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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

User:207.188.29.244

Moved to Talk:Webspace 11:48, 15 August 2006

User:PhoenixPinion

Why was this user indefinitely blocked for a joke which, admittedly was in bad taste, but didn't violate any policy? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps because nobody's thought that we needed a policy that says "Don't claim that other editors are dead, unless it is really obvious to everyone that you are here to write an encyclopedia and simply lapsed in judgement once". Jkelly 23:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well that user whom he claimed was dead has said it was a joke and one he found rather funny. I fail to see what harm has been done to anyone involved in the encyclopedia by this incident. I can understand a short block if Raven had been upset over the joke. But as he wasn't and it didn't violate any policy, indef blocking is overkill here and probably out of line. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not liking the indef block here at all. PhoenixPinion doesn't have much of an editing history, but he has done some OK looking stuff. If User:The_Raven_is_God doesn't have a problem with PhoenixPinion saying he was dead, I think we should treat it as a dumb joke, unblock now, and move on. Unless if there's more backstory that I'm missing. Is there? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not that I can tell. Raven may have even approved of the "claim" he was dead from what I can garner. He too is serving a block from what I can see which should also be lifted. Being the butt of a joke is hardly grounds for a 48 hour block. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It would make sense to take this up with User:Cyde, the blocking admin in both cases. I note that the unblock was denied by User:Shell Kinney. Jkelly 23:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I was just asking him to join us here. (Raven's block has expired, BTW). —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't unblock in this circumstance, because what we are dealing with here is a clique of people who know each other in real life and came on Misplaced Pages to have fun, not write the encyclopedia. --Cyde Weys 23:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about that. I see several productive edits from this user. And it's not like he's either on here often or has a history of disruption. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Somewhere along the way of having fun and not writing the encyclopedia, PhoenixPinion seems to have fallen into our trap of trying to make it inviting and fun to actually write an encyclopedia. Look at this: actual edits that not only include content but also cite sources properly. I feel a little uncomfortable citing WP:BITE, as often as it is bandied about like a weapon, but this is what it is about: we attract people for all sorts of reasons and some of them just might make good editors. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreee with Bunch and Johnny. Recommend the block be lifted. JoshuaZ 23:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I support unblocking--Arktos 23:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Since there does seem to be a good amount of support for an unblock can it be reconsidered? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, he and the other involved users do have a history of disruption and vote stacking (and multiple accounts, at least in the case of User:The Raven and User:The Raven is God), but that doesn't become immediately clear from their contribution history as the hoax articles in question have been deleted. You can check their edits to WP:AFD and related pages, and their edits to each others home pages. But I don't mind that the block is lifted, it was perhaps enough to stop the joking and disruption. Fram 06:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record, yes I did find Phoenixpinion's edits of my page humorous (upon logging in I discovered that I was dead, and of a monitor induced seizure no less!). Seeing as it is his first offense too (at least, his first block), I see absolutely no reason that it should be indefinite. While I wouldnt go so far as to call him a regular contributor to wikipedia, I would say he has made quite a few notable edits in his stay here (much more than me in any case)... which is why I strongly advocate the re-considering of his block (See his talk page). --The Raven is God 01:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've unblocked him. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 01:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

A user has expressed concern over this block. I think I can shed some light on this; Cyde (the blocking admin) and I were in a rather extended dispute for a while. I know Phoenix in real life in a similar way that Raven is God knows him, and I fear that Cyde may have noticed Phoenix's actions and been a bit harsh due to his association with me. (Cyde blocked me for 34 hours for adding myself to a category that was on CfD after I put it through DRV because Cyde closed the previous CfD prematurely.) I don't know if that's really why Cyde did it, but he didn't respond to my inquiries about it so I pretty much let it go, as I assumed that the community would agree to unblock Phoenix. I've pretty much given up on trying to resolve things with Cyde, and as much as I hate to let it just slip by, I don't have the time to do much of anything about his actions. At any rate, that's what I believe happened, as it's unlikely that Cyde would've noticed the edit (since the first one was made weeks before he blocked Phoenix) had I not questioned him about blocking me, the premature CfD closing, etc. syphonbyte _(t|c) 03:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Not "weeks before he blocked Phoenix", but 12 days. And the important thing is not the first edit, but obviously the time since the last edit, which was less than 2 days, and which was the edit that put The Raven is God into the category (before that, it was only a text on his userpage). So your statements are incorrect wrt the timing. Fram 15:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

12 days is very close to 2 weeks, I didn't really check the specific amount of time. I think that the important thing was that the first edit was still 12 days prior to the banning. syphonbyte _(t|c) 22:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

But what has the first edit to do with anything? It is the last one that counts, certainly in this case, as that was the one that added the user wrongly to the category, and was thus the reason for the block. The first edit you are going on about only shows that the "joke" was already old by then, and that PhoenixPinion felt it was necessary to take it one step further for some obscure reason (and in the middle of him being involved in a CfD about an inappropriate user category, which should have made him even more wary). Why do you try to confuse the issue? Fram 19:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I was unaware that users should be "wary" if they have differing opinions, but I suppose I will take this into account from now on so that I'm not indefinitely blocked. The point is that the block was too extreme, people agreed, he's unblocked now, thus the problem is resolved, in my opinion. syphonbyte _(t|c) 18:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Marudubshinki

About three weeks ago Maru was blocked indefinitely by me for a fairly serious BOT useage violation. The incident was discussed here but is now archived. Maru has now requested the block be removed, which I've done, as he's given a promise that he won't do it again. -- I@n 00:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. Reblock if the bot reappears though, I assume. --W.marsh 01:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

This has become a most serious and depressing affair.

Quite a while ago, Maru was blocked indefinitely for continually running an unregistered bot that constantly misbehaved. He unblocked himself, claiming that the bots were shut down, then resumed running his bots that same day.

Some time later he was blocked again, for the same reason, and during the discussion around this later block it was discovered that he had previously unblocked himself on a pretext. He was then warned in the strongest of terms that he must not unblock himself. IIRC, Essjay even threatened an emergency de-sysopping.

As I@n says above, Maru has now promised not to run any unauthorised bots, and requested an unblocking.

However, now things get really sleazy. Maru has just disclosed on his user page that he sometimes uses another account, Rhwawn. Nothing wrong with that, and kudos to him for making it public, except...

He created this account three days after he was blocked, and has made over 700 edits with it. If blatant evasion of a block isn't bad enough, most of Maru's edits through the Rhwawn account are unauthorised bot edits!

This has gone on too long. I am going to apply indefinite blocks to both Maru and Rhwawn, ask Essjay to look into an emergency desysopping, and request a CheckUser.

Snottygobble 01:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Endorse permanently banning Rhwawn as an unauthorized bot account and sockpuppet. Endorse indefinite block (in the sense of to be determined) on Maru. Essjay has not been around for several days so you might want to contact another bureaucrat about the de-sysopping and an arbitrator about the checkuser. Thatcher131 (talk) 01:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If the main account is unblocked, I don't see a (policy) reason to block the sock, if the evasion was in the past. An alternative is arbitration now, but since as far as I know he's promised in good faith to stop the bot then I think we should give him a chance. --W.marsh 02:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

FYI As far as I've been able to gather (from Marudabshinki), he *is* using the pywikipediabot framework, but he's using a manual or semi-auto tool. This is a lot faster than editing the wiki directly, but it's still under manual control. Kim Bruning 01:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't about Maru's bot flag anymore. It is about Misplaced Pages having an admin that

1. Unblocks himself on a pretext
2. Creates socks to avoid blocks
3. Requests unblocking on a pretext

Snottygobble 02:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Endorse block and emergency desysopping. This guy has always struck me as a bit reckless, and he isn't playing by the rules anymore. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 02:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Opinion struck per below. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 02:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Um, like the original block was really dumb? I think the separate account is for when running the bot... (as long as he possibly declared it) , and requesting unblocking is always ok. Granting the request is something else.

I'm not saying that I'm nescesarily right, but it does still seem possible to assume good faith in this instance.

If Marus story is true, then perhaps we could think about desysopping someone else. There's some decent ways to determine the truth though.

We could have an admin or two unblock him, and watch him carefully for a little while. Is that ok? Worst case he messes up, and they can block him again. Kim Bruning 02:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you clarify your "perhaps we could think about desysopping someone else" comment for me? Snottygobble 02:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Um that pretext stuff is pretty assuming bad faith there snotty. Did he evade the block? Yes. Was it stupid? Yes. Is it worth a desysopping? No. He didn't abuse any admin tools this time, just made a sock that did good edits. pschemp | talk 02:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

In the first case, Maru was blocked indefinitely, explicitly told not to unblock himself, and told that he would be unblocked once he agreed not to run an unauthorised bot. He unblocked himself, with edit summary "bot shut down", then started up the bot again the same day. That is unblocking on a pretext; its pretty hard to argue with that. The quality of his subsequent edits have nothing to do with it. Snottygobble 02:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I am inclined to reduce the blocking to maybe a week or less. Others agree? User:Zscout370 02:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocking is a means to protect the wiki. Not a punishment. Unblock right away, but keep an eye on Marudabshinki for a while so everyone stays happy. If he's truely the root of all evil, we can always block him again for good. I have some doubt if that'll happen though. Either way, I'd just like to have a couple of extra pairs of competent eyes on the matter. Kim Bruning 02:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If you guys want an admin running around that unblocks himself, evades blocks by creating sockpuppets, and promises not to run unauthorised bots while running an unauthorised bot through a sock, you go ahead an unblock him. I won't wheel war with you, but I will think your decision is stunningly stupid. Snottygobble 02:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Maru has posted this on his user page; posting here as a courtesy. Snottygobble 02:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say, I strongly disagree with this block. I don't particularly mind you blocking the Rhwawn account, since it was originally for the Board election, and I don't expect to need it again, but blocking my main account for semi-automated disambiguating and de-selflinking edits really cooks my chestnuts. Was I ban avading? Under a strict interpretation, I suppose so. A process wonk could surely argue that this is grounds for a few days or weeks banned, but an indef ban? Look at my edits. THey were good edits. We're supposed to judge by results, not mindlessly follow process; that's what IAR is all about, and we keep it around for a reason. Does de-sysoping, an indef blocking (with an apparent intention of making it truly indefinite and infinite) truly seem proportional to my actual offenses? I've contributed so much good work to Misplaced Pages, and so little bad work; doesn't that merit any consideration when I violate your interpretation of policy in my haste to actually get something done? I'd reply on AN/I, but there seems to be some technical problem. --maru (talk) contribs 02:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, we're having him follow procedure now, and watching him. If he is really being stupid, that's all there is to it. If he's actually being smart and someone else is being stupid, we'll find that out quickly enough too. Kim Bruning 02:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Zscout has unblocked citing "reducing duration to time served". That's a strange basis, considering the block was for running an unauthorised bot, and Maru spent his "time served" running his unauthorised bot through a sock. Honestly, I find this decision absolutely mind-bogglingly incomprehensible. Snottygobble 02:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't really want to be making any more suggestions of my own here but some history might be useful. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive124#User:Marudubshinki running unauthorized robots.

1. He ran a bot account, Bot-maru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), which was blocked as an unauthorized bot, and because it was not assisted and was making mistakes. Rather than go to WP:BRFA, he started running the bot on his main account.
2. He was blocked again because the bot was making mistakes, with the understanding that he could unblock himself if he stopped running the bot. He unblocked himself, and started running the bot again.
3. The bot was deleting pages, using Maru's sysop bit. Quoting Essjay, This is greatly concerning, as the use of bots with admin privs is opposed very strongly on en.wiki (with the possible exception of Curps, though his is not without it's critics, and may or may not still be running) and by the Foundation (an adminbot on another wiki was desysopped by Anthere not too long ago).
4. He was blocked again with instructions not to unblock himself. He did anyway, and started running the bot again.
5. He was blocked a third time and told to stop running the bot. Rather than accept responsibility and seek bot approval at WP:BRFA, he started running the bot on a second account, thereby violating both bot policy and policy against using socks to edit while blocked.

I'll let the rest of you make the decisions. I wonder whether you really expect he will stop running the bot this time, or you just don't care; and I wonder how long he will run it in assisted mode before he turns it loose again; and I wonder if he will lend it his own sysop functions again. But it's not really in my hands. Thatcher131 (talk) 03:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If he runs the bot again without requesting approval first, we will take him out for some ParkingLotTherapy. Basically we're giving him a bit of a last chance, but watching him carefully. We'll soon see if he behaves or not. :-) Kim Bruning 02:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just come back here after an hour off-line and see the sh*t has hit the fan. I'm in total agreement with Snottygobble - I'd thought that his last block was his last chance. Maru must have been awfully close to being de-sysopped after he was exposed for unblocking himself to continue using an unauthorised admin-bot. We now find he was using a sock in order to to evade the block. I'd assumed good faith in unblocking him but clearly that was misguided - Maru was cheating his block all along. He is a loose cannon and has shown ongoing behaviour unbecoming of an administrator. -- I@n 02:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that he should be de-sysoped but not blocked because he makes lots of useful articles. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Based only on the information presented here (having not yet done the research myself) I'd support the dead-minning. - brenneman 04:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the death penalty is the answer here. --Cyde Weys 05:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe take this to a RFC, and/or the ArbCom? If I was an admin, I wouldn't have bots running until I got them authorised.

Marudubshinki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has made good edits, as JarlaxleArtemis said, so I don't think an indefinite block is warranted. --TheM62Manchester 08:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I would support a de-adminship (not an indef block, too harsh) based on evidence presented here too. - Mailer Diablo 08:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't an RFC or ArbCom be a better solution? --TheM62Manchester 09:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure, just that we'll need someone willing to do the filing process. - Mailer Diablo 13:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

A lot of people seem to be saying that an indef block is too harsh. But I haven't heard anyone actually propose an indef block, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against. I hope you people don't think my reinstatement of I@n's block was intended to be a final solution; as I stated on Maru's talk page, I reinstated the block "while we thrash out the implications of you running unauthorised bot edits through an alternative account created to avoid an indefinite block applied for running unauthorised bot edits".

For the record, I also do not think Maru should be blocked indefinitely. But I am firmly opposed to him retaining his sysop flag. Snottygobble 09:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Indef block isn't appropriate given his good contributions, but unless someone is disputing the facts as laid out above, he has clearly abused the admin tools, and thus should not retain them. Just remove the problem and allow the good contributions. Then block later if it becomes becessary. If consensus here isn't enough for a steward to go on to desysop, send it to arbcom. - Taxman 11:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's not rush to any unnecessarily hasty decisions. This isn't dangerous. This isn't an emergency. Bring the case to the ArbComm. De-adminship in non-cut-and-dry situations (i.e. repeatedly unblocking self or deleting the main page) is the role of the ArbComm. He is unblocked. Don't reblock him, please. If you think it's serious enough, bring the case to the Committee. No vigilante justice, thank you very much. Sam Korn 12:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur. ArbCom is appropriate if someone wants to do it. If there are further problems, I'll do it myself. Extra chances are good for minor infractions, but at a certain point we have to assert firmly that admins are as bound by policy as everyone else. -- SCZenz 14:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we should take you up on that. If you're willing to draw up the formalities for ArbCom, let it go there. The alternative is going to be widespread support for a steward taking action anyway. The current situation is clearly not satisfactory, per Snottygobble and others. Metamagician3000 07:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I said I'd do that if there are further problems. Have there been further problems? If not, I need to think and look a little more (and maybe talk to Maru a bit) before initiating a case personally; once started, they're hard to unstart. But if there is a case started by someone else, I'll certainly fill in what I know and let the arbitrators decide. -- SCZenz 03:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

My bad. You did indeed say that. Metamagician3000 07:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

To expand on my earlier comments: I do not think that any amount of quick-poll on this page is sufficient to justify the removal of privledges. Barring the making of a recall proposal into policy, the only (normal) route to do so is through ArbCom. My statement of "support" before was based upon the presumption that a suficient such supports would give someone the stones to request opening an arbitration case. If no one else goes and does it, I'll will:

1. Go and confirm myself the substance of the statements above,
2. Create a scratch version of a request for arbitration in my userspace, and
3. Post a link here to allow it to be "tuned up" or "cast out" by consensus.

Does this sound reasonable?

brenneman 01:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say you should start the case if you think it's warranted. I think the case would be well-justified based on past actions; at the same time, confronting a valuable contributor who may now be turning over a new leaf is probably not good for the encyclopedia. So now you have why I'm not filing the ArbCom case. But, as I said, I don't think we should have an extra community discussion and a hanging committee to present the case to the ArbCom. If you think a case is warranted, just give them the facts and let them take it from there. -- SCZenz 03:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I think a case should be made, in the spirit of SCZenz's "just give them the facts and let them take it from there", but lack the "stones" (whatever that means) to make the case myself. Aaron, if you are willing to take this on, I will be happy to take on share the load of presenting diffs. Snottygobble 06:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

What SCZenz and Aaron want you to do is that if you feel there should be a case against this user, then you should have the balls (that is what "stones" is) to start the processes yourself. If you are not willing to do the case, then there is nothing much we can really do, since we are not going to do the legwork for you. Of course, we will leave comments and stuff when you file the arbcom case, but, to put in simple terms, it's your turn now. The ball is in your court. User:Zscout370 06:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I will. It doesn't take balls; why would it take balls? It just takes time and effort. Snottygobble 11:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Date warring

I am somewhat bothered by the way that SuperJumbo (talk · contribs) seems to have unilaterally decided to reformat dates. As I understand it, there is a longstanding semi-formal agreement that in articles dealing with things outside of the English-speaking world, we don't particularly favor U.S. or Commonwealth style on dates; instead, we wikify and let the software format it to the users' preferences. Hence, edits like these (, ) are at least mildly annoying. Tazmaniacs (talk · contribs) reversion of these (, ) was, of course, almost inevitable; but what I really don't like is what comes next: Superjumbo using popups ( ) to revert. The navigation tools are not intended as utilities for edit warring. - Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Jmabel to be, on the whole, correct (the issue ought, IMHO, for unwikified dates, to be treated as is AE/BE by the MoS, which treatment WP:DATE seems to suggest), but if I'm not crazy almost all of the dates over which edit-warring has occurred here are wikified, such that, for registered users (who necessarily, IIRC, make a date preference election), that which displays will not be affected; aren't most of these edits purposeless? Joe 05:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• This is a non–issue, I'm afraid. Go to your "my preferences" and change your dating format preference from "No preference" (or "15 January 2000") to "January 15, 2000", and all dates that he "re-formatted" will appear as you have selected. His changing of these dates is pointless as any one user can select preference for one of these methods over the other. That's why this preference selection was created. — CRAZY`(lN)`SANE 05:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be a non-issue if and only if people like SuperJumbo didn't unilaterally change dates to match their personal preference. The "preference selection" was designed to prevent such changes by rendering them pointless. No one thought anyone would be so silly as to go on a jihad to convert dates to his "preferred preference" just in order to have non-logged in users see them, but obviously we didn't reckon on how bellicose people can be in insisting you adopt their whims as default. But that is the argument he offered when I objected to him converting all articles relating to Monaco to day-month-year. - Nunh-huh 06:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why it matters. It might be pointless for him to do this, but why would anyone go to the trouble of reverting it? He has wikified so that it will appear as per whatever preference users have adopted. If people don't have accounts or haven't logged in, I don't think they'll suffer greatly if the date appears the way he prefers in the articles he's edited. Or am I missing something here? Metamagician3000 07:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the fact that it's fundamentally disrespectful to insist on having one's own way in what is supposed to be a cooperative or at least collegial editing environment. When you change "color" to "colour" or "haemophilia" to "hemophilia", it annoys people because you are insisting "their" way is wrong and your way is right. It's the same with dates. If it doesn't, or shouldn't, matter, then it shouldn't be changed. You should have the decency to leave de minimus matters alone, and respect other's choices, rather than privileging your own. If you don't, you encourage edit wars, ill-feeling, and distract from the business of writing an encyclopedia. - Nunh-huh 07:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand all that, I guess. I still don't understand why it matters so much, given what the outcome actually is for users of the encyclopedia. If someone changed the way I had the dates (but wikified them properly) I would smile at their relatively harmless idiosyncracy rather than thinking this was terribly important or needed to be dealt with by admins. It seems that any disruption is de minimus. Oh well, maybe another admin will take a greater interest in it. Metamagician3000 08:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

SuperJimbo wikified the dates so that date preferences are enabled. Tazmaniac's blind reversion de-wikified the dates. I agree we shouldn't edit war over which date style is the default, but all dates should have date preferences enabled when possible. —Quarl 2006-08-18 08:16Z

Eh, no SuperJimbo changed, for example, ], ] (November 11, 1942) to ] ] (11 November 1942) — both formats are valid and display dates as per the user preferences. It was a pointless edit. Thanks/wangi 08:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted a good number of his changes and warned him that if he does this again he will be blocked. We have a policy in place that warns against doing this for a very good reason. --Cyde Weys 13:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm coming in late to this discussion, but may I suggest that rather than edit warring, and reverting all of my careful work, people take a moment to read the guidelines laid down in WP:MoS? I'll thank Cyde to go and undo his reverts, and request that in future he discuss before acting against consensus.

I quote from the Manual of Style:

If the topic itself concerns a specific country, editors may choose to use the date format used in that country. This is useful even if the dates are linked, because new users and users without a Misplaced Pages account do not have any date preferences set, and so they see whatever format was typed. For topics concerning the UK, Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, most member states of the Commonwealth of Nations, and most international organizations such as the United Nations, the formatting is usually ] ] (no comma and no "th"). In the United States and Canada, it is ], ]. Elsewhere, either format is acceptable. See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#National varieties of English for more guidance.

Using this as a guide, I suggest that Cyde's changes to the King Edward VIII article were insufficiently considered, to be polite. --Jumbo 22:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, can you promise to confine yourself to topics that clearly relate to the UK, etc., and to UN agencies? Maybe you're already doing this, but that's not clear to me. You should give that undertaking and stick to it. I think that talk of blocking is overreacting as long as your activities are so confined. I still think is all a bit of storm in a teacup, but I suppose what you're doing could be irritating if it's not clearly confined to appropriate articles. Metamagician3000 22:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

My actions have been in accordance with the Manual of Style throughout. Jtdirl, an expert on style, and familiar with the precise history of dating conventions in Misplaced Pages, has seen fit to comment on several occasions:

• On my talk page
• On Nunh-hunh's talk page
• On the talk page for Prince Rainier III

I would appreciate it if participants in this discussion would familiarise themselves with the consensus guidelines before commenting and proffering advice. --Jumbo 23:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Clearly your interpretation of the MOS is at odds with others equally "expert". You have no consensus to make the changes you are making and have resisted suggestions that you actually try to build one. Why don't you just stop, and do so, instead of becoming a Wikilawyer? - Nunh-huh 23:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Your assertion may be clear to you, but I beg your indulgence in asking for further clarification. Who is it that offers both a dissenting view to jtdirl and shares his wealth of experience and knowledge on the subject? For my part, I act only in accordance with established policy and guidelines, and if you have a different view, I ask that you take it up with those who set the guidelines after years of diligent and detailed discussion. In particular, please do not make changes such as this recent one to Louis Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven. WP:MoS explicitly directs that articles on British subjects use International Dating. --Jumbo 00:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much everyone who's raised the issue with is every bit as qualified as jtdirl to opine on the subject. You seem to equate "agrees with me" with "is an expert". No, you are not acting within guidelines, and MoS does not "direct" British dates. - Nunh-huh 00:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I reject your assumption that experts are those who agree with me. This is not the case. Jtdirl and I have disagreed on other matters, but I find it hard to understand how anybody could discount his years of participation in styles and formats. His knowledge and advice are of immense value in this discussion.

Your comment about the MoS likewise turns out not to be the case when we examine the relevant section:

If the topic itself concerns a specific country, editors may choose to use the date format used in that country. This is useful even if the dates are linked, because new users and users without a Misplaced Pages account do not have any date preferences set, and so they see whatever format was typed. For topics concerning the UK, Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, most member states of the Commonwealth of Nations, and most international organizations such as the United Nations, the formatting is usually ] ] (no comma and no "th"). In the United States and Canada, it is ], ]. Elsewhere, either format is acceptable. See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#National varieties of English for more guidance.

In view ofthe above, may I ask you again why you are choosing to insert American format dates into an explicitly British article? And how many times need I quote the MoS before you accept that this document means what it says? You are not being helpful in your contributions. --01:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, let's see. If you quote the same thing 1,000 times, and I've told you I've disagreed with your interpretation of it, why would your repetition persuade me that your interpretation of it is correct. The simple fact is that the last time there were rampant date jihadists such as yourself, the compromise that allowed productive editing to resume was to link dates and invoke preferences rather than having people unilaterally change them. You now want to nullify that compromise. That's not a good way to procede. - Nunh-huh 01:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions so far, insomuch as they reveal your position. I am asking you to correct your edits to Louis Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven, as WP:MoS explicitly directs that articles on British subjects use International Dating. --Jumbo 02:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've been asking you to stop your jihad, inasmuch as it's not authorized by any policy, and is antithetically opposed to the basic compromise on dates. So apparently asking isn't enough. - Nunh-huh 03:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This issue erupted in a major edit war some time ago. We agreed on a simple solution.

• Set preferences to choose whether one wanted to read International Dating dd/mm/yyyy or American Dating mm/dd/yyyy.

However as one has to have a WP account to set preferences, it was also agreed to apply another two simple rules:

• If a country uses either ID or AD predominantly, articles should be written in it.
• Where they don't, go by the initial choice made by the initial editor.

That was placed in the MoS through the giving of some examples of countries that use ID. The list in the MoS was never intended to be the only countries. If it was then users of ID would never have agreed to the compromise. It was always intended to be an example.

So when anyone of us edits and American article we always use American Dating (in fact for many international editors of WP it is probably the only time in their lives when they ever write dates in the month/day format as most of the planet use day/month, hence its name, International Dating). I have got into edit wars on American pages stopping users from replacing American Dating on American pages with International Dating.

The same is also true. All SuperJumbo has been doing is applying that rule. He has not been blanket changing dates. He has been

• ensuring that dates on British topics all follow ID rather than, as is the case a lot of the time, being a mishmash of both;
• fixing other articles so that all the date structures are the same, whether ID or AD;
• ensuring that date usage on WP reflects national usage in the country being written about. Many of the articles he has been working on lately have been French ones. France does not use American Dating, and it is as offensive for French people to have their articles written in American Dating (and spelling) as it is for Americans to have their articles written in International Dating and International English.

Cyde, as usual, bungled in to the process with his usual sledgehammer approach and blanket reverted SuperJumbo's corrections, insisting that

• a British topic like Edward VIII of the United Kingdom be a mishmash of International and American Dating, with sometimes both formats used in the one sentence
• an Irish topic like Bono be in American Dating even though Ireland does not use American Dating and Irish users on WP get extremely pissed off when Americans on WP keep converting articles to follow American Dating.

Rather than accuse Cyde of vandalism for forcing messes onto articles all over the place, perhaps the most charitable thing that could be said was that, as he does sometimes, he screwed up. International Dating users are however at this stage getting a bit fed up with some (and it is only a small number) of American users consistently trying to force a format of dating on country articles where that country never uses AD. ID users have been more than willing to ensure that countries that use AD have AD in them, and to revert any changes from AD. It would be nice if AD users showed the same willingness to accept that, as was the agreement that stopped the last major edit war on dating, some countries use ID, some AD and the articles on topics from each country should reflect usage.

The reality is simple:

• the US uses AD.
• Most of the Commonwealth of Nations uses ID.
• Most of Europe uses ID.

I don't know what various countries in South America and Africa use.

Maybe we should simply compile a list of countries and set down explicitly what dating should be used for each. We could establish a project on dates. That might be the solution. But in the meantime, SuperJumbo is perfectly correct to adjust European topics to ID, American topics to AD, and where a mishmash occurs in articles to fix it. FearÉIREANN\ 00:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Two things:

1. The MoS guideline as it stands quite clearly refers to the English-speaking world. Elsewhere, either should be acceptable, just as articles may be in U.S. or Commonwealth English. Although countries outside the English-speaking world each have their own date preferences, we do not normally apply those. To follow that logic, we would have to give dates in Hungarian-related articles in the form 2006-8-20.
2. No one has addressed my remark about using "popups" as an edit-warring tool. - Jmabel | Talk 22:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Which he apparently continues to do. - Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The behaviour I'm seeing here by SuperJumbo is simply unacceptable. Now he's revert-warring over dates on dozens of articles using a JavaScript tool. Regardless of whether or not his date format changing is acceptable, what he's doing now clearly isn't. I would suggest someone do something to reign him in here, as my hands are tied in this issue. --Cyde Weys 19:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

All he is doing is applying standard dates to the relevant articles. In doing that he is my full support and the full support of many others. The fact that Jmabel refers to something he calls Commonwealth English when we are actually dealing with international dating, is indicative of the nonsensical nature of the attacks being made on SuperJumbo. He is simply applying what we all do, and all will continue to do, applying International Dating to topics in areas where it is relevant, and applying American Dating to topics where it is relevant. I have fought edit wars to stop ID users from changing articles on American topics to ID dating and International English. American users deserve the respect of users in terms of their choice of language. I and others will continue to do similarly with ID articles out of respect for people in other countries who use ID and IE and who take offence when American language, spelling and dating is forced onto topics about countries that never ever use AD and AE. Superjumbo has asked opinions and consulted. Those who are attacking him rarely have. Cyde, bizarrely, reverted the correct usage of ID and IE on an article about an British king, imposing American dating onto the article. And he sought to force an article about an Irish rock band to keep American dating. It was ridiculous. If his hands are tied on the issue, it is about time. FearÉIREANN\ 20:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The more I read about this issue the less I see a problem with what SuperJumbo is doing. Metamagician3000 23:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the above comments. At every stage I have sought to inform myself on what is a surprisingly complex subject, one with a long history and an outcome that represents a triumph of consensus and co-operation in both the technical and editorial sides of the project. I have sought consultation and availed myself of the relevant authorities in the MoS.

I am rather disappointed with the behaviour of Cyde, who reverted a swag of my careful changes and then when I pointed out the relevant guidelines I was following, declined to undo his reverts, meaning that I had to do so. Calling this "edit warring" is a little rich. I would have thought that at the very least he would have been pleased to undo his changes to articles on British royalty, which had the effect of inserting a mish-mash of date formats, many of them unlinked, many of them in American Dating format. At one point he even removed my comments to a third party on my own talk page. However, I imagine that Cyde is a busy person, and was merely working with best speed to correct what he thought were errors.

I have been rigorously correcting date formats as appropriate, as may be seen from my contributions. Some American articles were using International Dating, and I have corrected them, though I must say that such examples are few. It is far more common to find articles on subjects from countries that use International Dating that have American Dating applied. For every incorrectly formated date in an article on a U.S. president, I will find dozens in articles on British kings and queens. I thank all parties for their input into this discussion and hope that we can amicably proceed to the greater good of the project. --Jumbo 01:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:SuperJumbo appears to just be deliberately being an ass about this, also. Consider this edit, for example, where his edit summary says "rationalise dates to International Dating for non-American article".

However, what has he actually changed in this article?

1. Changed ], ] (21 April, 1958) to ] ] (21 April 1958)

• The original usage is a British peculiarity, not American
• The change has no effect on what the reader sees even if preferences are not set.

2. Wikilinked ] ] in two more appearances where it wasn't linked (and didn't have a comma in the middle).

• Again, there wasn't any "American" usage as implied by his edit summary.
• If you take the time to check, these were probably linked at one time and unlinked as unnecessary duplicates by someone who didn't understand the date preferences purpose.

3. changed "18th June 2006," to "] ], and similarly for 23rd June 2006

• Once again, it was a British usage peculiarity he was internationalizing, not American usage.

So why the gratuitous nastiness and America-bashing in the edit summary? Gene Nygaard 02:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I do beg your pardon! When I get to the edit summary part of the edit, I have a little drop down box with various previous summaries in them. I just pick the easiest one out of the list, and I do recall thinking for one of them, hmmmm, was there anything American about that last lot? But I didn't think anybody would care too much or go reading too much into it. My apologies!

My understanding, and I'm willing to stand corrected on this, is that the comma in the middle of dates is a distinctly American thing, and thus inappropriate for International Dating. I've taken several approaches to commas in wikidates previously, and my understanding is that they are superfluous. If an editor has date prefs set to AD, then the comma is inserted regardless of whether it appears in the source. Contrarywise, if prefs are set to ID, then the comma is suppressed if it appears in the text. OTOH, if a reader has no date prefs set, then the comma is only displayed if the original date is in American format, regardless of whether there is a comma in the source or not.

Removing commas from wikidates is therefore a saving in space. Only one character per date, to be sure, but the nitpicker in me rejoices at the elimination of redundancy.

As for being an ass, this happens from time to time, but not deliberately so! If there was any nastiness or "America-bashing", then it was inferred, rather than implied, and I once again welcome the opportunity to express my admiration and respect for this great nation, the first of the modern democracies. --03:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This conversation has been going on a long time, and no-one has managed to show any policy violation by Jumbo. On the contrary, Jumbo's edits precisely follow the MOS. Apparently this date warring issue has got everyone so touchy that we've started attacking people who are part of the solution not the problem. Jumbo should be congratulated for staying cool and civil through all this; everyone else should move along and let Jumbo get on with his job. Snottygobble 03:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't rely on an undocumented bug/feature that could be changed in the future, just to save a single character. There is another problem of date links not working properly with the commas if you use things like ], ] (February 30, 1712), but that's a another bug related to the silliness of using wikilinks to effect these preferences in the first place. Gene Nygaard 15:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comments earlier are demonstrably wrong.

• Removing the comma is correct. International dating does not use a comma. American dating sometimes does. Misplaced Pages policy is not to use it.
• It is Misplaced Pages policy to remove th and to wikilist dates. He removed the th and wikilinked a date. Given that one of the benefits of doing that is to allow Americans who have set their preferences to see the date in American dating, rather than in International Dating, if they chose.

There, as in all the other points, SuperJumbo is acting strictly in accordance with the MoS. I echo Snottygobble's words. "Jumbo's edits precisely follow the MOS. Apparently this date warring issue has got everyone so touchy that we've started attacking people who are part of the solution not the problem. Jumbo should be congratulated for staying cool and civil through all this; everyone else should move along and let Jumbo get on with his job." Now leave Jumbo alone. FearÉIREANN\ 15:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of admin powers

User:Caltrop blocked me for breaking the 3R rule during a dispute he was having with me at T-4 Euthanasia Program. Possibly I was in breach of 3R (I wasn't counting), but if I was, so was he. Furthermore, I had explained my reversion at the Talk page, to which he replied only with juvenile and ad hominem comments and made no attempt to engage with the issue. Finally I consider it most inappropriate for an admin to block an editor in a dispute to which they themselves are a party, and indeed largely initiated. I request that Caltrop be formally warned not to abuse his admin powers in this way. This is the first time in three years of editing that I have had occasion to complain about an admin. Adam 15:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was a mistake on his part and you were unblocked because of it - but - is highly innapropriate for you to say after you were unblocked. I would suggest that you remove that, as it serves no purpose other than to taunt him and rub the issue in his face (not to mention the header, which in itself is extremely incivil). Thank you. Cowman109 15:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I dare say. I have removed it. I don't deny I am very angry at this kind of stupid behaviour at an article on such a topic. Adam 15:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. It might be a good idea to ask for third opinions from the village pump if you need help with the issues on that page. Cowman109 15:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no need for advice on the article itself. It's a lousy article and I intend rewriting it. What I needed help with was an abuse of admin powers. Since Caltrop has apologised I won't pursue this matter, but I still think he should not be an admin. Adam 01:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think advice would be welcome on this article. There are a lot of strong feelings here, a lot of "It must be my way or no way." I have asked for a RfC and welcome some external opinions at T-4 Euthanasia Program. Ifnord 18:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Review of block requested

MONGO suddenly blocked a user with no apparent bad edits, indefinitely, and blocked his user page. The user is User:Weevlos. His contribs. He apparently suspects that this user spammed admins (but there is no apparent proof of this), and that page of template information was actually on dozens of pages all over Misplaced Pages during MONGO's conflict with an outside website. MONGO also protected this user's talk page so that he could not request a review, seen here. Would someone be willing to review this? This user appears to have done nothing to warrant this. Thank you. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.172.234.92 (talk • contribs) 2006-08-18T13:16:36 (UTC)

Having examined a couple of the users edits, I see behaviour warranting a block. Not having examined all the edits, I will trust MONGO over an anon IP that the indefinite block was appropriate. -- JamesTeterenko 20:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The last edit was pretty much libel, so MONGO was right to block for it. User:Zscout370 21:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, the last edit, IMHO, was in no way libellous (at least as regards United States law), even as it may have expressed a value judgment with which some of us might disagree; this doesn't, of course, speak to the broader issue, but it is useful for us to take care that we not use libel too broadly, if only because, in the context of mainspace, such broad use sometimes serves unnecessarily to temper contributions... Joe 22:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The evidence is at User:Weevlos/Compiling Evidence which MONGO deleted at 09:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC) with the reason "(same subpage used to email spam hndreds of admins a month ago)". Only another admin can see what it says. MONGO probably had a very good reason to react the way he did after reading that page. --  Netsnipe    21:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

But other than that single page (I'll take your word that it existed and wasn't just a typical rfc/rfar note-taking page), what else makes for a permanent ban based on the judgement of a single admin? I looked at the last two months of contribs, and they all seemed like good reliable edits - the majority of which are in article space, aren't vandalism, look sourced, etc. Based on what I can see as a non-admin, a permanent ban of a good editor based on one user sub-page seems way overblown. SchmuckyTheCat 22:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry Schmucky...all the encyclopedia dramatica trolls can always pull it from their pages at their website and use it once again to spam hundreds of admins about my "abuse"...interesting that you noticed.--MONGO 22:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Just for what it is worth, do we have any evidence or proof beyond the one off color edit on AN/I from this user that he violated any policy? rootology (T) 22:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been spammed with the content of that page repeatedly; I'm glad MONGO ferreted out who it was and I support the block. Its too bad this editor had contributed productively in the past, but unfortunately, he let himself get so involved in one article that he went bananas. Shell 22:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought somebody else had been singled out already for sending the spam? I don't know or care why this user had the page (and I can't see the contents of deleted pages) but I don't see any evidence this person was sending the spam. SchmuckyTheCat 22:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

As Schmucky said, someone was previously banned for that spam. That content during the MONGO/ED fiasco was on many archived pages, on many users, even an admin's page, as seen here. Is there evidence that this user did this spamming? rootology (T) 22:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Both rootlogy and Schmucky are encyclopedia dramatica editors. Rootology as of late has spent most of his time wikistalking several admins and also trying to figure out other ways to harass Misplaced Pages and Wikipedians...albeit in a "gentlemanly manner". --MONGO 22:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

MONGO, you have made such accusations in the past. Please proove them, file an RfC, or ArbCom, or please stop harassing me. If you look at my contribs, I do nothing of the sort. rootology (T) 22:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Can an admin at least unprotect this person's talk page so that he can speak for himself? rootology (T) 22:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

People are blocked all the time...interesting that you find this situation interesting.--MONGO 23:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've known this person for several years BEFORE I was ever on Misplaced Pages, from various online IT and computer science/research circles, and I had his page as someone I've known on my watchlist (same as ANI). I was amazed when I saw he was blocked, since I know this person DOESN'T do anything of the sort. What evidence/proof/policy violation did he do that warrants a one-person initiated indef ban? rootology (T) 23:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

He should have thought twice about his last comment and about using his userspace to post the same harassment information that was used to spam hundreds of editors, both via email and on their talk pages, as well as in the admin noticeboard areas. Tony Sidaway has also commented about your direction here at Misplaced Pages...I don't think you're fooling anyone.--MONGO 23:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Tony has been working with me rather civilly on a policy proposal, so I have no idea where you're going with that. As to "harassing" information on his userspace, please look at my above link--an admin had it on his user page for months, and it was on many other's pages after it was mailed by someone to a zillion people. Will an admin review how long that page has been idle before it was deleted? I'd venture that it was idle since around the time of the mass mailing. Will you please let me know what policy this user has violated, and why he cannot have his talk page unlocked so that the blocking can be reviewed? As for that last comment about Nathan in the history, I'd politely point out that in the past two weeks a lot of people have said inappropriate things about that user (I could care less why, I'm not involved), and I didn't see any mass bans over that. rootology (T) 23:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that policy proposal to make it easier for you to get MONGO stripped of his adminship. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, that was also the spam emailed out to many administrators about a month ago. -- Natalya 22:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I would encourage all of my fellow admins to ignore Rootology, he has no credibility on this issue. He is involved with the same website (Encyclopedia Dramatica) as the trolls who were spamming this subpage. So of course he's going to come to their defense, and of course it's going to be a meaningless one. --Cyde Weys 23:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

They have a page attacking ME on there. What on Earth are you talking about? What evidence is there that this person did the spam that he's being blocked for? rootology (T) 23:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to take my own advice here. La dee da dee da ... Cyde Weys 23:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Rootology is in no way involved with ED. As for the spam that occured a month ago, refer to this. The user that was blocked recently had nothing to do with the spamming of administrator's email acounts. Quite simply, he was blocked because MONGO doesn't like ED. Let's be honest with each other here, k? --Daisy Craft 23:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say they have a problem with me...I must be doing something right around here.--MONGO 05:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Why yes, of course. Being <personal attack removed> is a desirable trait on Misplaced Pages. I have little respect for people like you who run around with the attitude "I'm right because I can ban you". No, you're still wrong. Silencing dissent doesn't suddenly make the dissenting viewpoint irrelevant, although I understand that it certainly is preferable for the cult to ignore dissent. I do have great respect for sysops like Can't Sleep, Clown Will Eat Me and Wiki Alf, because they don't throw their weight around. Rather, they work on improving the encyclopedia, and although they do deal with vandals firmly, they also treat them with civility and respect. Respect is a concept foreign to people like you, Cyde, and Kelly Martin. As long as people like you remain so full of themselves that they chuck out any semblance of respect for others, Misplaced Pages is doomed to failure. It seems that anyone who doesn't agree with the Elite is branded as a "troll" and eventually banned. Dispute resolution is one of the biggest oxymorons in this encyclopedia - dispute resolution consists of banning or censuring the user whose viewpoints are unpopular with the elite. Must... ban... anyone... who posts to Misplaced Pages Review. Must... ban... anyone... who edits Encyclopedia Dramatica. Trolls, the lot of them! Time for a nice, cold glass of Kool-Aid. --72.160.83.128 06:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC

Seriously though, you ban and threaten users for no reason than that you don't agree with what they have to say. That, my friend, is a problem. --72.160.83.128 06:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur. 85.70.5.66 08:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Blue ardvark...you are a troll..that is why you're banned. You have nothing to offer Misplaced Pages except disruption so troll on off.--MONGO 08:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Gawd, at least spell my psuedonym right. "Blu Aardvark". I am banned because the Arbitration Committee doesn't understand the meaning of the word "arbitrate". I have plenty to contribute, but really don't see the point. As I said, being elitist towards users, not offering any degree of respect to contributors, and blindly labelling people "trolls" is a damned good way to make abusive users. --72.160.83.128 09:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I second that. 85.70.5.66 09:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess my friend is not going to get to at least see the evidence of his alleged spamming that he was blocked for, or the policy violation he allegedly violated, as no one will answer a question for the same. rootology (T) 00:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• This long ago stopped being about the issues. The only thing that matters anymore is the personalities involved in the discussion. SchmuckyTheCat 07:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• To answer rootology's questions, the page was created in one giant edit on July 19th, and deleted on August 18th. It's the same content that was spammed to me and a ton of other people (admins?) in mid-July. The block is probably warranted, but I'd really appreciate it if someone would assume good faith to rootology; there's a real lack of that these days. Thanks. Grandmasterka 05:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User Jayjg

The recent edits of Jayjg (talk · contribs) need to be looked at. Today, he's really on a POV tear with regard to Israel-related articles. All these edits are dated today, August 18th.

• Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America - removed criticism of CAMERA by Nuclear Spin.
• Honest Reporting - removed links to criticism and to related organizations.
• International Academic Friends of Israel - removed links to related organizations
• Chris McGreal - changed "several pro-Israel media watchdog organizations" to "several media watchdog organizations". (Jayjg puts substantial and ongoing effort into making McGreal look bad; see his edits.)
• Engage (organization) - removed "See also" links to similar organizations

The overall effect of these edits is to make various controversial pro-Israel organizations appear as neutral in Misplaced Pages. There really isn't much doubt that these organizations are pro-Israel; even the Israeli media admit it, and appropriate cites are in the articles, although it may be necessary to go back in the article history to find them after Jayjg's deletions.

Jayjg (and some others) have previously removed material that makes Israel looks bad when it wasn't properly cited. I accept that. But now he's escalated to removing material that is properly cited. That's a serious POV issue.

Jayjg has previously refused communication (see deletion of message from talk page ) and refused informal mediation.(Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-08-03_Mosaic:_World_News_from_the_Middle_East) Jayjg is also involved in the messy arbitration proceeding (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid), but that's in the voting phase and voting is tending towards an amnesty, so we can't add these actions to it. So I'd like to ask for a 24-hour block on Jayjg, permission to revert the above listed changes, and formal mediation. Thanks. --John Nagle 03:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be obvious to anyone who looks at these instances that they are nothing more than content disputes. I really can't see how John Nagle could think it is appropriate to block someone merely for disagreeing with him on a few articles. There is nothing that Jayjg did that is a clear violation of policy, or even an abstract violation of policy for that matter.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a straightforward content dispute. There are no policy violations and if John wants formal mediation, this isn't the place to request it. John, when I last checked out some of these pages, I recall you were engaged in an attempt to draw links between people and groups that struck me as original research. I don't know whether that continues, but looking briefly at some of Jay's edits, that may have been what he was resisting. SlimVirgin 06:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's a content dispute, but it's here because Jayjg is an admin and involved in an ArbComm proceeding. As part of the current arbitration, we currently have the proposed remedy, with six ArbComm votes, Humus sapiens, ChrisO, Kim van der Linde, SlimVirgin, and Jayjg are reminded to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur. (Ref: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid/Proposed decision). I'd appreciate it if an admin who does not normally edit on Israel issues would look at this. Meanwhile, I'm trying to fix some of Jayjg's edits, dealing with his objections by using the "cited to death" style we now have to use in such articles and using cited direct quotes whenever possible. --John Nagle 17:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Three editors have now commented, and agree that this is an inappropriate complaint, because it's a regular content dispute. If you want mediation, by all means request it. Bear in mind, too, that edits can violate OR or be otherwise inappropriate even when cited. SlimVirgin 17:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the edits; to my mind Jayjg's edits improved the quality and neutrality of the articles. There's nothing to see here, move along please... Just zis Guy you know? 17:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• There's nothing here that calls even remotely for a block or anything resembling one. This is what article talk pages and article RFCs are for. Asking for a block for content disputes such as this demonstrates a misunderstanding of how consensus is achieved on Misplaced Pages. --jpgordon 17:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• John Nagle, the specific arbitration page, as well as 3rd opinion, RfC, and Mediation are that-a-way. El_C 18:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

John, it seems more reasonable to block you for consistent conspiracy-mongering and violations of WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a muck-racking magazine, and you are supposed to be a neutral editor, not a crusading journalist. And by the way, your distortions about my actions match your consistent distortions in articles themselves. I haven't "refused communication"; as my Talk: page makes clear, if you want to discuss article content, do it on the related article content pages. Article content discussions are not personal communications. Also, I didn't refuse mediation, I just refused it from the self-appointed "Mediation Cabal" (which, in my experience, is singularly incompetent), and suggested you approach the Mediation Committee instead. Jayjg 02:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I'm unblocking User:Panairjdde

I've been exchanging email with this user (whom you may remember I originally blocked), & he has admitted that he behaved badly & asked to be unblocked. In his own words:

Exactly. Just to be more clear, I'll rewrite those points:

1) I agree that my way of "promoting" my POV on the redundant AD issue was not correct, and against WP rules

2) I agree that my behaviour regarding the sockpuppets issue was uncorrect, and against WP rules

3) I shall not behave again as in 1 and 2, and abide to WP rules, avoiding any disruption

The whole point of blocking a user is not to punish, but to attempt to get that user to stop the troublesome behavior. Panairjdde has convinced me that he will stop being disruptive, so I'm unblocking his account. Further -- & not least importantly -- he has been blocked from Misplaced Pages for far longer than his original misdeed -- being disruptive -- called for.

Note: He has indicated to me that his original username was marred by a typo when he created it, so he may use another account (Panarjedde) instead. I have also unblocked that account for that reason.

If you have any questions or concerns about my act, please contact me offline. Until this recent event, he has always seemed to me a constructive member of the project. I would like to give Panairjdde a chance at a clean start. -- llywrch 05:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Not an admin here, and haven't looked in depth at this. However if what the user states above with his acknowledgement of misdeeds and promise to avoid such in the future is sincere, I say unblock and let him roam wiki and become a great asset. To repeat my disclaimer though, if there are other things that are the root of the problems, ignore my comment. Arkon 18:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me to unblock him if he's agreed to learn from what happened and not to repeat it. --Guinnog 11:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur. -- Avi 00:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Perceived personal attacks by MONGO toward me.

Hello, would anyone be willing to review this? I have twice removed this personal attack, and MONGO has twice now put it back in place, despite my repeatedly asking him to either proove this or simply leave me alone and stop saying it. Often when I post now on various sections in the Misplaced Pages namespace he appears, and begins saying things like this. To me this is a personal attack, as I am not Wikistalking any admin, and any effort of my asking him to demonstrate this is simply met by "stop doing it". If I knew what exactly I was doing I'd be happy to stop that entailed wikistalking a given admin (which I'm not). MONGO also left a message on my talk page, notifying me I will be blocked if I "alter" his comments.

Never alter my comments...you will be blocked from editing if this happens one more time.--MONGO 06:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I am reposting this here as there is no policy against reposting comments in this fashion. I feel the comments he has twice restored are a violation of WP:NPA, because he keeps doing it, but when asked to demonstrate what I'm doing that he considers wikistalking, he never will. Again, if another admin could review this--I really would rather be free to edit the encyclopedia without having MONGO staring over my shoulder, accusing me of shadow policy violations that apparently cannot be explained to me for some reason. Please review my contributions. If I'm apparently wikistalking someone, I cannot see it. I would also appreciate some clarification from other admins if it is against policy to remove messages or content of this nature. I am basing my removal on WP:NPA and Misplaced Pages:Remove personal attacks.

Tony Sidaway and other admins I have seen routinely make use of this, to remove comments that they themselves feel are of an attacking nature, and I feel I was within my bounds to do so. I am completely perplexed by this, as I've been collegially working with other admins, Tony included, on a policy proposal over the past week (and Tony is one of the ones he accused me of wikistalking on the talk page of the recent Kelly Martin RfC). I am starting to feel as if it is simply retribution as I voiced support opposite to his personal wishes previously in an AfD that he was eager to see closed off. Given the conflict of interest, I ask that MONGO not edit my comments here in any fashion so that other administrators may review them. rootology (T) 06:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

What was the need to make criticisms of fellow admins on a third party's talk page? There are times and places to make constructive, or even moderately robust, criticisms of actions by other admins; there are other times and places where collegiality and discretion should prevail. From a quick look, I think that MONGO shows a pretty good sense of which is which. Sorry I can't help you. Metamagician3000 06:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Looking at my User Talk contributions, I assume you mean this comment on Samuel Blanning's page? This was during the full absurd heat of the Kelly Martin RfC. I left a completely perplexed response on the conversation to Tony Sidaway there. I had been speaking with him extensively on the RfC, and both our tempers (Tony's and mine) had gotten it appeared a bit frayed. I did not "stalk" anyone there, as Sam's talk page was on my watchlist from a previous conversation I had with him. I was talking with Aaron Brenneman here, and I noted that Cyde had successfully agitated me during the course of working on a policy proposal at WP:RECALL by summarily dismissing my ideas during normal conversation. However, if you look through the comments and talk there (the exchange in question is now in one of the archives), on that proposal, I'd been civilly and collegially working with the very admin I'd been supposedly stalking, and many others. If this isn't what you're referring to I'm a bit lost, and I still don't see where or how I am wikistalking anyone which is my big concern and the basis of MONOG's attack on me. I should also point out that I'm taking MONGO's comments as an attack, as wikistalking is a bannable offense, and his unfounded allegations are to be honest troubling me. I think his allegations might be based on the fact that I tend to edit some articles related to politcal topics which he might be interested in, I don't know. rootology (T) 07:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

MONGO's statement is a personal attack. And I don't see MONGO providing any evidence of your alleged "wikistalking" or "dramatica". And then MONGO's revert removed your statement which was entirely a valid request for diffs. --HResearcher 07:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Not a personal attack, simply an observation. Rootology is disruptive and has been following myself and a number of other admins around, just as I stated.--MONGO 08:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Would you care to finally demonstrate for for me where and how I'm following you and the admins around, including diffs, beyond my one comment on Sam's page that was already on my watchlist from a previous conversation? If not, I ask you officially to stop making these incorrect statements about me in different venues, and the same for the ED stuff. If you have no proof, please stop. rootology (T) 16:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, I strongly resent the fact you keep calling me disruptive. I'm no more vocal and outspoken (actually much less so, in some cases, and more polite in virtually all cases) than yourself, Ryan, and Cyde, the other admins who have also made that statement. I know you three disagree with my views, but labeling people as disruptive for being unafraid to disagree with an admin politely and vocally is rather funny. rootology (T) 17:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The harrassment comment is making a strong statement, but overall, I see no personal attack in what MONGO has written. ANI is a place where we speak freely, and if you bring forward cases, you should expect them to be discussed in this spirit. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 11:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. rootology (T) 16:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Neither of the statements that MONGO made were personal attacks. The statement that rootology is an ED editor is, iirc, something that rootology has stated in the past. Anyway, it's a simple factual statement, not an attack. Either it's accurate, or it's inaccurate. If you consider it to be damaging to have that information released, that's another matter, but it isn't a personal attack. As for harrassing people - that isn't a statement about who r. is, that's a statement about her/his actions. As such, it isn't a personal attack. Guettarda 14:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I never said I was anywhere on Misplaced Pages, I don't know where you're getting that. For the harassment and wikistalking, which is a blockable offense, I can then begin saying on various talk and wikipedia name space pages that MONGO or Guettarda is wikistalking me? Without any proof? I've asked MONGO to repeatedly demonstrate this with evidence or stop, but he has refused. Does that seem fair or right? Would I get a free pass as he has to make similar false comments? rootology (T) 16:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this has happened to me to, both by MONGO and by another admin. It comes down to a matter of intent; are these threats/accusations sincere, or are they just designed to intimidate and/or insult? An editor of any sort, especially admins, the "Face" of Misplaced Pages, who was making a good faith effort to halt a disruptive editors behavior would provide diffs, reasoning etc. so as to show that they are right and to cut off possible trolling by said editor (who would no longer have the "he's not telling me what I'm doing wrong" excuse). Then, if that editor were being disruptive unintentionally or without really realizing it/ admitting it to themself or whatever, that editor could review what is disruptive or harassment and could stop. Is an editor who gives out warning but is not only negligent, but unwilling to demonstrate what they are talking about, acting to help stave off disruption, or are they acting to insult or browbeat someone? (By the way, I check the ANI about once or twice a week lol) Karwynn (talk) 00:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

RPA is a bad idea, and NPA is a bad idea, too

• This is just more evidence of what a rotten idea these two proposals are. We now have to spend our time getting out the scales and putting this comment in one pan and our own personal "insult" weight in the other and try to agree (or, much worse, leave it to the individual receiving the comments) that something is or isn't a personal attack. We have to spend our time doing this instead of resolving the dispute or concentrating on the question behind the curtain: is this disruption or disagreement? What a ridiculous pursuit!
• Then we get to RPA -- a "semi-policy" drafted by someone who wanted counter-arguments to disappear and who wanted accusations to go away. Oh, we'll keep garbage in an article history eternally. We'll keep vandalism in the history forever. However, the delicate flowers among our administrative ranks should be able to hide and annihilate something that is personally ill fitting? To hell with that. More to the point, we grind to a halt again while we try to consider "was that an insult bad enough to remove? should it have been just removed or archived?" What a ridiculous idea! This is what trolls do: they get sites to talk about themselves instead of whatever their function had been. They make things grind to a halt. Well, that's what these two things do.
• If there is a question of disruption, let's bring it up. If there is a need for mediation, let's get it going. If there is a need for an RFC, then let's kick start it. Let's not navel gaze and try to fix the mercury of insults. Geogre 12:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think NPA is a good idea, we should all be civil to each other. Editing comments of other users is a really really bad idea in almost any case, tho, and so is RPA. Otherwise, I totally agree with everything you said. --Conti|✉ 14:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't want to appear to even hint that I'm even suggesting a hint that I support incivility. It's just that codifying in the way we sort-of have is distracting from actually patrolling and considering and acting on those cases where we have disruption. I have a tendency to use ink horn terms and be "eloquent." Now, I can say nasty things to someone in the most circuitous manner, and I can get them so angry that they're doing no good. No "PA?" That's the thing. We used to assess disruptiveness, not ego attacks. We should still. We also needn't have some "insult of X severity = sanction of Y duration." We're humans, and that means we're smarter than any codification because, in the end, we always have to do the interpreting. Let's talk together, act together, and work together. Anyway, just some exasperation on my part. Geogre 14:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that drowning ourselves in policy is a bad idea. Causing people to become upset is also a bad idea, as is administrators setting a bad example. So let's *ommm* concentrate on our humanity and be courteous and forgiving and assuming good faith. :) - Samsara (talk • contribs) 17:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

People have wildly different opinions of what is and is not a 'personal attack' or 'uncivil'... but I think it is clear to everyone that what we have here is not cordial disagreement with everyone respecting their fellow editors. That's not good for Misplaced Pages and ought to be a sign to take a step back until you can be polite again. --CBD 18:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

MONGOs threat to block me

Was this an appropriate threat? As RPA is a disputed policy, I would like to ask fior approval from at least one admin to remove (not archive) what I feel is out of bounds/beyond policy warning on my page, without having to worry about a retributive block from MONGO. rootology (T) 16:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

