Misplaced Pages

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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

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There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 27 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 25 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 94 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 73 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 64 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 55 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 48 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC_Science-Based_Medicine

(Initiated 33 days ago on 7 December 2024) slowed for a while Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 20 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 107 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 85 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

 Closed by editor S Marshall. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  20:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 73 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 64 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 43 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Slow motion Edit war and deleting the Citation needed request .

User Zirguezi , in answer of my demand for sources , insists on getting back sources that are neither Reliable , nor related to the matter 1 2. Talk page discussion failure and personal attacks ( on section Flag of Iraqi Kurdistan is not the flag of all Kurdish groups) . Can an admin please help ? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:54, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I too would like an opinion of this situation. User:Alborz Fallah requested a source, which I provided. In my opinion they are reliable, relevant and related to the matter. They prove exactly the point I was making. Alborz Fallah makes a claim that goes against what the sources I have provided say. I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong but just as he has a right to ask for sources so do I ask him for sources that dispute the claim. If it turns out there is enough discussion about this in literature we should probably add both sides to the article. N.B.: the personal attack is indeed disruptive and did not come from me. ~ Zirguezi 19:16, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

BTW shouldn't this request be filed at WP:DRN or any of the other boards at WP:SEEKHELP? ~ Zirguezi 19:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@Zirguezi : Edit Waring and deleting the request for citation ( more than one times) seems to be an administrative task rather than a problem that can be solved by discussion : do am i intended to prove the Wikipedian laws are right and useful to anyone that may be not familiar with them ? Reinventing wheel and fire will consume all of our time and power ! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Range block needed

See the recent history of my talk page, and Floquenbeam's. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

The page protection should work. The ranges are too disparate for blocking.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

The IP has engaged in the same vandalism on a number of other user talk pages, including mine and many others. Minor4th 02:21, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I've done a small rangeblock to cover most of the addresses used. Between that and liberal short-term protections, that should make it tiresome and un-fun . An edit filter would be a fine idea, and should be easy to implement. Acroterion (talk) 02:23, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

The edits seemed to be automated, considering they were all made in a timespan of a few seconds. In other words, this probably needs to be brought to WMF asap. <<< SOME GADGET GEEK >>> (talk) 03:05, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd suspect copy-and-paste with multiple tabs/windows open rather than actual automation. ansh666 03:39, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

And another

Rangeblockers, please have a look at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Bias_from_rape_supporters, for the 166 IP who keeps harassing Ricky81682. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 05:43, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Ban time?

(The time may not be ripe, but it's probably as good as it is going to get) I've been having a look through active threads as well as archives of ANI and AN concerning the 166.x.x.x addresses. As far as I have been able to determine, there are 3 banned users who have been known to use these IPs, User:Ararat arev (a persistent Egyptian POV pusher), User:David Beals (the ceiling fan vandal) and User:Kochtruth (a Koch "truther"), as well as someone who frequented, and was subsequently topic banned from, the World's oldest people articles and associated AFDs. The latter has also developed a particular vendetta against Ricky81682, as Drmies notes, mainly because of his activity in raising AFD's on WOP articles. Given the persistent disruption from this IP range, I formally propose that the user(s) behind these IP edits be indefinitely site banned from Misplaced Pages. I feel that this is appropriate as 3 of the users known to use this range are site banned already and the IP only editor only posts to harass Ricky81682 or troll other threads. There is already a precedent for community banning an IP editor, see the "Best known for" IP editor. Blackmane (talk) 03:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Unnecessary. Ban discussions are only prudent for situations where a user's ban may be contentious. For known trolls whose behavior has made it clear that they aren't here to contribute, and are only trolling use for the lulz, they effectively ban themselves, and we don't need "permission" to continue blocking them and cleaning up their messes. The language at WP:BAN has remained roughly unchanged for a decade: " In the event an indefinitely blocked editor has continued to be disruptive and no administrator is willing to unblock, they are considered de facto banned." --Jayron32 13:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

This is certainly true for edits that are obviously from Ararat arev, David Beals or Kochtruth. However, the 4th editor only edits via IP's that happens to be on the same range. As far as I know, there are no ties between this IP editor to any of the other three. Furthermore, the IP editor is only subject to a topic ban from World's oldest people articles. They took that topic ban badly and went over the deep end into trolling and harassment. As it stands now, the IP editor is no de facto banned. This is the point that is being addressed. Blackmane (talk) 02:49, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

My observation has been that this winds up in a Catch 22. If somebody proposes a de jure ban, we get the "they're already de facto banned, don't waste our time" sort of arguments. But if it's assumed that they're de facto banned, and act accordingly, there are inevitably protests where "show us where we/they are banned" is raised. It may be a bit of bureaucracy but it crosses the t's and dots the i's to where even Ultra Magnus is satisfied. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support since we don't have an indefinitely blocked account to fall back on for G5 and reverting edits a siteban would make it easier to block (rather for block evasion while hoping that there is a currently blocked IP) and revert. That is, ban evasion rather than block evasion (while hoping that there actually is a currently blocked IP). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd been putting a more formal proposal together, but it's rather lengthy so I'll just link it here. There is a fairly long list of IP's that I've dug out of the archives plus some comments. Blackmane (talk) 13:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support - I take Jayron32's point, but the fact remains that there are editors here who will object to automatic deletion of the 166 troll's "contributions" because they are only de facto banned and not actually banned. It pretty much nappens regularly, leading to a discussion about how de facto banning really is banning, etc. That would be unnecessary if the community would simply formalize a ban. BMK (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Normally I would agree with Jayron32 and I'm sorry about the bureaucracy, but there are too many hatted sections at ANI for the 166 troll. It would be far better if the sections were removed with edit summary "WP:DENY". Leaving the trophy on ANI, or arguing with others about whether it is reasonable to remove a section, just encourages more and is irritating for those of us looking over the page. Johnuniq (talk) 00:48, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Not even a single ping here? Seriously? I think I deserve that. I'll support it since it's basically WP:RBI with this (or these) characters. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:04, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support, for the reasons explained by BMK. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

RfA Policy RfC Closed

This RfC has been closed and the following changes will go into effect, effective immediately:

1. RfAs will now be advertised on watch list notices.
   • There will be a waiting period of 12-24 hours. Admin discretion may be exercised, before the 24 hour waiting period.
   • The usernames or the details of the RfA are not to be revealed. A short and simple one liner such as, "There are RfAs open for discussion."
2. RfAs will now be advertised on Template:CENT.
   • Some desire to use {{:User:Cyberpower678/RfX Report}} on the template has been expressed, though it is not a requirement. Cyberpower678 is willing to make changes to the template as needed, if desired.
   • The advertisement on CENT does not carry the same restrictions that watch list notices have.
3. There is now a limit on the number of questions a specific user can ask a candidate.
   • The limit is 2 questions.
   • Appropriate relevant follow-up questions are allowed.
   • Obvious gaming should be dealt with accordingly.
4. The discretionary range is now 65-75%.

If there is a problem with my close, please let me know.—_{Merry Christmas:Unknown} 08:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

FYI, RFC is reopened for about another 2 weeks. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Promotional Edits by new SPA

Could an Admin please have a look at the contributions of this user which appears to be a single purpose account engaged in undue promotion of a self-published work. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 15:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The core of this one seems to be Quantum money (Monetary system), which might qualify for speedy since it's not even a monetary system, just a proposal with no obvious notability. The editor has gone about adding this as a see also to several barely related articles. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I've tagged the article for lack of references and for notability. Feel free to CSD away, if someone concurs that there's no notability here. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The author added references. I removed the reference tag but will be AFD'ing the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:19, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Frustrating lack of policy support

I reported a case at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Motoe123_reported_by_User:Betty_Logan_.28Result:_.29 which involved an inexperienced editor repeatedly replacing the data at Century_break#Players_with_100_century_breaks with data from a fan blog, specifically the one at .

As I understand it, per WP:SPS personal blogs/fansites are not considered reliable sources. Despite offering an explanation in the edit summaries, on the article talk page and an editing note also included in the main article the editor in question has repeatedly restored this fan sourced content. Furthermore, the site being used for this data sources the data from another Fansite which has been categorically ruled not reliable at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_157#Snooker.info. I requested admin support at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Motoe123_reported_by_User:Betty_Logan_.28Result:_.29, but the report has been simply ignored. Even the reports filed after mine have been dealt with.

Now, this is not a complicated case. It is my understanding that fansites are not acceptable for sourcing anything from Misplaced Pages, so am I being unreasonable to expert some admin support in enforcing this policy? I am finding the lack of response a frustrating experience. I could just restore the data yet again but that would put me on a collision course with 3RR, which seems to be the only policy that is effectively enforced these days. If the thinking on Misplaced Pages now is that RS is a policy that is not really aimed at articles containing sport statistics then I would appreciate it if somebody just closed my case on those grounds so I know here I stand. If that is the case however, I don't really see what distinguishes Misplaced Pages from other personal fansites that informally maintain stats.

It would be helpful if somebody could advise on what course of action I should follow in such situations. Betty Logan (talk) 16:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Sure, slow down, let the WP:WRONGVERSION be visible for the time being, and ask for other people to weigh in discussion. WP:RSN is as good a place as any, as is the article talk page. After others have been alerted to the issue, and have established consensus that the source is a bad one, you have the weight of consensus on your side. --Jayron32 16:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this was more or less what I was going to say as well. It doesn't seem to be that high-profile of a page for the moment, and there seems to be a backlog of unanswered EW claims to be answered as well. As a side note though, I don't think things generally go over very well when you report someone for edit warring and you were the one who reverted them every single time, and neither party broke 3RR. That may not be helping your response time either... Sergecross73 msg me 16:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Sourcing is a recurring problem on the snooker articles that has been raised several times before, even by admins such as by SilkTork (see Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_96#Snooker_sites_-_WWW_Snooker_.2F_snooker.org_and_Chris_Turner.E2.80.99s_Snooker_Archive). The problem that the snooker editors face is that it simply doesn't have the manpower to respond to policy violations: due to the low levels of participation then it is unlikely anybody else will "weigh in" on this issue for weeks, if not months, until someone else eventually comes along and cares enough to correct it and then runs into exactly the same problem that I have done. Despite being a red-link I am a fairly experienced editor and mainly edit snooker and film articles, and the film articles I participate on generally move in a positive direction because there is a big enough support network in the Film project to deal with any problems. It is a rewarding experience overall, and the main reason I give up my free time to contribute to Misplaced Pages. This is not the case on snooker articles, where I feel the articles generally stagnate or progressively get worse over time and I am finding it a dispiriting experience contributing to this set of articles. Having experience of a highly mobilised project with highly trafficked articles, and a low-participation one with low hits it is pretty obvious to me that solutions which work very well for one type of article don't work great for the other. I doubt the snooker project is the only low-participation project to face these issues. Maybe if each project was allocated a "resident" admin that could help alleviate the "wild west" mentality that has manifested in some areas of Misplaced Pages? I think ultimately a different approach is going to have to be adopted down the line to combat this. Anyway, thanks for your time. Betty Logan (talk) 18:33, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Eyes on Talk:Glyphosate

With Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms just closed, Glyphosate is one of the pages where discretionary sanctions and 1RR have been imposed. It's been getting rather heated there, and it would be good to have eyes on it from some uninvolved administrators. One additional aspect is that there are discussions on the talk page, including some RfCs, where there has been extensive commenting by some editors who have now been topic banned, so perhaps some curation of that is needed. No emergencies, no need for blocks, but just some need for some uninvolved folks to keep order. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I wonder which topic will be left without discretionary sanctions / 1RR at this pace. LjL (talk) 21:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Wanna start an office pool? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Nah let's calculate the Poisson de Trypto distribution of probability a topic will be DS'd. LjL (talk) 21:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@EEng: I think you've made me into a meme! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The possibilities are endless. Next you can be a poison poisson. EEng (talk) 21:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

We will know the apocalypse is upon us when Misplaced Pages goes under DS. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Poisson de Trypto distribution - that is fabulous! Guy (Help!) 08:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Becoming more serious

Seriously now, I would appreciate it if an uninvolved administrator would take a look at Talk:Glyphosate#Editors flagged as topic banned: Why?. Please evaluate this edit that I made: . If you think that this edit was a mistake, then please revert it (no need to ask me first). --Tryptofish (talk) 02:59, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

This POINTy edit is worth considering too, IMO. EdChem (talk) 12:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

With thanks to EdChem, that behavior by Semitransgenic (whom I am about to formally notify) is continuing with this: , and in the context of DS, this is starting to rise to being something where administrator intervention may be needed. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

posthumous execution?!--TMCk (talk) 18:41, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

?? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:38, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I decided to self-revert the edit that I asked about above, but I would still advise that uninvolved administrators should be looking in and evaluating whether editor conduct there is consistent with DS. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:08, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

A question on RevDel

Over at Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions, an IP user added a question and then signed it with their (apparent) real name; their next immediate edit was to remove the name. I would consider this accidental exposure of one's identity, and so I have for the moment revdel'd the addition to be cautious. (These are presently the two diffs before my diff here .) Checking the WP:REVDEL page, this suggests that I should report this to the Oversight committee to have the edits completely washed out, but at the same time the language of REVDEL make it sound like this should be done where the outing is malicious, etc. while here I'm not sure if this is meant to be the case. Should I still submit this to Oversight to review? --MASEM (t) 19:17, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, just submit it to the OS mailing list, and they can make the call if it's a borderline case. That's why they get the big money. If there's specific language in WP:REVDEL that implies this should only be done if it's malicious (I don't see it offhand, but it's a lot of text), we should probably change that, but that might be more productively done at WT:REVDEL. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:39, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Sent, and I'll see if a discussion at WT:REVDEL might be needed. --MASEM (t) 20:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Criteria 4 already covers this. If it is oversightable, it acceptable to revision delete it pending oversight. The only real question is whether revision deletion will draw attention to the very thing we are trying to hide before oversight gets to it, and thus be counter productive when the goal is to protect someone's privacy. But that is purely a judgement call, and imo, its usually better to revision delete promptly. Monty₈₄₅ 15:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

An attempt to return to Misplaced Pages

It's a positive thing that Lucia asked for closure, and it's a positive thing that she has started to edit in other areas.

Hopefully, in time, that editing will support another request which can be more successful.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Assuming that people have changed, I've decided to give Misplaced Pages one more chance. So i requested for a temporary unblock (depending on how things go). But, at this time, i would only come back if either the original ban of Japanese media was removed.

If you want the original Ghost in the Shell topic ban to remain, that is fine by me. I originally just casually requested it to be removed. In the time that i requested my own indefinite ban, and the time that I've returned, not much has changed. The only thing that changed is the articles that i was interested (and only me) are rotting away with deadlinks.

All i really want to do is just edit the articles i'm interested in, the ones i know i can fix and improve. Everything i do is to improve articles for the better, not hinder them and i don't want to argue with anyone. I especially don't want to distract anyone from working on other articles. I like to believe i changed. I have given olive branches out to those i can remember, the rest, will have to remind me. I do recognize that i was blunt, and didn't held my tongue. Heat of the moment. I will be very honest, i'm still not happy to how i was treated before. But i'm fully willing to forgive those because it wasn't completely their fault. I accept responsibility for that much. Lucia Black (talk) 16:19, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Funny, I was just browsing your profile the other day. I feel that at this point Lucia should be allowed to edit again. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:28, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea what the underlying situation is, however I will say that your return should be based on a desire to return and not an expectation that the community has significantly changed. You will be less likely to be disappointed that way. HighInBC 16:31, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

@@HighInBC: Its a long story, i don't want to bring up primarily because it brings up old wounds. I just want to say my expectation is the change for the better, not worst. But even if people haven't changed, i still would like to edit in Misplaced Pages. I just don't want the drama, mudslinging, or defaming.

@@Knowledgekid87: It is nice to know that people still come by profile every now and then. Back then i felt like none of my edits matter, i know they do now. Lucia Black (talk) 16:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

HighInBC The last discussion on the topic ban of Lucia's was here, I believe, FYI. Sergecross73 msg me 16:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support- I support shrinking the Japanese media ban down so that it only covers Ghost in the Shell. It should never have expanded beyond that in the first place. Approve also of Lucia Black's more mature attitude on returning. Reyk _YO! 16:40, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support- Per Reyk, the only issue was Ghost in the Shell other than that, the editors involved in that dispute have either moved on or were blocked. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:42, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Reyk's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Welcome back, I don't know enough about the tban to comment so I will abstain. HighInBC 16:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment It appears to me that you asked for this topic ban to be overturned in March, there was no consensus to do so, and you asked to be indef blocked right after that. Unlike site bans, usually topic bans require more than just time to elapse before they're overturned; they usually require evidence of unproblematic editing in other topics first. You haven't edited an article since the last topic ban appeal, so what about your case would make our normal approach unreasonable? Also, to be clear, you're not asking for the other editing restrictions (interaction ban, ban on filing reports on other editors at noticeboards, and "probation" on all pages in all namespaces) to be lifted, right? Just changing the topic ban on Japanese entertainment pages to one only about Ghost in the Shell? --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Useful links:

Most recent AN topic ban review: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive269#Lucia Black Topic Ban Review

Current editing restrictions: Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions (then do a search for "Lucia Black" down the table)

--Floquenbeam (talk) 17:00, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Without commenting on the merits of this specific case, I do think time passing is a factor for tbans. At least when I give my opinion on such matters it is something I take into account. HighInBC 17:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I think Lucia should focus her attention to editing, the one t-ban that is effecting that is the one that should be of focus. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'd love to welcome back an editor who can make good and strong contributions and reintegrate into the community in a productive manner. But I'm afraid the attitude expressed in the opening statement here leaves me unable to have confidence that the latter, at least, is possible here yet. The opening "assuming that people have changed..." and "it wasn't completely their fault" statements show a very concerning WP:NOTTHEM-ish attitude that prevents me from being able to support at this time. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support lowering TBAN from "Japanese media" back to "Ghost in the Shell" - Second chances are often things I support, and this makes no exception. A pause of several months is sure to have been helpful, and Lucia has shown in the past that she is perfectly able to be a productive contributor. The TBAN from Japanese media was, both in intention and in effect, practically equivalent to a community ban; it's pointless to try to "force" someone to edit things they have no interest in working on. The consensus for upping from GitS to Japanese media was controversial and divided at at best. Let's leave the past in the past and look forward towards sunnier ways. And if things don't work out... no decision is irreversible. :) ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:23, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam:The probation, interaction ban, and even ANI bans is perfectly fine with me. i dont intend to report anyone, i dont intend to break an interaction ban, and i dont mind that there is probation. I just want to work, and i dont intend on getting on anyone's way.

@The Bushranger: I understand what you mean. But to me its semantics. What i intended to explain to Floquenbeam, assuming people have changed, is more like "I believe people have changed, because i feel like i've changed". And i've done plenty of talk about myself, and i'm trying my best not to even refer anyone else. When i mentioned that it wasn't completely their fault, what i'm trying to say is "i hold the blame anyways". And i think thats important. Lets not concentrate on the minor issues. I am not blaming anyone here for anything. I fully want a fresh start.

Its just a little hard to make my comments absolutely perfect. So i apologize for my bad word choice. Lucia Black (talk) 17:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose any change to or lifting of the topic ban. Lucia Black's problems were not just confined to Ghost in the Shell. The point of a topic ban is to show the editor can edit in a collegial manner elsewhere before requesting a lift or easing of restrictions. In this case Lucia Black was topic banned, voluntarily went away, and now wants the topic ban eased. If Lucia wants to return to editing in the Japanese media genre, let her demonstrate being able to get on well with others first. "Im only going to come back if you lift the ban" is not the right attitude. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:45, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• I have never had issue with Lucia here, while I know she has made some poor choices I still do not see why there is a blanket t-ban in place for Japanese media. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, start here. Followed by this and this, and finally this. Essentially Lucia's appeals follow the same pattern. Do nothing to show she knows why she is restricted, go away for a while, come back and ask for lifting of restrictions. Absolutely nothing has changed and I have zero confidence the same pattern of editing will not resume. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I would also point out, her bans were actually lower in scope originally. They became more wide-ranging over time as the disruption continued. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Although if you wanted more info on her combativeness outside of anime, @@Sergecross73: is probably the best person to ask as he dealt with her RE videogames (where she concentrated on Japanese ones, hence the ban from Japanese Media). Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support reduction of ban. Would now even support elimination of ban on Ghost in the Shell. I was one of the original proponents of the ban, because of her combative style and her personalization of all disputes, focusing the discussion on her and not on the encyclopedia. It appears that she now acknowledges that the disputes were largely her fault, and they were not entirely her fault. She just created too much drama. As for people having changed, I will note that she tended to have disputes with particular editors, one of whom has been site-banned, so people have changed, and it appears that she has changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment @Robert McClenon: reply, yes i formally apologize for such behavior. I apologize for not remembering you specifically, (although it might be a goood thing) I was just about to comment on Only in Death. But its important that i just let it be said. I don't want to revert to my old self where i needed to defend my name. I have a history, that much is true. But i really don't want to repeat it. I will do my best. I just need "some room" to work with. Lucia Black (talk) 18:24, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - No apology required. I am just one of several editors who thought that Lucia Black was a difficult editor, and am willing to assume good faith that she has changed and is willing to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support (Non-administrator comment) per the terms at WP:STANDARDOFFER and considering that this was a self-requested block, and support reducing the topic ban, because it sounds like it was not well supported to begin with, and everyone should get a second chance. I'm also concerned that Lucia is still holding on to a "me vs. the world" attitude - it's not the community that needs to change, it's you - but I would like to assume that she would not be here if she was not interested in working in good faith to improve the encyclopedia. Best wishes for a productive return. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:40, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support The original topic ban was vindictive and was used to punish Lucia for appealing a unilateral topic ban on Ghost in the Shell by a single administrator. Many of the editors who supported the expanded topic ban actually wanted to see her site banned instead, but could not get the support. —Farix (t | c) 22:46, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Strong oppose Lucia appears not to have changed one whit, as @Only in death: aptly demonstrates above. Lucia's last excuse was that she was incapable of editing outside the scope of her topic ban, because she had no interest in editing anything else. I'm sorry, but all that Lucia has done here is waited and stayed away. That doesn't really jibe with the spirit of WP:SO, which is geared more towards sitebanned users... the vast majority of whom have engaged in sockpuppetry of some kind. We need to see some evidence, any evidence that Lucia is capable of editing constructively. Lucia's continued refusal to edit outside the scope of her topic ban, respectfully, suggests that Lucia does not wish to participate in a collaborative environment. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 23:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose There's no evidence that Lucia has improved, just the fact that Lucia hasn't edited at all. The absence of any editing isn't evidence that the editing issues have been resolved. If someone's response to a topic ban is that they won't bother to touch the possibly 4.9 million or so other articles here and throw a tantrum to be blocked and now returns, what's to stop the next issue? Lucia's involvement here isn't so necessary that her lack of presence for six months from the non-Ghost in the Shell Japanese entertainment articles require her involvement again. If Lucia doesn't edit for another six months, do we remove the entire topic ban? And then what? We start over again with a smaller topic ban and expanding if it's problematic? If Lucia wanted to avoid the topic ban expansion, then evidence that the prior topic ban would have done the job is required, evidence such as editing in some place that perhaps Lucia isn't so crazy about but evidence that shows that Lucia has an actual interest in recognizing the problems with her editing and is working on fixing it. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Very weak Support But i'm fully willing to forgive those because it wasn't completely their fault This makes me a bit apprehensive as it sounds like Lucia still feels that she was not at fault. Not to mention the fact that all those months of not editing does not really give one any insight into her editing patterns elsewhere. It also means there's no one to vouch for her, which would really strengthen my support. That being said, I feel some good faith should be extended. If I remember correctly, I was among 2 other editors to propose a tban from Japanese culture, which in hindsight was probably a bit much. So with that in mind, I think a relaxation would be fair. Blackmane (talk) 05:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Reply@Mendaliv: and @Ricky81682: when i requested a indefinite ban on my own accord, it was for me to move on from Misplaced Pages. I didn't want to be part of it anymore. There's was lot of bad-faith. There is still some bad-faith now. I'm not here because i was waiting around until it was the right time. I intended to leave "forever" the site ban was there to help me move on. But in all that time, nothing really changed in terms of interests. I just want to say, that i think we all "know" i'm a good editor, and i think we all "know" i'm a good contributor. Editing elsewhere isn't going to prove i'm a good editor, its just a system that we all want to rely on. But i know now that my Ban was more of how i acted "here" then it was out there. My editing has always been rooted to Japanese related media. I've attempted to branch out to other interests long before. But we have to be honest, just because there's 4.9 million articles, doesn't mean that all of them appeal to me. i don't believe that 5% of those articles are done by just one user. I just need "some" room. And i fully believe that if the TBAN was reduced to Ghost in the Shell, you will see how i've changed. I don't want to get defensive here. I still trying to say that i take responsibility for it. I know why i got banned. And even with the way i'm portrayed, the old me would have been furious. Back then i never saw the light at the end of the tunnel, no matter what i did. I would always be seen bad. And i come to realize that even if people still see me that way. I don't want to get in their way, or be confrontational. I just need some room to work with. So if not that, then could we at least compromise something that gives me room? Japanese media is the sole reason why i joined Misplaced Pages in the first place. Lucia Black (talk) 06:49, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

