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Trolling?

This question seems to fit the bill. I don't know (and don't have time to learn) how to identify trolls, or what to do if one is identified, but I thought I'd raise the question. Marco polo (talk) 19:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

You're already learning. The colourful statements far outweigh the simple questions. This guy's not here to learn anything, and someone wanting to learn about this sort of thing probably doesn't want to read that shit first. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:27, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

Of course it's a troll if it's a question from an I.P. Disregard AGF, an IP is an IP. Just like how America was circa Jim Crow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.146.248.10 (talk) 20:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Zapped. If anyone feels that this is a serious question, and would like to enlighten the OP, feel free to reinstall. --82.164.37.199 (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

...And reinstalled as user 82.164.37.199's only edit before I had the time to post the diff: --82.164.37.199 (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with this Q. Seems to ask valid questions. StuRat (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

In case you haven't noticed, we have a flurry of IP's from Romania, Spain and Germany posting and edit warring to keep the question posted. It's obviously meant to shock and provoke. μηδείς (talk) 21:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

There are two valid questions. How does physical trauma effect miscarriage and how much blood loss is too much?. The questions aren't the problem. The stuff they're coated in is. IPs aren't exactly the problem, either. If Jimbo Wales made this same posting, he'd just be easier to block. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:50, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

I have given User talk:188.26.184.59 a 3rr warning, but we probably need another semi-protection, I don't know if it was Jayron32 or someone else who placed the last one. μηδείς (talk) 21:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• We can add Special:Contributions/58.231.145.235 of Korea to the list, but Dmacks has semi-protected the page. μηδείς (talk) 21:55, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

can someone help

I just asked a question and I think I accidently deleted it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.152.12.4 (talk) 22:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Wasn't an accident, and wasn't you. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:03, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

See WP:ADMIN. Given your prior question you might also want to take it up with the person you have in mind, since many will not want the honor. μηδείς (talk) 00:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

It isn't clear why you, Medeis, are directing the IP to administrators. Checking the page history to see why a question was deleted is a function that any editor, registered or unregistered, can do. The question wasn't redacted, which would be an administrative function. The question was deleted because the person who deleted the question thought that it was inappropriate. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

It was the answer to the question that was deleted, the OP was asking about how I believe to nominate someone for adminship. The OP could also go to WP:HD I don't know who erased the previous question or why, but I have given him his answer. μηδείς (talk) 04:37, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Uh you don't know? But the diff where the OP's question was deleted was linked in the first comment by InedibleHulk that you replied to. Why are you replying to a comment if you haven't even read the diff which was clearly a key part of the comment? If you only want to reply to the OP you should do so rather then replying to InedibleHulk which implies your comment has some relation to their comment (like you actually read it). Nil Einne (talk) 22:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I answered the OP's question. I didn't bother to look at who deleted it and don't give a mile-high, since I wasn't interested in yelling at people or assigning blame. Some of you folk seem to like getting meta just for the sake of it. I make no apologies for giving the only answer here that actually addressed the OP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs) 02:58, 20 June 2015‎ (UTC)

I believe that Nil Einne's intent here was simply to point out that your indentation made it appear as if your initial response was to InedibleHulk, particularly since it contained "your" and "you". Thank-you, Medeis, for your response to the OP -- that was certainly the right thing to do. It would have been perfect had it started with one fewer ':', but I'm sure the OP got the message and regulars here should be adept at catching indentation errors. From the wording of their comments it is clear that if your indentation did initially confuse Robert McClenon or Nil Einne, it didn't do so for long. To my ears, Nil Einne's comment sounds more provocative than it needed to be (nit-picking on the wording of your response to a response to your initial response), but we are all human here, and mis-indentation can easily put a coder on edge, and strive as we might, our emotions often influence our posts in less than charitable ways. Cheers! -- ToE 12:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Considering how many editors, including many very experienced editors, either aren't aware of indentation as described in WP:THREAD, or disagree with that and therefore choose to ignore it, I try hard not to read much into indentation, giving every benefit of the doubt. I recommend that approach for all. One very experienced editor told me authoritatively that the sole purpose of indentation is to visually offset a comment from the preceding one. When I pointed to the second box in WP:THREAD, they stopped responding and did not change their use of indentation. This attitude seems not uncommon, so indentation is not a reliable tool for its intended purpose. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:35, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

A subset of good faith editing is to have the best of indentions. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Keptin, the meta coefficient is exceeding Aleph-null. I canna hold her together if we go mooch further. Ken ya ask Mister Spawk ta put a temporary protection on the page for Gawd's seck. μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I knew you weren't talking to me. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:34, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, if I am replying to the sum of the comments above, even if not explicitly and directly to the one immediately above, I indent. μηδείς (talk) 22:02, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss, the second box in WP:THREAD is exactly correct. The second, third and fourth posts are all replying directly, and only, to the first one, so they are all indented one space in from the first one. Those three replies are not indented with respect to each other, since none of them is replying to either of the other two. The rule, in my view, is insanely simple: If you're replying to User A, indent one space in from User A's post, at whatever indent level that happens to be. In the Ref Desks, the OP does not indent. The first response should be indented 1 space. All later posts should be indented according to exactly who they're replying to, and this will not always be the OP. For example, in this thread, your post was indented 8 spaces, so my reply to you is indented 9 spaces. The comment about visual offsetting is misbegotten; sure, it has that effect when the reply follows immediately after the post it's replying to, and that's probably the majority of cases. But not all. When successive posts are at the same indent level, as happens when multiple people are replying to the same earlier user, a hard line break is very useful for spacing out the lines on the screen a little, and hard line breaks are always helpful in edit mode. I wish more people would get into that habit. It's not as if it uses up too much paper and contributes to global warming, or anything. -- Jack of Oz 00:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Request for financial advice deleted.