How is that a personal attack? He is questioning the manner in which he percieves you operate, not attacking you personally. Now, you may dispute the factual basis of the assertion and demand evidence, that's one thing, but not use RPA to de facto censor the comment. El_C 18:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no policy barring the removal of comments from one's user talk page. In some instances this may be considered 'hostile' if the comment is removed without response where one would be expected, or 'deceptive' if possibly removing warnings to hide evidence of past misbehaviour in an effort to continue getting away with it. However, those are generally minor issues of civility and there is certainly nothing which would justify a block for removal of comments. Editing of comments to change the apparent statements of another user is another matter entirely and generally prohibited except in the case of 'removing personal attacks'... though as you note even then it is a disputed practice. Looking at this particular situation I don't see any way that removal of MONGO's threat could be problematic... it clearly does not expect a response and removing it doesn't hide any 'past misdeed' on your part. Threats aren't exactly WP:CIVIL and I can't imagine anyone would seriously argue that you should be required to host them on your talk page. --CBD 18:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

To answer the question, have you read the comment? (Yes.) Then it's your talk page. This type of warning isn't really in the "warning sock puppet" or other warning designed for other people to read. It was a message directed to you and not a tag, so, if you've read it, you should be free to delete it. No RPA involved. Geogre 18:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Geogre, no, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't a tag, please please don't talk crazy! (ZOMG NPA RPA and block me for egregious implication of insanity, and block me some more for saying egregious!) There is no virtue of irremoveability in a tag. Posting a tag doesn't require or guarantee any more understanding of policy, or good judgement, or good faith, or good sense, or restraint, than posting a self-formulated warning--less, if anything. Please don't encourage the notion that it's inevitably vandalism to remove a tag, and that if you post a tag you're free to edit war to force the person to display your wonderful untouchable tag on their page for ever and a day. Bishonen | talk 22:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

I was "warning" rootology not to alter my comments...the comments I didn't want him to alter were made by me here, at AN/I...I don't care if he did remove the warning I gave to him on his own talkpage, but it just looks like he's covering up the warning by doing so.--MONGO 05:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, yes, we agree! I was just systematically knocking down all the reasons someone might cite for not being able to remove a comment. As El C, that personal attacker, says, "Who is objecting to that removal?" I was trying to figure out why anyone would. Now me, I think tagging is what graffiti artists do, but some people treat tags as if they were sacred ornaments to be born for all eternity. Geogre 02:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, well, I'm refering to RPA enacted on ANI, not on a talk page. El_C 18:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

My understanding was/is that he was asking about his talk page. --CBD 18:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Still unclear to me. Where was the pertinent diff cited (above)? El_C 19:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

He was asking about this, I guess, in "appropriate threat?." That's on his user talk page and is a message, not the kind of warning given that shouldn't be removed. He can delete it, if he wants, so long as he has read and understands it. Geogre 20:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is objecting to that removal? It's a nonissue; the issue is misuse of RPA to censor criticism. El_C 00:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"Misuse of RPA?" I don't think there is a proper use of RPA, myself. Geogre 12:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, , I've seen one of my favourite heroines, the always-delightful Bishonen, implement it rather successfuly. El_C 20:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've seen it used skillfully, and as within the law as is possible, but removing insane ravings and removing personal attacks are a different matter. I saw her do the former, not the latter. Geogre 02:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record...

...keep up the good work, Mongo. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 00:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks...I usually say what I mean, and mean what I say.--MONGO 04:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violations by User:Galassi

Galassi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) recently "rewrote" the article on Carl Michael Bellman with large text chunks taken from http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bellman.htm, a Finnish literature website, and Grove Music Online, a subscription site difficult to identify through Google. Looking at his contributions, it turns out that at least this addition to the Sylvius Leopold Weiss article is also from Grove. With this attitude to copyrighted content, I suspect many or all his contributions are taken from Grove or other non-free sources. I have not systematically gone through and reverted all his contributions, as an admin can do this much more easily. A temporary block would probably be justified. Tupsharru 16:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds at first glance like the M.O. of Primetime (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who swore he'd keep up his behavior even after being banned. --Calton | Talk 01:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Primetime often copied from Groves. He's also re-appeared recently, including as Adorno Horkheymer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). -Will Beback 01:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Galssi is definitely Primetime. The fraudulent tags on the images he uploaded are another trademark. He may be using role accounts for different fields of interest. -Will Beback 02:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Torban

Torban (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who started editing Aug. 20, is now reinserting the same copyvio material from Grove's. Tupsharru 20:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Primetime (as user:Ferrymoyassity) wrote a message on my talk page disavowing any connection with Adorno Horkheymer and Galassi, but admitting to ╗Creat╚ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Galassi, et al., may be unrelated but share the same M.O. -Will Beback 22:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

CFD vs. DRV: action review requested

1. On July 19, WP:CFD deleted Category:Articles with unsourced statements (log} which was used on {{fact}}.
2. On July 31, CFD deleted Category:Articles lacking sources (log) which was used {{unreferenced}} and had been added to {{fact}} following the above deletion.
3. Subsequently, Category:Articles needing sources was created and added to {{fact}}, et al. This was nominated for deletion on August 11: (log)

• On August 14, deletion review was begun on Category:Articles lacking sources. This morning that was closed with a unanimous verdict to overturn (log)

Based on that conclusion (closed by Xoloz), and the close relationship between these different rulings, I have taken some unusual actions, which I want to make others aware of for review and comment.

1. I closed the ongoing CFD on Category:Articles needing sources, and as it was now entirely redundant to the restored category, I deleted it after moving the references back to the restored category.
2. I restored Category:Articles with unsourced statements. Though this category is not specifically discussed in the DRV, the arguments and context are extremely similar. I believe the existence of this deletion largely escaped notice because most uses of it were converted to Articles lacking sources at the time of its deletion.

If people object to the second undeletion, we can run that through DRV also, but I am confident the result would be the same.

More generally, I think we have a problem if CFD can, through the course of active discussion involving dozens of participants, repeatedly reach a conclusion that can be unanimously overturned by dozens of other participants at DRV. At least one of these groups must be out of touch with the views of the larger community, and that in itself is a substantial problem, in my opinion. Dragons flight 18:11, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll raise my hand to speak for some of the DRV group: our objection, repeated in many voices, was that the deletion left a large tear in scores of articles and that any xfD lacked a solution to the damage caused by the deletion. Inasmuch as this was an admonitory category and not a content category, we (most of us) felt that there could be no deletion without, simultaneously, a solution that would substitute for its old function. There were other factors, as well, mainly related to the fact that the compulsion to delete was based on a false premise, but I'll let server folks talk about that. Geogre 18:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I have an idea ... this seems like a change to big to be undertaken by *FD alone. How about starting a discussion in project-space to go for two weeks and link it from {{cent}}? --Cyde Weys 18:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. As the admin who closed the first CFD above, you'll note that I disagreed with the consensus but considering that all of these categories spawn from changes in {fact} it seemed reasonable to assume that if we were going to put into place some metacategorization (by month? with a toc?) then the category itself was likely to be nuked in the process anyhow (and others added to {fact}, requiring little human intervention). I don't think CFD itself is the problem, but that it is somewhat the redheaded stepchild of *FD so discussions there aren't given enough eyes. Barring that, I'd be up for making a guideline to closing admins on CFD to bring maintenance category deletion notices to ANI or VP or something. Syrthiss 21:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I really don't like the sound of that. There is already an inherent bias towards keeping things that are most useful to editors rather than the vastly greater number of readers, and this sounds like it would make it worse. It is people who visit Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion who are most engaged with the management of the category system, which is an issue in its own right, and I don't think our rights should be taken away. We have a page called "Categories for discussion", so the question is are we going to be allowed to make decisions on categories at that page or not? If not, why not? There are an increasing number of comments on the page which simply scorn the process rather than engaging with the merits of the category, and it is becoming demoralising.

I am seriously concerned that the whole system is biased towards retention of marginal categories because it usually only takes the creator and a few other people to prevent deletion, and the people who (over)value a category are the ones who are most likely to notice that it is up for discussion. A bad example of this was the retention of the "entertainers by age of death categories"; there was an overwhelming consensus to delete after 7 days, but the debate wasn't closed promptly and after 9 days a bunch of meat puppets showed up and voted "keep" in the space of a few hours. It increasingly seems to me that over time the category system is likely to get steadily worse, because even if only 10% of bad categories are kept, that means that more and more bad categories will accumulate over time and eventually the category clutter on high profile articles will become so bad that they might as well not have categories at all. The way to tackle this is to keep as much control of the category system as possible in the hands of people who care about the category system as a whole and vote on that basis, rather than as partisans for or against specific categories, and that means the people who take the trouble to visit "Categories for discussion" regularly. Thus I deprecate anything that downgrades the decision making status of "Categories for discussion. Chicheley 23:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I had thought that the standard way of doing things was that pages or categories associated with a process, policy, proposal etc. should not be deleted without first abandoning or changing the things that depend on them. In other words, *FD is not where we decide how to do things on Misplaced Pages; *FD doesn't get to decide policy (process, proposal, ...) by deleting them or the things they depend upon.

Thus, if one wants to get rid of something used by the project, make it obsolete first and THEN delete it. IOW, if {{fact}} shouldn't associate with a category, get consensus first to change {{fact}} not to use a category, and then, when the category is no longer in use, delete it. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This conversation brings to light a very serious problem with the workings of Misplaced Pages. Decisions are supposed to be made by discussion, but there is little consensus about what that means in practice. To some it means that there is a straw poll, everyone gives their opinion, and if the requisite percentage is met, there is consensus. That is the current practice, but I think this understanding of the meaning of "discussion" is wrong. Discussion has to be a much bigger process, and the wisdom of administrators has to play a bigger role. Jimmy Wales, in his numerous talks (they are linked to his article), gives an AFD example where everyone says "delete" until the very end of the discussion at which point someone explains clearly why something should be kept, and it is. This notion of discussion is slipping away. If we have policies, an admin should be able to weigh the arguments made during a discussion in light of what the policies are and then make an informed decision. This is more like being a judge than a election official. If a discussion clearly points out a problem with a policy, the closing admin should close it by saying "no consensus, refer the issue for discussion at the relevant policy page".

Our system of creating policy is moving towards becoming totally descriptive. Having descriptive policies instead of proscriptive ones are valuable when things are evolving. If you don't know the best way to do something, or if people have differing ideas about how to do things, let them work out solutions, and see which work and which get adopted by the wider community. Then we can create descriptive policies about what evolves. Once we have policies, we should apply them, or discuss changing them. What we shouldn't do is vote case by case with a random set of voters.

I'd like to propose that anyone closing a discussion try to weigh the arguments against policy. If the popular "vote" is clearly against policy, the admin could state an "initial decision" explaining their rationale, and leave the discussion up for a while to allow conversation to continue. In this way the admin would be behaving more like a facilitator. Once closed, the voters could start a discussion about changing policy on the appropriate page. --Samuel Wantman 08:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate block by Tyrenius

I've recently been blocked for responding to someone warning me on my talk page about supposed trolling and threatening me with a block after he had inappropriately attempted to invalidate an AfR support which was valid according to policy, even though the account that made the vote is supposedly a troll. The only edit I made after that was to note that the user warning me had recently been inappropriately attempting to invalidate a legitimate support vote in an RfA, and so his warnings didn't mean much to me. However, within minutes I was blocked by Tyrenius because the warning I made was supposedly a personal attack, though it included no inflammatory language and did not in any way insult the user who had added a warning to my talk page.

I'd appreciate it if someone could help with the problems I'm having being blocked for so-called personal attacks that are completely benign and come no where near to being attacks. Love, Coyote (t) 20:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll chime in with Coyote on this one. In recent discussions User:Tyrenius takes good care to be civil. But shows little regard for etiquette, threatening to remove discussion from article talk pages if he feels it is inappropriate. his messages to me and my messages to him. This was after I had placed sort of "maybe the two of you can alternate turns" at an article's discussion page which he removed here. Terryeo 07:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Stop attacking other people and you won't have any problems. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Endorse Tyrenius' block entirely. QEC's contributions have been almost universally unproductive -- Samir धर्म 07:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Re. Terryeo, I suggest you study a talk page first, before inserting irrelevant, provocative comments (described by another editor as "completely unhelpful" — see User talk:Sunray) in the middle of a tense, but constructive discussion, and insulting the editors involved: "Sheesh, I thought I had problems where I'm editing !" Your contribution, for what it's worth, is archived. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but next time I will regard it as deliberate disruption. Tyrenius 18:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Concerted, coordinated vandalism effort on front page

This isn't vandalism in progress, because regrettably the front page has had to be protected. If you check the history, about 8 different IDs vandalised the same way (some using the saravulva.jpg clitoris picture) with the same edit summaries, all in about 5 minutes. Anchoress 20:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages:Main Page is permanently protected. If you're referring to Roman Vishniac, articles linked from the Main Page are vandalized all the time, policy is not to protect them while they're there. It's not on the Main Page any more, anyway. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I was talking about Roman Vishinac. I wasn't asking for it to be protected, at the time I posted the original comment it was protected; I didn't post for action on vandalism in progress, but to suggest that maybe it was one person with multiple accounts, or that it might be vandalism happening across several pages simultaneously. Just a heads-up, I wasn't asking for any action. From the blocking comments it looks like all 8 or so vandals are being treated as socks anyway. --Anchoress 02:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Philwelch

User:Philwelch is a sysop, he redirected pages to a Cylon charcter list.

The charcters each had there own pages.

• 1st annother user reverted him. A discussion then began.
• Then i reverted him. He then blocked me and cited he was being bold .
• Now annother user reveretd him and he blocked that user. He just pulled that block however.

He has violated 3RR five times, He has also violated two rules on WP:BLOCK (blocking to gain presedence in content dispute) and "Generally, caution should be exercised before blocking users who may be acting in good faith.". The fact that three users oppose his changes should mean that the prior version should be restored, right?

Pages: Leoben Conoy, Aaron Doral, Number Three, Brother Cavil, Cylon (Battlestar Galactica) MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 20:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't really a good venue for deciding content issues. Try discussing the merits of the merges on the appropriate talk pages. This block may be a bit questionable given Philwelch's personal involvement, but you've already been unblocked. What are you hoping to accomplish? If you don't like being blocked for excessive reverts, try not reverting. I see a couple other blocks for edit warring- surely you know by now that there are more effective ways to edit. Friday (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not botherd about my block personally its the fact he is blocking others for isagreeing with him, violating 3rr and wp:block. All pages he reverted are good and being bold doesnt justify a redirect :\. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 21:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Um, Friday... while it is true that this is not "a good venue for deciding content issues" - the comments above say virtually nothing about the content dispute (beyond that it exists) and quite alot about questionable administrator actions. Which this page IS 'a good venue for discussing'. Admins should never block people with whom they are involved in a content dispute. It is one of the very few things we are explicitly prohibited from doing. --CBD 09:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've advised Phil to back off. There's simply no reason to edit war over such an insignificant topic. Kelly Martin (talk) 21:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I encourage everyone to participate in the ongoing content discussion at Talk:Battlestar Galactica (2004 TV series)#Merging minor Cylon characters into Cylon article. So far no one else has really made an attempt to address the concerns I'm bringing up. — Philwelch t 21:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Great idea Phil! Let's talk about it. Too bad you've BLOCKED EVERYONE who seems to have a problem with this issue today. So how are they supposed to retort?

BTW, to whoever gives a damn about this, I'm speaking on behalf of my friend User:Cyberia23 who was unjustifiably blocked from editing today by Philwelch who is clearly abusing his power as an admin. I'm not the only one who sees what he is doing and knows that it's wrong.

The problem started when Phil redirected all minor character articles from Battlestar Gallactica, (those in particular Leoben Conoy, Aaron Doral, Simon to name a few) to the default Cylon page without any real discussion on the matter (of course he's offering that now after the fact, how kind of him).

The so-called discussion ammounts to this: One person DrBat suggested here to merge the minor character articles to the Cylon and Phil barges in and makes the changes like he owns the place. Anyone who tried to tell him otherwise he blocks! He claims on his Cyberia's talk page under "Cylon Redirects", and per Being Bold, that no discussion is warranted which is complete BS. He has since told Cyberia he will be unblocked if he assuers he won't make changes - again complete abuse of admin power and being unfair to Cyberia who can't even plead his case since he is blocked from editing and participating. Cyberia said a few hours ago he won't make changes, but when will Phil show mercy and unblock him? Ina few minutes, a few hours, days, or whenever Phil feels like flexing his godly power and grant pity. Cyberia will not kiss his ass and no one else should either. Phil needs to have his admin powers revoked, and maybe sit in the time out chair for a while so he knows what it's like to be ignored and unable to defend yourself.

Someone please unblock Cyberia23 and get power-tripping admins like Phil out of here.

There are also other users he's blocked today. Please allow them to return. SkeezerPumba 23:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It is mentioned in this report that Philwelch has violated 3RR five times, has he been reported to 3RR? If not, point me to the articles in which he violated 3RR and I'll lodge a report. Dionyseus 01:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reported Philwelch for his 3RR violations on Aaron_Doral and Brother_Cavil. Dionyseus 02:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I unblocked Cyberia 13 minutes after placing the block, as his block log shows. AN/I is not a forum for libel and personal attacks and you will be blocked for using it as such. — Philwelch t 01:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree with what Philwelch is trying to do, but his administrator actions were way over the top here. He used the rollback button in a content dispute, and, much worse, blocked two users for 24 hours for reverting him, without any discussion whatsoever. I know, people are now discussing this peacefully and probably come to a satisfactory solution, but this really shouldn't have happened in the first place. --Conti|✉ 01:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I find it difficult to disagree with this. Jkelly 06:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for my frustration—multiple users think that tag-teaming and simplistic readings of policy outweigh producing a good result. My actions were successful, however, in bringing other editors to the discussion table, which was really all I wanted. If you want to start a confrontation with me, you're going to lose, one way or another. If you want to talk to me, we can talk and work something out. — Philwelch t 02:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Philwelch blocked me without warning me, all I did was one revert of his redirects in the Aaron_Doral and Brother_Cavil articles in which he has clearly violated the 3RR violation. I was unblocked quickly, Philwelch was told by the unblocking administrator that his block was clearly inappropiate. Dionyseus 03:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I am appalled not only by the actions of Philwelch, but also by his statements afterward, especially ...multiple users think that tag-teaming and simplistic readings of policy outweigh producing a good result. My actions were successful, however, in bringing other editors to the discussion table, which was really all I wanted. This is completely unacceptable behavior by an administrator -- bullying people into cooperating rarely, if ever, actually works, and 3RR is frankly, fairly simplistic, as is the rules on WP:BAN. Silas Snider (talk) 03:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. What should those who have been treated unfairly by Philwelch do now? Arbitration? Dionyseus 03:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I was unaware Phil had unbanned me soon after the ban because I had to apparently refresh my cashe and cookies on Mozilla to edit again. I was didn't even think of checking the blocklog, so it looked like I was banned for several hours. SkeezerPumba told me to refresh everything and now it seems to work. My mistake, but not really my fault had I not been banned in the first place. I did't wannto start crap with Phil over something trivial as Battlestar Galactica fancruft but he left me no choice until I figured out what was going on. I spent a lot of time on those articles to just see them get trashed and no valid reason given. Hopefully we can work a compromise, but thats really up to Mr. Phil here. I was pissed off, but I don't feel he should lose his admin privledges over this, but given at least a warning on his record for stomping on people until he hears him out. Just because he has a BLOCK USER button to press doesn't make him right about everything, plus his "If you want to start a confrontation with me, you're going to lose, one way or another." sounds like he has an attitude problem. Cyberia23 03:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Was reviewing WP:ANI/3RR and saw the multiple complaints as listed above. I've blocked User:Philwelch for 24 hours in the same context for a bit of a cool-down period -- Samir धर्म 06:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Inshanee - Harassment by Admin

This Admin will not leave me alone. She blanked my userpage under false pretenses. Now she is leaving threats on my talkpage.

