Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:04, 24 July 2006

Something fun from Jimbo for the politically inclined

• ]

Archives
as of Jan. 16, 2003 Sept. – Dec. 2005 January 2006 Jan. – Feb. 2006 February 2006 Feb. 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 May24 - July 2006 July 2006 -

Template:Trollwarning

Greetings Earthling, Jimbo:

Greetings Earthling, Jimbo:

I do apologize for calling you on your cell phone while you were eating dinner with your parents. I promise not to call you again. I didn't know you had a talk page. I didn't know I had a talk page. I would just like to make five suggestions.

1. There should be a Misplaced Pages FAQ that new Misplaced Pages users can't miss. In other words there should be a flashing hypertext link to it in a very large font all in a box on Misplaced Pages's home page. This FAQ should explain everything about Misplaced Pages. It should explain the Misplaced Pages process. It should tell users about advocates, mediators, and arbitrators. This would save everyone a lot of grief.

2. Some editors revert anything a new contributor adds to an entry. They do this unceremoniously without comment. They do this even if the contributor substantiates their claims on the article talk page. This appears to be against stated Misplaced Pages policy. New editors are often patronized, berated, insulted and sanctioned simply because they do not understand the Misplaced Pages process. New editors should have some simple recourse to hostile treatment, and this information should be included in the FAQ.

3. No one should be allowed to edit an article unless they have registered with Misplaced Pages and sign in with a password. Their email address should be confirmed. This would lessen vandalism and free up administrators to do more constructive things.

4. Misplaced Pages would greatly benefit from a web site map. Misplaced Pages is a labyrinth.

5. I am sure there is a fifth suggestion I would like to make, but I just can't think of one now.

Warmest and kindest regards, Michael D. Wolok

PS. If you ever find yourself in Miami and need any kind assistance please feel free to call on me.

croatia again?

• u have in plans 2 visit croatia or other near countries in the near future?
• btw, r u the only person who created wikipedia or there were some other people included 2?
• Respond soon, m8.
• West Brom 4ever

My article

Why did you delete all Bobby's articles? Sorry, if I made funny articles. I made those up because I made a story about Math Genius who lived in Math (state). I created Math (state) article. Did I put that Math Genius lived in Math (state)? If you can, could you recreate it?

smile dude

RainbowSprinkles has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing!

Thanks for all u do

Sockpuppets and their Masters

Hello, this is Armando341. I have placed some blocks on users who I know are definitely vandals, including sockpuppets of user:1028 and user:guns'nroseslover. These two, however, are not in any way related. Hope you don't mind.-Armando341

Maybe it's a good idea

Ste4k wrote: Hi Jimbo! I had an idea that is useless to me but might be something for you, let's see. I've only been around here for about a week, so if it sounds silly, please just ignore it. I think that television shows should not be considered factually worth an article until they have actually completed the season written about. This would reduce the edit warring caused by particular people whom are actually only acting as newscasters and producing O.R. It would end the bickering between them, end the sensationalism they add, end the problems with writing one day in future tense and the next day in past. And when it's all said and done for that season, they ignore those articles leaving a big mess for everyone else to clean up. If only completed programs were considered facts, then the only people writing about them would be the people interested. :) BTW, this is not a request. It's just an idea that's useless to me. :(

nice touch

http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:AN#User:Prometheuspan

he even used an ad hominem AS THE JUSTIFICATION for the block.

above stuff unsigned and likely done by Prome-something

Misplaced Pages talk:Delete unused username after 90 days

Hi just a note to say that it has reached 200 in favour (with just 14 opposing) which seems to be a good time to implement for most people. Just wondering if you could find out how as you have a position on the board (and if it is allowed) Lcarsdata 17:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler warnings

At the moment there is a debate on whether spoiler warnings in articles about works of fiction should be deleted, on basis that they are not present in Britannica and other general encyclopedias, or kept, on basis they extend selection of readers to include ones intending to read, watch or play the work.

As arguments regularly involve interpretations of your ideas, I'd like to know what your actual opinion on this subject is, at least in a yes/no way. --CP/M 16:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

To my knowledge, I have never commented on this specific issue, but as a general rule, I think that almost any argument, on any topic, which has premises beginning with "Jimbo said..." is a pretty weak argument. Surely the merits of the proposal should be primary, not what I happen to think.--Jimbo Wales 17:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe the misunderstanding originated from your quote noting: "Our goal is to get to Britannica quality, or better." ---Jimbo Wales December 2005

I would conclude the intent of the quote was in reference to Britannica's quality to research, compose and generally view all their material as equivilent in value to the view of an encyclopedia. I really think Britannica's habbit to forgo spoiler tags is not merely based upon the content they posess, but the fact that its a silly ideal obtained from that of social networking websites and the like that do not consider themselves or their data encyclopediac. Its simply nonsense to warn readers of content when an encyclopedia operates with the intent to share all of its subjects as equal and knowledgeable as any other.

I endorse this paticular quote as I feel it describes our goal to keep the spirit of an excellent encyclopedia intact while expanding the amount of subjects not usually located in an encyclopedia. I don't see why, as an encyclopedia, simply because of our acceptance of various media articles we should treat them any differently than our mainstream subjects. All information at wikipedia is shared with the intent to inform those who seek it. It is utterly ridculous to allow those who endorse the concept of ignorance to operate the construction of an encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 17:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a new and different thing. Britannica did not publish detailed articles on movies while they were still in theatres. Get used to the idea that Misplaced Pages is redefining the word "encyclopedia". The issue is not how can we be like Britannica. The issue is how we can be the best Misplaced Pages we can be. Further, Misplaced Pages is changing, so what works best at one point in time may not be best at another. The encyclopedia that improves at the speed of technology. It's enough to make you dizzy. WAS 4.250 21:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You have totally bypased the point of my comment. My view doesn't endorse the similarities we share with Britannica. It adresses the view that we are an encyclopedia and I don't paticularly care how much we break the mold, the definition and our goals haven't changed. I don't think we're redefining the definition of an encyclopedia and I do percieve, from my time as an editor that we are using the capcity and resources of the internet to expand upon what an original encyclopedia could hold.

