? Not sure, don't care much; @Pahlevun's the one who created the article. I just think the origins section should include the actual origins. I've added referenced material and the other user continues to delete it.--FutbalTeamha (talk) 08:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
• Comment — Felix makes a good point, the article is pretty unconventional. This doesn't mean it fails WP:GNG per se, and I'm open to the prospect of its inclusion alongside other articles about similar international sporting rivalries. With regards to FutbalTeamha's addition to the article, I think what he says is actually accurate and can probably be backed up by reliable academic sources, so I don't know if it falls into the realm of original research. That doesn't mean it belongs in the article. I don't think it needs to go into detail on the Islamization of either country, seeing as it's specifically about their football rivalry. The Sunni–Shia rift is an ideological component and warrants mentioning, but that's about it. Kurtis 02:05, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Tyrannosaurus

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Tyrannosaurus (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Robert M Johnson (talk · contribs)
• FunkMonk (talk · contribs)
• Dinoguy2 (talk · contribs)
• BigCat82 (talk · contribs)
• Raptormimus456 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The Tyrannosaurus article displays information leading readers to believe this species of creature had feathers. While, some of its relatives did indeed have feathers, the Tyrannosaurus species was only ever found to have scales. The article should reflect the possibility that the creature may have had feathers, and not lead readers to believe they definitely did. Since it is still not known which is true, the article should remain neutral of the issue.

The two main supporting arguments of the feathered tyrannosaurus issue both deal with phylogenetic bracketing, and involve the distant feathered relatives (animals in a different order) and two animals in the (supposed) same order Yutyrannus and Dilong.

The Dilong is a species which scientists are still having some difficulty placing in its evolutionary tree, and it is currently disputed whether or not it is closely related to tyrannosaurs at all (some say the Dilong is more closely related to raptors).

The Yutyrannus lived in a climate where things would have been extremely cold, and it is a common belief that they retained feathers while the tyrannosaurus did not retain its feathers.

At any rate, the animal species, Tyrannosaurus is still believed by many to have exclusively had scales. Since it is still not known whether or not this species had scales, feathers, or both... the article should state exactly that.

Also, there is an image displayed on the article that depicts the Tyrannosaurus with wings instead of arms. I do not believe there is a consensus anywhere regarding a winged Tyrannosaurus, but this image is hiding behind the "feathered" tyrannosaurus argument, and should be removed indefinitely. This image was created by a user, and his depiction of filamentous feathers happened to involve replacing the animals arms with wings for some strange reason.

Thank you for reading and contributing your opinions on this matter.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talked with users on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

You can provide a third party opinion on both the Neutral pov issue, the factual information on the article, and the winged tyrannosaurus image.

Summary of dispute by FunkMonk

Summary of dispute by Dinoguy2

Summary of dispute by BigCat82

Summary of dispute by Raptormimus456

Tyrannosaurus discussion

Where has this been discussed before? I can find zero trace of any discussions on any of the names users. --Mdann52talk to me! 17:55, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The discussion has been on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:06, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Facepalm - that's what you get for taking people's word for it. @Robert M Johnson: you need to notify the participants, per the notice at the top of the page. If this is not done within 48 hours, I will have to close this as malformed. --Mdann52talk to me! 11:05, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

You personally... _Fortuna 11:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@Robert M Johnson; It is the responsibility of the filing editor to send notifications or pings to the participating editors. At present after 24 hours none of the editors have responded. @Mdann52; It wasn't clear if you are volunteering for this, in the event that all the editors do eventually show up. It appears that whoever does eventually do this would need to know about the phylogeny-ontogeny distinctions as used in general biology and medicine. Cheers. FelixRosch (TALK) 15:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Dispute resolution noticeboard
• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution