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Africa: Senegal Stub‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Senegal (assessed as Mid-importance).

Disruptive Edits

I would like to ask whomever it is (Tamsier, 86.144.235.27, etc.) that keeps disrupting this page with strange edits to please cease. Arbitrary bolding, a cascade of obscure names without context or explanation, unconnected outlandish statements (some with chauvinistic overtones), etc. have rendered this article incomprehensible. Naming one book repeatedly (with no page references) is not quite "inline citations". I take it from the structure of your phrases that you are probably not a native English-speaker, which doesn't really help in keeping things clear. The objective of this encyclopedia is to make information understandable, not simply to pile it on. I'd be happy to help smooth over the language, but I can't make heads or tails out of your statements. I'm reversing your edits for now. If you have something to contribute, please try to make it as simple and understandable as you can - remember, most people who will be reading this have no idea about Senegalese history, so introductory context is helpful and necessary. Please provide appropriate citations. Please refrain from opinionated statements. Give the article some structure. And please don't bold things arbitrarily. Walrasiad (talk) 04:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do not refer to my name when insulting others. You come across as very rude and arrogant. Tamsier (talk) 20:25, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Gravrand dates this state to the 14th century

Look at : "Yet a closer look at other sources sheds a more nuanced light on Siin’s deeper past, with implications for its more recent history. Archaeology, for instance, suggests links with neighboring tumulus- and megalith-building societies, and trans-Saharan trading spheres beyond (S. K. McIntosh and R. J. McIntosh 1993; S. K. McIntosh 2001). Next, historical memory paints the region as a vibrant cultural frontier, shaped by migrations and cultural fusion. Oral traditions are rife with narratives of sweeping population movements from the north and the south, and trace the emergence of a kingdom to Mandinka migrations in the 14th century (Becker et al. 1991; N. Diouf 1972; Gravrand 1983; Sarr 1986- 1987). When documentary sources pick up the story, they depict the Siin as an active participant in Atlantic exchanges early on, and a more modest player after the 17th century," Gravrand, R.-P. H. 1983. La Civilisation Sereer. “Cosaan,” Les Origines. Les Nouvelles Éditions Africaines, Dakar. So if this is correct, Gravrand says Sine|Siin is a 14th century kingdom at the earliest. Dougweller (talk) 18:15, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Anthem etc

I have scrapped the section that claimed there was an anthem and all that: the claim is rather unusual, and its source (behind a kind of link to Gravrand which smacks of OR, and we know Gravrand isn't always to be trusted) was this article--and that article cites no material whatsoever, and is published in a journal in whose quality I don't have a lot of faith. Drmies (talk) 14:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

In any case, it doesn't even suggest that the anthem, etc are older than the 19th century. It's not even clear that Gravrand says that. Dougweller (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Tags added today

I can't understand these tags for quotes from sources that clearly meet our criteria for sources, and have raised them at WP:RSN in the section headed Are {{dubious }} and {{opinion }} tags appropriate for these quotes by reliable sources ?Doug Weller (talk) 09:35, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Doug Weller and his POV pushing on Serer and African related article.

I will not give them the satisfaction responding to the above silly comments and personal attacks directed at me by bias and agenda driven editors especially in relation to articles concerning Sub-Saharan Africa and her people. Their attempts to discredit me and my edits is nothing more than agenda driven. If they have they their wish, every single article that addresses civilisations in Sub-Saharan Africa will be deleted, because that goes against their Eurocentric views and POV pushing agenda. My contribution to Wiki on African related articles (not just Serer articles) over the years speaks for themselves, whether you like them or loath them. The views of these Eurocentric POV pushers do not interest me. My life does not revolve around Misplaced Pages. Moving forward, I opened this section about this User:Doug Weller who has a long history of advancing his agenda driven POV on Serer and African related articles. All you have to do is look at the talk pages of Serer articles and you will see what I mean. This editor, copied and pasted unreliable sources on several Serer articles to advance his POV (see below).