In this, I don't see how any of that would be relevant. Spoiler tags were once useful, I think, when wikipedia was still growing as a website and we had not expanded our base of material yet. We've passed this point and its time to throw away the pacificer for the consumerist readers who are acustomed to usenet and other social networking sites. We're here to build an encyclopedia and provide knowledge to those who seek it. Not play silly games with people who wish to introduce their fictional fears of learning something new. Such actions go against the encyclopedia and the point of wikipedia. -Randall Brackett 21:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

As a consumer of information, I find spoiler warnings very useful. I like know that if I am reading ArticleA and I follow a link to a book or movie or the like, I'll get enough informaiton tounderstand why that book or movie was mentioned in ArticleA, but not so much as to spoil my experience if I ever read/watch the book/movie. If you don't like them or don't care, then they are easy enough to skip over as you read. Johntex\ 22:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I support the use of warning people about spoilers. To anyone who believes we should remove the spoiler warnings, how about once we know the secret to the next Harry Potter book (or whatever spoiler), let's put the spoiler at the top of the article (with no warning) and feature that article on the front of wikipedia so everyone gets spoiled by it? Would anyone really be okay with it? DyslexicEditor 22:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm just now noticing this discussion here, unfortunately. I think there's a common misconception at work here that courtesies regarding hypothetical scenarios (whether they really occur or not) are more important than the site's policies, integrity and the concept of making an encyclopedia, which is built on a few core concepts, including neutrality and no censorship. We don't censor images of naked women, we dno't censor images of humans being tortured and we shouldn't warn people away form spoiler information either when it's all considered as relevant as the other information and is supposed to be treated the same.

It's really a horrible double-standard that Misplaced Pages's been allowing ever since the spoiler tag was implemented, and this matter isn't about how it looks or some such thing, so you can't just "gloss over them" as you look at the pages. This is about the integrity of the project itself, which has been diminishing more and more as time has gone on, with events such as a template that would warn people of images of human torture being rejected on the grounds of Misplaced Pages not being censored, while this blasphemous spoiler template has held free reign on the grounds that it's "useful."

There are many useful things in existance, but we don't include them here. Warnings about pornography or images of torture would probably be useful too, as would a phone book listing every phone number in the world, but they have no place here, and -- in principle -- neither should the spoiler tags. They're a warning to readers to dissuade them from learning some specifically selected information on the basis of an editor's own opinions and assumptions about what's best for the readers, things which should not be allowed to influence an article or a readers' absorption of its contents.

In any event, of late it's been proposed that we see if it's possible to set the default presentation of the encyclopedia to "spoiler tags: off," while allowing an option to users to turn them on at their own discretion, in which case they will be choosing to censor themselves rather than editors choosing to do so. While I still find this compromise unsavory, given that it's likely to be the only thing that will allow us to get the unobjective spoiler warnings (and, really, the concept of a warning itself implies that someone's passed their own personal judgement on something and passed that on to who is reading the warning) off of the default presentation of the site without inciting a riot, I'm inclined to support it reluctantly but wisely, I think. Now very strongly opposed to this concept. For the reasons, please see below or this discussion.

It's still baffling to me how a template warning people of images of humans torturing one another gets shot down soundly on the basis of no censorship, but that a template that serves as an intellectual (the concept of warning someone) and visual (it displaces text by an inch) obstacle to information that's supposed to be treated as impartially as the information around it gets endorsed on the basis that it "helps preserve the quality of media products for people." I still believe -- and always will, I imagine -- that the concept and princicples of an encyclopedia should come before subjective courtesies, but if these recent developments can get spoiler warnings off of the default version of the site, then we can at least be making a move to preserve the encyclopedia's integrity. At least until people begin asking for measures for a "pornography free" and "torture free" version, in which case we'll have to comply to prevent holding to a double-standard once again.

Honestly, I think these things should be gone, but I can live with them being here so long as they're only seen if the readers force themselves to see them by clicking on a "Show me the spoiler tags!" link or something. Ryu Kaze 23:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

• I'm on the fence for this one. I think that a lack of spoiler tags will display that this is not a fictional trivia site (and thus keep excess details away) and put emphasis on the fact that we're here to describe the works. Spoiler tags do show that we are fine with displaying "spoilers" in plot synopses, but at the same time, we're encouraging people to include every detail. Honestly, I think having a heading called "plot synopsis" or "story" (like most articles already have) should be warning enough....— Deckiller 23:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

How about wrapping lots of things (like spoilers/nudity/etc) in some span/div, and provide client-side scripting to hide undesirable elements? People who don't want nudity don't have to see it; poeple could hide spoiler warnings; or hide the spoiler content itself. I know Misplaced Pages isn't censored, but we could at least give people the tools to hide things they don't want to see without removing content and features that others want. (It would make me feel more comfortable browsing Misplaced Pages with my parents in the room.) --Chris (talk) 05:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not a terrible suggestion, but I'm not sure if we should make that decision now, or just ask that the new technical tool be designed so that further content could be added in the future. In any event, it's something we'll need to consider. Now very strongly opposed to this concept. For the reasons, please see below or this discussion. Ryu Kaze 13:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm now retracting all previous support for the proposed compromise mentioned earlier. I'm doing so on the grounds that it would not only create grounds for others to ask for similar masks for pornography and images of human torture, but that it would create the opportunity for people to attempt hiding some information behind cleverly-placed spoiler tags. While these would probably be caught by other editors, the fact of the matter is, we shouldn't be allowing such a possibility in the first place. Furthermore, we're an encyclopedia. We shouldn't even ever stop to think about ways to censor information. Ryu Kaze 01:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

