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Spartaz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

I'm a long term user (first edit 2006) and have been an admin on or off since 2007. When we first started there was so much idealism and we really had no strong policies about inclusion except a desire to have some level of sourcing. As time moved on we became more structured and around the time I became an admin in 2007 we were grappling with the concept of collapsing non notable articles into lists which I was at the forefront of as a regular afd closer and constant presence at DRV. I had a lot of patience once and for that reason was regular DRV closer for a long time after GR Berry left the project. Sadly, my patience was degraded over time and getting involved in the PORNBIO wars pretty much washed out a lot of the good faith that policy and courtesy quite rightly requires us to show. This was again a major change in our approach to content and one of the first SNGs that was deprecated in favour of a more rigid approach to proper sourcing. Since then our content in this area has become much better and we are seeing similar struggles now in the sports arena where SNGs are slowly giving way to GNG level standards.

I have always taken a very legalistic approach to closing discussions that I recognise does not fit well to the current community standard, where low participation level allowing more brigading of votes or allowing more non-policy based arguments. For this reason I'm not really closing discussions but will still happily review old closes. Otherwise I mostly review and nominate unsuitable content as a BLP is a serious matter and needs to be properly sourced.

i am willing to userfy deleted articles for improvement as long as there is a reasonable likelihood that they can be saved. If you are challenging a deletion, do you have three good sources?

Useful Links:

• Deletion Review
• Articles for Deletion
• Unblocks

Please don't leave talkback templates as I always watchlist pages when I edit and I'm perfectly capable of looking for a reply myself.

You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 20 as User talk:Spartaz/Archive19 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

Sylvester Rivers

Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/Sylvester_Rivers

Thanks, Spartaz, for your thoughtful consideration of this article. I could definitely use some help. Sylvester Rivers has recorded over one hundred albums with numerous major artists on major labels, many of which are RIAA certified gold and multi-platinum. He is the composer and co-writer of the title song of the Michael Henderson album, “In the Night Time,” certified Gold by the RIAA and in the top 10 in two of the Billboard Charts plus in the top 40 in two other Billboard Charts. WP:NMUSIC lists notability criteria as follows, “For composers, songwriters, librettists or lyricists: 1. Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition.” Sylvester Rivers is mentioned several times in existing Misplaced Pages articles and several Sylvester Rivers works have their own separate Misplaced Pages articles. The main issue seems to be verifiable sources. However, the main sources I used to verify these claims, Allmusic.com, RIAA.com, Billboard.com and Discogs.com, are the same ones used in many Good Articles on many major artists such as Tony Bennett and Nicki Minaj. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. I very much appreciate it. Riversco (talk) 03:59, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• I'll think you will find that Nicki Minaj and Tony Bennett are not relying on allmusic et al to show notability. The fact that they are used for non-N reasons has no bearing on the fact that they are not enough on their own for Sylvester Rivers to justify his own article. With regard to mentions you will see at WP;GNG that indepth is the required standard. Sorry but you need to find something more suitable. Spartaz 09:35, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
• Thanks, Spartaz, for the help. Riversco (talk) 12:19, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
• Thanks again, Spartaz, for the recent clarification. The afd nomination and negative votes were all placed when the article first posted in early draft form, with almost no book or magazine references, except those showing chart positions and RIAA gold and platinum certifications. As you noted the article was close, so I’ve added book and other references below:

1. Jones, Lesley-Ann (2012) “Ride A White Swan: The Lives and death of Marc Bolan” pp. 246-247., Hodder & Stoughton Ltd, ISBN-10: 1444758772, ISBN-13: 978-1444758771

2. MacKenzie, Alex (2009) “The Life and Times of the Motown Stars” p. 144, Together Publications, ISBN: 1842260146, 9781842260142

3. Pool, Jeannie (2007) “The Sound of Motown” http://www.asmac.org/motown-sound-panel-luncheon-november-14-2007/

4. White, Adam; Bronson, Fred (1993) “The Billboard Book of Number One Rhythm & Blues Hits” p. 91, p. 223, p. 238, Billboard Books, ISBN-0823082857, 9780823082858

Thanks, again. Riversco (talk) 06:06, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

• the online source there is primary. I don't have access to the others. Can you describe what they are and the depth of detail please? Spartaz 20:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
• Hi Spartaz, In reference 1., the author, in describing the collaborators of British rock star Marc Bolan, a/k/a T. Rex, refers to Sylvester Rivers as a “Motown legend” and references his work with Barry White, Johnny Mathis, Aretha Franklin, Ray Parker, Jr. and others. In reference 2., the author details the participants of the Motown sound and describes Sylvester Rivers as a younger pop artist and session musician who developed his skills at Motown. In reference 4., the authors cover only Billboard number one R&B hits and describes the participation of Sylvester Rivers on multiple hits. Thanks, again. Riversco (talk) 06:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
  • OK I'm considering relisting this to discuss the sources but both I and the AFD will need to see them. Do you have direct access to the sources and can you copy/scan and email/upload somewhere? Spartaz 15:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Eric Sullivan

Hello. I am a bit confused regarding your deletion decision for Eric Sullivan. Since a few years ago, Grammy is awarded to album producers as well, which is clearly stated on the official Grammy website and for which I proved evidence during discussion. So, basically nothing differs Eric Sullivan from other Grammy-winning producers. The topic clearly passes WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO. Before taking this to Deletion review, I wanted to check things with you. Cheers! --BiH (talk) 08:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

as far as I can see the Grammy was for an album not a personal Grammy. Unless there is a consensus to point to that says that counts as a personal win, I'd expect DRV to prefer a failure to meet GNG over an albums award. YMMV. Spartaz 20:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

@Spartaz:: You are mistaken here. The Grammy is awarded personally to the producers of winning albums. Thus, he won the Grammy to his very own name since he was working on the Grammy-awarded album. I believe that is a new practice from Grammy not older than a few years. That is way I was surprised by your decision especially since other users pointed that as well. --BiH (talk) 14:19, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

You don;t need to ping on my own talk page. Have you got a source for that? That the Grammy for an albumn is awarded to the producer and not the artist? Spartaz 14:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, see this link under 2013 in Winners column: "Laura Sullivan, artist. Eric Sullivan, producer." - thus two Grammys have been awarded. I have stated that in the discussion, but it was obviously ignored. Also, in Grammy Award for Best New Age Album, in second paragraph of the lead section it is stated and cited with ref no. 5: "Beginning in 2001, award recipients included the producers, engineers, and/or mixers associated with the nominated work in addition to the recording artists." --BiH (talk) 15:26, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm, Yes I did see that earlier. My problem is that its not a personal grammy and if I might quote from WP:BIO;

[[blockquote|eople are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included. /blockquote

The language there is very clear that meeting a single condition is not a silver bullet and in this case we have a BLP of an individual who most certainly fails the GNG. On that basis, and given the wider project priority around sourcing BLPs, I'd take a view that the GNG must tale preference. I'll list this at DRV for discussion. Spartaz 06:44, 7 June 2015 (UTC)