"Regarding edits such as this: This is your only warning. Make any more attacks or harrassing comments against other users and you will be blocked. --InShaneee 23:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)" Diff: ]

Obviously there are no personal attacks or harassment. Someone needs to have a word with her on how to behave and remain civil. We don't need self-appoined censors on Misplaced Pages.

Sarastro777 21:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by bringing the matter here. I also don't appreciate your characterization of my comments; racial remarks of any sort, including "jew lover" (to use your example), is unacceptable. Mackensen (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

What I hope to accomplish is that someone will tell Inshanee she cannot go around banning people for valid conversations. Uhhh.. you are contradicting yourself as I had filed a complaint about someone calling others "jew hater." You concluded it was "calling a spade a spade." You exactly confirmed the point I made on an unrelated talkpage that "jew lover" is equally unacceptable, but would be more readily enforced as so. I didn't call anybody a "jew lover." We also most certainly ARE allowed to discuss, edit, document "racial" language in the proper context. See nigger,Cracker_(pejorative),etc. Sarastro777 22:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You are aware that to call a spade a spade is idiomatically defined as "To speak directly, precisely, and forthrightly" American Heritage Dictionary definition of "call" at Bartleby.com. Additonally, aside from whatever connotations you yourself place on the word, a spade is a shovel. Syrthiss 22:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

"Spade" is also offensive slang for a black person, and some people think that the expression "to call a spade a spade" is a reference to this. However, the expression was around long before that usage of the word "spade". -- Kjkolb 08:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It's "he", for what it's worth, too. --InShaneee 16:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Sarastro777 blocked for 24 hours for the Gestapo remark. El_C 00:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Please may Sarastro777 be banned for one month from trolling this board?

The usefulness of WP:ANI is in inverse proportion to how much time we have to waste dealing with tireless malcontents. My own inclination to frequent the page is in inverse proportion to the boringness and the depressingness and the sinking feeling of pointlessness I experience every time yet another Sarastro777 thread turns up. Is that just me? We're being too nice here IMO. People have been banned, even permanently banned, from posting on AN and ANI before. Please comment below: may I ban Sarastro777 from ANI and AN for one month? And, I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but personally I consider this to be a question principally for admins. This is a board "for reporting and discussing incidents that require the intervention of administrators". Somebody remind me, has any issue Sarastro777 has brought here ever required the intervention of administrators? Bishonen | talk 02:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

My patience with this user wore thin long ago. Do exactly that, and I hope we'll all agree to impose blocks if he defies the page-specific bans. Metamagician3000 02:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

His recent contributions seems to consist almost entirely of wasting time on this board and on Talk: pages; I certainly support this as well. Jayjg 03:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I have been engaging in discussion with the user over the block here. It's not really working out, by which I mean, it's failing dismally. El_C 04:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Support ;) ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 05:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know well Bishonen's sinking feeling of pointlessness, and it should be avoided at all costs. :-) SlimVirgin 05:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes please; anything that moves these pages more towards action items and less towards malformed RfCs is a good idea. Jkelly 06:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I too would support this. Even longer if necessary. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 11:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, all. I'll give it a couple more hours for any further comments and then, unless there are counterweighting protests, tell Sarastro777 that he's banned from AN and ANI for a month. "Banned" means he's not to post on AN or ANI under any excuse or from any account, and if he does, any admin can block him at discretion (I'd suggest 12—24 hours) and remove the post. But active enforcement of these things usually doesn't turn out to be neccessary. Hopefully he'll just get on with writing the encyclopedia. Bishonen | talk 12:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

I would support this as well. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 13:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

A block would seem like a good solution. Thε Halo 13:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarastro777 has been banned from posting on ANI and AN for one month, to run from when his current 24-hour block expires. I wonder if we should have some place to record stuff like that? This thread will soon be in an archive. Bishonen | talk 18:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

Perhaps a box on the user talk page of the editor, or is that too much? -- Avi 18:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with Bishonen that we need to keep a record of this kind of stuff, the place to do it is WP:AN...I think a box on his talk page wouldn't necessarily qualify as "too much" exactly, but I'm pretty sure it would be both inappropriate and misplaced. Since archiving is a concern here, and obviously is less of a concern on WP:AN (there are already notices there that are going on a month old...), I say tack up another notice there, Bishonen, and when this discussion is archived, provide links to the archived discussion in the notice. Cheers, Tomer 18:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Notices last for a month on AN? Eggzellent, that sounds just right. I don't want to shame the user or make his page wear an albatross or sandwich board. I just want admins to have a note for reference. Bishonen | talk 19:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

User:Halibutt

I would like User:Halibutt to be warned for personally attacking me(WP:NPA), multiple times, not only on my user talkpage, but also in numerous discussion threads.

one example comes from my talk page:Then perhaps you could tell me why do you believe black people should be exterminated? //Halibutt 12:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I have never made any statements about black people and this was totally nonsensical and out of the blue, check my contribution history to see proof of that. This all started when he started a revert war over the proper name for Polish September Campaign

--Jadger 23:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This was merely an example of the tactics Jadger's been using against my good name for the last week or so (claiming I said something I did not and then accusing me of it on several pages). And from Jadger's comment on my talk page it seems pretty obvious that he understood it as such, that is an example of the said tactics and not as a personal attack. It seems that this report here has been motivated solely by his recent actions being noticed and by the recent warning he received from one of the uninvolved admins, as well as from one of involved admins.

However, if Jadger indeed mistook my comment for an offence, which I seriously doubt, then I'm sorry, as it was not meant to be one. //Halibutt 23:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Jadger? What happened? It looks exactly like you removed Halibutt's comment, without even leaving a comment about doing so—without even an edit summary. I assume that was some glitch or mistake? Bishonen | talk 23:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

If you were truly sorry, then why have you never said so on my talk page? or anywhere else for that matter except for where you can be punished (here). it was not "an example of the said tactics and not as a personal attack" or else he would of stated so, and my statements on his userpage show that. As for accusing him of saying something he did not, on his userpage I cited from the talk page where he did indeed state what I was indicating.

I did not "understand it as such" as you can see by my statement on his talk page, (which BTW is what I have been told I have been warned for) as I am forced to tell him in the statement that his attacks on me are logical fallacies.

--Jadger 23:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I want him warned simply for justice (or else I would ask for him to be blocked), not for a vendetta. when two people make personal attacks, they should both receive the same punishment for the same crime, or else it gives the illusion to Halibutt that he can continue to do so, which he has indeed continued to do on my talk page, now he has progressed to thinking he can order me around.

--Jadger 23:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Jadger, this makes no sense and is a loss of time. I asked you to remove your offensive comments. You did not and instead claimed that it's perfectly ok to accuse me of things I never said. Above you even claim that you provided a link in which I explicitly state that I have been in a mood that I can revert anyone, which is obviously a lie, since you did not provide any citation for that (no wonder since I neither said nor shown that anywhere - anytime). Anyway, after repeatedly asking you to stand by WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA and getting nothing but further offences and accusations, I simply asked here for some intervention. You've been warned and I thought that solves the issue.

However, now it seems that this childish tit for tat is going on even further. You ask me why have I never apologized on your talk page? And why did you never state on mine that you misunderstood my comment? Anyway, if anyone believes I crossed the lines - feel free to punish me. I don't try to evade any punishment, but would like some basic respect from Jadger. That's what's lacking in his slanderous accusations and that's what sparked this entire discussion. Whether it was my fault to be offended by Jadger - I'm not sure. Whether he misunderstood my comment - I don't know. I did apologize the first second I realized he might be offended. I still await apologies for the offences Jadger has cast. //Halibutt 18:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You asked me to remove my "offensive remarks" but I did not because I could prove that you did indeed say such things (and my remarks were thus not offensive), and I indeed did cite it on your talk page. perhaps you should stop skipping over the occasional line in paragraphs and read the whole article, rather then just what u want to see.

I never stated that I misunderstood your comment on my talk page because you have changed your meaning now (in order to cover your tracks), as you have done before elsewhere, and have been charged as such by others. If you were actually the bigger man as you pretend to be, then you would have done some actions (such as apologising) in order to end the dispute, instead of dragging it out here.

I am not apologizing for the "offences" i have committed because I firmly believe in what I said, and I have been punished for it by a warning which I feel is unjustified. You however have had the chance to end this by publicly apologizing to me on my talk page, which would end the "discussion" and add closure, but you have decided not to do that, instead you have decided to continue making up excuses on here in order so that you can pretend to be the victor . You will only get some "basic respect" from me when you have earned it, I have been brought up knowing that you have to earn respect, and so far you have not.

All Halibutt needs to do is apologize to me and admit that his statements were wrong, and this would be over, but he will not do that.

--Jadger 19:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

An suspicious annoymous user editting the "Entropia Universe" article.

Hello,

I'm concerned greatly about an annoymous user (last IP was 88.105.73.18) who seems to be on a crusade on the Entropia Universe arcitle. They have a very swift tendancy to edit *any* negativity in the arcitle out, often under the guise of 'Removing Vandalism'.

They have even targetted the talk page too (Clean Up, Removal of unnecessary negative ranting and Vandalism, Removal of Spam Advertising, Restoration of Balance and removal of troll comments.)

They never use an account, and from the user contributions on the user page the Entropia Universe article is the only place they seem to edit.

I don't want to turn this into an all out edit war - but this person is really trying my wick and I don't know where to turn. They have as of yet left no comments on the talk page of said article.

erm... help!

AvanniaRayzor 23:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Disputes about article tone are pretty common, and this one doesn't seem to require (or allow for) administrative intervention at this time. I agree that some statistics-removals have been agressive, but the solution is to talk about—try taking WAS up on his suggestion at the talk page. I'll also add the article to my watchlist to get a better feel for the situation if it continues. -- SCZenz 03:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Good grief. How long have you guys been putting up with those talkpage deletions? Without going into the more difficult questions of article text removal and article tone, the removal of other people's comments from the talk page is not a difficult question at all. Doing that is a serious policy violation, period. I have posted a sharply worded warning on the user's own talkpage. If it happens again, please a) revert, and b) let me or another admin know as soon as possible. I've watchlisted the page, but watching isn't infallible, so do give somebody a shout if this abusive practice continues. Bishonen | talk 04:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

Yet Another Ray Lopez Outbreak

Persistent wikistalking over the course of a couple of years gets stale. Stirling Newberry 05:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours for abusive behavior. Looks like there's a bit of history to this editor -- have a look: 67.18.109.218 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log). Antandrus (talk) 05:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

RubberJoshy

RubberJoshy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

At a quick glance, I get the feeling that all his edits are hoaxes, but I don't have the time or energy to research British or Bulgarian TV shows right now. Help? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've asked User:TodorBozhinov to take a look. Jkelly 23:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

He's been creating pages getting speedied for one reason or another left and right. I've blocked him for three hours to try to staunch the flow of nonsense; I'd appreciate if someone else took a look, made sure I wasn't on crack, and (probably) indef'd him. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Most definately B.S. He's putting the name Josh Carter all over the place as an actor, game designer and even a football player. The account hasn't done anything else, indef seems warranted. Shell 23:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Claiming an affair with Jim Davidson, being creators of tv programmes all whilst being 16/17 years old.... --pgk 23:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Also see User talk:Josh Carter who I guess is now autoblocked as a result... --pgk 23:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've indefed RubberJoshy; what's the right thing to do about the User:Josh Carter account? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done a 24 hr block on User:Josh Carter to let us consider things. That user (too?) had been vandalizing in an highly juvenile manner. He added himself to the births of his birthday, and he made a G1 (even if true) "footballer" article. He marked all of these (including page creation!) as "minor edits." Then he goes and creates a second account? This all when brand new? Uhhhhh. I've rolled back his spurious edits and invite others to throw a longer block at him. Geogre 12:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

What a pain. Josh Carter's edits (at least the surviving ones) were all *after* the block on RubberJoshy; I'm not sure how he escaped the autoblocker so quickly. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably got home from the LAN party at his friend's house. I've left him a welcome and an explanation, since it may not be obvious to him why his edits weren't accepted, much less why he got blocked in his new incarnation. Rich Farmbrough 22:35 20 August 2006 (GMT).

There is nothing wrong with welcomes and explanations, but, honestly, I can't imagine how someone would add his birth to the date page and write up articles about his buddies as "footballers" and be surprised that the edits were rejected. It's like warning vandals: I really can't see how the "is gay" vandal is going to not understand why he got blocked. (Yeah...I know...the warnings are for future interactions and not really for the user. Still....) Geogre 02:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

in re: article on Melissa Farley

User:Nikkicraft who along with User:Peter G Werner has also started editing above named article seems to have mixed up a "hi how are you - here are some comments/questions as we work on this together" message left on her (I've checked & User:Nikkicraft IS a she) "My Talk" page with the actual Article.

User:Nikkicraft cut & pasted the "Hello message" into the actual Article Dicussion area, then put "citations needed" on things, and then started arguing with it.

Following Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes I've tried to get User:Nikkicraft's attention to discuss this several times with no luck. If it come to it User:Peter G Werner has indicated he thinks User:Nikkicraft is behaving a little strangely too. But I'm hoping maybe she's just confused and an Admin can get her attention and point her in the correct directions towards harmonious editing. Thank you CyntWorkStuff 07:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I placed a comment about the "lease just chat back at me lover" confusion on her talk page, commented on and moved some refractored material from the talk page. Also, highlighted the role played by my cat in the debate. El_C 20:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Airport-related user names.

What is it with blocking all these Airport-related names? I keep getting autoblocked because of it. Autoblocks are frustrating because they block legitimate logged in users, too. Looks like we have a lot of block-happy users tonight. Please assume good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by August 20, 2006. (talk • contribs) No thats not a mistake - that is the username.Viridae 08:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Huh? If you are getting auto-blocked its possible someone with your IP previously was blocked. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 08:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting username you have. I can see people getting very confused by that. Viridae 08:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed it, but I wrote this because I keep getting autoblock messages because of blocked usernames related to airports. Nobugs 08:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

See WP:TAV Anomo

That's because the "airport vandal" is nothing more than an AOL dos vandal, and even though people know that, they don't seem willing to watch for collateral from TAV blocks.--64.12.116.65 18:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

argh

I've just done something that trolls and policywonks worldwide have probably been waiting for with bated breath. If anyone regards it as a severe violation of policy, please undo it and repair it as you see fit. The act in question is "reclosing" the "closed by a non-admin" AfD discussion for Jahbulon. In case you can't figure it out, the crappy 2nd nom I closed was even misspelled (Jabulon vs. Jahbulon). Ugh. It's such a mess...I don't think I acted improperly, but the probsibility that people out there are going to scream "impropriety!" remains. Feedback welcome. If 3 admins feel I've acted improperly, please, a 4th, block me for 24 hours. Ciao, belli... Tomer 10:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't matter to me , as long as you don't do so again. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 10:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

And the farts with you... Wha? Tomer 10:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Let them scream into the wind. It was even withdrawn by nom. But let someone else do it next time to keep your nose clean. Tyrenius 18:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks. Tomer 18:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Open proxy ?

While browsing WP:AFD, I came across this edit by MagnusSound (talk • contribs) which looks like something done through an open proxy (escaped quotes and all). Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted those edits, both were brand new editors on an AFD vote editing through a broken proxy... I left a note on the page and blocked both editors since any further edits by them are likely to do similar damage. --pgk 11:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've identified and blocked the proxy in question. In the future, you can list this kind of thing at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser#Requests for IP check. Mackensen (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

rf block review / normal process, not few-admins' decision labelled as "community block"

Ackoz (talk · contribs), Azmoc (talk · contribs) and the corresponding IP. I think that as Ackoz I contributed enough to wikipedia (most notably and other medical articles I have written/contributed to), that I should deserve a process like arbitration before I am blocked indefinitely from wikipedia. My last comments were "Concur" and "I second that" on ANI, which were labelled as superfluous trolling and the block was extended from Azmoc to Ackoz as well as the IP. I think it's too harsh. Maybe the arbitration would place me on probation, or block me aswell, however this long term/indef block issued by only a few overzealous admins is far too much. If I wanted to vandalise or do any harm to wikipedia, I could do thru proxies etc. 200.44.59.162 12:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

If you have tried {{unblock}} and been denied, there is a clear precedent to allow community-banned users to appeal to Arbcom. You can file as an IP, if the cases is accepted you will probably be unblocked to participate. Thatcher131 (talk) 18:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"grapheus" is back

Banned long-term abuser "grapheus" aka Rose-mary (talk · contribs), the Phaistos Disc vandal, is back:

• 80.90.39.22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 80.90.38.39 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 80.90.38.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

This is the guy who kept threatening opponents with real-life harassment and was probably responsible for the Gator1 incident. (see , ). Can somebody please reinstate a range block of 80.90.32.0/19, because that's the only thing that has been effective in the past in stopping him. Thanks, Scabbers the Rat 14:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That guy, eh? I've done a three-month range block for anon users only and allowing account creation. Will that do? Too long, too short, anybody? Bishonen | talk 15:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC).

Seems about right. Rich Farmbrough 22:39 20 August 2006 (GMT).

