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Quotes

Quotations need to be verifiably sourced. Otherwise, they are subject to removal--especially when there are WP:BLP issues involved. -- Avi (talk) 04:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

RFC

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Scalise admitted speaking via teleconference to the EURO group, a David Duke affiliated white supremacist group.

• Should the CenLamar blog (the original breaking source) be used as a source for our coverage? (eg, is it compliant with WP:BLP in particular WP:SPSBLP which says "Never use self-published sources – including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets – as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject (see below). "Self-published blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs.")
• Should reliably sourced comments from both Democrats and Republicans defending Scalise against the allegations of racism be included in our coverage. (either quoted, or summarized) (See previous version here https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Steve_Scalise&diff=640249901&oldid=640249016)

-- Gaijin42 (talk) 16:04, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Survey

• Do not use blog, include comments WP:SPSBLP is a policy and the blog is a clear violation. the comments are reliably sourced and including defamatory comment without allowing any defense is not WP:NPOV Gaijin42 (talk) 16:04, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
• Summoned here by bot. Easy call. No per above. Coretheapple (talk) 01:22, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple There were two questions, could you clarify which one(s) you are answering? Gaijin42 (talk) 02:31, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh I was referring to the blog comments. However, I see no problem with the sources or content in this version. Coretheapple (talk) 04:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - None of the content I added relied on CenLamar.com. I added the blog so that readers could locate it for further research, which is one of the purposes of citations. Note that quite a few reliable news sources have have cited the blog themselves. I would be amenable to moving it out of references and including it as an external link. As to the the question Should reliably sourced comments from both Democrats and Republicans defending Scalise against the allegations of racism be included in our coverage? There does need to be room for countervailing opinions per WP:NPOV, but not everyone's opinion is worth mentioning. We should be selective, and not cherry pick quotes. The article in it's

Blogs are never used as BLP sources under any circumstances. No need in this case. I see it is on page one of the New York Times today. Coretheapple (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

To clarify, it was not intended to be a source. It would have probably been better to format it as a (non-citation) footnote. - MrX 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• Really? Nope Use of blogs is strongly deprecated except under very specific circumstances. Which this does not meet. WP:NPOV does, moreover, require balancing opinions. Not even a close call here. Collect (talk) 19:19, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Minor Children

I removed the full names and birthdates of the minor children. Those dates and names are not reported in the source listed anyway. Arzel (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Removal of sources

I'm seeking a cogent expatiation of why Collect removed these sources from the article.- MrX 19:52, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

References

1. Costa, Robert (December 30, 2014). "Former KKK leader says his political adviser was 'friendly' with Rep. Scalise". Washington Post. Retrieved December 31, 2014.
2. Zurcher, Anthony (December 31, 2014). "Republican Steve Scalise in hot water over 2002 meeting with 'neo-Nazi group'". BBC. Retrieved December 31, 2014.

Perhaps you should understand that "seeking a cogent expatiation"(sic) is not precisely a civil form of discourse. The fact is that this article falls under WP:BLP and therefore contentious claims must be strongly sourced. Instead we have a "friend of a friend" type connection to the KKK which is a "contentious claim" and which is weakly sourced -- I can find a person who would say Lee Oswald was a friend of a friend of LBJ - but the concept of "third party knowledge" is a long way from being strong. (my edit summary was third party claim of "friendship" is weak - too weak for a BLP or any article in fact -- suppose a "third party" said Lee Oswald was "friendly" with LBJ's friend? strong enough for you?) which seems quite "cogent." The fact that MrX is re-inserting what I consider a BLP violation here is troubling, but not unexpected when politics is involved on any Misplaced Pages BLP of a political figure. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

It's probably best to leave personalities out of this, but feel free to take it up on my user talk page. Inserting citations to reliable sources that almost verbatim support the content in the article is in no way a WP:BLP violation. Nor does a straw man argument doesn't make it so.- MrX 20:24, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Another source has been removed in this edit by Collect, who seems be under the impression that we are not allowed include primary sources in an article. Also troubling is the removal of white supremacist from in front of the group (EURO) that Scalise spoke at. This is troubling, because our sources use exactly this wording extensively. ] would seem to require that describe this group as our sources describe it, without hiding the fact that they are a white supremacist organization.- MrX 03:48, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Read WP:RSand WP:PRIMARY and also note that adding adjectives "to make the person appear evil" requires direct and strong sourcing directly related to the person who is the subject of the BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:37, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm very familiar with those policies. Primary sources are perfectly acceptable as long as editors don't try to analyze them. To quote the policy:

• "Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources."
• " Unless restricted by another policy, reliable primary sources may be used in Misplaced Pages; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them."