I've deleted a request for legal/financial advice . This was originally hatted (not deleted) by Medeis; the hat was removed in good faith by 112.198.82.19 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Tevildo (talk) 10:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

An obvious request for detailed financial advice. I think hatting would have been preferable, but the OP can find it in the history if he cares to. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:14, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

OP was asking for facts. I see no harm in referring the OP to relevant WP articles.--Shantavira| 15:30, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Had the OP simply asked if wikipedia has any information about tax law or estate planning in the UK, that would be one thing. But we've got a rather elaborate situation, including a desire for as to whether he can sell a property yet avoid tax liability. "If you need specific advice (for example, medical, legal, financial or risk management), please seek a professional who is licensed or knowledgeable in that area."

Given it's a half-million pound estate, this is the sort of thing one gladly shells out a hundred quid or two for to get professional financial planning and tax law advice. It is not the sort of thing for which you create a single-purpose wp account in order to ask the advice random strangers at the ref desk. I thought hatting was the best way to handle this on the principle of least drama, but support Tevildo's removal at this point, especially given the unhatting by an IP who geolocates in the Philippines. Whether or not we are being had, if the OP is genuine, he doesn't want to find himself explaining to Inland Revenue that according to what he read at wp he didn't think there was a problem. μηδείς (talk) 17:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

and other interesting questions

There's a guy on the Science Desk who seems very concerned with knowing if putting semen in a man's blood will infallibly sterilize him. Might be worth a hat. Sterilization is a medical procedure with legal and financial consequences (most of them positive, but that's just my opinion). InedibleHulk (talk) 20:38, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

Relax; after all, I am certainly *not* going to do anything without talking to an actual doctor about this first. Futurist110 (talk) 22:35, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

While we know from previous statements that Futurist110 has a personal interest in male sterilization, in this question -- WP:RDS#Is putting sperm directly into a man's bloodstream a guaranteed way to permanently sterilize him? -- he has not asked for any treatment advice and no one has offered any. -- ToE 21:00, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this is certainly accurate. Futurist110 (talk) 22:35, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

He's asking for help in finding a foolproof method for treating something (purely theoretical, for the time being). I don't feel too strongly about the guideline, in general, but many here seem to, so just bringing it up. It struck me as unusually tilted that way.

But yeah, so long as nobody fully answers him, we're by the book. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:18, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

Again, please relax--after all, I certainly *don't* intend to do anything without actually talking about this with a doctor first. Futurist110 (talk) 22:35, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm relaxed. And not a doctor, but I bet he says it might be fatal. That's one way to permanently sterilize a dude. Unless he freezes quick. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:44, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

Futurist110's questions seem to be random concatenations intended to draw attention. See his other sperm related threads . There's obviously an incongruent level of knowledge and feigned ignorance that makes AGF hard to apply. We have a few such outlandish regulars. The fact that the embryo in the bloodstream editor was banned as a multiple account abuser makes me wonder what and SPI would show here. But WP:DFTT is probably the best solution to such speculative silliness. μηδείς (talk) 22:00, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, my questions here are certainly *not* designed to draw attention. Rather, I am genuinely curious about these things. While I myself certainly *don't* intend to do anything without talking about this with a doctor beforehand, I don't see the harm in merely asking about this here. Futurist110 (talk) 22:35, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, for what it's worth, I have also asked this question on Reddit and I don't appear to have received anywhere near as much criticism on Reddit for asking this question as I have here on Misplaced Pages. Futurist110 (talk) 22:37, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Exactly, because chat fora are exactly the kind of place for such random speculative questions. μηδείς (talk) 23:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Futurist110, I've answered with some links including one to a review article which should help further your research. Thank you for asking this interesting question and leading me to the field of immunocontraception of which I was previously unaware. -- ToE 01:48, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Huh. Maybe the bats literally didn't go anywhere. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:59, June 22, 2015 (UTC)

I don't mean to be thick, but I fail to see how this relates to white nose syndrome. -- ToE 02:20, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't. It relates to plummeting bat numbers, like the nose thing. And like the mosquito eradication thing. And the wireless world thing. Never just one reason. I'll coin this "the application to wildlife population control thing". Catchy, eh?

I'm only about 3% into uncovering the truth (man), so I'm whispering. But don't worry, when I'm ready to blow the speculative lid off this thing, I'll do it in the proper forum. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:55, June 22, 2015 (UTC)

• I think the question is an interesting one. Obviously, sperm has some antigenic variation to it, and sperm allergy does occur. Kicks to the nuts also occur. Can they cause an allergic sort of sterility? Is that why they hurt so much? I didn't look this one up (yet) but I should say that it is quite a fair question, with a wide range of potential implications of interest, even including a whole class of potential liability lawsuits that has at the moment gone completely undiscovered. Wnt (talk) 15:26, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks: what they are and what they're not

I understood we'd agreed to confine personal disputes to this talk page, and not hang out our dirty laundry for all comers to see, such as this.

Since you've raised the issue, B. Bugs, you've been around here way long enough to know that a comment on someone's actions or behaviours cannot possibly be construed as a PERSONAL attack on them. The word "personal" in the expression "personal attack" refers to an attack on an editor personally. It does NOT refer to anything the editor has done or said. People and their actions are not the same thing. Hence, any comment on an action or a behaviour is NOT, repeat NOT, a personal attack.

For example, "You're an idiot" is a personal attack, clear and simple, because it's about what YOU ARE or ARE ALLEGED TO BE.

But "You've just made up or guessed what you just wrote there" is just as clearly NOT a personal attack, because it's not about YOU but about WHAT YOU'VE DONE. The difference ought to be starkly obvious.

(If you're so insecure that any less than glowing commentary on anything you post here is taken as an attack on you personally, then I can suggest some good therapists.)

If there really is a personal attack, don't edify the attacker (not to mention dragging the desk down to their level) by having it out with them on the front page, but bring it back here if it's worth the community's attention, or take it to their own talk page if you want to keep it between the two of you.

Please signify your acceptance of these basic tenets of human and wikicommunication, and please undertake never to disrupt the desks again for spurious reasons. Please try to set a better example to the younger ones, who are so badly in need of shining examplars exemplars in this sorry world of ours. -- Jack of Oz 23:17, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Since you can't possibly know that they are guessing, that doesn't seem like an appropriate comment, in any case. Also, if you said "You always/often/tend to guess", then you are commenting on who they are, rather than what they did in a particular instance. And, of course, any such complaints about a reply belong here, not on the Ref Desk. We don't need to fight in front of the kids. StuRat (talk) 04:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The frequency of someone's repeated action has nothing to do with who they are; it always remains a property of the action itself, albeit within the editor's control. It may be tiresome that someone often guesses when they really ought to be providing a reference once in a blue moon, but any comment on that is a comment or even an attack on the behaviour, not an attack on the editor personally. Now, if I were to say "All your relentless guessing does is demonstrate just how stupid you really are", or "You are the most awful person I've ever dealt with online", that's stepping over the line into a personal attack. As for guessing, there are often clues such as "I think", "I believe", "I feel", "It seems to me that" etc. -- Jack of Oz 05:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It's the generalizations that become a personal attack. Saying "You didn't give a reference in these cases..." is a statement of fact, while "You often don't give references" is your opinion, since what constitutes "often" is pure opinion. And expressing negative opinions about people is a personal attack. StuRat (talk) 19:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I still disagree. An opinion about one isolated case is no different, in essence, from an opinion about a generality of cases involving the same editor. As long as whatever negative aspects of the opinions there may be, remain on focus on the behaviours in question, and not on the editor personally, they do not get into the area of a personal attack. It's really quite easy to separate the two. I accept that "often" can be a judgment call; but if one can provide links to multiple cases where an editor has engaged in undesirable behaviour, that cannot be contested. That takes a little work, and most of us are too lazy/busy to do that detective work, so we opt for the fallback of saying "you often/frequently/tend to ... do X". That's still not a personal attack. A mature editor on the receiving end will not automatically treat it as a personal attack, go into knee-jerk self-defence mode, and deny everything without incontrovertible proof, or hit back with some counter-claim - but will accept there is at least a grain of truth in the other editor's point, and will work to improve their modus operandi. We all do better when we accept genuine feedback from others, because how we intend some post, or some way of expressing ourselves, to be, is often not how others receive it, and we need to hear that. It works both ways. Of course, if one is not interested in ever improving oneself, then that's a different story. I guess such people exist, but they're not on my Christmas card list. -- Jack of Oz 22:21, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

You're still insisting on making the same unsubstantiated claims that you accuse the other editor of. Not to mention polluting the Ref Desk with arguments rather than focusing on giving an answer. StuRat (talk) 01:12, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

To what "unsubstantiated claims" do you refer? To what "arguments" do you refer? Where have I "polluted" the ref desk? -- Jack of Oz 01:37, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

1) 'most of us are too lazy/busy to do that detective work, so we opt for the fallback of saying "you often/frequently/tend to ... do X".' That's an unsubstantiated claim.

2) Criticizing other editors is likely to start an argument.

3) Neither arguments nor criticizing other editors belongs on the Ref Desk proper. You should instead put your efforts into answering the Q, or perhaps making the Ref Desk a more enjoyable place by adding a bit of humor. But not answering the Q while making it a more unpleasant place is definitely not helpful. StuRat (talk) 01:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Point 1: It is unarguable that anyone who posts "You often do such-and-such" has NOT gone to the trouble of tracking down each and every instance of the editor doing that thing and providing all the relevant diffs. I really don't get why you're making an issue out of this. The reasons for their making that statement could be many, but laziness and lack of time would certainly be right up there. To be clear, I am NOT supporting people making such general statements about other editors. I was simply explaining the background to such a statement, in an effort to justify my belief that, no matter how undesirable it may be to make posts like that, it is still not a personal attack.

Point 2 goes to the very purpose of this thread. I was reminding people that responses to personal criticism/attacks should not be posted on the ref desk proper (that's aside from the fact that personal attacks shouldn't be made in the first place, either there or anywhere else). I agree with point 3. -- Jack of Oz 05:51, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

It is not the attacker's place to decide that the attackee should not take a givn comment personally. As you should know, per a discussion we had some months ago. Whatever it was I said, I didn't think it was a personal attack, but you did, so I apologized. I expect the same courtesy back from others. If the editor had said "that is incorrect" or "citation needed", instead of making a snippy and condescending comment, this whole deal would have been avoided. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

What tangent are you on? Who ever said that it's "the attacker's place to decide that the attackee should not take a givn comment personally"? That is a total perversion of what this thread is about. All I've ever said is that, IF - repeat IF - an editor feels personally attacked by something another editor writes, and they want to seek redress or take it further, that should occur either on this talk page or either of the parties' own talk pages, but not on the Ref Desk proper. This is hardly the first time this call has gone out, and I thought that you would be more aware of that protocol than most, having been a denizen of these pages longer than most. That's why your reaction to what Alansplodge said got my attention. That was the first thing (the discussion taking place in the wrong place). But on top of that, I am also arguing that what Alan wrote was not a personal attack to begin with, not by any definition of that expression I'm comfortable with. -- Jack of Oz 12:29, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I quite agree that the editor should not have made his snippy comment to me in front of the OP. And if I don't get to decide what feels like a personal attack on me, then you don't get to decide what feels like a personal attack on you, either. I withdraw my previous well-intentioned but apparently scorned apology. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Good grief, Bugs!!. You seem to be not reading anything I say. Am I speaking in Patagonian or something? Let me say it again.

* If an editor feels attacked personally, he CAN - repeat, CAN - do something about it, just NOT on the Ref Desk proper. Somewhere else.

How on earth does that become "I don't get to decide what feels like a personal attack on me"?

I'm saying you do get to decide that, and you do get to do something about it. What you just wrote is is yet another total perversion of anything I have ever said, written or thought. Your Grand Deflection to personalise this by withdrawing an apology you issued to me months ago really feels like a deliberate campaign to do anything but actually accept that the rules of this Reference Desk apply to all of us, including each of us.

I don't hold grudges, hence I've forgotten what that earlier exchange between us was all about, but I do remember it commenced on this talk page and continued on our own talk pages, certainly not on the Reference Desk. That's all I'm saying. Have these sorts of discussions behind closed doors, out of the spotlight. You were happy enough to abide by that protocol back then. Why do you have such difficulty accepting it now? -- Jack of Oz 20:40, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

My proper course of action would have been to delete his snippy comments and re-post them on his talk page. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

When we phrase our insults like that, we go from personal attackers to personal attack weasels. I believe that seems to sound much worse. No source for that term, but Googling found something relevant at the top, so that'll do. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:08, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

I was just commenting on StuRat's statement that we don't know when people are guessing. In fact, we often do. An absence of a reference is usually prima facie evidence, then there are the other tell-tale clues I mentioned. -- Jack of Oz 06:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

"An absence of evidence (sources) is not evidence of absence (of knowledge)". You are just guessing that they are guessing, which is just as bad. If you can provide evidence that they are wrong, that's one thing, otherwise it's just your guess against their statement, which may or may not be a guess. StuRat (talk) 19:34, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I guessed you'd know I understood, and would guess that I was branching off. If I know someone's an idiot, and say they "seem to be" an idiot, or "I believe you are an idiot", they can guess what I'm saying, even though I'm technically talking about me, not them.

And no, I'm not even vaguely hinting that I think you are an idiot. But by saying I'm not saying it, it still makes you guess whether I am. So we shouldn't be weaselly, even if we're not trying to attack. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:10, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

Just so we're clear, I haven't read the first link and don't know what specific thing we're talking about. I'm just about the general question of what is and isn't an attack. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:14, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

It can be tricky in real-life communication. If someone says "I don't trust you", that can be received by the hearer as an attack on them, in the sense of being told "You're untrustworthy". But on the surface it's a statement primarily about the speaker, and only marginally about the other person. If challenged, the speaker can deny they meant anything other than the literal meaning of the words they spoke. Whether the hearer believes them is up to them. So, where we have all the additional information that the non-verbals (voice tones, eye movements, etc) bring to the table, it can be easy to misconstrue the speaker's real intent, and that's just a property of the inherent complexity of RL spoken communication. But here, all we have is the words, and no non-verbals. So, it's just that much more impossible to presume to know what was really in an editor's mind when they typed whatever words they typed. Statements that are undoubtedly personal attacks should be given short shrift. Some other statements may be attacks in the mind of the writer, but it's impossible for the reader to know that, based solely on the words they post. We cannot ever get into the situation where people are punished, not even for their actual thoughts, but for what others presume to know what was in their minds. Just because A does not trust/like B because of some earlier interactions, that does not mean that whenever B says X, they're really meaning Y. Those who think they know better, usually don't. And that includes me. -- Jack of Oz 08:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Let's assume that the personal attack included in the above was merely for illustrative purposes. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

You can see the correct spelling at wikt:exemplars.—Wavelength (talk) 23:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC) and 23:52, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Jack of Oz 01:10, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Clearly the quality of personal attacks on Misplaced Pages is declining. I created a web page to address this situation: . I hope this helps. :O --Guy Macon (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• You seem to have missed DuncanHill's "fucking useless fucking hatters" 'edit summary', Jack. Now that's a classic. μηδείς (talk) 02:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• • I don't have this page on my watchlist, but someone seems to have mentioned me. "Fucking useless fucking hatters" was a general expression of frustration with the sort of people who fuck up the formatting, and hat loads of threads where one was hatted before. At the time I typed it I wasn't sure who had screwed up. I found out shortly after. DuncanHill (talk) 13:40, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I think I've said this before, but I was raised on "Sticks and Stones", so anyone's free to call me (or my momma) any filthy thing, if it makes them feel better. Just do it on my Talk Page, where innocent people don't get offended and/or distracted. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:31, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

According to Eva Perón, saying somebody uses weasel words is not a personal attack. According to me, weasels are impressive, so not a personal attack to call someone one. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:13, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

