Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:24, 19 August 2006

This article was nominated for deletion on August 4, 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Controversy/Media Corruption Debate

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Another source was added. It appears as if there is a deliberate attempt to sabotage this article. More additional reliable media sources will be added in due course. There was also a BBC program about Crime Expo SA.

The South African media (media 24 is the largest newspaper / media group in South Africa) reported about the Crime Expo SA website before it was launched.

The name of the Crime Expo SA website changed from a .co.za website to a .org website.

Therefore the name changed from http://www.crimexposouthafrica.co.za/ to http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org/

Herewith the additional source:

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1964283,00.html

The logo of Crime Expo SA Needs to be added to this section.

The meaning of the word "exasperated" (greatly annoyed; out of patience) was obtained from TheSage English Dictionary and Thesaurus. (It is a complete dictionary and a multifaceted thesaurus of the English language.)

Which section of this page refer to "Advertising or other spam". What needs to be removed?

Pretty much the whole thing. Just because there is a website (run, apparently by one guy), doesn't mean Misplaced Pages has to have an article on it. See Misplaced Pages:Notability for details.

Could you please sign, by typing four tildes (~~~~) so I know who I'm talking to? Thanks. --Guinnog 01:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Guinnog. I do not agree with you. Please be precise in the areas that you do not agree with. I have a problem with your comment "run, apparently by one guy". This was probably a derogative /negative statement made by an official that is against the Crime Expo website for personal reasons. It is personal opinion, and does not belong here. Microsoft was also founded by an Individual, if that is your problem, then delete the Microsoft web page. It appear as if Crime Expo have 2 moderators at the present moment. It does not include the owner. The website received attention from BBC and CNN. BBC America had a discussion on this website. Mark 01:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, ok, you don't agree with me. If it gets to be as famous as Microsoft, your soapbox will have more legitimacy. As it is, the article is just using Misplaced Pages for free advertising, something our policy forbids. Are you connected with the organisation? --Guinnog 02:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not associated with Crime Expo. It is your opinion that this is a soapbox. The Microsoft website is then also a soapbox, as is the FIFA article, etc. I have noted that when the first version was submitted, there was an argument that there is to little reference. The moment that more references were provided, this article received other critisism. To date you have made no constructive contribution.

What is your connection with Misplaced Pages? Mark 02:50, 4 August 2006

Delete this article. Wipe it off the face of the Earth, and list crimeexposa.org as official spam not welcome on Misplaced Pages (such as those Nigerian mooo.com sites). South African editors are tired of this nonsense. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 14:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This will be a test for the impartiality of Misplaced Pages. I believe the South African editors is also tired of the farm murders section. This section is marked controversial and it appear to be correct.--Jackes 07:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

No Single person has made any constructive remark why this site should be removed. It appear as if personal opinion is the reason for requesting the removal. This does not belong here. I sincerely hope that Misplaced Pages have editors that is reliable and independent. --Jackes 08:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The comment made by Zyxoas "Delete this article. Wipe it off the face of the Earth" is offenseive and consititutes hate speech. This is not a neutral point of view. Please indicate the reasons why you say that the Crime Expo Article is spam. You do not give reasons for your statement. It would be ipropriate to ask your South African "friends" at wikipedia to delete this article, because they will then biast and not neutral. Neutral editors is required. --222.152.236.27 12:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

"Hate speech"!? That's funny. Doesn't it strike you as perhaps being a slight tad on the somewhat mildly perculiar side that none of the South African editors (the ones who are getting hijacked, robbed, raped, and killed daily) thinks that this article and site are appropriate? Actually, don't answer that, I wouldn't want you thinking that I want to discuss this with you, or something... Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen (unless if it has something to do with Crime Expo SA, THEN DON'T BOTHER)) 12:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I want to answer yopu to your comment: "none of the South African editors (the ones who are getting hijacked, robbed, raped, and killed daily) thinks that this article and site are appropriate?" Well the ANC government is currently controlling the media in South Africa. The editors are not allowed to write freely, or if they do, the information is not published. It is under the same ANC Government that all these crimes are committed. The media is not free. The crime statistics show a differnt story.--Jackes 08:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

You have nothing to contribute to this article, other than hate speech. Therefore your comments should be ignored. It is also not neutral.--210.86.107.71 02:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

