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• Refining the administrator elections process
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Springee campaigning

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User reported: Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Diff: 21:57, 24 March 2016

Inappropriate notification. Non-neutral wording of notice. Campaigning; attempt to sway the person reading the notice.

Previous reports of Springee for canvassing

1. 2 December 2015: WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive907#User_Springee_Canvassing by Scoobydunk
2. 11 March 2016: WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive917#March 2016 User:Springee canvassing

Respectfully request:

1. administrator removal of inappropriate non-neutral personal comment portion of RfC notice at WT:WikiProject Automobiles#RfC: Reception; rankings in independent surveys and ratings of quality, reliability, and customer satisfaction; and
2. warning to Springee reminding of our project's behavioral guideline WP:CANVASS, in particular our community norm regarding the need for neutrality in notifications.

Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:41, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

The above statement are likely from a banned editor who has attempted to harass both Ricky81682 and myself over the past six months or so. Springee (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

• Allow me to be the first one to say that this is going too far. You obviously have a problem with Springee that you are unwilling to address. Besides seeing a failure to discuss the wording with Springee, I personally do not see any violation of WP:CANVASS. The only way that the wording is not neutral is if you look for a personal attack in the first sentence, which is absurd. While the wording could have been "An editor has raised question to...." The comment as it stands (I'm not sure why the editor responsible for the below RfC failed to notify this board.), is by no way something deserving of ANI. -- The Voidwalker 17:40, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

I am requesting that someone other than myself, if they agree, please remove that first sentence from the notice, and remind an editor of our norm of neutral notice wording. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

• I don't see any canvassing either. The wording was simply "I don't know why the editor didn't notice the wikiproject". It wasn't any accusation at all. Frankly, there's no requirement that someone notify a project about an RFC occurring at a page within it especially since it does show up at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Automobiles#Article_alerts. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:28, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Yes, the RfC was already on the project page, which explains why talk was not notified. Yes, no one is required to notify. May I respectfully request that you take another quick look at the notice with an eye toward specifically campaigning, using non-neutral wording of a notice to sway respondents, by slyly attempting to make an issue of motives? Again, I seek only a little clean-up and a warning from a third party, perhaps a reminder of the availability of Template:Please see? Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 19:05, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Proposed Interaction Ban between Springee and HughD

I propose a 1 year two-way interaction ban between HughD and Springee.

Reasoning: I recalled seeing an ANI post like this just days ago (found here) and upon searching "springee hugh" in the noticeboards, I was appalled by how much I found and how recently it all was. Even today an AN3 case was closed (1). These two report each other to various noticeboards far too frequently (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ) or end up proposing sanctions for each other (, 8). Even Ricky81682 proposed such an interaction ban back on 25 September 2015 (). Both editors have most recently been on Ford Pinto and Chrysler and Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. and associated talk pages all month, raking up dozens of edits. They appear to have followed each other to these pages, as well as other pages back in January (Interaction timelines: Ford Pinto interactions, Talk:Ford Pinto interactions, Chrysler interactions, Talk:Chrysler interactions, Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. interactions, Talk:Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. interactions, ExxonMobil interactions, Talk:ExxonMobil interactions, ExxonMobil climate change controversy ineteractions, Talk:ExxonMobil climate change controversy interactions). In sum, these two appear to follow each other, report each other, and cannot edit constructive together. They cause disruption together and need to be separated. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:16, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Something needs doing, and this is probably the only thing that will do it. -- The Voidwalker 20:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
• Traveling: I've been traveling for the past few days and have had limited internet access. I would ask for an opportunity to reply before any sanctions or blocks are applied to my account. Thank you. Springee (talk) 22:25, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

While we're waiting, can someone please pitch in with a little clean-up of the totally unnecessary, non-neutral, personal comment prefacing the RfC notice at WT:WikiProject Automobiles#RfC: Reception; rankings in independent surveys and ratings of quality, reliability, and customer satisfaction? After all, an RfC is one of our important mechanisms for de-escalating content disputes, please can it get off the ground free of a cloud of early non-neutral notification. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 23:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Thank you, EvergreenFir for suggesting this - I've been watching Springee and HughD carry on for months now, the bad blood between them has been seriously disruptive across multiple articles. Both users have indeed followed the other to unrelated articles they'd never edited before, and engaged in some seriously disruptive behavior in a bid to win whatever argument they're currently having. It's been clear to me for some time that both of them are basically trying to goad the other one into further bad behavior in the hopes that they'll be blocked - despite repeated pleas from admins and other users (including myself) to just move on and leave each other alone. Their conflict has resulted in edit wars and train-wreck talk page disputes across too many articles. It's way past time admins put a stop to this. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:38, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - I would like to avoid having editing restrictions placed on my account. I asked several editors for help related to this issue (Fyddlestix , Callanecc , EdJohnson and Ricky81682 ) specifically because I didn’t want this to turn into an edit war. I’ve been involved in automotive and closely related topics since establishing my account and certainly didn't follow HughD to these topics. Previously I have said that I do not wish to engage HughD in new topics and I have stuck to that. Please note that I have been involved with the Pinto topic since last year (3 edits not realizing I was logged out at the time, the Grimshaw article is about a Ford Pinto fire) and the Chrysler topic since last December. I think it is unfortunate that HughD would choose to edit those topics given my obvious involvement and his statements regarding our previous disagreements. That said, before any restrictions are applied to my account related to these edits I would ask that other editors on those two topics be given a voice here (NickCT and Greglocock on the Pinto talk page, CZmarlin and Historianbuff on the Chrysler page). I would also ask that editors consider this recent topic on the Pinto Talk page regarding HughD’s edits. I will happily, voluntarily and if need be unilaterally agree to a 3 month interaction ban with HughD and that during that time we avoid any topic which we were not editing prior to March 1 of this year. I do not feel that it is fair or just to sanction my account for these editing issues given the stark difference in article page feedback between HughD and myself. Please note I am still traveling and will have limited internet access over the next day or two. Springee (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose at least so far as as pages which Springee has long edited. Regarding seeking out interaction, i dunno one way or the other, but it's a frequent temptation to any good editor to seek out and repair damage to other articles. That can often be found simply by tracking a particular editor's ...I dunno. "Contributions" looks like a euphemism, in some cases. Anmccaff (talk) 21:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - I think topic bans would be an easier way to get at this. HughD needs to be topic banned from Ford Pinto where he is editing disruptively. Start with that page, then look at others both editors are on. Whoever was there second should be banned from the page. NickCT (talk) 21:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
• Pinging Callanecc, who on 18 October 2015 asked Springee:

  There's no ban violation there. You need to avoid this in the future, I can't see how you would have found this unless you were monitoring Hugh's edits. Therefore stop doing that and avoid commenting on Hugh's edits.

Though an administrator, Callanecc was but an arbitration clerk at the time, and the opportunity for a voluntary interaction ban was unfortunately ignored. Hugh (talk) 23:30, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

• Pinging Scoobydunk, who on 14 September 2015 reported Springee here at ANI at for Hounding and Tendentious editing of me and others. Hugh (talk) 23:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support - EvergreenFir, thank you for your proposal. I believe your proposal will greatly improve my enjoyment of contributing to our project. I am, I think rightly, proud of my good articles, and my article space percentage (70%), but both have suffered mightily since Springee made me his project at the Americans for Prosperity good article effort in Spring 2015. May I please point out, I am not socking as the IP you link to as suggesting a sanction for Springee, and though not the main issue here, to be fair, there is hardly any sort of equivalency between my reports of Springee and Springee's prodigious noticeboard volume. May I respectfully ask that my colleagues decline consideration of voluntary alternatives, and decline attempts by some to use this noticeboard filing, originally over one incident of non-neutral notice, to fashion some kind of interaction ban hybrid with a topic ban, via drawing a complex armistice line through Misplaced Pages subjects. As far as waiting for holiday travel, if my colleagues here want to hold off until they see yet another wall of text arguing why Hugh should be banned, fine, but I'd just as soon get on with getting on with what best I can tell is a simple reasonable measured proposal. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 00:36, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you again to EvergreenFir for your simple reasonable proportional proposal. Thank you to my colleagues for your support of the proposal. I have read and understand interactions bans and support the proposal.

EvergreenFir wrote: "These two report each other to various noticeboards far too frequently or end up proposing sanctions for each other." May I clarify and quantify.

Springee has reported HughD 7 8 times:

1. AE 27 December 2015
2. AE 11 April 2016
3. ANI 31 July 2015, proposed topic ban
4. ANI 6 August 2015, proposed topic ban
5. 3RN 22 August 2015
6. 3RN 26 October 2015
7. 3RN 7 March 2016
8. 3RN 12 March 2016, proposed topic ban

Springee has previously proposed topic bans for me three times, twice an at ANI and once at 3RN; four times including this current ANI report. I have reported Springee twice, at ANI, 11 March 2016 and the current report, and the harshest sanction I have proposed for Springee is above in this report: a warning reminding of the importance of neutrality in notifying and a reminder of the availability of the "please see" template. Springee's project for going on a year now has been getting HughD banned. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 05:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

HughD, you should also mention that in the last year you have been blocked five times, been topic blocked and had that blocked expanded. Perhaps the number of reports is just reflective of your editing behaviors. If you think I'm so mean why did you follow me to the Pinto and Chrysler topics? Springee (talk) 11:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. I don't think an IBAN would work. Although I honestly don't see a problem with the content of Springee's edits, and I do see a serious problem with many of HughD's edits, I think the only solution which would reduce disruption is to ban one or both of the editors from Misplaced Pages, or just ban both editors from any article and talk page where they have caused disruption, either being able to immediately appeal in the unlikely event that one is not at fault. Springee seems unable to avoid taunting Hugh, and Hugh seems unable to avoid making absurd statements about sources and policy.

  As for me, I have actively avoided editing in topics where Hugh is likely to be found. My enjoyment of Misplaced Pages, and I believe Misplaced Pages's accuracy, would be greatly improved if Hugh were banned. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

• Seconded re HD. I oppose any action on S but would ask him to back off a little William M. Connolley (talk) 07:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm not sure if an IBAN would address the underlying issues. HughD and Springee are by far the two most active editors on the articles they are currently sparring at, Ford Pinto and Chrysler. If they can't interact on the talk pages of these articles, I'm afraid they'll just edit war in article space instead. However, it's not like their interactions on the talk page have ever yielded anything constructive. It seems quite clear that HughD followed Springee to automotive articles. Springee first edited Ford Pinto on January 11, 2016, while HughD made his first edit on March 2, 2016 (for Chrysler, Springee's first edit was in July 2015 and Hugh's in March 2016). HughD seems to be on a sort of revenge campaign after being topic banned from U.S. political articles. His newfound interest in automobiles, which is an area Springee edited in prior to HughD's involvement, seems unlikely to be a coincidence. It looks more like calculated aggravation. I would know something about Hugh's penchant for appropriating his least favorite editors' interests, as several months ago he bizarrely plagiarized my statement of editorial interests from my user page. I don't think Hugh is interested in US Weekly or cars. I think he's interested in trying to make the editing lives of his perceived foes less pleasant. So yes, I'd support an IBAN as a first step, I suppose, but I think Hugh's continued involvement on automotive pages is highly likely to render him topic banned from that area as well. Safehaven86 (talk) 15:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

The "calculated aggravation" works both ways here - while it is less recent, Springee has done just as much (and as blatant) following of HughD - I detailed some of that at 3RR and at AE months ago. Check the diffs, some of the harassment was pretty severe/blatant. More recently, Springee has posted eight times to HughD's talk page since HughD specifically asked him not to post there (ie "banned" him from his talk page) in December, and devoted considerable effort and time into trying to get HughD sanctioned (multiple reports, contacting individual admins directly, etc). Both of these editors have been bearing a grudge against the other one for a long time now. Fyddlestix (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Springee persistent violations of WP:NOBAN despite repeated reminders:

• 19 October 2015 First notice HughD WP:NOBAN request to Springee "Do not post on my talk page" at User talk:Springee
• 19 October 2015, 20 October 2015, 20 October 2015, 21 October 2015, 21 October 2015, 22 October 2015, 25 October 2015, 26 October 2015 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
• 26 October 2015 Second notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
• 22 December 2015 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
• 22 December 2015 Third notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
• 23 December 2015, 26 December 2015, 26 December 2015, 27 January 2016, 2 March 2016 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
• 2 March 2016 Fourth notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
• 7 March 2016 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
• 7 March 2016 Fifth notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
• 11 March 2016, 18 March 2016 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
• 18 March 2016 Sixth notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
• 11 April 2016 Springee posts to User talk:HughD

Thank you for your attention to this harassing editor behavior. Hugh (talk) 17:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comments: I would like to address some of the comments here. I appreciate Safehaven86’s comments about HughD’s editing behaviors and following me to the Pinto and Chrysler topics. Like Safehaven86, HughD added an interest area of mine to his home page after the fact. HughD’s first Chrysler edit was reverting me (removal, added back).

Fyddlestix has my respect and I contacted him for help related to these issues. I do not agree with him in this case. Fyddlestix mentioned his comments in a previous AE . My reply is here. The wikihounding accusations last fall, though they didn't stick, made me wary of ANY actions may be seen as following HughD to new topics. HughD clearly followed me to the automotive topics. Regarding posts to HughD's talk page, consider what they were. Notifications of admin discussions are a requirement. I asked him to please watch the 3RR/warring hoping to avoid bigger issues. One post because it was clear he followed me to the Pinto article and one in frustration (but not attack). These are not attempts to provoke.

HughD’s Pinto edits have clearly upset other editors as well as myself. 250 edits at a rate of ~50 per day when many editors were asking him to slow down is disruptive . Chrysler page editors are also concerned about HughD’s edits as well . My efforts were appriciated.

I think Fyddlestix’s POV is based on the past, not the recent issues. I want to assure him this is not a case of me trying to provoke HughD but the other way around and rather blatant at that. Like Arthur Rubin I had grown tired of dealing with HughD and wanted to move back into primarily automotive topics. I was unhappy to find that HughD followed me to those topics. I do not believe it would be just to sanction my account because HughD decided to follow me. That said, I am more than willing to voluntarily and if need be unilaterally agree to an interaction ban. I would suggest that HughD respond in kind with a voluntary interaction ban and also agree to leave the Pinto and Chrysler related topics. If HughD feels I violate that voluntary ban then he has ample ammo for an ANI. Given his actions on the Pinto and Chrysler pages I would support topic blocks but I think a voluntary agreement to abandon the topics (hence my future work in the area would not be seen as an interaction) should be acceptable to us both. I’ve shown that I can stick to my word and will do so again. Again, I do not wish to be sanctioned because HughD followed me here. Springee (talk) 03:06, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Springee claims to have forsworn following after his previous report to WP:ANI:

I’ve been involved in automotive and closely related topics since establishing my account and certainly didn't follow HughD to these topics. Previously I have said that I do not wish to engage HughD in new topics and I have stuck to that.

and

The wikihounding accusations last fall, though they didn't stick, made me wary of ANY actions may be seen as following HughD to new topics...I think Fyddlestix’s POV is based on the past, not the recent issues. I want to assure him this is not a case of me trying to provoke HughD...I’ve shown that I can stick to my word and will do so again.

Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Recent incidents of Springee following HughD, with diffs (the following list is focused for brevity to incidents of Springee following HughD, when Springee's first edit to the article was to revert or undo HughD in article space, and does not include following to talk or noticeboards or following when Springee's first edit to the article was tagging):

• 14 September 2015 Springee reported at WP:ANI for for Hounding and Tendentious editing, report opening with 8 articles to which Springee followed HughD
• 15 October 2015 Springee's 1st edit at American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity was to revert HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015)
• 15 October 2015 Springee's 1st edit at Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow was to revert HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 7 March 2015)
• 15 October 2015 Springee's 1st edit at Beacon Center of Tennessee was to undo HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 30 September 2015)
• 18 October 2015 Admin asked Springee to stop following HughD and to stop commenting on HughD's edits
• 12 November 2015 Springee's 1st edit at American Petroleum Institute was to revert HughD after 13 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015)
• 21 December 2015 Springee's 1st edit at ExxonMobil was to revert HughD after 5 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015)
• 22 January 2016 Springee's 1st edit at ExxonMobil climate change controversy was an undo of HughD after 3 minutes (HughD 1st edit was 22 January 2016)
• 4 March 2016 Springee's 1st edit at Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. was to revert HughD after 3 hours (HughD 1st edit was 2 March 2016)

Respectfully suggest to my colleagues that voluntary concessions are unlikely to be effective in curbing this disruptive following behavior. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Noted. However, because of Hugh's frequent violations of content policies, Springee should be allowed to comment on such violations, even if he/she is not allowed to revert them. So this would be a somewhat modified IBAN. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Why would a voluntary, two way IBAN not work HughD? Are you afraid you won't hold to it? What evidence to you have that I can't be trusted? Springee (talk) 04:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Above, Springee misrepresented his following behavior, claiming he stopped in the Fall of 2015. Below, Springee wrote on 28 March 2016: "I would like to start by pointing out that HughD's current topic block was the result of dishonestly presenting his own actions..." Do we have a policy or guideline or community norm regarding honesty in statements in support of a proposed sanction in behavioral noticeboard filings? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:46, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

HughD, Springee's interpretation is the same as mine. As I was still assuming good faith on your part, I would have said that his block was the result of making an unbelievable assertion in regard his own actions, without saying it was dishonest. With your followups, it was either dishonest or indication of such inability to understand facts as to constitute a WP:CIR violation. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:53, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Springee followed HughD to a GA review. The above list highlights article space following behavior after Springee's claimed conversion. Other colleagues, including Scoobydunk at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive901#Reporting user:Springee for Hounding and Tendentious editing and Fyddlestix at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive187#HughD, have compiled comprehensive lists if the extensive following behavior prior to the claimed conversion, thank you very much to them for their support in addressing this long-overdue behavioral issue.

But one earlier episode of Springee following me is particularly telling of Springee's priorities: 11 August 2015 Springee followed me to the Good Article Review of Bernard Stone, a recently passed Chicago alderman, olav ha-sholom, of which article I was the principle author and GA nominator, during collaboration to address issues from the GA review, to argue against GA. Thank you to all for your careful consideration of addressing this disruptive behavior. Hugh (talk) 15:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Additional evidence of Springee following HughD In support of the proposed interaction ban, may I respectfully submit for consideration additional evidence (again, in the interest of brevity, the following list is limited to article space, and to where Springee's first edit was a revert or undo of HughD):

• 18 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change was to revert HughD after 2 hours
• 19 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley was to undo HughD after 1 day
• 19 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to The Heartland Institute was to revert HughD after 1 day
• 26 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to FreedomWorks was to revert HughD after 3 days
• 27 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to Chicago-style politics was to revert HughD after 20 hours

The record is clear that following and harassing HughD is a significant distinguishing characteristic of Springee's editorial behavior of the past year. Thank you to the community for your thoughtful consideration of the proposed interaction ban. Hugh (talk) 16:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Additional recent evidence of Springee following HughD

• 9 April 2016 Springee follows HughD to WP:Third opinion to disrupt dispute resolution at Talk:Ford Pinto.
• 9 April 2016 Springee follows HughD to History of Ford Motor Company to post an evaluation of an editor at article talk.
• 11 March 2016, 11 March 2016, 11 March 2016 Springee disruption of WP:Request for comment dispute resolution at Talk:Ford Pinto.

Please note Springee's focus on the editor rather than the edits and Springee's relentless efforts to disrupt legitimate dispute resolution steps.

Respectfully request 2-way interaction ban as proposed by uninvolved colleagues. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Addiitional recent campaigning by Springee

Sadly disruptive editing continues, undetered by an open ANI filing, and only emboldened by the lack of action on reported actionable behavior.

• 10 April 2016 Springee campaigning.
• 11 April 2016 Springee campaigning, as IP, while logged out, to evade detection WP:STEALTH.
• 11 April 2016 Springee campaigning via mail; 11 April 2016 mail notice deleted after 3 minutes WP:STEALTH.

Please counsel Springee away from their HughD project. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment to HughD's accusations:HughD's accusations beg a question. If I have been so mean to him, why follow me here? It's not like automotive articles have been a topic space of HughD's. If he just wanted to be left alone doesn't following me to a space I've been in for a long time and he's never been in seem like he was looking to start a fight, a fight I didn't engage in per the views of the Pinto and Chrysler editors. I’m sorry but HughD’s claims above are very misleading if not outright dishonest. I would like to start by pointing out that HughD's current topic block was the result of dishonestly presenting his own actions in a previous ANI as part of an AE request against another editor. Please keep that in mind when reading his accounting of events. To avoid a wall of text I have used the collapse feature. He is taking a laughable accusation of canvasing (later changed to campaigning) and trying to turn it into a dumping ground of old accusations. Why mention these issues months after the fact? Sadly I believe this is a plan on HughD's part. If he gets an IBAN then I believe he assumes that will result in an effective Pinto and Chrysler topic block for me. Regardless of outcome I would ask admins to consider the fact that the editors replying from the recent topics have been supportive of my participation on the topics in question. No editors have been supportive of HughD's involvement with the articles in question. While I believe a voluntary IBAN would solve the issue (not sure why HughD is against such a thing other than malice) it would be unjust to block me from automotive topics because HughD chose to follow me to those areas with the intent to be disruptive.

Regardless of HughD's misleading accusations of past wrong, if I am as mean to him as he claims and hurt his editing enjoyment that much, why follow me to the automotive article space at all? I don't think a single editor has accused me of taking a bad step when editing the Pinto or Chrysler related articles (other than Hugh himself). It would again seem very unfair to sanction me for the disruptions Hugh has caused on these articles. Springee (talk) 03:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully request the community please proceed with a close with the imposition of the above proposed two-way interaction ban, as the expressed consensus of uninvolved colleagues. Two-way interaction bans are simple to monitor and effective in preventing disruption. Enough is enough. It is long overdue. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC) Respectfully request imposition of the two-way interaction ban proposed above by uninvolved colleagues. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Topic ban user User:HughD from Ford Pinto

Moved from another ANI thread. --QEDK (T 📖 C)

User:HughD has been disruptively editing our Ford Pinto article. Could an admin review this discussion and see whether a topic ban would be appropriate? NickCT (talk) 21:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment The still-active discussion above (titled "Springee Campaigning") also concerns HughD and the pinto dispute. Just sayin' Fyddlestix (talk) 22:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

@Fyddlestix: - Thanks. Yeah. I noticed. I think that discussion is discussing an interaction ban, right? I just think HughD should get topic banned from Ford Pinto. I and others think that HughD has to get topic banned from Ford Pinto. That justifies a second discussion, no? NickCT (talk) 22:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

What is your evidence for disruptive editing at Ford Pinto? Hugh (talk) 13:59, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Support banning User:HughD: It's not worth trying to edit the Ford Pinto article with HughD participating. He's basically destroyed any pretense of unbiased editing, and he continues to seriously distort the article.842U (talk) 17:42, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Oppose a Tban, as the problem extends far beyond just one article or one topic. Conflict between HughD and Springee has made a mess on a much broader range of articles and talk pages, ranging from Americans for Prosperity to Chicago-style politics to Ford Pinto. Topic banning one or both editors from a single article is going to do nothing to fix the larger issue here. Fyddlestix (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Fyddlestix: - re "Topic banning one or both editors from a single article is going to do nothing to fix the larger issue here." - Maybe not. But it would be a start.... NickCT (talk) 07:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Support with condition As noted above I don't agree with Fyddlestix in this case. HughD's 50 edits per day before the article was locked, refusal to accept opinions from 3rd party editors and the clear consensus among the other editors that HughD is a problem mean that at least this part of the discussion is not about me. That said, I proposed a two way voluntary interaction ban between HughD and myself that would also include voluntarily leaving the automotive pages in question. Thus it would result in HughD leaving the page but no sanctions would be levied against his account. Please note, tomorrow is a travel day for me and I will have limited web access Springee (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Oppose The appropriate venue for the resolution of a content dispute is article talk, not a noticeboard. A civil disagreement regarding content, supported by noteworthy reliable sources, policy, and guideline, is not disruptive. Involved editors are respectfully requested to bring their article content proposals and best noteworthy reliable sources to Talk:Ford Pinto. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

@HughD: - This purpose of this conversation is not to discuss content. NickCT (talk) 14:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose per Fyddlestix's reasoning. Neither article nor the topic are the cause of the disruption. Removing an editor from it will not mitigate that disruption and only serve as a punitive measure. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:56, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: - Not sure how removing a disruptive editor from a particular article would not mitigate the disruption that editor was creating on that article. Seems like it would mitigate it quite effectively! NickCT (talk) 17:40, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't think the article is the issue. If HughD is being disruptive on Ford Pinto specifically and only on that article, I'd agree. But they're are other articles that be being simultaneously disrupted. A tban from one of those articles only makes no sense. From my reading of the edit histories the interaction of the two editors is the main problem, so I'd rather try an iban first and see if the disruption stops. It almost certainly won't stop just from a tban from Ford Pinto. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: - I agree it isn't the main issue, but it's certainly part of the issue. Tackling it would be tackling part of the issue.... What if we don't get an interaction ban? Is Ford Pinto still to suffer? NickCT (talk) 18:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I think the legitimate fear is that HughD or I would follow one another to yet another article and the cycle would repeat. An IBAN (voluntary or not) addresses part of the issue in that neither editor would engage in an edit war if they aren't allowed to interact. A standard IBAN would block Hugh and I from editing any article where we had previously interacted. That would stop HughD from editing the Pinto article. That he seems happy about such an outcome supports the view of several editors that he was only there to wikihound me. This is why I've proposed a modified IBAN with a March 1 interaction date. It would in effect rewind the clock while still protecting the current and future articles. Springee (talk) 19:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Please see our project's policy WP:IBAN. You wrote: "A standard IBAN would block Hugh and I from editing any article where we had previously interacted." You need not fear being unable to contribute to your articles. You are being asked by your colleagues to avoid interacting with HughD; the proposed interaction ban does not ask you to avoid any articles; our project's interaction ban policy involves no concept of "who was there first." Our project's interaction ban policy states that "A no-fault two-way interaction ban is often a quick and painless way to prevent a dispute from causing further distress or wider disruption." Please help prevent further distress and wider disruption. Please join uninvolved editors in support of the proposed interaction ban. It's for the best for you, for me, and for our project. Don't be afraid; if it doesn't work, I think you know how to use ANI. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:02, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment HughD's bad behavior might have been due to my presence at the Ford Pinto and Chrysler articles. That doesn't excuse his behavior at those articles. When the editors unanomously (minus HughD) request the blocking of an editor that has to mean something. Does anyone believe his talk page interactions don't violate WP:TEND? Regardless of why he chose to edit war and be disruptive the fact is he was. Conversely the editors involved with those articles have not accused me of any editorial violations and have supported me here.

I find it disappointing that HughD seems intent on blood rather than an amicable agreement. Unless he thinks he is unable to adhere to a voluntary IBAN why request an official one? I would like to point out that if HughD’s involvement was calculated aggression as Safehaven86 suggests (and I agree) then his desire for an interaction ban would make sense. His participation on those pages, disruptive though it may be, would effectively block my participation on articles that I’ve been involved with for some time. I suspect this is why he seems to be campaigning for mutual sanctions.

Regarding HughD's editing on the pages in question, HughD added 250 edits to the Pinto article alone in the ~10 days it was open. Several editors asked him to slow down and discuss changes and expressed concern in a 3RR complaint . HughD’s behavior at Ford Pinto and Chrysler had many marks of WP:TEND editing.

I think it is very clear that HughD has been detrimental to both articles. That he feels I might have been unfair to him in the past is no excuse for disruptive editing in (to him) new articles. I would prefer an automotive topic block but at least a block related to the Pinto and Chrysler topics. Springee (talk) 03:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, you have never commented in concurrence of an edit of mine; your wall of text above documents your obsession.

You revert, without discussion, myself and others, claiming no consensus, even when the consensus against is as small as yourself:

• 28 August 2015 Springee undo of HughD at Chicago-style politics after 16 minutes with edit summary "...not developed with consensus. Please get consensus for this change"
• 8 September 2015 Springee revert of HughD at Halftime in America after 2 minutes with edit summary "Undue tag was removed without discussion or consent."

Numerous additional diffs of this behavior available upon request. Please see WP:TEND: "One who deletes the pertinent cited additions of others." Our colleague Scoobydunk brought this behavior of yours to your attention and to the attention of our community on 14 September 2015 here at ANI in his report Reporting user:Springee for Hounding and Tendentious editing. Your least favorite essay is WP:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus".

Then, when I propose specific neutral, relevant contributions at article talk, laid out supported by multiple noteworthy reliable sources with excerpts, you report that at ANI as tendentious! Your project is to ban HughD WP:NOTHERE.

Adding pertinent, well-referenced content is not tendentious. Proposing well-referenced neutral relevant content at article talk is not tendentious. Disagreeing with you is not tendentious.

Please support our colleagues in the interaction ban. It's what's best. You will be happier. Hugh (talk) 16:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

No evidence of disruptive editing. Civil disagreement regarding article content, supported with citation to policy, guidelines, and multiple noteworthy reliable sources, is not disruptive. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Viewing Talk:Ford_Pinto#Pursue_Topic_Ban_for_HughD.3F as battleground behavior and an attempt to campaigning seeking presupport for a topic ban, I can't support this with out a similar topic ban for the op.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Springee's project

Oh, look. Yet another noticeboard wall of text on why HughD should be banned. I hope no one feels had for waiting for "traveling."

Springee's project is HughD. User:Springee is little more than a single purpose account, with just enough automotive and Southern Strategy for cover. Springee's article space percentage is 18%; this one essay is a larger contribution to Misplaced Pages than all his recent article space contributions combined. Springee followed me, to ExxonMobil, then to the POV split ExxonMobil climate change controversy, until ExxonMobil climate change controversy became his top edited article, and Chicago-style politics his fifth top edited article! Regulars to these noticeboards recognize Springee as a noticeboard wall-of-text specialist who perceives prestige in successful proposed sanctions.

Springee claims to be a humble automotive writer:

I had grown tired of dealing with HughD and wanted to move back into primarily automotive topics.

I respectfully ask my colleagues to support our colleague Springee in their self-actualization effort. Please take the HughD project away from them. Please support an interaction ban. We may enable a great flowering of high quality neutral automotive coverage in our project. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Question for HughD, if you think I've been so mean to you why did you follow me to the Pinto and Chrysler articles? I'm happy to agree to an interaction ban, we avoid mutual topics from prior to March 1 and agree to not interact with one another on future topics. Seems like an easy solution and we don't even need an admin to force it if we simply, mutually agree to it here and now. Are we in agreement? Springee (talk) 14:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

If you had "voluntarily" stopped following me, 14 September 2015 when you were reported to ANI for following, or 18 October 2015 when Callanecc asked you to, we would not be here.

The reporting editor, the reported editor, the proposer, and uninvolved commenters are in consensus here on the close: please put the interaction ban on the books for future reference. Thank you for your support. Hugh (talk) 14:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Please answer the question Hugh, why would you follow me to the Chrysler and Pinto articles if you wanted to be left alone? Springee (talk) 16:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Look, if you're both ok with a voluntary IBAN, great - let's do it. If both parties agree to that then there's not much more to be said. But the long walls of text and bold text arguing isn't doing either of you any favors here. You're just demonstrating that you can't work together without turning every conversation into a mutual vendetta. I understand that you both think the other isn't fit to edit Misplaced Pages and are fishing for stronger sanctions, or are at least trying to get recognition that you were "in the right," but that's very unlikely to happen here (assuming the following and goading stops now). Just take the Iban and let it go, before you exhaust the community's patience. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully request close, with community-initiated 1-year, two-way interaction ban, as proposed; under standard, simple well-understood, well-documented, easy to enforce terms as per widely accepted project policy WP:Interaction ban. Thank you to all for your time and attention and patience. Hugh (talk) 16:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Fyddlestix, thank you again for your prodigious patience in attempting to moderating this closure discussion with a gentle hand so we can all move on to improving the encyclopedia. You wrote: "you both think the other isn't fit to edit Misplaced Pages and are fishing for stronger sanctions"; may I clarify, I am not now nor have I ever sought to ban Springee from anything; I came here in good faith seeking nothing more than a warning regarding notification neutrality. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 21:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm totally OK with a voluntary 2-way IBAN through April 1, 2017 applied to all article pages where we have interacted and with a March 1st exclusion deadline for future interactions. This will allow me to continue the work I was doing in automotive articles (Pinto, Chrysler) but forbid edits to articles where Hugh and I previously interacted (exp ExxonMobil) and forbids future edits (exp if HughD edits a future Coke family site I can not). I agree to the above. Springee (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Springee, please support the proposed 2-way interaction ban, without conditions, as requested above by our uninvolved colleagues. It is a reasonable, measured proposal. It is the simplest thing that might work. It is clearly what's best for you, for me, and for our project. It is a established remedy with a record of effectiveness in curbing disruption. You are in little position to dictate sidecar terms given your well-documented year-long history of following and harassment. We know you feel you deserve a topic ban on HughD after your efforts on your above walls of text, and we know you feel anyone about whom such walls of text can be written must be deserving of a topic ban. However, your recalcitrance on this proposal and your insistence on a topic ban are only serving to further demonstrate to our community your ownership issues and your obsession with your project of banning HughD. No one is trying to prevent you from contributing constructively to any articles. On behalf of our community, may I respectfully ask that you please accept the proposed 2-way interaction ban; you will be happier. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:21, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I think only a modified IBAN would make sense. Modifications:

1. Each is banned from articles where the other is a major contributor. If both are major contributors, they are both banned, but A may appeal if A claims that B is only a major contributor in distorting or deleting A's contributions.
2. Each is permitted to make a brief statement about violations of the other one in appropriate forums. (This may have no effect, as I haven't seen a brief statement by either.) He may not make a followup statement unless asked. (Advice to all; don't ask.)

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:06, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin: I think that's an excellent recommendation. + 1 on that. Safehaven86 (talk) 19:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I'll support with the addition of my previous mentioned March 1 cut off. The cut of means if only one editor was involved with the article prior to March 1 they are allowed to remain involved. I'm 100% OK with HughD and I both agreeing to step away from previous mutual topics. Springee (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Two-way interaction bans, as proposed above by uninvolved colleagues, are simple and well-understood by our community and have an established history of curbing the disruptive following and harassment behavior you have demonstrated over the last year. Your attempt to negotiate terms in contrast is a bizarre custom page ban with an unprecedented boundary definition which in effect codifies your problematic article ownership issues in the form of a community sanction, and is nothing more than an attempt to distract our community from your edit history. "I was there first" does not matter on Misplaced Pages and our community is not going to start with you. Our community has substantial experience in sorting out interaction ban violation incidents and has absolutely no desire to get involved in helping you enforce your baroque conditions. Please see the above diffs: you have earned an interaction ban many times over, accept it with grace. Hugh (talk) 20:53, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I will remind HughD that he has also "earned an interaction ban many times over." You both have. So stop. Just stop. The ever expanding wall of text here when the community long ago reached consensus on an IBAN only serves to further prove why an IBAN was needed. Wait for this discussion to be closed by an admin, then go your merry ways with your IBAN, and let the rest of us live in peace without having to read paragraphs upon paragraphs of the same thing over and over again. Safehaven86 (talk) 21:47, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Close requested

Been 4 days since last comment. Getting quite stale. Since there was !voting and I proposed an iban, I cannot close or archive this myself. Requesting an uninvolved admin look this over and close it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

For transparency, HughD challenged the closure by Atsme here. Anmccaff reverted that here, which I then reverted here as I don't see anything wrong with HughD's challenge to the closure by a non-admin. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I see a problem with simply hiding the request. It should be either noted, as you have done, or struck through, or replied to. Anmccaff (talk) 19:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Discussion of the non-admin closure with the closer may be found at User talk:Atsme#Non-admin closure of Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Springee campaigning. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I think this should be closed as no proposed solution likely to be accepted by the community or by the parties. Hugh has stated he would not accept Springee's reasonable modification of the standard IBAN, and Springee would not accept the standard IBAN due to (Springee's perception) of the fact that Hugh edits articles edited by Springee in order to discredit Springee's edits, but not in the same section Springee is editing. There seems to be no traction in the general community for any specific IBAN, although there seems to be general agreement that an IBAN might be helpful.

I suspect the non-admin closure was not a good idea, but nothing is going to happen here. I'm clearly involved, so I cannot close this, even if there were consensus for some action. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

"...no proposed solution likely to be accepted by the community or by the parties." I again clarify: I accept the above reasonable, measured, simple proposal of uninvolved colleagues: a two-way interaction ban, and I respectfully again beg community support for this straight-forward, proven effective proposal. Not sure how "acceptable to Springee" became a criteria, or how Springee is in any position to dictate terms, given the relentless record of following and harassment amply documented in copious diffs above. A close with no action is counter-indicated by the record. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I meant to say, no proposed solution acceptable to both parties, the community, or to admins in general. A specific admin might impose a standard IBAN or Springee's retroactive IBAN, or my modified IBAN. I don't think any one of them is likely to be agreed to by more than one uninvolved admin. I could be wrong, but an article ban on each party to each article where the other is a major contributor seems necessary, but I don't know whether a conventional IBAN would be helpful if neither or both parties are major contributors. I'm not sure about Springee, but Hugh is still testing the edges of his topic ban(s); I see no reason to believe he would not test the edges of an IBAN. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I've only just been made aware of the drama here... I am the subject of an IBAN, which is a mutual IBAN, and considering the reasons behind it, it seems fair. This situation is however very different. Editor 1. No block history, no topic bans, no drama apart from on issues related to editor 2. Editor 2. Multiple editing blocks within a short period of time. 6 blocks in 6 months. Topic bans. I'm sure he has the best of intentions, however it just isn't working. For his own good, a one way interaction ban would be fair and probably the only thing likely to prevent an indef block from editing. It's unfair for all other editors involved to lose valuable editing time dealing with someone who has already proven how disruptive they can be, and show zero signs of changing in the future. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I view your comment but it seems you only became aware of it due to a discussion that was inappropriately opened at Talk:Ford_Pinto#Pursue_Topic_Ban_for_HughD.3F. Battleground behavior on the part of involved parties.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:36, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Huh? Why would I need an "inappropriately opened" discussion to become aware of this issue, when I'm involved in another discussion currently on ANI? I saw this discussion on ANI, and went to the article in question to get some more background and see if I could help out. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:55, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

You've improperly used scare quotes. It was inappropriately opened. As in it should never been opened in the first place at Talk:Ford_Pinto. And that's how it seems you came to the discussion, key word being seems, as you posted there before you posted here. However, that glaring point shining above is, there's highly inappropriate behavior on part of participants here in an attempt to influence the outcome here.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:31, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

And I posted on another discussion, a few threads down on ANI, before I posted on Talk:Ford_Pinto. Infact, if you want to look at my edit history on ANI, you will notice me posting on a discussion that directly affects me, and then noticing an unrelated discussion in which I give an opinion, a few minutes later on numerous occasions. It doesn't seem like anything, you are making incorrect assumptions, when you could have easily asked "hey, how did you come to notice this discussion?" and got a definitive answer, rather than assuming the worst. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:51, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

To again digress with you, looking at your edit history hours before you were at ANI. 5 or so hours. And then course 1 hour before you posted here on this subject you had posted at the article in question. Now you've said that isn't what brought you here and while I believe you I don't actually care. To get back on subject, to the salient point, and the relevant discussion, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Topic_ban_user_User:HughD_from_Ford_Pinto was opened before they opened Talk:Ford_Pinto#Pursue_Topic_Ban_for_HughD.3F. They opened this, misusing the talk page a forum and while in battleground mode, to Campaign those who dislike HughD to the ANI.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:11, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

@Serialjoepsycho: - I'm confused how opening a discussion on the article talkpage was inappropriate. HughD had created contention on that talkpage. My intent was to ask editors on that talkpage whether they felt his behavior warranted an ANI discussion. NickCT (talk) 14:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I would go further: I don't see how anyone familiar with Misplaced Pages could think it "inappropriately opened". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

How is it appropriate to use the articles talk page to convene a meeting of the "I hate X-Editor Club" in hopes of forming a faction to take along with you to the ANI you are planning? They went to Talk:Ford Pinto and polled to see whom else would join them in taking HughD here.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:02, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh please, an article talk page is clearly not the place to propose (and gather support for) a topic ban for someone that you're in a dispute with. Fyddlestix (talk) 18:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. An article talk page campaign against an editor on a article talk page with an open, formal request for comment, the disruption of legitimate dispute resolution attempt, is a particularly onerous form of disruptive editing. Respectfully again request support for the 2-way interaction ban proposed above by uninvolved colleagues. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 18:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

@Fyddlestix: - You're saying I should have gone straight to ANI? I don't know. I always feel like launching ANI threads at the drop of a hat is a form of WP:WIKILAWYERING. NickCT (talk) 19:33, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Exactly how many weeks has this been open for now? Two? Three? Do you people want to get yourselves an arbcom case or something? MPS1992 (talk) 20:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm starting to think that's where this will end up - Springee's just filed a new (largely baseless) AE report against HughD though, here's hoping admits there can sort this out. Fyddlestix (talk) 21:47, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Note: I have requested closer for the WP:ARE and publicly apologized to HughD. It was a mistaken understanding of the limits of HughD's topic ban. Springee (talk) 00:52, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

So it seems resolved completely. Let an admin close or everyone simply stop posting here.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:33, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Accept the 2-way interaction ban proposed by our uninvolved colleagues above in this thread and I will joyously accept your apology. Your desperate WP:AER filing of yesterday only served to further document your obsession with your HughD project and the timing was clearly a cry for help. Our uninvolved colleagues are trying to help. They have seen this before and they know what to do. Put your project behind you and join ours. No one is trying to tell you you cannot contribute constructively to your favorite articles, a 2-way interaction ban is the simplest thing that might work. Accept it. You will be happier. We are all anxious to see the great things you are capable of in article space. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 13:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully request re-open of this second non-admin close. We need to discuss this claim in the stated reason for close: "...without the voluntary cosent of both parties to an unconditional interaction ban, any IBAN is meaningless due to the large glaring loopholes." Our project's policy WP:IBAN does not require interaction bans to voluntary. What loopholes? If there are loopholes, let's fix them. Has no involuntary interaction ban ever been imposed? When were interaction bans reduced to a voluntary program? If interaction bans require consent, let's say so at WP:IBAN. There is simply way too much actionable behavior, over a year, documented with diffs above to close this with no action. The consensus of uninvolved editors (EvergreenFir, The Voidwalker) is clear: a two-way interaction ban. If the above diffs to not merit an interaction ban, let's section delete WP:IBAN. My block record for one would be a lot cleaner would someone have explained to me all I needed to do was reserve consent. Forgive me, I beg for relief. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:55, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Specific requests for admin close ignored by non-admin close:

1. 5 April 2016, at WP:AN HughD: "Respectfully request an uninvolved administrator please assess the proposal..."
2. 6 April 2016, above EvergreenFir: "Requesting an uninvolved admin look this over and close it."

Respectfully again request admin close. Ample actionable behavior reported. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:57, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

You really need to take a hint Hugh. There is no consensus to impose an interaction ban given the discussion above. Admins do not have magical consensus judging powers. And even if someone wanted to close it with your preferred result, an admin still wouldnt be needed or required to say 'Let there be an interaction ban!' as it requires no admin tools to enact. Springee wont agree to a mutual interaction ban without conditions that would make it toothless to *your* detriment. If you abide by the principals at interaction ban (do not comment on their talkpage, do not revert their edits, stay away from them) and Springee does not, it will be quickly apparant who the instigator is. Then it is more likely the next time an outcome might be in your favour. If you both abide by those principals, problem solved. In short - stop asking for an interaction ban and just stop interacting with them. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

A recent two-way interaction ban imposed without consent and with far less documented disruptive behavior: 1 February 2016 WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive912#Hard_to_believe_they_all_think_we_should_waste_time_on_them._AKA_a_pox_on_all_of_their_houses

I hope that my support for the reasonable, measured, simple proposal of uninvolved colleagues does not take away from the proposal. Hugh (talk) 17:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Previous opportunities for voluntary compliance with an interaction ban which proved ineffective:

1. 14 September 2015 Prior ANI report for harassment and following
2. 18 October 2015 Administrator and arbitration committee clerk Callenecc requests interaction ban

Voluntary compliance is demonstrably ineffective. Nothing would please me more than an end to this. Please help end the drama. Hugh (talk) 18:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• After all this time, it's pretty clear that none of the admins here are comfortable imposing an Iban or taking other decisive action. I suggest letting this thread die, but - as the most recent nac suggests - doing so with the clear understanding that you are both very strongly encouraged to stay far away from each other. By now it should be crystal clear to both HughD and Springee that everyone else is out of patience here - i will have no qualms about opening a new ANI if there is any further disruption or harassment from either of you. I'm guessing that if that happens, and this is raised here again, that we will easily get consensus for a stronger remedy. But there's no reason it has to come to that. Both of you just have to accept that the dispute ends here, and walk away. You don't need a formal IBAN to do that, although I would certainly suggest acting as of one had been applied going forward. Fyddlestix (talk) 18:14, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• There's not really a reason to open this. An admin can apply a topicban to HughD or NickCT or both without opening this. They can also apply the iBan. There was plenty of time for you to make a justification to the community HughD and you did not. It's time to move on.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:22, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal for interaction ban with User:Winkelvi

User says he would stop hounding me, then starts that up again. See I made it clear I didnt want to be gossiped about, but he did just that at . I would also like to link y'all to this previous discussion (Thank you so much Calidum for the link) . This is pretty much all anybody would need for "evidence". Winkelvi is basically a hateful hound, and he will just choose one editor and hound him/her to the level that he/she retires. See User:Lips Are Movin for a previous such instance. His hounding goes from making false sockpuppeting accusations to clogging up my talk page with anything he wishes. By the way, none of those files were deleted. He tries to get allies against me, first it was Chasewc91 and now its Chesnaught555. Notice how he took this GA review just to fail it? He didnt even let it be on hold for 7 days. He also continually makes WP:POLEMIC writings about me on his user page, and also supporting any/other deletion (or otherwise) discussion against my standing. He gossips about me on other users' talk pages. And makes a poor impression of mine to anyone I try to engage with. I am now asking for administrator intervention. Note that he is also trying to WP:DOX my country here. Please tell me he doesnt get to file bogus SPIs against me after this IBAN. Cause' it reflects badly on me (and FAKE if I may add).--MaranoFan (talk) 13:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully, you'll need to provide more than a bare accusation if you want anything done. Diffs? History? Anything? -Starke Hathaway (talk) 13:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

You can have a mutually-enforced interaction ban or a community-enforced one? Which one are you running for? --QEDK (T ☕ C) 13:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

A community-enforced one.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

There was a previous discussion about an interaction ban with a lot of consensus, can someone give a link to that?--MaranoFan (talk) 13:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment First of all, I've never said I would stop hounding him or anyone; second, I've never hounded him; third, my comments to Calvin999 were in reference to a couple of things: MF canvassing an editor to do a GA review for him and a GA review then starting up just an hour or so after the editor doing the review was canvassed. It seems to be a vio of policy to canvass in such a manner to begin with, since the editor being canvassed is friendly toward MF and there could be favoritism clouding the GA process in this case. Further, the other issue is that there are a lot of GA noms that just sit for a considerable period of time, untouched and unnoticed, because those nominating articles for GA don't ask favors from their Wiki-friends to do a GA review for them. MF has done this before: canvassing editors he is friendly with to perform a GA review for him. This seems to me an egregious abuse of process on the part of anyone, not just MF, and that was what my comment to Calvin was about. And speaking of policy violations on the part of MF, let me include this conversation that not only mentions a policy vio by MF occurring just moments ago, but also shows an interesting attitude from MF toward an admin he didn't think was an admin. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 13:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Is this a joke? I know nothing about any of the editors I ask to do reviews.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Calvin accepted stuff like and because he likes those editors, but when I do it it is a problem?--MaranoFan (talk) 13:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Canvassing for this AN/I here, here, here, here. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 13:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

My TP also, Winkelvi. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

NONE of these are actually canvassing, I encourage the editors to actually open and view these links, they are being misrepresented.--MaranoFan (talk) 14:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Go and actually read WP:Canvassing loll, Calidum is an editor who has dealt with you before. Hence I summon him.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Another policy vio just committed: editing my comments in this ANI here. Not a huge deal, but I think it demonstrates where the issues truly lie (or, with whom). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Another comment and observation: Does MF really want an IBAN? This comment on my talk page and this comment on Chesnaught555's talk page doesn't cause me to think so. The continued responses to me in this filing fall into that, as well. Then there's this comment in the subsection below ("No opposition votes yet, yay!"). It has since been removed by MF. What I am seeing (especially with the "Yay!" comment), is a desire to WP:WIN. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Obviously everyone says "yay" when they're on their way of getting freedom from a hound.--MaranoFan (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Clearly you have some concerns about MaranoFan's conduct - and how many edits have you made, just in the last 3 hours, dealing with them? My question is this - why would you want to continue wasting your time with them? They want to disengage - if you agree as well, then why can't we do a voluntary iban here? Ignoring their conduct (which I have not reviewed)... honestly, you do seem to be pretty relentless in pointing out problems with their edits. Why bother? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

The issue is not so much a desire for an IBAN (which I don't have), the issue is that MF continually brings this kind of stuff up when it's largely his own doing. His harassment of me at my userspace and filings of bogus reports has been going on for over a year. There have been several discussions regarding his behavior previously. His usual response? When things get too hot for him and it's proven he's the cause of the issues he blames on others, he hightails it for the weeds with a script enforced Wiki-break. Admins have warned and warned him. A few examples of past discussions and enforcements (I encourage you and anyone reading this to look at them): , , , , , , . -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

The issue, Winkelvi, is not whether you desire an IBAN, but why you're opposing one. MF has requested such a ban, which would immediately solve all the problems you mention, and yet you oppose it. To my eyes, this suggests that your main objective is simply to deny MF what they have requested, to be at the center of drama for whatever reason, or some combination of both. Agree to a voluntary IBAN and move on. If MF then violates the ban that they requested, you have a legitimate complaint. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Regardless of what the issue is (and it's really about MF's behavior and continued attempts to interact with me at another editor's talk page as well as my own since this was filed), I have a right to oppose an IBAN proposal that includes me. That in mind, how can me opposing it be an issue? Further, this comment from you, "to be at the center of drama for whatever reason" makes no sense, since this filing not only involves me, but the filer put my name in the topic header. Regardless, the center of "the drama" is the filer, plain and simple, as I have pointed out with the numerous diffs provided. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

No. That's precisely what this is not about. MaranoFan has indicated that they believe you are hounding them, and that they would like to not interact with you anymore. Your response, here, is that you are not hounding them, and by the way here are multiple diffs across multiple edits showing a variety of ways in which MaranoFan has violated policies. Do you understand that THAT behavior is what is at issue here? You're playing Gotcha with every edit they make, whether it's warranted or not. You've made your point about their behavior - and the fact that it's been posted here means that multiple admins will keep an eye on it. I'm asking that you drop the stick and leave it be. MaranoFan has asked here for an interaction ban with you, and you've done nothing but justify such a ban. So explain to us, please, what benefit to the project would we see from you continuing to interact with an editor who doesn't want to interact with you? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 17:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

You just told me I should stop giving evidence, then you told me I should drop the stick, and now you're asking me to give you more evidence and not drop the stick? What's more, it's obvious you haven't looked at any of the evidence presented by anyone here, if you had, you would see that I'm not the one who's interacting with this individual. Rather, it's the individual filing the report who's interacting with me. I'm fine with helpful comments from editors, but your comments here are confusing and contradict each other, and seem wholly unhelpful. Further, how helpful is it for you to comment and make demands if you have not truly looked into any of the links provided and given them any reasonable thought? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I believe you missed my point. Let's assume that you've proven your point that MaranoFan is being disruptive. I don't concede that, but let's interpret the facts in the manner most favorable to you. So you've made your point - MaranoFan is being disruptive. Fine. Admins are now aware that they are being disruptive. So why would you want to continue interacting with MaranoFan? You want to show that they are violating policy? Mission accomplished. What now? You're posting link after link about MaranoFan, and you've directly responded to their comments here repeatedly, so yes you are continuing to interact. I'm saying that there is no further purpose served by that interaction. So if this person is so disruptive and poisonous, why would you not want them banned from posting to or about you? You would be banned from posting to or about them, of course, but who cares? If you're not interacting with them, as you claim, then what difference would an interaction ban make? "Yes, I agree not to do the thing I'm not doing" is no sanction. Would it make things easier if MaranoFan agreed to the ban first? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 18:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

What would help is if MF would leave me alone. Stay out of my userspace (which he's been warned about continually for over a year), stop filing ridiculous reports against me (which he's also been warned about continuously for a year). He claims hounding but has no proof of it (because I'm not hounding him). If he wants to be left alone, then he can show good faith and do the same. I will not agree to an interaction ban because I have done nothing that warrants it nor the black mark it brings. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

In other words, you are indeed requesting an IBAN. You do seem to have a knack for this, as evidenced with my interactions with you. If MF is requesting a IBAN, then I don't get the big deal to agree to it. Your posts above, at least to me, do show a sort of hounding and it would do you well to stay away from MF and let others deal with the edits in question. Sir Joseph 19:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Official discussion

• Support - I want to finally start doing good work for Misplaced Pages, uninterrupted.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Looks to me like MF isn't really after an IBAN after all. This message directed to WV on my talk page is on a par with harassment. If she has an unshakable and obsessive want for an IBAN so much, she should just stay away from him... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

That comment was directed at Ches, as he archived the above thread which could've taken a negative turn. I still want an IBAN with WV. MaranoFan (talk) 14:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, MaranoFan. It was not appreciated. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 15:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Okay, but I fail to see how that dif is "harassment" or a rationale against an iban, regardless of who it was made to. I don't follow your argument at all. Sergecross73 msg me 19:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Sergecross73, my argument is that the two editors in question should not interact further (despite MF's posts on WV's talk page after the AN/I filing...) without any formal interaction ban placed between them. Neither party needs this "black mark" sanction placed on them. Is it too much to ask? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

That's fair, I guess I was just thrown off by your "harassment" remark. That seems to be...a bit of a misrepresentation or misinterpretation of the dif. But if you feel that these two are capable of discussion that won't bring continued disruption to the project, so be it, I guess. I just don't share that optimism, considering how long this probablem has been occurring. Sergecross73 msg me 19:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I had asked MF to stay off my talk page, Serge, and yet the posts continued. If anything, this IBAN would be pointless on the basis that I know Winkelvi already has ceased communication with MaranoFan, and yet Marano continues to interact. In addition to this, no administrator could possibly argue that the community is 100% in favour of it. If I were an uninvolved admin, I would close this as no consensus, and I am certain that this will be the outcome. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, its probably good you're in no position to close this discussion then, because you'd be raked over the coals for closing this discussion now as no consensus, considering its only been running about a day, and the last comment was left like 5 minutes ago, so discussion in clearly still active and consensus is still forming. Not to mention it currently leaning towards "support". (But the fact that you don't see that is the very reason why INVOLVED exists, so that's good at least.) Sergecross73 msg me 17:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

That's exactly why I am not an admin, Sergecross73! The Support !votes only slightly outnumber the Oppose ones, so in all honesty I still do not see a consensus. I can see either that happening, or a landslide Support majority later... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 17:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Not for nothing, but three admins have commented here (Only, Ultra and Serge) and they've all supported the proposed interaction ban. Calidum ¤ 02:26, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support - If MaranoFan wants Winkelvi to back off then he should back off. Also, MF should work harder at avoiding WV whenever possible. WV needs to learn to stop lecturing other editors and focus more on making improvements to Misplaced Pages. I fully support the IBAN. These comments are based upon interaction with WV. Please note how WV responds to my good faith comments here. It will tell you everything that you need to know about this IBAN request.--ML (talk) 15:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose: Insufficient evidence presented to merit an IBAN. Insufficient evidence that lesser remedies (e.g., mutual avoidance) have been tried and failed. I believe indef-length IBANs should be avoided unless that element of the IBAN is independently justified, and I'm not seeing any such justification. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 17:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Mendaliv: Is this enough for "evidence"? The only reason anyone opposed was because I was on a script-enforced wikibreak.--MaranoFan (talk) 18:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Even assuming I could support an IBAN on the basis of that thread, I will not support one of indef length without further justification. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 20:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support. The previous request, which was archived without a proper closure, is viewable here. As the filer of that request, I think the evidence there was quite compelling. Though I haven't followed the situation of late, I don't think much has changed between MF and WV since then given the tenor of comments such as "same shit, different day" , this diatribe (the whole thread there is truly illuminating), or this pointy revert . Calidum ¤ 17:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support - I was requested to comment here, which makes sense, as I tried to mediate some disputes between the two of them in the past I believe. Even before that, I saw this pop up on my watchlist was likely going to give my two cents. Anyways, I think an iban would help make both of their efforts more constructive, so they can focus on content and not each other. They're arguments have been going on for a long time, and I think everyone would be better off if they'd just go work on the opposite ends of pop music work on content separately. Sergecross73 msg me 18:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Calling a editor out on their faults and then observing the chastened editor develop ANI-flu is not harassment. I would suggest that if Winkelvi sees faults with MaranoFan's editing, that they bring it to a neutral admin to help correct the issue. MaranoFan should go back and read WP:CANVAS and WP:ADMINSHOP closer as their claims of not canvassing/adminshopping falls flat on it's face. MaranoFan should observe other well established policies (like WP:TPO which prohibits deleting other users talk page commentary barring extraordinary situations) lest they end up on the wrong side of sanctions. This iBan request reads more like MaranoFan trying to neutralize a significant and frequently correct critic of their work, which iBans are not to be used for. Hasteur (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Hasteur: But it is not Canvassing or adminshopping, these are people who were involved at which was precisely about the same thing as this, only failed because I was inactive.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

If you cannot see that the items that WV presented are Canvassing/AdminShopping I call into question your competence because the notices are nowhere near neutral in addition to your conduct faults indicates that your privileges need to be restricted, not WV. I again reiterate my advice to both of you. Hasteur (talk) 00:39, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, possible boomerang based solely on the diffs provided here. MaranoFan has not demonstrated any hounding, stalking, or other inability to edit constructively with WV. WV, however, has provided a good amount of evidence against MaranoFan showing a history of disruption. Given that WV seems disinclined to agree to an iban, it's up to the filer to demonstrate the need for one. I see no such demonstration. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

But there can't be a boomerang, as I am asking for a two-sided IBAN. There will either be an IBAN or there won't be one. Please get your facts straight.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Blocks, tbans, and one-way ibans are always options. Your behavior here and in the diffs is atrocious thus far... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

MaranoFan, I've been here for more than 2 years and have participated in plenty of ANI reports since last year. I know well enough that what EvergreenFir is said is correct. Any kind of report will involve scrutiny of editors involved, whether it be the filer or not. WP:BOOMERANG applies to any kind of situation, regardless it be a preposition or not. I recommend that you get your facts straight. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support Somewhat based on my own dealings with WV, if MF is requesting an IBAN, then that should be accepted. WV needs to learn how to lay off and know when to call it quits and if staying away from MF will do Wiki good, then it should pass. Sir Joseph 19:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support, per both editors' comments in this thread. MaranoFan asked for the ban but then keeps commenting on Winkelvi, while Winkelvi refuses to stop commenting on MaranoFan. It's obvious that neither one is going to leave the other alone. So let's have an interaction ban, and then some blocks when the ban is violated. Nothing here is going to improve the project one bit - so we need to put a stop to it. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Any editor should be able to get an IBAN with any other editor if they feel their interactions are not productive. I don't believe that Winkelvi is the only editor in the project who (1) is capable of dealing with whatever problems MaranoFan presents, and (2) would be willing to do so. Therefore there is no need for continued contact between these two parties. It should go without saying that we'll have a problem if MF requests an IBAN with any editor who opposes them; for now, I see this as an avoidable personality conflict. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Mandruss: Ibans burden both parties though. Do you think there's enough evidence here to support claims that WV is somehow harassing or unable to constructively edit with MF? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I disagree that an IBAN would necessarily burden Winkelvi. If the concept of a "no-fault divorce" doesn't exist here, it should in my view. If it's not necessary to establish fault, the presence or absence of evidence is irrelevant. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

By the way, I would find it problematic if a Winkelvi->MaranoFan IBAN were established and then Chesnaught555 started (continued?) to actively oppose MF. WV and Ches are so closely allied that they are effectively almost one and the same person, and Ches would simply become a proxy for Winkelvi in disputes with MF. I'm not advocating a second IBAN at this point, but I hope Ches would recognize the problem and also avoid MF. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Mandruss, of course sir. I asked MF to stay off my talk page and I hope they follow that advice - I also don't wish for any further interaction with them. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 20:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

No problem, Mandruss. I do hope you understand why I am not in favour of any formal sanctions. Simply informally staying away from MF may be the best way forward, and I do not see any consensus on this !vote. I am certain that Winkelvi will agree on this one considering he is not in favour of the IBAN, either. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 20:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Each of these two editors seem to be bringing out the worst in the other, and apparently this has been going on in some form for at least a year. Ultraexactzz and Mandruss bring a lot of clarity to the situation. We don't need a mountain of evidence, nor do we need to wait for a total blowup before we simply tell these editors to stay away from each other, stop worrying about each others edits, and stop posting innuendo on third party editor's talk pages.- MrX 20:50, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support if this eliminates the near constant sniping and back and forth bickering between the two users. They cannot keep apart from each other even when they say they want nothing to do with each other. They clearly can't do so the community must force them to avoid each other. only (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't understand this request, which was brought to my attention on my talk page. Based on the very first post by MF requesting this IBAN, these two editors have not been interacting. WV has mentioned this person to other editors. Simply not a reasonable request. I get mentioned now and then by other editors. That's how the bisquit crumbles. Nor do I understand the harm done. Mind you am not in the WV fan club, and I assume that's why I was approached, but this discussion does not add to the totality of man's knowledge in any way. Coretheapple (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC) Changing to support based on this discussion, which clarified the need for this IBAN. Coretheapple (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Interesting turn of events. Especially since the original premise for your "Oppose" !vote was "Based on the very first post by MF requesting this IBAN, these two editors have not been interacting." - and that premise/observation remains the same (as far as I'm aware and based on my own continued non-interaction with MF). I think it's not unreasonable to ask you to explain why you have changed this out of the blue, Coretheapple. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:38, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I can't answer for Core, but personally, its the way you badger and bicker with anyone who disagrees with you in these discussions with these snippy responses, coupled with the fact that these issues with Marano have been spanning months (years?) now. I know you probably feel you're just "defending yourself" or something, but constant aggressive responses doesn't exactly send the "I'm not the type of person to be hounding someone" message you're going for here, nor does it instill confidence about this issue just going away on its own without any action taken. You're not exactly portraying yourself in the best light in these responses (and similar bickering/badgering from Calvin and Ches probably aren't helping either, they just make this all look like an even bigger mess.) Sergecross73 msg me 18:38, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Yep, that puts it well. My sentiments entirely. Coretheapple (talk) 00:29, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Your explanation and Core's agreement with same makes no sense in that (1) It has nothing to do with the IBan proposal; (3) When Core changed her !Vote, I hadn't responded to anyone in this thread for a considerable amount of time; (3) The reasoning you gave seems to be based on a punitive mindset. In other words, "If you respond to comments and defend yourself we will punish you for doing so". None of this has anything to do with interaction between MF and myself (which there hasn't been for a week now), doesn't establish a need for an IBan (no one, including the filer, has been able to provide any evidence to support that need) and certainly doesn't fit the picture of action taken to prevent disruption (prevention, not punishment). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:33, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Hmmm, based on your response, you're not following what I'm saying at all. I'm not criticizing the fact that you're responding/defending yourself, its the way you're going about doing it. Think of it this way. Have you ever witnessed this exchange: A person says something with their voice raised. Another person, in response, says "Please don't raise your voice, I don't like it when you're angry." Then, the first person responds by screaming "I'm not angry! You'll know when I'm angry!". Generally, you'll find the second person unconvinced, because, you know, screaming is a common sign of being angry. Bringing this back to you, you're essentially defending the accusation that you're hounding this editor, by going about hounding anyone who disagrees with you. It makes your argument...hard to believe. You've got an explanation for every example people provide you, but the fact that we keep having these discussions, makes your dismissals hard to buy into. Sergecross73 msg me 19:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I do now see your point, Sergecross73. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 04:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support Just by looking at the back and forth between these two in this thread, it seems obvious they can't collaborate constructively together. An interaction ban is needed to separate these two, and it would be a benefit to both editors and the project.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 22:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support UltraExactZZ, Mandruss and MrX have analyzed the situation accurately. I am in full agreement with their assessments. Cullen Let's discuss it 23:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I do see a hounding issue that needs to be addressed, as per WV's message on Calvin999's talk page. However, what I do is MaranoFan's mishandling of the issue. Her/his (I don't remember the gender) message on WV's talk page and what seems to be an edit on WV's user page is enough provoke anyone. I don't see how an IBAN would help anyone, since interaction is very small if at all. As much as I don't like WV, I just don't see how the IBAN is any way going to resolve the issue. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Please note that this will be my last time posting in this thread I don't see how an IBAN would help anyone But it will help both parties, solving the issue you describe above. This two-sided iban will also prevent me from editing his userspace. As anyone who will read his posts conclude, "WV is asking for an IBAN without knowing he wants one".--MaranoFan (talk) 06:50, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Your edit as of 09:41, 30 March 2016 proved this to be either a lie or a broken promise and therefore whatever credibility you have left is in the sewer along with other refuse. Hasteur (talk) 12:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose As others have already pointed out, my actions do not merit an IBan. Whether MF's actions do, I'll leave up to others to decide. I will say this about MF running here for his allegations that I am hounding him: He needs to toughen up and stop coming to administrators and other editors with complaints about those he feels have wronged, bullied, harassed, and hounded him. Along the same lines - as others have also pointed out to him - he needs to get a grip on what hounding truly is and isn't. Sans that understanding, it's no surprise to me that he hasn't been able to provide one shred of evidence that I have been hounding him.

I completely object to the proposition that I would have to wear an IBan stigma badge when it's unnecessary for me and when I have done nothing that warrants such a stigma and black mark on my editing career in Misplaced Pages. And, frankly, I have to wonder MF understands what an IBan will really mean for him going forward.

Something else that needs to be pointed out: one of the big differences between MF and I as far as this report: he has felt the need to go to numerous editors to get support for his IBan "proposal", in fact he has gone to those he perceives to be my Misplaced Pages enemies and/or detractors. If that doesn't tell anyone reading this something important about MFs purpose in this report as well as his attitude toward me, I don't know what will. On the flip side, who have I gone to in order to gain support? No one at all. Why? Because (1) It's against policy (canvassing), and (2) I haven't done anything that warrants an IBan, therefore, I don't feel a need to defend myself or ask others to stand up for me.

I do need to address those who say that there is continued "sniping" or disruptive/unconstructive behavior between the two of us. Let me point out that a little over a month ago, I tried very, very hard to make a good faith gesture toward MF and offer an olive branch in the way of reviewing an article he nom'd for GA. Everything I did and said from the first review comments to the ultimate fail and final comments (all to be seen here) were fair and extremely civil toward MF. How did he respond? Continuing to chide and poke and behave rudely toward me (example here: ). One thing that whole experience shows: I have no problem with or inability in treating MF with civility and fairness. The only one who does have difficulty in this area is the person who filed the report. And, as another already stated, pointing out MFs bad fruit and policy vios and bad behavior is not wrong, nor is it the problem here. The person producing bad fruit and committing policy vios and bad behavior who complains about someone pointing out these issues and running to AN/I when it happens, is.

There's really not much more for me to say, except to address Sir Joseph who tried to put words in my mouth when he said, "In other words, you are indeed requesting an IBAN." No, I didn't say that at all SJ. How you got that impression is beyond my comprehension. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support per the previous proposal a year ago by Calidum, which had a supermajority of Support, but was archived without close. If this problem has still persisted one year later, it's time for the IBan to happen. After enaction, the IBan can be re-assessed a year from now and if both parties are agreeable, it can be removed. Softlavender (talk) 02:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - MaranoFan has been bringing all of this on himself for months. He is rude, non-compliant, not willing to listen, doesn't understand the rules and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, canvasses for reviews on a weekly basis and has no respect for anyone. He is cold and calculating. MF requesting an IBAN against the very placid, calm and peaceful editor that is Winkelvi is nothing more than a childish, immature and non-starter attempt at trying to garner some attention, which MF thrives on. If anything, MF should be banned from contacting Winkelvi, not the other way around. MF should be blocked from editing from his disgusting and highly provocative behaviour on WP over the past couple of weeks. I'm more than happy to provide a multitude of diffs is required.  — Calvin999 09:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Pot meet kettle, you are both black.--MaranoFan (talk) 09:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Racist.  — Calvin999 10:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Calvin999 Were you joking? WP:KETTLE's existence is ample testimony to this metaphor being widely understood on English Misplaced Pages, and if you seriously think your being called "black" in this case was about race, then you should be more careful about responding before clicking on the links. In my experiences, calling you a kettle when you call someone else "rude, non-compliant, unwilling to listen and failing to understand the rules and guidelines of Misplaced Pages" is a perfectly reasonable argument. (I haven't looked at the rest of the content here, so I'm not sure if you were technically correct; I only posted here because when my browser refreshed after I posted a comment in another thread it jumped around a bit, and my cursor wound up hovering over the word "racist", which peaked my interest.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Since Calvin999 hasn't provided even a single diff, I feel compelled to state that "rude, non-compliant, not willing to listen, doesn't understand the rules and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, canvasses ... and has no respect for anyone" describe Calvin999, as evidenced by the mass of notable Adele song articles he AfDed after MaranoFan worked on them, and by these recent ANIs: , , , , . And calling Winkelvi a "very placid, calm and peaceful editor" is ludicrous to anyone who has actually interacted with him or looked at his block log or seen his editing style or his bloodhound-like stalking of editors he dislikes or has issues with. Softlavender (talk) 01:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I said I can provide diffs if required. Since you haven't asked me to provide any, that's why none are here. As I said, I am still happy to provide diffs if required.  — Calvin999 09:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

"...or seen his editing style or his bloodhound-like stalking of editors he dislikes or has issues with.". Diffs are required for such an outrageous claim, and I see no reason why this unprovoked, extreme personal attack from you should go unchallenged, Softlavender. In fact, I'm considering opening a complaint about it. You are welcome to give irrefutable evidence that what you've said is accurate or strike it. Your choice. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I dunno, several of your comments in this very thread could be used to support the contention that you have pursued Maranofan with "bloodhound-like" focus (though that's a far cry from stalking, as such). The fact that you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick would support that statement as well. Softlavender may have been overly harsh in their phrasing, but the sentiment is absolutely on point. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 18:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

"several of your comments in this very thread could be used to support the contention that you have pursued Maranofan with "bloodhound-like" focus" Providing diffs as evidence that this report is not only frivolous but (as another editor noted below) a complete waste of time and to show the filer is walking very close into boomerang territory is not pursuing anyone. It's doing what's required and necessary to defend oneself in this snake-pit called AN/I.

"you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick" Really? Please provide diffs from this AN/I that support such an accusation. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

K. Here's one, in which you refuse to stop interacting with MF despite their request. There are others, of course. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 20:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Your claim was, "you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick". I asked you to provide evidence I ever said or did either. You reply with a diff to this comment from me: "I will not agree to an interaction ban because I have done nothing that warrants it nor the black mark it brings.", and then further claim that I stated I "...refuse to stop interacting with MF despite their request" Your evidence does not show I refused to back off, nor does it show I am not dropping the stick. My comment obviously is what it appears: I will not agree to a formal interaction ban because I have done nothing wrong and no evidence has been given by MF that an IBan is warranted. This has already been pointed out by others in this thread, as well. This in mind, I do not deserve nor have I created a situation that the stigma or burden of a formal and/or indefinite IBan would bring. Further, I never said I was refusing to stop interacting with MF. Not once. Again, another misrepresentation from you - actually, an out-and-out lie. I don't appreciate you falsely representing what I've said nor do I appreciate being lied to and about. Especially by an administrator. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Your entire participation in this thread is predicated on the fact that MaranoFan asked you to stop interacting with them, and you refused. So they came here asking the community to require you to stop interacting with them (and, as part of that, agreed to stop interacting with you in turn). And you opposed the request, repeatedly and at length. So no, I don't think characterizing your response as refusing to back off is unreasonable. I asked you if you'd agree to a voluntary interaction ban, and you refused. "I will not agree to an interaction ban..." you said, at the diff I linked above. What you seem to not understand is that agreeing voluntarily to not interact with someone doesn't put a black mark on any record. No one is keeping score, here. This isn't fucking Reddit or some such. All that means is that - wait for it - you stop talking to or about that person, and they in turn stop talking to or about you. Period. Full stop. They can't be banned from interacting with you without you being banned from interacting with them - so explain to me, please, why you want to continue interacting with MF? You say that you don't, but yet you oppose a very simple request that would end, for the foreseeable future, any possibility of interaction. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

"No one is keeping score, here" Sure. No one is keeping score. That's a laugh. Obviously, you're thinking of what happens at the My Little Pony and Rainbow Unicorn Noticeboard at Cotton Candy-pedia rather than ANI at Misplaced Pages. And yes, you have mischaracterized what I said. Several times. Which tells me I need to stop saying anything to you because every time I have responded to you in this report, you've turned my actual words and obvious meaning into something else entirely. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:05, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, from over here in the cheap seats, your statements have been pretty clear. And you've done nothing to clarify them other than tell me that I'm wrong. So, ok. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:06, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Let's also avoid accusing editors of lying, shall we? Really and truly, all that does is prove my point - and reflects poorly on one of us. And it's not me. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Block for MaranoFan whose behaviour even here has been less than collegial at times. _Fortuna 16:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Should we have this as an alternative proposal? I see no consensus for the IBAN, and I do concur with Fortuna here... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I am open for that discussion. That comment with its edit summary really showcase how this user reacts and in no way is it acceptable. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 02:01, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I concur, Mirela. Should we start a new section with this alternative proposal? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 10:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

@Chesnaught555: A sub-section, yes. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 23:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

OK, Mirela and Fortuna - filed as subsection below. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support I disagree with the canvassing, but I agree that MaranoFan needs to cool down. Let's see if an IBAN would allow her to focus on content creation and other more useful activities. I am unfamiliar with the history between Winkelvi and MaranoFan, but I recently see quite a bit of edit warring and disputes arising from comparatively minor issues. SSTflyer 16:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

You don't see any recent edit warring from me, SSTflyer. I'd appreciate it if you would revise your comment and be more concise. If the edit warring is coming from MF, then you need to say that so others will not get the wrong impression. It's not me edit warring, please correct your comment. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Neither of these editors have clean hands in their interactions with each other, so a two-way IBAN seems to make the most sense. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 11:05, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

  Changing to strong support in light of the fact that Winkelvi has opened two fruitless SPIs against MaranoFan, the second of which was pretty much completely frivolous. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 16:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to understand the history on the first SPI filed a year ago. I had been undergoing an extreme amount of unrelenting tag-team harassment by both parties named in the SPI in my userspace. It seemed to me (and others at the time, including Calidum who emailed me about opening an SPI on MaranoFan but has since turned on me for reasons I am completely unclear about) that they were the same editor, especially considering how it was all occurring. If you'd like diffs, Starke, I can provide them for you). The latest SPI was poor judgement on my part and I shouldn't have done it. I'm not saying this because of your comment or because of this IBan proposal, but because I have had time to think about it and realized that it was not the best thing for me to do. We all learn from our mistakes, and the last SPI was a mistake on my part. The other one, however, was warranted considering what was happening at the time. The harassment was horrible - and was noted as such by more than one administrator and several editors. It did look like the two were the same person. Link to that SPI here. One more thing: I wasn't the only one who thought MF was socking, Chasewc91 did as well and filed another SPI on MF a few months later here. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:52, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Essentially agree with WP:BOOMERANG analysis by EvergreenFir (DIFF), and harassment analysis by Chesnaught555 (DIFF), above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 14:57, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• I don't support an IBAN, but I don't support a "boomerang" for MF either. She was provoked by comments about her and is oversensitive. The diffs cited don't demonstrate harassment; I actually think the one on WV's page was a kind of gesture of appreciation, not sarcastic. Let's just drop this big waste of time. Coretheapple (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC) (Correcting, now support IBAN.) Coretheapple (talk) 17:23, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as the least we can do to give MaranoFan a break from the harassment I've been observing for months. Softlavender's characterization of WV style is completely accurate. Anything Ches says is quite suspect for as someone else noted Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other. Legacypac (talk) 06:07, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh, for the love of christ... "someone else noted Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other." You'd better have a real good explanation along with some convincing evidence to make an outrageous claim like that. Or are you just trying to poison the well? I've seen some shitty, personal-attacky, non-AGF things said about me in Misplaced Pages before, but that pretty much takes the cake -- along with someone else saying I'm asking for an IBan, someone else saying I've been edit warring recently, someone else saying I'm stalking MF, and an administrator actually saying above (without proof) that I have refused to stop interacting with MF... enough. What a bunch of bullshit. None of it comes with diffs, none of it comes with evidence -- all of it is smoke and mirrors bullshit. So sick of it. All of it. The lies, the piling on, the ganging up, the vendettas. Encyclopedia? What encyclopedia? All this thread is amounting to now is internet flaming and a free-for-all. For fuck's sake. Drmies, Bbb23, NeilN, Ritchie333: will somebody, anybody with sense please do something about this? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 07:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

No, I am not a sock of Winkelvi. If you like, I can log out, make an IP edit, and confirm it is me - I live in the UK. Should I do that? Heck, most people know I'm British anyway, just by looking at my written English. I have no issue with doing this. Best, --Ches (talk) (contribs) 09:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Putting aside the "sock" red herring, I agree with Legacypac and with Softlavender's description of WV's editing style. I personally favor closing this without action. However, WV doesn't get any medals for his conduct by any stretch of the imagination. Coretheapple (talk) 13:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

"I agree with Legacypac and with Softlavender's description of WV's editing style." Which is another red-herring as it has absolutely nothing to do with what the original "proposal" and what this report is supposed to be about. I'm not a fan of your editing style, either. Who cares? Your editing style is not the issue just as my editing style isn't the issue. I'm now forced to point out: what can be the motivation for bringing editing style up in a thread that isn't about editing style? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I was bending over backwards by calling it a red herring, and the diffs cited by MF were gratuitous and provocative, and appeared to have the desired effect. Clearly you are impervious to reason over this. Coretheapple (talk) 14:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

WV loves one way interaction bans. How many editors has be banned from his talk page now? Legacypac (talk) 17:06, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose WV is not the problem here. Possible boomerang considering the behavior documented above. --DHeyward (talk) 08:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support These 2 editors, despite the well-established truth that nothing productive comes of their relationship, cannot seem to stay away from each other on their own. It is time for the Misplaced Pages community to take action and prevent needless bickering. Display name 99 (talk) 13:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support I'd also recommend an IBAN between MF and Calvin, even more so than the current proposal. Keeping the three of them separated would be beneficial to all three parties. Azealia911 _talk 15:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Fine with IBAN, and agreed with Azealia911. KGirlTrucker87 (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Per all the above.VictoriaGrayson 06:30, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support - clearly an issue here that would be resolved with an IBAN. - WOLFchild 20:50, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

While I am starting to see Sergecross' point re: my responses to comments in this thread, I will not be silent on this !vote. Clearly a retaliatory move based on this exchange and my comments here. Prior to the AN/I he filed, I had not heard of this user and have never had any interaction with them previously. I realize anyone is allowed to comment at AN/I regardless of previous interaction, however, I think that the diffs I provided here along with this diff to Wolfchild's block log (numerous blocks specifically for harassing other editors) gives a good picture of what their !vote is really all about. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:59, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for pointing out that I have an active report on ANI - that's why I'm here. And yes, our recent interactions demonstrated to me your poor attitude towards others and this project in general. Unlike you, I actually took the time to read through the ANI I'm commenting on, and can easily see that an IBAN is the best way to protect the project from any further disruption caused by you two interacting. The fact that sooo many others here agree with this assessment speaks volumes, and you should spend more time considering your actions and attitude, instead of attacking others. ("Block log" indeed... have you ever heard the saying about "People in glass houses"...?) You should worry about your own, very active, very recent, block log, instead of mine. - WOLFchild 21:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Closing this?

Do any admins feel like reviewing this to determine if an interaction ban should be enacted as requested? I'd rather not see another meaningful discussion be archived prematurely. Calidum ¤ 17:48, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that would be great if someone could help out. Its been going for about a week and a half now, and discussion has slowed down to a crawl. Sergecross73 msg me 15:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Anyone at all? Calidum ¤ 21:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Making sure this doesn't auto-archive again. Sergecross73 msg me 13:14, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I think there's a consensus for the iban. But I participated. So, if no one closes this and it goes in the bin, can I at least get admins who didn't comment to keep an eye open for shenanigans? This would be the second thread about some of these editors to end up archived without consensus, and I don't want to see a third. Thanks. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I put in a request for closure yesterday at WP:AN/RFC. I don't know if that'll help. Hasnt so far. only (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that pretty much represents where I'm at in all of this as well. Sergecross73 msg me 13:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Discounting WV's known allies, the consensus looks pretty clear. Hope that some Admin will look at this and close. Legacypac (talk) 03:36, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Alternative proposal: block for MaranoFan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggested by User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, who stated that MF's "behaviour even here has been less than collegial at times". MaranoFan's canvassing of other editors and lack of evidence supporting a reason for an IBAN between them and Winkelvi calls for WP:BOOMERANG sanctions - not to mention the uncivil behaviour over on my talk page, which MF has stated was directed at me simply because I wanted to archive an escalating thread: Here and here. Posting now to avoid edit conflicting - will edit this post as time goes on. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as co-proposer, if that is a word. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Marano's actions don't especially seem worse than any of the other 3-4 editors involved in this. Unless we're doling out blocks to everyone involved and meddling in all of this, this is not a good proposal. (An iban solves this issue better.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:56, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per Sergecross. An interaction ban would solve pretty much everything, I would hope. Of course, if the ban fails to gain consensus and shenanigans continue - yes, blocks (for multiple editors) would likely be in order. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:02, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. MF has done nothing to warrant a block. She was provoked by some comments made about her, but "gossip" does not justify what she is asking. That said, asking for something you're not entitled to doesn't give rise to a block. Coretheapple (talk) 15:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. The discussion is about an IBAN for WV and MF. That's it. If anything grows out out of this discussion then an IBAN for WV and MF is what is needed.--ML (talk) 19:53, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - A block is not justified and would only address (roughly) half of the problem.- MrX 19:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. As MrX notes, this would solve only part of the problem (though I reckon one-fourth, not one-half). Calidum ¤ 21:37, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Zero justification. MaranoFan is a good-faith editor who has been trying to do their best. This is a partisan proposal. Softlavender (talk) 01:31, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose as this is just another attempt by WV's meat puppet to attack an editor they disagree with. Legacypac (talk) 04:53, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I had absolutely nothing to do with this proposal, and Ches is no one's meat-puppet. Please stop with the nasty, hateful personal attacks and unfounded allegations against other editors. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 05:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Seconded. I'm not here to represent anybody else's views. I have my own, and this is essentially my proposal (two other editors had agreed with it beforehand, neither of whom were Winkelvi). --Ches (talk) (contribs) 09:54, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - I would support based on the the reasons given. There is nothing good-faith about MF, but I will agree that she has been trying her best (at being disruptive, rude and disrespectful). I don't think an IBAN would be sufficient as MF just can't help herself.  — Calvin999 09:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - The whole notion of this discussion is laughable. Some admin please speedy archive this. Lolol.--MaranoFan (talk) 09:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
  • You can't oppose (or support) a block on yourself. It's obvious that you wouldn't agree. You're not even taking this seriously and you are being disrespectful. Also, no admin will help you when you are calling them "some admin".  — Calvin999 15:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Yes you can. There are no restrictions on who can vote; I done the same thing with myself in the past. JAGUAR  16:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
      • Didn't I ask you to never communicate with me again. (Rhetorical; doesn't require an answer). 19:45, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
        • Thats irrelevant, what you said is objectively wrong, and any number of people would have said the same thing if he hadn't. And even that's ignoring the insane odds against this poorly thought out proposal. You're only reinforcing the idea that you're probably amongst the group of 3-4 editors that can't stop with the petty bickering that inspired a call for an Iban in the first place. Sergecross73 msg me 00:40, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
          • • It is relevant, shows you are an uninvolved editor. MF wants the IBAN too, so. Several editors here have said Oppose but have written that is is still a viable option to block MF. So it is more than 3-4 really.  — Calvin999 08:32, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - There doesn't seem to be a legitimate justification to block MaranoFan, so long as he agrees to keep his comments civil. Lack of evidence and canvassing, while not encouraged behavior, isn't a "blockable" offense to me - provided that he stops the canvassing when asked. ~Oshwah~ 15:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose MF has done nothing to deserve this proposition of a block. Calvin on the other hand, well... JAGUAR  15:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
  • The feeling is reassuringly mutual, Jaguar. Please grow up and stop harassing me/mentioning me/talking about me. You're coming across like a child.  — Calvin999 19:47, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
    • I was just pointing out the fact that anybody can vote in any debate, even if it's a block imposed on the intended user. I don't know how that's considered harassing. Believe me, I would be over the moon if somebody created a sub-thread "Proposed interaction ban between Calvin and Jaguar". JAGUAR  21:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
      • You are harassing me by making unnecessary comments. I already asked for an IBAN between us but nothing was done about it.  — Calvin999 08:32, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
        • What, me voting in this discussion is considered harassing? JAGUAR  10:25, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Since MF is a good-faith editor, a block for this user is a little too much. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose-My vote is probably not needed here, but I'll give it anyway. It is unfair to block only MaranoFan. Display name 99 (talk) 13:47, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

YuHuw's-endless disruptive edit war against the consensus:

It is true for every page he is editing from his last appearance on wikipedia under this name . Below only several examples: Please pay your special attention on his meaningless revert argumentation.

Karaites

1)

2)

3)

4)

5)

6)

7)

8)

9)

10)

11)

12)

13)

Qaraimits

exposed sockpuppetry by his anonimous IP. You can see his self exposure here

3)]

Karaite

1) exposed sockpuppetry as above under the same IP

2)

3)

4)

The user constantly distorts RS he cites or reverts without meaningful argumentation.Please help Неполканов (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

might shed some more light on this issue. It looks to be a long term issue ! KoshVorlon 18:56, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes please look at this edit in particular these meat-puppets gang up on anyone who touch their turf . Also pay very close attention to the evidence where Неполканов exposes himself as a puppet presented on this page . The lady doth protest too much, methinks. There are also several ANI cases to read through to catch up. Неполканов is an archetypal boy who cries wolf. YuHuw (talk) 04:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

First you claim that some conspiracy of missionaries is active in the articles, now you're claiming that a post where Неполканов lists the members of a consensus is him confessing to meat puppetry? That's just asinine, and yet another instance where you clearly are not assuming good faith. Please, show all the times where I've come to Неполканов's defense before you came in with your disruptive editing. If you can't provide such evidence, then don't make such accusations. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

YuHuw has a recurring problem where he ignores any consensus that he doesn't agree with, handles points raised for that consensus by either ignoring it, pretending he has already addressed it, changing the subject, or attributing (if perhaps pseudo-civilly) unevidenced bad-faith motives to others. This can be readily seen on my talk page and at Talk:Karaims. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Ian, I have apologized for inadvertently upsetting your religious conviction s so many times I am losing count. It was the week of Purim vacation and I was a little high spirited. I am really embarrassed and sorry about it. Everyone makes mistakes. There is no need to bare a grudge on the matter. You have in all innocence taken the wrong side on this matter. I am indeed the one who encourages WP:BRD discussion to reach consensus (extensively) just as you recommend, while the meat-puppets who WP:CANVASS each other blatantly (as noticed by another editor here) -and have sadly duped you- are the ones who don't if you could only get past your anger at my comment on Christian missionary activity then you might be able to see that more clearly. I sincerely wish you all the best Ian. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 06:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

P.S. Ian, you have not read carefully the edit he made which exposes him but if you follow the instructions posted you will discover as clear as day. I will post them again for you here. Неполканов must be considered to be either a clumsy meat-puppet or a sockpuppet of a clumsy puppet-master, as justified by examining the third occurrence of Неполканов (use the find function) on this page. It all brings into serious and justified question whether there is any sincere motivation behind complaints against me by those three extremely close friends. Best regards. YuHuw (talk) 06:20, 1 April 2016 (UTC) P.P.S. concerning WP:NPA every time one of them calls me Kaz it is a Personal attack for the resons specified in the history of their case against me. You can see the results of that personal attack in the history of my talk page. Three months of asking them to stop dozens and dozens of times when we all know what that means is why the wavering of WP:AGF in my attitude is justified. Nevertheless, I am still cordial and welcome input which is content based as long as there are no personal attacks like calling me stupid. YuHuw (talk) 06:31, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

For the hundredth time, my convictions (whatever they are) do not play into this. Whether someone is claiming that Muslims, Masons, or lizard people are taking over, I have a problem with any paranoid rant claiming any sort of editorial conspiracies as you have proclaimed. That you keep insisting otherwise, especially since you have no evidence, is a sign that you are not assuming good faith (and without the assumption of good faith, all pseudo-civility is worthless). Here we go again with you attributing bad-faith motives without evidence.

You cannot pretend to be engaged in BRD when you are continually reverting to your version and consider any consensus that disagrees with you to be the result of canvassing and meatpuppetry. Ian.thomson (talk) 06:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

There is no rant, there are only mistakes and apologies. Everyone makes mistakes Ian. Perhaps your conflict of interest in this matter makes your comments unhelpful. The discussion pages are proof of my frequent requests for sources and discussion to reach consensus whenever there has been a revert as per WP:BRD. I reverted you twice in a row but explained with good faith here and your current version of that page remains to this day after you ignored the discussions which led to that originally accepted version in the first place . Instead of taking us forward, you took it backwards but nevertheless I supported you in good faith. You just have a grudge against me which is very unfortunate. And I even supported you against that IP editor remember as a sign of my good faith towards you. You blocked that editor with no evidence besides two edits on Karaims as a puppet of Kaz remember? YuHuw (talk) 06:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC) By the way, this IP was yours too wasn't it Ian? YuHuw (talk) 06:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

You call feeding Kaz's accusations of admin abuse support? The IP editor behaved like Kaz and his IP address is located in the same place as other proven Kaz socks. Perhaps your agreement with him is clouding your judgement.

And what exactly would my conflict of interest be? If you are going to once again suggest religion (which again, would be assuming bad faith), then the only non-hypocritical course of action would leave the articles on Karaites and so forth to atheists and pagans.

As for the IP, that's obviously Kaz, and for you to say it is mine is a damn lie and a sign that you not assuming good faith. There is no reasonable way you could make such an accusation in good faith. Ian.thomson (talk) 07:08, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Ian wrote: "You call feeding Kaz's accusations of admin abuse support? " I am sorry I do not understand your meaning in this sentence. YuHuw (talk) 07:12, 1 April 2016 (UTC) And how can someone be a duck of an editor which has not been on wikipedia for probably years? Which proven sock of Kaz was not based in Cardiff? I have read through all the case history while I was accused and I do not recall the evidence you are referring to. If you have a fact to state please present it clearly. And I agreed with you not that IP remember that is why I reverted him and restored your version. Leaving the Karaites articles to atheists and pagans might be a good idea. :)

But why do you assume the IP I asked whether was you is obviously Kaz? I only asked because it looks like you had similar interests. Why on earth would it be bad faith? I see no similarity between Kaz's edits and that IP's edits. YuHuw (talk) 07:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC) I am not calling you any kind of puppet Ian. Everyone edits accidentally when signed out from time to time. It is no crime. But as it offends you so much I take back the question. Jeez YuHuw (talk) 07:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry I forgot to respond to your question in your edit summary . The thought had not crossed my mind. Meanwhile you on the other hand who decided to get involved after the matter was closed did call me Kaz after I was vindicated remember? I wrote to you about it and your disagreement with the admin decision is the source of your conflict of interest in this matter. As an admin yourself you should already be aware that the Kaz puppets are extremely cold. Best regards. YuHuw (talk) 07:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

The IP you mentioned behaves the opposite of me in this matter, and behaves like you and Kaz (and it locates to the sort of ISPs that Kaz has been known to use). You asked a question that insisted that that was my IP address. Doing so by accident would be incredibly stupid, which is why I cannot imagine that it was an accident. Having calmed myself down, I still cannot see how someone could ask such a question in good faith. Trolling is unacceptable here, even if it's to try and have your way in an article.

I was going to just suggest that maybe you need to be topic-banned. But if you keep trolling, I'm going to push for a block. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:06, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

You clearly have not calmed down and perhaps you never will with regards to me which is extremely unfortunate. Nevertheless, and in all sincerity, please provide one example of me trolling in this discussion above as you claim and tell me kindly in all good faith please as I have been very cordial with you, what exactly I said why exactly it is trolling and how exactly I should have expressed the concept in a way that you would not have considered trolling. Considering your conflict of interest concerning the matter one would expect there should be a Wiki policy against you being involved with me again. If however, you have nothing constructive to say and will only try to threaten and intimidate me again then I would prefer you simply do not post anything in response to this at all as I will find it yet another example of harassment from you which I have to remind you I have already asked once you to stop. Take it easy. YuHuw (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

You said that an IP address that clearly behaves more like you or Kaz belonged to me. How is that not trolling? Ian.thomson (talk) 04:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I did not say that. And sadly no-one involved in this behaves like me. If they did we would all be enjoying pleasant discussions on talk pages sharing knowledge like gentlemen about content and there would be no ANI postings, no insults, no attempts to extract personal information, no canvassing, no-edit-warring by meat-puppetry, no attempts to identify each other, no blocking IPs for 2 reasonable edits, no harassment and definitely no threats of any kind. That is what I imagined could happen when I signed up and that is what I was still hoping for after a month of signing up despite having suffered all of the above which has continued to now nearly 4 months down the line. I am not so snowy white anymore and have become more cynical about wikipedia but have not given up all hope yet. P.S. if you want some examples of trolling take a look at some of these edits especially . You should also know that Kaz is their code-word for calling someone a Pedo. It might be best to stop calling people Kaz and unravel yourself from their dupe until you have become familiar with their whole game first. If I knew 4 moths ago what I know now, I would never have signed up to defend User:Wbm1058 in the first place . Take care. YuHuw (talk) 19:30, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Please can you stop these unsubstantiated allegations that other editors have accused you of sexual offences. This kind of trolling by YuHuw is a breach of of the Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks policy.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:53, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

YuHuw, here you said "By the way, this IP was yours too wasn't it Ian?" That IP address is one that obviously behaves like either you or Kaz. Now you are straight up lying when the evidence is on the very page, in this very conversation. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

The IP has no behavior comparable to me. Your spin-doctoring, harassing, personal attacks, breach of assuming good faith, trolling, etc. are all too much. I have tried to be cordial but this conversation is going no-where. You should simply be saying sorry for calling me a "Kaz" and we will leave it at that. But you won't so I am taking a break. I am not going to respond here again unless someone neutral with some knowledge of the history @Someguy1221: @Liz: @Zzuuzz:steps in to try and mediate between us. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 04:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Of the two of us, who has been reverting Toddy1 on topics relating to Karaites, Keraites, and so forth? The IP is closer to you than me, and denying that would just be further trolling. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I looked at YuHuw edit history, and I see a lot of reverts with no explanation, claiming that people are lying or sockpuppets, etc. In the discussion above he flatly refuses to accept that he did anything wrong, and the accuses somebody (unclear who) of harassment with no evidence. This has to stop. If YuHuw does not stop accusing people of bad faith and reverting without explanation admin action is necessary IMO. YuHuw should focus the energy in a more constructive way. --OpenFuture (talk) 12:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history of Keraites, I am really turned off by the edit summaries: "lying in edit summary to pretend he is removing something", "This is the 4th or 5th revert of this issue by this user since he has re-signed to WP with a new ID", "undo restoration of User:Ancietsteppe's POV by Meatpuppet", "incessant edit summary insults is very disparaging and harassing", "revert edits by "YuHuw". If you read the new source he added, it does not support the statement he cited it for. Typical of Kaz", and on and on. But I can't see how we can single anyone out for sanctions without sanctioning the whole lot of you. So the seemingly endless drama-board threads related to this have gone on for too long. The above is for me, too mind-numbing and TL;DR for me to slog through it all. I'm going to try to take this to Talk:Keraites and attempt to sort out the most recent two-edit revert war on that page. Y'all should focus more on content and stop disparaging each other. wbm1058 (talk) 17:24, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

YuHuw is editing as an IP editor again. He is "answering" a question raised at Talk:Keraites#"Molokan" heresy. His "answer" consisted of rehashing the statement in the article and then changing the subject.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

It's increasingly bizarre that someone who objects so vehemently to being called Kaz should then proceed to act exactly like... KAZ. _Fortuna 07:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

More WP:BATTLEGROUND from Jytdog at Berylliosis

A month ago I was blissfully unaware of Jytdog. Then he caused a car crash at the RepRap project article, which gave rise to two deeply unfavourable media reports on Misplaced Pages's practices and this ANI thread. Today he's suggesting I need to get a "Moron Diploma".

Both of these show just the same WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, with editors and their work dismissed as "Garbage content based on garbage sources".

I noticed this today at User talk:Wtshymanski#Edit war warning. As those with long memories will know, there is little love lost between Wtshymanski and myself, but I've always recognised that he knew his subject - a courtesy clearly not being extended by Jytdog here.

As is typical (and to some degree commendable) this began by Jytdog removing sources that he took issue with for being unreliable. The trouble is that he removed a whole section to do so, on the far-from-controversial claim that there are toxicity hazards to working with beryllium. He proceeded to 4RR edit war to remove this. Much better editing would have been (if he dislikes these sources so much) to have found some other sources, from the vast numbers that are out there on this uncontroversial and widely described topic.

The main problem though is less what he did and more how he goes about it. Just take a look at the talk page comments, accusing Wtshymanski of edit-warring and my talk page (14 posts tonight!). See also WP:RSN#Documents uploaded to ScribD. This battlegrounding is just not acceptable here - other editors, even myself, just do not deserve this bile from Jytdog. This is far from a new problem either, ANIs passim. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Andy is angry at me and I hear that but he is so angry he is not thinking straight.