From WP:BLPPRIMARY:

• "Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source,..."

So I ask you, which of these policy explanations are you relying on for the removal of a report about a politician, from the Federal Election Commission?

I'm not sure what you mean by "to make the person appear evil". If by chance you mean "white supremacist group", that is the terminology used by a great majority of our sources when they refer to Scalise's speech. If you disagree with that, you can certainly raise the issue at WP:BLP/N or WP:OR/N. To omit it would be a violation of WP:NPOV, and as you know, white washing articles is usually frowned upon.- MrX 21:59, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Controversy length undue

The controversy section is now approximately 1/3 of this article. (measured by increase from 20k size to 28k size since inclusion). This is clearly WP:UNDUE. An event he spoke at one time where we have no knowledge of what he actually said, where the core sourcing is stormfront.org and a blog, should not be 1/3 of this guy's multiple decade career blp. Gaijin42 (talk) 13:51, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there are 1663 words in the article (excluding the infobox). There are 376 398 words in the controversy section. That's 22.6% 23.9% of the article. It's possible that the non-controversy portion of the article is too short, and anyone is welcome to expand it. I believe that the controversy section is about the right length, but I wouldn't be opposed to any of the following changes:

• "After news of the EURO speaking engagement came out, The Huffington Post reported that Scalise had accepted $1,000 from David Duke's adviser, Kenny Knight. The money was given to Scalise in 2008." → "Scalise had also accepted $1,000 from David Duke's adviser, Kenny Knight in 2008."

• "On December 29, Niels Lesniewski of Roll Call reprinted an article that had been run in 1999, after Congressman Bob Livingston had resigned from Congress. Duke and Scalise were considering running for his seat and they and others were interviewed for the piece. When asked about a potential bid for Congress by Duke, Scalise had told the newspaper that he held many of the same "conservative" views as Duke, but was a more electable candidate, saying that Duke's "novelty" had worn off. Two days later, Louisiana political reporter Stephanie Grace recounted that during her first meeting with Scalise two decades ago, he had told her that he was "like David Duke without the baggage"." → "In 1999, Scalise had told a newspaper that he held many of the same "conservative" views as David Duke, but was a more electable candidate."."

• "Louisiana politicians such as Republicans Roger F. Villere, Jr. and Bobby Jindal, and Democrat Cedric Richmond defended Scalise's character. Speaker of the House John Boehner voiced his continued confidence in Scalise as Majority Whip." → "Several Louisiana politicians, Democrat Cedric Richmond, and House Speaker John Boehner defended Scalise's character."

• "Several Democratic members of Congress, as well as Mo Elleithee, a spokesperson for the Democratic National Committee, criticized Scalise, and challenged his statement that he was not aware of the group's affiliation with racism and anti-Semitism. Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center called upon Scalise to step down from his leadership position as Majority Whip." → ""Several Democratic members of Congress criticized Scalise, and challenged his statement that he was not aware of the group's affiliation with racism and anti-Semitism. The Southern Poverty Law Center called upon Scalise to step down from his leadership position as Majority Whip."

How does that sound?- MrX 14:32, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Salon reporting subject did not speak at EURO event

Apparently a neighborhood event at same hotel. Sheriff dept and Red Cross spoke as well. . Capitalismojo (talk) 16:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Quote from Salon: "Rep. Steve Scalise may have just ineptly admitted to speaking at a white supremacist event that eyewitnesses say he never attended. Two event attendees say it’s factually inaccurate to characterize Scalise’s comments as directed at the supremacist gathering ". Capitalismojo (talk) 16:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that yesterday. (Slate, BTW). It may be worth mentioning in the article, with attribution, if other sources pick it up.- MrX 16:53, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

It was picked up, it was used as a source for the now removed Human Events bit that was called "debunked" https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Steve_Scalise&diff=640477316&oldid=640467207 I have restored it. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:08, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Kenny Knight

I removed the rest of the Kenny Knight off-topic content following Gaijin42's lead. There's not need to overload this bio with extraneous content, especially when some of Knight's statements don't hold up to scrutiny, according to sources (which are secondary and primary).- MrX 15:00, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

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