After examining the Crime Expo website, the conclusion can be made that it try to expose crime in South Africa. People that are against this website, would therefore be against people that expose crime. Criminals and people favouring genocide, murder, rape would therefore be opposed to this website. Another group of people that is against the website is people from the tourist industry that does not want any negative reporting because it may affect their business. The argument is that when tourists are informed about the crime situation in South Africa, the tourist may decide not to visit South Africa, costing the tourist industry money. Tourists should however have freedom of access to information.--222.152.243.172 05:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This page is in dire need of some sanity. Anon's comments about "hate speech" are a case in point: It is not hate speech, nor could it ever be considered hate speech, to suggest that a website be erased. "Hate speech" applies only to speech that poses a threat to, or incites violence against, a person or a group of people. And Jackes, not only have you missed the point, but you appear to be spectacularly uninformed.

First, Zyxoas was referring to the S.African editors of Misplaced Pages, meaning people like myself. I have been hijacked, mugged and held-up (unlike Neil Watson, I might add), and I sure as hell don't think the site is appropriate. I'm as desperate to see the country's high crime rate reduced as anybody else is, but I do not think CrimeExpo SA is the correct way to achieve this. Rather than offering up a solution, a new way of looking at the problem or even a way to aggregate crime data, the site has set out to do one thing and one thing only: To hurt SA economically. The thing is, any half-way intelligent person knows that a growing economy is the only way we're going to have any chance of bringing the rate of crime down and that causing the economy to suffer will probably cause the crime rate to go up, not down. Or is this what Mr Watson actually wants?

Secondly, you're delusional if you really believe that "The editors are not allowed to write freely, or if they do, the information is not published." Unlike the situation before 1994, South Africa today has a free press with zero government censorship. Editors may publish what they like when they like, while the government is forbidden by law from interfering. Indeed, Neil Watson is allowed to continue operating his site unhindered despite the fact that he's a S.African citizen and his site is hosted in SA. But yet you cry censorship? Do you realise how silly this makes you sound? — Impi 00:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Impi, please read this article.--Jackes 06:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

State of media freedom in South Africa of great concern--Jackes 08:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

This refers only to one case of govt interference which has not even taken place yet. The other areas of concern are judicial rulings (in which the govt may not interfere) and the use of civil lawsuits, which again the govt cannot fairly prevent. This takes place on a daily basis.

• I am not dilutional that the editors are not allowed to write what they want. Proof me wrong. Give me the statistics of the time opposition politicians have to view their point of view on SA TV. This must include the DA, IFP, ID, VF+, and the small ones. Even Eugene Terblanche must be allowes to view his point of view if the media is free and open.

How on earth do you go from speaking about news editors to complaining about the SABC? But I digress, there's no censorship of these people, even such scum as Terreblanche. While he doesn't get as much airtime as Mbeki (big surprise there), he's certainly not prevented from airing his views when he actually has something to say. Similarly, the major newspapers regularly carry columns from politicians on all side of the political spectrum. This is absolute nonsense, ask the Freedom Front Plus.

• Crime Expo is not the public media. The public media include the SABC and the main newspapers.

Actually, CE forms part of the public media, and it would certainly be subject to any censorship that existed. Yet Neil Watson is allowed to operate his site unhindered and the government does not harass him. So much for censorship.

• The public media is controlled in SA. This include the SABC, newspapers, etc.

Nonsense, only the SABC is state-owned and controlled. All the major newspapers, e-TV and 702 (amongst others) are independent and free from government control. This is also nonsense.

• I believe the fact that the SA media is not open, is a reason why the crime EXPO website was created. Carte Blanche stop reporting on farm murders. They stop reporting on corruption in government. Why?

Carte Blanche stopped reporting on farm murders because A) The rate has gone down, and B) They wanted to move on to other stories. Besides, I don't see your point here, Carte Blanche is produced by Multichoice, an independent company. As for the claim that the local media has stopped reporting on government corruption, well which planet are you living on? I guess the continued Arms Deal coverage and wall-to-wall coverage of the Zuma trial are a figment of our imaginations, eh? It is nonsense that crime has gone down in SA. Farm murders is genocide that is kept quite. Zuma trial is politics to prevent him from becoming president.

• How do you grow an economy with corruption in government?

Corruption does harm growth, but it's not as if SA's all that bad when it comes to corruption. While it's a concern, our recent growth rate spike is proof enough that it's not exactly crippling our economy. How do you explain the 50%+ unemployment in a good economy.

• Do you know that newspapers that expose corrupt officials help the economy? How many corrupt officials was exposed by the SA newspapers? List them here.

Nobody said there should be no reporting on crime and corruption. The debate here is what the best approach to reporting on crime and solving it is. Crime is already reported in massive detail, there's no need for some shock site displaying graphic and disturbing images of dubious origin, and myself and many others believe Crime Expo SA will do less to help solve the crime problem than other approaches, and it might actually make it worse. You did not answer the question.

• Give me a list of new TV programs in Afrikaans.

Not relevant to this discussion. Besides, what percentage of the population is the Afrikaner minority in SA? You did not answer the question. Is it because you cannot answer this question?

• Public debate is completely removed from SABC TV. There is no true debate where sufficient time is allowed for persons to view there point of view without interruption or negative comments from the presenters.

SABC TV does not equal SA's media. In any case, how often does Tony Blair appear in televised debates with his opponents? I've yet to see one, and the reason is that SA and Britain both have Parliamentary systems where the President/Prime Minister has to appear regularly before Parliament and answer questions about his actions and policies. While I think public debates in the US style might not be a bad thing, it's ludicrous to claim that their absence implies censorship. Yes, the are absent because they are not allowed on the SABC.

• How many TV presenters does the SABC TV have that is not ANC supporters? Please list their names?

This is ridiculous. How is anybody supposed to know the political preferences of those working for the SABC or any other organisation? You might as well ask how many of the BBC's presenters voted Labour or Tory; it's a dumb question to ask and an impossible one to answer.

• Please provide a list of public debates between Mbeki and the opposition on TV?

See above. You did not answer the question. List all the public debates between Mbeki & opposition politicians, oh I remember Mbeki said he is of a to high status to debate with others when Tony Leon asked for a open debate.--Jackes 10:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC) The SABC TV presenters is openly in favour of the ANC.

• Write a article from a right wing perspective and try to publish it in one of the public newspapers, or try to have a program on this. I dare you to do this one as an experiment.

Right, so that's why Dan Roodt and other right-wingers don't get their overly-long letters published? Oh, wait, they do. Oops. Yeh, right! If one letter appear, then you say the media is free.

• Write an article from a left wing perspective any try to publish is.

See which one is published.

See above. Besides, this is irrelevant: Our discussion is about government censorship, not the political stance of media organisations.

• On which SA newspaper /TV program did you see the video where mandela sings to kill whites? This is promoting violence against whites, and should be publicly condemned. Please provide links to newspaper articles in SA that condemn this. If the media was free, articles should have been written about it.

Um, this is old material, as in pre-1994 old. Any newspapers that reported on it then will not have it in their online archives. That aside, I don't see what the big deal is. Not only did Mandela not sing along during the controversial bit (watch his lips), but it's worth noting that in the parlance of MK fighters "Boere" was used most often to refer not to all whites but to the police and defence force. Hence the alert, heard often in the townships, of "the Boere are coming!" even though the police and soldiers deployed were often black. Fact is, the ANC was not a racist organisation (as opposed to the PAC), and it had many white members in its ranks such as Erwin, Kasrils and others. Kasrils is a Jew and not white- this explain why is is singing. Mandela never publicly condemned violence. The ANC is a revolutionary political organisation. It cannot be revolutionary without promoting violence. You did not answer the question: "Please provide links to newspaper articles in SA that condemn this" Mandela singing to kill whites.