As I said, we would not be censoring Misplaced Pages, but we would allow each individual to censor his own view of the information. (It would default to hiding nothing, of course.) Censoring Misplaced Pages, and providing people with an option to hide objectionable information are two entirely different things. Misplaced Pages is not paper, and as such can be dynamic. (Editors would be strongly encouraged to leave all filters off, only engaging them when browsing.) --Chris (talk) 01:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I also did specifically note "nudity" as a potential category of filterable material. --Chris (talk) 01:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

There's too much room for potential misuse of this and too much that would have to also be implemented in order to prevent double-standards from taking place once again. I should never have even suggested this and apologize to everyone for doing so. Creating a means of censorship (whether chosen or not) isn't part of our purpose here. The Misplaced Pages policies page says that our one and only goal is to be an encyclopedia and nothing more. We're not here to babysit or protect people from information. In my quest to establish a compromise on this matter, I created a hole in that and left room for people to actually begin trying to censor things that they simply wanted hidden as much as possible.

Our purpose is to be an encyclopedia. That's it. As Jimbo himself said, if people are scared of plot details, they shouldn't be coming to an encyclopedia. And to quote AMHR285 as I have done so often of late, "Misplaced Pages shouldn't attempt to be a slightly less disruptive version of everyforum.com. It should attempt to be an encyclopedia, and everything else be damned." That's what we're here to do, even as the policies say. We're not here to even consider censorship, self-imiposed or otherwise. We're here to provide information, not mask it from people who are afraid of knowledge. Hypothetical courtesies are not more important than this project's goal and the principles on which that goal is based. Our goal is to build an encyclopedia. Everything else be damned. Ryu Kaze 02:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I came up with this idea apart from your suggestion, so I'm not running with a torch that you lit. (Though it may be correct to say that we built identical torches.) At any rate, I don't see anything you need to apologize for. --Chris (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think the use of the word "censorship" is way out of place here. First of all, that word generally (not always) applies to some authority forcing someone to do something. Even in the case of nude images, if we decide to take them all out it would be our decision, not some censorship issue. With respect to a spoiler tag, information is not even be removed. To call that "censorship" is very inaccurate. Johntex\ 01:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Censorship is the unstandarized regulation of information, which can be imposed by an authority (but doesn't have to be) and may include outright exclusion of information (but doesn't need to). Spoiler warnings have been a violation of our policies of neutrality (their purpose is to warn people away from information on the basis of an editor having passed their judgement on that information, and then passing it on to the readers in an attempt to impede their straightforward learning process) and no censorship (this unstandardized regulation is -- obviously -- targed to specific information selected at the editors' discretion, and is then obstructed by way of the intellectual barrier of the warning and the visual impediment of the 1-inch displacement of the text; all intentionally) since day one. They don't contribute to our purpose. They don't aid it in any way. They're just there to suggest that we're not 100% devoted to the neutral, comprehensive sharing of information, and this new concept that I regrettably conceived would involve us actively seeking to find a means to aid in censorship. I truly regret having thought of it and suggested it. I'm sorry to the whole of Misplaced Pages for doing so. May the concept go to hell. Ryu Kaze 02:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't follow most of what you have written. But your suggestion that somehow having to scroll a few lines down the page constitutes censorship is just a perversion of the definition of censorship. Johntex\ 19:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

If that were the entire foundation of my argument, I'd have to agree with you. Given that that was merely an add-on to the rest (the intellectual persuasion, the fact that an editor is passing their own personal judgement and sending it on to the readers in a deliberate attempt to persuade them from reading specifically selected information chosen by the editor theirself based on that editor's opinion of what might be unsuitable for the readers and the fact that other such tags for pornography and images of torture have been shot down on the basis of our policies), I can't see why you're suggesting it's the crux of the matter. Ryu Kaze 21:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

In order for there to be censorship, something has to be censored. Therefore, it absolutely is the foundation of your argument. If the user having to scroll down a few lines is not censorship, then nothing was censored. Johntex\ 19:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

No, John, the foundation of my argument was not that the displacement of text by one inch is the be all-end all of this matter. That was just icing on the cake. Ryu Kaze 17:46, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Either way, the tags are labels, not censorship. Johntex\ 18:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

In your opinion, of course. Seems we won't agree. Ryu Kaze 02:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Censorship

User:Nandesuka keeps removing the URL http://digg.com/linux_unix/Richard_Stallman_supports_voluntary_pedophilia Richard_Stallman_supports_voluntary_pedophilia as vandalism without consensus. 65.95.60.170 13:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone's running a smear campaign. No need to link to it. --Carnildo 18:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't need to censor it just cause you don't like it. Nemoser 03:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line is, the more outrageous the claim, the better the source needs to be. The claim is pretty far out there in terms of outrageousness, and the source is a random blog. So no, it's not censorship, it's not being idiotic about sources and claims about living people who could be harmed by libel. Mak (talk) 03:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

ha ha, actully the source is Richard Stallman's own blog. He's just quoting Richard Stallman. Here's Richard Stallman's exact words "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children." Nemoser 19:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Being skeptical of a reason that is brought forward to oppose the concept is hardly the same as endorsing the concept itself.213.46.128.161 09:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be less POV & better-sourced to link directly to Stallman's web journal entry? --Ssbohio 09:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Angus

hello,

I believe that you are the owner of wikipedia no. I have understood that your you can clear an administrator of its functions, then this user I want that you see what puts:

http://es.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Votaciones/2006/Sobre_el_n%C3%BAmero_m%C3%ADnimo_de_ediciones_necesarias_para_tener_derecho_a_voto#Propuesta_7_.28angus.29

the author of this message is:es:Usuario:Rossoneri 100%

User Themindset trying to corrupt SMS.ac page again.

Themindset is reverting from actual quotes out of the source material to biased NPOV violating rhetoric which is not contained in the text of the source article.

See Talk page for details.

Reeves Guy

I am Reeves Guy and Wales has been more understanding than anybody else, the point now is, to make him believe it was makemi, herostratus and few other administrative vandals who made things worse, not me and worse... releasing names of my former club, people who have nothing to do with this, great detectives you all are, when I improved paul bern site with correct bio, same for rocky, corrected links, that was reversed, then it was reversed again after I was prooven right, but nobody said anything... as usual!

Hey, hmm, I do not think you are any better than your administrative vandals, who joined together, all of them, against one or two people, but worse are those who believe them...

Really need to look into.

I got a message from 24.192.44.141 which really scared me. I believe that this user is a predater and needs to be blocked immediately. Karrmann 07:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Blocked IP for a month, left an abuse report for investigation Misplaced Pages:Abuse_reports#24.192.44.141 abakharev 07:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Forgive me if I'm being clueless, but unless 'edsel' is a euphemism for 'penis' or something (and as far as I can see he's referring to the picture of the Ford Edsel car on Karrmann's user page), I don't see how this qualifies as stalking. He didn't say "I know where you live and I'm coming to see you". --Sam Blanning 15:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I was probably an over-reaction from my side, the user sent me E-mail explaining the situation. He really owns the vintage car and seems to act with the best intentions. I have unblocked him and removed my abuse report abakharev 04:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The best of intentions in asking to meet a fourteen year old boy? A case of AGF gone awry - air on the side of caution, here. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 04:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It is irresponsible to ignore a request for protection from a 14 year old who has received an inappropriate message. It is not usual for blatant requests for meetings to to be posted on wikipedia. 24.192.44.141 could see that Karrmann was 14 as it states it on his user page, where the message was also posted, not on the talk page. At the bottom of the message was the request "Please delete after you read this." The user did say, "I know where you live", to be precise: "I live near you (Detroit area)". It is no wonder that Karrmann is frightened. The user who posted this message either has untoward intentions or is incredibly naive. Whichever way round, such a message is inappropriate, and would be interpreted with great suspicion by most people. It would certainly not look good if it got wider publicity (which is not unlikely with wiki watching sites) and could be very damaging for wikipedia. I suggest the block is reinstated and also the abuse report. This has to be taken seriously. The euphemism mention does not help, and, if Karrmann's (understandable) fears that he has been contacted by a predator are true, it is hardly likely that a predator would announce his intentions blatantly. The edit summary for this invitation to meet is "Vandal hunting". It is also the user's only edit. Tyrenius 02:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"Vandal hunting" is the name of the section that he edited. --Chris (talk) 05:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I've heard complaints in the past that pedophiles like to edit articles to make them pro-pedophilia and it's a problem. I haven't looked into it so I don't know how accurate it is, but the pedo problem doesn't seem as bad on wikipedia as most of the internet (especially anime posting boards). DyslexicEditor 17:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm starting to think I'm alone in seeing the concern over this as a rather panicky overreaction. For the record, I'll state that I'm uninvolved in this situation, other than as an observer & commentator. Alex Bakharev has already acted immediately to block the user until the situation could be investigated. After he gathered the facts, he unblocked the user, even before I finished inquiring about the block. The user said nothing other than that they lived in the same metro area (them and about 1 million other people) and that his car, pictured on Karrmann's userpage, was available if Karrman wanted to see it. On that page, Karrman states once that his age is 14, and several times that he drives one car or another. At the least, Karrman's talkpage gave mutiple messages about his age. However, without there having been a specifically inappropriate message, I'm not sure how much the age matters. The comment could be interpreted badly, but I really see this as a classic example of the need to assume good faith not only in article edits.

The discussion of this issue has bounced from WP:AN to WP:AR to Alex Bakharev with a sidetrip into User talk:24.192.44.141. We are building a fear-fueled Chinese wall between adults & youth, both here in the project & in society as a whole. Growing up, I knew nearly every adult in my neighborhood, spent time with some of them, even visited their houses unescorted. I emerged unscarred & unmolested. Karrman & Alex Bakharev both exercised extreme caution in this situation. However, the situation has been considered in several fora, investigated by the blocking admin, and resolved. Where is the remaining issue? And why isn't it an issue of dispute resolution, if there is some dispute with respect to this action, rather than (another) discussion in Jimbo Wales' talk page? --Ssbohio 14:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The first thing Karrmann says on his user page extremely prominently is that he is 14. It is at best a bad lapse of judgement for an adult to contact a 14 year old in this way and to suggest meeting. At the very least he should have asked Karrmann to let his parents know. Instead the user ends the message "Please delete after you read this." It is the first and only edit from that IP address, and the user has not come forward to offer a public explanation to reassure us or Karrmann. Karrmann has obviously been badly frightened by this, and it is a duty of care towards him to show that we are taking this seriously. I don't think this is something that admins were chosen to deal with and it at least needs to be known about at a higher level of the Foundation. This is not building a fear-fuelled wall between adults and youth. That already exists in society when an adult stranger suggests meeting a youth in this way, and also wishing to hide evidence of that suggestion. The fact is that Karrmann is seeking the help of adults he trusts, in order to protect him and make him feel safe over one he doesn't. He is entitled to know that he can do this, and it will be taken seriously, not trivialised as "a rather panicky overreaction". I'm not panicking: I am exercising caution and due diligence. Tyrenius 01:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's break this down:

• Karrmann does tell us he is 14. He also tells us that he owns or drives serveral models of cars, which is inconsistent with being 14. Additionally, there's no guarantee that the blocked user actually read Karrmann's age on his userpage. While ignorance is no excuse, regardless of what the user read or thought, the message boiled down to: "if you want to see the car pictured on your userpage, you can." The implication of something improper doesn't seem to lie in what was said, though it's easy to see how that conclusion could be drawn from it. Karrmann was right to share his concern & have it taken seriously.
• Why the user suggested deleting the message isn't explicitly answered, so the assumption of nefarious purpose is easy to understand. Since the suggestion to delete comes immediately after an apology for putting this on his userpage, an innocent reason exists in the text.
• The user's comments are interpretable in a way that justifies Karrman's fear, and, if anything, we should encourage such a cautious approach on the part of a 14-year-old. Karrman rightly notified an admin, Alex Bakharev, who rightly blocked the user while asking for an emailed explanation of his actions. With the edit history you cited, the user doesn't seem to be a regular contributor to Misplaced Pages, so his lack of public comment is (to me) understandable. While blocked, the user explained himself to the blocking admin, who removed both the block & the warning.

Karrman sought the help of the admins, and an admin acted to protect him (& the community) from potential harm. The admin investigated & made a determination. The "overreaction" comment was about how this looks in hindsight, since without context, the user's comment on Karrman's userpage is questionable, and it's safer to react strongly than to underreact. --Ssbohio 10:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to thank you all for your concern. REblock the user, and that will be good. I also have my page protected. I am also with assuming good faith, because to see the Edsel userbox, he would have missed where I told my age. Karrmann 01:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with regard to this user, Karrman, and I can see why his comment would have troubled you. I trust Alex Bakharev when he says that the user understands how what he said caused you concern, so I'm not sure continuing to block him would change anything. From what's been previously discussed about this situation, it looks like a case of a user who didn't think out all the implications of what he was saying, rather than a case of actual harmful intent. None of that changes your actions. You did the right thing in reporting this. Thanks for taking action in this situation, and for your work here as an editor. --Ssbohio 10:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can edit

It appears not. At least one of your administrators, ChrisO, categorically rejects the opinions of those who edit under an IP code only, as though they're second class users (regardless of the fact that most 'registered' users are entirely anonymous to us all).

In fact I support the comment up this page that you have anarchy here, largely because editors/administrators on the broad Left have an extremely clear agenda, however much they try to dress it up.

Look at the catalogue of well-known UK traditional conservatives who have been deleted in a concerted campaign: Dr.Mark Mayall, Andrew V R Smith, Stuart Millson, Sam Swerling, Anthony Murphy, to name but a few. Every imaginable excuse has been raised by 'the gang' in this campaign. What hope for a balanced set of biograpies right across the political spectrum on Misplaced Pages. I think the very least you could do is to place a template on the Misplaced Pages Home Page telling editors not to waste their time researching and writing articles which The Left are opposed to because they will he deleted. Is there any real control or is Misplaced Pages firmly in the hands of The Left? 81.131.11.32 19:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not controlled by any single point of view. The information it contains is based on the knowledge and interests of those who are motivated to contribute. Some might be motivated from "leftist" type motivations like those Christ promoted - love, share, forgive. Others might be paid by sponsors (CIA, GM, anyone with money who sees wikipedia as just another propaganda opportunity). This might provide a rightwing slant as the rightwing is the group with money. Some might just like to show off what they know. Some might get an emotional high from sharing knowledge. Some might get off pushing others around. Some might be here to find friends (but we are not myspace). We are simply too open to be controlled by any one faction. WAS 4.250 23:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

But small spaces can be controlled by a group of "meat puppets". I think that is the accusation here. --Blue Tie 00:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The solution is to broaden the franchise then, via RfC or other appeals to neutral editors. Of course, there have been equal complaints that a consortium of right-wing editors have been censoring negative material relating to their own. This indicates that there is probably an overall balance, but localised problems. Tyrenius 08:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

An lengthy examination of numerous articles (including those now deleted) will show determined efforts by User:Homeontherange to demonise and/or delete UK right-wing conservative profiles/articles, several of which were seriously well-researched and sourced by people in the UK. It is slightly barmy to suggest that someone has been paid to write up these various articles on the UK Tory Right. It was a gap in Misplaced Pages which needed to be filled, was researched and written up. People are spending hours of their private time and work to see it destroyed by him and a handful of others whose comments have clearly displayed their absolute bias. So I for one cannot agree with your analysis. Maybe its just a bit of wishful thinking. 213.122.27.106 11:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• This is not the whole story here. The vast majority of articles on these allegedly prominant right wing activists contained information which could only have been known to the subjects themselves. The main content of these articles was devoted to letters which they had had published in the Daily Telegraph or other such newspapers over the past 20 years, dinner invitations they had recieved, name-dropping (one article pointed out that that the subject had once sat next to Jeffrey Archer in a church service) and pointless genological details describing 'distinguished' members of their ancestry in great and tedious detail. On one occassion Mike Keith Smith, who had his article deleted on the grounds of non-notability, started going on administrators talkpages begging to have it put back on - hardly a ringing endorsement of his fame! Most seriously of all the article on Gregory Lauder Frost contained a glaring inaccuracy, a blatent lie, in that it stated that Mr Lauder Frost had been cleared of a theft charge when in fact he had been found guilty and jailed for two years. Lauder Frost is now attempting to sue both Misplaced Pages and myself for correcting this anomaly claiming that we are in breach of his human rights--Edchilvers 14:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone above said, "Others might be paid by sponsors (CIA, GM, anyone with money who sees wikipedia as just another propaganda opportunity)." I have proof of this, particulary people from the CIA, including an administrator. Unfortunately, I cannot give proof here because that would be naming names and the people involved would twist it into a personal attack. So basically, I'm not citing anyone, I'm just saying there are people (including admins) who are paid people from organizations. It should not be surprising either. If anyone is picky about this post for me saying who it is upon ask, basically I won't name them on my talk page if asked. So I'm not naming anyone. I'm just saying that I know of many people who are paid to put propaganda including admins (mostly I know of ones from the US Government). To paid people, please don't remove this, I will not tell who you are. Miosncgioa 22:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that people look at my comments at the top of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Stuart Millson 2, which I note the complainant has avoided linking to. The vast majority of the "keep" votes in the original vote came from newly registered and anonymous users, and there was evidence that partisans of both sides were using their respective bulletin boards to "get out the vote" on related articles. It should go without saying that votes for deletion should be based on the Misplaced Pages deletion policy, not on partisan identification. AFD has enough problems without it being manipulated by meatpuppets. See WP:SOCK#Advertising and soliciting meatpuppets for policy on the issue.

