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Ethnic Chaldeans?

Unless someone can provide accredited and mainstream academic study which proves a clear historical, ethnic, geographical and linguistic link between the modern Chaldean Catholics of Northern Iraq and the extinct Chaldean tribes of south eastern Iraq, this article should stay with the consensus that Chaldean Catholics are in fact north Mesopotamian Assyrians who converted to Catholicism in the 17th century AD.

The name Assurayu/Assyrian/Assyria, (together with derivatives of those names such as Athura, Assuristan, Ator, Syria, Syriac, Ashuriyun, Assouri, Turyoyo, Suryoyo etc) have been in constant use to describe both the land and the indigenous people of northern Mesopotamia from the 25th century BC to the 7th century AD in terms of the land, and to the present when describing the people. While there is strong evidence of Assyrian Continuity, there is none whatsoever for Chaldean Continuity. The name was only established in the late 17th century AD, and then only as the name of a church and not a people.

It is noteworthy that the term Assyria (and derivatives of that term) have been used constantly by the Assyrians themselves, in historical record, and by neighbouring peoples for over 4000 years, but in stark contrast the term Chaldean, when used to describe an ethnic group, wholly disappeared in the 6th century BC, and when used to describe a social class of Astrologers and Astronomers (not a race), disappeared in the 2nd century BC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EddieDrood (talk • contribs) 08:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

@EddieDrood You EddieDrood do not get to decide who Chaldeans are, we Chaldeans decide who we are. Chaldeans are ethnically, nationality wise, culturally, and religiously Chaldeans, we are not Assyrians and we will never be Assyrians. The head of the Chaldean Church has constantly said we are not ethnically Assyrians but Chaldeans. YOu are very clearly an anti-Chaldean bigot from the things you said above and you are a fascist who wants to impose his views on others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.158.61.66 (talk) 23:36, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Well Raphael Bidawid would disagree with you, so would mainstream ACADEMIC opinion, by the way, the aforementioned Academic Opinion consists of studies supporting an Assyrian continuity in Northern Iraq, but NONE supporting a Chaldean continuity. Furthermore, none of those Academics are Assyrians. Chaldean in a modern sense is just the name of a church founded in NORTHERN Mesopotamia (what was Assyria) in 1683 AD, where did the name Chaldean exist to describe the Christians of NORTHERN Mesopotamia BEFORE 1683?..in, lets say 1500 AD? 1400 AD? 1200 AD? 1000 AD? 700 AD? 500 AD? 300 AD?, 20 AD? 100 BC?, 300 BC?, 500 BC? 800 BC? 1000 BC? NOWHERE!..HOWEVER, there ARE records of the land and its people being called Assyrians throughout all those periods. Does that not tell you something? The land and its people were ALWAYS called Assyrians or Syrians/Syriacs (both originate from Assyria also).

Why would I be an Anti-Chaldean Bigot? The Chaldeans, who existed in SOUTHEAST Mesopotamia from the 9th to 6th centuries BC, are extinct. Why be bigotted against an extinct race? — Preceding unsigned comment added by EddieDrood (talk • contribs) 10:55, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

You are a major anti-Chaldean bigot who knows nothing about Chaldean history, heritage or culture. All you know is you are a major anti-Chaldean bigot who makes it your life mission to enforce your anti-Chaldean bigotry on others. I consider your vandalism of Chaldean pages and actions a HATE CRIME aimed at ethnically cleansing and ethnically targeting Chaldeans with your bigotry.

At the start of 2003 there were more Chaldeans who lived in Southern Iraq (Basra and other cities) than there were that lived in the North; these where Chaldeans whose families had lived in Southern Iraq for thousands of years. But, I do not expect you to know this because you do not know anything about Chaldean history and culture. All you know is you are an anti-Chaldean bigot with a political agenda, who wants to force your bigotry on others, try your best to ethnically cleanse Chaldeans. The sourced materials provided come from Chaldean Church leaders. NO ONE is in a better position to determine and state who its members are than Chaldean leaders.

Chaldeans and Assyrians are clearly the SAME people

Chaldeans ARE a Subgroup of Assyrians, even former Patriarch Raphael Bidawid admits as such.

FACTS

1.FACT. The Assyrian Church of the East was ALREADY named as such LONG BEFORE a part of that church entered communion with Rome. So much so that the Chaldean Church was ORIGINALLY called the Church of Assyria and Mosul.