Saying that someone is prone to error is not a personal attack either, since that is something that all humans have in common. But saying "You are incapable of doing anything without stuffing it up" is a personal attack. -- Jack of Oz 06:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yep. Even if it's true. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:11, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

The editor who made that insulting comment has since apologized, so you can close this whenever you're ready. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Had you not raised the spurious issue of a personal attack, this thread would not exist. Would you be good enough to acknowledge that? -- Jack of Oz 13:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Had he not raised the spurious issue of "guessing", nothing would have happened. It didn't occur to me that I needed to explain to the OP what "third person" means. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Alansplodge's apology ("Apologies everybody, I picked up the wrong end of the stick") was, as I read it, for misconstruing the question and providing information in good faith (links and all) that turned out to be irrelevant to the OP. He apologised to "everybody", not to anyone in particular, and particularly not to you for mounting a personal attack on you, because, guess what, there was no personal attack on you, or anyone else, by anyone, including Alansplodge. But, as I pointed out at the start of this thread, even if Alan or someone really had attacked you personally, as unacceptable as that would have been, it's just as much of a crime to wage the battle with the offender right there on the front page. It'd be like 2 RL reference desk librarians having a bickering match right there in front of their clients and colleagues and other library users. It's just not on. Little kids come up with "But he started it". We don't do that. We take the offending party aside and have words behind closed doors. This talk page counts as closed doors, as does either party's personal talk page. -- Jack of Oz 22:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

If he apologized to everyone, then he apologized to me. I do agree that the proper thing would have been to delete his attack and re-post it on his talk page, with a warning not to make comments like that in front of the user. But he apologized, so it's moot. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Baseball Bugs: I think you're also getting carried away with your BLP complaint at "Who collects the reward?" I mean yes, it is technically correct to say that Roof is 'accused' of committing the killings, but of all the cases to go to the wall for, you want to pick this one? There is very little debate about this case in reliable sources. This ought to be a forum of reasonable people, not bureaucrats playing Policy Battle, and that's what complaints like that tend to make it into. Wnt (talk) 15:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• • It would be a BLP violation to call the guy "the shooter" on his article, and BLP rules apply everywhere, hence it is also a BLP violation to call the guy "the shooter" on a ref desk. If you think BLP rules are "bureaucratic", take your argument to Wales and see what he has to say about it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Sigh. I wonder if it's a BLP violation to say that Matt and Sweat escaped in the 2015 Clinton Correctional Facility escape. I mean, it's only an allegation, hasn't been proven in court; maybe we should make sure to hold open the possibility they're both still in their cells and everybody just missed them. Wnt (talk) 00:31, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Saying "they escaped" should be fine - to escape is to fulfill a fine and noble instinct. To claim that they committed any kind of crime in escaping would be a BLP violation in the absence of a specific conviction reported by a reliable source. DuncanHill (talk) 00:52, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Reliable sources say they escaped. When and if they are captured, their additional punishment, if any, will be determined according to state law. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:56, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oops, late to the party. The bigger sin in the diff IMO is that Bugs either failed to respect WP:INDENT/WP:THREAD or thought that I was making a personal attack on him. I can tolerate rudeness, give and get hurt feelings, but we should at least format it all correctly!

The bigger issue is of course a pattern of behavior. I will freely admit to chiding other users here for not using refs to support their claims. Sometimes I have chided the same user on more than one occasion, but never for a first (or second, or third) offense.

is not a personal attack! It is the Wiki way! - Use liberally at your discretion (you are not responsible for any feelings that may result from use of this template. Please consult your ethicist or manners maven for further direction. Yes this is advice. ). While I'm sure each of you is an expert at something, please don't ask me to trust you. On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog, but it doesn't matter if you can muster citations to support your claims. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It should really be for a certain percentage of unreferenced answers, not absolute count, as any ref desk regular, yourself included, is sure to have given over 3 unreferenced answers. 1000 unreferenced answers and 9000 with refs isn't that bad. StuRat (talk) 19:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It's not even about ratio, it's about when a claim needs support and when it doesn't. Here is not the place to debate the philosophy of WP:You_don't_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue compared to Misplaced Pages:You_do_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue, but as I think I have made abundantly clear, I will admit that I fall much closer to the latter approach. I have indeed posted many comments without references, but I doubt you can find many that constitute an "answer" to any question. Usually any un-referenced comments from me are discussion-oriented or clearly marked WP:OR. But I will live by my own medicine. If you or anyone else wants to call on one of my responses, I will not take it personally or call it an attack, but rather I will my best to either support the claim with a citation, or redact/flag as OR as appropriate. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

On the reference desk, all earnest attempts to answer a question should be referenced. Exceptions would be requests for clarifications, or simple comments that aren't intended to fully answer a question. Any attempts to provide a relatively complete answer should always be referenced. There are two possibilities 1) an answer is so obvious it doesn't require a reference (a claim StuRat frequently makes when called to task): if this is so, then it shouldn't even be provided: if it's that obvious, it doesn't need anyone to point it out. 2) An answer is not that obvious, and thus needs a reference. There's no reason why a person should ever answer a question with any kind of attempt at a real answer, without citing the source for their information. None at all. "citation needed" is not an accusation of lying. It's a statement that any answer which is not obvious to the question asker needs to be presented alongside references where the question asker can check the reliability of the answer. Any answer which is so obvious it doesn't need references doesn't even need to be typed out in the first place. --Jayron32 01:59, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Let's say the Q is how many days are in September. I can quickly give the correct answer. Yes, I could go find a reference to prove it, but why is that necessary ? Certainly if somebody doubts the answer a source can be easily found, but since that's never going to be an issue, looking up a source just seems like a waste of time. And we do get plenty of questions where the answer is obvious to most, but not all. StuRat (talk) 02:12, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