I removed one sentence (not a "whole section) from the lead that became a subject of dispute - here is the relevant diff where it is being restored by Wtshymansk. I know I am too harsh sometimes. What is completely unacceptable is Andy's behavior here. His comments here and here are inappropriate for an article Talk page. He is clearly more focused on me than on the actual sources and contents there, not dealing at all with the actual problems I raised on the Talk page.

As he acknowledges he was attracted to the article via the Talk page of Wtshymansk where I had left an left] a 3RR notice, which appears to be on his watchlist as he has commented there many times; as shortly after I left that comment he came to the article, which he had never edited before, and reverted me and then shortly after that responded to me at W's Talk page here. That is blatant HOUNDING and edit warring too, as there was already a section open at the Talk page for discussion.

As I did at W's talk page, I warned him again on his talk page not to turn Misplaced Pages into a WP:BATTLEFIELD and not follow me around picking fights. It is good that he opened this ANI instead of continuing to do so.

About the "moron diploma" thing, as I noted on his talk page here his HOUNDING is frustrating me, and yes I let myself write something snarky. What I had written was if he accepts the one source from ScribD he should accept the other, but then I removed that (I disowned it - because it is clearly inflammatory and there is no point in going there) and my final comment was here. I removed it before he even reacted to it (I am guessing before he saw it). His inappropriate comments still stand.

And about the "two deeply unfavourable media reports" - you can read those yourselves. It is Andy's take that they are "deeply unfavourable". I think I represented WP pretty well in the 2nd one where i had a chance to speak.

Going forward I hope to have as little interaction with Andy Dingley as possible: I don't much like the way he evaluates sources nor the way he operates, screwing up articles pursuing me and distorting things in this ANI filing (bringing sources to RSN is "battleground" behavior? no way. It is true that his position is getting little support there - that happens sometimes). In any case I will expect the same from him, however this ANI comes out. I very much hope that his pursuit of me does not become a recurrent issue. I will not, and have not, pursued him.

I am not going to post further here and will accept whatever the community says. Again, I acknowledge I can be harsh but for Andy to follow me to an article and blindly revert, adding back crappy, OFFTOPIC content harms the encyclopedia and he should get dinged for that. Jytdog (talk) 21:35, 31 March 2016 (UTC) (clarifying redaction made Jytdog (talk) 22:59, 1 April 2016 (UTC))

Does this look like "crappy, OFFTOPIC content" to anyone else? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:08, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

That is not the dif under dispute. Again you misrepresent things. Bah. here is where you added back in the crappy, OFFTOPIC content. and i should add crappy-because-badly sourced, and crappy-because-carrying-out-an-OFFTOPIC-dispute-in-the-citations content. Even so, in the dif you bring, you show that you added better sources (keeping the crappy ones, ack) but you drill yet deeper into the question being fought out in the citations of the original crappy content. This article is about a disease, and whether or not Beryllium was used in lighting fixtures has nothing at all to do with the topic. It is not clear to me that you are even aware what the topic is, so focused on your anger at me, are you. said yoda. Jytdog (talk) 22:42, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Possible trout in response to Jytdog's initial action(s), boomerang for the filer of this report as frivolous and pointy as well as his own obvious battleground behavior that escalated things needlessly. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 22:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Well hello again Wikelvi, fancy meeting you here! Andy Dingley (talk) 22:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Erm ... the RepRap article has had some very obvious problems, and Jytdog pointed them out. Whether you think the Motherboard piece was a good thing or a bad thing very much depends on your approach to content quality. I thought Jytdog did a very good job describing the problems Misplaced Pages articles like that often suffer from. (See Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-03-23/In_the_media.) Andreas JN466 04:12, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

He can describe the problems without blanking 80% of an article. It's not what he does that's the problem it's how he does it. Other editors shouldn't have to put up with the constant abuse that is Jytdog's seemingly only way of communicating with other people. He is not the sole custodian of sacred knowledge, but that's how he seems to operate. Blanking the work of others because it's "Garbage content based on garbage sources" is both inaccurate and wholly disrespectful. Other editors do have something to contribute here, not just him.

Nor is the result of this a positive improvement in content. What's the point in stripping references that don't meet some arbitrary rule if the content is then simply wrong? The RepRap article said afterwards "the company behind RepRap folded a year ago", which was wrong on both counts and defamatory to the subject. The article on acute beryllium poisoning is badly confused over the two exposure routes for beryllium and why those two different compounds give rise to two clinically very different conditions. Jytdog is so busy steam-rollering his view of which sources must be deleted that he takes no time to actually understand the topic, and he drives away anyone else who does. This is not a positive outcome to the project. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:36, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• For a complaint about WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour, this filing does seem rather ... WP:BATTLEGROUND-y. Alexbrn (talk) 08:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• FFS. Guys, the content looks perfectly acceptable but it does not seem to me to belong in the lede, as it's distinctly niche. Please read WP:LAME, bury the hatchet and move on. We have enough trouble fighting off the nutters without taking lumps out of each other over things where reasonable people might differ. Guy (Help!) 11:26, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

There is "differ" and there is "delete the lot, edit-war to keep doing it and abuse other editors in the process". Just look at his outright harassment of CaptainYuge over the RepRap page. Look at the shit list of editors he posted to that talk: page of editors that he had decided were unfit to edit there. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:36, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Uninvolved non-admin comment
  • Best case scenario: both users end this discussion and move on to more important things, and the discussion is closed with no further action.
  • Alternative scenario: one of the two users insist on WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour by continuing this discussion, in which case I move that user be given a (short) block.
  • Worst case scenario: both users continue this pointless back-and-forth, in which case I suggest both be given a (short) block. Jeppiz (talk) 11:41, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• just fyi, the focus on whether Be was used in lamps and when, has been pursued yet further at the article about this medical condition. The article was very bad (version before my edits) and I dramatically improved it, bring it in line with MEDMOS and MEDRS (version when i was done). This focus on a TRIVIAL and OFFTOPIC point of content seems to be driven by my participation at the article, so i have unwatched the article. That aspect of this is just a waste of everyone's time and doesn't improve the encyclopedia or the community; quite the opposite; I will leave it to others to maintain the article. That is just about the actual point of content in the article. I understand that Andy is upset with my behavior and of course that can continue to be discussed here. I just want the article content not to get warped as Andy pursues me. Jytdog (talk) 18:54, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

You say " I have no desire to be in this discussion. " at Talk: as if that's a good thing. You're great at seagull management, but you refuse to work with other editors. This is Misplaced Pages, not Jytdogpedia, you have to learn to work with other editors.

As to the issue of Be in fluorescent tubes, this is significant in the history of berylliosis firstly because it demonstrates the typical risk of berylliosis: this is an occupational condition, it's not naturally occurring. Secondly this is the exposure context where the hazard was first recognised, and hygiene measures taken to avoid its risk in the future. It belongs here, in any comprehensive or historical coverage of the condition.

This issue, and its discussion, is off-topic for an ANI thread but if you insist on treating it as an attack on other editors then it's going to get a response here. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Agree with the comment by Alexbrn who aptly stated regarding WP:BATTLEGROUND problems with the filer of this report: "For a complaint about BATTLEGROUND behaviour, this filing does seem rather ... BATTLEGROUND-y." In addition, Winkelvi is correct by pointing out that WP:BOOMERANG could be applicable here regarding the filer for WP:POINT disruption. I've looked over the relevant article history and evidence presented above and agree with Jytdog that these comments DIFF 1 and DIFF 2 on the talk page are disruptive and harm the community's ability to improve the article. Jytdog should be commended for efforts to improve the site with regards to application of WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS. — Cirt (talk) 22:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Cirt, are you trying to redefine WP:INVOLVED here? You and Winkelvi are behind the most fatuous and obviously biased deletion I've seen at Commons in years: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Heidi Cruz_MontTXFundraiser Feb 27 2016--two3.jpg Commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#Civility and tone. There's a thoroughly trivial deletion request at Commons that you started, I commented upon, and now you show up here just to cause trouble. Coincidence? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:41, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

The assumptions of bad faith by the filer are remarkable evidence of further WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, or at the very least, failure to recognize I've already commented in multiple threads on this ANI page in the past 24 hours about many different topics. — Cirt (talk) 01:58, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

So tell us Cirt, just what did bring you to an article on this obscure medical condition? You're fooling no-one. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:51, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Edit warring and disruption by Andy Dingley

• Update: It looks like Jytdog has chosen to disengage himself from the article Berylliosis. ("unwatching")

Despite this, unfortunately it appears the filer of this ANI thread has continued the edit-warring, disruption, and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. When Jytdog left, the filer picked right up edit-warring against a different editor. Some examples of recent disruption:

• 10:49, 31 March 2016‎ -- "restore section - there is no contradiction between these two"

• 15:07, 31 March 2016‎ -- "Restore with another ref"

• 23:52, 1 April 2016‎ -- "You've been told once already. Undid revision 713104471 by QuackGuru"

Unfortunately, this now appears to be an ongoing pattern of disruption against multiple editors by the ANI filer. — Cirt (talk) 02:44, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• continued to edit this page Andy Dingley (talk) 14:08, 6 April 2016 (UTC)]

Cirt, please do not remove this note for a third time. You are making a now false statement in defence of Jytdog, who has clearly not behaved as he promised to. To keep reinstating this claim, against an obvious edit history to the contrary, is to whitewash the behaviour of the subject of this ANI post. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, for not adding this comment in-between my above comment, as you wrongly did previously, twice, at DIFF 1 and again at DIFF 2. — Cirt (talk) 15:41, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• Classic content dispute. Andy, please stop bringing these content disputes, front-loaded in your OPs with trumped-up unrelated drama, to ANI. This is strictly a content dispute, and resolvable on the article's talk page by discussion, consensus, DR, RFC, whatever it takes. I'm inclined to agree with others that a boomerang is possibly in order because it's the second time in a month or so that you've wasted ANI time on this sort of thing . Softlavender (talk) 14:18, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Agree with Softlavender about WP:BOOMERANG here, especially after reading the close summary at the prior ANI thread cited by Softlavender, where admin Spike Wilbury closed it as: "Content dispute, primarily. ... These ridiculous threads where content disputes are spilling over into AN/I". These frivolous ANI thread filings by the current ANI filer are a waste of the community's patience and disruptive to the project. — Cirt (talk) 16:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Hengistmate has been deliberately trolling and socking me for years, and has been repeatedly blocked as a result. That is not a "content dispute" and it was thoroughly deserving of ANI. Nor does it have any relation to Jytdog's behaviour here.

If you are complaining of me edit-warring here (despite Jytdog already being at 4RR), then you know where ANEW is.

Cirt, you are only here because of a bizarre deletion request you and Winkelvi are involved in at Commons and both of you saw this as a good opportunity to troll me here. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:36, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Pure content dispute, no clear evidence of edit warring submitted by OP (edit: referring to Andy Dingley). In fact, the claim of "4RR" implies that Jytdog violated 3RR on some article. I don't see what article that is. As of the filing of this complaint, on Berylliosis, Jytdog had only performed 3 non-consecutive edits in the previous 24 hours, and one was not a revert as far as I can tell. The claim of edit warring seems spurious as well, or at least unproven. I concur that a boomerang sanction or admonishment should lie, not only for the (I'll assume unintentionally) misleading complaint, but also for the combative stream of responses in this thread. This is a massive waste of time. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 17:13, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

@Mendaliv:I thought the term "edit warring" and "disruption" meant any type of edit warring, not only solely 3RR itself. Surely there is ongoing disruption at the article by the original ANI filer. — Cirt (talk) 17:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, where I said OP I was referring to Andy Dingley's OP in the top section. Perhaps I should have made my comment up there rather than down here. I've added a clarifier. Anyway, I agree that there's actually ongoing disruption at Berylliosis by Andy Dingley, as you've shown above Cirt. I think that taken with Andy's conduct in the original thread here, some sanction is merited. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 17:27, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

And now that Andy has retroactively amended his initial posting to include diffs of a supposed "4RR edit war", we can see that there's a greater than 24 hour gap in the claimed reverts. While the term "4RR" is meaningless (there is no four revert rule), terms like that are almost exclusively used to refer to a violation of 3RR involving more reverts (actually 4RR shouldn't be used at all since a 3RR violation necessarily involves 4 reverts). Someone making four non-consecutive reverts in a 72 hour period hasn't violated 3RR. If Andy intends to prove that those four reverts add up to an edit war, I think we're going to need more than that. Worst case, Jytdog should be told to be careful not to violate 3RR, and that edit warring can be called in the absence of a 3RR violation. I'm more concerned with Andy Dingley's conduct. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 18:02, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

When you complain over a lack of diffs, don't then call to block someone when they give you those diffs! 3RR/24 is a "bright line" for edit-warring. As any of ANEW will inform you though, this is not the only indication of edit-warring. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:12, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Don't say 4RR when you don't intend to mean the person has violated 3RR, then. The second "R" in 3RR means "rule". When you say 4RR you're implying a rule was broken. I don't see it. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 18:25, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Andy Dingley has now followed me to yet another article and his intent to WP:HOUND is clear - here is where he reverted me, and again restoring badly/unsourced sourced content (this time what was sourced, was sourced to Investopedia). I am now requesting a 48 hour block to prevent further disruption and a 1-way interaction ban for Andy with regard to me. Jytdog (talk) 00:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

"Followed"? To an article I edited months ago? Don't flatter yourself.

There is no justification in using a valid complaint against a source to start blanking whole paragraphs as well, when they contain simply sourceable, uncontroversial content for which there are abundant other sources.

And what's your excuse for this edit? Sheer carelessness. Which you insisted on doing twice, even when reverted by another editor. You are too blinkered by your desire to Right Great Wrongs to even pay attention to what you're doing. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I have apparently become your "great wrong" to right. I believe you will be blocked and will face an i-ban for hounding me, but we will see. You are continually bringing unclean hands with your editing decisions here; your edits are clearly POINTy and about me, and not about high-quality content in WP. Jytdog (talk) 00:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

You're very good at assigning all sorts of motives to other editors. This was a question about your edits here. Why was your (seriously wrong) edit so important that you had to do it twice, over another editor? Have you even looked at what you did here? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:33, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Angry or not, it is remarkable how often Jytdog is mentioned on this page due to battleground issues. To the point that he even had a ArbCom-case and a indefinite topic ban on his head... The Banner talk 00:12, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Just like Andy Dingley has his "fans", I have mine. Yep. Jytdog (talk) 00:13, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support 1 week or 1 month one-way interaction ban: Andy needs to be encouraged to work on something else. I think a short-term interaction ban will do that. If he comes off it and goes right back to pestering Jytdog with spurious nonsense like this, we can talk about something longer term. I'm just not a fan of indef editing restrictions out the gate, and would rather not block a long-term editor when there's another way to convey the message to "Do something else". —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 00:39, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

A "one way" ban? Why? So that Jytdog can keep awarding me "Moron Diplomas"? So that he can describe adding needed sources as "crappy, OFFTOPIC content"? Or just so that he can keep describing other editors' work as "Garbage content based on garbage sources" and "demeaning to WP"? And this is all from "Mr Clean Hands"? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

If Jytdog starts poking the beehive once a restriction is in place, then we can talk. If there's support for it instead, though, I could see a temp two-way interaction ban. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 00:55, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I can live with the try-a-short-term remedy approach. I do not pursue Andy; this has not happened and you will not see it. Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support 1 week or 1 month one-way interaction ban: Agree with Mendaliv, especially "If he comes off it and goes right back to pestering Jytdog with spurious nonsense like this, we can talk about something longer term." This disturbing behavior pattern, now across multiple articles against Jytdog, has gone on long enough. — Cirt (talk) 04:11, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment: I just reverted this above mentioned edit by Jytdog. I have not scrutined the history of Jytdog nor read the whole discussion above nor looked at the Beryllium dispute, and I am pretty sure they were in good faith when they made the edit.... but if I should judge their contributions on the basis of this sole edit, I should conclude they are a vandal, or at best that they have not the competence to edit Misplaced Pages. They actually blindly removed TWICE all the categories, the Commons template, the "Pharmaceutical companies of the United States" navigation box (in which the relevant article was actually linked), the portal templates, the official website. They were removed with edit summaries saying they are spam while none of these are spam. The supposed (a couple of them seems ultimately acceptable to me) spammy external links had been already hidden using the <!-- --> template. Cavarrone 07:56, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for that fix. Yes I didn't catch that my removal of the WP:ELNO-violating external links included the cats and navbox. Thanks for catching that. Another user removed those ELs after you reverted me. Again, my bad on the cat/navbox removals. Jytdog (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support 1 month one-way interaction ban per Medaliv and Cirt. Not much use in making it only 1 week at this point. And keeping open the possibility of revisiting. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Why? I haven't insinuated that Jytdog is a moron or garbage, as they have. I'm not the one making 4RR edits, or pushed repeated edits that another uninvolved editor has compared to a vandal or a CIR case.

Cirt is the one calling for an interaction ban, and they're (like Winkelvi) only popping up unannounced because I called them both out over a bogus deletion request at Commons. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The short answer is because you seem to be refusing to drop the stick here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Which stick is that? I've had a stream of abuse from Jytdog and I'm entitled to respond to it. Have I edited the Berylliosis article since? Have you seen my edits since with QuackGuru? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:35, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

• Agree with Tryptofish here, 1 month one-way interaction ban at this point is probably better than one week, could always revisit at a later point in time. Thank you, Tryptofish, much appreciated, — Cirt (talk) 23:29, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

So what does bring you here, Cirt, if it's not your push to delete at Commons? I know Winkelvi already happened to be on the carpet at ANI over his behaviour in trying to delete the whole article. You're staying awfully quiet on this. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Already answered, above. I echo Tryptofish at this point, please drop the stick here. Thank you ever so much, — Cirt (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Quoting scary ALLCAPS is no substitute for answering the question. Go on, why are you and Winkelvi here at all if it's not just simple retaliation against another editor who challenged your behaviour at Commons. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

It is retaliation. They were not involved until you disagreed with them concerning the Heidi Cruz picture above. They should just move along and let unbiased editors work out the issues with Jytdog. It is shameful the way that Admin Cirt is retaliating against your on the spot comments at Commons. Cirt is an admin and he should know better.--ML (talk) 23:42, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Nope. Wrong. I'd already commented in multiple locations on this ANI page in numerous different threads before this one. — Cirt (talk) 23:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

• Andy you have stopped pursuing me out there in the 'pedia and I am grateful for that. And I have heard your concern here about my harshness. I have. If you would agree to let this go, this thread can just be closed or allowed to drift into the archive, and that will be that. I hope you will agree. Jytdog (talk) 05:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I must say that it's incredibly surprising how many WP:BATTLEGROUND complaints there are about Jytdog here. Almost every time I check this noticeboard, in fact. — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 07:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
    • If one develops a bit of a reputation, or if others see a complaint, then it is certainly possible that they can just play "follow the leader." Smoke often indicates fire, but isn't really proof of it. Jytdog deals in a number of truly contentious topics, and as a result faces a lot of criticism. It isn't unreasonable to see someone who themselves is a frequent target of others to develop a bit of a battleground view if they see that others are to an extent engaged in battleground behavior toward them. Yeah, I've had some fairly strong disagreements with him myself, whether he remembers them or not, and I can see that maybe he is a bit too "quick on the trigger" once in a while. In at least some of the topics he edits in, several other editors don't get reported here, but taken to AE to be dealt with there, sometimes rather severely. That doesn't seem to be the case here, thankfully. Personally, I don't see a lot to be done here myself, other than maybe application of a WP:TROUT or smaller fish to one or more individuals, and hope that such a light reprimand might be found acceptable. John Carter (talk) 21:05, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Further harassment by Jytdog using SPI

Far from disengaging or "this thread can just be closed or allowed to drift into the archive, and that will be that.", Jytdog has now proceeded to open a deliberately harassing SPI: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Andy Dingley on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a new tactic for Jytdog. He did it to CaptainYuge a few weeks ago. In that case he also refused to accept the decision of the SPI and continued to harrass and insult the presumed innocent Yuge: User talk:Jytdog#Final warning for edit warring Although in that same thread he says he wouldn't try it on me! Mind you, given his other statements of ":I am unwatching this article. I have no desire to be in this discussion." and " I do not pursue Andy; this has not happened and you will not see it." and their retrospective lack of accuracy, we can't place too much faith in any such statement.

Baseless accusations of socking with no other purpose are considered to be a form of harassment.

Just above, Mendaliv refers to the possibility of, "If Jytdog starts poking the beehive". I consider this beehive thoroughly poked. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• NOTE: Most certainly NOT "baseless accusations". Valid evidence presented by Jytdog at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Andy Dingley. ---> Already led to one block on a sock account by admin JzG (talk · contribs). The evidence presented by Jytdog was compelling enough to lead admin JzG to block and in the block log note: "A sock of someone, it doesn't matter much who.". Therefore, Jytdog was correct to file the sock investigation, as it was borne out by the admin action by JzG. Further investigation is needed. — Cirt (talk) 14:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

If Jytdog has suspicions about one editor, there are acceptable channels to deal with that. These do not involve raising baseless SPIs on other uninvolved editors, especially not those editors with whom Jytdog is already deeply WP:INVOLVED. False accusations of socking breach NPA and this is not the first time that Jytdog has used this method. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:39, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

The accusations by Jytdog are valid and led to a block by JzG (talk · contribs). Therefore they were not baseless. WP:INVOLVED links to Misplaced Pages:Administrators. Jytdog is not an administrator, last time I checked. — Cirt (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

"The block was good because it was a block." Andy Dingley (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Not sure why you are using quotation marks here in a misleading manner. I never said that. — Cirt (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

You said, literally, "Therefore". Implying that their baselessness was refuted because they had already been acted upon. This is an obvious logical fallacy. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

It is reasonable to say that something which is acted upon is not baseless, unless one wishes to imply that the person acting upon it is acting perhaps irrationally. The question is whether Andy is reasonably the sockpuppet master here. I tend to very much doubt that is the case myself, but there are and/or have been cases of editors who seem to be working together which are all but indistinguishable in some cases from sockpuppets. The only way one can know whether an SPI concern is valid is through filing one, ultimately, and, while it might conceivably if done too frequently be seen as an abuse of that procedure, it is at best a very long stretch in at least my eyes to say that a single instance of filing an SPI which is found to be actionable in some way necessarily qualifies primarily as a personal attack on the person perhaps falsely named as the sockmaster. Jytdog can at times be a bit overenthusiastic in some areas, and it may be that in this case the party named is not the sockpuppeteer. But there are conceivably sockpuppets of meatpuppets, or other forms of off-wiki coordination (none of which I suspect here either). There are also, sometimes, simply, old troublemakers coming back at an unfortunate time. The request seems to have been a reasonable one, even if the individual named probably isn't the real sock master, and I can't criticize anyone for basically finding an obvious sock, even if they get the identity of the sockpuppeteer wrong. John Carter (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, John Carter (talk · contribs), I agree that the SPI investigation was warranted, and it is certainly possible the case page name may be changed by the end of it, but there was at least one sock blocked by an admin so far. — Cirt (talk) 16:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

@Cirt: There was a sock blocked by an admin based on behavioral evidence. After the fact, technical evidence proved the account were unrelated. That block should've been overturned unless the account could be tied to a different master.--v/r - TP 19:12, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Read the block log note by JzG (talk · contribs). — Cirt (talk) 19:18, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

You mean, "Clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia. A sock of someone, it doesn't matter much who."

For NOTHERE, that's a hell of a judgement to make for an editor who has made one article space edit, one to the talk: page and two to a user talk:. We can't get real vandals blocked in that time, let alone indeffed.

As a sock, then "it doesn't matter much who." is shorthand for "indef block from an unproven suspicion" (and in this case, a disproved suspicion). We have, or used to have, some policies that said admins couldn't make arbitrary blocks on their own whim, there had to be some process first. For socking it is SPI. In this case they were blocked during the SPI (Why? What was the urgency for an editor with only one article edit?) and an SPI that then cleared them of being the claimed sock. Yet you are still defending this indef block. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:28, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• just a quick note here; i was not happy filing that SPI and I hope it isn't Andy. As I noted in the filing, the behavior of the new account was just too weird. I'll note here is somebody at 62.255.240.157 (a library in the UK) stirring the pot: dif, dif, dif. The now-blocked Milligansuncle? This is all just weird but I clearly have a new hater. Jytdog (talk) 18:35, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

SPI was just closed. I have a bad feeling about all this; the person editing from the library obviously understands how to avoid CU etc. Jytdog (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

The SPI was closed. But half an hour later you're still insinuating that 62.255.240.157 is someone's sock (presumably mine!). You also seem to know that it's "a library in the UK", but how you might know such a thing is beyond me.

You did this over CaptainYuge too. Opening an SPI is one thing, but to continue to insinuate that someone is a sock and the SPI was just wrong not to notice this is harassment. It's also a very convenient reversal of your position over the block of Milligansuncle: when your enemies are blocked arbitrarily, that's "proof". When an SPI concludes against socking though, that's because the SPI must have been wrong, compared to your magic library finding powers. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:04, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

The block of Milligansuncle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was based primarily on taken in the context of the totality of the user's edits. I don't give a damn whose sock it is, it's not a new user and definitely not here to help. That kind of JAQing off we can do without. Guy (Help!) 19:25, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Anyone reading the IP's talk page will read that it is a library. And WHOIS says Reading Borough Council (Library Project). Doug Weller talk 19:53, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

If the RIPE is correct, then maybe. The talk page comment is 7 years old though. Looking at the route, it looks (IMHO) much more like a general Virgin retail ISP for South Yorkshire. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• Jytdog, when did you stop beating your wife? Your comments here, "An SPI itself is just an investigation; a question." show that you still, even after this, have no understanding of SPI. As the edit notice on the SPI page itself states, "Do not make accusations without providing evidence. Doing so is a personal attack and will likely be summarily removed." This is not merely a "question", an SPI is a strong insinuation that someone is guilty of an offence with a summary ban. You do not throw such things around lightly. You certainly do not do them in the middle of an ANI thread where the subject of your accusation has shown evidence of your abusive and harassing behaviour.

Why, in all this, do you feel the need to apologise to Conzar, but not me? Andy Dingley (talk) 19:57, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Conzar is new to WP and doesn't understand how things work here, and if you read what i actually wrote to them, you will see that i didn't apologize. I explained. You are more experienced and usually sane; if you look at the evidence I presented at the SPI and especially the way I presented it, you will see how strange the behavior of the account has been, and how it weirdly pointed to you. And you will see neither glee nor anger in my filing, but puzzlement seeking answers. It is SPI and not SPA ( as in "accusation"). You call it "fatuous" below and cite the instructions above. You have been around long enough to know that a CU would not have been done at SPI if I hadn't brought enough evidence to justify that; I did and it was. You are so angry that you are warping things left and right, and that isn't helping you convince anyone and you put yourself at risk for community action the more you keep pushing this way. You are on a warpath and you should get off it, Andy. Jytdog (talk) 21:39, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I want to add here that when i wrote the SPI I considered writing: "it may be that this is a really sophisticated sock that wanted me to believe it was Andy (the edit at Calvert's Engine being just a bit too blatantly perfect a "tell") and who ever it is may laugh their asses off after i post this, and will surely laugh harder at how angry it will make Andy, especially if the sockmaster turns out not to be Andy (which would not surprise me)." I didn't write that because it is too conspiratorial sounding and i really wanted the CU done, but it is seeming less unlikely now, especially given the behavior of the 65 IP address subsequent to the SPI filing, which just stirred the pot yet further. anyway, that is the "pot-stirring set-up" theory behind that sock ...Jytdog (talk) 22:04, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog, DO NOT describe other editors - any other editors - as "usually sane", with the obvious implication that they're currently insane.

I put myself at risk of community action? When did I describe you as a moron? When did I file an SPI against you? Especially not one so unconvincing that you describe it yourself as "strange" and "weird".

Stop these attacks. You have gone on long enough. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:39, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Andy I wish you would calm yourself. I said above that I don't want to interact with you, and I don't. You have asked me direct questions twice now. I answered the first, and I will answer the second, and then no more. The SPI had enough evidence that a CU was performed. I didn't file the SPI gleefully nor angrily. I didn't distort anything. And I didn't actually call you a moron and even after I wrote that you should accept the "moron certificate" (as a valid source) in the same way you accepted the other as a valid source, i removed that and acknowledged it was inflammatory, and you keep writing as though I am defending it or even left it in place. I'm not.

You are not acting rationally here; you are distorting and attacking and attacking - like just in this exchange, describing an SPI that was solid enough to get a CU as "fatuous" or as somehow invalid, and saying that i outright called you a "moron" or "garbage".

On top of that, you keep pushing for ... something... and lashing out, but whatever it is that you want is not happening. The only sanctions under discussion have been a one-way iban on you, and possibly a mutual one. That's it.

As I have said before, it doesn't seem that my interacting with you is productive at all - so I will go back to trying to avoid you.

