| Revision as of 23:48, 12 January 2015 editTenebrae (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users155,424 edits RfC archive link← Previous edit |
Revision as of 00:40, 13 January 2015 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,303,087 editsm Archiving 17 discussion(s) to Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 11, Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 10) (botNext edit → |
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How does this not supersede any of the other sources mentioned?? |
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How does this not supersede any of the other sources mentioned?? |
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] (]) 20:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC) |
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] (]) 20:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC) |
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== Edit request on 14 October 2013 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|<!-- Page to be edited -->|answered=yes}} |
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<!-- Begin request --> |
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Despite any sources who say otherwise, Mariah was born on March 27, 1970. Her own mother has said so in interview with Oprah in 1999. |
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<!-- End request --> |
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] (]) 00:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC) |
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] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> This sounds contentious. Please form a consensus of how to include this with the other editors who are interested in this article. Thanks, ] (]) 02:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC) |
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:: I contend it. 1969 long predates Miss Carey's comments, by at least a decade. 1969 was listed with the US Copyright Office before Mariah ever signed with Sony. I would highly contend Miss Carey simply stated what her daughter wanted. Plus, 1970 is difficult to fit with a1987 high school graduation year. This would have Mariah graduating a full year before she turned 18 - and Mariah has freely admitted she barely passed high school. Graduating a year early is not possible. Then, there's the People Magazine claim of 1969... <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!-- Autosigned by SineBot --> |
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== Food == |
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Mariah Carey states in "Good Morning America" that she does indeed enjoy her cereal with the cereal before the milk. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!-- Autosigned by SineBot --> |
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== "As Carey's friendship with Starr grew, so did her interest in helping Carey succeed in the industry." == |
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Is that sentence supposed to make sense??? First of all, the subject is FRIENDSHIP. What does "Her" refer to?? |
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The sentence should read "As Carey's friendship with Starr grew, so did STARR'S interest in helping Carey succeed in the industry." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:21, 13 November 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!-- Autosigned by SineBot --> |
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: It was badly phrased. I've changed it to something clearer. Thanks. --<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 21:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC) |
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== Date of Birth == |
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{{edit semi-protected|<!-- Page to be edited -->|answered=yes}} |
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<!-- Begin request --> |
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I know Mariah personally and she was in fact born in 1970 |
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<!-- End request --> |
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] (]) 13:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC) |
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: ] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Misplaced Pages doesn't make use of claims of personal knowledge, I'm afraid. We document what is stated in reliable sources that readers can verify for themselves. The footnote (FN1) lists sources for both years, so that it how it must stand. Sorry. --] (]) 16:03, 23 November 2013 (UTC) |
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:: Fine to go with RS. I do note have Nickson 1998 at hand to check if it gives the conflicting birth dates, but would be surprised if it does. I do have the following RS giving March 27, 1970: . In fact, I am having trouble finding an RS mentioning 1969. I think it's safe to fix the article. -- ] (]) 20:39, 21 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:IMDb is not a reliable source, just saying. '''] (] / ])''' 20:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC) |
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== Mariah Carey celebrates Christmas with another dictator Controversy == |
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The pop star's concert for Angola's president isn't the first time she's entertained a despot... |
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http://www.theguardian.com/music/shortcuts/2013/dec/22/mariah-carey-celebrates-christmas-dictator <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!-- Autosigned by SineBot --> |
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: The second paragraph in ] mentions the concert for Muammar Gaddafi, with reference #360 to an earlier Guardian article. Are you suggesting something further should be added to the article? ] (]) 00:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC) |
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:: I do not think it has caused that much of a mayhem that we should start reporting the concert in a negative way. Third party media hasn't extensively reported it. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 10:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC) |
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== Edit war January 4, 2014 == |
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] is repeatedly removing cited information, such as . I am up against ], would some other editors review this change, and add the properly cited information back if appropriate? —]<sub>]/]</sub> 22:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2014 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|<!-- Page to be edited -->|answered=yes}} |
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<!-- Begin request --> |
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Mariah Carey born in 1970 look -> http://mstrendy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mariah-carey-twins-birth-certificate.jpg Thank You. |
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] (]) 20:36, 21 January 2014 (UTC) |
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<!-- End request --> |
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:Yes, this is mildly interesting. It purports to be a birth certificate. But of course confecting a JPEG of a birth certificate is a fairly trivial task. And this JPEG is for some reason not in a music website but instead within the website of a retailer of women's clothes. If the birth certificate is genuine and of interest, then we can expect that what it says will be written up in a reliable secondary source, which can be cited in the article. -- ] (]) 01:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Birth year == |
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Being that today is her birthday and multiple sources are claiming she has turned 44 (while I can't find any saying she's turned 45)... isn't it about time we removed the 1969 date? Many sources in the past have listed that 1969 date but you won't find them going back to correct their old information. Seems like the media all figured out the correct year (1970). My copy and paste is being wacko right now, otherwise I'd post links.. but a google/bing search for "Mariah Carey" or "Mariah Carey birthday" today brings up a bunch of sources all going with 1970. '''] • ]'''</span> 14:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC) |
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:And many other sources including highly ] magazines and even her hometown newspaper say 1969. Google ""mariah carey" born 1969" and you'll get nearly a half-million hits. |
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:The current phrasing is the consensus from a long and comprehensively discussed an RfC. See above. The whole purpose of an RfC is to reach consensus and close the argument. This is settled matter. --] (]) 14:32, 27 March 2014 (UTC) |
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::It was all a ton of TLDR. I don't care too much either way, was just looking for a simple answer. So thanks.. I think. '''] • ]'''</span> 14:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC) |
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:::: Her mum said in an interview with Oprah that Mariah was born in 1970. I just made the change but was reverted. — ] 18:33, 28 March 2014 (UTC) |
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::::: I know I'm late on this, but ] where can this interview be found? Given how many reliable sources indicate a 1970 birth and many other reliable sources indicate a 1969 birth, it looks like the only way we can find out for certain is either that or by accessing Mariah's birth certificate. ] (]) 04:55, 26 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::: Just YouTube "mariah carey mum oprah". Didn't her birth certificate surface online a few years ago? — ] 10:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::: From what I can find, it was the birth certificates of her twins that leaked online. I did find video stating she was born 1970. I know there was a lengthy conversation about this, but I have a new proposal: |
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::::::::In the intro, we include sources that state 1970, and also include a note saying something like "While multiple reliable sources state Carey was born in 1969, her mother confirmed in an interview with ] that Carey was born in 1970" and include the link to if needed. |
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::::::::This is similar to the case of ], where a note in the intro indicates he stated that his middle name was "Carroll" while multiple reliable sources gave it as "Christopher". ] (]) 17:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::At 2:26, Mariah's mother does point to Mariah and says, "In 1970, when she was born...." Since family members would certainly be recruited to shave a year off someone's age, and since official documents like her driver's license and school records say 1969, I'm wondering if, to adapt ]'s idea, we use the ] model, re: Moore's name: After giving cites for both positions add, "Carey's mother says 1970," with this ''Oprah''/YouTube cite. --] (]) 01:02, 29 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I doubt family would give out the wrong age (unless said family members have poor memory and/or are notorious for lying), and so far I haven't seen any photos of her school records or license. There is the Demi Moore model. If we get a photo of Mariah's birth certificate, that would be surefire proof. However, only info on her twins' birth certificates have been revealed. ] (]) 01:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::In the footnote is a quote from ''People'' magazine, which profiled her early in her career, saying editors saw her driver's license, spoke with school administrators to confirm her school records, and also confirmed her birthdate with her manager, who all gave 1969. Also, her hometown paper gives 1969. The mother's comment has to be put into perspective against all that. What do you think? Should we add a sentence about the mother, a la Demi? --] (]) 23:46, 29 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::I checked that ref and found 2 problems: 1) It does not contain such a quote. 2) I see no photos of such records. I'm willing to go a la Demi Moore or a la Will Smith. ] (]) 23:55, 29 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Not sure you hit the right link. ''People'' gave the information to a database at http://www.nndb.com/people/115/000023046/#FN1, which is linked to from the word "specified" in the footnote. |
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:::::::But we seem to be in agreement. I'll go ahead and add the mom's comment and the YouTube link. --] (]) 00:02, 30 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::My oops: That YouTube link was a copyvio and got reverted. --] (]) 00:11, 30 April 2014 (UTC) |
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{{od|:::::::}}<small>(])</small>I reverted that, as the video was not uploaded or hosted by the copyright owner. Copyright violations should in no circumstances be linked to. If you can find that video hosted somewhere by Oprah or the TV network, or discussed in an article by a reliable source, then that could be appropriately used as a reference. ] (]) 00:12, 30 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::], though that link does contain the quote but no photos. Therefore we don't have quite solid evidence with such a link even if it wasn't declared unreliable. ] (]) 00:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::True, though in this case we're not citing NNDB data but a quote from ''People'' via that site. And as you correctly imply, that one citation itself is not definitive — that's why it's just one of several cites on both sides of the question. --] (]) 14:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::If including ''People'', I would at least remove the quote NNDB uses. For all we know, due to NNDB's unreliability it wouldn't surprise me if the site made that quote up on its own. Personally, I recommend using something like ''Los Angeles Times'' in place of it or her hometown paper ''Newsday''. Those provided more context for a 1969 birth than ''People'' did. ] (]) 15:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC) |
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== Associated acts == |
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My additions towards the associated acts keep getting reverted. Go If there is a consensus when these artists: Brenda K. Starr, Trey Lorenz, Allure, Da Brat, Boyz II Men, and Whitney Houston can be added along with Jermaine Dupri. All the respective artists I added have Mariah Carey as a notable associated act on their info boxes. ] (]) 05:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:You need to provide third party reliable sources for this. Not your own words or other Misplaced Pages articles. Associated acts are those who have been associated for a long time with an artist. Like Breakfast Club for Madonna, Lady Starlight for Lady Gaga, Destiny's Child for Beyonce etc. One/two time collaborations with an artist does not make them associated acts and that is how the consensus is across all the musical pages in Misplaced Pages. Now you need to make points as to how these artists can be listed as associated acts with their one time collaborations. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 05:12, 16 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::It's not as simple as "associated for a long time", though those are good samples. Any of the following also constitutes associated act: |
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::*Has worked on a collaborative album together (i.e. Jay-Z and Kanye West) |
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::*Has been part of a group or band (i.e. Gene Simmons with Kiss, Billie Joe Armstrong with Green Day) |
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::*Have frequently collaborated with one another (i.e. Pitbull and Jennifer Lopez) |
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::Producers and lyricists are generally not considered associated acts unless they contribute vocals or something, so for example Dr. Luke and Max Martin would not constitute as associated acts for Katy Perry, and DJ White Shadow would not count as one for Lady Gaga. '''''] (] • ])''''' 05:18, 16 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Driving the point home, gooooo Snuggums! :P —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 05:24, 16 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Thank you :P '''''] (] • ])''''' 05:26, 16 June 2014 (UTC) |
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List of Associated Acts |
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] |
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* No question, long time collaborator and produced numerous song's through Carey's career. |
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] |
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* Mariah Carey sang live background vocals for Starr, and she helped Carey secure a recording contract by giving a demo tape of hers to Columbia Records executive Tommy Mottola at a party. |
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* Basically, Starr played a role into helping Carey jump-start her music career starting in the late 80's. |
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] |
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* Featured Supporting singer of Mariah Carey throughout various tours in Carey's career He first appeared on her first promotional tour in 1990, and the following year he provided background vocals on her album Emotions. Lorenz again served as Carey's backing singer on her March 16, 1992 appearance on the television show MTV Unplugged. Lorenz and Carey also sang a cover of the Jackson 5's "I'll Be There" - a duet at Michael Jackson's memorial service on July 7, 2009. |
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* Recorded a critically successful self-titled debut album. The single "Someone to Hold", which he co-wrote and co-produced with Carey. |
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* Supported Mariah Carey on her albums and concert tours again in 1997, including a featured spot in the 2003 Charmbracelet World Tour, which he co-wrote with Carey and Cory Rooney. He was again featured in Carey's 2006 The Adventures of Mimi Tour, doing background vocals and singing three songs, "Never Too Much", "A House Is Not a Home" and "Crazy", during one of her many costume changes. |
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* Previously signed to Carey's short-lived imprint label, MonarC. |
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] |
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* Signed to Carey's ] in the 90's and Carey helped with the production of their first album, ]. |
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* I believe this group can be left off as they are no longer associated with Carey and become more fringe within the music industry since their debut. |
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] |
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* Collaborated with Carey on "When You Believe" (US No. 15, UK No. 4), a duet with Mariah Carey for 1998's The Prince of Egypt soundtrack, which also became an international hit as it peaked in the Top 10 in several countries and won an Academy Award for Best Original Song. |
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* Has complimented her and mentions Houston as an influence. |
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* Was close friends and had a strong relationship with the late singer. |
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* Helped pave the way to showcase Carey's vocal talent. |
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] |
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* Featured on several remixes with Carey including Always Be My Baby, Honey, Heartbreaker, I Still Believe, and Loverboy. See ] for more info. |
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* Onstage guest on Mariah Carey's ] in Atlanta, New York City, Long Island, Washington DC, Chicago, and Los Angeles. |
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* Co-wrote a song with Mariah Carey back in 2007 called "O.O.C." which appears on ] and contributes backing vocals on the track signifying her sixth collaboration with Carey including remixes. |
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* Is close friends with the singer. |
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] - One time collaboration back in the 90's but still listed as an associated act in the article infobox. This group can be left off. |
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] (]) 06:08, 16 June 2014 (UTC) |
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:As I said before, producers generally '''do not count as associated acts''' and Jermaine certainly doesn't in this instance. '''''] (] • ])''''' 13:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::Lemme break it down person to person for Backendgaming. Dupri, producer of many of her songs, but not associated with Carey as vocalist. Brenda, was the instigator behind Carey's career, how is that even considered associated act? Trey, again supporting acts for Carey can't be associated acts can they? The same clause about the producers come along. Whitney, definitely a big no. They collaborated only once and they were "supposedly" friends in life. That in ''no'' way makes one an associated act. Neither does calling each other as influences. Da brat, you kinda hit the nail on your own coffin saying that he is friends with Mariah Carey and that he was a remixer of some of her tracks. By that logic every goddamn remixer out there is associated act for every other artist. Snuggums set a pretty concise parameter as to what can and cannot be supporting acts and I'm afraid none of them pass that. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 15:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC) |
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== Mariah's Birth Year == |
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I own two biography books of Mariah Carey, which are Mariah Carey Revisited: The Unauthorized (1998), and Mariah Carey, Her Story (1995),in Both books it has March 27th 1970 being her birth date. Also I own a few magazine's such BOP,Elle,Tiger Beat; that also states her birth date being March 27th 1970, in the articles, which were interviews. Also the 1969 was the year Patricia Carey (Mariah's mother) got pregnant with Mariah Carey,precisely on July 4th, that is why Mariah wrote the song 4th of July on the Butterfly album. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:33, 17 August 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:What sources say Patricia conceived Mariah on July 4, 1969, {{u|Draper38}}? The vast majority of sources I have seen say she was born 1970, but a while ago it was determined that both should be included. '''] (] / ])''' 00:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|SNUGGUMS}} I agree, and I (hopefully) have found something that should lay this to rest. (1970-2009) lists a Mariah Carey, born March 27, 1970, as living at 90 Franklin Street, New York City. Obviously these celebrity addresses are all over the internet, and it checks out with '']'' who has . A Mariah Carey was born in 1969, but on March 2, so this doesn't check out, nor does her current residence. —'']'' | ] 01:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Impressive findings, Jenn! The only more official thing I could think of would be gaining a copy if her birth certificate. Let's see what {{u|Petergriffin9901}}, {{u|Calvin999}}, and {{u|IndianBio}} have to say. '''] (] / ])''' 01:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::: Mariah's mum said on Oprah that Mariah was born in 1970. — ] 16:30, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I always believed it was 1970. Only thing I ever saw for 69' was an apparent article ''People'' published with her ID? Or something of that nature. I thing 1970 is the way to go.--] • ] 06:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::NNDB (which is an unreliable source per multiple RSN discussions) said ''People'' published her ID or something, but I can't find any ''People'' article talking about her records or anything. 1970 it is. '''] (] / ])''' 12:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::No, not without another RfC — see the admin-closed RfC above. ''Multiple'' other sources, including her own hometown paper, Newsday, which has covered her form the beginning give '''1969'''. --] (]) 16:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC) |
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== Article size == |
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This article's size has considerably increased to 200KB now. That's just too long and sinewy. I believe we should prune the article some with the biography portions and the influences to make it flow better and keep its FA status. A FAR would be a good idea as well. Let me know your thoughts guys. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 06:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:Increased to 200K..... from what point in time, and what was it before? This article has so far survived two FAR's, and the more recent FAR was several years ago, but we might not need that if boldly pruning ourselves. I'll give some thought as to what should be taken out and what should stay. We could also take to GOCE after finishing. '''] (] / ])''' 07:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::That would need to be analyzed, but I belive a size of 150K would suffice for now. A multiple factors are associated, QUOTEFARM, Page loading time, and also that a review is needed since as you pointed out that the FAR was many years ago, this needs time to scrutinize. {{small|(PS. What the hell is teh list of references doing below? >:()}} —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 07:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Per WP:FAR instructions, one must first raise issues on talk page and try to resolve them then and there. If issues go unresolved, THEN nominate for FAR. '''] (] / ])''' 07:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Yep that's what we are trying to achieve here. I think spotchecks are of utmost necessary, especially because of concerns like ]. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 08:27, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::{{Ping|SNUGGUMS}} {{Ping|IndianBio}} I agree with Snuggs. It definitely needs some work, but it's been over 180K for well over 3 years now. It's been a very slow and gradual build-up (especially with not much happening with her career in past years). The article sure needs work, but I don't necessarily think FAR is needed/appropriate. Also, 150K is a bit ambitious for someone of her career length/stature Bio. Anything below 175K would be removing valuable information and hurting the article.--] • ] 23:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::The article size looks to be of usual, or close to usual length, for a singer with Carey's success (legend and all that). And there are articles on Misplaced Pages bigger than this one. Also, when factoring in size, make sure that, per ], we are basing that on readable-prose and aren't including all the other stuff. ] (]) 23:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::To Petergriffin, I was definitely not suggesting removing valuable information from the article. What I was talking about is pruning the quotes a little and maybe paraphrasing it, so that the sentence flows are a little better. Well, Carey's career is not going to end with that flop of an album, she ''will'' continue to record. Now since there is a lull, we can look into the article through a review process and better it. And Flyer, yeah I was basing it on readable prose only. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 05:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::'''UPDATE''': There's probably more to do, but so far I've reduced the article from ~202k to ~193.8k. '''] (] / ])''' 03:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC) |
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== Edit request: Archive of dead link== |
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The ''Newsday'' Glenn Gamboa link (footnote 4) is dead or elsewhere on the live site. Here is the Oct. 14, 2013, archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20131014201804/http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/fanfare/li-music-hall-of-fame-recognizes-local-talent-1.884107 . Someone please add. --] (]) 16:48, 21 August 2014 (UTC) |
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== Adult contemporary == |
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Those who adding adult contemporary music (which is a style, not a genre) in the infobox from Mariah's song information pages. She had nothing to do with AC. ] (]) 14:03, 19 September 2014 (UTC) |
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== Singer-songwriter == |
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The term "]" is very different to listing "], ]" as separate occupations. The first few sentences of the singer-songwriter page show that Carey is not a singer-songwriter: |
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:{{xt|Singer-songwriters are musicians who write, compose and perform their own musical material including lyrics and melodies. '''As opposed to contemporary pop music singers who write or co-write their own songs''', the term singer-songwriter describes a distinct form of artistry, closely associated with the folk-acoustic tradition.}} |
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As explained, this is a person who writes, composes and performs their '''own''' musical material. Carey does all of these, even on her first six studio albums, with asssitance from other songwriters and producers, which is not in accordance with the term's distinct form where a person almost always composes alone (see the likes of ] or ]). Nor does Carey follow the stylistic conventions of the artistry (typically an instrumentalist with understated production, see ). —'']'' | ] 21:53, 19 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::Yes you are correct JennKR. None of the contemporary singers also can be listed as singer-songwriter. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 07:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::: JennKR, I think you are quite misinformed about Carey. To say "As explained, this is a person who writes, composes and performs their '''own''' musical material. Carey does all of these, even on her first six studio albums, with asssitance from other songwriters and producers" is not correct. On her first six albums, Mariah is credited as the '''sole''' songwriter for 99% of her songs, and she also co-composed all of their melodic structures. She continues to co-write the lyrics and melodies to all of her songs to this day. Out of any contemporary singer to day, with the exception of Madonna, too, Mariah Carey is a singer-songwriter. Carey isn't just a contemporary pop singer who writes or co-writes her own songs as in a sentence or two like most singers (Katy Perry), Carey does indeed write, compose and perform the lyrics ''and'' melodies that she performs. What makes ], ] and ] different? — ] 15:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::: Adele and Madonna indeed are singer-songwriters, where people like Lady Gaga, Jessie J, and Katy Perry are ''singers and songwriters'' for co-writing their material (though in their cases more than just a sentence or two) and have written songs for other singers (i.e. Gaga co-wrote "Hypnotico" by Jennifer Lopez, Jessie co-wrote "Party in the USA" for Miley Cyrus, KP co-wrote "Passenger" by Britney Spears and "Black Widow" by Iggy Azaela). There are also songs they have written solely by themselves ("You and I" by Gaga, "Big White Room" by Jessie, "Thinking of You" by KP). If one thing is certain, it gets confusing when talking about those who are singer-songwriters and those who are singers and songwriters. Mariah also co-wrote for the band Allure. '''] (] / ])''' 16:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::: I think of Gaga and Jessie as singer-songwriters, but not Katy Perry. I'm skeptical about how much of her Dr. Luke produced songs she actually writes. Mariah Carey ''is'' a singer-songwriter. — ] 16:08, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::: No, they are singers and songwriters, not singer-songwriters as they don't do as much writing, composing, etc. as people like Madonna. I could be wrong, but once heard that songwriters are listed in song infoboxes in order of who wrote the most, and producers are listed in order of who produced the most. If this is the case, then KP writes more of her songs than the others involved since she gets listed first in songwriters field, no matter how often Dr. Luke appears. Same idea for Mariah's articles where she is listed first in the field. KP also solely wrote six of her songs on ''Katy Hudson'' and three of her tracks on ''One of the Boys''. There's also the songs she co-wrote for others, which also includes Selena Gomez & The Scene, Jessie James, Kelly Clarkson, and Leslie Roy. This is not guaranteed to total above 50% for someone who is listed first, though. '''] (] / ])''' 16:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Carey isn't credited as the sole songwriter or producer of any song on her first six albums (see '']'', '']'', '']'', '']'', '']'' and '']'', where every song is composed with another person). Compare this with a true singer-songwriter, like ] or ]; their discographies show that almost all songs are written, composed and performed by themselves. This is, of course, not an absolute rule, singer-songwriters are going to collaborate with others on their songs, but it is expected that most of their material is to be written, composed and performed by themselves. I think it's also important this term isn't interpreted narrowly in the fields of writing and composition. The Misplaced Pages article explains that a "singer-songwriter" isn't someone who simply writes and performs their own songs, its a distinct form of artistry within the folk/acoustic tradition with particular stylistic conventions that can almost be seen as a genre of music in itself. The page explains " "singer-songwriter" is used to define popular music artists who write and perform their own material, which is often self-accompanied generally on acoustic guitar or piano. Such an artist performs the roles of composer, lyricist, vocalist, instrumentalist, and often self-manager. lyrics are personal, but veiled by elaborate metaphors and vague imagery similarly straightforward and spare sound that placed emphasis on the song itself." AllMusic writes that "" |
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:::::::: Carey isn't involved in the folk/acoustic tradition, she doesn't play guitar or piano when composing her songs and she hasn't written or produced any song by herself. These are all the typical conventions of a singer-songwriter and Carey doesn't fit them. Also, I've noticed that the credentials of other artists have been questioned, and I think they're right to be questioned, however, this is a discussion about what Carey is and I think ''this'' discussion should focus on that. If it is believed this term is being attributed wrongly to others then a similar discussion should be taken to that talk page, or perhaps a project-wide discussion should be initialised with ] or ]? I know that myself, and I'm sure others, would be happy to weigh in on further discussions on this issue. Best, —'']'' | ] 17:26, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::: (I'm apologising now for the length of the above, but this is quite complex.) —'']'' | ] 17:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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Gaga definitely comes up with those wacky melodies. And lol, writers are not listed in the info box per how much they contributed. JennKR, please educate yourself about Carey and her music. Buy the CDs for ''Emotions'', ''Music Box'', ''Daydream'' and ''Butterfly'', look in the booklet and you will see that aside from eight songs, excluding covers of course, that Carey '''wrote all of the lyrics for all of the other songs by ''herself'',''' and co-composed the melodic structures to each and every one of them (]). Carey has also said that she knows how to play a piano but prefers someone else to play it while she conceptualises the melody. You don't need to always have a guitar or piano on stage with you to be a "singer-songwriter", we aren't in the 60s and 70s anymore. The term "singer-songwriter" applies to singers such as Madonna, Adele, Taylor Swift, Mariah Carey, Lady Gaga, Jessie J, Alicia Keys. — ] 20:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Calvin999}} Then why does the track listing of all six albums listed above not list Carey solely in the "Writers" or "Producers" field for any song? Whether Carey plays the piano in her spare time is irrelevant, its whether she uses it to compose her songs. We may not be in the 60s/70s but the term refers to the tradition of this time, wherein an artist writes, composes and performs their own material by themselves. It does not refer to contemporary pop singers who co-write and co-produce all of their material with others. —'']'' | ] 20:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:: Because whoever did them has just combined it and not done it properly. I trust the booklet printed by her record company more than how whoever inputted into the track list table, hence why I linked ]. It doesn't matter if she directly plays the piano while creating a song, or whether she is instructing someone to play the notes that she is coming up with by humming, singing, etc. According to you, Carey used to be a singer-writer, and is now a singer and songwriter. She may co-write now, but she stills writes, produces, vocal produces, arranges, composes her songs and executively produces her albums. She doesn't let anyone else do something without her involvement. She is more involved with the creative process of making a song than any singer out today. No one else does as much as she does in the studio. The song "Vulnerability (Interlude)" for example was written and produced solely by Carey. — ] 21:15, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::: When I browse ASCAP to compare her songs with their entries in the track listing (I've been comparing two albums I'm familiar with as I own them on casette: ''Mariah Carey'' and ''Emotions''), they match up. Every song is written and produced with someone else, and I understand when you say that she is hugely involved in the creative process (I know quite a few similar artists), but this is still not the convention of the traditional singer-songwriter. Hmm, we're not helped by the fact that we have little policy to guide us on what I call "job titles" (singer, songwriter, actress, etc.), and I'm considering creating a music-project wide discussion in which we could weigh in on. —'']'' | ] 21:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::: ASCAP isn't always reliable. I find that the booklets are the best way of gathering info on who did what. I just watched an interview with Mariah where she says that she writes, co-produces, conceptualises, mixes, masters, does 90% of her background vocals, provides the arrangements for the background vocals by herself. She said that she has always written songs, even before getting a record deal. She would sit and write songs and poems, and that was clearly by herself. Mariah is undoubtedly a singer-songwriter. — ] 21:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::: I've never seen evidence to suggest ASCAP was unreliable, but I'm also not disputing that Carey does the above. What I am disputing is whether Carey should be described as a singer-songwriter because it's not a term that we use to describe someone who simply writes their material. It's something quite distinctive (which I've outlined above) and as she doesn't write or produce by herself (and works with many people each album), nor meets any of the other conventions, she doesn't present herself as one. —'']'' | ] 21:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::: Pinging {{u|Acalamari}}, who often edits articles accordingly to whether people are singer-songwriters/singers and songwriters, for input. '''] (] / ])''' 22:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::: She doesn't just write the songs though. Is there any evidence to suggest that people like Bob Dylan everything by himself? Did he produce his vocals? Did he mix the songs? Did he master them? Carey always highlights herself as a singer-songwriter in interviews. In the same interview I just watched, she picked out how in a magazine she was featured in, she was simply referred to as a 'singer', which angered her, and that P Diddy was referred to as a musician, actor, businessman, philanthropist, clothing designer etc. Mariah identifies as a singer-songwriter. Gaga once said "I'm a songwriter at heart". — ] 22:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::: I've opened a RfC ] to gage community opinion. To be honest, I think discusion should go beyond this RfC into creating more definitive guidelines around "job titles" and I hope the decision goes some way in grounding what terms we use. —'']'' | ] 22:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Sorry for the late reply to the ping. Since Mariah is not "...closely associated with the folk-acoustic tradition.", I would just list her as a singer and a songwriter, rather than a singer-songwriter. ] 14:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC) |
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== Featured article status == |
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This article was used as an example of poor quality at ] recently and I popped over to take a look. I was shocked at how poor it is. It is way too long and detailed, with an over-abundance of trivial quotes and inessential information. It looks like it has been written by fans. I have not yet looked at whether it passed FAC in 2007 looking like this, or whether it was better and has deteriorated. In any case it certainly does not currently meet Featured Article criteria. Is there any appetite for getting it (back?) in shape? Or should we look at a Featured Article Review? --] (]) 09:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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: From my experience, I would assume (and conversations upthread on talk suggest as much) that it's both. The FA criteria were more lax in 2007, and the subject's high profile means it is a magnet for IPs to wander in and add whatever they feel like, whether or not it actually improves the article. I believe {{u|SNUGGUMS}}, who recently took ] through FA, has already made a start of trimming some of the cruft out, and is continuing to do so. I'm sure they'd be up for help in getting it back into shape. Perhaps a delist and a GA review would work? ] ] ] 09:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::Sounds good. My preference would be for just improving the article without a lot of bureaucracy, but it will be a lot of work. --] (]) 09:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::I would say that a format FAR would be beneficial for the article. I do see users posting here regarding ] being used and two of them are questioning the reliability of the authors. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 09:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::We just discussed the article size at ] above; like I stated there, "The article size looks to be of usual, or close to usual length, for a singer with Carey's success (legend and all that). And there are articles on Misplaced Pages bigger than this one." As for the article being poor, it isn't; not even close. But I'll leave the changes to this article for others to handle. I mainly have it on my ] to look out for the birthdate drama that keeps coming up at this article. ] (]) 10:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Flyer22, you are right, the article is definitely not poor, however, for FA we must maintain a high high standard, which sadly the article has lost over time. That's what we are trying to achieve. Reducing the fluff goes a long way to improve the size, that is not related to article size. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 11:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::Like Ritchie333 mentioned above, the WP:FA standards were different back in 2007. Either way, the level of quality that is this article is what I generally see all around Misplaced Pages regarding ] or WP:FA ] singer articles. John is talking about is a heated discussion, and it's bound to have editors going to articles that are pointed out there, including to make a point opposite of what is pointed out there. ] (]) 11:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::As Ritchie and Flyer have indicated, FA and GA criteria were much less demanding several years ago. This passed an FAC in 2006 and survived 2 FAR's in 2007. Upon looking through the references, I'm not seeing too many issues with quality level except for Fox News and New York Post, which I'm certain would not be accepted in FAC's nowadays. Several aren't quite correctly formatted, and I haven't yet checked for deadlinks, but I do believe this article is salvageable unlike ] (hence I raised ] as it is beyond repair). Thank you IndianBio for helping reduce the fluff. '''] (] / ])''' 15:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::Well said SNUGGUMS, and good work indeed IndianBio for reducing the amount of cruft somewhat. It still needs some work I think. References cleanup, fewer and shorter quotes, and a further cull of fancruft and this article will be worthy of its star. --] (]) 16:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::On a side note, may I recommend any serious article writer installs ] - if you use {{tl|sfn}} or {{tl|harvnb}}, they are an invaluable tool for spotting obvious reference howlers (eg: wrong year, typo in surname, year missing etc). ] ] ] 20:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Thank you very much Ritchie- looks very useful indeed! '''] (] / ])''' 20:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::SNUGGUMS, you think that ] and '']'' would not be accepted in a WP:FA today? Why do you feel this way? I know that people have issues with those sources, but they often count as ]...even in WP:BLPs. ] (]) 22:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::While not always deemed unreliable, they aren't exactly top-notch. NY Post is often regarded as one of the least reputable papers in the state, and Fox News is often criticized for creating hoaxes about liberals (notably Barack Obama). They might or might not be accepted in WP:GA's, but WP:FA demand the best possible quality sources. '''] (] / ])''' 22:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::Good explanation; I agree. And for the record, I was also taking uncontentious material into account when I commented about Fox News and ''New York Post'' above. ] (]) 22:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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{{outdent}} ]. Sources like that wouldn't be considered adequate for an FA in 2014, especially not a BLP. --] (]) 23:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:I would again like to bring everyone's attention to this section ] which is a primary content addition. Can we please get this book clarified as an authoritative source? —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 11:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::I'll search ]'s background and find some alternative sources in case his 1998 biography on her isn't usable..... '''] (] / ])''' 03:07, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::If Nickson is found to be unreliable then this article is kinda gone. 90% of the background and many of the articles in ] project is based on his book. :( —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 04:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::I haven't reached reliability conclusions yet, but will note this: there are currently 357 footnotes. Out of these, 39 are from Nickson's book. Not sure yet if that would be worrisome. '''] (] / ])''' 04:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Snuggums, its not the number of times its been used, its the amount of content that it is being sourced, that is huge. And for this reason I'm letting it spill to the song articles also which rely on the book. Worrisome nonetheless. LEt us know what you can find. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 04:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::Good news; after looking through his works, I don't really see things to be worried about. Some might view him as biased for his praise of her, but it isn't really a biased book as far as I'm concerned. '''] (] / ])''' 06:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Even if Chris Nickson is biased as a source, that, per ], does not disqualify him as a source. And as for the birth date matter, SNUGGUMS, considering past passionate debate about Carey's birth date at this talk page, including ], I'm not sure that . Then again, we could simply point to that aforementioned WP:RfC when someone challenges including both birth dates. ] (]) 08:30, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Also, the '']'' magazine source is currently a ]. And I would have left in the '']'' magazine source, which went through extra lengths to validate Carey's birth date. ''People'' magazine is one of the more reputable sources on this matter, and, in 2013, was deemed a more than adequate source for celebrity information at the ]. Its reliability is also noted in that aforementioned WP:RfC above. ] (]) 08:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::While the ''People'' website does suggest a 1969 birth, I can find no article by them talking about looking into her records or even any photos of them. The only site I've seen talk about them searching records is NNDB, which has been declared unreliable in multiple RSN conversations. '''] (] / ])''' 15:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Yeah, I did notice that ] was pointing to the ] source as supporting what ''People'' magazine did, and I was already aware of , but I figured that its use must be an exception in this case, since it was used in combination with the ''People'' source in the Mariah Carey article without any objection from very experienced Misplaced Pages editors. I also considered that Tenebrae might have a better source supporting ''People'' magazine going the extra length to validate Carey's birth date. I would ask Tenebrae about this, but he or she has not been editing Misplaced Pages (at least under the Tenebrae account) since he or she was temporarily blocked months ago. ] (]) 23:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I doubt this would make a very compelling exception; as I previously told Tenebrae, NNDB could easily have been fabricating details given its unreliability. Something tells me viewers previously overlooked the NNDB link and assumed that the quote was from the ''People'' website. '''] (] / ])''' 23:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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== Ethnicity == |
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I know that Mariah has stated that her father is half Venezuelan but according to these two links - http://www.wargs.com/other/carey.html & https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X42X-3B5, her paternal grandfather was from Cuba and likely lied about his background to avoid anti-Cuban backlash. ] (]) 14:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*It does say that he was born in Cuba in the first link you provided; I was unable to connect to the second site. I don't think there is any doubt that he lived in Venezuela for probably the bulk of his life prior to coming to the US. If it seems relevant to Mariah, the fact that her dad was born in Cuba but lived in Venezuela could be added——though, I'd probably add it as a note at the bottom of the page, if anywhere. Considering her dad was not a major player in her life, nor are the finer details of his heritage particularly relevant to who she is, I would not include it in the body of the article.--Esprit15d • <small>]</small> • <small>]</small> 14:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC) |
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== Adult contemporary? == |
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Those who adding adult contemporary music (which is a style, not a genre) in the infobox from Mariah's song information pages. She had nothing to do with AC. ] (]) 05:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC) |
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== net worth == |
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== net worth == |
MC's Mother on the Oprah show stated her daughter was born in 1970. If you go on Youtube you will find a video entitled "Mariah Carey's Mother Set's the Record Straight on Mariah's Father!" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.120.182.58 (talk) 07:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
MC birthday is listed as 3 27 70 in the article. This is disputed. The current source is a bias book by a fan that speaks over glowingly of MC. Please correct the article to 1969 or 1970. I feel both need to be included here bc her birthyear is disputed. People magazine(published by very reputable/reliable TIME INC) is a reputable source. Per them here http://www.people.com/people/mariah_carey/biography her bday is 3 27 69. Since MC came out in 1990 People has had her bday as 3 27 69. They based this not just on the info given to them by Columbia Records but also off of MC's NY ID(they got it in the 90s before the US made all drivers license and state's ID information private). Both years of 1969 or 1970 need to be included here. Thanks. Thanks. 71.191.244.33 (talk) 01:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
71.191.244.33 (talk) 01:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Not done: People.com is incorrect on her birth year. The vast majority of published reliable sources, including recent ones celebrating her birthday and mentioning her age, have it correct as 1970. Teammm 
Not done Daily Mail is not a reliable source. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)