2. FACT. The Church of the East, from whence the Chaldean Church sprang was FOUNDED in Sassanid Assyria.

3. FACT. The term Chaldean today is NOT an ethnic term, it is purely denominational, and it was bestowed on those Catholic converts by ROME. The term had been dead for centuries (much like the Chaldeans themselves) since the 5th century BC.

4. FACT. Chaldean Catholics come from NORTHERN MESOPOTAMIA (IE ASSYRIA) and NOT from the far South East where the actual Chaldeans came from. They speak the same language as the Assyrians, they come from Assyria, they have the same names, the same genetic profile, and they were originally called Assyrians....so how on earth can they be not Assyrian???

5. FACT. Assyrian IS an ethnic term. Assyria existed as a named land into the 7th century AD, the Arabs in the middle ages 11th century AD referred to the NATIVE Christian people of Northern Mesopotamia as ASHURIYUN.The Armenians, Georgians, Russians did so too, from the Middle Ages. It is NOT a religious term, but an ethnic one. Many scholars accept Assyrian continuity, NONE accept Chaldean continuity!

6. FACT. The term Syriac actually means and originally meant Assyrian. Scholarly views and the Cinekoy Inscription prove this.

7. If the Chaldeans are not ethnic Assyrians, what ethnicity are they??? They are certainly NOT Ancient Chaldeans, so are they Arabs? Kurds?, Armenians? Greeks? Iranians?..Syriacs?..Syriac MEANS Assyrian originally.

8. FACT. Chaldean Catholics are ethnic Assyrian Catholics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.12.105 (talk) 06:39, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Those labels like Chaldeans and Nestorians are misnomers, attached to Assyrians by Europeans. Those people were known as Assyrians by all their neighbors and as well, by themselves. As for Syriacs, it isnt an ethnic label, there arent such a race as Syriacs, its just a kind of catch-all to describe any christian from the Mid East. Originally though, Syriac meant the same thing as Assyrian, and it derives from Assyrian. Hard to see how Chaldeans can be anything other than Assyrians, I mean, they are from Northern Iraq which was Assyria, their church was called the church of Assyria to start with, and of Mosul....both those places are in the north where the Assyrians live. Also, the church was renamed as Chaldean by the Italians to mark it out from the Assyrian Eastern Church, meaning the Assyrian Church and Assyrian Identity were already there.

Are Chaldeans a Subgroup of Assyrians?

NO, neither is a subgroup of the other. The two names came into existence after the split of the Church of the East. Those who united with Rome were called Chaldeans, and the others were called Assyrians. The name Assyrians was actually given by missionaries after Chaldeans were named by Rome. You have to realize that Assyrians are not an ethnicity, and they are not descendants of the Ancient Assyrians. Two arguments are usually presented to identify Assyrians as an ethnicity that descends from the Ancient Assyrians. First, they live in northern Iraq which was part of the lands of Assyria. However, you should know that Chaldea in 612 BC destroyed Nineveh and the Assyrian empire. In its place, Chaldeans set up a new empire. So, those people living in the north could as well be Chaldeans. No one knows how many Assyrians were killed in that war or how many Chaldeans moved north. Thus, the argument that Assyrians descend from Ancient Assyrians has no basis! The second argument that is usually presented is that the name Suraya/Suroyo, which people from all the three church denomination use, comes from Aššurayu. Saying that the word "Suraya" (Syriac: ܣܘܪܝܐ) comes from the word "Assyrian" (Syriac: ܐܫܘܪܝܐ) is the worst argument that I have heard from a non-Chaldean. Anyone who knows Aramaic knows that there is a big difference between the letters (ܣ and ܐܫ). If you claim that the rest of the word namely (ܘܪܝܐ) is the same (which by the way means "of or from" in Aramaic, but it is not a stand alone word), then you should know that there are many more words that share the same letters (ܟܘܪܝܐ "Korean" is an example. Are Koreans Assyrians too!???). Let me tell you (and every one who's reading this) the real word that the name Assyrian comes from. In the Assyrian accent of Aramaic (Arabic: اثوري), Assyrians call themselves "Aturayee" (Syriac: ܐܬܘܪܝܐ or ܐܜܘܪܝܐ) (both read atoo-rah-yey) depending on the region they come from. This word, in Aramaic, means "the men of the mountains", which is where Assyrians are located. It has nothing to do with the word "Assyrian" that relates to the Ancient Assyrians. The word that have been hijacked, "Suraya" (Syriac: ܣܘܪܝܐ), has only one meaning which is "Christian" (i.e. The person who believes in Jesus Christ), and it is not derived from the word "Assyrian".--Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 23:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Please stop posting same thing everywhere, see my answer here: Talk:Tel_Skuf#To_Mr._Iraqi_.28who_hides_his_original_identity_.28User:Chaldean.29.29 Shmayo (talk) 01:19, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Since you were jumping back and forth vandalizing any article that has the word "Chaldean" in it, I have deemed it necessary to ensure that your Assyrian Fascist views are clear to every one in Misplaced Pages. I have faithfully tried to clean all these articles from your Assyrian Fascism; however, you seem to be a die hard Assyrian Fascist who revert all attempts of common good. You have even succeeded in letting others (who are neither Chaldean nor Assyrian) see what kind of Assyrian Fascism you and your people are practicing in Misplaced Pages. --Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 02:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Like I said, if you don't like Chaldean Catholics being a part of the ACS people, when take it in Talk:Assyrian people. This is conscious reached in the talk page. Discuss there about the people, don't just do edits that you think are good. Shmayo (talk) 15:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. This article is about denominations. You can take your ethnicity somewhere else. By making changes to this article, you're only exposing your fascist views.--Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 17:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Please read the comment and try to understand. Do you not agree? -> Talk:Assyrian people Shmayo (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