I should also point out that there were serious problems with several of the articles in question. This resulted in community decisions to delete them (, , ). In particular, the anonymous proponents of these articles have consistently failed to demonstrate that the subjects are notable per Misplaced Pages's notability guidelines. They've also failed to apply the verifiability guidelines, adding a lot of information that is both trivial and apparently based on personal knowledge (such as who had dinner with whom and when). The whining about "left-wing conspiracies" is misplaced - if articles don't meet Misplaced Pages's basic standards for inclusion then they shouldn't be included, whichever side of the political spectrum they relate to. -- ChrisO 23:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Userboxes/Beliefs

I noticed that you recently PROD'd Misplaced Pages:Userboxes/Beliefs. I ask this as a straightforward and not as a rhetorical question: what is the best location to collect and organize all userboxes, if not Misplaced Pages:Userboxes? My understanding of GUS was that now that we're not cluttering template space, those of us who think that userboxes are necessary to NPOV would be allowed to maintain an organized userbox library, as we were before. (P.S. If Cyde or someone other than Jimbo who knows what (s)he's talking about wants to reply, that's fine. I don't need an answer from Jimbo per se, I just need an official answer so that I can go about my business knowing that the debate is over and done with).--M@rēino 20:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

"Userboxes are necessary to NPOV"? That's an extremely bizarre notion. More like "Userboxes are a very strong indicator that the person wearing them as badges of pride have no interest in, nor understanding of, NPOV." Well, that is a matter for a different argument.

The main thing is that these absurdities have to be removed as soon as is peacefully possible completely out of any and all official namespaces. The most important thing is to send a strong signal that this kind of divisive, factionalistic behavior is tolerated in the name of diversity and kindness, but in no way approved of or encouraged by the real community of Wikipedians, as opposed to random "myspacers".--Jimbo Wales 21:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you. I appreciate getting the official opinion from you, and I'll respect it.

I am quite aware that my views on userboxes are out of the mainstream, so to explain (without really hoping to convince anyone; that ship has sailed): I believe that a person can only be neutral and dispassionate after first accepting and admitting his biases and passions. Failing to flag my biases would, in my mind, be fooling myself. For example, I get very hotheaded when discussing race, so I keep the "racial equality" userbox on my page to remind myself (and others) that most people don't take these matters as personally as I do. Hopefully, it reminds me to calm down and accept others, and warns others that they might be dealing with a passionate person. I also have opinions on, say, sports teams and foreign languages, but I usually don't post those userboxes because my views on those matters are trivial and don't affect my work on articles.

On the other hand, I'm quite aware that some Wikipedians have been abusing userboxes as a way to encourage divisiveness, as well as do silly things like use Misplaced Pages as a free webhost. So if the Misplaced Pages:Userboxes/Beliefs page is going to die as a result, I understand that the debate on that one is over. If it's OK, though, I might create a page like User:Mareino/Userboxes/Beliefs so that I or anyone else who's interested can keep a organized library of all userboxes of a given genre, rather than just listing only the userboxes that match my own beliefs.--M@rēino 22:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo, I'm concerned by the implications of your writing above. I'd like to think I'm an adequate editor overall. Yet, paradoxically, I believe userboxes aren't "absurdities" creating "divisive, factionalistic behavior," but rather neutral tools, usable toward either good ends or bad. Further, I believe that all of the ills that you & others claim flow from userboxes actually flow from problem users themselves, and will continue by other means, even if userboxes were to be banished. I've consistently heard that, on Misplaced Pages, an editor's worth is based on the quality of his edits, not on ancillary factors. Now, I find that, as far as you are concerned, I can never be counted among the "real community of Wikipedians," because I oppose the destructive solution to the putative userbox problem. I apologize for not being a "real Wikipedian," but my judgement in this matter has been arrived at with every bit as much good faith as yours. It troubles me that this is so. --Ssbohio 22:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

RfC for spoiler tags

I thought you might like an update on the status of the spoiler tag discussion. It's been moved to this RfC. Take care. Ryu Kaze 13:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm back again, 'cause there's something I have to say. Please hear me out. This is probably out of place — maybe even out of line — but I have to put it out there. I really feel like you should read some of the stuff in this discussion, even if you don't have time to read it all and even if it changes nothing.

Having been part of this discussion for as long as I have, obviously I'm tired. Obviously I want to see a conclusion. And obviously, I don't think there's going to be one. I don't want to see a conclusion just because I want the matter to be over with for my own sake; I want a conclusion because discussions like this are nothing new. This one has evolved further than others on the matter and new points have been presented opposing spoiler tags, but this issue itself isn't new and I don't think it's going to end now. It'll just happen again sometime down the road.

Really, I feel like nothing's changed even now, even after all this talk. I believe the spoiler tags are more than likely going to survive this discussion, that the last month or so spent discussing the matter will amount to no change from the status quo, and that Misplaced Pages will remain the cauldron of hypocrisy that it already is. There, I said it. I love the place. I really do. I love the mission and the practice. I really mean that. I've loved it. But if it's going to be an encyclopedia, I want it to be an encyclopedia. Could you please read this and this? Maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from. Maybe you already do but don't want to take action for reasons that I've guessed (see what I linked to for those guesses). Maybe you actually can't for some reason or another that I'm not aware. But I think you should read this and — just in case you don't already — see what the issue at stake here really is. This has been a wonderful project, and I've loved being part of it. I'd like to continue to do so, and will, whatever happens. But I think that it's failing.

By the way, this isn't a request for intervention. I just want you to be aware of what's going on and what it means. Whatever you choose to do (or not to do) is, of course, up to you. If nothing else, thanks for your time. Have a good one. Ryu Kaze 18:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Ryu said "I want to see a conclusion... I don't think there's going to be one... I believe the spoiler tags are more than likely going to survive this discussion..." I think what Ryu is really saying is that he may find himself in the minority and that the community is in favor of keeping the spoiler tags he dreads so much. Reaching a conclusion that Ryu disagrees with is not the same as failure to reach a conclusion. Johntex\ 19:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think what Ryu is really saying is exactly what Ryu said: that this is just going to be another episode in a program that's been running for a couple of years. Somebody needs to step in and say either "Spoiler tags will be here forever, they're going to become a part of policy and to hell with everything else" or "Spoiler tags are not going to be here, we're going to focus strictly on the mission and everything else be damned".

And I think it's worth pointing out that there was a compromise we'd all supposedly agreed on and that would be the basis for us moving on to RfC — conveniently pushed to the side and demonized when things got that far — so it's not like there wasn't the inference of an actual development emerging from this.

Basically, while I would like to see Misplaced Pages's intended purpose as an encyclopedia upheld in both spirit and letter — though I had been willing to go along with the compromise of spoiler tags turned off by default, but accessible at a reader's own discretion — if it's going to become a fansite, I think that should be set in stone under black and white terms. Ryu Kaze 20:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

But what you said above is, "I want to see a conclusion... I don't think there's going to be one... I believe the spoiler tags are more than likely going to survive this discussion..." Surviving the discussion is a conclusion, unless you or someone else chose not to accept that conclusion and bring the matter up again later. Johntex\ 22:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. And the status quo remaining what it has been means there won't be a conclusion. Thus, why this has been an ongoing thing. Thus why I made reference to it being an ongoing thing, going back at least to 2004. A change of some kind (like the "agreed upon" compromise that was suddenly mowed down in a hail of "oppose" bullets from left field) would have at least presented the possibility for a conclusion. As things stand, we've just contributed the largest verse yet to "The Song That Never Ends II". Be proud, brother. Be proud. Ryu Kaze 01:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Before you began the RfC, the spoiler tag guideline was marked as a guideline and was accepted by consensus of editors to be a guideline. Assuming that consensus doesn't change through the process of the RfC, then the conclusion would be that we still have a guideline. That is a conclusion. Johntex\ 18:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

A conclusion is an ending. Meaning something is over and done with, never to arise again and not have been concluded.

And actually, there never was a consensus on those things being a guideline. There's been opposition to their inclusion for years and somebody just threw the label on them one day. Interestingly enough, they were never included in the Manual of Style, where style guidelines generally go. Ryu Kaze 02:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Mission Statement for Psychology Wiki

Gil suggested we write this and I thought you might like to read it. Our Vision

Mostly Zen 18:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The Use/Abuse of Misplaced Pages to Promote Propaganda and Defamation

Hi. I'm sorry to be disturbing you, but this is rather important. Misplaced Pages is being exploited as a 'soap box' for promoting anti-Islamic views.The problem is faily extensive amongst articles dealing with Islam, Islamic history, prominent Muslims and Muslim organizations. While policies and guidelines are supposed to prevent such abuses, they are widely being ignored by editors and are not enforced by administrators. I have tried remedying the problem by participating in articles being contested, but to little avail. A case regarding myself has been files with Arbcomm. I've made many mistakes in that I have taken the problem personally (I happen to be from a Muslim family) and expressed myself in a way less than approved by Misplaced Pages. I don't wish to bother you with that. What I would bother you with is the abuse of Misplaced Pages as a platform to promote hateful propaganda though the selective and biased collection and misinterpretation of publications by abusive editors. I would only suggest that you review this particular Arbcomm case because I have expressed in it, in some detail, the problem that has become widespread amongst Islam-related articles. I strongly suggest you look over this particular case. Thank you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/His_excellency/Evidence

Please compare the articles noted at the top of my 'evidences' section to similar articles in more conventional encyclopedias. His Excellency... 00:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

What hate speech? --mboverload@ 01:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I have not examined this case yet, but agree that in the midst of a world war the questions raised are significant. I will certainly do my best to consider them. Fred Bauder 01:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Jimmy in Berlin!

Made for WP:NCR and my Main man Jimmsy. I love you mate. Dfrg.msc 10:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC) Illegal Danish?

Talk:Brandy Alexandre

I replied to your talk page note, with the substance of which I concur but which I think to have been gratuitiously discourteous in tenor. I understand, though, that you've to deal with such taxing and time-consuming issues daily, such that you may understandably be perturbed when issues that were ostensibly settled and are of tangential encyclopedic value are once more raised, such that you must expend more time on them, so I certainly appreciate the impulse toward terse castigation, but I—not having been involved in the Amazon/credit card situation—a different tone might more civilly have conveyed your message. At least I didn't bust out with an {{npa2}} or {{civil1}}... :) Joe 16:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I thank you very kindly for having taken time to reply to me, and I readily understand why you think the individuals whose behvaior you think to have been inappropriate ought to feel shame (with which thought I might well concur). It is not, though, at least to my mind, appropriate for any editor qua editor or editor qua admin (or qua Jimbo, even) to undertake to chastise another for his/her on-Wiki actions in the context of a broader morality; such chastising, by its very nature, is of contributors themselves rather than of their contributions, contra the spirit that underlies WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, viz., that the success of the project depends on the continued ability of users to collaborate collegially and rationally/logically (cf., interpersonally/emotionally). Plainly, I don't see that your comments furthered any particular encyclopedic purpose more than would some more subdued comments, those that focused on the actions you saw as contrary to policy, rather than those that focused on how contributors ought to feel. It is not for anyone here to shame another user, and your particular distaste for the (probably) unseemly behavior of certain editors ought not to be raised; to the extent that the edits were unseemly (or otherwise improper), they should be criticized. In any event, thanks for your reply; at the very least, I can forever memorialize my encounter with Jimbo. :) Joe 04:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Stephanie Addams

You might want to re-review Stephanie Adams in light of a new blog-only (IE, WP:BLP violating) sourced allegation that she's suing someone for something. Hipocrite - «Talk» 00:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Swap Tab

This is a great idea I have. Instead of swapping pages the old way, what if there's a swap tab that takes you to a page where you swap it with an existing article? This would eliminate A to C B to A C to B delete C snd would be easier to non-administrative users. This optoin would only be available to registered users, like me and anyone else with a login. Would it be possible? Pronoun 20:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The place to discuss a proposal like this is probably over at Misplaced Pages:Village Pump (technical)—but I suspect it probably won't happen. How often is it necessary to swap the contents of two pages? (I can think of perhaps one instance in the last couple of years where I've even considered that such a swap would be appropriate; are you involved in some sort of project where swaps are frequently necessary?) I fear that the only individuals who would use such a feature on anything approaching a regular basis are vandals. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It could be reverted, I've done a swap several times, like the full name redirects to an abbreviation, or its plural, or a redirect and a disambiguation. Pronoun 09:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Fan club

I have started a Jimbo fan club at Misplaced Pages:Jimbo Wales Unofficial Fan Club. What do you think? Scienceman123 03:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

And the vote for deletion is at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Jimbo Wales Unofficial Fan Club. The vote is 17 delete and 0 keep so it seems not long for this world even in BJAODN. --Banana04131 19:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

you need to encourage Wiktionary participation more

Currently I think most people are ignoring it because they think it's just something one transwikis dicdefs into. I think most also overlook its multilingual capacity for everything from inflection to utility in Chinese grammar. I think wiktionary needs a PR touch. John Riemann Soong 23:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikiracism is proven, demonstrated by the fact that you've deleted a page that I've written on the issue,

& you've even denied me the historylog.

Racist, reprehensible, egomaniac hypocrite,... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hopiakuta (talk • contribs)

Wiki has one policy: we do whatever we can get away with.

From now on, I must try to remind myself that any time that I mention you, I must try to engage the fact that you are less than half accurate.

Please, at least give me a historylog!!

Please let me have the history-access, at least,...

Better yet, revive the page, & suggest edits. That's your claimed "policy". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hopiakuta (talk • contribs)

Seemingly fraudulently.

Weaklypedia.

Weaklypaedia.

Actually, you, if you would keep to your implied ethics, would have a wikiproject on internet-racism, dealing w/ the issue both internally, & externally, as well.

I do hope for you to be honest; though, I expect it not. wiki has not proven up to claims nor expectations.

Al E. Wales: "What me racist??"

Hopiakuta 03:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I have 0 idea what the heck you're talking about. --mboverload@ 03:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Because when we do wrong, such as racism, we, including me, often do not recognize the harm. Therefore you do not see the racism on this website.

I am attempting to think of adequate nouns to describe the people here, that would not get deleted.

Will you delete "bunch of 'webholes'"?

How else can I describe racism, If you would deny the appropriate pages to do so??

Wiki is racist. Period.

You want to permit me to prove it?

Then revive my page, & possibly we can improve from this hypocracy.

I do hereby challenge you to be ethical.

But, I do expect to remain underneath the carpet. I do expect you to continue to pretend ignorance, &/or enforce ignorance on yourselves.

Hopiakuta 03:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hopiakuta (talk • contribs) .

You keep placing that throughout my messages, everyplace where I employ the title-function. I've been doing that for emphasis. I do do it that way, due to my disabilities, & that is simpler than the other functions which require

more memorization,

& more typing.

But, just one of the many forms of racism, wiki does not believe in disability-access, which is summed in a concept called "handicappism".

One of a very few mentions of disability that I've located is this half-intestined-effort:

Systemic bias of Misplaced Pages

The origins of bias

The average Wikipedian on English Misplaced Pages (1) is male, (2) is technically-inclined, (3) is formally educated, (4) speaks English to an extent, (5) is White, (6) is aged 15-49, (7) is from a predominantly Christian country, (8) is from an industrialized nation, and (9) is more likely to be employed in intellectual pursuits than in practical skills or physical labor. In order to contribute to Misplaced Pages, a user must have access to both a computer and Internet access and be able to use them. Most of the world's population does not and their views and experience are not directly represented. This includes the developing nations, the population at a lower socio-economic level within industrialized countries and those with disabilities and elderly people. In most countries, minority ethnic and linguistic groups have disproportionately less access to information technology and education than the majority group. This includes, among many others, the First Nations of Canada, the Aborigines of Australia, and economically weaker sections of India. Despite the many contributions of Wikipedians who write English as a non-native language, the English Misplaced Pages is dominated by editors who grew up in anglophone countries. These also tend to be industrialized nations, accentuating the bias towards contributions from wealthy countries. While areas where English is an official language or where education in English is widespread, such as Germany, the Netherlands, Hong Kong and India, have decent coverage when compared with many other nations, they remain under-represented compared to those countries that speak English natively.

Therein, "disabilities" appears once,

"disabled" appears zero,

"handicappism" appears zero,

"racism" tallies zilch, as well.

I can, certainly, absolutely, empathize w/ how you, & others, think that that addresses the issue.

Well, I could see how I would've thought so, if my experiences had taken a different route.

Racism.

Handicappism.

Just two of your major errors.

But you virulently deny this fact, whch I contend is obvious.

Hopiakuta 04:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Again: "webhole(s)".

Hopiakuta 04:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Please, revive my page.

Hopiakuta 04:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Country Woods

I created this account for security purposes (usually used when I'm away from home; like at school). --Bigtop (tk|cb|em|ea) 07:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)