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IMPORTANT: A last short needed look

Please see possible "closing arguments" here, . Settling this there, n that way, would end the issues raised in inordinate length earlier. Consider a final persuasive comment, on any matter you wish? Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk)

Progress at Ayurveda

Many of the editors at ayurveda have been blocked as socks of each other (Delibzr (talk · contribs), Bladesmulti (talk · contribs), నిజానికి (talk · contribs), VandVictory (talk · contribs), AmritasyaPutra (talk · contribs)) and you've placed a few of our other more troublesome cases on 0RR restrictions. Think you might be able to have a discussion with John and get the full-protection lifted and the somewhat strange set of sanctions modified to something more workable? It's quite apparent that he places no value on my opinion.—Kww(talk) 00:46, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Not me, it is a mistake. In my opinion others are also collateral damage. --AmritasyaPutra 19:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking about that myself. I'd personally like to see an RfC or some sort of rough consensus regarding how to address the pseudoscience thing before opening the article up again. I have a feeling the uncertainty of the last RfC, tainted by the socks, will lead to an edit war if the article is unprotected right now. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I've asked Robert McClenon to consider reclosing the RFC. "Tainted" is a pretty mild way to describe that last one.—Kww(talk) 01:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I think a new RfC would be better...one that avoids the false dichotomy. I'd love for someone to take this and run with it...I know far too little about the subject to make a good RfC myself, and it wouldn't be proper anyway. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks like he's striking the old one out and plans to discuss starting a new one.—Kww(talk) 02:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Administrative actions

I've placed an edit-notice on my talk page directing editors that want to question any of my past actions to talk to you. Let me know if you object.—Kww(talk) 17:33, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been offline quite a bit lately...out of state teaching at a summer music camp and I accidentally threw my smartphone in the lake on Thursday. I don't object, but it might take me a day or so to get back to people. ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it appears it will be a permanent arrangement, so a few days won't matter much in the great scheme of things.—Kww(talk) 11:38, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Ugh, I'm sorry. Best of luck to you ~Adjwilley (talk) 12:55, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Standard Offer unblock request for Technophant

Technophant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Technophant has requested an unblock under the standard offer. As one of about 60 editors who has contributed to User talk:Technophant you may have an interest in this request. Sent by user:PBS via -- MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:48, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

In re: article tags

Adj, long time. Hope all is well. Saw you discussing tagging on a Talk page, and wanted to cast five quick votes. First, in re: tagging's purpose as being to draw editors: Mostly, I agree, but note, I routinely start, on arriving at an article, with seeing if I can address tag issues, esp. if they are old, and esp if avail. time and research resources allow for their speedy resolution. (E.g., correcting a single citation in a subject that I have applicable research tools, YES, will try to do so; addressing a whole section issue such as the "History and development of the concept" section at Species, which remains an unsourced wall of text, NO, will pass on editing in response to tags.) Hence, I approach the tags in this way out of respect for careful other editors. (Note, my earlier "Expert needed" and "Cleanup" tags placed on that 90% unsourced section in 2014 or so were removed, because it "made the article look bad".)

Second, I place tags because I think our readers deserve it. We, as scholars, have developed via training and years of experience, quick skills of discernment that allow us to perceive if a statement, paragraph, article is spot-on or likely untrustworthy. Our readers lack this training and facility. I had a secondary school-aged nephew recently tell me he had "never found a WIkipedia article untrustworthy," and then, after being shown inaccuracies, see him appear confused; moreover, on seeing two articles, one with tags, the other without, hear him state, "Well, I guess I need to consider the truth of everything I read online." This latter state of interpretive sophistication is where we want our readers to be, and not accepting what they read on blind faith, and the path to such an awareness of flaws is (I argue) openness on the part of WP editors.

Third, adding tags is intellectually honest, calling the good as good, and the bad for what it is. It is the same reason we mark student papers thoroughly, and not just with a final grade at the top. Improvement only happens with specific address of flaws. This leads us to the fourth: as another editor recently said (with regard to not clearly sourcing Chembox data) "your system isn't the best one because you separate ... source and this is contradictory behaviour for a reference work using quite a lot of different sources" search for User Snipr, here, which I use as a springboard to say that to not tag unsourced information is contradictory to our principles (and bordering on deceptive, to the point we are aware of the naive perceptions of young readers, as I have just mentioned).