According to the historian David Galvan, "The oral historical record, written accounts by early Arab and European explorers, and physical anthropological evidence suggest that the various Serer peoples migrated south from the Fuuta Tooro region (Senegal River valley) beginning around the eleventh century, when Islam first came across the Sahara." Over generations these people, possibly Pulaar speaking herders originally, migrated through Wolof areas and entered the Siin and Saluum river valleys. This lengthy period of Wolof-Serer contact has left us unsure of the origins of shared "terminology, institutions, political structures, and practices."

Professor Étienne Van de Walle gave a slightly later date, writing that "The formation of the Sereer ethnicity goes back to the thirteenth century, when a group came from the Senegal River valley in the north fleeing Islam, and near Niakhar met another group of Mandinka origin, called the Gelwar, who were coming from the southeast (Gravrand 1983). The actual Sereer ethnic group is a mixture of the two groups, and this may explain their complex bilinear kinship system".}

Eventhough they are quotations, I tagged them as dubious and opinionated . This editor then took the matter to RSN (here is my last response, you can read it for yourself -see: "Are dubious and opinion tags appropriate for these quotes by reliable sources?"). Before I even commented, he reverted my edits . For posterity, I will copy and paste my response to this guy here i.e. why I tagged these articles. He is free to copy and paste or respond here, but below are my response to the issues he raised at W:RSN :

Response 1

It is good etiquette to notify the person under discussion. The person who opened this discussion and I have had several disagreements over the years regarding African and Serer related articles in particular. Following my return to Wiki, I saw the numerous nasty comments he has left on some of the Serer talk pages directing them at me, backed by his Wiki friends some whom have hounded me from this project. I ignored those comments and did not dignify them with a response. I will not comment or pass judgment on another editor's remark about his racial bias, but from my experience dealing with him over the years, I find his edits to be racial motivated when it concerns articles relating to Africa especially Sub-Saharan Africa. Whether that is conscious or unconscious I don't know. I will state it here and will have no problem stating it elsewhere. My life does not revolve around Misplaced Pages. Because of the hatred he has for me, he has been targetting Serer related articles, which I have been active on, and providing selective sources which not only goes against general consensus, but substantiated no where else by reliable sources. He is merely doing that to advance his own POV, but most importantly to infuriate me. Little does he know that he is not actually infuriating me, he is destroying the Misplaced Pages project. Forget about the Kingdom of Sine for a minute (which I will come back to and will address wholesale with Serer history and Serer people, because he copied and pasted the same material in all three articles, see Serer history#Resistance to Islam, 11th century and Serer people#Ethnonym), a good example of his POV pushing is the Kingdom of Saloum article. Every reliable source would state that the Kingdom of Saloum was a Serer Kingdom along with the Kingdom of Sine from the medieval period. All one has to do is search for Kingdom of Saloum on Googlebooks and all reliable source would attest that it was a Serer Kingdom. This editor in his wisdom, skipped all those sources and went and select an obscure source (Saine, Abdoulaye (2012). Culture and Customs of Gambia. Greenwood Press. p. 13. ISBN 978-0-313-35910-1) who state that it was a "Serer or Wolof kingdom". There is no argument there are/were Wolof people in Saloum, but as noted by Diange (Diange, Pathé. "Les Royaumes Sérères", Présence