What bad faith? You've been saying there's been bad faith since the original block. It's not bad faith for people who don't know you to not care about why you don't think you're disruptive. You have been disruptive or else you wouldn't have been topic banned. I have no idea why we should compromise when you've shown zero interest in compromising, let alone any evidence of good faith here. If you don't want to edit here unless you're allowed to edit on a topic that causes disruption to every one, then I don't see why it should be everyone's obligation to make your life easier. Go to Wikia and edit on Ghost in the Shell if that's the only thing you'll work on. Else, I honestly don't care. You aren't so special that we need to allow for another round of possible disruption and repeated topic ban disputes again. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Ricky raises a valid point here. Compromise means that we come together and reach a mutually agreeable outcome. It does not mean that Lucia states terms and the community lets her do whatever. In fact, the offer that has repeatedly been given to Lucia—that she do something like successfully edit outside the scope of her topic ban for a period, after which her topic ban may be reconsidered—is the compromise. The non-compromise position is that the topic ban stands. If there's some compelling reason to compromise on the compromise, then perhaps that could be discussed... but mere disinterest or apathy on Lucia's part is unconvincing, and frankly gives a bad impression. It does not lead me to believe Lucia can participate in a cordial, let alone a collegial, way to write encyclopedia articles. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 07:41, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment as an absolutely uninvolved observer. I am generally opposed to community bans and almost never comment on these topics. I never consciously edited any anime-related articles (or, generally, any Japan-related articles outside of a couple of very narrow topics). Here, my only association with the bit sequence "Lucia Black" is regular appearance of a new topic on AN/ANI with giant walls of text. Here, I see the starting post saying "I decided to give Misplaced Pages another chance" and subsequent walls of text commenting any dissenting vote. I do not particularly care what is happening in anime topics; it there is amth disruptive there take it to ArbCom and have disruptive editors site-banned. However, I still have AN and occasionally ANI on my watchlist, and I absolutely do not want any extra walls of text which I will have to deal with, or at least to check that I can safely skip them. We can survive without another chance. Therefore I strongly oppose any unconditional lifting of the topic-ban. If it is lifted, and there seems to be a relatively strong support of this (judging on the bold headers, I have no time to read all of this topic), there should be a condition attached of the type "easy in, easy out". Like, for example, two more topics like this here, and any uninvolved admin can block Lucia Black say for a year. No "defence of herself", no lengthy replies, nothing. I am fine with different possible conditions, but I am absolutely not fine with a sudden doubling of the amount of replies on my watchlist. We have enough drama all over the place.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Reply I apologize for my "lengthy" replies. Its hard to shorten it without trying to hit the point, because when i do shorten it, it ends up being misread. Its really difficult to be "short" when no matter what you say, it will be misinterpretted. But i do want to say that this isn't complete redemption. All the other previous bans still apply. I don't want to cause anyone any trouble or argue with anyone. I want others to edit their articles and if our paths cross, i could help them with theirs. I just want to say, in the past, i was subject to wiki-stalking by an unknown IP back who made false accounts back when things were heated. This isn't exactly an easy in-easy out. There is still probation, there is still interaction bans, and most importantly, i'm still banned from reporting other members. And i am still dealing with how i'm perceived. But i am confident i can change that, if i have room to edit. Again, i'm perfectly willing to compromise or discuss the best approach. Lucia Black (talk) 08:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Only in Death, Medaliv, and Ricky. There's so many tangent areas Lucia could have chosen to edit in that are similar, but ultimately unrelated, to the Japanese media she focused on. Any non-Japanese video game (But maybe specific to genres often seen from Japanese developers, such as RPGs), American based manga/anime styled media, Japanese history (I do not believe this would be covered under the Media ban), as just quick examples. I won't claim she should enjoy it or have fervent interest, but she could have tried. Secondly, this AN posting itself is a violation of her topic bans in my eyes. Her original AN topic ban is worded as "Filing a report to any Administrator noticeboard", not "Filing a report about another user to AN", which may be a technical nitpick on my part.... But in the closing of her Japanese media topic ban, it was explicitly noted that Lucia needed to approach an administrator before posting to AN requesting a topic ban lift, and she did not do so. Even if I'm reading that too strictly, she had previously approached an administrator when requesting her Ghost in the Shell topic ban be lifted, so had an understanding of what was expected. -- ferret (talk) 14:07, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
  • reply I've attempted to respond, but it gets far too lengthy. I mentioned why this isn't giving me a lot of room to work with here. I do want to note however that TBANs is to show if someone has made disruption in a specific topic to merit the ban. Now, shouldn't that mean that the community involved in that topic should hold a bigger weight in the vote? Here's how i see it (and correct me if i'm wrong), but wasn't this problem because disruption mostly in WP:AN, not Japanese related media? I'm asking for a compromise. Can we work something out? Lucia Black (talk) 15:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
    • I've read your post, and feel I understand your position. I simply disagree with it. You even state that you have no issue editing video game articles without a Japanese connection, but found a way to justify not doing so. You could have, as an example, aided with the constant requests for GA/FC assessments at WP:VG, which is always in need of more help. The current thread has several topics that were not Japanese in subject and your involvement here could be a great help to the project while simultaneously demonstrating an ability to work with other project editors without disruption. Considering that a fair amount of your previous disruptions occurred within WP:VG, I would view editing in this area as a major step towards getting the TBAN lowered in scope. You ask if we can work something out or reach a compromise. That's my offer, as far as my !vote goes. Jump back into the project and help out. -- ferret (talk) 16:14, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
      • The reason why is because last time i helped out someone else with GANs and it wasn't enough. If this is a matter of working with others, i can just "make more consensus" and not make a single edit, right? Lucia Black (talk) 16:54, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
        • I can only speak for myself, and can't comment on what others want to see. For me personally, if you want to work through GANs and other project tasks, while avoiding main space edits, that's fine. I'd love to see main space edits as well, but mostly want to see you helping the project and interacting with other editors without disruption. I can't attest to that currently, because you essentially stopped editing entirely since May 2015, and before that, had not edited outside of seeking relief from your topic ban since September 2014, which was a GAN review, and that was your only editing post-TBAN. Get involved. Wet your feet again. There's plenty to do. -- ferret (talk) 17:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
          • I think we are in two different states of thinking. But i don't want to argue. I'm dead honest, that i just want to edit. i also want to note: if this is a matter of working well with other members, then i dont think you need to worry regardless. My history regarding working with others in article-space looks really good. I have not made any edit-wars with any member other than the ones already banned. The TBAN was subject of AN discussions more than it was to work with others. If we see why the TBAN was made, its more of that. That's why when opposers are bringing up the past, they bring up the ANI discussions, and rarely is it ever referenced with VG/ANIME/JAPAN related discussions. Doesn't that tell us something? Lucia Black (talk) 18:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Support reduction of topic ban to only GITS-related articles and after probationary period, lift GITS topic ban. That should give Lucia Black plenty of articles to edit that is of interest and would help the WP:ANIME, WP:JAPAN and WP:VG communities. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:01, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - This is a two-part response. First, there is some criticism to the effect that Lucia Black should have edited outside the area of Japanese animation while she was topic-banned. I disagree; she had no obligation to edit outside her area of interest. We knew that her area of interest was Japanese animation, so we did know that by banning her from it, she would not be taking part in the encyclopedia until the ban was lifted. The fact that she didn't edit in areas that don't interest her should not be held against her. The only real question is whether she has exhibited a change in attitude and should be given another chance. I was one of the harshest editors in coming down on her earlier, and I think that she has exhibited a change in attitude and deserves another chance (and I seldom think that long-term problem editors should be given another chance, but she should). Second, however, I do agree with the comments that her re-instatement should be conditioned on her actually improving her attitude. That is, if she resumes combative behavior or the creating of drama, I agree that she should be given a very long block without any long defenses of her behavior. Let's let her easy in knowing that we can send her easy out if she really hasn't learned. She didn't need to edit in other areas during the ban. Let's let her back, by assuming good faith for now, knowing that we aren't wiping the slate clean, just giving her the second chance she has requested. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Nobody is holding it against Lucia that she has been incapable of editing outside the scope of her topic ban. The fact of the matter is that the onus is on Lucia to give some shred of credible evidence that the conduct she engaged in will not return (edit: And this just happens to be the most common, and from most users' perspectives, easiest means of meeting this onus). Lucia has made vague promises in the past, but in the face of even the slightest adversity... such as the entirely understandable resistance to this request... she falls into much the same wall-of-text "you're all just assuming bad faith" response. AGF is not a suicide pact: Lucia has to give us something upon which to hang our hats. And, respectfully, while reblocks are easy, rebans surely are not, especially not in this case. And the potential for damage is massive... and unfortunately difficult to measure. Japanese media is a tremendously popular topic for younger editors to cut their teeth on. Let's not take this acid test. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 01:31, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Well this discussion has been open for 24 hours now, I feel that most who have followed Lucia's edits in the past have commented here. This being said is there an uninvolved admin that can close this or should this stay open for a few more days to generate more of an outside consensus? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• 24 hours isn't all that long for this type of thing, nor have comments slowed down especially recently, nor is 9-5 (that's 64%) all that strong of a consensus... Sergecross73 msg me 21:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Serge. Let's not stifle participation. Given the long-running ridiculousness surrounding this case, and the holiday timing of this request, I think this should be left open until the first of the year at a minimum. Edit to add: Though by all means, I'd be fine with a no consensus outcome to the request to lift the topic ban, which is where the discussion stands right now. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 00:53, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

It is fine to close such discussions after 24 hours if the outcome is clear, but in this case I think more time is needed. There are people on both sides of the issue with strong points that need further discussion. (IMHO) HighInBC 00:54, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as an uninvolved editor. Per Bushranger and Only in death, I see no reason to not follow the usual procedure i/r/t topic bans. Additionally, an editor attempting to set preconditions for having their own ban lifted is concerning. --Regards, James(/_contribs) 01:49, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support reduced area of topic ban: Robert McClenon says it well. Previous ban discussions may have had some consensus, but I don't think they were overwhelmingly in support of the bans. When behavior becomes unproductive, and discussions of sanctions are at hand, it's very easy to feel "ganged up on"; and in the most previous discussion, Lucia decided to request her own block rather than to continue with a process that could be viewed as disruptive. After time away, she has now addressed these concerns with honesty and calmness. For those reasons I think she should be given the opportunity to edit in an effort to rejoin our community. — Ched :  ?  02:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Keep in mind, it took a lot and i mean "a lot" to come back. Like i said before, i originally planned for an indefinite leave. The ban was suppose to help me move on from it all. So trust me, that this took a lot of thought. I had to put some issues aside.For example: I saw articles i worked on rot away with deadlinks, at the time, i blamed a lot of people for it (at the time). So making the article into GA is even harder now. I truly did push all of it aside to come back and just do good contributions (not minor). And i normally don't celebrate holidays (you can quote me on that) so i wouldn't dare take advantage of the holidays for more appeal. So with that said i apologize i brought this up now during the most festive time for some members. But again, I'm taking responsibility for it. Before i logged on, i did some searching seeing areas i can work on. Trust me when i say, the one place that was working so well, and suddenly banned from it, is not an easy thing. I'm working on Assassin's Creed Chronicles right now. A video game that has plenty of coverage and isn't Japanese. It doesn't necessarily have to be removing Japanese media TBan completely, but again, i'm still looking for compromise @Mendaliv: does this count as a "shred"? I would like to think it is at least that. Lucia Black (talk) 02:29, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Actions speak louder than words, Lucia. That said, I am happy to hear that you're working on an article in another topic area. I would happily support a reduction or elimination of your topic ban once I see you can handle on-wiki strife without the sort of problems we saw before. But, as BMK correctly argues below, your responses just within this thread to the opposition will not fill readers with confidence that you have changed your ways. Honestly, put in some work. If not here, then on some other project, whether Wikimedia or otherwise. We need to see that you can work with others without the same problems, not merely hear it. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 03:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Whatever happens happens. But having to constantly hear others spread certain ideas about me, isn't good for my mental health. I recognized it then, which is why i left WP in the first place. Its exausting. And you all have better things to do, so i officially give up on the idea that i'll ever work on Japanese-media related content. i'll do what i can here and there. and see where it takes me. But i cannot deal with the claims people have of me. I just can't. Lucia Black (talk) 03:48, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
      • I'm not sure what you perceive as being "spread" about you, but everything I've said in this thread about your conduct is pretty patently obvious in review of the prior threads. If I'm incorrect in any regard, please do correct me. I'm certainly not lying about you, if that's what you're suggesting. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 04:05, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
        • I don't see it so black and white. And i'm sure others don't either. Like i said, it took a lot of guts to come back. Regardless if i accomplished anything in this discussion. I at least sent out my olive branches to those i specifically remember i confronted. I don't want to be confrontational with you. So if you really want to know my thoughts, you may ask me on my talkpage. Lucia Black (talk) 04:46, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Lucia Black's commentary throughout this request discussion is just oozing with her disdain for the people who edit Misplaced Pages, while at the same time subtly extolling her own virtues. I do not see this person as being successful at "just editing", and would not support any reduction in her sanctions without some concrete evidence to back up her promises. BMK (talk) 03:04, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Mendaliv best explains why, and I see no need to repeat their comments. The tone of the request is telling, and the long, argumentative responses to every objection, along with the implication that Lucia is doing wikipedia some sort of favour by considering a return, if, and only if, wikipedia agrees to her terms, shows that nothing has changed. No reason this topic ban should be vacated without the usual expectations of non-problematic edits elsewhere being met. Begoon  03:06, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I really feel like all hell is set loose whenever my name comes up (pardon my choice of words). But i'm seen as the worst thing possible. I've seen editors who were far worst get treated far better. Who have been exempt and given far more warnings. Things such as 1-revert restriction. If you oppose, you oppose. I can't changed that. However, I just very concerned with how i'm portrayed and how it comes across. Its almost like spreading propaganda. But fair enough. if responding is a bad sign, then i wont respond any further. No matter how untrue it seems to me. Lucia Black (talk) 03:21, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Actions should speak louder than words so if you do get your topic ban reduced it can be shown but you can still say too much and hang yourself as a result. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:32, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support reduced area of topic ban per Ched and Robert McClenon. We do have issues of editor retention and we do need to encourage editors who have changed their ways to come back and edit constructively. Blocks and bans are cheap, but editors are not. --I am One of Many (talk) 07:30, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Editor retention is a problem, but not in the way you may be thinking. Users that engage in the sort of wall-of-text debating and casting of aspersions that we've seen in this very discussion are what drive away new editors... the very people we need to keep Misplaced Pages going in the long run, especially in the manga and anime topic. We cannot let the project (or any WikiProject for that matter) turn into a walled garden. Without some demonstration of reform on Lucia's part beyond words, narrowing the topic ban is a bad move. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 07:51, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @Mendaliv: that's not a real reason to have someone Topic-banned. There are lengthy discussions everywhere. You among other members here, including myself. But WP:AN is a special situation. Its not like the other talkpages. No one is referencing policies, or guidelines. And to me its not worth it. I rather never make significant, heart-felt contributions than to be subject to all this negativity. Lucia Black (talk) 11:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
      • If you want to have people be strict on referencing policy, you need to immediately stop making new edits about Japanese media on your user page and the querying other user talks to take a look, per WP:TBAN. Simply put, you've already violated your topic ban. (And as I noted before, even posting to AN in the first place was a violation). -- ferret (talk) 14:42, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
        • I want an honest discussion, based on real merits. "real" reasons to block someone or keep a block. That's all i'm saying. I'm sorry if its bordering against the rules. But i'm really concerned with those articles per WP:DEADLINE. Originally it was implied with me and Ched. I didn't ask him directly. But most of the admins thought it was perfectly fine anyways. Regardless, we're talking about things that hurt no one in the process. Lucia Black (talk) 14:54, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
          • DEADLINE is an essay, not even a guideline, so it hardly trumps TBAN, a policy. So it's not bordering against the rules... It is. I appreciate your concern for the articles, but please do not violate the Japanese media TBAN further while the discussion continues.. -- ferret (talk) 14:58, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I didn't use DEADLINE as a policy/guideline. i linked it for a specific reasons that are "very" real in the situation that we are talking about (take a look if you want). I wont do it again, but i would appreciate an easier tone. I'm trying my best not to argue with anyone, all i want to do is clarify. Anything that i find absolutely false, i will mention. this may cause back-and-forth. But i dont think if anyone was in my situation, they wouldn't see it differently.

I dont even know why this discussion is still open. Every time i'm here, people have large, "Radical" ideas about me. Yes, in the past i had issues. I don't plan on going back to them. In fact, i rather just not pursue this anymore. There's a large group of people who have large radical ideas about me. And i know why they have those ideas. And i'm sorry if this sounds like bad-faith, but i dont believe everyone who has opposed actually knows why "objectively". They have objective points, but maybe not the most objective reasons. And if you are curious enough to know what i mean by that, i can elaborate in a lengthy post (most likely in my talkpage to make room). Lucia Black (talk) 15:09, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not yet I really wanted to vote support. Halfway down the thread I was ready to. But the longer it goes on, the more apparent it is that, although Lucia has clearly improved a lot, "Anything that i find absolutely false, i will mention. this may cause back-and-forth." indicates they are not quite ready. This request began "Assuming that people have changed..." Collectively, they never do. To participate in Misplaced Pages is to interact with people saying and doing stupid stuff; this is far less important than all the awesome stuff people do (write articles, compromise, et. al.). If Lucia (or anyone else) is unable to learn to ignore stupid stuff and focus on good stuff, they will not be happy here and should find other hobbies. NE Ent 13:17, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

reply It would be one thing to ignore what you call "stupid stuff" when doing the general editing on Misplaced Pages. All i have to do is follow the guidelines, the policies, and make sure i get a consensus. And if they really break the rules and ignore repeatedly. All i need to do is bring it up with the Wikiproject/Admin. But its a completely different thing when people who say what you call "stupid stuff" control how you enjoy Misplaced Pages. And when i hear out there own personal beliefs. "Oh we shouldn't because she makes too many lengthy posts", "we need to see her edit elsewhere, but it doesn't matter what she edits, we need to see her in a questionable situation where she can edit" "No wait, for me, its just that she edits. Doesn't matter if she doesn't get into a specific situation" or "She responds to the stupid stuff people say about her despite being the controlling consensus" Its exhausting. Its so easy making these demands when you know you're the majority. Its easy to stretch the truth about me. And i honestly don't want to pursue this anymore. It has been proven in this discussion more than ever that you don't want me to just follow the rules and policies of Misplaced Pages, but you want me to change to your ideal editor. Lucia Black (talk) 15:45, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully, you're wrong about your characterization of the community... and your persistence in the pursuit of that characterization is really hamstringing your efforts in returning. I really wish I could communicate it better to you, Lucia. I'm not saying that you have to let every bad thing just roll off your back and approach every situation from a third party perspective, but honestly... if you find this discussion exhausting, I don't think you're to the point where you can handle a full-blown content dispute. And that's where I want to see you before I can support. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 20:32, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. From what I see here it seems that Lucia has bit of a blind-spot regarding all of this. E.g., in her opening statement (what drew me in here) she says "I've decided to give Misplaced Pages one more chance." Oh? This is an odd inversion, and even a mischaracterization, of the situation. It does not bode well. Particularly when she puts a condition on her return (only if the original ban is removed). If she has reformed, and wants some opportunity to demonstrate better interactions, then perhaps she might be allowed to edit on some specific topics. But as her only intent is to return to a topic area where there has been, and likely will be, conflict, I wonder if WP really wants to take this proffered chance. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:10, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I suppose a literal reading of "I've decided to give Misplaced Pages one more chance." could give that interpretation, but in the spirit of fairness I feel that "I've decided to give Misplaced Pages one more shot" is a more liberal way of looking at it, but YMMV. An editor who has a very narrow range of interests and gets topic banned will most likely never return. Judging by past threads, Lucia struggles in these sort of arenas (considering NA and ANI can be like the Roman Coliseum at times) and had a tendency to go on the defensive resulting in a very large hole being excavated for and by herself. @Lucia Black: at this point, I really recommend that you just let this thread play out without responding to people unless they directly ping you or ask you a question. Responding to each and every comment that you feel is unfair or unjustified is what got you into a lot of hot water because of your defensiveness. Blackmane (talk) 01:28, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

A chance at what? Reducing the topic ban? Is it Misplaced Pages's fault that no one wants to deal with her editing or more accurately no one wanted to deal with her coming to AN or ANI with complaints repeatedly in the topic area where she was editing? Besides, the other issue is "or else what?" If this is denied, then Lucia continues under a Japanese entertainment topic ban and is permitted to edit here as Lucia has been since the start and has been following since this discussion began. Is the issue again whether or not Misplaced Pages suffers because Lucia does not wish to edit anything non-Japanese entertainment? So? There are people who only come here to push a POV and if they get topic banned, they don't enjoy it here either. Someone people don't enjoy it here if they can't name-call others, others if they can't just put up copyrighted text, others if anyone else even touches "their" work. The response isn't "let's try getting rid of the topic bans and restrictions based on their refusal to edit anywhere or the way we expect them too and see if that helps". Further, Lucia's cross-posting these requests to the various WikiProject like here and here looks like forum shopping to me and shows an massively inflated sense of importance to those projects. I can't imagine the need for various projects to comment on whether or not particular editors should be permitted there but that's just me. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Wow. I hadn't even seen those crossposts. That is troubling. As to Lucia's OP, I actually took it in the same way as Blackmane... like Lucia was more saying that she wanted to try Misplaced Pages again, see if it worked this time, something to that effect. That said, the issue isn't so much that what Lucia said can be read that way, but that the tenor of her responses leads good faith readers to that negative reading. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 01:54, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Precision of meaning is very important to an encyclopedia. How are we then to trust an editor who can't represent her own request with appropriate precision?It's interesting, when this discussion began, I only very vaguely remembered Lucia Black, and it was just a name I recognized from the past, I had no memory of what kind of controversy or dispute was connected to her. But as this discussion has gone on, the tenor of those previous discussion has become clearer and clearer to me -- without my looking up anything in the archives. I recall now that this attitude of LB's is pretty much what did her in her before. And that's important, because it means she hasn't changed, and that was what needed to happen, not that the entire Misplaced Pages community would change, but that LB's attitude toward it, and her estimation of her place in it and importance to the project, would change, That quite obviously hasn't happened, she still has precisely the same misapprehensions as she did before.It's clear to me that if her request is granted, the same problems that arose before will arise again. Absent any evidence that the sanctions are no longer required, the safest course is to turn down her request; she can continue to edit under the conditions that were set before her exit from editing. BMK (talk) 03:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Which notably are the conditions in which Lucia is currently editing and of which there are no issues I can see at the moment. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. BMK (talk) 05:29, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Break: I requested this to be closed

I don't want to pursue this anymore. I respectfully ask that this be close. I don't mind that people oppose (its their right to). I intended to do as much as i can regardless and come back another time (even if i don't enjoy it). But in the end, its just not working out. WP:AN is, and will forever be my weakness, no matter how much i change. However, Japanese-media related articles isn't my weakness and never was. In fact its my biggest strength, and I've gained a good amount of friends who actually see me as a vauable asset. But if the gatekeeper is WP:AN/ANI and everyone only judges me for WP:AN/ANI, then i'm doomed from the start. I'll never get there.

I repeat: I respectfully ask for this to be closed. If people don't want to believe i changed, asking for this to be closed then allowing it to drag on is the biggest change you'll ever see, regardless if i get what i need to enjoy Misplaced Pages. Lucia Black (talk) 12:13, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Sporting Clube de Portugal review requested

As of yesterday, I have semi-protected Sporting Clube de Portugal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) until 1 January 2016 due to persistent disruptive editing. There are still some outstanding issues and I am requesting assistance to help bring this article back in line with WP:NPOV policy, as the article in its current state is overly promotional. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 23:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Opinion polling for the Hong Kong legislative election, 2012

Articles 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 were proposed for merge in December 2014. It is now December 2015, and the article have still not been merged. I do not have the skill set to trim the coding. May I remove the disposition tags, if no action has taken place up until now? --Jax 0677 (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not have time right this moment, but I will try to work on this in the next few days. An example of the table code trimming that is expected can be seen in this diff. I will do the trimming on each table, then they can be moved to the main article and redirected (Assuming no one beats me to it.) -- ferret (talk) 21:22, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I found some time. :) All six tables have been trimmed of unnecessary formatting. I also did the table at the main article. This could be shrunk further by replacing the background style statements (For PaleGreen and Pink) with the Yes2 and No2 templates, which are a similar color. I decided not to do that because someone may view those templates are attributing a positive or negative view on the party/candidate being represented. But if no one has an objection, I can go ahead with it. Nevermind. It would shrink the article Wiki-side but those templates being sent to the client are a huge increase. Whoops. -- ferret (talk) 22:41, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Interaction Ban Request between TheGracefulSlick and CrazyAces489

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am requesting an IBAN request between us 2. As I am simply tired of some of the rude comments made towards me by TheGracefulSlick, I am again requesting for an Misplaced Pages:IBAN . This is the second time I requested it on a noticeboard. He is consistently rude to me and leaves comments on articles like this. . He puts them up and later asks others if the article is noteworthy. even though many others know it is noteworthy. . I simply do NOT want him on my talkpage or to follow me around on wikipedia. Look at the editor utility report of articles he follows me around This is very very annoying. CrazyAces489 (talk) 16:13, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I am perhaps more tired of having to clean up the messes you leave in articles CrazyAces. Many others know it is note worthy? Try the one person, Niteshift36, I asked knows. I apologize if I was skeptical, but you have a terrible track record for creating articles and protecting articles that are not noteworthy. Just from looking at your recent history, I see you have two additional articles up for deletion, which has become a regular thing for you. I placed the notability tag (and justly removed it when I got a reliable opinion) back on that basketball player's page simply because I do not think you understand what notability is at this point. Again, your track record and the pleas by editors for you to improve your content and subjects for creation shows this. I have not been on your talk page for the longest of times, you actually were the last person to contact me, to which I replied on my page, on my talk page so maybe you should stop contacting me.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 16:34, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

If the longest of times is Nov 16, 2015. Skeptical and a rude comment are 2 different things. The other person I asked for an IBAN for in a previous attempt was Niteshift36 along with TheGracefulSlick. As I have tried to stay away from him and he finds his way to many articles I go to. I am simply asking for a more permanent ban. CrazyAces489 (talk) 17:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

• And when did you make a formal request for an interaction ban? Niteshift36 (talk) 01:22, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I made a formal request here CrazyAces489 (talk) 16:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oh, the one you buried in the middle of your creation ban? Yeah, that's a formal request....in your mind. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I would be happy to leave you to your work if you showed any improvement. You haven't, which is proven from being denied from your article creation ban being lifted. When I go to articles you edit, I simply fix the constant errors you make, which is allowed, and actually encouraged, by the wiki guidelines. The way you can improve is very simple too, and I would be happy to help you since you have supposedly asked for mentoring before. However, since you will decline any aid, I need to continue to address your errors. Any sensible admin will realize I am only doing what is best for the articles.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

TheGracefulSlick Why not simply leave me alone? You are constantly annoying me. I simply don't like you and would like you hanging around me to be over. Thanks! CrazyAces489 (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

As I have said before CrazyAces489 show some actual improvement in your editing and stop making the same mistakes people have constantly made you aware of, then you won't hear from me. I don't enjoy having to clean-up after you, it's the most annoying activity I have to do, it gets in the way of my editing. Plus, I have a genuine interest in sports figures, and martial arts, so it bugs me when they are not represented properly. I would write more on those topics, but first I want to settle my musical plans before anything else.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:54, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Removing notability tags is an improvement. Again I am asking an Admin to stop his stalking me and passive agressive behavior. This is a personal vendetta since he was blocked and one of his articles was nominated for deletion. CrazyAces489 (talk) 00:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

How is removing a tag an improvement? You did nothing to improve the article by removing a tag. If you made even a medium-scaled edit with reliable sources, I'd be impressed. I have long gotten over what you did months ago. All it did was reveal you have no credibility in determining notability, and that someone needs to clean-up your messes around here.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:07, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Not commenting one way or another on the underlying dispute here, not having the time to dig into it, but the comment made here does bear addressing. "Removing notability tags" is not an improvement unless the reason the tag was placed on the article is addressed. Simply removing the tag, and nothing else, is not an improvement - in fact, it can be considered disruptive. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• This whole thing again? Crazy Aces churns out sub-standard articles at a considerable rate. Attempts have been made to help him improve his "contributions" but he has refused them. His attitude has always been "I create so others can work" (I'll dig up the diff if the quote is actually disputed) and I've seen no change from that. His fall back is always bringing up race and "institutional racism", implying that editors are acting out of race based reasons or something similar. Every discussion ends up being essentially a copy and paste of previous ones, complete with a ridiculous amount of diffs of things people said months ago. He's been caught socking and most recently violating his article creation ban. If Crazy Aces spent half the time improving his creations (actually improving them, not just removing tags) as he did complaining about TGS, his articles would not be poorly written, poorly referenced and often deleted. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:33, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

^^This. I'm not trawling for diffs for the same reason, but I recall the last couple of discussions, and Niteshift36 sums it up perfectly, and eloquently, to my mind. It's Groundhog Day (again), and eventually the loop needs to be broken, by CA changing their approach, or, regrettably, by effective sanctions. Begoon  13:12, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Niteshift36, you stated that I have been churning out articles at a considerable rate? The last article outside of my mistaken article (that was supposed to be in userspace) and redirects of variations in name was on July 8, 2015. This was over 5 months ago. So the I create so others can work, hasn't been done in over 5 months! I don't create, I simply do minor fixes! With the "socking" I am actually going to have a checkuser done on my account to prove that I didn't sock! These were random IP's editing and made to seem like it was associated with me! The tag I removed was a notability tag for Pee Wee Kirkland who I said in my comment "easily passes gng" had numerous articles written about him including The Daily News , ESPN , TV Spots , Sherdog which is known for MMA , the Village Voice , Sports Illustrated and the New York Times . Even you said that Pee Wee Kirkland passes GNG . So why are you now saying that it was a problem to remove the notability tag? Lastly referring to me as "Crazy Aces" is quite similar to referring to me as CrazyAces for which you were warned about in the Admin Noticeboard 881 by Bishonen | talk 14:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC) who stated "Don't do it again. However frustrated you are, it's seriously inappropriate, and, yes, I'd call it bullying." CrazyAces489 (talk) 16:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• See my response above where I predicted this response. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

The Bushranger I didn't just remove the tag, I left a comment of "(easily passes gng)" to which TheGracefulSlick replies "(Street basketball player...thousands of those. Please learn about notability so I do not need to keep doing this. Thank you)" Pee Wee Kirkland has had dozens of articles written about him even the New York Times (which was in the article). I have heard many times that having a New York Times article or obituary shows notability. I even challenged TheGracefulSlick to put up the article for an AFD if he feels the subject isn't notable. I knew by the sheer number of independent articles The Daily News , ESPN , TV Spots , Sherdog which is known for MMA , the Village Voice , Sports Illustrated and the New York Times that the subject would pass, so his comment of "Please learn about notability" was unnecessary. CrazyAces489 (talk) 16:27, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Removing a tag and making an edit summary isn't "improving" an article either. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Since TheGracefulSlick brought in Niteshift, which I believe is Canvassing. I will ask a friend of TheGracefulSlick to chime in Garagepunk66 . Even Garagepunk66, has stated " I respect your passion for black empowerment. I think that many well-meaning white people have a blind spot about race--even well meaning liberals. I don't think that most whites appreciate the degree to which practically every single black person in this country is constantly subjected to racism, slights, and humiliations, whether overt, covert, personal, or systematic on a daily basis. I realize that black people have to live the daily curse of having people look at them strangely, cops stopping them, even when they may be educated and affluent, people not wanting to hire them, along with all of the other economic inequalities." I added a good number of strong black subjects including Atrocities in the Congo Free State, Marilyn Mosby, at least 15 Negro League Baseball player articles, 2 defunct black colleges Natchez Junior College / Avery College , Discrimination in bar exam, 1972 Olympics Black Power salute , Racial bias on Misplaced Pages, and Racism in martial arts. Misplaced Pages is documented to suffer from sexism and racism it's userbase CrazyAces489 (talk) 17:09, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Um, wrong. Let's address your false allegation of canvassing (which wouldn't even apply here). You won't find any notification or invitation from TGS to get me here. I only found out about this discussion when YOU solicited GaragePunk to come and support this . Kind of ironic, isn't it that if canvassing brought me here, it was your canvassing that did it? Niteshift36 (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose interaction ban IBANs are not to avoid legitimate criticism. This is a collaborative environment and people are going to look over and fix up your work. They may even point out faults in your work. This is not harassment, it is collaborative editing. If people are telling you that your editing has problems then try to improve your editing rather than trying to stop people from telling you that. HighInBC 17:12, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

HighInBC I am ok with criticism, but both of these individuals have been quite harsh in their conversation with me to which I have reported. Also, I speak in African American Vernacular English and have been mocked repeatedly by Niteshift36 in my use of it. CrazyAces489 (talk) 17:45, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Please stop with that lie. Nobody has "mocked" you. You've been (correctly) told that we use standard English here and that editing should be done using it. You were told that if you wanted to edit using Ebonics, that one option was to start an Ebonics Misplaced Pages. That's not mocking, it's a suggestion. Additionally, much of your editing problems has nothing to do with Ebonics. Yes, you did "report" me and the end result was 2 admins telling you that you weren't being stalked, that your "I create so others can work" position was the wrong one to take, that a Boomerang was a real possibility and oh yea, that it was rude of me to call bold the first half of your name. I corrected the bolding, but your editing hasn't changed. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

What about my editing has stayed the same? I don't create articles anymore! I mostly only do minor edits now! So where do you see the same things from 5 months ago? CrazyAces489 (talk) 18:22, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Only minor edits? Like this edit 9 days ago? ? Whatever dude. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:50, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Password strength policy for users with advanced permisssions

Following the Misplaced Pages:Security review RfC, new requirements are in place for administrators and other users with advanced permissions. You can view the new policy at Misplaced Pages:Password strength requirements. It';s somewhat incomplete at the moment, some fo the details involving the WMF have yet to be finalized. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Standard offer unblock request from Dicklyon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In April 2015, Dicklyon was blocked indefinitely for abusing multiple accounts. Recently, he has requested an unblock under the standard offer. After performing a checkuser, it appears there were a few IP edits made during the block. A couple of edits involved general wiki-gnoming and another edit involved contributing to a community discussion. To my knowledge, no additional accounts were created. After some discussion on the functionary email list it was suggested to bring this forth to the community for review. Mike V • Talk 03:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

What was the reason for running the CU? NE Ent 10:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry block. Reaper Eternal (talk) 15:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Non-sequitur. Checkusering is used to verify sockpuppetry before blocking. What evidence / suspicion was there the IPs edits were Dicklyon? NE Ent 03:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

When someone is requesting a standard offer unblock after a sockpuppetry block, it is standard procedure to run checks to verify their compliance with the terms of the offer. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 04:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

• Does not the standard offer require no socking edits at all? Regardless of the number, or no accounts being created, the IP edits would seem to invalidate the request. BMK (talk) 04:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• I'm also concerned that Dicklyon, who has been a productive if sometimes single-minded contributor, doesn't yet qualify for the standard offer, if IP edits count as block evasion, and IMHO they do. I'd be cool with granting the standard offer once six months have gone by without any edits to pagespace using any account or address (requesting unblock edits notwithstanding). Allowing the editor to come back without honoring the standard offer sends the wrong message both to Dicklyon and other indef blocked editors who may come to view the six month period as a "just don't get caught" situation. BusterD (talk) 06:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock I forget the reason for the meltdown but it was one of those things that could happen to anyone who had allowed themselves to get too caught up in a wiki-conflict. Dicklyon is a great asset to the encyclopedia particularly when he works in some of the more technical areas (articles on electronics and so on). Let's hope Dicklyon avoids issues relating to dashes in article titles (or whatever trivia was at the core of the conflict), but any problems can be quickly handled. Johnuniq (talk) 07:03, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• support unblock I consider him fundamentally reliable. That's more important then technicalities. DGG ( talk ) 07:29, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock He has given me trouble in the past, but I think overall he is useful to Misplaced Pages. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:07, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support. He was a good contributor to the project for a very long time. He also did some very stupid things that led to the indef block, but I think he can redeem himself. Perhaps an agreement or topic ban to stay away from whatever area it was caused all the issues back then (can't remember exactly what it was, something MoS-related?) would be beneficial both for Dicklyon and for anyone who has doubts about his return. I'd also be interested to hear why Xaosflux chose now to remove the autopatrolled/rollbacker permissions from Dicklyon's account. It looks like there is a fair chance he will return so to do it now, rather than when he was indef'd however many months ago, seems a bit petty. Jenks24 (talk) 09:49, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

  @Jenks24: I've reverted this for now, prior note was that editors should only have standard extra flags on their primary account - and it was unclear which would be the primary. I have not touched the block itself. — xaosflux 13:10, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux: Thanks. I can understand that it wasn't completely clear in his request, but I think there is little doubt Dicklyon will be the account he uses if the consensus is to unblock. It's the name everyone knows him by and he has made ~88,000 edits with that account. Jenks24 (talk) 15:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Regardless of how good an editor is, socking to contribute to a community discussion while banned is not acceptable. The standard offer requires 6 months without editing for a good reason, specifically demonstrating that an editor is able to exercise restraint and follow simple policies. If he appeals when he is eligible for the standard offer I will likely accept, but not now. Thryduulf (talk) 10:04, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock per DGG. --Begoon  10:41, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The editor states "I have been over 7 months without editing." But if Mike V is correct then this represents another attempt "to deceive or mislead other editors, ... distort consensus, avoid sanctions, evade blocks or otherwise violate community standards and policies." Keri (talk) 12:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Sure, let's give him another chance. None of his sins are so great that they would preclude that. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:38, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock - Don't make socks again, though. Reaper Eternal (talk) 15:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock Per all above. Brustopher (talk) 15:42, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock I'm generally one for second chances. A handful of edits in 6 months from someone who has 80k edits to their name is effectively zero. Worm(talk) 17:37, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock but endorse extension of 6-month move ban per this thread. Dicklyon was banned from performing any page moves except for proposing a move via the requested move process, and there seems to be consensus from that discussion that disruptive moves were an ongoing issue prior to the sockpuppetry coming to light. I think the intent of that ban is for Dicklyon to participate constructively for six months before that ban is lifted, not just sit out for six months. But otherwise, welcome back. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 19:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock with continued pagemove ban. bd2412 T 19:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Provisional support of unblock while maintaining a 6-months pagemove ban - In theory this is something I certainly support, but we don't have all the facts -- the wikignoming is a total non-issue for me, but the IP edit to a community discussion certainly raises some concerns. While I understand that CU policy forbids Mike from pointing out these edits, I wonder if @Dicklyon: might be willing to divulge what community discussion he saw fit to participate in as an IP while his account was blocked. (Dicklyon, if you reply on your talk page and not via e-mail, please ping me). ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 20:13, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support an unblock, on the condition that he ceases to continue the same disruptive activity that led to his block. Dicklyon is a pretty good editor, but I think it was his imprudent page moves that got him blocked in the first place. epicgenius (talk) 21:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock per DGG. I had very positive experience with his edits, although we sometimes disagreed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Thryduulf, until we get clarity on recent socking. If he is permitted to come back, the ban on page moves should remain in plance. Jonathunder (talk) 04:35, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comments from blocking admin: I was very much ready to support Dicklyon's standard offer request. After learning that he had done some logged-out wikignoming, I was ready to overlook that minor violation of the terms and was still in support of an unblock. However, editing Misplaced Pages space to contribute to a community discussion changes the equation. I can't say that I'm particularly opposed to an unblock, but I am no longer able to support it. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 04:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Please unblock Penyulap

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could admins please unblock User:Penyulap. (WHY is he blocked? Can anyone provide specificity? and undeniable commitment/contribution re building WP .]) Thanks for consideration. IHTS (talk) 04:22, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

He sounds like a great guy, but without knowing why he was blocked in the first place I cant really say much. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:29, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

So...you're asking for an unblock when you don't know why the editor was blocked, on the grounds that the editor might be a genius and has a great sense of humor? I think that it's you that has the undeniable sense of humor. BMK (talk) 04:52, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Did you even look at the block log? The information you seek can be found there. It was a {{checkuserblock}} and it happened three years ago. No admin is just going to overturn a checkuser block without talking with them first. If Penyulap wants to ask for an unblock they can do so themselves. --Stabila711 (talk) 04:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Hmm yeah it does look pretty extensive, I would agree at this point that it would be best if Penyulap asked for an unblock request. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:50, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

It was not a checkuser block. The relevant entry is:

• 19:28, 30 July 2012 Coren (talk | contribs) blocked Penyulap (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (Editor not here to create an encyclopedia)

The rest of the entries after that are simply revoking or enabling talk page or e-mail access. The user and his friends have been pushing the "why was I blocked" meme ever since. BMK (talk) 04:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

My mistake. I saw the second entry down,

13:40, November 4, 2012 Courcelles (talk | contribs) changed block settings for Penyulap (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) ({{checkuserblock}}: Nothing but trolling on user talk page; abusing multiple accounts)

and didn't read any further since it said checkuserblock. In any case, my statement that Penyulap should ask for an unblock themselves still stands and this section should probably be closed. --Stabila711 (talk) 05:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Pardon me for slipping this in after the close: for those interested, the original block discussion is here.BMK (talk) 05:26, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Bad image list addition

Please add this image (warning: graphic nudity) and this image to the bad image list. The two photos were recently used to vandalize Talk:Donald Trump. Thank you. CatcherStorm 05:49, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@CatcherStorm: Um an edit like this: should be reported to the Wikimedia Foundation. It may be harmless trolling but you never can tell. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:52, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Page has been protected, users blocked, and I emailed the emergency account. --Stabila711 (talk) 06:01, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay thanks. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 06:02, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Should be handled via range block. Unfortunately I can't get the range contribs tool to load, so I can't check the use, but it's not that big. No need to change the bad image list IMO. Prodego 06:33, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Prodego: I think Legoktm beat you to it. They blocked 184.151.190.0/24 --Stabila711 (talk) 06:35, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I did the /20 to catch the 178 address. Prodego 06:36, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Alternate Account Requested

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm getting myself a tablet for Christmas and I will, of course, be able to access Misplaced Pages on-the-go. As it is perfered with mobile devices, I will have an alternate account.

