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Dolescum, hi. Please, let's stay grounded. 500 bytes cost nothing at all. Shall I use the word: disingenuous argument? Meant as an objective observation, please don't feel offended, but think about it. As I pointed out, you yourself have proven that if smth. is not VERY easily readable and comprehensible, it gets overlooked. I mean when you undid a format correction ("Small Basilica" behind ]]; right after that, somebody removed it altogether as "bad format" because of your revert) along with that "whitespace" that gives you so much heartburn. Only professional proofreaders can detect issues hidden in a crowded layout. You don't need VisualEditor and I don't either. But an easy-to-read layout serves everyone. Make an empirical test and ask 10 of your friends to look at the info with and w/o my layout, without telling them anything in advance, and ask them what's easier to comprehend. Or save yourself the time and the jokes, because you know the answer as well as I do. It's common practice, even if not used by all. // Macedonia is a great country with difficult history. I loved visiting it and I know it's full of interesting topics. Let's use our time on those. If I may suggest you one: the film "Before the rain" and how it's still painfully relevant. Or the Vlachs and their role in Macedonian national awakening in C19. Byzantine church art. A wonderful Byzantine church used as a bar in an Albanian-majority town (enjoy googleing for the name :) Macedonian self-irony and humour in general. Gypsy self-confidence and emancipation. Etc. Much richer than whitespaces, and at least some of it good for WP. Cheers, ] (]) 12:55, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Arminden
Dolescum, hi. Please, let's stay grounded. 500 bytes cost nothing at all. Shall I use the word: disingenuous argument? Meant as an objective observation, please don't feel offended, but think about it. As I pointed out, you yourself have proven that if smth. is not VERY easily readable and comprehensible, it gets overlooked. I mean when you undid a format correction ("Small Basilica" behind ]]; right after that, somebody removed it altogether as "bad format" because of your revert) along with that "whitespace" that gives you so much heartburn. Only professional proofreaders can detect issues hidden in a crowded layout. You don't need VisualEditor and I don't either. But an easy-to-read layout serves everyone. Make an empirical test and ask 10 of your friends to look at the info with and w/o my layout, without telling them anything in advance, and ask them what's easier to comprehend. Or save yourself the time and the jokes, because you know the answer as well as I do. It's common practice, even if not used by all. // Macedonia is a great country with difficult history. I loved visiting it and I know it's full of interesting topics. Let's use our time on those. If I may suggest you one: the film "Before the rain" and how it's still painfully relevant. Or the Vlachs and their role in Macedonian national awakening in C19. Byzantine church art. A wonderful Byzantine church used as a bar in an Albanian-majority town (enjoy googleing for the name :) Macedonian self-irony and humour in general. Gypsy self-confidence and emancipation. Etc. Much richer than whitespaces, and at least some of it good for WP. Cheers, ] (]) 12:55, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Arminden
PS: I had to copy-paste this back in, since while writing it the discussion had advanced by 3 more contributions. Happy to see where it's heading for. I like the "my inner engineer" bit. I've got some of that, too, but most people don't and prefer airy layouts.
PS: I had to copy-paste this back in, since while writing it the discussion had advanced by 3 more contributions. Happy to see where it's heading for. I like the "my inner engineer" bit. I've got some of that, too, but most people don't and prefer airy layouts.
== The new name for Greece; FEROG ==
I think that we should start seriously thinking about calling new Bankrupted Greece as FEROG (Former European Republic Of Greece), just like Greeks call Macedonia as FYROM. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:16, 4 July 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Revision as of 09:46, 4 July 2015
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A user has twice inserted a picture of a coat of arms 8 (that apparently isn't official one of Macedonia) and nothing else in the section on culture. It's unclear what the story is, and why it's relevant; the user has made no attempt to explain it. The user is welcome to discuss, but a non-official coat of arms does not seem relevant here. Jeppiz (talk) 21:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
It's a mural crown. Please keep in mind that this is heraldry, not logomaking. Therefore other conventions apply when it comes to the validity of a representation. The one uploaded to commons is in fact a valid representation. I've replied at the pump. Ssolbergj (talk) 00:12, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
In short, we all agree that this coat of arms is the recolored coat of arms of Belgium, not the proposed new coat of arms of Macedonia. That being the case, it has nothing to do in this article.Jeppiz (talk) 12:22, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
The shield looks like that of Belgium and Scotland. That is how heraldry works (as the contributors at Commons Village pump pointed out). The job of the artist contributing to Commons is to interpret the blazon:
Or, a Lion Rampant Gules. The shield is crowned with a golden-yellow mural crown with five towers, placed on a golden diadem adorned with rubies and pearls of Macedonia.