I'll end by repeating what I wrote above; the best thing all around would just be to let his go. I do understand your original objection. Jytdog (talk) 03:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• I've read the SPI, and although it looks like most or all of the combatants are physically separated from one another, it also looks like there are an awful lot of people in diverse places who are looking to hound Jytdog. With respect to the ANI discussion here, it sure looks to me like an interaction ban is overdue. I'm not sure whether it should be one-way, per the subsection above, or two-way. But I think the goal here needs to be to get as much disengagement as we can. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

There's no need for any sort of ban on him, I just want him to stop filing fatuous SPIs against me. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:35, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• further to the pot-stirring theory, this SPI was filed claiming that Cirt and I are one person based on this thread. The filer of that is apparently watching this with some glee. Jytdog (talk) 22:13, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
  • About the filer of that SPI: I looked at the SPI, and there is something that I would like admins to take a second look at there. After the SPI was closed with no action (and, indeed, it is patently ridiculous), but before it was archived, another editor posted a note there, saying that the filer is a sock of another account, that has been indeffed for other instances of socking, but there is no explanation of the connection in this case. (Not related in any way to Andy, please let me make clear.) I don't know what to make of that, but given the clearly disruptive intention of the filing, it seems likely that something is going on there, and it merits a second look. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:38, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Onthost

Per Tryptofish above (and others) I have reviewed the edit history of Onthost (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and blocked the account as a disruptive alternate account. I think some people have suspicions as to the master account, I don't think we need to go into that because the pattern of edits after a six year break is pretty clearly not the work of an editor acting in good faith, and is quite likely someone evading a block. Guy (Help!) 09:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

So we have this and this. What is accurate in that, who knows. Jytdog (talk) 19:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that they too have been blocked. It sure looks like a full sock drawer. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

And it has gotten stranger, with this. Jytdog (talk) 00:40, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

178.217.194.100's long-term edit warring and continued addition of unsourced statistics

Last year, Jolly Janner and I repeatedly tried to explain to 178.217.194.100 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) at User talk:178.217.194.100 the need to source additions of statistics to demography articles. The editor largely ignored our advice, and engaged in edit warring. As well as adding statistics without sources, their additions are often poorly formatted, they have ignored repeated advice about the correct use of commas for thousand separators and full stops for decimal points, and the edits are likely in violation of WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. I noticed today that the editor has resumed their behaviour, restoring unsourced material that was recently removed from the Demographics of France article and re-adding statistics about England and Wales to Demography of England that were previously removed. I think that enough is enough and some action needs to be taken to stop this disruptive behaviour. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I would like to see a block at this point. I originally had hoped the user had gone quiet, because they had decided to turn away from Misplaced Pages, but it's clear this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. The scale of the edits is huge (the user also edits under different IPs), which means the work require to revert them is huge. It's a shame, since the user obviously has the potential to make useful edits. In light of their inability to listen, a block is what I see as the only option. I don't ever recall seeing them make an edit that wasn't reverted? Jolly Ω Janner 07:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I can almost forgive the edit warring - the IP editor clearly believes that these highly detailed statistical tables are useful additions - but they stubbornly refuse to listen to advice about correct formatting, suggesting that they are not really here to build an encyclopedia but rather to bludgeon away according to their own rules. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• My recommendation would be a fairly long block and a six-month topic ban on stats charts. Softlavender (talk) 09:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• It would be great to get input and/or action from some administrators on this. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• This issue appears to still be ongoing. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment: Agree with recommendation by Softlavender for a long block and topic ban on the IP user, who unfortunately seems unwilling or willfully ignoring requests to engage in further discussion about the matter. — Cirt (talk) 00:33, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Is this still a problem? I see a comment from the IP editor acknowledging a problem with their editing and recent edits try to provide a source, although the formatting isn't ideal. Zad68 13:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• The IP has commented that they won't edit UK demography articles any more, but that's not really acknowledging the problem, which concerns their insistence on ignoring WP:NOTSTATSBOOK at a whole range of articles. Edits such as this suggest that they also haven't taken on board messages about the need for proper referencing, as the URL linked to is just a menu page. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:58, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
• More of this today. Quite why Demographics of Algeria needs population pyramids for 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2014 is unclear. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• The IP has made lots more similar additions tonight, including reinstating that material at Demographics of Algeria after Jolly Janner reverted the additions I linked to above. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• He seems to have acquired a fetish for raw survey data used to calculate population pyramids. I suggest all of them be removed. Only the population pyramid itself would be useful in an encyclopedia. I've suggested a possible workaround to it on his talk page. In the meantime, we will have to remove all the survey data from our articles. I would still welcome a block, since we've previously advised workarounds, but the user doesn't listen. I don't hold much hope on this occasion either. Jolly Ω Janner 21:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Can someone please block this user soon? Another round of disruptive edits today after ignoring my alternative on their talk page. I've cleaned up some pages, but it takes a long time to revert them all. As they admitted, they are trying to add it to every country. Jolly Ω Janner 19:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Could an admin please take a look at this case? The IP user doesn't appear to be willing to respect consensus. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Accusations of misogyny

During two separate AfDs, Nfitz (talk · contribs) has accused editors of supporting an official Misplaced Pages notabilty guideline (WP:NFOOTY) of being misogynists. He has been asked to withdraw the personal attack twice, but is trying to claim that it is not one. and wikilawyering to claim he has not accused any individual editor.. Could this be dealt with please. Cheers, Number 57 22:08, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

This is beyond absurd. I pointed out a policy I believe to be misogynistic - that I too have been supporting in the past. I didn't make any personal attacks - especially as I included myself in the misogynistic practice we need to fix. When User:Number 57 questioned what I'd said, I clearly pointed out to him that I wasn't referring to any individual. It's a shame that some editors are far more interested in choosing to be offended and their constant wiki-lawyering and red-taping rather than improving the project. I'd like User:Number 57 to apologize for his personal attack against me. I'm sorry if User:Number 57 misinterpreted my statement. Nfitz (talk) 22:19, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

It was very clear from the original, pointed comments that the attack was aimed at certain editors. If anyone had any illusions as to the meaning, they were followed up with "I really hadn't expected anyone to support misogyny in this day and age". The attempt at backpeddalling is not going to fool anyone (I hope). As for the request for an apology... Number 57 22:24, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I most certainly did not aim the attack at certain editors. I aimed it at the entire project - myself included. To suggest otherwise is a violation of one of the fundamental pillars of Misplaced Pages - and User:Number 57 needs to apologize for violating WP:AGF. If they were not sure, they could have sought clarification - and I'd already clarified that I had not aimed my comment at any individuals before User:Number 57 came here; by ignoring my clarification that I had not targeted any individuals, has very clearly to violate WP:AGF. Could this be dealt with please? Nfitz (talk) 22:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You clearly stated in the edits that those who defend the guidelines are misogynists. I understand that in some situations we get a little hot under the collar and sometimes speak/type without thinking things through. But yeah, you did write that. Irrespective of whether or not you actually named anyone you cast a rather unpleasant aspersion on those who disagree with your take on this guideline. At the very least that is a breach of WP:AGF. I suggest that you strike the comment and make an appropriate expression of regret over the unfortunate choice of words. Let's all try to act like adults and not drag this out unnecessarily or make more of it than is needed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

No, I simply meant that anyone who ignores the WP:BIAS and mysogyny issues would be misogynists. As I'd only just raised them, no one had yet defended the issues I'd raised, there could have been no individual I was referring to. I HAD already clarified that I wasn't targetting an individual with my comments - however User:Number 57 chose to ignore that, and still take offence, where none was meant. Then User:Number 57 chose to violate WP:AGF. This is a far greater transgression in my mind, and User:Number 57 needs to apologize or face the consequences. This seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill. Nfitz (talk) 22:45, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

It's a personal attack and incivil. Nfitz, Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. It aggregates information from secondary and primary sources and attempts to give them due weight. If those sources are biased, Misplaced Pages will be as well. Similarly, if a system or institution has systemic bias in its outcomes for something like fame, Misplaced Pages will reflect that bias as well because notability is based on that systemically biased institution (e.g., Oscars). It's unfortunate, but that's how encyclopedias and tertiary sources like textbooks work. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

How can it be a personal attack, if I wasn't making a personal attack. Perhaps I worded it badly. I apologize for wording it badly. I find it quite insulting that other people are telling me what I was saying and thinking, when I clarified my comments BEFORE it came to ANI. As for Misplaced Pages being Tertiary - we are discussing policy here, not content. Our policy to not allow articles about female players unless their league is fully-professional, knowing full well there isn't the money in the sport to have fully-professional leagues WHEN WE DO ALLOW SEMI-PROFESSIONAL male leagues in standards for other male-dominated leagues (basketball, gridiron, ice hockey) is clear WP:BIAS. If we held the same standards for ANY league of ANY sport, then I'd agree with you. But we don't. Nfitz (talk) 22:51, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I have struck the offending comment, despite making it very clear to User:Number 57 that they weren't aimed at anyone personally. Re-reading them again, it was poorly worded, and I apologize for that. However, as I'd made it very clear that it wasn't personal, before they decided to bring this here, clearly violating WP:AGF and I await their apology for this. Nfitz (talk) 23:04, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• This is interesting stuff. Nfitz's apology is very welcome, but their original comments--the content if not the phrasing--is even more welcome. Even The Rambling Man agreed that there was bias in our guidelines. This is an opportunity to do something useful; if any of Nfitz's words crossed the line (and I think it was very mild) I think they speak to the frustration that is frequently felt when an underrepresented group is the subject of discussion.

  The bottomline is this, and Number 57 may not like it: "the guidelines is the guidelines" is not some sort of secret recipe that somehow eliminates bias. In fact, I am pretty damn sure that the guidelines are based on things that are inherently biased (media coverage, for instance; if I read my local paper and nothing but, cycling wouldn't be a sport and soccer was just for girls), like professional leagues and stuff like that (it's the "professional" part: of course women are underpaid, and this finds an expression in what's professional and what's not--just ask the US women's soccer team, with three World Cups and four Olympic titles, IIRC). Number 57 and others should seize this opportunity to investigate how our guidelines might be biased, and editors (including me) sometimes cannot see the beam in their own eyes. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

  • @Drmies: Football is a spectator sport, and this is what makes the players notable (with the exception of international footballers, all of whom we deem notable regardless of their professional status). A league's professional status is a direct consequence of the interest in that league, and the status of some leagues as semi-professional is a result of a lack of sufficient interest in those leagues, which is an indicator that the players in those leagues are not notable. Number 57 11:40, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
    • I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple, or that "interest" is so easily defined. I think FOOTY needs tweaking and The Rambling Man was right; the highest level in the country should trump the mere "fully professional" requirement. Your response in the Brogan Hay AfD doesn't even regard the GNG which, in my opinion and that of others, is met. (Giant Snowman disagrees, but that's another discussion.) Choosing FOOTY over GNG suggests bias, yes, if FOOTY is biased--which seems to be the opinion of a couple of participants in that AfD. But this is for a different forum than ANI, I realize that. Drmies (talk) 15:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
      • @Drmies: The reason we have avoided going down the top level route for notability is primarily because it would allow articles on thousands of non-notable male players playing in countries where football is not a professional sport (e.g. Ireland and other small countries in Europe). Number 57 15:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
        • While the manner in which this issue was raised was a little too gung-ho, I think what has been criticised is really worth looking into. The guideline for fully-professional leagues is helpful in most cases – however with gender as a factor it becomes a bit more difficult to apply as a general rule of interest/notability. Assigning the same criteria to both male and female players doesn’t take into account gender discrimination – as User:Drmies mentioned, women are in many cases are simply paid less; this doesn’t necessarily correlate with less interest for the sport. The pitfalls of amending notability criteria are clear, yet I think there may be ways to side-step potential problems. Perhaps for countries where there is notable football enthusiasm (where the men's league(s) are fully-professional) there could be criteria to allow for the top-tier women's league - This could aid in avoiding the problem User:Number 57 raised regarding non-notable male players. In any case, it would be good to start a constructive debate on this issue and discuss possible amendments. BoroFan89 (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
          • • The level of interest in the sport in terms of playing is not relevant; the level of interest in terms of it being a spectator sport (which is what makes players notable) is. What you seem to be suggesting is that Misplaced Pages adopts some form of positive discrimination. Number 57 19:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
              • I'm a bit confused by what you're saying - I never linked the level of interest with playing? I do believe that semi-pro women's football cannot be compared with semi-pro men's football - due to the reasons given above, and the notability criteria should consider this. BoroFan89 (talk) 19:36, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
• I agree that this is a good opportunity to fix WP:NFOOTY to make sure it's written in a way that does not discriminate against women in football. See Misplaced Pages:Writing about women:

Women comprise between 8.5 and 16.1 percent of editors on the English Misplaced Pages. This means that most articles are written by men, as are most of the content policies, including the notability and referencing policies. Those policies in turn determine which articles about women can be hosted, and frame many of the ways in which they are written.

LauraHale has worked hard to promote women in sport. She hasn't edited here since January, but I'm pinging her anyway in case she has thoughts about how to change the guideline. SarahSV 00:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

• For ice hockey (WP:NHOCKEY), we allow "Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant." That's the situation with Brogan Hay. As I understand it, she's playing at the highest level at which she can play in Scotland, but there is no professional level for women there. So we ought to add that caveat to WP:NFOOTY. SarahSV 02:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: My question would be how would this be applied across football in general? I presume you are not suggesting creating a bias towards women's articles by imposing a lower level of notability based solely on gender? Are you suggesting that NFOOTY be amended to state that all players in a given country's top league are presumed notable?

The problem with that would be the vast number of non-notable male footballers who would suddenly fit this criterion, not to mention non-notable female footballers, all of whom play in very minor leagues which attract very little attention.

If the desire is to see more articles on women, then I would suggest editors start on the large number of missing articles for women who have played senior international football, who pass NFOOTY as is but do currently have an article and thereby begin to solve this problem top down not bottom up. And let's not get started on the poor state of articles on women's football clubs, national teams and competitions.

If the desire is to see more articles on women in a given league, i.e. Scotland in this instance, surely GNG is the best root to follow. Again this solves the problem from a top down pov by ensuring that articles are created on the most notable female footballers first before there is any need to alter a subject specific guideline.

I am more than happy to get in a discussion on how to make football articles more inclusive, but I am adamant that any changes made must be applicable to all footballers, not simply female footballers and that the risk of a flood of hitherto non-notable players of either gender may suddenly appear.

However, I would be interested to see, particularly if a wider audience beyond the usual WP:FOOTY editors can be engaged, if a consensus can be reached that players from a country's top division are deemed notable regardless of gender. That somewhat blunt approach seems to me to be the only way to resolve this issue in a way that provides clarity on notability to even the most inexperienced of editors and allows the inclusion of more articles on female footballers without creating a positive bias. Fenix down (talk) 07:43, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi Fenix, I'm not sure what you mean by applying any new suggestion across football in general. My suggestion is that WP:NFOOTY follow WP:NHOCKEY, and add a clause that says something like:

"Played one or more games in an amateur league that is the highest level of competition available because of the lack of a professional league."

Alternatively, NFOOTY could follow WP:NRU (for Rugby Union), which cites women, and say something like:

"Or has played one or more games at the highest level of competition available in women's football in her country."

SarahSV 21:23, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I see other sections on that page cite women; e.g. WP:NBASKETBALL (though the Women's National Basketball Association is professional); WP:NBOX (mentions women and amateur boxers); and WP:NCYCLING. It should be easy enough to add a sentence to NFOOTY that accommodates what happens in the women's game. SarahSV 00:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: Firstly, I think it should be pointed out that we do not allow male players articles in cases where the top divisions in their countries are semi-pro or amateur and dozens of articles on such players are deleted every year without any such uproar. Secondly, what needs considering here is what makes footballers notable. Our guidelines give two methods for footballers to gain assumed notability; the first is common to most sports, i.e. representing their country (playing international football). The second is related to football's status as a spectator sport – and this is something that not all sports get, as if there is not much interest in many sport from a spectator point of view, this in turn means the players are not deemed notable. However, obviously not all footballers are notable, as not all footballers play in leagues where there is sufficient spectator interest (I myself have played in a league where we used to get 10-20 people watching our games). So, we have to determine which leagues do make their players notable by virtue of playing in them. The best indicator of whether there is interest in a league in terms of it being a spectator sport is professional status; if a league cannot attract sufficient crowds or sponsorship, then this suggests there is not that much interest in it, and subsequently, that the players are not notable. Being a top division does not automatically make a league's players notable if there is little interest in that league in the country in question, and this rule is applied equally to both men's and women's football. If we had separate rules for men's and women's football, this would effectively be positive discrimination, which I would hope we all agree that this is not what Misplaced Pages is for.

Also, and I'm sure this was not your intention, citing the rugby union example is not really a good idea because I would say it is actually quite biased against women. WP:NRU allows an article on any male player to play in the world cup, but a female player has to be in a team that reaches the semi finals to qualify. Number 57 14:43, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• I have been involved with Nfitz over AfD discussions on football-related articles, especially on players from Myanmar, and we were frustrated that though we knew that many of these players were playing in their country's top league, due to the lack of reliable sources (owing to simply the lack of documented media coverage of football events in Myanmar. Just google..) we were unable to prove their notability as per NFOOTY, which resulted in the deletion of some of the articles.

Now, to my point: I think that Nfitz made an error in his original statements, which were the original subject of this discussion; what Nfitz essentially said in his original comments (which were linked by Number 57 and I'm not going to re-quote them) is basically: "If you support the policy, you are a misogynist, if you do not support the policy, you are not a misogynist". This is clearly a false dichotomy as effectively, it means that if I happen to support the policy, that makes me invariably a misogynist, and you can only be one or the other. That's not true of course, as just because I support the policy, it doesn't automatically make me a misogynist.

I assume that because of this error, that Nfitz is seen by extension to be calling people misogynists if they happened to support the policy, but here's the thing: he is not calling anyone misogynists in particular; by Nfitz making his statement verbatim, there is an element of if - "If you support, you will be...; if you do not support, you will be...". On that note, I do not believe that Nfitz has not made any personal attack on any particular individual or groups of individuals. Granted that his comments were insensitive and logically incorrect in the sense that he was trying to make others invariably make one choice over the other (false dichotomy), but other than these, I don't see any other wrong in his comments.

I'm not sure if it would help this discussion, but I'll state it anyway as a reminder to all of us, especially since Nfitz rightly said that we should be concerned with improving Misplaced Pages: Misplaced Pages is not censored. Oh and as a side point, I doubt Nfitz violated WP:NPOV, considering he was highlighting a fundamental flaw in policy, one which unfortunately has a gender element to it. Just stating it too, if it pops up in this discussion. Optakeover 18:47, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

• Also, as yet another side point, I don't think Number 57 should be required to apologise either; to me this entire discussion has been a whole big misunderstanding of both sides since the beginning. I also want to praise Drmies for coming into this discussion with a voice of reason that spanned both sides. Optakeover 19:15, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: I wouldn't go so far as to say misogyny. But there definitely seems to be a double standard against women going on in this case study, unfortunately. That represents our Misplaced Pages community quite poorly to our readers. — Cirt (talk) 19:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
• A point on the substantive issue of non-professional top national leagues. I have not been completely happy with this, in a number of cases players who have played for a large country in major sports, in a major international competition, have had their articles deleted. In these cases, if GNG is not met, a redirect to a team page, with sections on each player, would be worthwhile. There are cases where player redirects have been deleted because the player no longer plays for the team. What we have is a combination of systemic bias and recentism. Clearly there is a basis for saying that professional leagues are more notable, that players representing larger (and hence better funded) nations are likley to be more notable, and that more recent players, especially current players are going to be easier to reference.

But that doesn't mean we should abnegate all coverage, bearing in mind the difficulty of finding sources, we should build what significant coverage we can using reliable sources to populate team pages, and where necessary <sport> in <country> pages.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC).

• Still waiting for an apology from User:Number 57 for their clear violation of WP:AGF. Nfitz (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I honestly don't get what you mean by violation of AGF. If you could quote an example that is not already in this ANI discussion, I would love to see it. Otherwise, seriously there is no need for an apology to you or to Number 57. As per the second part of my original reply above, this discussion was clearly the result of bad misunderstanding, and (fairly) hot heads on both sides. He thought you were calling others misogynist, and you have acknowledged that you could have worded it better. It was clearly a misunderstanding/miscommunication. Can our feelings not be so easily crushed by others? I think we should just dust ourselves off and move on from this ANI discussion that has clearly been a few days in and doesn't seem to be heading anywhere. What should really be done is to focus on the issues with WP:GNG, WP:NFOOTY, and/or other article-related policies or guidelines, as highlighted by yourself (Nfitz) and other users. Optakeover 17:13, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps a solution to the WP:NFOOTY issue would be to say that all players (male or female) from the top level league in a country are notable, unless it is a micro-nation (say less than 500,000 inhabitants*). This then avoids the what about Faroe Islands, etc. problem. Most good standard players from those countries will meet NFOOTY anyway by playing for the national team, which is relatively easier anyway. *I realise this is arbitrary, but I think it would be possible to reach a consensus on what defines a micro-nation. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I think the main problem here is the claim that it's misogynist of Misplaced Pages to reflect that football is a male-dominated sport. It's the world that is misogynist, not Misplaced Pages. Nevertheless, if we decide to make all top level league players notable it should count for all leagues that are a member of any of the six football confederations. I think the current "professional league" level is better, though. --OpenFuture (talk) 13:48, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Global IP rangeblock

I just got caught in a global IP rangeblock made by @Masti: over on Meta. The message I got telling me about this (when trying to rollback anti-Semitic vandalism on the RefDesk) and then when I tried to post an unblock request on my talkpage was "Permission error

Jump to: navigation, search

You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:

Your IP address is in a range which has been blocked on all wikis.

The block was made by Masti (meta.wikimedia.org). The reason given is Cross-wiki vandalism: + leaky colo.

Start of block: 19:05, 6 April 2016
Expiration of block: 19:05, 6 October 2016

You can contact Masti to discuss the block. You cannot use the "Email this user" feature unless a valid email address is specified in your account preferences and you have not been blocked from using it. Your current IP address is 188.29.164.122, and the blocked range is 188.29.164.0/23. Please include all above details in any queries you make."

Now, firstly it is a bit rich to leave established editors with no way to request an unblock on their home wiki, secondly it is even richer to block established users with no effort to communicate with them directly, and thirdly, the IP range is for mobile services from 3, one of the major UK mobile providers, so is likely to affect many good-faith users. DuncanHill (talk) 00:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• Without commenting on the merits of the block or its validity, a /23 block only covers 512 IP addresses, and is not likely to affect many people. It may be that you just got unlucky with this one. /23 is very targeted, and should not affect most (or even many) of that network's mobile providers. That does not say that the block is justified, or that you don't have a complaint, but rather that the portion of your complaint that it affects an entire ISP, or even that it affects a large number of addresses, isn't true. ---Jayron32 01:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say it affected an entire ISP, or a large number of addresses (I wouldn't pretend to have the faintest idea how many addresses it did affect). I did say it's likely to affect a large number of people, as every time someone comes online they are likely to have a different address, and so, over 6 months it is likely to affect many. Even if it could be guaranteed to "only" affect 512 people, to leave them without any on-wiki way of appealing is unacceptable. DuncanHill (talk) 01:55, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Dropped a notification on Masti's TP for you. A ping is not considered sufficient notification due to the notorious way pings can fail. Blackmane (talk) 03:10, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I change the block to unregistered users only. So You should be able to edit now. Sorry for the problems @DuncanHill: Masti (talk) 09:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I am now global IP block exempt too. I had no idea that pings were notoriously unreliable! DuncanHill (talk) 14:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

However both the big red text at the top of the page and orange box you see when you edit do say "must notify them on their user talk page" so the reasons are largely moot unless it's a discussion over the reasons. Perhaps the point of confusion is the ""discussion about an editor" bit, but that's normally taken to mean if you discussion includes commentary on the editor, they should be notified. Nil Einne (talk) 17:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

And the notices have been there so long that they merge into the background. I also rather think they did not always specify talkpage. Masti was well aware that I was unhappy with the situation as I had emailed him via Meta, mentioning that this was my home wiki. DuncanHill (talk) 19:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't know what it's said in the past, but it's been clear since pings were introduced that you have to notify editors via their talk page not via other methods like pings. This is a standard expected part of starting ANI threads and for several editors including me, it reflects negatively on any editor who fail to do so. (Not just because of the failure to do the minimum required by the big notice, but because a lot of the time when I see an editor hasn't notified, they're a new editor with a groundless complaint.) The only few exceptions are generally when the editor is blocked or banned or when there's an iban or request to stay away (but in that case it should be mentioned when starting the thread) and with IPs that change so much that it pointless (although it's normally wise to at least attempt to do so in thos case). Nil Einne (talk) 18:12, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

But they have to actually try to edit while using the IP, so in reality it's not particularly likely to affect that many registered editors unless the IP range happens to be used by a some large company (since it's a mobile IP not very likely) or something (I wonder why such a small range was blocked and whether there's something to do with the assignment policy which means people only tend to get a small number in which case it could be certain editors would have gotten it a lot or it's very rare). While there are quite a few anonymous contributions from that range to en.wikipedia, non registered editors always run the risk they will be blocked if others misuse their IPs and a /23 isn't considered sufficiently small that it may be justified if there are problems. I see some mention of leaky colo which I presume means leaky colocation, so the number may be slightly higher but then again perhaps this leak colo falls in to the open proxy arena (like a webhost) so they aren't allow to edit from that anyway. (Blocking a whole countries proxyy tends to be the more controversial thing.) Note that ultimately if you have problems editing from an IP and that IP was blocked for good reason, you should be complaining to your ISP for failing to have decent abuse policies or failing to enforce them as you're I presume paying your ISP for service which they aren't able to provide. Nil Einne (talk) 17:08, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I was trying to edit from an account, not as an IP. Apparently registered users also always run the risk that they will be blocked for the deeds of others and with no on-wiki appeal. DuncanHill (talk) 19:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• If I might interject, what are we hoping to accomplish here? Masti has converted the global block to anon only in response to DuncanHill's request. DH was granted global IPBE so this won't occur again. Furthermore, I removed the local block in less than 15 minutes from DH's email to me. (~00:29 UTC April 7) It sounds to me that things have been handled correctly and promptly. DH, if you are dissatisfied with Masti's block, that's an issue that you will have to raise on meta. Mike V • Talk 22:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I was dissatisfied with the impossibility of appealing a block made without notification! Now, I do have email enabled, so after the initial shock and confusion I was able to contact some likely looking admins, but anyone who does not is left with no method whatsoever of seeking any kind of help. And Mike, I never asked you to undermine Masti's block by removing it locally, I asked you to restore my IPBE here on en-wiki which you had earlier removed on en-wiki without telling me, and make it apply to all wikis so at the very least I could ask for help in a more conducive environment. DuncanHill (talk) 10:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC) and edited DuncanHill (talk) 11:10, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I guess my comment wasn't as clear as I thought. I never meant you were editing without an account. What I said is that when using an IP range that has been misused by others, you always run the risk you're going to encounter problems, both on wikipedia and elsewhere because of this misuse. If this causes problems for you, it is indeed an issue between you and your ISP, because you are (unless it's a free service in which case it's probably tough luck) paying them for a service and they are failing to provide it because they are assigning you IPs and not properly controlling misuse of those IPs by their other customers. Whether you are using an account or not, you still have an IP, that's the way the internet works. Frankly, the circumstances allowed here on wikipedia and wikimedia projects in general are very generous. AFAIK it's basically unheard of for IP or ranges to be blocked from accessing wikipedia. IP or ranges are only ever blocked from editing and usually with great attempts made to ensure it's affecting as few people as possible and the block is needed. And even there, multiple avenues of appeals are usually provided and frequently great attempts will be made to assist people who weren't the primary targets of the blocks to continue editing. With a lot of other stuff, you're often SOL often with little avenue of appeal even if you weren't the target of the block or the block wasn't even needed or is excessively broad. And that's just stuff like forums, things like The Spamhaus Project tend to be even more onerous. I'm not saying we shouldn't be so generous, but rather you have to consider how the internet works. It does sound like a hardblock wasn't needed here, so there's a valid point of complaint there, but ultimately the primary fault lies with those misusing your ISP and next your ISP. Nil Einne (talk) 18:12, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Removing a global block locally wasn't undermining Masti's actions. If there's a global block in place that does not have a positive benefit to en.wiki, any administrator can adjust it. In my emails to you I informed you that only stewards can apply a global IPBE and provided you avenues to request one. (Remember, IPBE on en.wiki only applies to local en.wiki hard blocks.) The reason you weren't directly contacted about the block is because your IP address was blocked, not your account. The blocking steward was not aware that you were on the range. When a user is blocked, directly or editing on a hard blocked range, he or she can still edit his or her talk page unless talk page access is revoked. Looking at the block log shows that was not the case, so you should have been able to place an unblock request on meta. Mike V • Talk 16:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• Small comment to DuncanHill and Blackmane before this gets closed: "I had no idea that pings were notoriously unreliable!". They are reliable. If they are not working, you are doing something wrong, like not typing four tildes in the same post as your ping. See WP:PING. The reason Talk-page notification is necessary is that that makes it official and firmly recorded (for the user and for others) and highly visible (not ignorable). Plus, some people don't read notifications closely or immediately or read all of them or may only skim their notifications; some people get dozens of pings a day; there is also no way of fully knowing how urgent or important a ping is unless one actually visits the page in question; some people don't format pings correctly (misspell username, don't type four tildes, etc.); and there is also a very remote possibility that a few people may have mention-notifications turned off (although I've never heard of anyone who does). -- Softlavender (talk) 07:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• User talk:Materialscientist says "I turned off most notifications in my preferences, and therefore can't see pings, sorry." This may be related to the second userbox on their user page, which says "This user believes that the meaning of life is to live a happy life." MPS1992 (talk) 12:48, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

As Softlavender says, one needs to remember to do the pings plus sigs together. Going back and adding in your sig or ping after the fact causes the ping to fail. If one makes a post but forgets to ping, make a new post. Best policy when using pings is to use the Show Preview to double check. Blackmane (talk) 12:15, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• The range block seems to be because of disruptive editing on the Polish Misplaced Pages by an editor now in the UK. The same IP addresses don't have edits to other wikis and the articles don't exist in other languages. A global block seems unnecessary. Talk page access shouldn't be revoked; I assume this is a bug, but has it been reported? Can editors affected by these blocks place unblock requests on meta? How would this work for a user with no account there? Peter James (talk) 21:40, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

AFAIK if you have an account on en you have an account on meta due to WP:SUL and since I think finalisation has finally happened, I don't think it's possible to not have an account on meta. (You could have stuff like talk page access revoked there I assume.)

Also is there a reason to think this is only because of the stuff on the Polish wikipedia? I looked in to this a few days ago and admit I didn't find anything else. There was some weird stuff at Pilates, Talk:Pilates and User talk:Alexbrn but I'm not totally sure it's vandalism and so since it didn't look to be the same editor it didn't seem to me it would justify a global block.

But my ability to check other wiki contribs was hampered by the fact there isn't (AFAIK) any easy tool to look at cross-wiki range contributions. I only looked at the contribs of the blocked range to a few projects and looked for comments to the blocking steward on meta, Pl and here. As such I didn't comment as I suspected there could easily be something I was missing.

Today when writing this it occured to me to check the cross wiki contribs of those three or four IPs who'd recently been editing here and on pl. This made me realise simple.wikipedia was one project I hadn't looked and there did seem to be some dodgy looking stuff there. And sure enough the IP range appears to be a regular vandal at simple.wikipedia.

Whether or not this is enough to justify a global block, I can't say (particularly since I still don't quite know what the leaky colo is about). But as said, even before I found the simple stuff I didn't see any reason to think it was solely because of the Polish stuff. If there is a way to do cross wiki range contrib check I presume you would have found the simple stuff so I do find it quite mystifying why you think it's only because of the Polish stuff.

Nil Einne (talk) 17:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Block reviews

I blocked Threegoodmonkeys (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as WP:NOTHERE, two edits only, both blatant trolling, and if this is not a sockpuppet then I am a threegoodmonkeys' uncle.

I also blocked Hendersonmj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for more complex treasons, which should nonetheless be readily obvious from a quick review of his contributions. I have been watching Energy Catalyzer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for some time, it is a device claimed by its inventor (a convicted fraudster) to generate substantial amounts of essentially free energy; there is a crossover with cold fusion and a long history of promotion of claims which are generally reckoned by the reality based community to have no merit. Given I'd have thought this wasn't in the least controversial as a block-and-revert, but one editor has demanded that I recant so I bring it here for review. Guy (Help!) 21:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Good blocks both. Miniapolis 22:58, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Without even giving my thoughts regarding their possible sock puppet connections here, I will say that both of these blocks are completely justified, were made with good judgment and cause, as were well within Misplaced Pages's blocking policy. I agree that they are suspicious per this edit. Not only a day after Hendersonmj was blocked, Threegoodmonkeys was created. Just 11 minutes later, the edit above was made (which was only the user's second edit). Is it a "smoking bullet", such as having similar words, habits, articles, MO, etc? No. But it does yield reasonable suspicion? Yes. ~Oshwah~ 01:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

We block people for WP:TREASON now? Heh, all hail His Royal Majesty Jimbo the First, Ruler over the English Misplaced Pages, Emperor over all language colonies, projects, and metas and Lord of Wikia.--v/r - TP 03:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Don't be silly. For treason, we sue them in a court of law in Trenton, New Jersey. Guy (Help!) 08:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Only petty treason you know! _Fortuna 07:20, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• Violates BLOCKNO - What JzG forgot to mention is that he is not only watching Energy Catalyzer, but also editing it, edit warring on it, and discussing it on the talk page from a strong POV . It was only after the block that the blocked user outed themselves as a sockpuppet. WP:INVOLVED and WP:BLOCK are pretty clear that admins don't get to take control of content of an article that they have decided is not "reality based" and block users who get in their way. I would expect that admins doing this repeatedly might find themselves desysoped at some point. I would also point out that while comments about Rossi's past criminality are not WP:BLP violations, speculation that he is still committing crimes blatantly violates WP:BLPCRIME.- MrX 11:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Yep; two edits there in the last six months... _Fortuna 11:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

So involvement "expires" after 6 months now? I must have missed that memo. Pretty obvious that Guy is involved here - while these may have been good blocks, he should not have made them himself. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I am "involved" in preventing long-term abuse of Misplaced Pages by a convicted fraudster. Guy (Help!) 17:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

There's no need to tie an admin's hands because they're familiar with a topic. It's unnecessary bureaucracy to have to call in another admin for such obvious cases. clpo13_(talk) 17:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Policy and practice say otherwise.- MrX 20:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:IAR is also policy, you know, though I see below you don't put much stock in it. clpo13_(talk) 21:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

MrX - I'm honestly a bit torn here. First of all, I will acknowledge your response, your concerns, and the diffs that you provided. While the diffs do show JzG's involvement with the article, they were made back in August and September 2015. It also appears that any opposition to Hendersonmj's edits would be content and source-related (I'm going to read through each of Hendersonmj's changes again). Do edits made six months ago still consider a user involved? My thought is that it depends on the situation. My first gut reaction when it comes to this situation is no, but I'll admit that I'm not overly familiar with the "history" of this policy and what has been determined in the past. However, if I were in JzG's shoes, I probably would have played it safe and had someone else do the blocking (because you never know). ;-) ~Oshwah~ 17:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than for other admins to take an interest in this article. It's been a problem for a looooong time and it's heating up (no pun intended) because Rossi is now suing an investor who considers he failed to prove his claims. We are likely to see a fair bit of SPA action there in coming months. Guy (Help!) 19:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not an emergency. If the article is subjected to problem editing, someone will report it, and someone else (an involved admin) will take care of it. This is how it's supposed to work, and by the way, it tends to work really well.- MrX 20:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

@Oshwah:. The reason JzG is involved and should not be blocking people he's in content disputes with and protecting the article for a year, is not only because he's edited the article, but also because he has an expressed bias about the subject, and apparently a loathing of its inventor. Admins don't get to skate around policy or WP:BLP policy just because they really really feel strongly about a subject.- MrX 20:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

MrX - I completely understand what constitutes being "involved" as an Administrator, and I agree that he would have been seen as "involved" if he had made those edits you listed a week ago, or maybe even a month ago and then performed the block on Hendersonmj today - especially if it would have gained him an upper hand in a dispute, argument, or with contributing or editing the article. However, it's been six months since he's last contributed to the article whatsoever (assuming the diffs listed were the latest edits that he made to the article/talk page). Is he currently in any content disputes with anyone involving the Energy Catalyzer article and at this very time? Is there something that can show that his blocks were done in order to gain an upper hand in a dispute that is currently occurring? Again, I admit that I haven't observed enough discussions to where I fully gauge how long or when an Administrator would cease becoming "involved" with an article, but my first reaction here is to ask these questions and then base my judgment off of these answers. ~Oshwah~ 20:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• JzG was completely upfront about his minor involvement (note the lowercase) in this article and I don't see a case here that the blocks were bad ones in any other respect. We have WP:IAR for this very reason, to ignore the strictest interpretation of policy subclauses in order to do something that obviously benefits the encyclopedia. Let's remember we have 2-300 active admins and 5 million articles. We can't rely on getting someone else to do it in every case. Gamaliel (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

  Interesting. Does it go without saying that you also believe that IAR applies to the BLP policy that people constantly beat their chests about? - MrX 20:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

  The whole point of IAR is to employ common sense in specific unforeseen cases that don't fit into strict policy boxes. So I can't say what would be an appropriate case until I see it, otherwise we'd just put that into the policy. If there's a BLP issue here, please let us know what it might be. Gamaliel (talk) 20:53, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

  Thanks, I think I already understand the principle and practicality of IAR. Regarding BLP, evidently you didn't trouble yourself to read any of the diffs that I already provide upthread, such as:

• "Yes, he has a patent on a water heater. No doubt this will help him raise more capital, using bait-and-switch."
• "I think it is very useful that you have publicly associated yourself with Radin, Weiler, Sheldrake and sundry other cranks"
• "Getting people to throw money down the drain is Rossi's business model, the fact that it happened again does not affect the unproven status of the device or Rossi's history of fraud and unsubstantiated claims."