Bad Faith assumed

Sue Anne and myself had a discussion yesterday regarding about my edits to an Apprentice article and based on these two inputs on my talk page (, ), I am going to have to take it as having either bad or no faith on myself whatsoever. Out of bad faith Sue Anne unloaded her harsh criticism on me, and after trying to battle it out during my sleep, I am going to have to take it as Sue Anne either having negative and/or no faith in me whatsoever. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 14:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe i shouldnt ask but could you show me where she has shown any bad faith? From my quick look to me it looks like she is trying to help you. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 14:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Matt, expect a message from myself shortly — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 14:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You should really post it here so others can see. Ok, maybe you are offended but to my knowledge opinions are allowed and Sue Anne hasnt really been uncivil towards you has she.. she has tried to help you and while your style may differ she is trying to get you to use the style a concensous agrees on. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 14:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Matt, the reason why I had to let you know about this privately is because obviously, Sue Anne does not like the way I edit things, and judging from her comments, only assumes bad faith in me. As much as I can, I try to assume good faith, but the weight of Sue Anne's comments were in a word too harsh. I really have to contest the capitalization style at another discussion since I really disagree with a lot of editors regarding about capitalization guidelines, namely when it comes to bulleting. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 21:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: I'm putting up with my beef (See my beef here) regarding about capitalization style at the discussion located at Manual of Style (Capital Letters) — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 21:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Sue Anne's comments seem to have been with respect to content rather than to contributor and seem not to have imputed bad faith to Vesther's edits but simply to have imputed a lack of appreciation for WP:NPOV or WP:OR; her conduct seems to have been, IMHO, altogether fine and quite courteous. Joe 18:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Objection to your comment Joe, I read the comments and it appears that Sue Anne's comments were overly harsh, and considering that it's too harsh, I have no choice but to stay my course and consider that Sue Anne has either little or no faith whatsoever. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 01:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but someone has to ask: So? Assuming bad faith, if it were possible to know someone else's assumptions, is a noticeboard matter how? Content disputes are not for AN/I. Warm fuzzies vs. cold pricklies are even less an AN/I matter. Geogre 19:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I suppose the assumption of bad faith is not exclusively a content issue, but Geogre is nevertheless correct; if the behavior by which Vesther is troubled persists, surely another editor will intervene, in view of which an RfC might be pursued (although, FWICT, this is really much ado about a trifle). Joe 22:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Vesther, I think you've misunderstood what "assume good faith" means. It means that we should assume that our fellow users are contributing with the best of intentions, even when we think their contributions are inappropriate or substandard. Sue might have judged your contributions harshly, but she hasn't assumed bad faith unless she has accused you of inappropriate motives for your contributions. Has Sue commented on your motives for contributing to Misplaced Pages? He she, for example, accused you of deliberately vandalising Misplaced Pages? Of disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point? Of contributing material for the purposes of enhancing your income or reputation? Has she in some other way implied that you are not here to improve the encyclopaedia? If not, then this dispute has nothing to do with good or bad faith. Snottygobble 01:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason why I brought it up was because of the beef she had about the way I capitalize things (see my beef here), as my ways of capitalizing is much different than others. I really disagree with the capitalization conventions for this website as of right now. That is my first beef. The second beef I have is as much as I tried to make an article "The Apprentice 4" as presentable as I can, Sue Anne hates the style of my edits. I try to be very careful and cautious about my edits so that it wouldn't go off-topic, but the fact that Sue Anne disliked my edits really made me deduce that she has no faith in me whatsoever. I hope that this answers your question. I made sure that all of my edits are within the rules, but the fact that Sue Anne detests the way I edited the page made me assume that she went way over the line, hence "editor killer" in this case. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 02:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This seems to evince the same confusion of which Snotty meant, I think, to disabuse you. There is, IMHO, a difference between a user's assuming bad faith of and a user's having no faith in a contributor. Neither, of course, is particularly propitious, but whilst the former focuses on the contributor, the latter focuses on content. There surely are editors who, for various reasons, contribute in a fashion that is sometimes avolitionally disruptive—users, for example, who aren't particularly comfortable with English, such that they might be of great assistance with the rough translation of articles from other wikis but not with the cleaning up of grammar and syntax in those articles—and it is not unreasonable for other users to pay special attention to the edits of such editors (because the purpose is encyclopedic, this is not, to be sure, Wikistalking). Whether a user's edits improve the encyclopedia is one thing (here, a style/content issue for which you might want to seek a WP:3O), but whether he/she means to improve the encyclopedia (and is willing to collaborate rather than to be categorically contumacious) is quite another. Joe 06:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

TJReturns

Is this a threat or what? --64.229.178.241 17:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Blocked. Petros471 17:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Linkspam from User:Knowledge for All

Said user (contributions) has engaged in adding inappropriate external links referring to http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org to many articles. Is there an easy way to revert these en masse? --Lambiam 19:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget to all use Special:Linksearch to check for all web links. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Peculiar user behavior

User:S-man, User:The Fat Man Who Never Came Back, and User:Qmwnebrvtcyxuz seem to be behaving in a very peculiar way. At one moment, they appear to be very naive: at another, they seem to know an awful lot about the technical details of Misplaced Pages editing. Their writing style seems very similar. All of this at the same time that various vandals with different MOs seem to have descended on the en: Misplaced Pages... -- The Anome 22:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I dunno...their styles don't seem to be similar enough to convince me of sockpuppetry. However, feel free to open an RCU on them if you're really convinced. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 22:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I would second an RFCU, also I'm not too happy about this at all. Yanksox 23:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah. That there is definitely some bad news. And Cute 1 4 u is a confirmed sockpuppeteer herself (see User:Raven Symone). However, I'm still not sure about the three up there being the same, but an RCU would definitely convince me otherwise. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 23:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:S-man states he is 9 years old, and User:Qmwnebrvtcyxuz that he is the second-youngest editor on wiki. This might explain some of the concerns... Tyrenius 23:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Exactly. Not to be ageist, but it seems unlikely that a nine-year-old (S-Man) would create two sockpuppets, have them interact with each other, and have different styles of writing (S-Man seems very proficient grammatically and in terms of spelling, whereas Qmwnebrvtcyxuz is not - see his userpage). Also, S-Man seems like a legitimate contributor, having been around since December 2005. And as for Yanksox below, can you provide some diffs? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 23:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not refering to Misplaced Pages, just look at the userpage of S-man and look at some of the links he gives out. Yanksox 23:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to sound evil, but when I visit some of the links, I find it very hard to believe their ages. Yanksox 23:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

His MySpace says he's 16...although he could be lying to bypass MySpace's "14 or over" rule. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 23:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not that, it's other links that he supplys and the fact that he has a father and an aunt on the website according to his userpage. It's too complicated to describe, but something just doesn't seem right about this whole situation. Yanksox 23:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC) (editconflict)To be honest, I think it's either one of two things. One, assuming good faith, it's about 5 users that don't understand the concept of Misplaced Pages and focus too much on the social aspect or two, thinking about it for a while (paranoia), it's a few users trying to test the patience of the site to get a reaction. It could be either thing, but it is very concerning. Yanksox 23:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've now indefblocked User:S-man as a self-declared vandal. His "secret vandalism project" seems just too knowing of other Wikimedia projects for a kid just playing around. I suspect that these are adults, trying to see how patient we will be with self-described kids. User talk:S-man now seems to have giant images on it: I find the fake page title of "Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..." oddly reminiscent of someone else as well... -- The Anome 23:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you did that, as I was getting concerned about this account. He says he is nine, but the writing is sometimes a lot more mature than that, and on other websites, he gives different ages. He has concentrated his time here making contact with what appears to be a bunch of very young users, mostly girls or purporting to be. He said his father and aunt edited here too, and linked to two user names, one of which had made one edit, the other of which had made none, and in both cases, S-man had created their user pages. There was something decidedly ... odd, and I wasn't looking forward to trying to work out what it was. SlimVirgin 23:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Look at this edit, for example. There is something seriously wrong here. I think we should stop assuming good faith at this point. -- The Anome 23:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Why on earth are you associating me with these characters? I’m mystified and disappointed by your misguided insinuations. Take a look at my edit history. I know my contributions aren’t terribly impressive (unless you count my rewrites of Battle Dome, Detachable Penis and Wynona's Big Brown Beaver), but you’re going to have to look hard to find any vandalism. Anyway, I just happen to find humor in some of the edits of S-man (and I'm sorry to hear you've blocked the little guy; there are people out there causing a lot more trouble than S-man, who's still learning and trying to make useful edits). If you’re looking for sockpuppets, I might direct you elsewhere.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 23:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

What, like this edit? -- The Anome 23:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with that? That's my user page. A couple sockpuppets of Solipsist3 threatened to kill me for nominating his article for deletion. I chose to make light of it; that's my sense of humor--it may not be yours. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's put a darkly tinted joke on his user page. Lighten up.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 23:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I never believed that you were S-Man's sockpuppet - I think you're innocent. However, there's definitely something bad going down with S-Man - my AGF has been stretched to its limits. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 23:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It gets more ludicrous by the minute. Here, User:Qmwnebrvtcyxuz claims to be eight years old, and furthermore claims here that another user is three months younger. I would suggest that we either:

• take them at their word, and block them from editing on child protection grounds, or
• block them for impersonating very young children, and starting conversations with other apparently very young users

-- The Anome 23:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Jkelly 23:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I may have to rescind my comments above about them not being the same person. As of now, I'm thinking that S-Man and Qmwnebrvtcyxuz are possibly the same child impersonator - as I said above, an RCU would clear that up nicely. I think Fat Man's probably okay; he's never stated his age to my knowledge. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 00:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I think the Fat Man is probably real, and just got caught up in the paranoia backwash.

However, in this edit User:Cute 1 4 u claims to be 11 years old. Very similar writing style to the other two apparent child impersonators. Again, real or fake pre-teens are just too young to be editing here. -- The Anome 00:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is another purported 8-year-old editor. Note the similarities to the others. Claims to have two other siblings who are editing here. -- The Anome 00:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You didn't give a link...did you mean Bethicalyna2? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 00:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

That's right, thanks for the correction. I've now deleted the pages in question. -- The Anome 01:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I have been following most (though not all) of these users for some time. I have serious doubts that most of them are the ages they claim to be though I have been unable to come to a conclusion. I figured at least some of them may have been the ages they claimed to be. Anyway, I was uncomfortable enough to have most of them on my watchlist but apart from the occasional copyvio image upload and excessive socialising (WP:NOT), I didn't see enough for me to step in. I am concerned that the stated reason some of these users were blocked is because they are too young. My understanding is that we allow people of any age to edit the Misplaced Pages and simply judge them on their actions. However, it is possible the real reason for the block is their actions. One more note, most of these people claimed to be siblings. For this reason, a checkuser will show one group of people (six to nine users iirc) editing from the same IP. We don't generally ban for this if they really are separate people. --Yamla 00:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

However, their actions included either posting personally-identifying information about themselves, or being online child impersonators. Either of which justifies an immediate indefblock. Blocks are not punishments, they are intended to stop bad things from happening, and either of those is a bad thing. -- The Anome 01:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. SlimVirgin 01:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that most of these editors came from 71.231.130.56. This shows up at least one other editor in that family. I am not advocating that we block anyone who has edited from that IP address, however. --Yamla 01:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe User:Bethicalyna (mostly edits as 71.231.130.56) claims to be User:Lindsay1980's sister. El_C 01:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. By the way, I've deleted Lindsay1980's user page, at her request, see her edit dated 01:30, 21 August 2006 in the deletion history. -- The Anome 01:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The checkuser I filed came back inconclusive. I've asked for an explanation, but I haven't received one yet. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 01:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser is not magic wiki pixie dust. It provides a very narrow type of technical evidence. Inconclusive means Mackensen can't say they probably are, but can't say they probably aren't, either. It's hard to be more specific without giving away info that could help other sockpuppets avoid detection. Thatcher131 (talk) 02:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm concerned about Cute 1 4 u's block; it seems predicated on very flimsy evidence (based on the block log comment); if there's more to it than that, I can't see it (most of the diffs linked above are broken). Powers 13:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Christine Jennings "slander"

See the diff at and what I have said on the user's talk page. I'm not sure if this is being dealt with; I initially reported it at WP:AIV as I was unsure where to report it. --Jim (Talk) 22:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone that has some sort of an interest in any article should refrain from editing the entry. However, the section was unsourced, if it's true just plug sources in an encylopedic manner. Yanksox 23:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The IP is registered to "(static-72-77-130-61.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net.) AS19262 VZGNI-TRANSIT Verizon Global Networks". Tampa, FL is not part of Florida's 13th congressional district, leading me to doubt the accuracy of this report. alphaChimp 23:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that it matters; it was unsourced material in a biography of a living person that was intended to lead the reader to think that the subject of our article was an anti-Semite. Who gets credit for removing it doesn't strike me as particularly interesting. Jkelly 23:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

As it turns out, the IP adress that initially added the information was 24.28.30.104, which is registered to 242830hfc104.tampabay.res.rr.com, so it looks like it may well have been politically motivated in the first place. Another multi-millionaire in congress is bad enough in my book, anti-Semitic or not, and the article already includes this information ;P --Jim (Talk) 23:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Please be very cautious about any derogatory information about a living person, and certainly remove on sight any such material which does not have a cast iron verifiable reference. Tyrenius 01:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit comment on Windows Mobile page history

Please remove the comment at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Windows_Mobile&diff=70751273&oldid=70608195 from Bonsai8 - which is me. It simply states a user keeps deleting links. The comment is true, but could be considered a personal attack and therefore should not be there.

I'm sorry, I'm rather busy on something else at the moment: could you please post your request to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard, and someone else should be able to take care of it there. -- The Anome 00:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Done, and thanks. -- Bonsai8

open proxies

It is possible to use wikipedia.7val.com (see Misplaced Pages:WAP access ) ip-range 87.79.3.* (?) (i only tried 87.79.3.253 and 87.79.3.249) as an open proxy on every wikipedia (all languages). Aleichem 00:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Rangeblocked 87.79.3.0/24 indef as open proxy. Naconkantari 00:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

But still possible on other wiki's Aleichem 00:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

See m:WM:OP. --Zsinj 01:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Long AfD

• Just wondering when this AfD would be closed. -- pm_shef 00:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Closed by Mackensen (9 days). Tyrenius 01:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of long discussions, this one was originally opened on August 5, before being extended on August 11. Maybe it needs a look at too. Ansell 02:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Closed ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Mikedk9109

Personal attack edit summaries, 3RR, vandalism. Please block indef along with his IP which is in the history of his talkpage. ForestH2 t/c 01:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked, 1 Week (not by me) alphaChimp 01:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really sure a week is enough. he claims he's retired but he's stayed around to edit war on his talk page, and the personal attacks and incivility he spewed on the way out the door was a bit excessive.--Crossmr 02:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I've suggested indef. and I suggest arbitration. ForestH2 t/c 02:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I was the blocking admin. I have no issue extending it to an indefinite block. Per the blocking policy the IP can be blocked for any arbitrarily large finite time, but not indefinite. JoshuaZ 02:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

O.K. But if he returns and vandalizes.....ForestH2 t/c 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say block the username indef. There was excessive hatred and profanity. Keep an eye on the IP, give him a week to cool it off, if the IP comes back and continues, report it to the vandalism or AN/I and have him dealt with then. I still feel the talk page should be restored. He's obviously trying to hide his behaviour and if it comes up again (via the ip or a sockpuppet) I'd like to see an easy reference point, rather than trying ot look through multiple versions of a talk page to get the whole story.--Crossmr 02:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Those are my thoughts. ForestH2 t/c 02:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

(Accidentally posted this two sections below for the wrong mike!) The user was blocked for a week and he now says he has left Misplaced Pages. He requested that people stop editing his talk page as courtesy (as they were repeatedly adding old warnings), so I deleted the page and full protected it. The user has access to an IP account that he was using that he could use to request the page unprotected, but there doesn't seem like there will be much need for that. The user seems to want to use his m:Right to vanish, so I'm letting him unless anyone objects with that. Cowman109 02:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't really feel its a right to vanish, and I don't think that should be used in a case where you have a person lashing out with multiple personal attacks, hate and profanity. He made his bed and now he has to lie in it. Turning and going "yeah I attacked a bunch of people, but now I want to disappear so lets all forget it happened" doesn't fly with me. I'd be more inclined to buy that if he departed without incident.--Crossmr 02:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. Other users have thought about arbitration for him by the way but there's no point doing that now he's left. He'll be back after his block is done, I expect. ForestH2 t/c 02:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If he's back after his block, he can edit other pages to contest the protection as well (he was abusing his talk page privileges anyway), in which case I will undelete the page. Cowman109 02:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If he his back after his block I would expect the talk page to be undeleted and the warnings and other content restored immediately as it would be rather obvious that he was lying about retiring. --Crossmr 02:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You've stated that. ForestH2 t/c 02:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This user- 7 people have had disputes with him. He is reverting to his own revisions which are vandalism. He's vandalised many articles; and is removing warnings. He always seems to get away with whatever he does, and he refuses to take other points of view; and he doesn't like any users; because they all think he vandalizes which he does. Could someone please interfere? ForestH2 t/c 18:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Never mind he just left Wiki. ForestH2 t/c 18:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I am aware of first hand of this user's conduct on wikipedia. He has made several controversial edits on the wikipedia talk page which upset a lot of people, and he is unwilling to compromise. Recently he has got rid of very important tons of very information from an article and no matter what I said or how much I tried to compromise, this user wasn't having any of it. Finally, I gave in and let him have his own way because disputing with someone so unreasonable for 3 or 4 months is exhausting. Apart from vandalism and lack of good ability to come to an agreement, Mike doesn't get along well with others. In fact, I have even tried to be nice in my dealings with him but he is very rude on top of everything else. Tonetare 19:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

retired or not edit summary is out of line, and the talk page should be restored. If he wants to retire, do it wtih an indef block as well for the behaviour--Crossmr 19:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Quasar

An edit war has been in progress at Quasar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), with Lengis (talk • contribs) repeatedly inserting material that has been reverted by at least three other editors (including myself). No useful source for the changes has been presented, despite repeated attempts to explain what sources are useful in this context. (Two sources were cited; one was an anti-evolution site, and one was a textbook published in 1983, which by nature overlooked the last 20+ years of research into the subject). At this point, administrator intervention seems to be required. --Christopher Thomas 01:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the article history, it seems likely that User:Lengis has also been editing as User:Malamockq... -- ChrisO 08:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It's quite possible, but unless the multiple accounts are used for nefarious purposes (vote-stacking or the like), there isn't grounds for a checkuser, if I understand WP:SOCK correctly. --Christopher Thomas 15:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Add 64.236.245.243 (talk • contribs), for edits to a similar range of articles to the other two users over a similar timeframe. --Christopher Thomas 17:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Update: User:Malamockq identified the IP contribution as his/her own (diff). --Christopher Thomas 17:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Residual effects in CAT:Speedy from vandalism to Template:USPoliticalDivisions

An anonIP added as speedy tag to the template {{USPoliticalDivisions}}. As a result, the many articles that included the template (including all of the U.S. states) had a speedy delete added — which made them appear in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion. The edit has since been reverted. However, at least for me, the resulting affected articles still are showing up in the category. I've cleared my cache, and purged the server cache. Any advice? — ERcheck (talk) 01:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's happening to me, too. I suggest we just wait, since we've done all we can do. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 01:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that the state pages do not show that they are included in the category? Is that an internal Mediawiki issue? Ansell 02:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I was seeing state pages, Category:Subdivisions of the United States, and Category:Insular areas of the United States showing up. Now they seem to be cleared, at least for me. Looks like Mr. Lefty's advice to wait was good advice. — ERcheck (talk) 02:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The m:Help:job queue is extremely high right now. (90000) Any changes which effect a large number of pages may be slow to 'update.' See Special:Statistics for the current number. Kevin_b_er 04:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Mike18xx Again

I posted regarding this user's behavior shortly before but it was not acted upon. The user has continued to make edit summaries with uncivil personal attacks and soapboxing:

• I didn't say strike didn't have "impact" -- and don't BS in your summary when your real intention is to restore fluffery.
• remove Marxist class-warfare rhetoric (eg, "student groups" are not a "well-off sector"). A collapsing economy precipitated the strike; it was not the result of it
• Changed sentence had two erroneous implications: That falling copper and aid were alone responsible for economic declines, which in turn were alone responsible for Allende's downfall.
• Rv "fluffing". First paragraph replaced with wording similar to main Allende bio entry.
• rv; pic did contain source information. Everyone keep an eye on Holocaust-related pics, as there appears to be a campaign afoot to delete them at Misplaced Pages (this was on an image removed by Orphanbot)

--Jersey Devil 01:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The user was blocked for a week and he now says he has left Misplaced Pages. He requested that people stop editing his talk page as courtesy (as they were repeatedly adding old warnings), so I deleted the page and full protected it. The user has access to an IP account that he was using that he could use to request the page unprotected, but there doesn't seem like there will be much need for that. The user seems to want to use his m:Right to vanish, so I'm letting him unless anyone objects with that. Cowman109 02:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you are talking about a different person. You seem to be talking about User:Mikedk9109 while I am referring to User:Mike18xx--Jersey Devil 02:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh. *looks at the mention of someone also named Mike two sections above*. Yes, it looks like I am. Sorry about that :) Cowman109 02:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Another hostile comment targetted towards User:Pablo-flores after User:Jmabel reported him:

Let me see if I have this straight: Somebody is tattling on me, and you're sending me a warning without having even seen the subjects in question to see if I am actually guilty of the alleged crimes charged? Has it occurred to you how easy it is for whining tattle-tailers to "bully" their "subjective views" into an article just by continually "shopping" around for admins to go stomp over the user-pages of their critics? Fine. Two can play the game; and since I have your attention, I'd just like to let you know that many Wiki editors who tattle about me are disingenuous vandals who have no interest in writing truthful articles and every interest in locking down their propaganda. This is particularly the case in (a) Islam-related articles (for obvious reasons), (b) property-reditribution articles (socialists would love to imagine there are no credible, or any at all, arguments against their favorite way of getting stuff without paying for it) and (c) Chile/Allende-related articles (where some are tenacious in their attempts to preserve moldy 35-year old propaganda -- it tooks *months* to get into Wiki the Chilean Chamber of Deputies' own pivotal condemnation of Allende and request for the military oust him). Also please be observant of the fact that edits are not the same thing as reverts, no matter how much the defenders of rubbish would like to conflate the two when siccing the admins on their detractors.--Mike18xx 03:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC) --Jersey Devil 03:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Obvious stalking

I'm at a loss as to what to do at this point. I'm concerned with Badlydrawnjeff following me around and keeping tabs on the AfD's I close. Threads to my talk page where this went on are here and here but note they are archived. Recently, he again began discussion of an AfD I just closed here. I'm asking for admin to intervene please. Thanks. SynergeticMaggot 01:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Just say "Thank you for your input," and keep doing what you're doing. You're doing good work. One of the things that you discover when you become an admin is that no matter what you do, there is someone, somewhere, who is unhappy with it. You're undertaking an admin-like task without admin powers, which is doubly thankless. Jeff's entitled to his opinion that your closing WP:SNOW AfDs early is inappropriate, but that position isn't supported by common practice. That's my $0.02, anyway. Nandesuka 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm trying my best to ignore him. I just figured I'd log an actual complaint, and bring this to the community. I dont really see it as a personal attack, so I felt it was best here. SynergeticMaggot 02:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There will always be stalkers. User:JDG's mine, for instance, they come with the territory. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 02:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I was going to say something like what Nandesuka said with the minor note that the speedy policies are controversial enough as is. There isn't much need to make things worse by speedy closing stuff which isn't within policy unless you have a very clear case (like in the Chuck Norris Facts article. However, speedy keeping out of policy is not as potentially disruptive as speedy deleting outside policy. Also, Jeff's behavior while annoying is not intrinsically bad- he is noting when a new admin makes out of policy speedy keeps. My recommendation to Synergetic would be to ignore Jeff if he continues but keep in mind what the actual policy is and make sure if you are invoking WP:SNOW to note it in your closing comment. I've also sent a note to Jeff asking him to stop. JoshuaZ 02:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

To side-step the issue of the early closes for a moment, there's nothing wrong with "wikistalking" in my opinon. The inventor of wikis has said that the "contributions" link and the ability to keep track of each other is a crucial ingrediant. I have a wiki-stalking box on my pseudo-user page that links direct to people's contributions. As to the early closes, I'll mostly echo Nandesuka, with a few small notes, as the ones I looked at were all acceptable, but I wouldn't have closed them.

• Were you finding that there weren't that many that had run five days that were obvious closes? The reason that I ask is that closing early doesn't do that much to decrease admin load. An argument could be made that since the more obsessive among us will double-check your work, it increases it.
• It's a good idea if something is to be closed early that you note in the close explicitly that you've done so, and even perhaps link to the "closing early" section in the guide to deletion. Don't link SNOW as it means nothing and there are other places to link that are not controversial.

brenneman 02:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Aaron, have you looked at the relevant closes? They were out of policy. The only justification would be WP:SNOW. JoshuaZ 02:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

And WP:SNOW cannot be a justification. I will challenge such closes every time as they're contrary to our speedy policies and guidelines. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why? Is it unconstitutional? Physically impossible? Aesthetically displeasing? Is there an actual non-process-worshipping reason? --Calton | Talk 05:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, now dishonesty, too. I logged my opinion on the Chuck Norris AfD on the 18th, three days ago. I keep the AfDs I'm involved with watchlisted, thus, I see when they're closed. I saw you closed it early. Done deal. My other complaint was when I went through an AfD page about two days after it was posted, and noted all your speedy closes. Guess what? I normally read the AfD page every day. Even if I *was* "stalking" you, read WP:STALK sometime: "This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason." You've grossly flaunted policy numerous times, and I have a legitimate reason to check up on your future closes as a result. It would be nice if some admins would instead step in and ask SM to cease with the closings until he learns basic deletion policy instead of coming to my talk page and getting on my case for trying to fix a problem. 9 improper, out of process speedy closes in the last 3 days. I'll fix the problem every time. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)Oh with that one I wasnt invoking SNOW. I check the last log on the main AfD page once a new log hits. Whats odd is that the AfD in quesiton is in fact in August 16th's log, yet time stamped as nom'ed on the 17th. If you wish to check, here is the log. Its at the very bottom. Thus making it approx. its fifth day on AfD, with 12 keeps (not counting this users keep:User:64.91.92.57), and no deletes. SynergeticMaggot 02:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Timestamp on Chuck Norris sig: 23:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC). Timestamp on SM close: 01:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC). --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I noted that already. And thanks. SynergeticMaggot 02:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Aaron: I just mean that he is bringing my closes up way too often. And says he'll do it whenever he feels like it. I dont mind the stalking part, its the hassle of him bothering me with it everytime I refresh my watchlist. And I do specify if I'm closing early in my edit summaries by the way. SynergeticMaggot 02:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we take this to my talk page? Call it quasi-pseudo-informal-mediation, or something, and help to keep ANI clean? - brenneman 02:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've brought your closes up twice, and you were especially hostile about it when I called you out on it and provided the links to them. There's an easy way to avoid it, of course, but you instead decide to call it harassment instead of fixing the problem. Not much else I can say to you, I've been extremely patient given the circumstances. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Translation: "Do what I say and I won't bug you, and I've been nice about waiting for you to obey me." Lovely. --Calton | Talk 05:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Noted. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur with translation: Bdjeff might consider that SMaggot is not a recalcitrant child and is not under any onus to conduct his behavior in a manner pleasing to jeff. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 09:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you approve of such flaunting of policy. Good to know. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoa! Now I wish I had powered through the edit conflict when I first saw this instead of backing out. Everyone please get the hackles down. Jeff's point of view and Maggot's are far from each other on a continuum, but they're both licit. Essentially, if something runs after a unanimous delete, it's not really going to hurt anything, so, if someone is asking that the thing go full term, there's nothing really bad about it. It's not really an AN/I issue. I agree with Aaron here. If Jeff is seeming too much of a finger wagger, then Maggot is probably seeming too much of a tattler, so let's relax. Both are legitimate folks with legitimate points of view, and both are trying to do what is best for Misplaced Pages. Geogre 11:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Well said. -Hit bull, win steak 14:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If any closing administrators have anything to add to what I said at User talk:SynergeticMaggot#Speedy_keeps, please do. Uncle G 13:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Speedy anything bugs me, unless it's an article that fits one of the already defined categories of "speedy delete." There is no CSK, just CSD. Festina lente, as the man said. Speedy keep, of all things, should be very, very rare, and only when dealing with WP:POINT violations and vandalism (nominating Carl Jung for deletion, e.g., because your favorite guru's article got deleted). Geogre 13:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, it would be nice if we could speedy keep things like this. Unfortunately, any attempts to cut that down are consistently shot down, so it tells me that people are indeed interested in the process as long as it suits them. That inconsistency is not a net positive for building this encyclopedia. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, come on! It's an honest difference of philosophy, so calling folks hypocritical isn't really helping, you know? It's true that most people put the burden of proof on the article and some on the people who believe that an article should be deleted, but the status quo always has an inherent virtue of working. Speedy keeping is often "stop talking," just as "speedy delete" is, and that's why neither should be used except in very narrowly defined circumstances. Geogre 15:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

PoolGuy sockpuppet

FolkWriterUp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) There's a new PoolGuy sockpuppet as indicated by this apparent confession. I can't say I'm familiar with what got PoolGuy banned, so I turn this over to the community. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 02:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest you move this to WP:AE. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why? He was community banned, not arbcom banned. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 02:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked indef. Naconkantari 02:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

apparent 'vandalism only' account

The user User:Sekort Sev Lewt has been active for only a few days, but seems to be used only for vandalism. I've posted a test-2 warning, but all of this user's edits (except possibly one) are vandalism and/or nonsense. Special-T 03:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Temporary block issued. — ERcheck (talk) 03:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I.M. Rich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Propose indefblock for repeated grave homophobic outbursts , endemic incivility , and threats of disruption . Earlier indefblocked by Samir on June 22, subsenquently shortened, but lesson not learned. - CrazyRussian talk/email 03:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I defended him after the previous indefinite block (for death threats). It was reduced to 48 hours on the presumption that he would change his ways. Nothing has changed and he's now threatening Misplaced Pages. I'd endorse an indef (or very long term) block. alphaChimp 03:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

He's been indef blocked. Especially with the past history, it is highly appropriate at this time. -- Natalya 03:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Jerkcity (talk · contribs)

I had a recent unpleasant interaction with Jerkcity (talk · contribs). After digging into his contribs I found some abusive edits. Most are old, so I wasn't sure it was worth posting here, but an admin I asked on IRC said the recent summaries warranted a note on ANI. So here is what I found:

The following are either incivil/abusive edits or have abusive edit summaries. 23 Sep 2005 9 Mar 2006 9 Mar 2006 9 Mar 2006 10 Mar 2006

This is the removal of a spam warning. This is perhaps just weird. This is an exchange I had with him about the rotten.com links; he later deleted this. Edit summaries for this exchange weren't complimentary; e.g. this one.

He then got a civility warning from Gadfium; he responded with this diff, deleting it, again with an abusive edit summary.

He's not particularly active, but some of those edits seemed extreme, so I thought it was worth letting people know about him. Mike Christie (talk) 03:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I reviewed his august 2006 edits (21 edits). He contributed some pics of toilets. Apparently he thinks links to rotten.com have more value than you do (you want to delete some, he objects). He called you fat. You respond with the above. WAS 4.250 04:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't have posted here on the basis of just those, though "lick it" isn't very civil, but another editor (a woman) found this edit summary, among others, alarming. She was planning to take a look at the rotten.com links to see if they were spam, and had started to do so when he objected on her talk page. I don't know if she plans to proceed, but her concern about the edit summaries seemed real to me. I asked for another opinion on #vandalism-en-wp, and got the response that the recent summaries warranted a note here. So here they are. Mike Christie (talk) 04:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"Girls not allowed to edit Misplaced Pages?" What a weirdo. Most of his edits have these bizarre or disgusting edit summaries. He edits very sporadically though; I think it would take a community block of at least 2 weeks to a month for any message to be received (though that may very well be a lost cause.) A month-long block seems harsh but for someone who contributes relatively infrequently but this requires a creative solution. We shouldn't have to put up with this kind of misogyny. Your thoughts? Grandmasterka 06:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the fellow seems to be inspired by the Jerky Boys, and he enjoys that kind of alledged humor, so disruption seems to be where his jollies lie. If he's gotten sufficient warnings, he probably should get a bit of a virtual punch in the nose (reference to defending against sharks, not a threat (one has to be explicit these days)). Geogre 11:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Poll threatens to violate "use common names"

This "binding" poll is using majority voting to establish naming conventions that, as of now, fly in the face of established conventions. Using "Michigan M-1" for a highway named M-1 violates both our naming conventions and common sense. Of course you my disagree, in which case you should "vote" too. Because all that matters is a numerical majority. --SPUI (T - C) 04:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't really understand how this requires administrator intervention... frankly, posting to AN/I about it seems like spamming for "votes". --W.marsh 04:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It requires someone to burst the bubble and inform them that a poll like this is not the answer. --SPUI (T - C) 04:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This sort of thing is exactly the sort of thing which could make me go over there and change my position, just out of a fit of spite. I think your position is the better of the two choices, SPUI, but it's not a choice between RIGHT and WRONG as you cast it. It's a series of tradeoffs. The most critical thing, as you and your antagonists have shown us over the course of countless months, is that without a standard -- even an arbitrarily-chosen one -- you or they will continue to drive all of us insane. (And all regarding an endless series of articles that I personally wouldn't even rate as encyclopedically notable. Sigh.) —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for helping prove that polls are evil - you can change your vote and affect the result for petty reasons that have nothing to do with the actual dispute. --SPUI (T - C) 05:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if the vote is close and I'm on the losing side, I intend to change my vote because I think it is far more important to end this nonsense than which side wins. WAS 4.250 06:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I greatly admire SPUI's purity and dedication and commitment and logic. I just hope he has what it takes to accept to accept that sometimes it is better to accept something and move on rather than fight forever over small potatoes. It is time to end the battle over naming US state highways in either a consistent way across fifty states or else however they are most usually refered to within each state. so to finally bring this to a conclusive end, I urge everyone to think about it enough to make a choice and then vote in the matter prior to aug. 31 so we can bring this weird tempest in a teapot to a close. WAS 4.250 05:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Neither option is a "consistent way across fifty states". The first one is a bloody stupid in-between option. --SPUI (T - C) 05:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

At present M-1 (Michigan), M-1, M-1 (Michigan highway), Michigan State Highway 1, M-1 (MI), and Woodward Avenue all point to this page or a disambig that can get you there. Throwing more redirects at it for 'common name(s)' and/or 'consistent Misplaced Pages specific standard(s)' seems unlikely to hurt anything. Obviously there could still be dispute over the actual name used for the primary page, but is that really so vital if users get to the right page / can use whatever linking name they prefer? --CBD 13:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Many people, noobs and veterans alike, make links, change links, and bold text corresponding to the article title rather than the actual name. Sometimes this is done because of a misunderstanding (willful or otherwise) of our practices, but often it's because people don't know the name offhand. If you are writing an article about a town in Maryland and want to write about Maryland Route 3, what do you write in the text? Would saying "Maryland Route 3 runs through Foo" be redundant? Would saying "Route 3 runs through Foo" be improper? How do you know if "Maryland Route 3" is bolded because it's the common name or because someone felt the Maryland should be there because it's in the title? You'll probably end up saying "Maryland Route 3", which in this case is correct. ("Route 3" is also correct here, by the way.) But in other states, the opposite is true. "The town of Foo, Florida is at the intersection of Florida State Road 50 and Florida State Road 19" is horribly redundant. Or even worse - the suggested form "Michigan State Trunk Highway 1 runs through Bar, Michigan", when no one, local or otherwise, calls it anything but M-1. But people write like this all the time, because the article is located there, and they either don't know better, are lazy, or think they have to write the whole title when linking. ("Florida State Road A1A runs next to the Atlantic Ocean, roughly parallel to US 1 for much of its path through Florida."; "As of 2004, the highway's eastern terminus is in Jacksonville Beach, Florida at an intersection with Florida State Road A1A three blocks from the Atlantic Ocean."; Little Talbot Island State Park is a Florida State Park located on Little Talbot Island, 17 miles northeast of Jacksonville on Florida State Road A1A." (Florida State Park may be redundant here too); "The John C. Lodge Freeway (Michigan State Highway 10) in Detroit is named in his honor.") --SPUI (T - C) 13:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Since polls are evil, and since the current process is flawed, and since there's only one user on here who has expertise on highways, why not just block anyone who's ever worked on a highway article under the wrong name? (After all, working on highways under the wrong name is disruptive, and we need to block people who cause disruption.) Besides, since the discussion is on WP:AN/I, the only real enforcement mechanism is a block, not another discussion. --Elkman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, the concern about "losing good editors" as a result of this dispute isn't really a concern. Anyone who's edited highways under the wrong name is prima facie a bad editor. And Misplaced Pages doesn't need any more bad editors. --Elkman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

SPUI, if you don't want a poll, what do you want to do? Can you think of another solution to this mess? --physicq210 17:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for following policy, no discussion from the blocking admin

Administrator User:William M. Connolley blocked me last week for following WP:BLP. I was removing poorly sourced material from a biography of a living person and was blocked for it even though WP:BLP states such removals are exempt from 3RR. I did make some mistakes, but I thought it unfair for Connolley to just block me without word from him to discuss it first. He also did not notify me of the block until an hour after the block. --HResearcher 06:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

HR, did you declare in advance that you were reverting under the BLP provision (did you wave your white BLP flag, in other words?), and was the material negative and arguably defamatory? A link would help. This is a new policy so there are bound to be some teething troubles. SlimVirgin 07:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I found it and see it's been deleted. I can read the article but I can't view diffs once it's deleted, so I can't tell what the particular edit was (and if it was perhaps defamatory, please don't repeat it here). I can see in general that it had to do with using Usenet as a source. That would depend whether it was negative material, whether it was written by the subject, and so on. Generally, we don't use Usenet as a source (see WP:V, but that wouldn't necessarily allow you to revert under BLP. SlimVirgin 07:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response SlimVirgin. The article was deleted then recreated, so the diff's are unavailable. I'm assuming this was done to prevent legal problems, as now there's no evidence remaining. Note that the new version that was "recreated" was drastically cleaned up and then protected. Generally, and others agree on this including a comment from Fred Bauder about one of the editors, the page was being composed and used as an attack page by a couple of users. One of the users was the one who reported my "violation" of 3RR. I did wave the white flag, but was ignored. Blocked without discussion from the admin, and then a notice I'd been blocked an hour later. Instead I got a note from the admin saying that BPL "isn't a get out of jail free card". If William Connolly would have said something to me first, at least I would have had a chance to understand what I was doing wrong because I thought I was helping Misplaced Pages by removing poorly sourced claims. I did make a few mistakes by removing things that were sourced and I restored those before I was blocked, but one of the users using the page as an attack page used my deletion/restoration against my instead of assuming good faith. --HResearcher 08:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

A pedantic point I know, but the deletion does not mean there is no evidence remaining, it means the evidence is restricted to admins. Otherwise you are right: the patern for WP:BLP / WP:OFFICE deletions is that the article is deleted, a stub created, and then new content may or may not be added with thorough sourcing, depending on the nature of the complaint and indeed the complainant. WP:3RR is pretty much automatic, so it's understandable if someone missed the BLP flag. Did you add {{unblock}} to your Talk page? I'm guessing it would have been sorted quite quickly, and you clearly understand why this BLP a particular problem and people tend to err on the side of caution. Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by a simple cock-up. William is not the sort of guy to go around blocking at random. Just zis Guy you know? 16:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I used the {{unblock}}. In response got a rather rude comment from William about a "get out of jail free card" instead of any opportunity for discussion. Note, that after my application of BLP, it seems Fred Bauder applied WP:OFFICE, so I don't think I should have been blocked. I guess if Fred Bauder didn't have such a high ranking in Misplaced Pages, William Connolley would have blocked Fred too. --HResearcher 05:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been given absolutely no information to go on. You haven't even provided the name of the article to which your editing precipitated your blocking. You need to help me help you. --Cyde Weys 05:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It was the Barbara Schwarz article. Thank you. --HResearcher 05:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh God, Scientology .... must run like hell. --Cyde Weys 05:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL. I don't get it... --HResearcher 05:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I heard that people--allegedly people in the church--targetted the article to make it into an attack page. Anomo 07:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's true - she's not a member of the CoS. What's certainly true, though, is that the subject of the page (Ms. Schwarz herself) has had to be indefinitely blocked for repeated gross violations of other users' privacy - outing them, basically. She's now taken to posting rants on Usenet against Fred Bauder, myself and other editors, and Misplaced Pages in general. Actually it's quite amusing : "Misplaced Pages or better Wikipiggi is a destructive cult. ... Misplaced Pages violates my rights and can't take any critic. They deleted my Misplaced Pages postings. Misplaced Pages is a defaming anti-free speech cult, similar as STASI and the KGB. It is anti-American and anti-constitutional. Even Congress is fed up with them. Misplaced Pages is above the U.S. Constitution and laws." 'Wikipiggi' is kind of cute - anyone for a Wikipiggi plushie? :-) -- ChrisO 07:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually that sounds like a good idea, oddly enough. A little mascot for sale on cafepress - "I'm just a pig for knowledge!" or some similar cheesy slogan... plushies are nice. KillerChihuahua 09:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Some of the earlier discussion here violated WP:WOTTA btw, but looks like I missed the moment now.

