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Revision as of 09:26, 19 July 2006

Lucca

Hi! I gave a glance to the Lucca article and everything seems ok. The image are properly sets on alternating sides to avoid overlapping with the infobox, for what I can see. Let me know. user:Attilios

Thanks, but in my browser the contents and infobox still overlap. I'll try in another browser tomorrow.Itsmejudith 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Post-fordism

Just wanted to say thanks for helping this article along. -Halidecyphon 22:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Hi Itsmejudith,

Can we please discuss the Bat Ye'or case together and then after we have organized our arguments, present them to Pecher and Merzbow.

Pecher's arguments can be summerized to the followings:

• "Lewis does not need to approve of her, but he ackonowledges her significance."
• Here are some collections of reviews of her works: http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Pecher/The_Dhimmi and http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Pecher/The_Decline

My arguments:

• Bernard Lewis doesn't quote her.
• Lewis in his book Jews of Islam under the footnote for the sentence:"Two stereotypes dominate most of what has been written on tolerance and intolerance in the Islamic world", after mentioning some works by scholars such as Tritton, Goitein, Fattal, Stillman, Cohen; in the last two sentences, He puts her along with Karl Binswanger who is very critical of what he calls the "dogmatic Islamophilia" of many orientalists! Here is the exact quote:

" Two other works, which emphasize the negative aspects of the Muslim record, are Bat Ye'or, "name of a book", and Karl Binswanger, "name of a book". The latter is very critical of what he calls the "dogmatic Islamophilia" of many orientalists. "

• Sidney H. Griffith stated that there is an unfortunate polemical tone in her work. (See Bat Ye'or section: controversary

• These are some websites that I am not sure whether are reliable enough or not:

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/295 says:

But many of the 70 students attending her Oct. 15 lecture at Georgetown University on "The Ideology of Jihad, Dhimmitude and Human Rights" walked out. Julia Segall, president of the Georgetown Israel Alliance, and Daniel Spector, president of the Jewish Student Alliance, called the lecture a "disaster" in Friday's edition of Hoya, a student newspaper.Bat Ye'or and Mr. Littman "made no effort to make a clear distinction between pure, harmonious Islam and the acts of a few who falsely claim to act in the name of Islam," they wrote. ...Mr. Littman shrugged off the fracas."The Muslim students who were attending were unhappy with what we were saying and so they pressured the Jews," he said. "And the Jews collapsed. They've become dhimmis." Bat Ye'or also was criticized by John Esposito, director of Georgetown University's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, for lacking academic credentials. She studied at the University of London's School of Archaeology and at the University of Geneva, but never graduated. Imam Rashied Omar, a Capetown (South Africa) University academic pursuing his doctorate in religion and violence at the University of Notre Dame, said that Bat Ye'or's findings are a minority view that contrasts with a large portion of extant literature on medieval Jewish-Muslim-Christian relations.Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude.

"Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude."

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/005178.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2006/01/009895print.html

This one says:

"Lewis has never yet acknowledged his behind-the-scenes belittling of Bat Ye'or and his own refusal to recognize that the history of dhimmitude -- a word he likes to mock as "dhimmi-tude," as if it is a preposterous, rather than useful, addition to the lexicon -- matters, is relevant, is center-stage. Instead we are supposed to believe the word itself is illegitimate. No one, apparently, can add to the wordhoard's store, even when the word turns out to be most apt and most useful. He has never engaged sympathetically with what is presented in The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam. He has never reviewed the book, never written about it. Instead he just goes around, ignoring or denigrating in various sly ways (that "dhimmi-tude") the work of Bat Ye'or."

And this one http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1197

says that: "Lewis has in the past been unwilling to endorse the scholarship of Bat Ye'or, describing it as "too polemical."

Best wishes, --Aminz 23:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, I was thinking of sending an email to Esposito or Lewis and asking their opinion about credibility of Bat Ye'or as an "academic reliable source". I can do it myself but was thinking maybe it would be better if you ask (since you have the same major as them and know them better than me). Esposito's email is jle2@georgetown.edu

Would you please let me know what you think? Thanks --Aminz 00:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of Bat Ye'or

In "State of 'dhimmitude' seen as threat to Christians, Jews" by Jula Duin ("Washington Times," October 30, 2002) { The archive is no longer available at the washington times website (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021030-10490720.htm) but,

A copy of that could be found elsewhere and here for example: http://hss.fullerton.edu/comparative/islam.htm (The link belongs to the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at CSUF)

Here is the article. It contains criticisms of Bat Ye'or from several people and notably by John Esposito:

Egyptian-born historian Bat Ye'or and her husband, David Littman, have been making the rounds of several campuses this month to lecture on "dhimmitude," a word she coined to describe the status of Christians and Jews under Islamic governments.