I am requesting one here on AN because a long, long, long, loooong time ago in a land far, far, far, faaaar away, I created some sockpuppetry accounts and was rightly blocked for it. I don't want to have that problem again. Hence, I am requesting the alternate account. I have one picked out, but not yet registered. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:28, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Register it and have a notice that it is your alt account. If you do not want other users to know this is your account, mail it to checkusers.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:31, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no problems with people knowing about this account, I just want the admins to know so I'm not accused of sockpuppetry. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:32, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

If you use the alt account in a legitimate way (say do not vote from two accounts in the same discussion) and have it clearly marked as an alt account I see no way you could be accused in sockpuppetry.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:35, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I just wanted to play it safe. The alternate account is User:Neutralhomer has Escaped. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:51, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Ymblanter: The only edits I made with the account online were to update the preferences to the same as my main account and to copy all my .css and .js files from this account to that one. Essentially so everything looks and operates the same. I also created a signature...that looks the same, but with the correct username. :) I, of course, made mention of the alternate account on my main account userpages and mentioned my main account on the alternate user and talk pages.

Do I need to do anything else? Checkuser to confirm? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 09:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

It looks OK to me. You have disclosed the alternate account on both user pages. Checkusers do not need to be informed at this point. They will be concerned if there is another socking episode. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:36, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Graeme Bartlett: OK, I wasn't sure what the process was. Thanks to both of you for your help. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

R2me2

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R2me2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked a few weeks ago for suspected sockpuppetry, which appears to be based on him creating a sandbox with some fairly common band templates that happened to match another user, viz this and this. Aside from formatting, the actual content appears to be different and I can't find anywhere that says creating a bunch of test edits to use in a band article is against policy and requires a block. Despite an extended conversation with several administrators, I have gone round in circles and received nothing more than "he's socking" and my query of exactly what damage and disruption R2me2 has caused has been ignored. Therefore I'd like to gauge the community's consensus on whether we should unblock or not. On a related note, could admins review Xeno (album) and determine whether the speedy deletion via G5 is appropriate or whether something else should happen to it (it doesn't appear to meet any other speedy criteria, specifically A7, A9, G11 or G12). Ritchie333 12:13, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

The non-admin part of the community will need User:R2me2/sandbox undeleted to offer an opinion. NE Ent 12:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Temporarily undeleted. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Format wise, User:R2me2/sandbox looks like User:TheUserOfWiki14Robbie/sandbox which looks like (e.g.) Van_Halen#Band_members looks like Foreigner_(band)#Members looks like Jefferson_Airplane#Members. Given the general community desire for standardization, as evidenced by WP:MOS, two editors utilizing a fairly standard format in their own userboxes is not evidence of sockpuppetry. Overlap , is hardly surprising for a couple editors interested in music, evaluating indicates the editors were posting in different sections (and that Robbie is fairly incompent, sockwise, since they signed their own post with PacoDaKing14Sportz). R2me2 should be unblocked soonest. NE Ent 15:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I admit that I did not realize that the timeline template was so standardized at the time. I may have made a mistake here when I declined the unblock request. I have no objection to another determination being made. HighInBC 15:28, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

See also this edit. I support unblocking immediately. Prodego 16:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Clerking RfC

Hello. You are invited to comment on this RfC concerning clerking at RfA: Misplaced Pages:2015 administrator election reform/Phase II/Clerking RfC. Please do not comment in this section, but rather make all comments in the appropriate place on the RfC. Thank you. Biblioworm 22:32, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm interested in being a closer on this one. If anyone else wants to close, please say something on the RfC's talk page before January 20, the 30-day point. I think it's a given that this one will be messy. I'm guessing it will be hard to assess consensus on one or more points, and if so, I intend to ask the voters for clarification (on just the hard-to-assess points). I've added a notice to that effect. Comments welcome, here or there. - Dank (push to talk) 23:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 November 8#Category:Blue-eyed soul singers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Would an uninvolved admin please assess this? The discussion has been open since November 8. Erpert 01:11, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

 Done - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:31, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive edits of articles related Bulgaria by socks of banned Jingiby

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello,

I want to inform you that user StanProg and IP's 46.238.25.84 ; 46.16.193.70 are the same person as the banned user Jingiby - the edits are the same (disruptive), deleting of sourced information and foisting his personal views. He is consatntaly abusing articles about Bulgarian history also in Bulgarian Misplaced Pages.

Thank you 188.254.217.110 (talk) 03:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the two users seem to be quite distinct from each other, judging from their edits elsewhere. You, on the other hands have made a ton of disruptive edits, accompanied by homophobic and racial slurs (such as thisthisthisthis and this among others).--Laveol 09:57, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Obviously spurious complaint. Reporting IP boomeranged for disruptive editing, edit-warring and personal attacks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:11, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Stop the War Coalition article is a mess

The article on the Stop The War Coalition has degenerated into one user's pet project, and the bias is reflected throughout: For example, in clear violation of BLP, Agnes Mariam de la Croix is listed variously as an "Assad regime apologist" and other such epithets, in what clearly would constitute libel in the UK. Also, the entire article is being re-written to have a strong slant against the STW Coalition (not that I'm much a fan of them myself).

I've tried to undo some of the more troublesome edits, but please feel free to look at the article and see what I'm talking about. Solntsa90 (talk) 15:51, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I am that "one user" and have worked on both the Mother Agnes and Stop the War articles. Solntsa90, while like you, I live in the UK, this website is bound by the law of libel in the United States. In many, many, articles in reliable sources published in Britain and the US, Mother Agnes has been accused of being an apologist for the Assad regime. Articles defending Stop the War in the mainstream UK media are scarce, and the article will inevitably reflect that slant. In any case, because online articles about Stop the War are rare in mainstream sources before about 2003, I am having to use the Socialist Worker website for factual information. It is the paper of the British Socialist Workers Party, a neo-Trotskyist organisation which was involved in setting up Stop the War. Any other positive pieces about Stop the War are likely to be contained in other WP:FRINGE and marginal, or at least alternative, sources. Philip Cross (talk) 17:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Phillip Cross has responded with a message on the talk page that casts doubt over his ability to edit Agnes Mariam de la croix, Stop the War Coalition, and other articles related to prominent British leftists without bias.

User:Solntsa90 is now clutching at straws to protect the dubious reputation of the wretched Mother Agnes. The Raya Jalabi article in The Guardian is clear on establishing a link between Jones and Scahill's threat and Mother Agnes withdrawal. In the quote I added to the citation it is clearly implied. That Raya Jalabi in her article does not use the word "because" is true, but it is ridiculous nit picking to remove this sentence for that reason. By the way, Misplaced Pages obeys the libel laws of the United States which don't allow such a dodgy individual as Mother Agnes as much protection as she would be allowed in the UK (my own country). Philip Cross (talk) 16:38, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Clearly and frankly, there is no interest in making unbiased edits on the part of the editor here. Solntsa90 (talk) 18:22, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

What users can type on a talk page is entirely different to what we can add to an article. Solntsa90, it is clear you cannot claim to be neutral in your talk page comments either. Contrary to multiple reliable sources, why are you so keen that Mother Agnes should be presented in a good light? Philip Cross (talk) 18:39, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• There is only a single sentence mention of Agnes at Stop_the_War_Coalition#Syrian_civil_war. Agnes Mariam de la Croix is another matter entirely. The article is sprinkled with clear unsourced personal commentary in the middle of factual statements though. It seems to have other editors involved at the momenet. Solntsa90, are you asking for a block? For a topic ban? For more eyes? Are the sources provided inaccurate? Is this something for BLP/N not here? There are lines between sources claiming that she is favored by the regime and personal commentary stating that she is an apologist for the regime. It may require a bit more nuance in the writing about her. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:53, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
• No-one should be editing on a matter they have strong views on; BLP definitely applies on talk pages. Tentatively endorse a topic ban on the basis of the talk page comment, this edit, and more especially on Philip Cross's apparent inability to see that comments and edits like this will be seen as problematic. --John (talk) 18:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

In that edit is a citation to an article in The Daily Telegraph, a reliable source, and the article's author, Andrew Gilligan, is a reputable journalist. That it is Conservative newspaper, and Gilligan writes negatively about the far left quite often, does not mean the StWC article has a citation to an unsuitable source for a left-wing organisation. Stop the War has numerous people near its apex whose party and organisational affiliations are far from mainstream politics. In other words, in the UK context the mainstream parties are Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem, Ukip (alas) and Green (even if the BBC disagrees). The mostly fringe politics of StWC personnel has been an issue for a long time, and of the five mainstream parties, only the Corbyn faction of the Labour Party (a small minority of Labour MPs) and the Greens have had much time for it. Philip Cross (talk) 19:35, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, the article has contained a long list of people involved in Stop the War for years. The political affiliations to the British Socialist Workers Party of John Rees and Lindsey German, and Kate Hudson (formerly) and Andrew Murray to the Communist Party of Britain have been there all along. The CPB and the SWP are small parties of the British far left. I simply raised the profile of these connections. So what, in addition, does the Gilligan article contain which is so objectionable? Philip Cross (talk) 19:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

So you maintain there is nothing even potentially problematic about your edits? The talk page comment and the edit I highlighted? And you intend to continue editing as you have been? --John (talk) 19:52, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah yes you mention here, one talk page comment about a controversial figure you don't like, and one edit you dislike. You are, of course, at liberty to dos so. I might as well mention our clash earlier today over the Lord Janner article as well. Philip Cross (talk) 20:03, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

As I am taking that as a "yes", with an ad hominem thrown in, count me as a support topic ban. --John (talk) 20:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban as well. Although I did add it, the fact that Philip Cross removed a citation needed tag from an alleged direct quote from a British politician (I was being nice rather than following BLP directly) without bothering to provide an actual citation is problematic enough. Tagging the organization based on its members and then tagging all the members together requires good sources and those statements have no sources at all, quite problematic when the claim is that they support the Assad regime. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Kevin Gorman Arbitration case suspended

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

This case shall be suspended from December 22nd, 2015 to January 2nd, 2016.

For the Arbitration Committee, Amortias (T)(C) 20:13, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Kevin Gorman Arbitration case suspended

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