I look forward to hearing about how these comments improve the encyclopedia and how they are not indicative of an inappropriate bias for anyone using admin tools anywhere near this article.- MrX 21:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• You're right, I apologize for forgetting that part of the discussion. I don't want to encourage such comments but I don't see anything particularly problematic about them, sorry. According to our article on Rossi, he was responsible for a series of frauds, including a notorious cold fusion fraud. The encyclopedia should not be used to lambaste criminals but we can point out that a person who committed fraud is a person who committed fraud if it is relevant to the discussion. Gamaliel (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Right. Rossi is a convicted fraudster, that is a matter of established fact. It is also an established fact that he has used several successive announcements of funding to imply legitimacy. I encourage any admins to look through the talk page history - there are two kinds of people promoting the e-cat, cold fusionists and Rossi believers. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion is relevant, as is the pseudoscience case. I draw a distinction between newbies appearing at the talk page to tell us we're completely wrong and Rossi's device will save the world, and people who appear and pitch right in to editing content, repeating prior rejected edits, and showing knowledge of Misplaced Pages jargon. I don't think that is unreasonable. Guy (Help!) 09:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

There's a big difference between saying "Rossi was convicted of fraud" (past tense; factual; sourced) and "Rossi is perpetrating a fraud" (present tense; speculation; unsourced). If I posted on talk:Dennis Hastert something like "Dennis Hastert is probably molesting boys right now", I would rightfully be admonished, if not blocked. If I did it repeatedly, I would be blocked. This type of conduct from an admin is shameful and falls short of the high standard of conduct that's expected of admins (or so I thought).- MrX 22:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

None of the three quotes you list states that Rossi is committing fraud, only that he has a history of fraud and unsubstantiated claims, which is - as you yourself note - a matter of simple fact. I have no particular interest in this other than as an extension of the cold fusion article with its long history of advocacy editing by cold fusion believers. If anything my POV should be the opposite to what you imply, as my best friend actually worked on Fleischmann's original cold fusion experiments, but I don't really have a POV other than "prove it" and that means not taking Rossi's word at face value. It would be like taking Kevin Trudeau's word on a claim about the HCG diet. We simply don't take the word of people with a legally established history of dishonesty, especially in the area where that dishonesty was identified (in Rossi's case free energy). And we don't sit idly by while "brand new editors" pile in to add previously rejected promotional content. Guy (Help!) 10:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

"Getting people to throw money down the drain is Rossi's business model, the fact that it happened again does not affect the unproven status of the device or Rossi's history of fraud and unsubstantiated claims." I don't see how a reasonable person in the reality-based community, with basic grade school reading comprehension skills could see that as anything other than strongly implying that Rossi is committing fraud. To put it even more simply, "It happened again (Getting people to throw money down the drain)" and "Getting people to throw money down the drain is Rossi's business model" are unsourced smears and plainly not allowed by WP:BLPTALK and WP:BLPCRIME.- MrX 15:20, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• These were both good blocks. The second would not have been if it hadn't been promptly brought here for review. —Cryptic 20:42, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, and I thank MrX for prompting me to do so, I should have done this without a reminder and I will bear that in mind going forward. Guy (Help!) 09:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

JzG's behavior has fallen short of the standard's expected of both editor and adminstrator; this rollback style edit is not minor and does not meet the criteria for use at Misplaced Pages:Rollback#When_to_use_rollback. His block of Hendersonmj, with no prior discussion on article or user talk, is both hasty and involved. The fact the Cold Fusion has been crap since Fleischmann and Pons conned politicians and the media in 1989 is not a valid reason to violate policy; Misplaced Pages standard is reliable sources, not truth (see, for example, Chemtrails and numerous articles on inexplicably notable people -- names omitted per BLP but think so-called "reality TV" ...).. WP:IAR is properly understood as not letting the technical wording of policies interfere doing the commonsense thing, not an excuse to skip necessary steps in dispute resolution. WP:AGF and all that, and no, no one is suggesting wiki suicide, it's really just not that important an article. The notion that admins are hard to find is not supported by evidence; a recent AN request had a wait time of only 21 minutes; there was nothing so urgent requiring action on Energy Catalyzer in an accelerated time frame. I'd like to see a reversal of the Henderonmj block and a commitment from JzG to avoid misuse of rollback in the future. NE Ent 23:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I always enjoy your idiosyncratic interpretations of policy. I rolled the edit back because it was blatantly promotional. Remember the context: a "free energy" cold fusion device that is being promoted by a convicted fraudster. Dispute resolution is fine for genuinely new accounts (cf. recent AE against Conzar, a sincere but misguided newbie). This looks like a sockpuppet (or a meatpuppet, given the known and documented off-wiki collaboration of cold fusionists).

With the exception of the lawsuit, which was under discussion on Talk, the material added was largely material that has been the subject of extensive prior debate, and rejected as synthesis. There is a patent, therefore it works! Or not, since British Rail had a patent for a flying saucer powered by nuclear explosions.

If any admin wants to replace the block with a DS notice and warning then that's fine. Or if the consensus of uninvolved admins is that I was wrong, then I will unblock and apologise. I have no problem with people asking me to post a block for review, I have no problem with accepting the results of any independent review (we can of course ignore the voices of the usual griefers). Guy (Help!) 07:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

As usual, NE Ent is encouraging trouble for the encyclopedia with completely unrealistic views about what others should do. Anyone wanting to offer advice about how to prevent fringe pushers subverting articles should spend a few months helping stem the never-ending inflow first. Johnuniq (talk) 12:24, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Encouraging trouble by pointing out that an admin is using admin tools (rollback, protection, and blocking) to control content? Thank you NE Ent! The way to prevent articles from being subverted with fringe pushing is the same way you prevent bad content in any any topic area. If you want to see a never-ending inflow of bad content, try new page patrol. I assure you, fringe topics are not our biggest wiki-emergency, by far. - MrX 22:38, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

For example, a contentious topic Homophobia has been kept NPOV without any involved blocks by simply watching and editing , and reverting NPOV inclusions with appropriate edit summary . While tiresome and tedious, it's not actually that hard to edit per policy. NE Ent 23:11, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

That is a poor comparison. Homophobia is not a commercial product being promoted by a convicted fraudster, and bigots typically get short shrift on Misplaced Pages. Guy (Help!) 15:37, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• both blocks were good. i should note that i was one of the targets of threemonkey's monkeying around. also kudos to Guy for this. Jytdog (talk) 18:18, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• I have read through all of the difference posts and the comments here. It seems to me that JzG ought to have asked another administrator to step in. There are many admins who would have been able to intervene without the appearance of impropriety. I seem to recall the Arbitration Committee requiring that in multiple rulings of theirs. I don't see any outright problems with what JzG did but HOW he went about it. New England Cop (talk) 21:44, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
  • That sounds easy, but people who have tried it know that it often does not work. Admins are busy and an uninvolved admin would need at least half an hour to understand the background before they were in a position to think about the particular edits being reported. The topic in question is a magic box that produces an inexhaustible stream of very low cost energy, and people have invested large amounts in the company that is developing the device. Along with the free energy comes an inexhaustible supply of editors keen to add factoids to promote the device. Please review the archived talk page discussions and join in if you would like to help. Johnuniq (talk) 22:40, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Please post a diff of an administrator requesting assistance on either AN or ANI and not getting a timely response from another administrator. NE Ent 23:11, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
      • JzG has been an admin for a very long time and has been involved in enough controversy that he clearly knows the Arbitration Committee requires excusing oneself and calling in an uninvolved administrator when there is even the appearance of impropriety. He chose to ignore this and all in all it's a very, very minor violation of the rules of conduct governing administrators. I'd simply file it away and keep it in mind when and if JzG is ever called to the carpet to explain the many controversies he has been involved in. I propose archiving this thread but not forgetting it. New England Cop (talk) 00:42, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

What I should have done was post it for review unprompted. That owuld have stopped the disruption and maintained transparency. I acknowledge fault here, and have thanked MrX for reminding me that this is what I should have done. Guy (Help!) 10:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• First block is obviously fine under the traditional interpretation of wp:involved, which is to not worry about it much when it comes to "duh" cases like that one. I didn't bother looking at the second block but it sounds ok too based on other people's comments, and that no one has called for overturning it. Bringing it here for review when someone asked for that sufficed, imho. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 05:43, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Incivility and disruptive behavior by Lugnuts

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I was checking new pages using AWB and I made a minor change in one of the articles. To my surprise, the reported user reverted my minor edit without saying why. It was a simple issue but I had the question why my revert were reverted. So I started a talk page discussion and asked him explain the reasoning behind his revert. He referred to the rules regarding "how to use AWB". However, it was surprising for me to see a minor change (that makes zero change to the appearance of the article and only removes some excess spacing) reverted. Anyway, in response he made ad hominem comments and spoke in a rough manner by saying "you think every one else is wrong", " you're having trouble understanding" and "Pathetic".

I also removed an external link of the article per WP:ELNO but he again reverted me. When I explained the points on the talk page, he again kept on accusing me and making uncivil comments. I kindly asked him to be polite on his talk page. But he removed my comment (no problem, that was his own talk page) and also removed all of the exchanged comments from the article talk page and reverted me again when I restored the material and called me a troll in his edit summaries.

His block log shows that, among other issues, he had been blocked twice for "Personal attacks or harassment" by FreeRangeFrog and Stephan Schulz and was unblocked by Floquenbeam after his apology provided that he "tone it down" (which he fails to do now!). I think he has competence issues. Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 07:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Sure sounds like Lugnuts. Don't expect anyone to do anything about it. He's learned to game ANI too well. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

About once per year he gets really crazy and then he is blocked, but this year he is probably not yet at this point.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

It appears he/she is aware of this thread. SQL 09:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• @Mhhossein: Please do not use automated tools in a manner that irritates other editors. By all means fiddle around with whitespace if you like, but if you are just doing drive-by edits like that and are reverted, it is best to ignore the article. There are plenty of other pages where you can adjust whitespace, and there is no need to argue about it. At any rate, going to ANI over such an argument is not productive. You may be irritated that your concerns were not addressed in a manner that satisfies you, but it seems fair to assume that the other party feels the same way. Just walk away, find another article, and don't seize on other trivia like removing an external link. How do you think that comes across? Remember that this is a collaborative community. Johnuniq (talk) 10:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Johnuniq: I think I were not able to focus on the main issue regarding the reported user. His competence issues are much more irritating. As I said he made attack and uncivil comments. He also removed the contents of the article talk page and reverted me when I restored them. He should not have done that, should he? The one who can't handle such a simple issue and makes such comments, can't contribute in more challenging discussions. Mhhossein (talk) 10:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

By the way, I did not "seize on other trivia like removing an external link". I did not remove the link furthermore. Mhhossein (talk) 10:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Mhhossein, aside from I agree the Iran comment way out of line, Lugnuts has acted within policy in all of this, so you'd best move on and drop it. Even however you admitted that the removal of the EL was not necessary, and please don't insult our intelligence by claiming that removal wasn't seizing on other trivia. Move on; lay off the article and hopefully off of AWB; withdraw this ANI filing before it boomerangs on you. This is an extremely silly content dispute with a couple of inopportune words added in. Softlavender (talk) 10:51, 9 April 2016 (UTC): edited 12:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

This is absolutely not a content dispute. Based on what you said, Lugnuts has acted within policy by 1) insisting on blanking the talk page of the article, 2) saying "Carry on with whatever the f**k it is you do." 3) making ad hominem comments. 4) making similar uncivil comments. Are you serious? What you simply called a silly content dispute accompanied by "couple of inopportune words" is similar to what made him blocked twice before. He is not able to just tone it down! Forget about the content, the behavioral issues are being discussed here. Mhhossein (talk) 11:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I missed the fact that he blanked the article talk page. (I've re-reverted it now.) Yes, this does not look good. It looks like Lugnuts is having a meltdown and is gunning for a block. Softlavender (talk) 12:16, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Having read the argument on the article talk page, the content does appear more appropriate for a user talk page. There's no real discussion about improving the specific article in question, it's more two editors finding fault in each other's actions and Mhhossein's use of AWB.--Jezebel's Ponyo 15:24, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: There's an ongoing discussion on my talkpage regarding this issue. Mhhossein (talk) 14:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment this is all part of his never ending angry crusade to engage in coitus with the AWB tool. Legacypac (talk) 15:36, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Lugnuts may have a point when it comes to AWB edits that don't change the rendering of a page. However, he should be able to defend his reverts and respond to criticism without flying off the handle. The fact that he apparently hasn't learned his lesson from past blocks is concerning. clpo13_(talk) 17:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Is there logic in reverting an edit you think is pointless? Is that not even more pointless and hypocritical? Legacypac (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

No, it seems Lugnuts is reverting to prove some point about AWB, which is why it's even more important for him to be civil when someone asks him about those reverts. The original edits may be unnecessary, but I agree that reverting is likewise unnecessary. clpo13_(talk) 18:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

@Clpo13 and Legacypac: I was astonished to see such a minor change reverted! Mhhossein (talk) 05:07, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• The initial edit by Mhhossein sure was mostly useless and it better be avoided, more so if done in some automated way. But generalising about "AWB users" and "Iranian people" and then using that to attack another user should not be taken lightly. We all do and say silly things once in a while (I do...) and that should not be cause for much trouble, but if it is frequent, it needs more than a warning. Apparently it is the case with Lugnuts, according to some of the previous comments and to the fact that the name sounded familiar from this venues. - Nabla (talk) 19:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• I blanked that talk page before I saw that there was discussion over it; Ponyo, as usual, is right--in my opinion. It's not related to article improvement--it couldn't be, since the edit was inconsequential, and the revert therefore warranted. Mhhossein, sorry, but that's the fact. I don't think Lugnuts is cruisin' for anything though, and Lugnuts you know I love you like my new favorite non-stick skillet, but that Iran remark was just totally asinine and you really should apologize for it. As for the rest: my dear Mhhossein, I think Lugnuts's explanation should have sufficed the first time around. Also, it's rough to be reverted, believe me, I know. Let's move on. Drmies (talk) 02:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Drmies: But as the others said and as I tried to tell him while discussing the points, his revert was something surprising and unnecessary. Anyway, @Ponyo: how do you think discussing the "keeping" or "removing" of an external link was not improving and/or at least related to the article? All in all, his incivilities, which has to be stopped, was much more irritating! Mhhossein (talk) 05:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Do you acknowledge that all this fuss arose because your original edit was reverted? And your original edit was to fiddle with whitespace in a new article (24 minutes after it had been created)? Are your views and feelings so important that all this time can be wasted because you don't like having your edits reverted, even when they are trivial? Please learn from what independent editors have said here—drop the matter and find another article to work on. This is a collaborative community and we each need to make an effort to get on with others, even if they are prickly. You may believe that the external link is a separate issue, but no one else does—it was obvious retaliation to leave your mark on the short stub and to let the other editor know that you won't take being reverted without a fight. Johnuniq (talk) 12:32, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Mhhossein, you clearly don't understand something about AWB: Never, ever make a whitespace-only edit with it. People hate that; it is extremely rude behavior. Go to the Skip tab and check General skip option "Only whitespace" so it will automatically skip saving those kind of pointless edits. Now you know, right? Prhartcom (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: No, I don't, because never filled this report for being reverted! As already said above, He's done some attacks. He's apparently done this before. I did not need to retaliate, since I never removed the link after the revert. Please assume good faith (I think you know where the AGF page is so I don't embed the wikilink) and don't make such clear judgement in future. So you endorse his attacks and generic remarks? And on "Are your views and feelings so important that all this time can be wasted because you don't like having your edits reverted, even when they are trivial", can you hear me? this is not a matter of being reverted. Other editors pointed the attacks and incivilities. Can you understand that? You are free to not waste your time here. Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 18:42, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

@Prhartcom: Thanks for tip but did you not miss some other issues? Mhhossein (talk) 18:45, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Mhhossein, I thought this was archived; you're telling me you reverted an archive just so that you could continue to argue? Fine, I'll engage with you one more time. You're referring to Lugnut's behavior, including the racist statement he made to you. Yes, that was clearly wrong, it's a blockable offense, I don't appreciate it, and you are right to be offended by it. You were very polite when opening this complaint and you assumed good faith. On all those things I agree with you. However, that doesn't change the fact that you were foolishly using a powerful tool in a naive way, bumbled into a no-win situation, and made a dumb mistake. I wish you would own up to that fact and drop this righteous indignation. You provoked this fight with your naivete, my friend. Please don't reject the wise advice of Johnuniq above. That's not a good sign. That advice was very well stated; please re-read it. If you reject it again, it indicates you have a problem admitting your own mistakes. Please don't point the finger at everyone while lacking the courage to point it at yourself when necessary. If it were up to me, I would block you for that. Instead, why don't you, right now, apologize for your naivete and just back away from this issue you caused, like everyone has been urging you to do? I promise you'll be happier for it. All the best, Prhartcom (talk) 19:28, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

@Prhartcom totally off topic and way out of line of course, but I have been giggling at your username for a while now. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 00:11, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I suppose it's not too inspired a username, is it? Ah well! I could just tell everyone it's a codename I used back when I went undercover. Prhartcom (talk) 00:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Note to closing admin: I never objected the revert of my AWB edit. I just tried to indicate it his revert was insignificant, too. I'd like the admins to address 'his attacks and generic remarks'. Tnx Mhhossein (talk) 07:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@Mhhossein the best way out of this sticky situation for you is to just "leave it alone". Its like a wound, you just wont let it scab over dude. I tried to help you out by closing it, but you reverted me. Now it was ready to be archived by Bot and you have edited it. The best advice anyone can give has already been given bro. As per Prhartcom you were naive with your use of AWB and provoked this fight. But no one is perfect, so its no big deal. There is literally ZERO reason for you to "try to prove that you were right" and "lugnuts was wrong". Just leave the thread alone and it will be archived, no one blames you much and we go on with our lives. To be frank I fail to see what you intend the remedy to be. Do you want lugnuts banned? blocked? T-ban? So in a nutshell get this page off of your watchlist and in 4 days the wound will be healed completely. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Comments aimed at discrediting the reporter rather than discussing the complaint, such as what you, Prhartcom and Johnuniq did, are really discouraged and I suggest you take a look at the comments by Drmies and others did here and on my talk page to see how neutral comments focusing on the complaint are written. Mhhossein (talk) 18:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Mhhossein: They aren't discrediting you, and what I am about to say also does not. Let me try to simplify, clarify, and reduce what they have said in response to your complaint. 1) Your complaint is valid in the sense that the incivility should not happen. That is agreed on by everyone. Lugnuts should not have said what he said, and no one should talk like that to any other user, ever. 2) Nothing is going to happen, however, so it's best at this time to drop it. It has nothing to do with the substance of your complaint. What we're all trying to tell you is how Misplaced Pages actually works (as opposed to what should happen). Generally, incivility, even gross incivility, is excused for certain users merely because they have friends or because they have people willing to defend them on grounds that have nothing to do with the substance of the complaints against them. Please note, neither I nor Phartcom or Johnuniq are actually doing that. We're not defending the actions of Lugnuts. Neither are we attacking you; you did nothing wrong and your complaint is substantive and deserves respect. Instead, what we're doing is letting you know that it's not wise to pursue it further because nothing is going to happen. --Jayron32 18:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:Dead horse. We've all said too much. Nothing to see here; move along. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Wtshymanski reverting IP editors in breach of editing restrictions

In March 2015, Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) had an editing restriction imposed because he was routinely reverting any edit made by an IP address based editor regardless of whether it was vandalism or a good faith edit. The editing restriction was:

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · logs) is banned from reverting any edit made by an editor using an IP address. This includes not only a direct reversion of an edit (using the "undo" button) but also indirectly reverting by copy-pasting text from a previous version of an article.

On the 23rd March 2016, Wtshymanski reverted an IP editor in violation of this ban with this edit.

On the 16th March, Wtshymanski reverted an IP address editor with this edit. This was an indirect revert (by copy pasting) of this good faith edit made by an IP address editor. The ban was enacted precisely to stop this last behaviour.

Note: that the ban was made for any edit made by an IP editor because Wtshymanski was disguising reverts of good faith edits by labelling them as vandalism. This is also a known tactic: to carry out an apparently harmless edit in amongst a raft of other edits to check if anyone is watching. If they are not, it is back to business as usual. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 12:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Here is a link to the long ANI discussion about this editing restriction. Liz 12:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This was a perfectly good revert. However, a ban applies and it's indefinite. Nevertheless, I find swinging the ban hammer based on a single (good) revert a little too much. The remedy was proposed to break a pattern, and this edit can hardly be said to fit that particular mold. Don't try to kill a gnat with a howitzer... Kleuske (talk) 12:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

P.S. As for the known tactic, unless you have evidence (and show it) that this is a recurring pattern with this user WP:AGF applies. Kleuske (talk) 13:00, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• I'm concerned about this because although I'd fully support these particular edits (one is vandalism, one an error) there is a problem here that Wtshymanski acquired a richly deserved editing restriction to limit. He is in breach of it.

I favour no action here, as I can't see that any action would be any more than punitive. However he should be reminded that the restriction is in place. Any further reversions like this are likely to attract sanctions.

I'm mostly unimpressed by the IP editor here trawling to find excuses to bring Wtshymanski to ANI weeks after an uninvolved event. In what way is that a constructive action? Is there need for a WP:BOOMERANG here? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I think Andy nailed it. The vandalism revert was brainless. yes W should not have done it, but pointless to punish now. But spank that petty IP. Jytdog (talk) 13:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I concur that the best response would be to caution Wtshymanski with no other administrative action. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• Suggestion If Wtshymanski didn't breach the ban for over a year (block log is clean since 2013, so I can only assume this is the case), and their first technical slipup was not of the same disruptive kind that led to the ban in the first place, perhaps someone should suggest appealing the ban, or maybe putting them on probation where they can revert clear vandalism, mistakes, etc. for, say, six months, before the restriction is lifted entirely? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Support indefinite and infinite are not the same. Kleuske (talk) 15:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

An examination of Wtshymanski's editing history answers your point. Since the ban in March 2015, Wtshymanski has only made a handful of edits (19 to be precise) up to March of this year. He has since then sprung back to life with nearly 200 edits.

Someone above dismissed the second example that I posted as an 'error'. In what way? The IP editor made a good faith edit that was technically correct. It might be argued by some that we don't call batteries as cells in every day parlance but that is not the point. Wtshymanski reverted the edit against his ban. Part of the original complaint was that Wtshymanski was not checking the history prior to his actions.

An editing ban is an editing ban. Either we have them or we don't. At the very least, Wtshymanski should be warned that he has erred. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

That is interesting, and does make me lean more toward a six-month probation period before all sanctions are lifted than simply immediately lifting the sanctions, but then again you might be just as much at fault, because apparently an IP editor has been trying to goad Wtshymanski into violating their restriction. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Not me. I have had no interaction with Wtshymanski for well over a year (apart from placing the required ANI notice on his talk page). Also forgive me but I have had to make this post from an alternative platform because the ANI page refuses to update on my regular PC. 85.255.232.7 (talk) 16:42, 9 April 2016 (UTC) (AKA 212.183.128.252)

The IP who was reverted for their error went to 3RR to push an unsourced and incorrect change, in quite a proscriptive form, "properly speaking, a battery consists of two or more cells". This is simply wrong (1 cell is still a battery), especially when stated so firmly. So whoever reverts it, that's not a statement that belongs in that article. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Before considering a reduction in restrictions, please look at the pattern of behavior here:

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive879#Editor routinely reverting contributions from IP address editors.
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive866#Wtshymanski hammering his personal knowledge into articles again
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive841#User Wtshymanski refusing to follow the merge procedure when merging articles
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#Unilateral redirects without merging as stated in edit summaries - User:Wtshymanski
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive683#Request for admin attention re: proposed deletion of multiple electronics components articles
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive690#Wtshymanski failing to work collaboratively
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive138#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Floydian .28Result: Stale.29
• Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 36#Power factor
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wtshymanski
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive257#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:85.255.233.193 (Result: Protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive172#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Guy Macon (Result: declined, semi-protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive149#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:24.177.120.74 (Result: page protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance/archive103#Wtshymanski and the transistor AfDs
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 7#Talk:PSR_B1919.2B21.23Merge

Some of the above incidents that should have ended up as blocks ended up instead as page protection because Wtshymanski's latest opponent (typically a new user) behaved worse, so Wtshymanski's block log does not tell the whole story.

Whenever a line is drawn that Wtshymanski is not supposed to cross, he stands on the line with his toes hanging over it and makes random short dashes over the line and back. This generates endless debates as to whether sanctions are appropriate for the minor infraction.

Also note that whenever Wtshymanski faces the possibility of sanctions, he typically does not defend himself or comment at ANI (statistically, this is a great strategy for avoiding sanctions) but instead stops editing for a while. The old "he hasn't edited since X, so nothing to do here" trick works every time -- his RFC/U was closed with "Considering that Wtshymanski has not edited since 16 May 2012, no immediate administrative action appears required". If he stops editing, please don't fall for this trick again.

Whenever administrators decline to take any action, Wtshymanski regards it as an endorsement of his behavior. He has repeatedly responded to warnings on his talk page with a comment that he has been taken to ANI, no action was taken, and therefore his behavior is acceptable. "... and yet, every time someone lists me at WqA or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest."

The good news is that Wtshymanski responds well to even short blocks. A 6 or 12-hour block will cause the specific behavior that led to the block to stop for many months and even years. The other good news is that the vast majority of the time he does really good work, and we have a shortage of skilled engineers who can detect problems in highly technical engineering articles. The bad news is that every so often Wtshymanski pushes the engineering equivalent of fringe theories and pseudoscience, and in such cases he refuses to accept any feedback from the other skilled engineers who are working on the page. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Most of those come from before -- some long before -- the restriction was put in place. Wtshymanski technically violated his ban twice, in a benign manner that others agree with on the substance, but thee also got in fights with IP editors and new editors as four years before the ban was put in place and managed to avoid restrictions because they were right on the substance then as well. Per what the IP said above, technically it would be impossible for a dozen instances of violating the ban to have already gone unnoticed, because they've only been actively editing for a few weeks. Retroactively blocking Wtshymanski for an edit they made back in 2011, because it my have been in violation of a restriction placed in 2015, even for only a few hours, is a terrible idea. I don't know if it was your intention -- I actually doubt it was -- but I know for a fact that there are contributors on ANI who actively try to enforce restrictions ex post facto, and I can't shake the feeling that some of them get their way, so even accidentally giving them their way here would be a disastrous misstep. And fourteen threads on multiple forums (only six on ANI) over more than half a decade is pretty average, and possibly below average for someone who's made on average around 13 edits a day for over a decade. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Where has anyone suggested that Wtshymanski be blocked for an edit made in 2011? Guy has provided some context but that is basically all. 85.255.232.7 (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

In fact, I specifically recommended that Wtshymanski not be blocked. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:26, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but at least one IP editor is requesting thus, and taking a rather cloak-and-dagger approach to it; posting links to discussions from five years ago may not muddy the waters any further, but it hardly helps the situation. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:32, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. My "posting links to discussions from five years ago" helps the situation a lot. This is a case of long-term behavior, and the fact that he was doing the same thing five or even ten years ago is extremely relevant. I presented the following context:

• Wtshymanski does a lot of good work and should be retained if at all possible.
• Wtshymanski is usually (but not always) right when it comes to questions involving engineering and technology.
• Wtshymanski often ends up battling IPs and newly-registered users who are pushing engineering pseudoscience, often for commercial reasons.
• Wtshymanski exhibits long-term problematic behavior and will not collaborate with other established Misplaced Pages editors who have technical skills.
• Wtshymanski (unlike most editors who end up at ANI) is extremely responsive to sanctions, and a very short block usually puts an end to the particular behavior being addressed.

This is context that will help any administrator who decides to deal with this situation. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:03, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• As a sometime critic of WTS, I looked at the two WTS diffs in the original report. The first one was a straightforward vandalism revert that nobody should get worked up about. The second was more problematic but should have been discussed with WTS before bringing it here. Especially since there doesn't seem to be a recent recurring issue, the report and its followup came across as axe-grinding, as per Andy Dingley. I think an admin should leave WTS a talk message linking the second diff and asking him to be more careful, but more immediate action against WTS is not needed. The batteries/cells thing should be discussed on the article talk page. The reporting IP's style also reminds me of a certain someone but I'll leave any decisions about that to others. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 21:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Remove the restriction Because frankly, it's ambiguous and can be wikilawyered to death and has no teeth at all - as evidenced here. What's the use of a ban on reverting IP edits if we're not going to enforce it? Take of off, let WTS go willy nilly all over the project, and let's just look the other direction because, once again, productive editors are above community critique. Save us the ANI discussions for a worthless ban and just take it off (I'm being sarcastic and serious at the same time, get rid of it).--v/r - TP 06:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Considering the fact that no administrator seems to be willing to even caution Wtshymanski when he violates this, and the easily-verifiable fact that Wtshymanski consistently interprets administrator inaction as permission, the restriction has already been effectively removed. We might as well make it official so nobody wastes any effort reporting future violations. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• So today we see the return of Wtshymanski, a first post to this thread asking to have the restriction lifted, then within the hour a reversion of an IP: clearly vandalism, reverted. Yes, this is "clearly vandalism". However this restriction does not have any exclusion clause for "clearly vandalism" - rightly so, because although no-one is going to object over such clear vandalism, the problem is that Wtshymanski's judgement over what is "vandalism" has been questioned in the past.

For today though, I see that someone under an editing restriction choosing to flout it so obviously during an ANI thread is hardly encouraging. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Observation of this forum shows that for threads of this type, it requires someone to propose what action is required to be taken and for there to be community support for it. That being the case ...

Proposal 1

That Wtshymanski be formally warned of his breach of his editing restriction and that a block will be imposed for any further breach. In view of the nature of the reverts, I think a block now would be counterproductive, and with the lack of activity for a couple of weeks the admins may well consider it time served.

• Support: As proposer. I would observe that if editing restrictions are not going to be enforced then, taking Guy's point above to its logical conclusion, WP:RESTRICT might as well be deleted in toto. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 11:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• I have read (some) of the above.: The purpose of an editing restriction is to protect the ostensible work of the encyclopedia, not to provide fodder for Jesuitical level discussions of fine distinctions. I would agree with the above proposals to remove the ban. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Of course the turkey would vote to abolish Christmas! 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• support With an emphasis on "block for future infringement". See above. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:58, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal 2

I might have supported option 1, but as there has now been a further infringement as in the next section, I have to propose: that Wtshymanski be blocked from editing for a period of at least one month. This is to reflect the blatant refusal to abide by this restriction. Certainly, no consideration should now be given to lifting the restriction.

Support as OP and proposer. 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Support, but I don't believe in mandating block lengths. That should be left to the discretion of the blocking administrator. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Support In view of latest revert, a warning now is pointless. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 16:55, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Continued refusal to abide by restriction

Wtshymanski, in spite of clearly being aware of this discussion about his editing restriction has blatantly and in defiance of the restriction reverted yet another edit made by an IP editor. I acknowledge that the revert was of pure vandalism, but I perhaps need to remind the contributors here, that the restriction was made for any edit made by an IP editor because Wtshymanski, in his campaign to drive IP editors away, was deliberately disguising reversions of good faith edits as vandalism. 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

MaranoFan and WP:CIR issues

This is a report concerning the user MaranoFan, whom after the emergence of several incidents on Misplaced Pages, I have come to determine has WP:CIR issues. Understandably, one may think that I am being unduly harsh, but here is my evidence which suggests that this is the case. Please note that I may shorten the user's name at times to "Marano" or "MF" throughout this filing.