Muslims have visited exile, persecution, deportations, massacres and other humiliations on non-Muslims for almost 1,400 years, she has told students at Georgetown, Brown, Yale and Brandeis universities.

Muslim armies steamrolled over North Africa, the Middle East and Spain for five centuries after the death of Muhammad in 632, says Bat Ye'or, a pen name meaning "daughter of the Nile." In her two most recent books, "Islam and Dhimmitude" and "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," she describes how magnificent basilicas and monasteries of Egypt, Syria and Mesopotamia were left in smoking ruins by Muslims from the eighth to 10th centuries.

Spain, she says, was pillaged and devastated many times: Zamora in 981, Barcelona in 987, Santiago de Compostela in 997. In 1000, Castile was ravaged, its Christian population either killed or enslaved and deported. In 1096, Pope Urban II set the Crusades in motion by calling on Christians to take back the conquered lands.

The golden age of Muslim rule in Spain from the eighth to the 15th century was largely myth, Bat Ye'or says, and dhimmitude is in effect today in Islamic-ruled Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, parts of Indonesia and northern Nigeria.

Bat Ye'or has had hearings in some quarters, including her 1997 and 2001 appearances before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Congressional Human Rights Caucus. But many of the 70 students attending her Oct. 15 lecture at Georgetown University on "The Ideology of Jihad, Dhimmitude and Human Rights" walked out.

Julia Segall, president of the Georgetown Israel Alliance, and Daniel Spector, president of the Jewish Student Alliance, called the lecture a "disaster" in Friday's edition of Hoya, a student newspaper.

Bat Ye'or and Mr. Littman "made no effort to make a clear distinction between pure, harmonious Islam and the acts of a few who falsely claim to act in the name of Islam," they wrote.

In the same issue, dissenting student Scott Borer-Miller criticized the university for its treatment of Bat Ye'or and its "anti-Zionist environment where supporting Israel is uncool."

Mr. Littman shrugged off the fracas.

"The Muslim students who were attending were unhappy with what we were saying and so they pressured the Jews," he said. "And the Jews collapsed. They've become dhimmis."

Bat Ye'or also was criticized by John Esposito, director of Georgetown University's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, for lacking academic credentials. She studied at the University of London's School of Archaeology and at the University of Geneva, but never graduated.

Paul Marshall, a senior fellow at the Center for Religious Freedom, said Bat Ye'or's research into Turkish, Persian and Arabic documents dating back to the eighth century has not been contested.

"What's notable is don't attempt to refute her work, which is scholarly and documented," he said. "Those who oppose it owe it to her to engage her work at the scholarly level, which it deserves."

Imam Rashied Omar, a Capetown (South Africa) University academic pursuing his doctorate in religion and violence at the University of Notre Dame, said that Bat Ye'or's findings are a minority view that contrasts with a large portion of extant literature on medieval Jewish-Muslim-Christian relations.

"That's not to say there was no oppression," he said, "but it's well-known that Jews sought refuge under Muslim empires. Jews and Christians obtained greater freedom and abilities to express their religious identities under Muslim rule than was the case under Christian rule."

Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude.

"Monotheistic religions are always exclusivist," he said, "so how are they going to deal with other monotheistic peoples? Muslims have showed their civilization has a better mechanism in which to do so because they give sanctity to other monotheists. It was a just system that took the dignity of all human beings into consideration. Muslims are not saying we treated them well or that it was an ideal situation."