FIfth and finally, the same author there makes an observation that I have repeatedly seen to be true, that a "contributor will do… what is done usually. People work by mimicry and if the trend is to…" omit citations, cite general lists that fall short of verifiability, etc., then on finding an article in such a poor state, incoming editors, especially the less experienced will take the status quo to be acceptable practice. The point of adding tags at this point is to say, "Oh no you don't, the standard is still WP:VERIFY, so if you are going to add things, you have to source. Don't take the status quo as a carte blanche invitation to add material without it being verifiable." Tags mediate (remediate) this change in incoming editor perception, and bad articles are slowed in getting worse, and good ones keep getting better.

Hence, from my perspective, however much tags make articles appear imperfect—and in need of scrutiny and correction—in making them look that way, we are adhering most closely to the truth of the subject, and presenting what will, in the long run be a more reputable product, to what will eventually become a more discerning reading public. And if push comes to shove, my concern is always more for the readership, than for our feelings or appearances. All from me on this, just wanted you to hear a well thought out alternative perspective (here, where it does not muddy a focused article conversation). Cheers, Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 19:51, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the note. I think I agree with you on a lot of these points. The main problems I have with article tags have mostly to do with how they are used. I don't like it when a random editor leaves a tag at the top of an article and then moves on, never to edit the page again. For example, someone recently placed an {{overly detailed}} tag at the top of an article on my watchlist without bothering to explain which parts of the article they thought had too much detail. I removed it because it was not useful.

The other thing that bugs me is when tags are used as a weapon in disputes. Somebody might dislike something about an article, but upon failing to get consensus to change it, they slap a "disputed" or "POV" tag on the article, in effect holding the article hostage until they get their way. People will sometimes spend more time arguing about whether an article should be tagged than they do actually trying to solve the underlying problem. A recent (ongoing) example of this is at User talk:Les Vegas. (See also this edit for context.)

I'd be interested to know if anybody has done a study on how useful tags are in attracting new editors to problem articles. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:59, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Is there a place?

Thanks for putting an end to the ABF, reading between the lines, etc on DrChrissy's page. But is there really any place on WP that its acceptable to do this? AlbinoFerret 22:41, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Honestly I'm not sure. It might be worth looking into WP:DR and WP:DRN. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The problem is, as is evident from this post , a topic I am prevented from discussing is bound to pop up. I also dont think that post which is the main problem is a good candidate for WP:DR and WP:DRN. Its a behaviour issue, do you really think those places would be appropriate? AlbinoFerret 01:36, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

It looks like its continuing. today Jytdog posted an accusation about me on AN/I "generally pro-altmed/anti-WP:MED editors like AlbinoFerret". I would like to be cleared to address this. I am asking here because the topic of my self appointed break from a topic is bound to come up. I have asked him nicely to remove the comment, but he has declined. AlbinoFerret 14:54, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

It appears that the topic has already been raised.. Am I allowed to mention the topic now? AlbinoFerret 19:38, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Talking about the "ban" itself is "legitimate and necessary dispute resolution" at the noticeboard. I'm not sure how much needs to be said...you probably shouldn't start talking about e-cigarettes other than to clarify details about the banbreak itself. I haven't had time to follow the AN/I thread today other than a quick perusal. (I just spent the day putting new shocks and struts on my car, which mostly involved a frustrating fight against really stubborn bolts and realizing that despite all my preparation I still didn't have the right tools for the job.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:06, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

In the end it wasnt necessary to bring anything up, nor did I want to, even now I would rather avoid it. I thought it was going to go in that direction but it didnt. Had it gone down that road I would have stepped back and waited for your response.

I can relate to the car work, back when I could work on my cars I often had a similar problem. Lucky for me, my brother in law who lives about a mile away has every tool you could think of. But every time I would get into fixing the car, he would be gone just at the point I had it half apart and found I needed something I didnt have. AlbinoFerret 04:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Luckily I live about a half mile from an O'Reily auto parts store and I have a good bicycle. I made that trip 3-4 times today ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:44, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• I have now responded to AlbinoFerret's request for difs in the thread he created above, here. The pattern is obvious, as I have said all along. I am noting this here only because AlbinoFerret has raised it here, not asking for and against any kind of action. Jytdog (talk) 16:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

This was a section to help me choose if it was really worth going forward with your obvious ABF. Not to ask for any kind of sanctions. At this time I dont think its worth it. But if the problem persists, that will change. I recommend again to strike those posts, continually deciding not to strike them when requested will probably bite you in the rear end in the future if you continue to make ABF posts. AlbinoFerret 16:51, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

@AF, even before Jytdog made the accusations and posted the analysis of the diffs I had wondered a bit what was motivating your contributions to the AN/I sections about DrChrissy, Atsme, altmed, etc. I remember thinking at one point that you shouldn't have presented yourself as an "uninvolved" editor since you had been in content disputes with some of the participants back in your e-cigarette days. To be fair, the same analysis probably goes both ways. We could probably analyze Jytdog's contributions and see a similar pattern of coming to the support of editors who have common enemies. It's not that uncommon on Misplaced Pages, and seems to be very common in this topic area. But actually proving anything is probably as difficult as trying to prove a WP:CABAL, and I can think of many better ways to spend one's time. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

@Adjwilley Motivation? Well alot of it is that once I watch a page, I seldom unwatch it. As to Atsme and DrChrissy, I still have their pages watched, and have since the WP:AVDUCK essay where we edited. The AN/I sections pertaining to the ducks issue I saw as a content dispute that got worse and worse. I truly believe there were no clean hands in the dispute, and I had a first hand view to it as it was going on. To punish one side of a content dispute is wrong imho. This has nothing to do with MEDRS, its a policy, it is what it is. As for Doors22, the one that I think jtydog is most upset about. I !voted for a topic ban. But I thought 6 months was better than indef. In that section it was shown that Doors22 had a real low edit count and had become fixated on a topic with little activity outside of the topic. I thought 6 months would give them time to see other areas on WP and gain a better understanding of WP. If not that rope would be their undoing. As for sections I have commented on, I read the evidence and comment, regardless of who the person is, what the topic is about, what PAG it is on, or who I have edited with, its an opinion based on facts and PAG taking in both sides.

As for involvement, ya thats something I learned over time. I have only been real active on the board as a community member for about 5.5 months. At first I thought involvement had to do with the topic/page. I learned I was wrong and went on.

What I see is just ABF, looking for a problem with a conclusion already in place and trying to cherry pick instances to fit that pre conception. Look at the so called "disruptions" they are just comments in a discussion. He's looking for motivation by reading between the lines and then stating that as fact. He is to involved with the topics and is starting to see a shadow around every corner. I think your very right when discussing if this were reversed, it could look very bad, but thats ABF, and its not something I would advise anyone doing. Its near impossible to attribute motivation in a text medium where the other person is not in front of you, and you have no context on how those words are said. AlbinoFerret 18:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Giant edit

Hi Adjwilley! Sorry to bother you with this, but I assumed you'd probably want to know. This edit looks to be a real problem. Johnunique made, in one fell swoop, a huge edit, the kind QG used to make, reinserting so many problematic issues QuackGuru has lobbied for and supported for a very long time, which nobody ever agreed with him on, such as characterizing Ernst's opinions as "conclusions" and having Quackwatch statements in large block quotes. Just shortly thereafter, QuackGuru changed references on this giant edit which made it to where it couldn't be "undone", forcing editors who oppose this to manually remove each piece. It looks like they might be working in tandem since these were all edits QuackGuru has supported but knew he couldn't do. What do you think about this? LesVegas (talk) 04:26, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

See Talk:Acupuncture#Possible restructure in sandbox and User talk:Johnuniq#Sandbox. Please raise any specific "problematic issues" on article talk. If admin consideration of an article under discretionary sanctions is wanted, WP:AE is the proper place. However, it would be better to seek admin assistance after identifying a problem on talk. Johnuniq (talk) 05:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Adjwilley, sorry I didn't realize you were already on top of this. I will remove that giant edit but it'll take some time. It's funny that you and I both came to the same conclusions about it. LesVegas (talk) 12:24, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I've done about all I intend to do on this. Johnuniq is right that you shouldn't be running to me with problems like this. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:11, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have bothered you about it. I assumed you would want to know QG was GAMEing even ref maintenance tags now, but now I know you're much more all-seeing than I previously thought. I'll just revert it piecemeal, once I have time, and report future incidents to AE. Thanks! LesVegas (talk) 17:55, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

If you do intend to revert I recommend only reverting the parts that are problematic or went against consensus. Reverting for the sake of reverting isn't worth it, and a lot of people seem to think the edit was useful overall. ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban?

The project would not have been improved had you topic banned him, in fact, looking at that page, the net results have probably been away from our goals. The needlers and true believers have had a field day since the current sanction. Oh, I know, but I'll leave you to guess. All the best. -Roxy the dog™ (Resonate) 14:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Are you talking about QuackGuru? Since the edit restriction the major changes to the article have been the expansion of the History section by CorporateM, and as far as I know he's not a "needler". I don't think many of the changes by LesVegas have been lasting, though I think he'd also object to being called a needler. Am I missing something? ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:07, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, QG, and I know Les isn't actually a needler. I doubt you miss much btw. -Roxy the dog™ (Resonate) 15:39, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

QG

Adjwilley, hope all is well and defending Misplaced Pages isn't becoming too difficult of a task. Per your WP:STATUSQUO comment, I just wanted to let you know that I objected strongly to those many undiscussed changes without consensus but I didn't have time at that particular moment to deal the drama QuackGuru would inevitably muster up. I mentioned that I objected and would make the edits when I had time here on your talk page, and didn't have time until the other day. I would've just pressed the "undo" button, but of course QG's quick ref maintenance updates prevented that. And I knew QG wouldn't take me reverting his proxy edits lying down, that therefore making the changes would be a time consuming process, and that's exactly what happened. When I reverted his mass edit, he posted this fabrication on a noticeboard and an editor came over and unwittingly wronged the right. There was no consensus for those edits, rather the opposite, but facts like that have never stopped QG from lying about consensus in the past. QuackGuru is maximizing the few powers he has been given and I know that can't make you happy. I can go through and make the changes one by one but that's going to take a lot of time, obviously, time that I don't have with my real-life work back in season. And the irony of so many of those edits is that they were made with hours of talk page discussions involving a multitude of editors with QuackGuru often the only editor objecting. And now, POOF! all that work and time editors have taken to improve the page is gone and QuackGuru again reigns king of his article. I also wanted to mention that whether you realize it or not, I agree with the view you expressed recently about how the article ought to be balanced. Several neutral editors have at times pointed out that the article is lacking in neutrality and and is a mediocre POV piece. While in the past I have sometimes taken a more extreme view of how the article should appear, it has often only been out of frustration for POV pushing and the lack of regard of what makes a decently readable article, fighting extremism with more extremism, and that frustration is only compounded by QG's recent antics. Nonetheless, you can be assured that I will try my best to only add light, not fire, to the situation and want to simply bring the article back to something that's in the middle of the two extremes you talked about before. And I know you're monitoring and trust that you will do your best to keep things from getting out of hand. LesVegas (talk) 18:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I did notice that User:CFCF was a colleague of User:QuackGuru over at the E-cigarette articles (currently at Arbcom) and that they had not edited the acupuncture article prior to the revert war on 4 October. I had not noticed the canvassing at the Fringe noticeboard. I feel somewhat like a school teacher, who after having told the schoolyard bully that he could only play on the playground if he stops throwing snowballs, returns to find him making snowballs and asking other kids to throw them. I'll review this more in detail when I have time. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I still think that WP:AE is the proper place to raise concerns about possible discretionary sanction violations because other admins could then participate, and archived results could be more easily found in the future. That was mentioned at #Giant edit above where I also noted (19 September 2015) that no "problematic issues" have been identified. That is still true—there are only generic claims at Talk:Acupuncture#Mediocre unrelated to changes in the last month. LesVegas appears to believe that content discussion can be avoided by appealing here. Before that continues, please consider these responses by LesVegas:

• At "Giant edit" above: "I will remove that giant edit but it'll take some time". That statement of intent is clearly behind the recent undiscussed flurry of edits.
• At LesVegas talk (August) I listed eleven occasions on which the user has POV tagged the article, and the response was "I'm proud to tag it". That was after your 24 May 2015 change in status quo "final warning" on the same page, and while subject to a "Disruptive editing--Discretionary Sanctions block".

The change in status quo includes "Edit warring (even making 1 revert in the context of a larger edit war) and battleground behavior is very likely to result in either WP:0RR restrictions, or a complete topic ban." Even the OP shows battleground behavior:

"undiscussed changes without consensus"

"drama QuackGuru would inevitably muster up"

"wronged the right"

"lying about consensus"

Johnuniq (talk) 09:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Some background of Les going directly to Admins, instead of using procedure - here, here and most tellingly here. Those three are links to talk page discussions this year, now archived. I have no idea how many other threads like those he has started. I am aware ADJ, that you commented on some of those threads, but this is typical behaviour. It is also interesting to note other WP:SPAs doing exactly the same thing on that talk page. -Roxy the dog™ (Resonate) 12:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Adj, just figured you'd want to know. And guys, put away the pitchforks. Adjwilley wrote me on my talk page and I'm responding on his. LesVegas (talk) 13:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I see that. I never understood why people respond to stuff in that way, seems odd to go somewhere else to reply? Will you be taking ADJs suggestion to heart? -Roxy the dog™ (Resonate) 13:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

@Roxy the dog: I am well aware of Les's pattern, and I didn't need to follow the links to guess they were links to User:John's talk page. I'm fairly certain that it bugs me more than it bugs you, and I've tried to communicate that a few times without saying it straight out. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Adjwilley, I had only mentioned this stuff to you in the past because you seemed interested in behavior problems amongst editors on the article. Plus I actually thought that was protocol, but in the future I will do something different. I'm very sorry if I was ever a bother to you or anyone else and feel rather embarrassed that I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing all along. But thank you for listening to me and for your continued concern, despite me going about things the wrong way. LesVegas (talk) 22:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

@LesVegas: You and I need to have a talk. Would you like to do that on your talk page, or here? I take it you've fixed your archiving so my comments won't immediately disappear again? ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah we can do it on my talk. It looks like it's fixed now for sure. LesVegas (talk) 13:11, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Worth noting...

