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Jenna Fife

Jenna Fife (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Scottish League is not fully professional and she has not made an international appearance, therefore she fails WP:NFOOTY. Fails WP:GNG with no ind. coverage going in-depth. JTtheOG (talk) 00:22, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 00:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 00:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 00:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Keep - Article needs expansion, not deletion per WP:ATD. The WP:FPL essay is perpetually "incomplete" as noted at the top of the page and largely irrelevant to women's leagues around the world. SWPL is the top-division women's league in Scotland. Adequate references provided. Hmlarson (talk) 03:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Keep - WP:FPL is indeed very very incomplete. And not really well defined. This would bytheway put almost all international women's league players up for deletion. Since almost every league in women's football has only one or two really professional teams. This would mean a hugh disparity between men's and women's leagues. Which would mean Misplaced Pages is actively against women's sports, since in general women's sports (some debate incorrectly) receive less money (and with that less professionalism). My advise is to decide relevance on status of the league, top divisions of countries. Do note that Jenna Fife did play as a youth international (talk) Funafuti1978 (talk) 07:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Delete Top division of women's football in Scotland is not fully-professional, nor has she won a full international cap yet, so fails WP:NFOOTY. Note to closer – playing in a top division is not sufficient to pass WP:NFOOTY – the league played in has to be fully-professional, so despite the incorrect claims above (which are disappointing to see despite the editor in question being fully aware of this), WP:FPL is relevant here. Note these recent AfDs on male players who played in the top division in Lithuania, Ireland and Cambodia respectively, which are also not fully-professional. Number 57 09:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Delete, as she has not played in a full international or in a fully professional league. This article on STV News goes into some detail about the status of Glasgow City, the dominant club in the Scottish league (the subject plays for Hibernian, one of the clubs that tries to challenge Glasgow City). It is not discriminatory as there are opportunities for highly-talented Scottish players to play professionally in other countries (England, Sweden, USA, Germany), which many of them have taken. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Keep here a list I created some months ago that shows the top European teams based on the Elo Rating system (used for the FIFA ranking as well): . Calculation method here: ]. You can see the top teams are from the following leagues in Europe are (in order of importance): France 1, Germany 1, Sweden 1, England 1, Russia 1, Switzerland 1, Spain 1, Poland 1, Italy 1, Scotland 1, Netherlands 1, Serbia 1, Denmark 1. And maybe at lower level Austria 1, Czech Republic 1, Hungary 1, Turkey 1, Belarus 1, Kazakhstan 1, Belgium 1, Bosnia 1, Romania 1, Iceland 1, Cyprus 1 (all with teams in the top 100). Calling the Dutch Vrouwen Eredivisie professional and the Scottish league not is very strange. Why is sports measured on money in stead of merit? Again that creates automatically more men sports articles than women sports articles, which sounds very biased (talk) Funafuti1978 (talk) 11:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Keep Nice article TeeVeeed (talk) 00:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

WP:NOR. If the Scottish league rates relatively high due to results in European competition, those will be largely (if not entirely) based on Glasgow City (who Jenna Fife doesn't play for). They have won the Scottish league for the last several years and have been the Scottish representative in European competition for all of that period. Calling the Scottish league "not professional" is pretty straightforward - it's based on the fact that the players are not paid to play. You ignore the fact that there are ways of this player (and others) becoming notable - they could play a full international or they could join a professional club. She hasn't done either. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that having an article on Misplaced Pages is primarily linked to notability. In football terms, notability is strongly linked to professional status; with the exception of a few clubs funded by sponsors, most clubs can only turn professional if they have sufficient numbers of people coming to watch them. Implcitily, this means more people will be aware of professional players are they play in front of larger crowds. Women's football is less popular as a spectator sport than men's football, and as a result, its players are less notable. And before the usual gender bias accusations start flying around, I am interested in women's football, have written several articles on it and even attended the 2011 World Cup – however, I recognise that women's football (like non-League football, which I also follow) is less notable. Number 57 13:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

First of all the list shows Hibernian on position No. 45 of Europe. I would say at least the top 100 clubs are relevant for a sport that is played by millions of ladies in Europe. Furthermore Hibernian qualified for the UEFA Women's Champions League next season (is that not a reason to collect the squad information) - so they are not that unrelevant. The Vrouwen Eredivisie is scored as professional league, I'm close to an ex-player, I can tell you it's not professional from a money point of view just like in Scotland (maybe with Ajax and Twente for some players as a semi-pro option). Those leagues are interchangeable in money. But in merit the Scottish league has simply done better. By only taking the national team caps as relevant. You are making a Moldovan cap more important than a Scottish SWPL player (while the latter is more relevant). In my opinion you should pick the 30 top leagues of the world and do those first (i'm very much willing to help). Scotland should be part of that. Lets agree on such a list - that is more based on merit, that would make me happy. Are you as well starting delete all the hugh works that people for instance did on profiles of the W.League in Australia ? The last argument to not delete would be that it would demotivate me after all things I have added (but I understand in the ruthlessly factual Misplaced Pages world that is probably no argument :) NEW --> I see now all Glasgow City players are also under suspicion by Jmorrison230582 - so much of them will also be deleted. This is for the team that was in the quarter final of Europe some years ago. On the gender bias, I'm a man, so I'm not naturally biased to be biased (that is biased in your definition). What is clear is that we are not reporting on a sport like "Tiddly Winks". This is women's football, probably in the top 5 of most played women's sports, with millions of players. And we fail to even be able to cover one of the top 10 leagues in Europe with player profiles. Sorry for the long story, but something in me states I really have to disagree with this talk) Funafuti1978 (talk) 14:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think your idea is a non-starter. Choosing X number of leagues to allow player articles is WP:OR at its worst, not to mention a logistical nightmare as the rankings change. If you want to change the guideline, the place to start a conversation is at WT:FOOTY, then take it to the sports guideline talk page if there is consensus. As it stands, I hope you accept that this player fails our notability guidelines. Number 57 15:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Comment: I just added a few more references from Sky Sports, BBC, The Herald, and the Edinburgh Reporter to re-inforce WP:GNG. There's more out there if anyone is willing to contribute to the article rather than spending their time in another deletion discussion per WP:ATD. Hmlarson (talk) 16:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I accept because I have no other choice. But I will stop using Misplaced Pages. I was a one day enthusiastic about Misplaced Pages's capabilities of neutral coverage of the women's game. But I now found out that people are more focussed on getting rid of new contributions than on trying to help get women's football on in a quality matter. YOU WON (hope you are happy with it) ! BUT I'M GONE ! Your WP:OR is simply untrue, since I only added some start-up sources. You just don't know which sources in women's football are the solid ones. Further the whole 'professional league' discussion is a shambles. It's trying to scientifically find a frame to exclude women's football, which makes no sense to anyone that knows about women's football more deeply. Ciao !! talk) Funafuti1978 (talk) 16:27, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Funafuti1978: Deletion discussions are often frustrating - but I'd encourage you to keep contributing. Your contributions are appreciated - despite what some might want you to believe. This particular discussion isn't over and nobody has "won." I'd be happy to explain more if you'd like, leave me a message via my Talk page if you're interested. Hmlarson (talk) 16:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

(e/c) No, it's framed to exclude non-notable football. The fact that many women's football subjects fall into this is reflective of the fact that there is less interest in women's football compared to men's – for instance, in England the women's top division has an average attendance closest that of the sixth level of the men's pyramid (i.e. two levels lower than where we have the cut-off point for male player notability). Misplaced Pages reflects reality, and is not here to WP:Right great wrongs – this is neutrality. Number 57 16:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Your opinion will always be... your opinion. Hmlarson (talk) 17:22, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what that's meant to mean, but the differential between men's and women's football referred to above in terms of public interest is a fact. Number 57 18:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 11:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Delete - Fails NFOOTY as has not played senior international football nor played in a fully professional league. No indication that subject has garnered significant reliable coverage for any other achievements to satisfy GNG. The fundamental point here is that this player is someone, regardless of gender, who has played a mere handful of times for her club and only at junior level internationally. It seems from the article that she may well play senior international football at some point as she has already been part of a training squad, but that is some way off. The claims of GNG noted above are erroneous. All that has been provided in the article are routine match reports which discuss team performance rather than the player specifically and other articles where the subject is only of tangential interest. For editors interested in what GNG-meeting sources look like with specific reference to a female footballer who does not meet NFOOTY, they need look no further than this AfD, closed only a few days ago which contains several references to dedicated, lengthy articles on the player in question. Fenix down (talk) 12:22, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
• Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Women's football is not in the same position as men's, it doesn't get the same level of media or popular coverage, and its "stars" are not notable (unfortunately). GiantSnowman 17:30, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Clearly that notion is more important to some editors than Misplaced Pages policy. Good to note. 12 Hmlarson (talk) 17:51, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Women's football is of a broadly similar status to men's football in a few countries, particularly the USA, but this is not true of Scotland. The matches of the national team are fairly well covered by the main outlets (some games are televised on BBC Alba), so the international players (many of whom play professionally elsewhere) are reasonably well known. At club level, you get a weekly roundup of matches on the BBC Sport site (eg last weekend) and very little coverage of individual players. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 08:13, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• Delete: Unfortunately I can't see anything that indicates this person should have an article on Misplaced Pages. No third-party non-trivial coverage of the subject seems to exist. Even in specialist publications like Women's Soccer Scene and She Kicks I can't find anything other than her name listed in line-ups or passing mentions in match reports. I agree, as mentioned by Funafuti1978, that Misplaced Pages mirrors the general media's apathy towards women's football, and therefore has a gender bias in football articles, but independent reliable sources are needed for biographies of living persons, and if they don't exist neither can the article. @Funafuti1978 don't lose heart, as Hmlarson says, your contributions are greatly appreciated. Women's football coverage on Misplaced Pages is weak in places, and any help with improving that is always welcome, it just needs to be focused in the right area. I'm more than happy to help if you need any pointers, just leave a message on my talk page. — Gasheadsteve 13:25, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment First of all the fact that only men are discussing this, shows that Misplaced Pages, football and debate in general is still a men's world (sorry to bring the gender comment again - eventhough I am a man). Second of all it looks like discussing is more important here than making Misplaced Pages a bigger success. We are not talking about low level amateur players wanting to be covered on Misplaced Pages here, we are talking about top division players from one of the worlds top 25 women's soccer countries (FIFA Ranking / EWCR Ranking): Scotland. In my opinion players from the following top divisions should be covered:

North America: USA - NWSL (easy)

Asia: Japan - Nadeshiko League (doable) Korea Republic - WK League (doable) Australia - W.League (easy) China - Chinese Women's National League (tricky)

South America:

Brazil - Campeonato Brasileiro (easy) Chile - Primera Division (tricky) Colombia - Colombian League (tricky)

Europe:

Germany - Frauen Bundesliga (easy) France - Femeinine Division 1 (easy) England - WSL 1 (easy) Sweden - Damallsvenskan (easy) Norway - Toppserien (easy) Netherlands - Vrouwen Eredivisie (doable) Italy - Serie A (doable) Spain - Primera Division (doable) Denmark - Elitedivisionen (tricky) Switzerland - Nationalliga A (easy) Iceland - Urvalsdeild (easy) Scotland - SWPL (tricky) Russia - Supreme Division (doable) Ukraine - Premier League (easy) Austria - Frauenliga (easy) Poland - Ekstraliga (doable) Serbia - Prva Zvenska (tricky)

Players having at least one appearance in those competitions are mostly far better players than national team players from Vietnam, Jordan, Bulgaria, Faroe Islands, Haiti, Venezuela or Zambia who are featured and allowed to be covered on Misplaced Pages. What is unclear is that the money above merit argument for leagues is not there for national teams. Are those national teams all fully professional? Mostly they are absolutely not. Are they well covered in their countries, mostly absolutely not. So Misplaced Pages is favouring the real unprofessional above the semi professional. Then another thing, in the Vrouwen Eredivisie (a leagues someone decided to be professional on Misplaced Pages - which it is not - can someone finally explain why SWPl is an issue and Vrouwen Eredivisie not?) there are women teams that train more than their professional men counter parts. Which means the ladies loose more time on their sports while combining it with studies, while the men earn more for less work. Professionalism isn't only related to money - it's also related to the effort you make to reach your goal. It is quite clearly the men in this discussion have never even been close to women's football, than they would have known what time the ladies in these top divisions invest to reach the top. Funafuti1978 (talk) 14:40, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I think it would be best not to derail this specific AfD with a wider discussion on female football notability, that would be better at WT:FOOTY or WT:FPL, but I think you are focussing far too much on the subject specific guideline. You need to consider two points: firstly that the reason NFOOTY at least sort of works is that it acknowledges international footballers as being players, regardless of gender who have played at the highest possible level. Secondly, and this is the key thing, NFOOTY is always superceded by GNG. If an individual, regardless of gender is not receiving significant coverage specifically about them then it doesn't matter what level anyone perceives them to play at, the lack of coverage means they are not notable. The opposite is also therefore true by definition. Fenix down (talk) 14:52, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