I guess HResearcher is unblocked already. Probably (s)he should go talk with William Connoly a bit, if (s)he hasn't already done so. Kim Bruning 15:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Deleting and protecting from re-creation

Some nitwits keep creating Ballyclainmarinygwymystradffoldnewrycloghernewtownkennedy, an obviously nonsensical hoax. The thing to do is surely to delete it and protect it from re-creation. Perhaps my brain isn't firing on all cylinders this evening, but I can't see a way to do it. I know there's a template for use here, but can't find it and can't think of a non-article where I've seen it, so can't steal it. Therefore as a short-term remedy I protected this stupid article and simply blanked it: no explanatory template, no nothing. Could some more experienced admin tell me what I should do, or of course do it for me? Thanks. -- Hoary 10:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

PS, oh, somebody has now deleted it. (That was fast!) OK, but now the multiple-sockpuppet nitwit will swiftly re-create it. -- Hoary 10:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Errr.... no-one stops me!!! I will keep re-creating deleted pages! --Shanel 10:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC) (actually User:FireBallOfGreece) - the wub "?!" 10:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Troll since blocked. --Doc 10:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Check again. {{deletedpage}} is the template you were looking for. the wub "?!" 10:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked some of the socks (one creates a page, somebody else then AfDs it, both do penis vandalism on talk pages). Kusma (討論) 10:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Moby Dick is back on his harrasment parole

Moby Dick (talk · contribs) is back on his harrasment parole.

• Please see: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Moby Dick and /Evidence

Enforcement of ban on harassment

2) Should Moby Dick violate the ban on harassment, he may be briefly blocked, for up to a month in the event of repeat offenses. After five blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year. All bans to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Moby Dick#Log of blocks and bans.

Passed 7 to 0 22:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

--Cat out 10:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

sorry, I can't see how voting Keep with no further comment constitutes 'harrasment'. On the other hand, he is banned from editing Kurdish or Turkish articles - so voting in a related afd is pushing it. But if that's all he's doing, I see no need for discipline. --Doc 11:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

See evidence on the ArbCom case, user has made it a habit to vote on afds I participate in. User is voting on that AFD just because I voted on it. What would constitute as stalking (harrasment) if this doesn't?

Furthermore Arbcom treated Moby Dick as a sockpuppet of Davenbelle who was also found to be stalking me.

--Cat out 11:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd better confess my self. Yes, I committed the same crime . I do seek forgiveness. Bertilvidet 12:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If you are intentionaly stalking me (as it appears you are confessing that). I ask you to stop. --Cat out 13:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Have you considered the possibility that we might have similar interests, despite different approaches, and thus have several identical articles on our watchlists? I do believe our occasional disputes wind up with more balanced articles, so I do not intend to stop contributing to articles that also have your interest. And I do not ask you to do so. I regret if you consider my keep vote as an harassment. Bertilvidet 13:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not recal accusing you of anything. You did that yourself. Oh you were actualy told of the AfD, Moby dick was not. I feel his "coincidental" appearance on that afd constitutes as stalking. A full list of coincidences from Moby Dick is avalible at Arbcom/Moby Dick/Evidence page. --Cat out 13:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've asked Arbcom to clarify whether Moby Dick's ban extends to projectspace on WP:RFAR. If it does then we can stop this without trying to string AfD arguments which don't even mention Cool Cat into a pattern of harrassment. --Sam Blanning 12:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I looked at this last night and decided that it isn't, by itself, a violation of the spirit or word of the remedies in the case; it's an isolated edit. If it should become a persistent pattern of following votes and other edits by Cool Cat, that may merit action. --Tony Sidaway 12:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

When Moby Dick made the suggestion that I was "disrupting kurdish categories". User:Bertilvidet was there quick to verify it. No one, including my own mentor, bothered to even asked my opinion. Archived ANB/I discussion. Later on an admin was quick to block me for that. The block alowed me to notice what Moby Dick had been doing (stalking). It had taken me roughly a day to gather the evidence and present it first to ANB/I and later to arbcom. The arbitration hearing had recently closed concluding that Moby Dick was indeed stalking me and one other user.

Arbcom also treated Moby Dick as a sockpuppet of Davenbelle. Davenbelle is banned from politics related articles as per a previous arbcom hearing. Moby Dick is banned from kurdish related articles. Thats two reasons why he should not be any near that afd. Furthermore he is banned from harrasing (stalking) me as per official WP:HA policy and as per an arbcom hearing. Two more reasons why he should not be any near that AfD.

Now we are back at square one with everyone being so protective of Moby Dick. I had enough of this stalking for one and a half years. Users entier contrib for the past week plus is that vote. He did not accidentaly discovered it now has he?

--Cat out 13:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Melbourne High School

Apparently "semi protected" but I've just reverted an edit by an IP? --Nigel 11:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

never been protected.Geni 11:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yea, take a look at this edit . It was just a user slapping the semi-protect tag on there. Metros232 11:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Didn't spot it, sorry & thanks for the swift response - cheers --Nigel 11:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

203.10.224.59 (talk · contribs)

I just thought I'd bring this user to the attention of the administrators. He has repeatedly made abusive edits to the Rockstar Games Presents Table Tennis article. He has made the same edit each time - 27 July 2006 31 July 2006 4 Aug 2006 10 Aug 2006 15 Aug 2006 21 Aug 2006.

All his other contributions (that I've looked at) have actually appeared to be beneficial to Misplaced Pages though and he's reverted vandalism on other articles quite a few times, which confuses me. There are several warnings on his talk page and he doesn't appear to have listened to them. This is the first time someone's irritated me enough to report them, so I'm not sure how long I'd recommend he be blocked for, I'll leave that to the admins. HK51 11:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You might check to see if that IP is familiar with three revert rule and if they're not then put a {{subst:3RR}} warning on their talk page. Outside of that advice reporting this type of problem is left to the 3RR noticeboard. (→Netscott) 13:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I spoke a bit late as User:Samuel Blanning has blocked this IP for vandalism. Still 3RR would apply here as well. (→Netscott) 13:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Subhash bose has been blocked for 1 week

This is a long standing issue. User:Subhash bose (Nataji) has been blocked 6 times since July 7th for 3RR vios, for violating NPA and other offenses. He came off this last block on the 19th. Since then, he's done such things as call User:Geek1975 and any other user who has opposed him a "vandal". He's also made edit summaries such as "rv. I kept the facts. Read my damn edits" and "Ahh. the sweet smell of fact distorters in the morning". He's also removed material which can be considered properly sourced. And he's also been incivil by Doing an edit summary in ALL CAPS. And then this morning, he essentially declared that he was going to no longer assume good faith and assume "guilty until proven innocent" if he considers a posting to be a "deliberately false edit". And also today, he has labeled edits to his talk page as "bogus", has struck out comments he hasn't liked. And he has also accused other users of being incivil, which he has done in the past. I decided to block him for a week. Given all of his blocks, I wanted to make it indefinite but I know that many admins don't believe in that for violations such as this and I respect that. If someone wants to extend the block, so be it. But to me, we have a user who has been given multiple chances and yet refuses to follow our rules. And if anything, he's getting worse not better. --Woohookitty 14:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

And he keeps on calling me anti-Semitic. BhaiSaab 16:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Good work on the part of User:Woohookitty here. Hopefully when Subhash bose (talk • contribs) returns he/she'll be inclined to work with more civility towards making this great encyclopedia even better. (→Netscott) 16:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, see Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Subhash bose for compelling evidence that he's sockpuppeteering. A checkuser is pending as well. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 16:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Although I have not tracked down similarities in their edits, given the interaction between this user and Bakasuprman (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) I wouldn't be surprised if there was puppetry afoot there especially in light of this diff on Subhash bose's talk page. (→Netscott) 17:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Syiem and RSudarshan have both been blocked by Kilo-Lima as socks of Subhash bose. I'm not sure about Bakasuprman, since he hasn't been edit warring on Indian nationalism. Keep an eye on him just in case, though. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 17:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Per the ruling here and at Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Subhash bose, I have extended the block to 15 days. Iolakana•T 17:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

He has contested that these are not his sockpuppets on User_talk:Subhash_bose. I suggest you guys do a checkuser, and if it fails to confirm cases of sockpuppetry, reduce his block to 1 week. BhaiSaab 19:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair use violation on {{Infobox Australia}}

{{Infobox Australia}} has a fair use violation with the use of Image:Aust Coat of Arms (large).jpg. This image is clearly tagged with a fair use tag. Currently, the removal of the image from the template 'breaks' the template, in that a portion of it fails to visually display in a pleasing way. Nothing functional about the template is broken.

Several users (User:Szhaider, User:Cyberjunkie, and User:Petaholmes) keep re-inserting the image into the template, in violation of Misplaced Pages:Fair use criteria item #9, which specifically proscribes the use of fair use images in templates, even if legal under law. Petaholmes in particular insists this usage is fair use and is not problematic . I have explained to Petaholmes that this is not a permitted use, and pointed him to where he can go to get a fair use exception (though such exceptions are exceedingly rare).

I have noted both to Cyberjunkie and Petaholmes that this template, while 'broken' by the removal of the image, is actually broken in its use of the image. It should be re-written to avoid the use of the image, or {{Infobox country}} should be used instead. In the meantime, the image should be removed from the template. It is not arguable to say, in essence, "We violated your copyright because our template did not look right without it, and we wanted it to look right until we developed an alternative". Petaholmes is currently arguing that I am bizarrely targeting this infobox and that the image should remain until we develop an alternative .

As it stands now, the image is still on the template in violation of our policies. Failing an exception being granted for this case (which as noted above is unlikely), it needs to be removed from the template, regardless of whether the template looks nice without it or not. I would appreciate it if a previously uninvolved admin would please remove the image again, and leave a warning to the effect of fair use violations being improper to anyone who attempts to revert the removal again. --Durin 14:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I note that this isn't the only template that you have attempted to destroy in your endless quest against coat of arms images appearing in templates. In many cases, coats of arms images are in the public domian, and can't be copyrighted- so there is no problem in using them in templates. I would say this is true of the Australia arms. Can't you find something more productive to do, or at the least work round your identified issue instead of mindlessly deleting valid content? Astrotrain 14:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• All contributions to Misplaced Pages done with good intent and within our policies are welcome here. I'm sorry you feel that this is "mindless", an "endless quest", unproductive and having identified issues. If the images in question which you feel are in the public domain are in fact so, then by all means please go and fix the tagging of those images to reflect that with proper sourcing to confirm the status, rather than assaulting me for properly removing images under our fair use policies. --Durin 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The copyright status of the image is a rather interesting question. At the moment it is listed as fair use which is probably the safest option if we want to avoid some rather messy parts of international law.Geni 15:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• It is an interesting question, and one that we should satisfactorily resolve so that all coats of arms images of all countries can be properly tagged with whatever comes of the research into this legal area. We've done our homework on country flags. We need to do the same on country coats of arms, rather than make a presumption (as some have done) that they are in the public domain. Until we know they are in the public domain for a fact, we need to treat the tags as authentic unless we have some verifiable, sound reason for re-tagging them under a free license tag. --Durin 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed about the tagging. Aren't Coats of Arms defined by the proper heraldic description ("Sable, 3 mice courant, argent; crest, a domestic cat couched as to spring, proper; motto: As my Whimsy takes me") and the concrete rendering is up to the artist? So there are a number of questions here:

1. Is any given description under copyright? If not, we can have someone rerender the description to get a free image.
2. If yes, is the actual rendering a derived work under copyright (I'd argue no...)? If not, we can again have someone rerender it.
3. Is the actual rendering a creative act and hence protected? (It might depend on how formulaic the rendering is)
4. Are there any renderings for a given coat of arms that are public domain? For most jurisdictions and most coats of arms this is probably true, as they are fairly old. But things like Crown Copyright might interfere.

--Stephan Schulz 15:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• If the images are currently listed as fair use, it's inappropriate to use them in userspace. Until we determine otherwise, they should be removed from the templates. --Improv 16:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Try that, Improv, and you will generate the mother of all edit wars with users from every country they are used, and people working on every article they are used, reverting their removal en masse. You are talking about triggering off a Misplaced Pages-wide war on the issue. Merely touching one sparked this row here. Can you imagine the results if you try to take the coat of arms from the UK template, the French template, the Irish template, the American template, etc etc. It would be an exceedingly silly thing to do. Get the guys in the foundation to get legal advice on their status and if they are legal put a note to that effect in our rules. Frankly the Australian row right now would be like a kiddie's tea party compared to the backlash that would occur all over Misplaced Pages if it was attempted, unilaterally, to remove coats of arms from boxes. FearÉIREANN\ 16:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, the US arms are not fair use but public domain, but I have no idea about the others. However, we have a firm rule against using fair use images in Templates, and if the images are tagged fair use, they have to go. If you can find public domain or other compatible copyright images, please use them, but threatening a war over a non-negotiable rule set by Jimbo is counterproductive. User:Zoe|(talk) 16:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• If they're violating policy in an area that breaches legal safeguards we've established for ourselves to stay well away from legal contention, then they should get a stern talking to. It's not so unilateral if established, sensible policy is behind it. --Improv 17:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If people edit war to be unfree content back into template space, just protect the templates and explain that we don't use unlicensed images to decorate our templates. It's not obvious to me what kind of "row" that would cause beyond normal irritation about unfree image cleanup, or why we need to worry about it any more than our removing logos from userspace, or any other activity unpopular with people who would prefer Wikimedia projects to have a different approach to copyright and licensing.

Not all coat of arms designs are in the public domain. Any rendition of such a design is a derivative work, and cannot be released under the kind of free licensing that we want. We must therefore claim Misplaced Pages:Fair use on the rendition. In those cases in which the description is "in the public domain" (very loosely speaking here), we need to make our own renditions, as we don't claim Misplaced Pages:Fair use on things that we can potentially create on our own. The fact that there are other requirements upon the usage of coats of arms in various different jurisdictions that have nothing to do with copyright is something that we seem to have so far been comfortable ignoring. A further complication is that there are coats of arms in which there is only one "official" rendition and we cannot create our own and maintain accuracy. We can't ask User:Brad Patrick to make some sort of blanket declaration on whether coats of arms are "okay" or "not okay", because each individual coat of arms is going to require a minimal level of research. We'll muddle through, I'm sure. Jkelly 17:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't get it. It's a single-use template. Subst it. --SPUI (T - C) 17:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Concur with User:SPUI. Another alternative; User:J Di implemented a variable calling in the template, so that the rendering of it has the coat of arms if called with the name of the coat of arms. This satisfies the requirements of our fair use policy.
  • This seems like an excellent solution. I'm willing to help with migration to this solution if everyone finds it acceptable and someone points me at the list. Drop me a note on my talkpage if you want help here. --Improv 18:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• I also agree with comments of others above; even if it does touch off a war, it's not a reason to not do the right thing. Ascertaining what the right thing to do is a case by case basis that needs some level of research to achieve.
• Also, echo what User:Jkelly said. Various jurisdictions have restrictions on how images can be used. Whether they have a legal leg to stand on doesn't, in my opinion, seem to be the central point we need to consider. The use of such images, if done clearly under a reasonable fair use claim, gives us an affirmative defense and response to those entities who voice concern to us about violating their usage restrictions. Use on userpages and other non-main namespace areas brings no value to the project and exposes us to complaints that would leave us with less of a reasonable response to those entities. If the images are in fact under a free-license, let's tag them as such and move on. If not, let's be conservative. --Durin 17:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:Australia coa.png here at en is covering up commons:Image:Australia coa.png (which I didn't notice when I tried to insert the Commons version into the template discussed above). The version here at en, apart from questions about our ability to license the image and Australia's restriction usage, has no information about the source of the rendition, the artist of that particular rendition, or the license the creative aspect is under. Is there any reason not to delete it? Jkelly 18:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• No, with the caveat that vector-images.com has made mistakes, and I don't think we should be capitulating our copyright free decisions to them. See . --Durin 18:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. Jkelly 19:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User 12.156.158.79

User 12.156.158.79 has made 6 deletions on the JetBlue page within 2 minutes total. The page is now almost empty. Request blocking of said IP. Thank you. --Neo16287 16:30 21 August 2006 (UTC)

He hadn't received any warnings, so I gave him a first-level one. Blocks should only be performed if the user has vandalized after receiving his last warning. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 16:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Mattisse

Mattisse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has gone on a rampage prodding and tagging articles simply because they are linked from Starwood Festival and WinterStar Symposium. The Starwood Festival is an extremely notable event in the pagan community which has been occuring annually since 1981. It features many notable authors in the pagan community. True, the articles read like promotional material, but this can be fixed. And yes, some of the authors linked are not notable and should be deleted. But Mattisse is not bothering to discriminate between notable and non-notable individuals, and is prodding and tagging longstanding articles about notable authors without doing any research, checking Amazon, etc. He appears to be on an anti-pagan vendetta. -999 (Talk) 17:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not the only example of this behaviour, I have been a victim as well in an article about software of all things. He tagged up AppleShare with innappropriate tags, and (as is too common) failed to put any reasoning for the tags in the talk page. When I removed them and asked him to post his reasons, he re-tagged with a PROD notice instead. I have asked him on several occasions to explain his logic, but invariably he instead comes up with other (equally invalid IMHO) complaints.

His talk page and edit list are filled with examples of similar PROD tagging, literally dozens today alone. It appears he has good intensions, but seems unwilling to do the legwork required to tag articles correctly, and then gets upset when someone calls him on it. I believe a block is in order, but because I have "had words" with him prior to this (note to self: check talk pages carefully and don't take things personally!) it could be construed as bias. Suggestions? Maury 18:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Mattisse seems to have a thing about Wiccan claims. He also has gone after Margot Adler several times, tagging it but (so far) refusing to discuss why he applied the tags.

Atlant 18:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:WikiWoo

Once again I have blocked WikiWoo (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) for creating articles like Public Procurement (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Prequalified (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and for edits like this to mainspace when the latter was nominated for deletion. Comments welcome, review, extend, shorten, etc. Frankly I'm sick of him. Just zis Guy you know? 18:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a reasonable block to me. A quick look at Talk:Public Procurement shows pretty clearly that WikiWoo is soapboxing here. Friday (talk) 18:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:PresidentClinton

Unless Bill Clinton has a lot of time on his hands and has taken up editing Misplaced Pages as his new hobby, this is clearly an inappropriate username. Atlant 18:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Impeached --Doc 19:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Semi-Protect Body Count

An anon who lost out on an AfD of a related article in now trying to continually insert incorrect info on a non-existent album into Body Count & Body Count (album). Might we get a temporary semi-protect to disuade our anon friend from his daily reverts?

• Done. Let me know when this is settled (or in 3 days, whichever comes first) so I can lift the protection at that time. --Improv 19:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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