What is it that you don't understand, Shmayo? This article is about Chaldeans. Assyrians can discuss Assyrian People all they want. You are free to discuss your own people. Chaldeans are not interested in discussing Assyrians. --Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 20:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Chaldeans ARE actually Assyrian Catholics. The terms Assyrian and Assyria, and their derivatives, Athora, Assuristan, Athor, Syrian, Syriac etc existed from as far back as the 25th century BC, and remain unbroken. Chaldean Catholic is a modern theological term only, dating from the late 17th century AD. Where there is strong evidence of Assyrian Continuity, together with absolute proof of the continual use of the name, there is no evidence of Chaldean continuity at all, not in historical record, accredited academic study, genetics, geography or linguistics. Shmayo is clearly wrong in claiming the term Assyrian only came into being after the split in the Church of the East, it may have done as a term for the Church of the East, but it is well proven that the ethnic and geographic term existed from at the latest the 21st century BC, and has continued to be used ever since. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EddieDrood (talk • contribs) 08:09, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Erroneous Info

The reference to the events of October 2010 are completely incorrect. The Church at which the massacre occurred was not a Chaldean Catholic Church, rather it was the Syriac Catholic Cathedral.Irish Melkite (talk) 06:23, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I have deleted the sentence "The most notable example of Persecution is the 31 October 2010 attack on Chaldeans during a Sunday Mass (See Murders of Chaldeans and Notable Clergy)." Irish Melkite (talk) 06:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I have also deleted the entire paragraph which read:

"On 31 October 2010, 58 Iraqi Chaldeans were killed by Muslim Extremists while attending Sunday Mass, 78 others were wounded. The attack by Muslim terrorists on the congregation of Our Lady of Salvation Catholic Church was the bloodiest single attack on an Iraqi Christian church in recent history. In responding to the attack, the White House issued a generic statement, saying the “United States strongly condemns this senseless act of hostage taking and violence by terrorists linked to al-Qaida in Iraq that occurred Sunday in Baghdad killing so many innocent Iraqis.” The White House did not mention that the victims were Christians or that they had been attending church. A prominent American Jewish leader agreed. “We are stunned by the barbarity of this onslaught. We share the grief of the survivors, the families of victims, and our many friends in Christian communities worldwide,” said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Associate Dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "

and am moving it to the article on the Syriac Catholic Church, with appropriate changes from Chaldean to Syriac in the text Irish Melkite (talk) 06:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Lol to find proof of the Chaldeans being linked to the Ancient Babylonians and not being assyrians (THANK GOD), look at the stamp on this page itself, and read it and then come back and talk. Also proof of assyrians being savages of the mountians like the name clearly states "Nashit Turra" (people of the mountains), look at WW1 flag of the Assyrians and tell me that the British didn't create them out of thin air to have them fight the turks. I am Chaldean you dumb uneducated author, therefor, I AM YOUr fATHER

1. Wilhelm Baum and Dietmar Winkler: The Church of the East: A Concise History. London: RoutledgeCurzon, 2003. page 135.
2. {{cite web|url=http://www.newsmax.com/KenTimmerman/joseph-kassab-christians-iraq/2010/11/02/id/375698 |title=Muslim Terrorists Murder 58 Iraqi Christians in Church|accessdate=2010-11-14}

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