If the answer was obvious enough to the OP, they wouldn't have asked. If it seems obvious enough to you, you should still provide a reference. If the OP didn't need a reference for the answer, then you have no reason to answer it. Obvious to you is not obvious to the OP, and the four extra keystrokes necessary to type ] instead of merely September is not too much of a burden for you. If you can't even do that, you shouldn't be answering. This is not the "demonstrate how much smarter I am than the person who asked the question desk". It's the reference desk. Give a link. --Jayron32 03:02, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I would provide such a link, but, as you know, Misplaced Pages is not consider to be a reliable reference. So then, I'd need to read through the sources for our September article to determine which contain reliable sources on the length of the month. If none of them did, then I'd need to find other sources. That's more time than the Q is worth. "If the OP didn't need a reference for the answer, then you have no reason to answer it" is just plain wrong. Unless they specifically ask for references, it's safe to assume what they want is the answer, not the sources. In that case sources are only necessary should their be a dispute about the answer. StuRat (talk) 13:58, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

If it isn't worth your time, don't answer it. It's that simple. --Jayron32 16:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I could say the same to you, where you provide lots of refs, apparently without reading them. If somebody on the Language Desk asks for a word with a specific meaning, I suppose I could just provide a link to an online dictionary, too, and say "your answer is in there". StuRat (talk) 02:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

You know, Stu, your actions don't magically start being correct because you invent some reason to discredit the person who is pointing out that you're wrong. It is the reference desk still, and not the "make shit up first, then create fake reasons to discredit people who call me on my bullshit" desk. --Jayron32 02:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

It's also not the "throw a dozen unread refs at them and hope one happens to support what you said" Desk. StuRat (talk) 02:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I've read every reference I've ever put in a response. All of them. --Jayron32 02:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Really ? So when you provided 9 references in 10 minutes here: Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Science#.22Bringing_out_flavour.22, you read every source ? That seems impossible. Maybe you mean you just read the abstracts, which really isn't enough to know if the source answers the Q. And, since many of those sources were behind a paywall, you're really saying "Go buy all these articles, on the chance that they might answer your Q". I'm starting to see how you can provide so many sources so quickly. StuRat (talk) 03:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

So that means you can continue to provide no sources? Interesting argument. And we're not supposed to answer questions. We're supposed to provide references that could help a user answers questions. Whether or not I did or did not do anything is entirely unrelated to the idea of whether you should be encouraged to continue inventing answers and hoping no one calls you on it. You shouldn't. Give refs. The appropriateness of your actions is unrelated to whether or not I read abstracts or full articles. And I stand by my actions 100%. This is the reference desk. I provided references. What have your unreferenced, speculative, pull-out-of-your-ass answers done? --Jayron32 03:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

What have your unread, paywalled, pull-out-of-your-ass refs done? StuRat (talk) 03:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Irrelevant. You still don;t get to make up answers and avoid provide references. --Jayron32 03:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Alansplodge made the initial erroneous "guessing" comment, and then you added to it. Maybe I should have said "you all" instead of "you", in order to clarify matters. I really didn't think it necessary to go searching for a reference on what "third person" means. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Now you're just willfully misconstruing my comment there . Please don't do that, that is a classic way to argue in bad faith. I asked you two questions, and made two statements. The fact that somebody can google things does not magically make your statements references. You writing "google " is not a reference. You can argue with the previous two sentences if you like (or the final two sentences of my comment in the thread), but you'll only make yourself look silly.

And you're still missing the point. Maybe Alan was wrong. Maybe you weren't guessing. I will put this in bold caps to make sure you read it. IF YOU DON'T POST REFERENCES WE HAVE NO WAY TO KNOW IF YOU ARE GUESSING, LYING, OR EVEN JUST CORRECT BUT TOO LAZY TO LINK TO A REFERENCE. This is a reference desk, Bugs. It's kind of our thing. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying I should have linked to an explanation of what "third person" is? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I wasn't, but honestly, it's not that hard to put in some brackets so it becomes "third person", and that might be helpful in many similar cases. But that's not what I was suggesting. What I was suggesting is that if you had included any links or references with your very first comment at that thread, then probably nobody would have accused you of guessing. BTW I did google /your majesty third person/ and the first hit was wiktionary . "Your majesty" is a second person construct, and the third person form is "his majesty". But none of that is relevant to the claims you made in the comment 1) that these are "indirect" forms of address, 2) that something is customary. Actually, this is all sort of irrelevant considering that none of that was even really addressing the question.