Africaines, no. 54. (1965), p. 142-172) and Klein (Klein, Martin A., "Islam and Imperialism in Senegal Sine-Saloum, 1847–1914", Edinburgh University Press (1968), p.7) the Wolof were immigrants to Saloum. Even the Wolof do not consider Saloum as one of their kingdoms. Forget about Serer readers for a minute, but any Wolof reading that would probably laugh and loose all confidence in the reliability of Misplaced Pages especially if they are doing some academic research. Yes, I saw that edit too but I ignored it. He is not scoring points with me, but destroying the project. I will now move to Serer history especially the section under King Njaajan Njie. This editor selected specific sources that talk about the nobility of this King not within a Sub-Saharan African context, but within an Arab context, by saying that this medieval Senegambian King's father was an Almoravid. Note that, anyone who knows the history which this editor doesn't, would know that the Almoravid being referred to is no other than Abu Bakr ibn Umar, as stated in his own article. Every reliable source agrees pretty much that Njaajaan ruled Jolof in the 14th century, which was 300 years after the death of Abu Bakr ibn Umar. This editor was selective quoting trying to advance his own POV and agenda. The earliest written narrative/epic about Njaajaan was recorded by the French governor of Goree in Senegal (in the 1700s) - Alexandre Le Brasseur and reproduced by Jean Boulègue in his book "Le grand Jolof p. 25-6". Apart from the oral tradition, every written record about Ndiadiane (specifically) originated from Alexandre's work because it is the earliest written source specifically about Ndiadiane and the Jolof Empire. I saw the nasty comments and false accusations he left on the Almoravid talk page where he claimed that the original performance I was referring to was Samba's work. See the talkpage of Almoravid dynasty under "See above: "In Ndiadiane Ndiaye's epic, scholars observed that:". That debate between some editors and I all those years ago were put to rest. There was no reason to hound me there as he has done on several articles trying to discredit me. Oh for your, information, I was not referring to Samba, it was Alexandre's work I was referring to when I wrote "original performances." Anyone who knows the subject would have known what I meant. I would rather you ask me than run around making false accusations against me on talk pages. I know the history of my people and the Senegambia region better than an obscure American Misplaced Pages editor. Please do not try to change our history. Thank you very much. And this is not about W:OWN. This is about present material in a neutral manner, using reliable and verifiable sources with respect to weight, as stated in Misplaced Pages policy. Although "fact" may not be one of the principles of Misplaced Pages, every good editor try to present the facts in the spirit of Misplaced Pages policy, because without fact, there is no need for an encyclopedia. I would rather all these Serer and African related articles be brought down than spreading false information by an editor known his his racially motivated edits and with a long vendetta against me. Misplaced Pages articles are highly ranked in Google. Some readers read these articles and believe in what has been written without doing their own work. If POV pushers like this editor are editing articles based on their own biases, it is dangerous to the project. By the way the OP has reverted my edit . If you have an issue with Serer or African related articles being made available on Misplaced Pages, delete them. It is as simple as that. It is much better to delete them or reduce them to a stubb than putting out there factually dubious claims. I will still sleep at night whether they are on Misplaced Pages or not. Generally speaking, it is much better to delete articles or reduce them to a stub than to present factual bias, or worst, incorrect material driven by someone's own agenda.