• I think you are dilutional to think the SA media is free.--Jackes 13:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

In this entire piece, you have not presented a single piece of evidence to prove that the SA media is not free. Instead, you have veered off into non-sequiturs about Afrikaner TV shows and the like, seemingly in an attempt to confuse the issue. So I'll ask you again: Can you prove that the SA media is not free, meaning that it is subject to serious and systematic government censorship? If you cannot, I suggest you withdraw the claim. — Impi 18:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)Impi, please read this article.--Jackes 06:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The South African media is going in the same direction as the media in Zimbabwe. --Jackes 11:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let's try organise this somewhat. First of all, I have read the Harvard link, and once again I need to point out that it refers only to the SABC and then only to a proposed change. Sure, it's not exactly a great thing, but it does not amount to censorship of the independent media in SA. You seem to be reluctant to admit this, but there's a massive difference between discussing the SABC (which is government-owned and controlled) and discussing the independent media in SA, which is vibrant and free. You're attempting to focus on the SABC's deficiencies while extrapolating them as an example for all media in SA, a move that's patently ridiculous. For that reason, it doesn't matter how many Afrikaans programs the SABC has or similar issues, instead the important question whether SA's media is free or not. You claimed it wasn't, and yet you provide absolutely zero evidence about government control of independent media such as 702, eTV and the major newspapers. Stop obscuring the issue with your off-topic attempts at political point-scoring and provide evidence for your claim that SA's media is government-controlled and censored, or withdraw the claim. It's as simple as that. — Impi 12:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Look at the Misplaced Pages internal link Media in South Africa--Jackes 04:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

"However, there has also been criticism of certain aspects of the freedom of the press in South Africa. It has been pointed out that almost all the large daily newspapers are owned by just four large media firms, which could lead to pro-Corporate bias. In addition, the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC), which is the state broadcaster, is argued by many to carry a fairly strong pro-ruling party (African National Congress (ANC)) bias, especially considering the fact that the majority of its management and executive staff are either ANC members or ANC aligned."

"Some media aspects of the Oilgate scandal have also been a cause for concern as was the banning of the publication of the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in South Africa by Judge Mohammed Jajbhay on 3 February 2006"

South claim to be a democracy. A conception of democracy is that it is majority rule and is justified under utilitarian reasoning. The advantanges of democracy seen under this conception is that the majority of the population are satisfied with the governance they live under. The disadvantage is that the minority live under the power of the majority sometimes termed the tyranny of the majority, or mob rule. This can lead to the marginalisation of large portions of a population if the will of the majority is not restrained by a strong and just constitution and legal system. Black Economic Empowerment and Affirmative action is discrimination against the minority in South Africa, and justified by the ANC majority.

• Threaths to SABC’s independence are symptomatic of a wider trend in media control

• Article of Cosatu on "Capitalism and Social Oppression" Cosatu, the African National Congress and the South African Communist party is in alliance.

Official 2010 FIFA World Cup Site

http://www.2010cup.co.za/ is not the official web site for the world cup. I have removed the link from this page as it is misleading. The official web site appears to be this site for now: --Rballou 21:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Notability Section

I have removed one link about that claimed to be to the official South Africa web site for the world cup. I have commented out another link because it claims to be part of the "Citzen newspaper", but actually redirects to the blog section of a web site . Reinstate this link correctly if it is appropriate for this page. --Rballou 21:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting link I suggest adding

Since this "article" is nothing but a badly written editorial plus a whole bunch of links to external sites, I suggest spicing it up with a link to this page; you know - "NPOV" and all that jazz. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 00:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This link

is a pay site. A free one would be very much preferable. --Guinnog 20:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Moneyweb article not to be deleted as Reference

A article redirected from the Citizen was previously deleted. This article contains very useful information and references, and should therefore NOT be deleted. Persons againt, or critics of the Crime Expo SA article should want to have it deleted because of its value. The title of the article is: "Crime doesn't pay. Or does it?" It was written by Mike Stopforth

http://www.moneyweb.co.za/blogs/mike_stopforth/781476.htm

Sabbotage of this website

There is constant people deleting sections of this article. It appear as if it is people that is opposed to the existance of this website. They want to remove any critical aomments. This article is in need of protection against vandalism.--NdlovuX 23:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Requests for protection go to WP:RFPP, but this article has suffered little or no vandalism so will not be protected. --pgk 23:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Sections of the article is deleted without obtaining consensus on it. Sections written is deleted. Links to references is also being deleted without proper discussion or consensus.--NdlovuX 23:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss your specific issues here. I hope I haven't annoyed you with any of the trims I've done. I think I can justify all the edits I made, but welcome discussion if you disagree with me. --Guinnog 23:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics