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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Aisha article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2015

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You can NOT have a picture of either Muhammed nor his wives, this is an offense to me as a Muslim. Please remove any pictures as they're obviously not made by Muslims and have no meaning in itself for us. Thank you! 78.230.70.1 (talk) 03:17, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

 Not done The inclusion of pictures of Muhammed (and his wives) have been discussed at great length.
Please read Talk:Muhammad/FAQ which also explains how you can configure your browser so that you do not see such images. - Arjayay (talk) 09:33, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Undue weight

Hey the article lacks a prominent viewpoint and is not lending the proper weight to Shia viewpoint. Besides the body of the article, the lead must include Shia viewpoint about Aisha. Mhhossein (talk) 04:26, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2015

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I would like to add the following sections to the "Age at marriage" section.

One of the reasonable way to find Aisha's age at marriage is comparing her age with her sister, Asma another daughter of Abu Bakr. According to literature and references, Asma was 10 years older than Aisha ans she was 27 years old in the first year of migration to Madina. Therefore, Aisha should be at least 17 years old when she got marry to prophet Mohammad.

References: Almo'jam Alkabir by Altabarani, chapter 24, page 77 The history of Madina and ِDamascus, Ibn Asaker Aldameshghi Alshafei, chapter 69, page 9 Asad Alghabah fi Marefat Alsahabah, Aljazary, chapter 7, page 11 Tahzib o Alasma va Alloghat, Alnavooi, chapter 2, page 598 Majma' alzavayed and Manba'o al favayed, Alheifami, chapter 9, page 260 Taghrib Altahzib, Alasghalani Alshafei, chapter 1, page 743 Alasalato fi Tamiz e Sahabah, chapter 7, page 487 Alestiab fi Marefate l Ashab, chapter 4, page 1783 Alwafi belWafiat, chapter 9, page 36 Sonan albeihaghi alkobra, chapter 4, page 204 Albedayat o va alnahayah, chapter 8, page 345 Merghaho almafatih, chapter 1, page 331 Sobol Islam, Sharh Bologh o Alam men Adellato Islam, chapter 1, page 39

Msayati (talk) 23:39, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Moved from article space for discussion

The above paragraph was added to the article on 17 November 2015, by Msayati. It needs to be discussed.

Msayati - please could you tell us on this talk page what exactly each of the sources you are citing says that is relevant to the question of her age. Please give quotations for each source translated into English.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:20, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Aisha's age at marriage by comparing her age with her sister Asmā'_bint_Abi_Bakr

According to Sahih al-Bukhari,

Narrated 'Aisha: .. He married me after three years of her (Khadija_bint_Khuwaylid) death...

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:58:165

So Muhammad married her after the first year of migration to Medina (622 CE).

Asmā'_bint_Abi_Bakr is Aisha's older sister. Lots of scholars such as Al-Tabarani who was one of the most important Hadith scholars of his age, Ibn_'Asakir and Ali_ibn_al-Athir and Al-Haithami states

... Asma was born 27 years before migration to Medina

Therefore, at the year of migration to Medina, Asma was 27 years old. Then, She should be 28 years old when her sister Aisha married Muhammad. It is well-known that Asma was 10 years older than Aisha. I just cite a couple of references here. Ibn Kathir, Asqalani mentioned it in two of his book titled al-Isaba fi tamyiz al-Sahaba, which is the most comprehensive dictionary of the Companions and also Tahdhib al-Tahdhib. Al-Dhahabi also stated in Siyar a`lam al-nubala'

... Asma was 10 years older than her sister, Aisha.

Ali_al-Qari mentioned in Mirqat al Mafatih Sharh Mishkat al-masabih which is explanation of Mishkat_al-Masabih .

Asma was 17th person who became Muslim and she was 10 years older than her sister, Aisha...

Saying all of references, it is an easy conclusion that Aisha was at least 18 years old when she got married.

Aisha's age at marriage based on the time she became Muslim

Most of Sunni scholars believe that Aisha was one of the first person who became Muslim. Al-Nawawi mentioned in his book Tahdhib al-Asma wal-Lughat

Aisha was a kid and became Muslim after 18 persons .

Motahar ibn Taher Muqaddasi, who is Islamic historian scholar, mentioned in his book,

The people who took precedence over others to become Muslim ..... and ladies were Asma daughter of Omeis ...Asma daughter of Abu Bakr and Aisha who was a kid and they all became Muslim during three beginning years of Islam when Muhammad was inviting people to Islam hidden..

Ibn_Hisham also listed Aisha among the first people who became Muslim in the first year after revelation while he was a kid. .

Therefor, Aisha was a kid in the first year of revelation (610 CE) and her marriage was at 623 CE. We do not know how old was Aisha at that time but it is not possible that she was less than 13 years old when she got married. If we assume Aisha was 5 years old (according to ten years different with her sister, Asma) when she became Muslim, she should be about 18 years old at the marriage.

Msayati (talk) 07:19, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

1. ^ Altabarani, Solaman (1983). Almo'jam Alkabir. Moosel: Maktab Alzahra. p. 77.
2. Ibn Asaker Aldameshghi Alshafei, Abilghasem (1995). The history of Madina and ِDamascus. Beirut: Darolfekr. pp. chapter 69, page 9.
3. Aljazari, Azaddin (1996). Asad Alghaya fi Marefat Alsahaba. Beirut: Dar Ehya. pp. Chapter 7, page 11.
4. Dameshghi, Ibn Kasir. Albedayat wa Alnahaya. pp. chapter 8, page 345.
5. Asqalani, Ibn_Hajar. al-Isaba fi tamyiz al-Sahaba. p. 1810.
6. Ibn Hajar Asqalani, Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif
7. Al-Dhahabi, Muhammad ibn Ahmad. Siyar a`lam al-nubala'. pp. Vol 2, 289.
8. Al_Qari, Ali. Merghah Almafatih : Sharh Meshkat Almasabih. p. 331.
9. Al_Nawawi. Tahdhib al-Asma wal-Lughat. pp. Vol 2, 615.
10. Muqaddasi. Al-Bada' wa al-tarikh. pp. Vol 4, 146.
11. Ibn Hisham. As-Sirah an-Nabawiyyah. pp. Vol 2, 92.

Thank you @Msayati:. That is most illuminating. It will be interesting to know what other editors think of this.

Have you read the Misplaced Pages policy: WP:SYNTH? Please could you explain how what you are doing compares with the examples in that policy?-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:22, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much @Toddy1: for bringing up that Misplaced Pages policy. Based on the Aisha article itself, the previous editors did arithmetic function to conclude the date of birth and date of marriage of Aisha. However, based on the quotes I mentioned above and more references, Aisha got married in 623 CE and she was a kid in 610 CE. Based on the Misplaced Pages policy, basic arithmetic do not count as original research. By saying that Asma was 10 years older than Aisha and she was 27 years old in the year 622 CE, do you think it would be violation of policy to say that Aisha was 17 years old at that time? I think the article is biased (specially by referring to Child Marriage) and has not informed readers about these major resources. Msayati (talk) 10:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

The basic arithmetic rule applies if you have ONE source that says all these things. If your assumptions are correct, you would expect to have no difficulty finding one in English that is readily available. If you cannot do this, then you should question your assumptions. -- Toddy1 (talk) 10:38, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for saying this although it has not been mentioned in WP:CALC. In the meanwhile, there are some resources that says these things together. Ali_al-Qari mentioned in Mirqat al Mafatih Sharh Mishkat al-masabih which is explanation of Mishkat_al-Masabih.

Asma was 17th person who became Muslim and she was 10 years older than her sister, Aisha. She passed away ten days after death of her son while she was 100 years old and all of her tooth were healthy. It was in the year 73 AH

Al-san'ani stated exactly the same thing in his book titled Sobol al-Islam without talking about her tooth though. So the arithmetic function would be (Age of Aisha in 622 CE =0 AH: 100 - 73 - 10 = 17) in the year 622 CE which is one year before her marriage. All of these also has been discussed in the article publish in The Fountain magazine . Msayati (talk) 21:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

1. ^ Juan Eduardo Campo, "Encyclopedia of Islam", Infobase Publishing, 2009
2. Al_Qari, Ali. Merghah Almafatih : Sharh Meshkat Almasabih. p. 331.
3. The Fountain on Life, Knowledge and Belief

Let us see what other editors say about this.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:35, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Would you agree that the following is a good summary of what you wish the article to mention?

In the twentieth century, Pakistani writer Muhammad Ali of the Ahmadiyya minority sect of Islam, challenged the Sahih al-Bukhari. He acknowledged that Aisha was young as the traditional sources claim; but argued that instead a new interpretation of the Hadith compiled by Mishkat al-Masabih, Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, could indicate that Aisha would have been nineteen years old around the time of her marriage. However, the hadith compiled by Mishkat al-Masabih is not a Ṣaḥīḥ (صَحِيْح) hadith, and its authenticity is considered doubtful by many scholars such as al-Tabrizi.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

1. ^ Ali 1997, p. 150 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAli1997 (help)
2. James Robson (1964), Mishkat al-Masabih, S. M. Ashraf, OCLC 500616691
3. Juan Campo, Encyclopedia of Islam, ISBN 978-0816077458

Not really. I read that article and it seems Muhammad Ali has different evidences. That's why I am saying the article is biased by highlighting just one approach that she was six and referring to child marriage. I think adding some quotations from other references make the article more neutral. Msayati (talk) 01:22, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Toddy1's summary is much better. It's more concise, it identifies the source, and it make it clear that the conclusion is a minority position. Edward321 (talk)

@Edward321: This is not voting where you will actively support other editor's views. Take a look at WP:RNPOV and WP:MTPPT. SpyButeo (talk) 05:20, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

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