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The map is still wrong

Germany is still shown as having won only once. The Germany in Eurovision article has it correctly but this main page has been showing the wrong information for a year at least. I don't have the skills to alter the map but it really does need fixing. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 09:38, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

@Vauxhall1964: this debate gets thrashed out periodically as can be found in the number of threads at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest/Archive 1 and Talk:Eurovision Song Contest/Archive 2, and also at File talk:Eurovision winners map.svg - some of which you have also participated in. The map is highlighting the fact that there use to be a divided East-West Germany up until its reunification in the early 1990s. There is a footnote on the map which directs people to the notes section, and provides an explanation into why it is done this way. If we change the colour for both, then people will think Germany have won 4 times, twice as a divided Germany, and twice as a reunified Germany. Wes Mouse |  10:44, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

the Federal Republic of Germany still won both times (and still exists today) - and the German Democratic Republic did never enter the ESC at all - the way it is presented is misleading 149.172.99.168 (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

not only did the German Democratic Republic never enter the ESC it was never a member of the EBU 16:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.99.168 (talk)

We know Germany won twice. But in 1982 there was a massive wall dividing the nation. The Federal Republic of Germany was on the western side of that wall, and the map has to show that historical factor. If we show the nation of Germany as being a reunified nation in 1982, then we would be portraying a factual lie. We couldn't highlight both as twice, as that would make people think "West Germany" won twice and the reunified Germany also winning twice. Wes Mouse |  19:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

If we're honest this debate gets 'thrashed out periodically' only because, as the threads highlighted show, you and only you argue with everyone else that the map is correct. As for a "factual lie", it's the map which is showing a lie, ie that Germany has only won once (when you yourself just said it won twice). Inclusion of the map is meant to illustrate clearly the facts and the fact is, as we all agree, Germany won twice. I very much admire the work you've put into this article but imagine a journalist having a quick glance at the map and writing an article claiming one win for Germany. We'd all tut tut at their sloppiness, so the map really should be accurate as it's a very instant representation of the facts (the footnote will not be read and is in any case very confusing, talking of 'Germany' and 'Germany as a whole' as if they're two countries). You seem hung up on the map (which is of the territories of Europe as they are now) having to cover the legal territory of Europe as it was four decades ago, which of course it cannot. You also don't seem to understand the legal reality of what 'Germany' is (and has been since the war). As many others in those threads keep pointing out a country called "West Germany" never existed; it was never in the EBU and never entered Eurovision. It's a term used in English-speaking countries and not used in Germany itself (they have always talked about the 'Bundesrepublik'..'federal republic', both then and now). The proper name for the country is the Federal Republic of Germany and it joined Eurovison in 1956 and remains in it to this day, with 'Germany' always on the scoreboard (never 'West Germany'). Its capital changed and its borders changed (in 1957 when Saarland joined it and in 1990 when the eastern regions did the same) but as everyone keeps repeating it's the same country. Or when asked how many times Germany has entered Eurovison do you actually say "35 as West Germnay and 25 as 'Germany'"? The Olympic medals won by the Federal Republic before 1990 aren't separated out from its post reunification tally (and why should they?) so why do that with its Eurovision performances? This defies all common sense. I assume the one win that the map is showing is the win in 2010? Nicole would be very unimpressed to see her win airbrushed off the map. The Germans must find this rather silly as they are in no doubt about what 'Germany' is. After all the German version of this Misplaced Pages article has a map and guess what? It shows Germany with two wins. So are you going to tell them their map is a 'factual lie' too? Vauxhall1964 (talk) 16:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you will find that all the "periodical thrashing about" took place between 2006 and 2010. I only joined Misplaced Pages on 13 August 2011, well after these debates took place. So it would be appreciated if you retracted the accusation that I have taken part in every single debate that took place. I only commented briefly once to a thread that was started in 2010, but my comment was made 4 years later.

In 1982 when Germany won, the nation was divided politically. Even the maps of 1982 shown an East and West Germany. Although the EBU did not refer to the FR Germany as "West Germany", their atlas status of such nation in that era needs to be depicted correctly - which is what we have done. If we show a reunified Germany being in existence in 1982, then we would be portraying a factual inaccuracy and that would be more offensive to Germans who endured the political divide of that era. Now if we're to use a unified Germany for 1982, then we're basically changing history - and we do not have the right to change history in that manner. Something like this will require community-wide consensus at the correct venue (not sure if ArbCOm or something similar is the place to be heading). And only then would we have something strict to be abiding too. Wes Mouse |  11:09, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, the period of debate only occurred after Germany's second win in 2010; before then the country had indeed only won once so a map showing that would have been correct. Secondly I don't need to retract any 'accusation' because I never made any: I stated a fact, ie that you are the only person who has been defending the map. Since 2010 24 people have posted saying the map is wrong and 2, including yourself, have defended it (neither German and one of which later changed their mind and agreed with the majority). There's certainly no need for any arbitration as the community-wide consensus could not clearer: 24 to 1. Currently this article across its German and English versions has 2 maps and they both obviously cannot be correct. So I presume you wish to change the map on the German version of this article? It is rather naughty to claim to be sensitive to the feelings of Germans on this when it's patently obvious from their article what their feelings are: anyone trying to change their map to show one win would certainly soon discover what "would be more offensive to Germans". The EBU repeatedly say 'Germany' won twice. A map that says it won once is simply wrong and that is "changing history" as you call it. http://www.eurovision.tv/page/history/by-country/country?country=9

Finally you ignored my point about the map being of Europe today but you wanting it to reflect the territorial realities of pre-1990. That is the root of all this. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 15:11, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

@Vauxhall1964: When you have quite finished being so distasteful, disrespectful, and slanderous to my name - perhaps you might like to check what is written here before attacking myself with such disgusting comments.

The footnote wording for the map probably needs to be corrected. But the map itself cannot. When Germany won in 1982, despite the fact it was the FR Germany - the exact location of that territory was on the West (pre-reunification) or colloquially known as West Germany. We have shown that in the map's indent. When Germany won in 2010, it was a reunified Germany on the map of Europe - again that is shown. The map itself shows the historical factor that Germany was divided pre-1990, and also shows Germany as unified post-fall of the Berlin wall. Maybe the footnote should read "Germany has won the contest twice, in 1982 and 2010. However, their win in 1982 was during the time of East/West Germany, whilst the win in 2010 was post-reunification" (and we would be able to link to the article for those who did not know about the Berlin Wall. Wes Mouse |  16:38, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Vauxhall posted an official source that directly contradicts you, let it rest.-79.223.19.149 (talk) 17:14, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Please read Germany in the Eurovision Song Contest in which it states in the lead section Before German reunification in 1990, it occasionally presented as West Germany, representing the Federal Republic of Germany. East Germany (the German Democratic Republic) did not compete. Germany has won two contests, in 1982 and 2010. The map itself shows both of Germany's wins. However, it also makes note of the fact that the win in 1982 was Before German reunification in 1990, whilst the win in 2010 was after the German reunification in 1990. If we grey out "West Germany" in the indented map, then we would be saying that their win in 1982 was part of a reunified Germany - and that would be portraying a fallacy. Look at it another way, let's say that in 1987 the Soviet Union had been successful in their participation. Would we then have to say that although the nations of Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Russia, and Azerbaijan won once, they were part of the Soviet Union thus giving the former nations a total of 5 wins? No we wouldn't. So we cannot show a map portraying that in 1982 a reunified Germany had won, because we would be saying that the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) also participated with their Western counterpart. Wes Mouse |  17:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Your imaginary cases are not relevant - Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine and Azerbaijan do not claim to be, and are not legally recognized as successors of the Soviet Union.

Let me point out another weak spot in your argument. You write above: "Federal Republic of Germany looked like this" - Exactly, and while it did change shape, it is still the Federal Republic of Germany, the country that won two ESCs. You yourself can't even address that entity that purportedly won the first one.-79.223.19.149 (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Also the Eurovision website picks up on the point that in 1982 it was West Germany. Over 13 million West Germans watched Nicole's victory on television and her winning song became a hit in all over Europe. And again they make reference to the East/West Germany in this when they say "The fall of the European communism and the German re-unification was the main issue of the songs of the 1990 Eurovision Song Contest in Zagreb". So clearly the EBU do note the fact there was an East and a West Germany. Wes Mouse |  17:55, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I've seen a lot, but this is surely one of the silliest arguments I've seen on Misplaced Pages. The argument to assign only one win to Germany on the map implies that the pre-1989 Germany no longer exists. Need I say more?

Let me make a suggestion: With the same rigor, change every map of the USA in every context where a part of the events in question happened before Hawaii joined the Union. If you get away with it, I'll happily agree with your line of thinking.

This looks like a big fat case of POV-pushing OR to me, done by a special interest group. Get rid of it.-79.223.19.149 (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

the map is simply not true, the Federal Republic of Germany won twice not once, that is a fact - why is this page so anti-fact? 07:52, 25 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.56.181.144 (talk)

Keep it civil please. There is nothing "anti-fact". On the contrary it is historically geographically factual. If we colour the entire nation of Germany as winning twice, then we are saying in the 1980s the whole of Germany (Federal and Democratic) won; when in fact only the Federal part won - which in historical geography purpose was only West Germany. In 2010 the landscape of FR Germany was larger, and that is shown in the second map. We have to show political correctness and historical geographical landscapes based on the time period. In this case, the landscape that FR Germany looked in 1982, and the landscape it looked in 2010. You can argue this until the cows come home, but it won't get changed, as it is common logical to show how the nation looked in both eras. Would you expect to to highlight the landmass of the USSR to show that they won 5 times (as Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Russia, and Azerbaijan)? No you wouldn't. Wes Mouse |  12:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

You are all over the place calling people uncivil while threating to give them "a lashing". Maybe you should reconsider that position.

Every known source is against your position, including the ESC itself.

International law contradicts your position: (The Federal Republic of) Germany is still (the Federal Republic of) Germany. Your quasi-historical construction is followed by nobody, neither in Germany nor elsewhere, neither in politics, law, social life nor culture. Nobody denies that Germany is Germany, except you. From Germany: "The united Germany is considered to be the enlarged continuation of the Federal Republic and not a successor state."

Your position is untenable: Even now, you'd have to cover Transnistria and the Crimea, it's likely that others will follow. Are you prepared to keep the map up-to-date with events in Eastern Ukraine? Are you prepared to follow politics in Israel and Cyprus and reflect events on the map? Selfkant belonged to the Netherlands when they won 1957, will your map reflect that? Ignoring that, your map is inaccurate: West-Berlin is missing from the map and all lists in Misplaced Pages as the political entity is was until 1989. Are you prepared to fix that?

You failed to address almost every point put before you, and simply restate your position. Consensus here on Misplaced Pages is plainly against you. That should at least give you pause. You are pushing a very unique POV, and you should not revert the article to that position until you untied at least some of the knots.-91.10.30.120 (talk) 13:35, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

(Redacted) For the record, ESC themselves go against your view. Over 13 million West Germans watched Nicole's victory on television and her winning song became a hit in all over Europe (from the EBU). And again they make reference to the East/West Germany in this (from the EBU). (Redacted) Wes Mouse |  14:12, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

So your version of "civility" is calling my statements "shear evil aggression"?

Your source says, a few lines above the one you quoted: "Germany finally had its first win in the history of the song contest with its 27th try." - No mention of West Germany. And again a few lines below the one you quoted: "Finland’s entrant, Kojo, also sang about peace. His song - a protest against nuclear bombs - did not do as well as Germany's, however It received no points at all." Again, no mention at all of West-Germany.

Vauxhall's source is not merely an article, it's the result table, and it says: "Germany - Victories - Lena in 2010 - Nicole in 1982"

The rest of your argument seems to be that I am an IP and thus wrong by default. Your prejudice is noted, but it does not really hold water.

Again, you did not address the bulk of the arguments. As it stands right now, your position contradicts sources, law, custom and consensus. That is the position we are in right now.-91.10.30.120 (talk) 14:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Where is the consensus that you speak of? I see none at ArbCom? I can see why people state Germany won twice. But what people are arguing over is the map, and want to highlight the landmass of Germany in present day as having 2 wins. Doing so is incorrect. The land borders of FR Germany in 1982 and 2010 are completely different. And that is why both are highlighted on the winners map. There is the Germany as it looked during their 1982 win, and Germany as it looked in their 2010 win. On the table it still shows 2 wins, but on the map it shows 1 + 1 win, which if I am not mistaken equals 2. There is also the footnote which provides an explanation about it all. This debate has gone on for years, and has clearly not gone anywhere either. Perhaps we need to get some sort of WP:ARBCOM resolution once and for all. Wes Mouse |  15:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

To look at it another way... based on what is being said about Germany, would also apply to Serbia. Yugoslavia won once, but so have Serbia. Would that mean we would highlight Serbia on the map as having two wins, because Serbia was once part of Yugoslavia? Would we in theory have to say Croatia won once, because the contest was held in Zagreb in 1990? The map itself depicts the fact that historically, Yugoslavia won once, and in present day, Serbia won once. Back in 1982, FR Germany was half the size in landmass, compared to present day FR Germany. And that factor is depicted on the map, showing the FR Germany win in 1982, based on how the country looked then on an atlas, and the win in 2010 based on how the country looks now on an atlas. Wes Mouse |  15:44, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

When the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia broke up, the remaining part; the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (and then Serbia and Montenegro) did apply to be the "successor state", however, the United Nations Security Council Resolution 777 said that the SFR Yugoslavia "ceased to exist", and thus the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had to apply for all its memberships again. -- ] 15:57, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification, @AxG:. What do we do about Germany though? For the moment, people want Germany as it looks today to be highlighted as two wins, because Germany in 1982 was also known as FR Germany (like it is known today). However, in doing do, we'd ultimately be saying that in 1982, the German Democratic Republic also took part, and thus won alongside their Western counterpart; when it is a known fact that that is impossible. The Democratic side (aka East Germany) didn't take part in 1982. And that is why the map from how I see it, shows the wins based on how Germany looked in 1982, and how it looked in 2010. Unless, if we hatch-colour the west side to show 1 and 2 wins (1982 and 2010), and the east side as only having one win (2010). Wes Mouse |  16:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec) First of all, why do you think that consensus can only come from ArbCom? In the discussion here and in File talk:Eurovision winners map.svg, the only person defending your position is yourself. That is almost by itself "consensus". It should at the very least give you pause, and prevent you from pushing through your POV without regard.

In addition, you continue to miss a whole lot of arguments: What about law? What about custom? What about the fact that your position (and the map you defend) is inconsistent, since it ignores a whole lot of political changes? What about Algeria, Transnistria, the Crimea, Israel, Selfkant, Cyprus? Can you please respond to these arguments, instead of repeating your position again and again?

"based on what is being said about Germany, would also apply to Serbia." - No, it would not. Yugoslavia does not exist no longer anymore at all. Germany does.-91.10.30.120 (talk) 16:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

You may not like me any more Wes, but I don't have any objections with Germany having 2 wins, since yes the Federal Republic of Germany was West Germany and is the current Germany, we have all the information in the one article and ARD is the same broadcaster, and based on the reason I gave above about Yugoslavia, FR Germany retained its memberships. -- ] 16:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Yugoslavia does not exist any more, I agree. But when they won in 1989 it did exist, and that is shown in the map, because Yugoslavia won in a time of history when the country existed. Germany exists now yes, as a reunified nation. But in 1982, it was divided into West and East. What people seem to want is to highlight Germany in its current reunified status as having two wins, but in 1982 Germany was not reunified. A bit like you say that Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more. In 1982, a reunified Germany didn't exist either. A reunified Germany only existed from 1990 onwards. And that is what's shown on the map. But in the table itself, it still shows Germany as 2 wins, the map shows 2 wins too, but divided geographically based on the fact a unified Germany never existed when they won in 1982, but did when they won in 2010. @AxG: I will always like you. Who else would I turn to when I get into technical difficulties with inkscape, lol. But yes, Germany won twice, I agree. But like I point out above, Germany in 2010 was reunified, Germany in 1982 was not. In both eras they are known as FR Germany. But to highlight on a reunified Germany that they won twice, would be saying that in 1982 East Germany was part of FR Germany and also won - and they didn't. East Germany took part in the Intervision Song Contest during the time that Germany was split into "West" and "East". Wes Mouse |  16:21, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

So you repeat your position again, and you again ignore a number of arguments against your position. Let me repeat: What about law? What about custom? What about the fact that your position (and the map you defend) is inconsistent, since it ignores a whole lot of political changes? What about Algeria, Transnistria, the Crimea, Israel, Selfkant, Cyprus? What about the consensus here and elsewhere? Can you please respond to these arguments?-91.10.30.120 (talk) 16:27, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There is only one way around this that I can think of to date. The winners map has an insert showing Yugoslavia and the then commonly known "East and West Germany's". Would colouring Germany as it stands now as 2 wins, and the Germany in the insert with its 1982 win in the era that Germany was divided. Would this work, or would it cause more confusion? Well, if I am repeating, then it is clear there is an issue in regards to how the map of Germany looked in 1982 and present day - a huge flipping difference. Have we forgotten about the Berlin wall already, which divided Germany into Federal and Democratic? That was law too. Germany was seen as being a divided nation in 1982. Are we just going ignore that factual law? I doubt the citizens who lived in the German Democratic Republic, would want to be classified as being part of the Federal Republic of Germany, when FR Germany won in 1982. We need to respect them too. And you never answered my question either IP91, when I asked if you would consider pushing for a reform in how Project Eurovision operates - as we'd ultimately be able to lay to rest a lot of issues like this current too in its process. Wes Mouse |  16:35, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Yugoslavia won, but is no longer on the map - that is special situation. Germany is not.

"Are we just going ignore that factual law?" - I don't: The actual law contradicts your position and says that Germany (2015) is the same entity as Germany (1949). It shape changed, the entity did not.

"I doubt the citizens who lived in the German Democratic Republic, would want to be classified as being part of the Federal Republic of Germany, when FR Germany won in 1982." - Nobody makes that point. I'm pretty sure however that at least some of them felt like Germans when Nicole won.

"And you never answered my question either IP91, when I asked if you would consider pushing for a reform in how Project Eurovision operates" - I'm not interested in that topic, I'm interested in the article.

Still unanswered: What about the position the law has to the nature of Germany? What about custom? What about the fact that your position (and the map you defend) is inconsistent, since it ignores a whole lot of political changes? What about Berlin, Algeria, Transnistria, the Crimea, Israel, Selfkant, Cyprus? What about the consensus here and elsewhere? Can you please respond to these arguments?-91.10.30.120 (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

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