Furthermore, Galvan is not qualified to make such a statement. His book is about Serer lamanic custom and land in particular. He has no background on languages African or Serer to make such expansive claims. No reliable source who have studied the subject have ever attested that. The closest we have is that Serer and Pulaar are similar. But to jump from that and say the Serer people who migrated were Pulaar speaking is dubious and Galvan's own opinion which he is neither qualified to make nor is it supported by any reliable source. Galvan should have stuck to Serer land law / inheritance (which is what the book is about) than going outside his remit. Étienne is unreliable, because he has confused the Guelowar dynasty (who arrive in Sine in the 14th century according to all notable and reliable sources) and the Serers of Sine who were already there. To jump from that and say the Serer existed in the 13th century is factually dubious. Note that, he or the editor cite Gravrand but did not state the page number. I have Henry Gravrand's book. Please state the page number and I will look it up. These are the reasons why I tagged them.

He then insisted on the reliability of the sources he cited according to "our criteria" but could not refute my arguments above. Then I responded as follows:

Response 2

And what criteria would that be? A criteria you invented or a Misplaced Pages criteria? For a source to be deemed reliable, the author must be qualified in the subject. Further, even authors have to cite reliable sources. Neither of these people you have cited are qualified on the subject or cited references to support the claims you have cherry picked to push your own POV. I will state it again since you have missed it the last time: Galvan's book is about Serer customary land law/ lamanic land inheritance, which he wrote by interviewing some Serers and cited them as primary sources. He went against the remit of his book by making expansive claims which he provided no refs for, not to mention not qualified to make such a claim. He is the first person that I've ever seen made such a claim. There are numerous scholars who are qualified on the subject, well verse in Serer history, languages and culture and have worked extensively with these people for decades but have never made such a claim. To take his claim as fact and insert it in the article under the guise of quotation is nothing more but disingenuous. It is dubious and an unqualified opinion no matter how you frame it. As for your comment on Étienne, I will take it that he did not provide a page number when he cited Henry Gravrand? Therefore, I now take issue with using Étienne for two reasons: 1. In his haste, he mixed up the Guelowars with the Serer who were already living in Sine as you well know since you co-edited the Serer history and Guelowar articles, and cited Alioune Sarr ("Histoire du Sine-Saloum (Sénégal)" Introduction, bibliographie et notes par Charles Becker. 1986-87), a paper you knew about thanks to me because I cited him before. All mainstream reliable sources state that the Guelowars arrived in the Sine in the 14th-century. You knew this yourself because you co-edited some of the Serer articles. To go from there and cite an author who clearly hasn't done his homework properly is disingenuous. He clearly hasn't done his homework because if he had, he would not have made such a silly statement that the Serer are a mixture of Mandinka and only came about in the 13th-century. Even Galvan, the person you cited above made reference to the fact that the Serer were resisting Islamization back in the 11th-century. That fact is well known and record in all mainstream sources. If Étienne has done the leg work, he would have known that rather than make his ridiculous claims which is unscholarly. Of course you were not interested in facts or Wiki policy on neutrality and weight. You were only trying to advance your own agenda. I remember you stating somewhere that the Serer are a recent ethnic group around the 14th century when plenty of sources disagree (here are some sources that may interest you: (1. Chavane, Bruno A., "Villages de l'ancien Tekrour: recherches archéologiques dans la moyenne vallée du fleuve Sénégal", KARTHALA Editions (1985), p. 10, 28, ISBN 9782865371433; 2. Asante, Molefi Kete; Mazama, Ama; "Encyclopedia of African Religion", SAGE Publications (2008), ISBN 9781506317861 - I threw in Molefi there because one of your chums on the Serer talk page I believe kept stating there are no Serer references in Molefi's work. Clearly they did do their homework because it is available on Google books). You then went on copying and pasting unreliable sources everywhere: this and this. For someone who once claimed to be very thorough when it comes to reliable sources. Please! I bet you couldn't believe your luck when you stumbled upon Étienne, or dear I say entered certain keywords on Google search to justify your POV. Sorry, he is not reliable and anyone that claims otherwise is not truly interested in creating an encyclopedia, but an encyclopedia full of bias and factually in accurate material. 2. The other issue I take with Étienne is that, he cited Gravrand but did not provide a page number. You have addressed him as "professor" in some of the Serer articles when you inserted his unreliable material. You inserted the title "professor" solely to give him credibility and advance your POV. A professor/scholar cite his sources in full, not just provide a name of the author and year of publication. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. He is not reliable. Neither of them are reliable for the claims you have cherry picked to support your POV. That is the reason why I tagged the article. As for your Martin Luther King claim, don't take me for a full. Not for one minute do I believe you will be made to revert your edits back to my tags even after demolishing your agenda driven unreliable source citations. Therefore, I will be copying and pasting some of what I've stated here to the relevant talk pages.

This editor has a long history of pushing his Eurocentric POV on Sub-Saharan African /Serer related articles. Since he could not rebuke my argument at RSN, I doubt he could do it here. Therefore, I will not be wasting my time responding to any comment he may have unless he can back up the reason he has cherry picked those sources to advance his POV which goes against any mainstream reliable sources. Unless he offers something new, I will not be wasting my time. All I got from that RSN debate was "I am the Administrator. I can do whatever the hell I like and you can't do nothing about it." Take a look at RSN link above and see how he worded his response, to gather support against me. As he has done on numerous occasions including here . My conscious is clear. I sleep at night very well. And I have a life outside Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Tamsier (talk) 10:51, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

1. ^ Galvan, Dennis Charles, The State Must Be Our Master of Fire: How Peasants Craft Culturally Sustainable Development in Senegal Berkeley, University of California Press, 2004 p.51
2. Van de Walle, Étienne (2006). African Households: Censuses And Surveys. M.E. Sharpe. p. 80. ISBN 978-0765616197.

• Stub-Class Africa articles
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• Stub-Class Senegal articles
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