What I agree with is that there needs to be a framework. I also understand the current framework works well for men's football - since if you guys say it does I believe so (all though some in the list are a bit arbitrary - most look right). But it is simply sure it does not work for women's football for all the above reasons - since only 1 league would really fit that model (which is NWSL - probably the only fully 'money-wise' professional league in women's football). But in what women need to do for it - there are far more professional leagues. And in strength it could be that on some days clubs in Bundesliga, Damallsvenskan, Feminine 1 would simply beat NWSL clubs (who are professional). So in my opinion the only measurement is merit and results. I picked a combinaton of the leagues from the top 25 teams on the FIFA Ranking (that have a organized league pyramid) and the highest performing leagues in the continents that have a club competition (Copa Libertadores Feminino and UEFA Women's Champions League - based on EWCR). That should be good enough to cover the world of women's football in a proper way. If we would have a sensible rule I would have defended it with you, but the current rule qualifies only 1 league (NWSL). And next to that everybody is breaking the rule online - see Vrouwen Eredivisie profiles, W. League, Bundesliga profiles etc. Which is the best proof the rule does not work. Or you need to do a hugh clean-up operation. Then on your second point, the amount of articles about players. I think that is not the biggest problem, I just did not do a full research on those players yet. Women's football at a good level is well covered in regional and country-wide newspapers - but not in all countries those newspapers have good online sources. Furthermore UEFA, FIFA, FAs, official club websites should be trustworthy sources. Funafuti1978 (talk) 15:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• Delete reluctantly. Misplaced Pages goes on reliable sources, and unfortunately those reliable sources don't give much coverage to women's football- that's a problem with the coverage, and not with Misplaced Pages being biased. If people want to debate the guidelines, then that should be done at the appropriate venue, for example WT:NSPORTS or WT:FOOTY. However, we should be applying the guidelines at the moment, which say that she doesn't pass WP:NFOOTY, and I don't believe she passes WP:GNG either. I also don't agree with the logic of "she plays in a country's top league, and is therefore notable"- it's simply too broad. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Stop the discussion. Delete the thing. You already have hurt too much. You have made it again.

• Keep: This is most certainly part of a wider discussion on female football notability. Once again, Misplaced Pages erases women as irrelevant and their accomplishments less notable. It's a circular argument; women are not notable because there s not a lot of coverage, there is not a lot of coverage because women are not notable. Time to stop this nonsense. Within women's soccer, of the individual is highly ranked, she's notable. End of story. Montanabw 04:34, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Montanabw: The idea that playing in a top division makes you notable is not credible, as it would mean players in the top division in countries like Andorra or San Marino are notable. We have deleted probably hundreds of articles on male players from the League of Ireland Premier Division (the top level league in Ireland) because the league is not fully-professional (one is in the examples of AfDs I gave above) – this is not something focussed on getting rid of articles on female players. Number 57 12:19, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Keep: Highly ranked and therefore notable. VanEman (talk) 17:34, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @VanEman: Being highly ranked does not make someone notable if the league or sport they play does not confer notability on its players. This is the whole point of the WP:NFOOTY guideline (otherwise we end up with tonnes of articles on semi-professional and amateur players). Number 57 18:18, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
    • If Number 57 wants to keep treating a "guideline" as a hard and fast rule and death sentence, why bother going through the exercise of having experienced editors like us use our good judgment as we look at these articles?VanEman (talk) 18:40, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
      • @VanEman:The point of a guideline is to show what community consensus on notability is – and that is that players that play semi-professional football are not notable. Do you have a guideline or policy-based reason for your judgement? Number 57 18:51, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Keep I'm tired of the WP:BIAS and misogyny where we develop guidelines designed primarily by males to minimize the article for top female players compared to top male players. Plays in top division of football in Scotland. Nfitz (talk) 20:37, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Nfitz: As you are aware, we delete numerous articles on male players in top divisions because they don't meet the criteria either. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that the guideline was specifically designed to minimise the number of eligible female players? Also, it's a shame that we can't get through a debate about a female footballer without accusations of misogyny, chauvinism etc; perhaps a new version of Godwin's law is required... Number 57 20:51, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The evidence is clear, simply from the much larger number of article for current male footballers compared to females. The guidelines that let this happen are misogynistic, and those that defend them are misogynists. It's 2016 - just because the UK is backwards, doesn't mean we should be. Nfitz (talk) 21:06, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

@Nfitz: There are more articles on male players because there are more professional male players. The same is the case for politicians because there are more male politicians. Regardless of what year this is, this is reality. Also, please withdraw your personal attack. Number 57 21:09, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

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