You can find this in many other websites as well. --Aminz 07:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Itsmejudith, good work on the Dhimmi article. His Excellency... 17:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Is Wheatcroft's and Albert Hourani's book on Dhimmi? If yes, that would be great! BTW, I think we have established that Esposito has criticized Bat Ye'or, no further emailing is needed but thanks anyway. Regards, --Aminz 07:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much Itsmejudith for the sources. It is great. If those books are available at Amazon, one can have access to all of it online (which is great!). I'll work on the article slowly. If, during your research, you found an interesting quote, it would be great if you could add it to the article. Thanks a lot again. --Aminz 23:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you know that Amazon has added the "Amazon Online Reader" feature for many books. I don't have to buy the books. I can simply read them without buying them. That's great! I also do have access to the UC Berkeley Libarary. I am currently reading Lewis's work which is written nicely whenever I am free. After that, I will pick another book. And yes, thanks to Merzbow! He is a good editor. --Aminz 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Itsyoujudith, just wanted to drop you a note and say how refreshing it is to see some academic infusion into articles like Dhimmi. I've followed a bit what you've had to say and it's encouraging in terms of getting Dhimmi well into NPOV-land. I look forward to seeing your further contributions to Misplaced Pages. Thanks. Netscott 10:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well a lack of response isn't the most encouraging sign... but I suppose you're busy. :-) Netscott 23:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --Aminz 08:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your edits to the article. --Aminz 21:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Community is now the Core Topics COTF

You showed support for Amazon rainforest at Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Core topics/Core topics COTF. This article was selected as our collaboration. Hope you can help.

Maurreen 08:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

ANI entry

Hi there. This has alot to do with the "Criticism of Islam" page. It's clear to me that Merzbow is trying to silence my participation in articles using these underhanded tactics. If you have any input, please do participate: WP:ANI#Abuse_of_Warning_Templates_By_Merzbow His Excellency... 04:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the Help

Thanks for going to Persecution of Pagans and making it better.Hypnosadist 19:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources for Criticism of Islam

This is the Best/Worst idea ive heard for this page, if WE(the editors on the page) were to succeed then it could really help. BUT it is very likely to take a lot of energy and time with a lot of insulting going on. I've been around this block so i think one of the most important things is the academic bias at different times in the last hundred years. No-one is unbiased especially on this subject(Islam) and that a full on propaganda war is underway by BOTH/ALL sides in all media hence on the Net hence on wikipedia. The study of this 3rd wave (information) war is my speciality, with RE as my humanity (and long term intrest) in a science based education the "Electronic Intafada" and all its battlefields including the one we are on now!Hypnosadist 21:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Re varied interests

Hi Judith. I am not sure if that's true. However, i may agree about the quality of those interests. C'est un plaisir de vous connaître. Cheers -- Szvest 10:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

My Arbcomm case

Hey. Thanks for your comments on my arbcomm case. That's probably the first time anyone said anything nice about my contributions to an actual article. So much of their case is about how I say things, where so much of mine is about the effect all this has on the actual content. Where my actions make talk pages look bad (IMO I make them look more interesting, but what do I know?), theirs destroy articles and create the impression that Misplaced Pages endorses political motives (yes, political...I don't think any of this has an ounce to do with religion or history). Anyway I really appreciate your comments. :) His Excellency... 13:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If you don't cite any actual evidence in the way of diffs or edits that H.E. has made, the arbcom will probably ignore what you said. Experience talking. --Woohookitty 05:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep I understand you. It's not easy. But on the other hand, if you don't do that, your words will fall on deaf ears. If I can help at all, let me know. And btw, here are all of his H.E.'s edits under that name. Might help you a bit. --Woohookitty 08:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Re Dhimmi

Bonsoir Judith. Let me confess to you that i relatively stopped contributing or debating any religion-related article since a good time now. However this wouldn't stop me from congratulating you for the very good effort and courage to bring a different approach to editing those kind of articles. I also admire your good knowledge of academic research. I believe you do not have to change or tweek any of your manners in doing so. Cheers -- Szvest 18:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi

Hi Itsmejudith, How are you?

Itsmejudith, I can see lots of discussions on the talk page since last week. Would you please let me know the discussions in which sections of the discussion page is not settled down yet, so that I would be able to follow it. Thanks --Aminz 23:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks so much for your efforts to the Dhimmi article.

I think Hypnosadist‎ is online. I've asked him --Aminz 23:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Festa del Redentore

Nice work on Festa del Redentore, thanks! -Harmil 18:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration

You presence is requested at the Arbitration Re: Removal of humus sapiens admin privilages due to administrative abuse. Please click Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration Israel Article