1. At Talk That Talk (Rihanna song): MaranoFan removed content from the article which was actually present at the time it was nominated for Featured Article status in September 2013. The explanation was that the Daily Mail, a British tabloid newspaper, was an unreliable source. Had this information and its source been contentious, it would have been removed prior to achieving its high standard award. However, what Marano had failed to realise was that the Daily Mail can be used as a source for musical reviews - see here. Furthermore, this negative review, carried out by a DM journalist, is needed to achieve a balanced viewpoint on the article.
2. Following this, MF then proceeded to continue with their removal of several sources from the article Love Me Like You; difference between revisions here. The same behaviour was demonstrated here, here, and here. Another user, Snuggums, told MaranoFan later that HitFix was indeed a reliable source here.
3. The aforementioned reversions actually appear to be an attempt to WP:HOUND the user Calvin999; the sources were initially added by him. I also see passive-aggressive attempts to WP:HOUND the user Winkelvi, such as through the giving of barnstars to editors whom they had ostensibly never had interactions with before, and also who had been in disagreement with WV before here. The statement "I don't think we have ever interacted on wiki before" is incorrect, as MF had interacted with this user on their talk page previously in regards to an issue with an editor who is now indefinitely blocked for abusing multiple accounts: Here.
4. Furthermore, this non-AGF edit summary calls Calvin999 a vandal, something which he is most definitely not; he has been on Misplaced Pages for over six years.
5. Finally, MaranoFan recently requested autopatrolled rights. In their reason for requesting these rights, MaranoFan said: " would be REALLY helpful in creating articles." - diff here However, WP:AUTOPAT does not help one in the creation of articles. It was evident that MF had failed to read the aforementioned page on the user right, and another editor had pointed this out on the WP:PERM page - diff here.

Also note: There's also this GA nomination. MaranoFan had nominated this article for GA when they had not edited it for weeks - they also had not met the improvement criteria issued in the previous GA nom which had failed. Calvin further addressed the failed GA at User talk:Carbrera. When MaranoFan decided to notify Tomica of the situation, and even when asked by him to stop, Marano carried on - difference between revisions here.

Whilst I have time to do this, I'll add: Polemic vios by MF here and here. In one of these revisions, I am referred to as a "vandal", as MF had previously referred to Calvin. I, for one, have never vandalised Misplaced Pages, and this is therefore a baseless accusation, not to mention the fact that it seems they are unaware of the definition for "vandal", further demonstrating their incompetence as an editor.

Overall, I feel as if I can no longer assume that this editor is contributing in good faith in any way whatsoever. When a long-term editor fails to understand key policies, and is harassing other editors, I can only assume that there are WP:CIR issues involved. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed 1 week block for Ches

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Having reviewed this report (which demonstrates that Ches does not even understand WP:CIR or WP:AGF) and the Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Alternative_proposal:_block_for_MaranoFan spectacular time wasting failure by Ches to get the same editor blocked above, it is evident that Ches is on a quest to drive User:MaranoFan off the project for no good reason. This behavior is harassing another editor and should not be rewarded by more attention at ANi except to look at Ches's behavior.

• Support as proposer. Legacypac (talk) 16:35, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't know the background of this but the first 4 points presented seem legit and the 5th makes an off-topic point. I see no reason to ban Ches for that. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 16:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose I can't see how Ches should have a WP:BOOMERANG hit them here - as per QEDK, 4 valid points worthy of bringing to the community I feel, and there's no 'driving off the project' going on here I don't think - evidence please. Mike1901 (talk) 17:06, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose and condemn this as spurious and tendentious. As some of the complaints contained within the previous thread alluded too were equally legitimate: and it is perhaps slightly unfair to blame Chesnaught555 for that thread, when in fact it was originally proposed *BY ME*... and was supported by other editors too. This will undoubtedly be a case of that rarity in physics and wood-working... the boomerang that itself boomerangs. _Fortuna 17:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per QEDK. Gamaliel (talk) 17:26, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per QEDK also. Roy Howard Mills (talk) 18:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose and recommend the proposer withdraw this absurdity. Hy Brasil (talk) 18:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm going to create a Bingo card for ANI. The first row will have "meritless calls for a boomerang", "accusations of bullying", "166 IP harasses Ricky81682", "Drmies", and "a close is reverted at least three times". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:01, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note I have undone Legacypac's close: if WP:INVOLVED could apply to non-Admins, this would be the money shot. _Fortuna 19:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually you did not, Ches and his proxy did. Legacypac (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Well DUH... edit conflict. That was a great close of yours though, really great. _Fortuna 04:16, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

In passing the community is empowered to reach consensus on topic, interaction or site bans but cannot impose a block. Whereas admins can unilaterally impose a block, but not a ban. Yes it's a boring technicality - only worth mentioning in that strictly speaking this division of authority invalidates the proposal in the above thread. -- Euryalus (talk) 12:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I just noticed this thread and was appalled by Legacypc's proposal. May I remind everyone that Ches did in fact not create the idea. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi initially proposed a block for MaranoFan with Ches and I agreeing. I suggested to Ches to create a sub-section for the second proposal in MF's thread. To just blatantly assume that Ches was the initiator was just wrong. Please check your facts straight. I haven't reviewed this thread, but I will once I find the time to do so. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 16:01, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I'd just like to thank you both (Callmemirela and Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi) for clarifying that. Of course, I do accept responsibility for starting the official proposal as such. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 17:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

So, Callmemirela, Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, QEDK, Mike1901, Gamaliel, Hy Brasil, and NinjaRobotPirate - thanks for your input so far. I am pinging you all as you have all responded to this thread in some way - what do you think of these WP:POLEMIC violations posted after I filed this discussion here and here? As you can see by the diffs, Marano is referring to me as a "vandal" - does this demonstrate incompetence due to the fact that I do not fall under this definition? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 15:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I see a lot of drama going on, and much of it doesn't have an immediately obvious instigator. Part of the problem is that I don't want to spend hours reading through a dozen old conversations to get the full picture, and ANI already has enough people who go off half-cocked. But, yes, I think MaranoFan needs to stop posting polemics and calling people vandals, which is a personal attack. Making lightly-veiled personal attacks in a rant on your user page is a bad idea. It's not going to reduce drama. I don't know what's going on in all this other drama, and I'd rather not dig deeper to find out. My advice is for everyone to just chill out and leave each other alone. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

That's fine, NinjaRobotPirate - thanks for your input. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 18:31, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't see anything actionable. Some of his comments seem intended to illicit a negative response. If the pattern continues perhaps re-visit later. Hy Brasil (talk) 21:04, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Given how you and especially your proxy WV have attacked this editor over and over, I think you are the last editors that should be auditing his edits. Legacypac (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Feudin'

It might be better, in the long run, to community ban a half dozen to a dozen editors, on both sides of this feud, and see if the grownups can claw back some amount of control. Or, setting our sights a little lower, it might at least reduce the average length of ANI by about a third. A lot of the same names keep popping up, either attacking one of the editors in the other clan, or defending their own clan members who are being attacked.

It would be tricky to decide how far down the list of hangers-on to go with the bans, but a couple of good rules of thumb that someone might be a good candidate for banning might be:

• they have commented in this thread, or the Winkelvi thread further up the page, and consider more than one of the other participants a "friend" or an "enemy"
• they have said 'you are banned from my talk page' to more than one person in the last 6 months
• they communicate primarily through templates
• they seem to have an extremely tenuous grasp of the golden rule; indeed, they seem to follow its complete opposite

One approach would an ArbCom case, wherein we try to get all of them banned at once. However, I suspect that many of them would welcome that, as the drama is fun, and it would get derailed. Wide-ranging interaction bans would be too difficult to maintain where there are so many editors involved. Another approach, which I'm considering instigating unilaterally on my own, is to declare an involuntary cease fire, and the next time I see any of these people say anything remotely unkind about any of the others, no matter how justified that particular comment might be, either directly or on their friend's talk pages, no matter how many vandals they report or edits they make or friends they have, no matter how long they've been here, I'll block them for 1 month. And then I'll block anyone on the other side who gloats or gravedances. Until they're all blocked, or until they all stop it. Thoughts? --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that, with an exception for user talk pages. If they want to whine and bitch at each other about nothing much they can do so as much as they like on their own talkpages as far as I'm concerned, but when crap like this keeps cropping up on watchlists they're over the line into disruption. I'm more than willing to hand out indefs all around and let all parties compete to write the most convincing {{unblock}}; this is possibly the most ridiculously overblown dispute I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages, and I was around for the Em Dash Wars. This page is supposed to be "for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Misplaced Pages that require the intervention of administrators and experienced editors", not "for people to waste other peoples' time whining that someone disagreed with them". ‑ Iridescent 22:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm in major agreement with many of your points here, Floquenbeam and Iridescent. My watchlist has many "go away" type reverts from these "factions" on their respective talk pages on weekly basis. Lately it's been the barnstars and such for, basically, being on the same side of the argument as them. They assume bad faith of each other. They attack each other through both veiled and unveiled references. They follow each other around and act in ways that would violate WP:INVOLVED if they had admin tools. Little good is coming from this group. only (talk) 01:32, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

As an observation, just looking at those who appear currently to be the three current noisiest protagonists, Chesnaught555 has more edits to ANI than to the entire Talk: and Misplaced Pages Talk: namespaces combined, and 10 times as many edits to his own userpage than to any actual article; Winkelvi has more edits to both ANEW and ANI than to any article, while MaranoFan has less than 100 edits to all the drama boards combined and consistently has the majority of their edits to article space. If this doesn't end in blocks all round, it may be time to consider topic bans for the former two from any AN/ANI/ANEW discussion not directly concerning them pour encourager les autres, to be extended as necessary to any further members of this particular squabbling group who continues to raise trivial complaints anywhere other than on their own talkpages. Ignore all rules cuts both ways; "if a rule prevents you from improving Misplaced Pages ignore it" is sound policy, but it also means that if there's consensus that an editor or group of editors is generating more heat than light and disrupting the work of people who are actually doing something useful, it's within policy to take whatever action is necessary to shut them up, and clogging up ANI in the way this clique have been surely qualifies. (For whichever aggrieved editor wants to complain that this post is violating their Inalienable Misplaced Pages Right To Free Speech, arbcom is that way.) ‑ Iridescent 02:59, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

That's a bullshit ad hominem argument. A person can participate anywhere whenever they feel like. I'm not advocating anything for anyone, just making a point having faced such arguments. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 03:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I've sort of had enough of this, so if blocking me or a CBAN is in order, I bear no objection. If the community doesn't see me fit to edit, I'll do as they say. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 06:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

If it helps, I'm all up for a ceasefire, to stop the escalating drama. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to just close this as withdrawn, but please consider it so. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 07:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

"see if the grownups can claw back some amount of control." - We are all adults here. I'm pretty sure I'm older than most in this thread.  — Calvin999 08:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Same here, Calvin999. As far as a "ceasefire" - I refuse to refer to it as such because I've never considered any of this a "war". But, because at least two of us being referred to are adults, I'm fine saying I have no qualms being an adult by continuing to leave the stick on the ground (pretty sure I haven't had the stick in my hand for at least a week in this thread or the other one started by MF far above this one). Personally, I like Floquenbeam's idea: "declare an involuntary cease fire, and the next time I see any of these people say anything remotely unkind about any of the others, no matter how justified that particular comment might be, either directly or on their friend's talk pages, no matter how many vandals they report or edits they make or friends they have, no matter how long they've been here, I'll block them for 1 month. And then I'll block anyone on the other side who gloats or gravedances". The only thing I disagree with is making it involuntary. I think there should be an opportunity for any/all involved to act on this voluntarily; if they do not, then make it involuntary for those not complying on a voluntary basis. I will be the first to take the chance to voluntarily declare a truce. In so doing, I'm asking only (since he filed a close request for the other report above) to take note of my voluntary action. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I have no objection to Floquenbeam's idea. I am fully aware of the fact that I am part of a community where most people are adults, and as such, I will behave in a mature manner and drop the stick. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Easter126

There is a massive Sockfarm around the Topic Stuart Styron.

In the Table only SUL works fine...

Ulla1956 is allready blocked on en:wp (legal threat), user Patriska2601 Helde43 Schitty666 Schmidtrach2 are bloked od de:wp ((Personal attacks or harassment))

The Easter126 was blocked infinit (Personal attacks or harassment), but the Admin reduces it to three month until jun. I suggest to set it again to infinit, cause this is a Sockpuppet / DUCK Schmitty (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes, Stuart Styron has come up before, Schmitty. See Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_80#Bert_Martinez_.282.29 and Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_94#Stuart_Styron, you might like to check these out. The Stuart Styron page itself has been salted so nothing much is going to happen there. As it happens, I have an IP on my user page today asking about Stuart Styron, I've not responded yet. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:47, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

https://de.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalismusmeldung/Archiv/2016/04/10#Benutzer:2.243.198.61_.28erl..29_2 Banned for 1day in de:wp. He is trying to stalk me in german wikipedia, look at my userpage and userdisk https://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Schmitty&action=history Schmitty (talk) 22:52, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

His contribs were fully deleted: https://de.wikipedia.org/Spezial:Beitr%C3%A4ge/2.243.198.61 Schmitty (talk) 22:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• Those were my listings at COIN.
  • User:Fasterthanyou123 self disclosed as Stuart Styron, so a sock of User:Styron111 . Dormant, but both still should be blocked indef for socking/promo only IMHO, plus this widespread abuse from a big sockfarm.
  • User:Flashfox7 account name appears to be a play on my account name, and a clear sock. Dormant but should be blocked. Widefox; talk 09:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Of those listed by Schmitty, four have created pages (all deleted) about Stuart Styron: Ulla1956 (blocked indefinitely), Flashfox7, Easter126 (blocked 3 months) and Nature024. Fasterthanyou123, who has as you say self-identified as Styron, also edited the Stuart Styron page. Was your conclusion that there was meatpuppetry/paid editing at play here? The others are not registered, have not edited or, in the case of Styron111, made only two edits in 2011. None are currently active on en.wiki (in the cases of Ulla1956 and Easter126, this is not voluntary). Schmitty has opened a checkuser request on de.wiki and we can see how that pans out. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 04:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thought we indef blocked socks? This is quite humdrum and melodramatic but not over yet: AFAIR, one person with at least three accounts, possibly with other accounts being meats from a promo company (use of "we" is probably not a English translation artifact but may be more of a royal we that group account/meats). Now, add IP duck sock of Styron User:2.244.158.181 - broken English, style of choosing the good path(TM), etc. COIN can be a bit toothless, but this drama keeps giving despite it being belatedly salted... Ad hominem and legal threats towards Schmitty and disruption of my usertalk Widefox; talk 08:21, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

www.pressemitteilung-verteilen.com/wikipedia-deutschland-mit-benutzer-schmitty-ganz-weit-vorne Stalking in a bad way, in this PR you find a link to:

http://www.amazon.de/Die-Akte-Misplaced Pages-Informationen-Online-Enzyklop%C3%A4die/dp/386445123X/ref=pd_cp_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=19PY5TE21NHKGG28C81B

Amazon has already deleted this "Post", stating me as a Psychopath. The other PressArtikel is also deleted now.

You find the Links in conrtibutions of de:Benutzerin:Ulla1956; en:wp already blocked for legal threats, is now blocked on de:wp

Schmitty (talk) 11:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Here's an English translation of the www.pressemitteilung-verteilen.com link which is a dead link today .Widefox; talk 14:23, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

http://www.pressemitteilung-verteilen.com/wikipedia-deutschland-polizei-ermittelt-gegen-benutzer-schmitty Stalking again Stalking at its best Schmitty (talk) 12:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Longfamily417

This report is about the conduct of User:Longfamily417 concerning Draft:SageTea. This draft was submitted nine times to Articles for Creation within 36 hours by the owner of the company, who is apparently in a great hurry to obtain free advertising in Misplaced Pages for his company, and who has repeatedly made minor changes to the draft without addressing substantive issues. The author was repeatedly cautioned to stop resubmitting the draft tendentiously, and was advised to request comments at the Teahouse or the Help Desk, but persisted in resubmitting. Finally one of the reviewers nominated the draft for Miscellany for Deletion at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:SageTea. At this point (and only at this point), the author stated that he would step aside from editing and resubmitting the draft, but would ask another editor, a former employee of the company, to take responsibility. That is a clear case of attempting to game the system.

In this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Draft%3ASageTea&type=revision&diff=714487940&oldid=714486700 the author included text of a granted patent that was copyrighted by the US Patent and Trademark Office.

Longfamily417 may have a valid argument for notability, which doesn’t change the fact that there is a problem. The problem is not so much the company or the draft or the notability issue. The problem is a disruptive single-purpose account who will stop at nothing to get his free advertising. It is clear now that the real answer is not whether to delete the draft, but whether to delete (or sanction) the editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The following edit was made to my talk page, only after the eighth submission: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ARobert_McClenon&type=revision&diff=714535620&oldid=714477850 I may be cynical (or WP:AGF really may be a suicide pact that I am not honoring), but I can't accept the good faith of a statement that my advice is appreciated, when my advice to ask for advice at the Teahouse was ignored. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:38, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Broad Topic-Ban

I propose that User:Longfamily417 be topic-banned from SageTea, broadly construed, and from any other topic in which the editor has any sort of conflict of interest. COI editing in draft space is not normally considered forbidden by policy because the draft is not outward-facing, is subject to review, and may be edited to neutralize it by reviewers and other editors. However, in this case, Longfamily417 is pursuing a COI agenda so aggressively that only a topic-ban will prevent further disruption. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The nominator obviously supports his nomination, and is already counted in. WannaBeEditor (talk) 03:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Irrelevant and unnecessary point, actually! _Fortuna 07:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support142.105.159.60 (talk) 03:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see the problem. They've removed the offending content, they've made a COI statement, they've tried to get outside help in good faith. They've agreed with removals of content. They're trying to comply with our policies; and they've tried to comply with everything being said to them. I don't see what has made you rush over to ANI on this topic. What, exactly, are they doing that is disruptive?--v/r - TP 03:51, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Weak support They're clearly only here to advertise, so topic ban seems okay. However, I think indefinitely blocking as not here to contribute positively would be more appropriate. Also, he's said he's getting someone else to write the article for him, so I guess the topic ban should cover that too? Joseph2302 (talk) 07:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• I propose we topic ban Dweepsteeple too, since they created SageTea in main space, and are clearly the person that the above CEO said he was going to get to work on the draft. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:11, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The above is presumably intended to refer to DweepSteeple rather than the non-existant Dweepsteeple. --David Biddulph (talk) 08:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the characterization of myself as "aggressive", I don't share that view. I work very hard on everything I do, and usually put in a 16 hour day, including looking after my 3 kids and running a business with 22 employees. I have been on Misplaced Pages for all of 2 days, and felt I was putting my time in last weekend, to make the article as best I could. Naturally, being the first submission, I had a lot of feedback, and responded quickly out of respect for the time given by the editors. My intention was not to be aggressive - it was about being timely.

I have done my best to take a step back from being involved in the article. As a CEO, I certainly understand the dangers of conflict of interest. That said, once disclosed, the problem becomes manageable, as long as it is done carefully. I fully recognize this take the guidance of others. I am refraining from comment or involvement in the article, unless asked.

In terms of the statement "getting someone else to write the article for him" I would not say that is how I communicated with the current submitter. Factually, he was a former employee of SageTea, a temporary student who is no longer with the company and left on good terms. He is also bright, and someone I don't talk with very often. What I did say is that he is free to put the article into his own words, and write about the topic however he wants. That said, his comment back to me was that the folks on Misplaced Pages were very aggressive. So I actually had to apologize to him for that. I think the point here is that I communicated with him about the idea. What I did not do is force him or make any other demand, just passed on the idea. Where it goes after this is out of my hands.

I am the inventor of the patent and the CEO of the company. If anyone wants to ask me about that one topic, I am the expert and willing to answer any questions. If I am not asked, then at this point I have nothing to say. I think that is best with respect to the COI question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longfamily417 (talk • contribs) 07:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't have admin glasses to see the deleted article in mainspace. Does it read almost the same as the current version in draft space? If so, quack, quack. Does it pass the duck test, in which case we are not just dealing with tendentious and disruptive editing, but sockpuppetry? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I has the admin glasses and the two articles have most of the same content. The deleted article has some additional technical jargon but the puffery is identical. If DweepSteeple isn't a sock, he's a meatpuppet. The claims of 'I just passed on the idea' are disingenous at best. Katie 19:11, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
    • @KrakatoaKatie: Reasonably sure they are different users, because User:Longfamily417 has been adamant that he'll get someone else to write it, although I explained that that would be a COI and meatpuppetry. :ike most of their responses, they didn't listen. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:15, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. I'm not opposed to a block but I'm not convinced there is need. The topic ban seems sufficiently broad. Most likely it'll just means the editor stops editing or is blocked because they don't stop and continue to make COI edits. There is a small chance they'll edit other articles, hopefully productively. While there is also a small chance their editing won't be productive or they'll test the boundaries, the highly narrow focus of their editing thus far suggests to me this is fairly unlikely and we can probably easily deal with it if it does happen. Based on the above comments of meat at a minimum, I suggest DweepSteeple also be topic banned. Nil Einne (talk) 19:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support six-month topic ban for Longfamily417 and DweepSteeple as necessary at this point; the aggressiveness in trying to ram this article into the encyclopedia is inappropriate. Miniapolis 23:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

SageTea article

A point noted above: there is a draft, Draft:SageTea, which is at Mfd, Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:SageTea, as promotion of a non-notable topic. The mainspace article appears to have been created as an end-run around that. Since the bar for inclusion in mainspace is higher than that in Draft and the mainspace article had all the same issues identified in the Draft (it was a copy-paste, in fact), I have removed the main space article pending outcome of the Draft MfD. Guy (Help!) 09:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I would also point out that I have been on Misplaced Pages for all of 4 days now. Give a guy a break. I can learn fast, but am still learning the interface. I hear what everyone is saying. Really. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longfamily417 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Sicilian IP disruption in music articles

There's a persistent person from Sicily who is making lots of unreferenced changes to music articles, mixed with a few obvious falsehoods. The most recent involved IPs are as follows:

• 82.51.32.41 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 82.61.34.48 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 82.61.34.110 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 79.53.4.206 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 79.30.91.134 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 79.56.98.36 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 79.27.106.92 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

This guy persists in changing to wrong credits in a few song articles, for instance "Go Away Little Girl" and "To Love A Child."

A previous notice about this guy was archived without any discussion: Sicilian IPs pushing Durium Records, Nikka Costa, inserting falsehoods globally. That discussion had a lot more detail about the person's disruption. KrakatoaKatie blocked 82.61.34.110 shortly after the March 19 notice. Can we do something stronger to stop this guy? Binksternet (talk) 03:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

He has been warned, and blocked, multiple times so I will block the latest IP. However, he is using Telecom Italia dynamic IPs so will simply pop up on another. A range block is out of the question, the IP addresses are too scattered. We do have the option of semi-protection or pc1. As "Go Away Little Girl" has been suffering since the first week of March and the disruption has continued after a one-week protection, I'll semi-protect it for a longer period. I am not sure if an edit filter would help, perhaps others might comment? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

P.S. I've created a page to start bringing together reports, IPs, article affected and action taken at User:Malcolmxl5/Sicilian_IPs. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I wish we could globally block this guy. I've been going around to different language wikis to try and counter him, and I've contacted the most effective admin who is quick to recognize, revert and block this guy on Italian-language Misplaced Pages. Let's see what K'n-yan says about it. Binksternet (talk) 06:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

He is certainly prolific. There are a few articles that he edits more than others, "Go Away Little Girl", United Artists Records and "Sleep Walk", for example. If he pops up at those, I'll semi-protect them (or you can request s-p at RfPP). Being quick to recognize him will be key, I think. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

He's popped up again as 95.238.111.155 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)), this time he is block evading. Added to User:Malcolmxl5/Sicilian_IPs. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Problem with admin who has erroneously accused me of disruptive editing on the page Clarawood

User:Davey2010 has posted to my user talk page accusing me of disruptive editing and stating that I will be blocked if I do it again . The issue stems from a reversion I did of an edit to the page by User:CDRL102 in which they said that a statement was an opinion. In reality the statement was referenced and was a matter of established fact. I explained my reversion substantially on the Clarawood talk page however this page was changed by Davey2010 and the sections deleted . Instead of taking my comment and explanation on board the immediate reaction from Davey2010 and CDRL102 was to accuse me of ownership and inexperience. Davey2010 has previously stated to me that there are Guidelines and Policies on Misplaced Pages. I have attempted to follow them and anything I have done has been referenced to such. Davey2010 however, admin or not, seems to have the attitude that he can do anything he wants. This is demonstrated by the original AfD he and CDRL102 raised for Clarawood which was closed after approx 1 hour and which was reinstated after a Deletion Review . In other words he has a pattern of what could be termed disruptive behaviour himself and deliberate ignorance of Guidelines and Policies. I am being accused of not being willing to work collaboratively and unreasonable "ownership" style behaviour concerning the page Clarawood. As I have previously argued in the AfD, talk pages and the Deletion Review this is not the case and there are very substantial references on the page and I have encouraged and asked for any problems others have with it to discuss them particularly on the talk page. The edit by CDRL102 demonstrates the importance of this as they were factually wrong. I have also been accused of reverting every edit anyone makes. This is also quite simply not true, but I have reverted non-constructive edits and explained why I did so. I have followed process in anything I have done here, I have not deleted other people's comments or blankly edited fully referenced material and I have not acted outside normal process and policy. Davey2010 however has done these things and I feel that it would be pointless and impossible to have a rational discussion with him on his talk page which is why I am raising this ANI instead. I have no problem with constructive edits to any page, that is what a collaborative encyclopaedia is about, however I think I am entirely correct when I say that edits must actually be constructive and based on fact and if they are not then it is fair to revert them. I think I am also entirely correct to say that Davey2010's behaviour has not been perfect and I hope this can be looked into Clarawood123 (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

If he tried to do anything to improve that article, then more power to him! _Fortuna 13:43, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• TL;DR - Yep I gave them a strong warning as they've heavily been trying to "promote" the article and clearly do have OWNership issues with it,

Yep I've wiped their article talkpage posts as it was more or less moans over reverts and some were unrelated to the article - I never ever do this however in this case filling the talkpage up with crap isn't ideal either -Most of it belonged on a user talkpage,

Yep I did move the article to a sandbox as CDRL was more than happy to work on it although it was reverted by Sandstein as there wasn't really any consensus at DRV for my actions,

So all in all I believe my actions overall have been okay and the only person that should be blocked is Clarawood123 for their huge amounts of disruption not only on the article but also on the DRV and the AFD. –Davey2010 14:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oh and I'm not an admin ..... thank the lord , –Davey2010 14:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I tried to edit this page, most of my edits were reverted. It was then userfied to me to improve the quality, once it was put back into Clarawood, User:Clarawood123 deleted my revision and copied and pasted his last edited revision before it was userfied. Since then, I didn't try to restore some of my improvements as I'm not going to waste my time and have it reverted again, although I did try to edit the opening paragraph, which surprise surprise was reverted. So User:Clarawood123 seems to have an Ownership Issue. CDRL102 (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed ban/WP:BOOMERANG of Clarawood123

It's pretty obvious that User:Clarawood123 has an WP:Ownership problem (I'd also point out that they're a WP:SPA and most probably have a WP:COI). I suggest this be boomeranged back to them with either a straight ban or at least a topic ban with a forced name change.142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support topic ban or ban as proposer. 142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support either, as per the WP:OWN issue- also noting the sheer amount of different editors' time and effort that s/he has wasted, which could have been spent doing better things. _Fortuna 16:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Many editors are trying to improve the article and they're simply reverting everyone and everything, Personally I don't think even a long block would change their ways so personally think they should be indeffed, Thanks, –Davey2010 18:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - ownership and competence issues are transparent. Not welcome here. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 18:20, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - I think going right to site ban is over the top. Perhaps a 6 month topic ban, to give this editor an opportunity to demonstrate they can learn the site's editing guidelines and contribute effectively to other areas of the project. Either we gain a productive editor, or they blow it and then they get a site ban. - WOLFchild 20:52, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment, on this wiki please log in for a support/oppose-statement, it simplifies the evaluation for counters (of course it's anyway no vote.) –Be..anyone (talk) 21:02, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

*Support a Topicban I notice the article is named Clarawood and that the user is named Clarawood123. With the ownership issue this is rather striking. While I can't say there's exactly a COI but their connection to Clarawood does seems likely to be apart of the reason for their disruption.With an indef topic ban they can build up other contributions outside of their single purpose and in 6 months they can appeal.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

oppose as @HyperGaruda: points out Clarawood123 does seem to be mindful of the ownership issue and can be expected to take that into account in the future. They are a new user and should be given the opportunity to correct course. In the event they do not they can be banned accordingly later. As opposed to banning her some more experienced editors can step in and assist in the article such as by fixing the article or tagging an issue with it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:18, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Extremely strong oppose on the following grounds: a site ban is overkill; this proposal is brought forth by someone who either doesn't want to take responsibility for their Misplaced Pages edits and activity by registering an account or they are a sockpuppet. I'm very uncomfortable giving this proposal any credence based on the fact that the IP proposer could be anyone who has edited here previously under an account or another IP and is currently blocked or are IP hopping or just playing games. And just for the record: the account we being discussed here for some kind of sanction/ban is way too new for anyone to be calling for a site ban, topic ban, and saying they aren't welcome in Misplaced Pages. WP:BITE immediately comes to mind. Clarawood123 HAS less than 80 edits at this writing. Some folks just don't get Misplaced Pages at first and mistake it for something other than an encyclopedia project that has extensive rules, guidelines, policies, and the like. To some, it's just an online site where they can add some stuff rather than actually seeing the bigger, more serious picture. What should happen is someone very experienced and/or very patient needs to volunteer to mentor this individual, put them in the right direction, give them sound advice, and get them editing productively, not set them up to create another account and get into the sockpuppet death-spiral. Which is what will happen if they are site-banned or topic-banned. This is a bad proposal and it's a bad precedent to allow an anon-IP to suggest such a strong move and editors going along with this should seriously rethink their agreement with the proposal, in my opinion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I share your concern with this IP. The major thing really is that the ownership issues cease.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for assuming good faith, guys. If you had checked my contribs, you'd have seen that I've been on this IP for a while. As for my proposal: here we have a blatant promotional account who is trying to force their own POV on an article, without and against consensus, and you're proposing we treat them like any other account 142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:39, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You've been here with this current IP only since January 2016, from what I can see. My concerns are well spelled out and I don't think they are unreasonable. And yes, I do think we should treat them like "any other account" -- something they are and something you are not. If you want to be taken seriously in situations such as this, my suggestion is you also get an account. I'm sure there are admins and other editors who will disagree, however, I am just as certain there are admins and other editors who would agree. It's no big deal to have an account, after all. Why not create one? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Because... it's none of your our business? _Fortuna 16:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Should this point be forced? No. Is it our business as a community when an IP is looking to have a newbie permanently banned from editing? I think it is. I've said what I had to say, and am fine dropping the issue of this IP not having an account from here on. But I won't keep silent over a permaban proposal when I don't think it's warranted. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment I would like to thank the various participants for their advice and guidance. It seems that I am being portrayed as someone who simply just reverts everything for the sake of it because I am new and unwilling to learn. This is not the truth. It also seems that those who have supported this position have taken others' comments at face value and have not checked into the history of any edits or reversions I have done or the comments I made to support those. At present following the latest edits to the Clarawood page by various editors over the last day or so it is in a state where it is factually innaccurate from the very first line of the infobox, is misreferenced throughout and is in breach of copyright as legally required statements for the attribution of multiple references have been deleted. I am not going to edit it or revert it as I will only be accused - as I have been already - of ownership etc...all I can say is that if correcting mistakes, ensuring information is factual and ensuring that material is referenced is wrong then I am happy to be wrong. Hopefully someone with a bit of sense and gravitas will look into this Clarawood123 (talk) 09:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Clarawood123, if you have identified material currently on the page that is a copyright violation, it's pretty important that you identify that content, because it needs to be removed.

Otherwise, some general comments:

• Although multiple people have been involved in edit skirmishes on the article, as well as the AfD, attempts to have any discussion at all on the article talk have been weak sauce at best, and not always been done with the best tone, on multiple sides. For example, CDRL102's remark "you're incabable, that's all", is sure to lead to productive discourse, and not at all escalate tensions.
• Davey2010's behavior also leaves much to be desired, such as not blanking discussion on the article talk with such helpful summaries as "Stop filling the talkpage with moans" (please see WP:NPA and WP:TPO), not to mention giving a final warning as a first warning on Clarawood123's user talk, and threatening indef, which is clearly not a thinly veiled "fuck you".
• I am very suspicious of a ban proposal by an IP, especially after four comments, three of which were made by the two above referenced editors.
• To their credit HyperGaruda has made a commendable effort and others should follow their example.