This is a proposal by the government, and belongs in this article because the current state emblem, in the infobox, is so controversial.
I'm not sure it belongs in the article before it has been passed, as per WP:NOTNEWS. And when/if it is passed, it should be the correct coat of arms, not the coat of arms of Belgium in different colors.Jeppiz (talk) 19:30, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Wait, people. Have we even got reliable sourcing for this government proposal?
I get Ssolbergj's argument that in traditional heraldry, coats of arms are defined by a blazon and the graphical realization is left to the artist's interpretation. But then, is the Macedonian symbol defined in this way? It seems to me this would entirely depend on how the government/legislature chooses to define it. If they say: "the new coat of arms will be the one shown in such-and-such a draft graphic", then that specific graphic is the only authoritative source, and only that graphic realization is the true state symbol. So far, we seem to have absolutely nothing in terms of official sourcing for this thing at all. The only sources cited (here and at Proposed coat of arms of Macedonia) are from that private society of heraldly enthusiasts, "heraldika.org.mk". I doubt they even count as a WP:RS in principle. But even that society is quoted as having described a "most acceptable design", said to have been submitted by one Miroslav Grcev – that sounds very much like Grcev submitted a graphic realization, not a blazon description. So, where is the actual government proposal? Fut.Perf.☼07:29, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Here it is. I would assume the constitution only will specify the blazon, like most European constitutions do. If not, the Macedonian Heraldic Society has been giving poor advice to the government. - Ssolbergj (talk) 11:16, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2015
This edit request to Republic of Macedonia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
@Arminden: There is no need for that whitespace you want to add. All it does is take up space that the foundation has to pay for. If you're having trouble reading the markup language, might I recommend VisualEditorDolescum (talk) 11:57, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
On the other hand, the whitespace in question takes up a lot less server space than what you've just used in posting to this talkpage, and certainly a lot less than what you both just added to the article history by reverting it, so could we perhaps just not get too fussed up over it? Fut.Perf.☼12:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
I know. Still, Jeppiz jumped on me for edit warring and my inner engineer balks at seeing such unneeded usage of databse space... Dolescum (talk) 12:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
If I may, I didn't "jump on" you. Seeing you and Arminden engaged in an edit war, I posted an identical post on the talk pages of both of you, encouraging you to discuss here rather than keep reverting each other.Jeppiz (talk) 12:31, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Dolescum, hi. Please, let's stay grounded. 500 bytes cost nothing at all. Shall I use the word: disingenuous argument? Meant as an objective observation, please don't feel offended, but think about it. As I pointed out, you yourself have proven that if smth. is not VERY easily readable and comprehensible, it gets overlooked. I mean when you undid a format correction ("Small Basilica" behind ]]; right after that, somebody removed it altogether as "bad format" because of your revert) along with that "whitespace" that gives you so much heartburn. Only professional proofreaders can detect issues hidden in a crowded layout. You don't need VisualEditor and I don't either. But an easy-to-read layout serves everyone. Make an empirical test and ask 10 of your friends to look at the info with and w/o my layout, without telling them anything in advance, and ask them what's easier to comprehend. Or save yourself the time and the jokes, because you know the answer as well as I do. It's common practice, even if not used by all. // Macedonia is a great country with difficult history. I loved visiting it and I know it's full of interesting topics. Let's use our time on those. If I may suggest you one: the film "Before the rain" and how it's still painfully relevant. Or the Vlachs and their role in Macedonian national awakening in C19. Byzantine church art. A wonderful Byzantine church used as a bar in an Albanian-majority town (enjoy googleing for the name :) Macedonian self-irony and humour in general. Gypsy self-confidence and emancipation. Etc. Much richer than whitespaces, and at least some of it good for WP. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 12:55, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Arminden
PS: I had to copy-paste this back in, since while writing it the discussion had advanced by 3 more contributions. Happy to see where it's heading for. I like the "my inner engineer" bit. I've got some of that, too, but most people don't and prefer airy layouts.
Done, thanks for the suggestion. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)