LesVegas is on my list of POV-pushers to watch, and I think may well be abusing process to gain an advantage in a content dispute. That said QuackGuru has been drinking in the last chance saloon for a very long time and I'm astounded he has lasted as long as he has. Guy (Help!) 16:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Patience, he's on my list too and I'm not finished yet. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I notice you mentioned, on QuackGuru's talk page, his habit of leaving weird talk page warnings for anyone who disagrees with him. I made a couple of edits to the electronic cigarette page last night and he immediately did the same thing to me.--AttackOfTheSnailDemons (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't plan on getting involved in the electronic cigarette brouhaha. ~Awilley (talk) 15:10, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I get where you're coming from. Sadly ArbCom don't seem to want to touch it either...--AttackOfTheSnailDemons (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps it is the smell of socks that is making them keep their distance. What do you think? ~Awilley (talk) 20:57, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I guess I won't get an answer ~Awilley (talk) 16:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Precious again

beatitudes
Thank you, willing gnome with a scientific background and the absolute pitch for controversy, for improving Beatitudes and nourishing Dies irae in your sandbox, for a smile-provoking user page, for "most of the edits are related to these controversial issues" and "asking people questions until he can understand their point of view", - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

A year ago, you were the 1003rd recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:41, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda, for always being so thoughtful. ~Awilley (talk) 15:07, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Name change

I do hope the change wasn't prompted by people calling you "ADJ", ADJ? -Roxy the dog™ (Resonate) 07:36, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, no, the bit about wanting to be a noun instead of an adjective was just humor. The real reason was so that if somebody decided to take out wikipedia admins in alphabetical order I'd be further down the list. :-) ~Awilley (talk) 20:37, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Should have gone straight to being a Willey then  ;-)DrChrissy 16:22, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Isn't that what I did? (A willey). Actually, I kept the A in front so people would still recognize me, while removing some of the unpronounceable consonants. (How do you say djw?) ~Awilley (talk) 17:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) I quite often say "djw"...usually after several tankards of our local "Tanglefoot" Scrumpy! The worst part of this is that my drinking buddies understand exactly what I am saying!DrChrissy

Speaking from experience, I know that name changes can kind of tie up the servers once in a while. Did you encounter any problems with that? John Carter (talk) 18:08, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I had heard that username changes kill server bunnies, but I can't remember where or find a source for that. My understanding was that it's accounts with tons of edits that bog down the servers. I'm not at 10,000 edits yet, so I doubt there was much more than a minor bump for me. I didn't notice any problems. ~Awilley (talk) 18:26, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

My topic ban - Pain in humans

Hi. I have been editing Pain in fish and a discussion has opened about the definition of this article. It is almost impossible for me to enter meaningful discussions about this without mentioning pain in humans. I do not want to discuss humans in any detail whatsoever, only to use it in the opening sentence defining the article. However, this is currently being discussed on the Talk Page and I wanted to know if this will be in breach of my topic ban?DrChrissy 14:03, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Roxy the dog™ (Resonate) 14:48, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your input but it is not needed here. I am sure Awilley can speak for himself.DrChrissy 15:30, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I suspect the edit that precipitated DrChrissy's query was this one. Because pain has a subjective component, many issues to do with animal pain are discussed in terms of their behavioural and neural accompaniments and their analogy with humans who can be said to be experiencing pain. The focus is on pain in non-human animals, such as fish and cockroaches. Humans are mentioned only by way of analogy. There is no sense such edits or discussions could be said to amount to editing human medical issues. --Epipelagic (talk) 21:20, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

@DrChrissy: Thanks for asking first. What is it you wish to say? If you want to say something specifically about humans it's probably best not to. If it's fish/animals you wish to talk about, it seems like you should be able to participate in the talk page discussion about pain in fish without replying to stuff about humans. It's awkward, time consuming, and annoying, I agree, but the best way to get the ban removed is to respect it. When people can clearly see that you're not contributing to "drama" anymore you'll be able to get the ban reversed. ~Awilley (talk) 22:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)