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Revision as of 07:10, 3 April 2015

Wife

I don't think his wife was Harari. I remember in one book that tired to show that he was most likely a Somali using the people he interacted with and it included his wife. AcidSnow (talk) 20:25, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Nur ibn Mujahid

I've encountered supposed descendants of his who are Mareḥan Somalis who actually come from and lived in Harar (one of them even started a site for him once) however is there any historical indication that he was a Somali? Do the inhabitants of Harar acknowledge him as such? Are his origins known well? I imagine his Somali origins are concrete? Given what even you said about Somalis' role in the "creation" of the Harari ethnic group as we know it today. Awale-Abdi (talk) 20:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

It is fairly well-established that Nur ibn Mujahid was a Somali of the Marehan clan, from the Ahl Suhawyan sublineage . Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Well thanks, for the link. But may I ask what book that's specifically from? Awale-Abdi (talk) 20:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

It's "Nur Ibn Muhamed" by Harvel Sebastian (noted at the bottom). By the way, is that not you here indicating the same thing? Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:09, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Lol, you tracked me down on facebook? And yeah, I just sort of trusted you and your work on wiki here back then but lately I've been trying to 'archive' what I know about Somali history and would like sources for what I'm archiving. I share some historical facts with people at times and would like to be able to source what I'm saying with credible sources, people shouldn't just trust what I'm saying. Anyway, thanks a lot, man. Awale-Abdi (talk) 21:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Nah, I just typed Ahl Suhawyan and there you were. lol Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 22:39, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Lol. Take care. Awale-Abdi (talk)

Somalis did not create the Harari ethnicity, the Hararis were around long before the founding of Harar. Harari234 (talk) 16:58, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm well are... In fact there's some proof that there are "Harari" loanwords (more specifically Southern Ethio-Semitic) in Somali , but it's just that the current "ethnicity" as we know it owes a lot of its "existence" to Somali figures like Nur ibn Mujahid & has a lot of weird dubious connections to Somalis (claiming an ancestor shared with the Sheekhaal clan etc.) but I dunno why you felt the need to post this on my page; knowing that Southern Ethio-Semitic peoples ancestral to Hararis existed requires only common sense. Awale-Abdi (talk) 09:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The Walasma were not Somal. You can go around editing wikipedia but it doesnt change the facts. On your recent edit you said walasma are somali because of the saints. Whom are the saints berkhedle? the arab? . The saints did not create ethnic groups. Somalis existed before the saints arrived from Arabia. I know this is somewhat of a surprise to you. If an Arab steps foot into the horn he doesnt go into a transformation machine and become somali. You are trying to desperately connect your darod clan with walasma. You dont simply say they share ancestors so they are somali. If that was the case then Amharas are Somali. De la editor (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

^ Lol, you gave me a good laugh, khaayo. These saints were likely never 'Arab' and if they were they were not ancestral to Somali groups and just claimed to be so for religious purposes (the genetic data on Somalis shows that there's really no Arab input in them) but the fact here is that anyone in history within the Horn who claims a descent from them is essentially a Somali and nothing else unless to you all Somali dynasties (Gareen, Warsangali etc.) including all modern Somalis, Hararis and so on are "Arabs". Aw Barkhadle wrote a predecessor to a type of Somali-Arabic script used across the Middle Ages meaning he even spoke Somali, in fact historians who knew of this genealogy immediately assumed the dynasty was "native" or "native-esque" because of this claimed ancestry . Also, you're a real comedian if you think his descent from 3ali (The Prophet's cousin) is real-> it's completely impossible (if you believe it-> then you really are hilarious) that he was a descendant of 7assan, it's just a claimed ancestry.

Also, Barkhadle isn't their ancestor-> it's a "legendary" ancestry (didn't know that?). Harari historians and some oral traditions consider him the dynasty's ancestor but he wasn't-> for one it's impossible because the genealogy claims he is 3umar's ancestor via 5 generations (generation= 25 years...) but they were both born around the 13th Century or so, there's also no record if I recall correctly of the Saint ever having sons. Their more accepted and more frequently shared genealogy is the one that ties them to the Darod clan and its ancestor. Unless you think all Darods are "Arab"-> I don't know why you're posting on my page. Seriously, man. Never challenge someone with a visibly greater knowledge of something than you-> it ends in embarrassment usually.

And "the fact" here is (my friend) that most historians like I.M Lewis who studied the Walashma noted how Somali influenced they were referring to them as anything between Somalized Arabs and Arabized Somalis. Oh, and your statement that they didn't go around "creating ethnic groups" take mere common sense to make-> I know more about Somali & Horn genetics and history then you'll ever know, so I know Somalis existed for a while before the Middle Ages but thanks for the heads up (btw, I must compliment your grammar, great stuff), I really needed your help in knowing that... It also says something that despite these supposed "Arab incursions"-> Somalis show no Arabian admixture whatsoever. Not even Arabian Haplogroups, our variant of J-M267 which occurs rarely is not associated with Arabians.

Another interesting tidbit, my friend-> The Walashma practiced "Agnatic Seniority Succession" which is not at all an 'Arab' tradition (never practiced among Arabians, ever ;) ) instead it's a known Somali & even Agaw people inheritance tradition. So even their inheritance custom was native. But I'm sure you knew nothing of this. That inheritance tradition is a fact btw, lol.

Anyway, take care and don't post on my page ever again. Awale-Abdi (talk) 22:18, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

But this is getting real fun... First they were "Argobba" & now they're "Arab". What's next? Were they Amharas? Awale-Abdi (talk) 22:30, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I just gave you a source that said the saint was Arab. You can act like you didnt see it all you want I dont care. It just shows your an idiot. Abadir and the other saints are noted for arriving from the Arabian peninsula. I know it is hard for you to comprehend that in your big empty head. Another idiotic statement "Somalis have no arab blood" You must be a pure bred African Zebra. You dimwit do you even know that Somalia is in the Arab league. De la editor (talk) 22:37, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

^ I gave you various sources too, my incredibly intelligent friend with a high IQ ;). Also, it's common knowledge in population genetics that Somalis have no Arab admixture, Somalia joined the Arab League for cultural and economic reasons (various reasons really). Here is peer-reviewed paper showing you that Somalis have no Arabian admixture whatsoever: . Here's another btw: <- just for fun. You're the "idiot" here. Seriously those are recent peer-reviewed papers showing that Somalis have no Arab admixture whatsoever. We have Middle Eastern ancestry but it's very ancient and pre-dates the Islamization of Somalia by thousands of years. I'm not even joking with you here but you can ignore those peer-reviewed papers which btw are shared on the Somalis page if you want, your choice. Those papers make some mistakes I pointed out in my blog post but their point that we have ancient Middle Eastern ancestry and no Arab admixture is true indeed. ;) <- This is not debatable.

Again, do not ever challenge people who know more than you-> it gets VERY embarrassing. lol. Ask middayexpress-> he knows the same things I do about genetics anyone with a functional IQ over 70 and whose read genetic papers on Somalis and Ethiopians knows what I just told you but apparently you don't but you seem to think you can dictate Horn history, what a man. lol, man. I'm getting good laughs here...But tell me this... If you think Somalis have Arab ancestry then why point out how "Arab" these dynasties are in your opinion? I mean if all Somalis have Arab ancestors like they do-> what's the difference between the Walashma and Somalis? I'm confused? But I don't expect much critical thinking from you here, no prob, relax.Awale-Abdi (talk) 22:47, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I posted this on your page to put an end to all this:

I'm going to try and quickly get this by in a respectful manner bereft of snarky comments and such:

• Somalis have West Asian/ Middle Eastern ancestry in gross amounts. I.e. a recent paper on African population genetics had them at ~40% Eurasian, as did Pickrell et al. Joe Pickrell who headed the paper is a geneticist/ PHD holder at Harvard Med... Other studies such Shriner et al. & Hodgson et al. & Pagani et al. all headed by respectful enough geneticists who did miss the mark on a few things as I criticize on my blog although my peer Middayexpress until we have newer more concise literature on Horn genetics takes them at their word entirely (I really don't mind this, I used to but don't anymore). All of these studies (except the first one which doesn't focus on Somalis at all and therefore never touches on the time frame for their admixture) pretty much show that the admixture in Horners is quite ancient by majority and pre-dates for example the Islamization of Somalia. Somalis have really no Arabian admixture, there might be the rare outlier here and there but the vast majority don't. Even this Y-DNA markers: & mtDNA markers : (he's a genome blogger but he shares his sources which again peer-reviewed papers on genetics) do not fit with Arabians for various reasons I can go into if you're curious but I'll leave it at that.

^ I'm not going to disrespect you and say "I don't care what you think" and so on but I'll say that that right there is hard science and while they vary in opinion in some areas; the fact that Somalis don't really have any Arab ancestry of any real note at all (above negligible ~1-2% trace amounts <- even this is dubious and denied at times) is pretty solidified and not debatable. Seriously a good number of these papers like Hogdgson et al. are even used here on Misplaced Pages... The fact that we're a part of the Arab League is besides the point and frankly most Somalis I know don't even get why we're a part of the league. Arabic is not our mother tongue etc. I'll never understand what provoked our government at the time to pursue membership or what provoked 'Arabs' into accepting us.

• I saw your sources and again-> those sources base their work on those genealogies which trace them to 'Arabs' but only through figures associated with or "ancestral" to Somalis who likely weren't even Arab to begin with (if they were then they're just claimed saints and ancestral to no one, really. Barkhadle to my knowledge didn't even have sons...) unless you think all Somalis are Arabs because that is what these figures are claimed to be? Ancestral to Somalis... And you yourself know Somalis clearly predate the Middle Ages. Also Barkhadle was not their ancestor. The claim to him is legendary and as I explained-> impossible. The more legitimate one is the one tying them to Aqeel (Prophet's uncle) and the Darod clan's ancestor... Anyway, the majority of their soldiers were Somali and so were many of their successors...

This dynasty even practiced an inheritance custom completely unknown to Arabs but it was and still is used by some Somalis & is even known to be an Agaw people inheritance custom that was used for example by the Zagwe Dynasty.

This time I mean it: take care. Awale-Abdi (talk) 23:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd appreciate one small weigh in from Midday on the genetics bit. Awale-Abdi (talk) 23:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

You wrote that Hararis are Arabs, even though they were not. Just like Somalis they were an african ethnic group. Also Hararis are not connected to the sheekhaal clan.19:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.74.238.17 (talk)

^ You must have entirely misunderstood. I was saying that by De La Editor's logic Hararis would be Arabs simply because they're a group in the Horn claiming an Arabian genealogy. None of these genealogies are legitimate as the genetic data on the Horn has been showing us as of late although Hararis have sadly not been tested for their autosomal DNA data but I doubt they'll come up with real "Arab" ancestry to be connected to their genealogy as Somalis from all over Greater Somalia, Oromos, Habeshas like Amharas & Tigrinyas and Xamir Agaws have not. Also, I'm not saying there is a true connection between the Sheekhaal and Hararis in terms of blood but both groups claim descent from Abadir-> this does turn into a "connection" between the two. Awale-Abdi (talk) 05:57, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

It is indeed quite common for folks unfamiliar with Horn populations to attribute their non-African affinities to Arabian ancestry. This confusion stems at least in part from the Horn groups themselves, and specifically their traditions of descent. Like the other League of Arab States members, Somalia is in the Arab League for more than just political and economic reasons. It has been part and parcel of the Arab world for centuries. Traditionally, Hararis and many other Afro-Asiatic populations in the Horn are similarly socioculturally oriented. The Arab world itself for the most part isn't really "Arab"; most populations in it don't actually descend from the original Arabic language speakers. It instead consists of various Afro-Asiatic populations with varying degrees of Arabian cultural and linguistic affiliations. That said, genetics, linguistics and some cultural aspects suggest that most of the non-African affinities in the Horn today originate instead with the first Afro-Asiatic speaking settlers in the region. In other words, that's the ancestry, language and culture of the first Somali, Afar, Harari, Beja, Amhara etc. themselves. Hodgson et al. (2014) articulate this quite well in their study, wherein they identify a new non-African inferred ancestral component, which they dub the "Ethio-Somali". They estimate that ethnic Somalis, Afar, Tigre, Amhara, etc. trace the majority of their ancestry to this "Ethio-Somali" genetic component, and suggest that it is the legacy of the first Afro-Asiatic speaking settlers in the Horn. For reasons I shall try and elaborate on at another time, this is almost certainly true. Recent archaeological excavations in northern Somali territory have yielded old artefacts, including human figurines complete with countenances. These artefacts, and especially their likenesses, all but confirm the existence of an ancient Afro-Asiatic civilization in the area; one that was closely related to the Afro-Asiatic civilization in Predynastic and Dynastic Egypt and distinct from those of Bantu/Nilotic populations. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 17:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Middayexpress. I know we disagree on some of "Ethio-Somali's nature" (we can agree to disagree until we have further studies on the Horn or ancient genomes sampled from the region but I fear the latter of the two is far off) but we and all these geneticists can soundly agree that more or less the entirety of the ancestry in Somalis, Agaws, Amharas etc. traces back to the pre-Islamization Afro-Asiatic speaking populations in the area. The medieval contacts with Arabs really had no genetic effect at all and none of these genealogies are real. What you said about "The Arab World" is also true. The entirety or majority of the ancestry for example in Northwest Africans (Moroccans, Mauritanians, Algierians, Tunisians, Libyans) traces back to the Berber populations they descended from prior to Arabization & Maghrebis are quite distinct from Arabians genetically: , . <- And unlike Northwest Africans; Somalis never even made a linguistic shift to Arabic but instead just utilized it as a language of literacy and trade as well as some prestige among royalty for example, whilst claiming Arabian genealogies (many Horn populations claim descent based connections to Semites; most of these claims are fabled). This never left a genetic impact (not one that is remotely noticeable in any sense). "The Arab World" is barely a real genetic entity-> even the page on Arabs notes how many modern "Arabs" are mostly Arabized people last I checked. Awale-Abdi (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Middayexpress (talk) 18:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

How about Somalis wouldn't they be "Arabs"and have "Arab" ancestry? Also some Hararis would have descendants to a Arab, but not all are descendants. 16:15 March 26 2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.74.238.17 (talk) 22:15, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Nope, no "Arab" ancestry for Somalis like we both outlined. I don't know about Hararis tbh; they haven't been tested for anything yet; Y-DNA, mtDNA or autosomal DNA. But perhaps they do have some Arabian ancestry, we'll see. But Somalis, Habeshas & Oromos don't. Habeshas likely have some pretty ancient South-Semitic admixture from making a linguistic shift from Central-Cushitic to South-Semitic but that's mostly it for the "Arabian" input in those three populations. Somalis are just sometimes considered 'Arab' because of the League which our government really just joined for economic & political gains; we were never and are not Arabs. Most "Arabs" aren't... Awale-Abdi (talk) 07:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I mean some Somalis would have some Arab descent or ancestry right, but not all just like the Hararis and their would be some Oromo muslims who would have Arab ancestry too. 23:04, 2 April 2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.74.238.17 (talk) 22:15, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

*Sigh*, just ignore this sock of User:Harari234 Abdi. AcidSnow (talk) 06:39, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

You clearly have a problem Acidsnow, so live this page alone. 1:08, 3 April 2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.74.238.17