I only jumped in because in this case you made claims with no refs, then got all insulted when someone reasonably implied you were guessing. Just earlier today, you posted some good info on the confederate flag in Charleston. But no refs! The key thing in my mind is that we should always cite something if possible. So when you see me put below comments in the future, please understand that it is not a personal attack on anyone, it's my way of requesting that we all put out better effort to make the reference desk a more useful and helpful place. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It's a third-person form with a second-person function. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:02, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Jayron32:@StuRat: I don't think that we should require people posting responses to give references every time - though beyond doubt it is better to have them than not. Making a reply without references is like showing up to a party without a food item - better than missing it, but a faux pas regardless. But when you answer without giving references, you should at least be reasonably confident that you have seen some kind of reference somewhere in your life, and aren't just guessing blindly. And there are times when I do think StuRat just gives a blind, wrong guess that really is way off the mark. Now that said, I don't think that guesses should be banned; they just need to be labelled. This is the Refdesk, after all, and questions are welcome, and so follow-on questions should also be welcome. If someone asks "why does this happen?" and you follow up "is it because...?", that's still on topic and on mission. It's only when you proclaim your guess as the truth when you know, I mean know, you just pulled it out of your butt that things go wrong. So I'd urge StuRat to think about where his 'answers' come from, and phrase/label them accordingly, and hopefully Jayron and others can live with that. Wnt (talk) 01:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Stories (short and sweet)

I have started Misplaced Pages:Long stories made short (WP:LSMS) and Misplaced Pages:Bitter stories made sweet (WP:BSMS).
—Wavelength (talk) 23:47, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

This is a very interesting idea, thanks! Obviously shorteners/sweeteners can introduce bias, but that shouldn't be a big problem as the shortening is signed, and a person can always offer a different shortening if they don't like the way one has been written. This is essentially a way of formalizing things like "What I think user X is trying to say is that Y..." - and that form of discussing can often facilitate civil conversation. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, keeping our answers short and pleasant is a worthy goal. Unfortunately, many seem to have the exact opposite goals. StuRat (talk) 02:05, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I still wouldn't mind a little wordy exposition on this mysterious sweaty, possibly Turkish culture. There's such a thing as too short. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:50, June 27, 2015 (UTC)

On topic, though, I don't like this idea at all, if you're serious. I'll delete all my posts before letting someone "fix" them. The words that go before our signatures (even when we use fake names) are meant to be ours. It's different in articles, where everything's in one voice. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:06, June 27, 2015 (UTC)

The revised version is a supplement (not a replacement) for the unrevised version. The presence of "WP:LSMS" or "WP:BSMS" or both indicates that what follows is a revision. The presence of "shortened by" or "sweetened by" and two signatures and two timestamps indicates that the preceding post is a revision. A revised post allows editors to respond either to the unrevised post or to the revised version. Please note the times of day.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah.—User:Wordy (talk) 01:00, 1 July, 2015 (UTC)

This is my reply to User:Wordy.—User:Readmuch (talk) 01:30, 1 July, 2015 (UTC)

This is my reply to User:Wordy.—User:Readalot (talk) 03:00, 1 July, 2015 (UTC)

WP:LSMS: Blah blah blah.—User:Wordy (talk) 01:00, 1 July, 2015 (UTC), shortened by User:Terse (talk) 02:00, 1 July, 2015 (UTC)

This is my reply to User:Wordy.—User:Readlittle (talk) 02:30, 1 July, 2015 (UTC)

This is my reply to User:Wordy.—User:Readabit (talk) 03:30, 1 July, 2015 (UTC)

—Wavelength (talk) 19:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Or wait, I misunderstood. Probably all the "blah blah blah" instead of actual words. If you just want to write an extra condensed/sweetened version that doesn't get in the way, knock yourself out. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:10, June 27, 2015 (UTC)

Use of inline cleanup tags at the refdesk?

I'm fairly certain this would have been discussed in the past, but my archive searches are either off the mark or returning too many hits to go through.

So it seems like there is no actionable consensus that answers should not rely on conjecture and anecdote . What about a consensus on whether or not inline cleanup tags (like these) should or should not be used? My guess is not since the refdesk shares too much in common with WP:TPO, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe section-level tags instead to avoid tagging a particular user's post or maybe there's a possibility of creating a new template that would be less easily perceived as an affront? — Rhododendrites \\ 21:01, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Fine by me. It would be nice if there were some way to indicate who put what tags where. I can just say that I tagged your second sentence, but that's a little clunky. Honestly, it seems more polite to put in a tag than to say things like "Rhodo are you making things up again?!" I know I have done the latter at times and it is a little rude, but on the other hand, our whole operation looks bad and looses respect when low-quality un-sourced "answers" abound. Section-level tags could also work as a warning that things might not all be right in a thread, but they could also cause some confusion. E.g. is it my response or yours or someone else's that was questionable and drew the flag? SemanticMantis (talk) 21:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

How dare you! :) I added "actionable" after I initially wrote that sentence because while I think most people would agree it's best to avoid answering based on conjecture and anecdote, it's constant. That is, of course, {{OR}}, though. Section-level is indeed less precise -- just a bit friendlier. First choice: no guesswork; second choice: inline tags; third choice: section-level tags; fourth choice: whinging :) — Rhododendrites \\ 21:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I don't think inline tags are appropriate here. That's for articles, where each paragraph is a consensus statement, not for a threaded discussion, where each paragraph is one editor's words. In a follow-up thread you can explain exactly what you mean, and sign it. StuRat (talk) 02:02, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Assuming you agree that answers should not rely on conjecture and anecdote, is there an alternative approach we could take to address it on the refdesks (rather than on the talk page)? — Rhododendrites \\ 02:46, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Something like "Can you provide a source for your 3rd point ? I have this source which appears to contradict it: ." That provides much more info than a "citation needed" tag. StuRat (talk) 02:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Sources are not required merely because someone may find something to contradict your answers. Sources are required because this is the reference desk. It should not be the burden of other users to check up every bullshit notion that enters your head that you feel the need to type out. --Jayron32 02:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

You're bringing your own agenda into an unrelated section. This isn't about when references are provided, it's about using inline tags on other people's comments. StuRat (talk) 03:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

It's not my agenda. It's the reference desk. I'm unimportant here. If you disagree with providing references, maybe you need to work to change the title and mission of this part of Misplaced Pages, but until you do, it is still the reference desk. --Jayron32 03:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you intend to hijack every unrelated discussion here to continue grinding your axe ? Learn how to move on. StuRat (talk) 03:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you intend to actually start providing references? --Jayron32 03:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue discussing references here. I let you get the last word in that other section, that should be enough for you. You don't need to take over the discussion in every other section too. Let it go. StuRat (talk) 03:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

You're bringing your own agenda into an unrelated section. This isn't about when references are provided, it's about using inline tags on other people's comments -- Of course this section is about when references are provided. It's about using inline tags for when references are not provided. Based on your alternative of "Can you provide a source for your 3rd point", it seems you are clearly of the position that the burden is not on the person responding to base their answer on anything in particular -- the burden is instead of everyone else to challenge that unsourced addition? I may be reading it wrong, but it seems like you would prefer a policy that allows you to respond in whatever way you want. If I'm wrong, then short of putting the burden on others, what can we do to ensure responses are based on more than conjecture, anecdote, and educated guesswork? — Rhododendrites \\ 04:02, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

There are lots of inline tags, and not all of them relate to references. I was under the impression you were asking about all of them. For example, if you want to add an inline tag that asks if a given date is Julian or Gregorian, I suggest asking that as a separate post in the thread, rather than edit that user's comments. StuRat (talk) 04:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Maybe my wording wasn't as clear as it could've been, but my intention in starting with talk about consensus regarding conjecture/anecdote was to ask about tagging as a direct alternative/response (i.e. since it seems there's no stopping these additions, can we at least tag them like we do unsourced statements in the encyclopedia.) — Rhododendrites \\ 04:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

List of Lists of Lists

I know many of us might already be aware of it, but I'd like to plug List_of_lists_of_lists as a great tool for finding WP articles to use on the ref desks. It's surprisingly broad and deep, and a good way to find that WP:WHAAOE article whose name might be a little different than you thought. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:WHAAOE is also an excellent textbook example of overlinking. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:21, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Related: User:Greg L/Sewer cover in front of Greg L’s house and User:Guy Macon/On the Diameter of the Sewer cover in front of Greg L’s house. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:31, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

If anyone finds "article whose name might be a little different than you thought", please consider creating a redirect. If anyone isn't comfortable with creating redirects, just drop a request on my talk page and (if the redirect is plausible) I will create it for you. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Redirects are easy to create once you know how it is done, but, as User:Guy Macon notes, some editors just don't know and find it easier to ask than to learn, and editors who are comfortable with redirects may find it easier to do than to explain how. Sometimes an inexperienced enthusiastic editor will do a copy-and-paste create of a new article with a different form of its name because they don't know how redirects work. Of course, redirects are the proper way to give an article multiple names, far better than creating a copy-and-paste. (Also, editors who understand redirects are much less likely to engage in move-warring, because they know that an article doesn't have to have only one name, although it has one primary name.) Robert McClenon (talk) 22:19, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Monkey butt

Baseball Bugs, is there more going on behind the scenes here regarding your edits to WP:RDS#Chimpanzee#Anatomy_and_physiology? I can't understand why you would snap at a questioner who has demonstrably made the effort to try to find their answer in our articles. Please WP:DNB. -- ToE 21:48, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Chimpanzees are not monkeys. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I really wish to respond, "So? What does that have to do with my choice of epithet for BB?", but while I trust that BB has enough of a sense of humor to distinguish between a joke and an insult, I shouldn't risk the misunderstanding of others, so instead I will say, "Thank you Robert. Fact duly noted." -- ToE 00:08, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think I was snapping at the OP. I was merely repeating what I've often seen here: When someone asks, "Why doesn't such-and-such article talk about such-and-such facts?" the response often is to invite the OP to improve the article. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:53, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Please consider the difference between the following responses:

• Hi Romanophile! You are correct that our article on chimpanzees doesn't seem to cover this, and it is an interesting topic that probably should be in the article. If you get a good answer to your question (either here or elsewhere) I would encourage you to jump in and edit the article to include the information or to post the information on the article talk page and let someone else add it if you aren't quite ready to jump into editing.

• If the article doesn't have the info, then someone needs to research it. There's no reason you couldn't do that work, unless someone turns out to be willing to do it for you.

They both basically say the same thing, but the second one (yours) is rather snarky and a bit rude. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:48, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

We may interpret questions differently, but this one struck me as just the sort of well formed question the reference desks are intended to address. They were not saying "Here is an interesting fact. Why isn't it in article X?", but instead saying "Question Q? I looked in article X but didn't find an answer." Isn't such a question an improvement over plain "Question Q?" with no indication of what effort, if any, the questioner expended seeking the answer? In this case the answer was, "Your question is indeed answered in Misplaced Pages, but in the species specific articles Pan troglodytes and Pan paniscus, not the genus specific article Pan in which you were looking." I would also suggest that when we do receive the "Why isn't it in article X?" questions, we are gentle in our suggestion that they either boldly make such an edit themself or take it up on that article's talk page because there is often an unspoken context to the question of "I expected to find this fact discussed in article X. Am I mistaken about this fact, or is there a more appropriate article Y in which I should be looking?" -- ToE 00:08, 28 June 2015 (UTC)