So overall, oppose ban, support not WP:BITEing, recommend certain editors take a few moments of serious self-examination. TimothyJosephWood 18:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I admit I could've discussed it better with them but overall my behaviour was absolutely fine, They deserved a warning months ago however I left off the warnings in the hope they'd get the hint .... which they didnt hence the final...., I stated above on why I removed their talkpage comments and my edit summaries wasn't a personal attack, Ofcourse because you're absolutely perfect and haven't ever made a mistake in your life have you ? .... –Davey2010 18:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Clearly six minutes wasn't enough personal reflection time. Your actions have not been absolutely fine, and saying that they were is not a justification. TimothyJosephWood 18:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I called the User 'incapable' after they again reverted one of my edits, which has been fixed by another editor since. CDRL102 (talk) 19:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I find in my travels through life, that insulting people is generally not an effective communication technique. TimothyJosephWood 20:07, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. Well, that escalated quickly. Taking into account how new Clarawood123 is, you could be a little more considerate. From their comment above, it appears that the you do not own Misplaced Pages pages message has finally sunk in. Perhaps it is best if someone experienced in the Wiki-MoS checks and old version of Clarawood, such as this one, tagging problems as they go through the page (don't forget to save it to a sandbox), like I did in one section. That way, Clarawood123 can learn what exactly is wrong/unwikipedic, instead of being flooded by vague comments that the article has problems somewhere at an unspecified location. - HyperGaruda (talk) 17:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support site ban - I tried to talk with this user and they are 100% committed to the view everything they have done is fine and everyone else has done wrong, and cannot see their COI. They have resisted all efforts at dialogue to reach consensus (not just with me, but from day 1); this stance toward the community has been and is disruptive and won't stop being disruptive; they have no place here. Jytdog (talk) 18:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - per JYT, and actions smack of WP:TEND. Clearly not here to contribute cooperatively. Toddst1 (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - editor has demonstrated an incapability to talk about their editing stances without some way incorporating their commentary/opinion of an editor to it. This is not a battleground. Based on the information that's relayed, Ciarawood123's condescending and ownership attitudes isn't helping anything to resolve anything. Proceeding to start massive discussions so to talk about another editor rather than just make the discussion about what it is about the article they have a problem with is not how to start an article talk page discussion or otherwise seek consensus. It also doesn't help that he edit wars and fights when others challenge him and only trying to get his way. I am not familiar with the subject area and do not make an opinion on anyone's edits at hand, but we don't always have to know which is the right version of an article to know whether an editors perception of collaboration is the correct one. Its about working with others to achieve the one goal to build an encyclopedia, not treating others as opponents when they disagree with you. Its detracting from our goals when we have people on this project that don't seem to know what collaboration and working with others truly means. —Mythdon 07:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Response In reply to the last few commenters - a simple search through and perusal of the entire correspondence relating to the page Clarawood, including those comments and talk page sections which have been deleted by other editors - in my view deliberately as part of their campaign to portray me as something I am not - will demonstrate fully that my focus has been on the content of the page and the quality of the information and referencing on it. When some editors have stated that they tried to improve the page but I just reverted as usual, this portays me as a disruptive and non-collaborative editor with ownership issues. But this is not the truth as I have been saying for some time now and which is the reason I raised this ANI. I will offer an analogy. If any of the editors above had created and written a page and then I came on and made edits which left it demonstrably factually wrong would they be justified in reverting those edits? I think they would. Further, if, despite having explained exactly why they reverted, they were then accused of ownership, bias and disruption would this be true? The answer is it would not. As I have previously urged people to do, please do not participate in this without fully looking at the facts and without being completely and utterly honest. The reality is that a number of those involved have not been honest, are guilty themselves of the things they are accusing me of - and worse - and when others with more rational minds have tried to highlight this to them they have blanked it and indeed acted arrogantly and rudely. I have attempted to keep my arguments and comments civil and rational and on key. I have had to defend myself against other editors which is why I have had to mention them. It was me who was the person focussing on content in the first place. As I stated above the article is now in breach of copyright, seriously misreferenced from the first line and factually wrong from the first line. This is because in their haste to make me out to be a fool and defend their friends the editors concerned have acted irrationally and rashly and frankly do not have knowledge of the subject they were dealing with. Pointing this out does not make me disruptive, it does not mean I am moaning, it does not mean I am unwilling to collaborate, it does not mean I cannot self reflect or that I have a conflict of interest - it means that an article which was factual and fully referenced has been vandalised in a way which is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages. By those who are accusing others ie me of the same actions. I am getting rather sick of this ongoing nonsense myself and sick of constantly having to defend myself from people jumping on the bandwagon without checking their facts Clarawood123 (talk) 20:38, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose ban for now. Other editors' attempts to deal with the content and ownership issues have been as significant a cause of this situation. This discussion has brought it to a wider audience; the response from Clarawood123 has is not ideal but is understandable. More time is needed. Peter James (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - This user is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

RE: Disruptive Editor - Karst

Hello Administrator. I would like to report a Disruptive Editor I have had continuous problems with the user Karst, as have many other editors: User talk:Wkpe16, User talk:ZachDelRey, User talk:Nuro Dragonfly, User talk:Donottroll... He nominated my old userpage for deletion (Link) when I was drafting in it, instead of just politely informing me that this was against the guideines. More importantly, they frequently replace Up-to-date images for old ones, and deletes cited, valid content, both for no reason. This irritates many editors. Most recently, he caused an edit war on J. Ralph (if you'll please look at the revision history) with Eldorado74, who noticed that I had had trouble with Karst before, and came to me for help: "hello Limehous-0. I am hoping you can help me a problem I am having with the user Karst. I see that you have had major problems with this user as well on your articles. He keeps vandalizing the article on J. Ralph and removing valid info. The article is properly cited from valid external sources yet Karst continues to revert and change relevant, factual information that is properly sourced and cited. Can you help me?" Please see Karst's talk page and read my most recent attempt to politely tell him that he was annoying loads of editors. Also read the other editors posts. Please do not conclude this report is vengeance for my userpage. I make this report to help Eldorado74, and make Misplaced Pages a better place. Thankyou, and Kind Regards.Limehous-0 (talk) 17:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Is this another WP:SOC of Eldorado74 (talk · contribs)? Keith D (talk) 18:48, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi This isn't Sock Puppetry by Eldorado. When I used the CandidLibraryEditors Karst repeatedly disrupted my edits. Many other editors can confirm that he disrupts. See my report for their talk pages. Eldorado came to me for help. Karst is now "enlisting editors in an edit war against Eldorado on the article J. Ralph. I do think he needs to be sorted out. Thanks. Limehous-0 (talk) 19:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Funny how there's no post on your talk page from Eldorado74 about this issue. Also funny how he couldn't have emailed you because you haven't enabled email in your preferences. Katie 19:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Definitely some fishy stuff going on. Limehous-0 is a new user with two lifetime edits to actual articles. Here they seem to be removing someone else's barnstar from Karst's talk. Here they add an entire months old conversation back to his talk, supposedly, because they wanted to add their own content. The sock is strong with this one. TimothyJosephWood 19:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi Timothy and Katie. If you'll look, on my userpage, A box says "you can find me on discogs too!". following the link, my Discogs profile shows my email. This is how Eldorado contacted me. Also note, my lack of contribs is because I used to use the account CandidLibraryEditors, but swapped; unaware I could have just changed the name. Sorry, but can we get to the matter in hand - Karst's disruptive beahavior! Limehous-0 (talk) 20:05, 11 April 2016 (UTC) Also note, my email uses "Limehouse" and my eBay and Discogs profiles both use "Limehous-0". a sock wouldn't have all this! Limehous-0 (talk) 20:07, 11 April 2016 (UTC) The long post including old content was me trying to talk to Karst and tell him how annoying he was. The old content was "proof". I removed his barnstar, because I no longer thinked he deserved it (and admin wasn't appropriate). Note, I was CandidLibraryEditors when I gave it too him. Limehous-0 (talk) 20:13, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Relevant COIN Thread TimothyJosephWood 20:24, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• It looks like both Karst and Eldorado74 have passed 3 reverts on J. Ralph so I have given them both warnings. It looks like Lemongirl942 has come on and is contributing to this article and what it really needs now is to have participation from other editors. Liz 21:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• I fully except the warning on the WP:3RR and will leave it to third party editors to work on the article, sincerely hoping the other party in the dispute will do so too. As indicated on the Talk page for J. Ralph, after failing to reach consensus, I sought mediation on resolving the issue (aware that the other party did not need to engage with it). At the suggestion of @Voceditenore: I lodged the issue at WP:COIN yesterday. I'm rather puzzled at the involvement of Limehous-0 who has never edited the article. I'm happy to respond to any other specific issues, but as no diffs have been given, I'm currently unable to do so. Karst (talk) 18:08, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

For my personal input and with my subsequent investigation of the proof given by the aggrieved party, can't find the specific part where Karst has been the editor who altered the page in question. It is by my viewing of the given link to be Skyerise that has changed the article last. I, without proof, am not going to condemn Karst for something that hasn't been shown, in specific proof via a link provided, to have been the guilty party. Nuro msg me 02:56, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Dood. Conciseness. U need 2 git u sum. TimothyJosephWood 00:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Please stick paragraph breaks in there and consider pruning your comment. Drmies (talk) 02:46, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I do, with the evidence presented hithertofor, and the agreement of all thus far concerned, retract my previous spurious accusations of robust argumentation. TimothyJosephWood 03:10, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello all. Just want to clarify here as well. I am not affiliated with Limehous-0 in any way whats ever. Today was the first time I contacted him/her as I am trying to get some help regarding the J. Ralph article. I have also reached out to Keith D previously for help as well. I certainly do not know the ins and outs of wikipedia as well as all of you nor all this lingo. I again state that I am only trying to create an accurate properly cited article that is fact based however impressive or "trivial" as Lemongirl942 has said certain things are. That is an opinion. I have left my opinion out of the article and only used the sources and facts themselves as the highlights. I would appreciate any help to resolve this. Eldorado74 (talk) 03:14, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

G'day - I will start by saying that there hasn't been a concise, clear, specific link to the part where Karst is proven to be altering anything. The only change to the article that was given was implicating Skyerise in the last change to the article. If you could provide the link to the specific part where Karst is doing so that would help us make some sort of opinion on the alleged disruptive behaviour. Nuro msg me 03:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello Nuro, if you look on the J. Ralph talk page you can see all the events between Karst and I. Again Karst continues to change the article to delete relevant properly cited material and add information that is not cited/correct. Eldorado74 (talk) 10:56, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment and Explanatory - G'day Eldorado74 - Firstly, I find it very strange that someone who has asked the help, and going into to bat on behalf of another editor, of the Adim and Mediation process (sort of, that's specifically another page) that doesn't have a User Page set up themselves (your name is in red). You might want to fix this.

To the question at hand.

Either you or L-0 or CLE (who are the same person) have asked for there to be some consensus on the behaviour of the long time editor Karst about the content issues that are on this J. Ralph person's WP Article.

#1 - My original response to the request to become involved was very long-winded and I edited it, but after your request for me to read the Talk Page, and I now have, I will state the basics behind Karst's 'oversight' of the article itself is nearly what I had to say myself.
#2 - I will support the efforts of Karst to get the point across that WP is not an Advertisement for any one, and this article is blatantly self promotional in the extreme as far as I'm concerned, and that's completely irrelevant of any protesting that 'its just the facts' Ma'am to quote the Blues Bros. The amount of times the words 'award winning' or 'Oscars' or 'world renowned' and various others in a multitude of mixing and matching them is, quite simply, not what is expected of a article for someone to come on the WP and find some relevant, Neutral, Unbiased, information to start to research an artist they are wanting to.
#3 - The entire article needs to be rewritten by who ever put it up or by someone who has some interest in the artist, as I've never heard of the person or any of the works he has done, which in itself is not relevant to the issue but I am stating as much as musician of over 25 years myself.
#4 - What Karst is trying to get through with his comments on the Talk Page are what is expected of any Senior Editor on the WP to keep free from such issue as the Copyright infringements that had been noted. This is a very serious matter I will stress.
#5 - You have claimed to be acting on behalf of another party, if I'm not mistaken, which in itself is unusual, in some ways, though not unheard of. I find the fact that there is Three (3) different parties with WP profiles attempting to claim the same stance in the manner it has been done quite suspicious. That's not slandering your name personally but if you've been on here long enough you learn how some people try to circumnavigate the rules.
#6 - Karst has put the effort in to educate the facts of the WP rules in the Talk Page, and I will state here that he (I think) and I did not get off on the right foot for similar reasons. But the learning process that I went through to understand the way things HAVE to be done around here has made that redundant now. The expectations of any person who wishes to Edit Articles is quite specific and quite high.
#7 - My summary of whether or not the 'Tone' or the written word of the Senior Editor has come across as being 'Nice' is to an extend also redundant. I don't like the attitudes of various Senior Editors that I have had to deal with on here for various reasons but that doesn't change the fact that the rules have to be followed, by us all, and there is a plethora of WP articles on how to go about your editing the WP.
#8 - If there is a specific point on how Karst has written his explanations, and responses to the issues raised, on the Talk Page, then that will need to be specifically outlined by you, then dissected by a Senior Moderator, which is not here, and that's after you request a Mediation process, which I'm afraid to say will most likely not happen, considering the way the article is written. If it gets rewritten, before it most likely, due to the scutiny it now has, gets AfD'ed for the content and Copyright infringements that have been raised, then you may have a case.

The unfortunate truth is that the article reads as an attempt at free advertising and that is not what WP is for. Nuro msg me 03:33, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't look like this is going anywhere other than a group therapy session for people Karst has reverted. Someone might want to look toward closing or redirecting the conversation toward something productive.

Also, "Just the facts" is Sgt Joe Friday, not the Blues Bros. TimothyJosephWood 17:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm assuming your not referring to me, as I was asked to give my thoughts on the matter, so I have done so, and for the record I have no issues with Karst.
I do agree that this is rather redundant and somewhat pointless though and should be moved. I also consider my input to be productive for the sake of neutral impartiality, and don't consider my effort to be a waste of my time, or to be treated as such by anyone...

And it was the Blues Brothers, when they go to the door of the lady who had two of the band living upstairs of her house, and its Elwood that says it, but I agree, as I have always assumed this was a piss-take (Aussie slang for mocking someone) of Sgt Joe Friday anyway. Nuro msg me 22:19, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Naw fam. That was the blue brothers making a reference to Dragnet. <3 TimothyJosephWood 00:22, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Ahh yes, thats it, Dragnet....both on tv here in Australia when I was a kid, but more my parents gen than mine. Nuro msg me 00:34, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

User black washing the articles

The user 92.106.216.139 is continuously black washing the Kurdish women article. Edits of this user:
Diff : This edit was a clearly against WP:POV.
Diff : Wordpress --> .
Diff : Reversed or edited 6 cherry pickings. Check the sources.
Diff : The user changed Sorani speaking Kurds to all Kurds, Iraqi Arabs to all Arabs (Black washing).
A 2014 survey from UNICEF found a 58.5% prevalence of FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan.--> The source doesn't mention anything like that. The source is related to the small survey about two cities, not all Iraqi Kurdistan (Black washing).
Diff : Read the source, it's clearly cherry picking.

The user has added only FGM, honor killing and other negative things to the article. The article is related to the Kurdish women but ~80% is about FGM, honor killing and other crimes. Also, according to another user, this users has involved in mass deletions of sourced contents, offensive edit summaries, disruptive editing and meatpuppetting.-->Ferakp (talk) 22:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The disruptive behaviour of this user Ferakp has been reported previously: see this discussion at ANI and this conclusion

To summarize, just some of the many issues with this user

He deletes, removes and reverts information and sources that do not comply with his nationalist POV. Such deletions include well sourced information

He in particular does not tolerate that articles mention the women's rights situation and the violence against (Kurdish women). He also wants articles on LGBT Kurds and on Kurdish feminists deleted.

When information is added that goes against his nationalist POV, and he can't delete it, he very often editorializes it until it gives a completely different spin than the original

In these cases, he made many source misrepresentations, including some gross ones, which hurts the reputation of wikipedia, like modifying direct quotes from books

His excuses when challenged are that some random news articles contradict the information, or that is blackwashing, or Turkish propaganda

Because of his disruptive behaviour it has been impossible to write in these articles

Besides, his claim that violence against women is overrepresented at the Kurdish women article is baseless. Just two examples: Female Genital mutilation is nowhere else outside of Africa as widely practiced as in Iraqi Kurdistan, and the United Nations Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI) has characterized "honor killings as a serious concern in Iraq, particularly in Iraqi Kurdistan". @Spacecowboy420: @EkoGraf: @Patetez: @Denizyildirim: @Opdire657: @Gala19000:@GGT: @Ottomanor:@Chickchick77:@SlimVirgin:@Shawn in Montreal:@ThePlatypusofDoom:@Snow Rise:@Shadow4dark:

PS. I won't have time to comment further until late Wednesday. --92.106.216.139 (talk) 22:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Since I was pinged, I'll just point out that Ferakp has stated on his user page that he has stopped editing Misplaced Pages. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:40, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Above Ferakp claims I was cherry picking because of this:

The original source reads: More or less silent on women an non-princely classes, it makes references to the women of the ruling landowning class, and their exclusion from public life and the exercise of state power. According to this source, the Kurds, following the Islamic tradition, took four wives and, if the could afford it, four maids or slave girls (jariyya). Daughters and sisters were given or exchanded in marriage as a means of settling wars and blood feuds. When one side was defeated, the victor took over the women of the enemy as booty and as proof of the humiliating defeat of the adversary. Although state power was execised only by males, Bidlisi mentions three women who, after losing their husbands, aussumed the reins of power in order to transfer it to their sons upon their adulthood.

Out of this, in the wikipedia article it only read until I corrected it: Sharaf ad-Din Bitlisi's 1597 Sharafnama mentions three Kurdish women assuming power in Kurdish principalities.

If THIS was not cherry picking, then what is?? --92.106.216.139 (talk) 22:53, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Besides, the roughly 58% percentage of FGM in Erbil is correct, and there are sources to it that Ferakp also deleted, see this article Female genital mutilation, from which article he wasn't able to delete the information, even though he tried. I could go on and on.--92.106.216.139 (talk) 23:00, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• I've no knowledge or particular interest in this area. I had noticed Ferakp before editing exclusively in the Kurdish/Turkish area. I only became involved because Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Houzan Mahmoud struck me somewhat suspect. Anyway, if he's truly resigned I suppose this discussion can be closed. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:10, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I bet that the user 92.106.216.139 is involved in meatpuppeting. I am 100% sure he is banned before because of his behavior and so fast response and just check the users he tagged, they are all pro-Turkish editors who I have warned about their WP:POV, WP:FAKE and WP:ORIGINAL edits. As I said, check his edits and the sources, they are clearly against WP rules. I have edited maybe thousands of times and it is normal that some are not happy because I found them black washing the article. Show one my edit and prove it that it is not allowed or wrong. I have explained them all using WP rules. Ferakp (talk) 23:49, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, I see that I have been notified. Ferakp has been involved in POV editing. I was patrolling pages marked as "Controversial" for vandalism, and I came across Ferakp. People have told him many times to not continue, but he just accused other editors of being pro-turkish, as he just did. I really don't have any bias on the subject, but it seems to me that Ferakp has been editing in an unhelpful way. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 11:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Topic ban for Ferakp

The conclusion of one of the last discussions was that this is getting close to a topic ban, and since then other veteran editors have reported his behaviour as WP:NOTHERE. This has been going on for too long, and he won't stop. I propose a topic ban for Ferakp. --92.106.216.139 (talk) 23:24, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

oppose From my experience, I would agree that Ferakp is not the easiest editor to deal with, however also from my experience, I have found that he is looking for neutrality and respects the ideas of discussion and compromise. At the end of the day, we had a few too many reverts (each) and then we found neutral ground, based on reliable sources and discussion. Yeah, I'm sure he has political feelings (as do many editors) and these feelings are reflected in his edits (same for most editors), but when treated with the respect and good faith than we all deserve, he was not disruptive and our discussions certainly resulted in an improved article. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Support Although I agree that Ferakp does try to have discussions and not be a troll, he has been disruptive. He has caused many editors to continuously edit the articles in question because of his POV editing. I think that a topic ban for a year or two would help the encyclopedia, and is what is needed for Ferakp. Even though he has stopped editing Misplaced Pages for now, It's probably a good idea to have this in place in case he decides to start editing. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 11:35, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Well, apparently Ferakp's resignation lasted all of 24 hours. I certainly have no opinion on whether he should be topic banned -- I don't know enough about his editing history, nor do I care to. I only became involved when I spotted this Afd, which didn't seem to me to be policy based and seemed more motivated by a battlefield mentality about any content related to mistreatment of women by Kurds. That's really why I waded in. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:19, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• I should also point -- to state the obvious -- that 92.106.216.139 and Ferakp have been embroiled in an editing dispute for some time: indeed Ferakp had tried to get the Kurdish women article page protected to stop 92.106.216.139's edits. So again while I don't know enough to pick sides, what we may have at this ANI is yet another installment in a dispute between two editors, and WP:Forum shopping across multiple pages in an attempt to lock in each one's preferred version of reality. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment You are all welcome to check my edit history word by word. Thousands of edits and only 8 disputes and in many of them I have reached consensus. You can clearly check all my disputes and you will realize that I never start any kind of "war" before I am 100% sure that my changes clearly removed or edited something which weren't true or against WP rules. I always use the talk page and explain my changes if another user is not happy with my changes. However, some users are not trying to reach consensus at all. I improved many 92.106.216.139 edits, I edited them to according to their sources even though it was clear that he was cherry picking. However, he didn't stop it, he still continues it. That's why I wanted administrator or admin to lock the article. @ThePlatypusofDoom:: If you think I am disruptive editor, prove it. Whether I get topic ban or permanent ban, I don't care because I am not editing anymore: Only fixing and adding sources and of course I am just trying to stop disruptive editors. Ferakp (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I think you are trying to do the right thing, but personally, I agree with 92.106.16.139. Kurdish women are treated terribly, and it is still a very major problem in the world today. It is very, very widespread, and the reason that a good 70% of the article is devoted to this is because of that. You shouldn't let this stop you from editing, but you may want to back off. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 19:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• I do think that this ANI should be closed. This is not to be the forum to resolve this, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Agreed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePlatypusofDoom (talk • contribs) 23:14, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Closing of this incident report

As Shawn in Montreal and I feel, this should be closed or moved to a different page. I propose a move or a close of this report. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 23:18, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Incivility problems in Talk:Third-party evidence for Apollo Moon landings

I have created this proposal to change the title of the article Third-party evidence for Apollo Moon landings, which is very clearly incorrect. My proposal has met very strong opposition from several users, who have engaged in uncivil behaviour. I have asked them in several occassions to change their behaviour, but they have continued behaving in the same way. I posted a list of the policies and guidelines they are breaking , but they ignored this as well.

This is a list of the editors involved and a summary of their misbehaviour:

• LouScheffer: I asked him to clarify his argument, but he ignored my request for three months. When he finally answered, I showed the weakness of his argument. After that he ignored me again.
• Bubba73: I asked him three times to clarify his argument, but he ignored my request. Rather than answering, he wrote several comments which are irrelevant or off-topic.
• VQuakr: He said he agrees with LouScheffer. I requested the same clarification I had previously requested from LouScheffer, but he ignored my request.
• Dr. K.: He accused me of disruptive editing by “Failure or refusal to ‘get the point’” after my requests for clarifications had been repeatedly ignored. He suggested that he and the other editors don’t need to follow those rules.

These are very experienced editors. It might be worth noting that all except Bubba73 have a history of complaints in their user pages for breaching Misplaced Pages regulations. In the case of VQuakr, the list is huge.

Elendaíl (talk) 00:33, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Reply I think that the talk page speaks for itself. Bubba73 01:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Additional comment One of the other named editors invited him to make a formal request for a move (WP:RM) - more than once, I think. Bubba73 01:10, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) Actually three times. first, second, third. Ironically, the OP got exactly the same advice as I gave him/her when, following our discussion, he went to editor assistance and thanked the editor who gave him the same advice as I did. Dr. K. 01:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Make that four times. VQuakr had actually beat me to the punch. He advised the OP first about requesting a move through WP:RM. Dr. K. 07:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
  • More On April 8 the editor came back, asking about his proposed name change from January. I asked "What do you want to rename it to?" Rather than simply state what he wanted to name it, he replied "I wrote my proposal above (16:50, 17 January 2016). I'm afraid that once again I fail to see the relation of what you say with my proposal. Also, I would appreciate it if you would take a few minutes to answer my questions above." wanting me to wade back through all of that mess to find his proposed name. I did that. He accuses me of not replying to him - I stopped because I think he is a troll. Bubba73 01:31, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
    • The OP is clearly an inexperienced editor with only 64 edits. The problem starts when, despite his inexperience, he seems quite adept at choosing to investigate and report four experienced editors to ANI rather than follow repeated good advice about using the simple process of WP:RM. Dr. K. 08:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• @Elendaíl: How do you imagine a discussion might be conducted when one editor has been wrestling with several others since 6 January 2016 regarding an unclear proposal at Talk:Third-party evidence for Apollo Moon landings#Proposal to rename the article? The fact that people disagree with them might cause some to find another article to work on—it is not uncivil to disagree, and it is not uncivil to comment in a forthright manner, particularly after three months. Not commenting is not uncivil. Johnuniq (talk) 01:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Disagreement with and lack of interest in pursuing your rather nebulous proposal is not incivility. No administrative action is requested or warranted for what is clearly a content dispute, where consensus is running against you. Acroterion (talk) 01:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Totally uninvolved and never will be. OP is engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND by the act of filing this report. IMO, this thread should be closed now by an admin with a clear directive to either file an WP:RM immediately, back away from the article or face a block for disruption. I have seen worse examples of WP:WIKILAWYERING and WP:IDHT, but not many. John from Idegon (talk) 01:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Notified of discussion here. I suggest that the participants here remember that Elendaíl is quite new; this may be their first time encountering editors that disagree with them and managing disagreement can be a challenging thing on Misplaced Pages. I see also that over at WP:EAR, @TransporterMan: suggested that they take behavioral concerns here; again knowing that Elendaíl it might be difficult for him or her to differentiate between behavior and content. I disagree with the assessment of Elendaíl as a troll; I think they are a good-faith editor that needs some guiding. Maybe a good candidate for adoption? @Worm That Turned: I generally associate you with mentorship. Any thoughts here? VQuakr (talk) 01:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Does Elendail believe that the Apollo landings did not happen? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:22, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I couldn't point to a diff that indicates that is the case. VQuakr (talk) 07:52, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I do not think that he has expressed that. Bubba73 15:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I am appalled. Bubba73, a user listed in the top 1000 contributors list of Misplaced Pages, has said that I am a troll. In an ANI about incivility! I would certainly expect him to know better than that. I request immediate administrator action. Elendaíl (talk) 19:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Bubba73 is a very civil editor with no complaints about his civility. You said so yourself: It might be worth noting that all except Bubba73 have a history of complaints in their user pages for breaching Misplaced Pages regulations. He just expressed his thoughts given your wikilawyering and failure to acknowledge the valid points of four experienced editors who were in good-faith trying to advise you since last January to request a move through WP:RM, advice which you blithely ignored multiple times. That he got a bit frustrated is completely understandable. I think that if there is any admin action needed here it has to be applied to your continuing disruption calling for unwarranted action against good faith editors for no reason. Dr. K. 20:13, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Elendail, I think he is a troll. Bubba said that they quit discussing because they thought you were a troll. Bubba was explaining why they stopped discussing. And they are entitled to their opinion. -- GB fan 01:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

That is why I quit. Some others continued the discussion. Bubba73 01:50, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Elendail also has a lovely post about being called a troll on ANI over at the Teahouse (link). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. Bubba73 22:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Bubba73: "I think he is a troll". "Uninvolved" editor: "Bubba did not call you a troll". Wow! I mean, seriously, WOW! You guys are amazing. You have greatly surpassed all the expectations I had when I started this. Thank you so much. Elendaíl (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal

Due to egregious WP:IDHT, hectoring, forum shopping and sundry other disputatious behaviour, I propose a six month topic ban for Elendaíl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) from articles relating to the moon landing hoax, broadly construed. Guy (Help!) 14:15, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support especially in light of the Teahouse thread. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support Per above. Editor has paranoia issues. --Tarage (talk) 18:21, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose at this time; WP:ROPE - editor seems to have indicated that they intend to stop the behavior per . Closing admin is invited to ignore this !vote if editor subsequently resumes disruption. VQuakr (talk) 19:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Whitewashing of Swami Premananda (guru) article

The article Swami Premananda (guru) has suffered from repeated vandalism and whitewashing attempts since its creation. I cleaned up the article and added it to my watchlist in 2013. Since then I have been reverting disruptive edits on the page. Most of the editors are unregistered but some have accounts. The editors try to remove any mention of his crime, or write that he was innocent and was wrongly convicted. These editors frequently use the same set of dubious sources:

• Justice For Premananda and other such sites/blogs.
• Articles published by Share International, a religious organisation.
• A particular book called "The DNA Detectives", which they claim is written by a "world's top genetics experts, Dr. Wilson J. Wall". They claim that he had personally handled the case. But I only found he has briefly written about it in his book "Forensic Science in Court", which has been added to the article. Other sources don't mention him.

More recently, editor Rishi Mano (talk · contribs) has been reverting my edits and adding self-promo material.

• Diff 1 - Reverted my edits.
• Diff 2 - Added claims from unreliable sources. He wrote, "Earlier in his life, In 1969 while he was addressing some 200 people who had gathered to listen, his body began to glow and an ochre-coloured robe suddenly seemed to descend onto him." Without any citation.
• Diff 3 - Inserted promotional edits like "Many volunteers and spiritual seekers live and provide their selfless service in the ashram. The ashram has centers in many countries including the UK, Switzerland, Belgium, France, Poland, Argentina, Ivory Coast, France, Italy, Mexico, Spain, USA, the Netherlands and Sri Lanka." Without any citations.
• On the talkpage, he replied to my comment about using blogs as sources by saying, "Again I find a book quoted, and any privately published book is not better than a blog."
• On the talkpage, he has also written, "Now a days we should not believe everything that media tells us".

Another editor Doughnutgirl (talk · contribs) has been engaging in similar edits since 2010. She exclusively edits only this article.

• Diff1 - Removed everything about DNA evidence.
• Diff2 - Added claims from the "The DNA Detectives" by Dr. Wilson J. Wall.
• Tried to hurriedly push through the Draft:Wilson J Wall but was rejected.

I formally request protection for the article from all unregistered editors and these two particular editors to be barred from editing this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenfyre (talk • contribs) 08:10, 12 April 2016‎ (UTC)

Dispute on editing Youth time article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello! Unfortunately I am obliged to report Jytdog who prevents updating information Youth time article, removing inaccurate information and replacing it with verifiable and productive content.

- current version diff contains inaccurate and at some point unsourced information, which is not structured.

The new version diff:

As you may see, the information has been divided into sections, almost every fact has been provided with an independent and reliable reference source such as Le Figaro (french newspaper), the official web-site of Public Diplomacy Council of Catalonia, The Huffington Post etc.

The above mentioned user repeatedly reverts all of the modifications back to an older version without providing any actual reason or any examples of promotional content, WIkipedia rules violation except for Proxying.

In my turn, I must say that I do not belong to this movement, I do not work there and I do not act on behalf of some banned editor (actually, I do not know who this person is) and of course I AM NOT PAID for updating information. Though I fully support the idea behind this movement, the updated information on this movement has been partially provided to me by one of the movement's ambassadors. My point is to provide wider auditory with true information corresponding to WIki community rules, whereas Jytdog exceeds his or her authority, his behaviour is unproductive as it does not allow to develop and improve existing content.

F aristocrat (talk) 09:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Youth_Time_redux. I recommend that this thread be closed. However, please note that this user is WP:PROXYING for a bunch of indeffed socks, as discussed in the COIN posting. Jytdog (talk) 09:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog (talk) As rules state: "Wikipedians in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned editor (sometimes called proxy editing or proxying) unless they are able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits". I am not acquainted with banned users. Moreover, as the rule states, I provide proof and reference, that the new information is verifiable and productive. F aristocrat (talk) 09:57, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Boomerang and block the nominator. Clearly part of this continuation of COI sockpuppetry on the article. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• FYI No WP:SPI filed? _Fortuna 13:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: Is at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Bojdufa. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Adequately protecting articles from the kind of Israel supporters who threaten to rape and kill

A number of requests for article protection were submitted yesterday. They were declined with what I think was questionable advice for the requesting editor, @Huldra:, to warn the IP. The various editors who receive death threats and threats of physical or sexual violence from Israel supporters should probably not be advised to contact their abusers, but that's another story. I have requested protection again here because in the WP:ARBPIA topic area inadequate protection has predictable consequences e.g. (threats suppressed). I'm posting at ANI in the hope it gets the attention it deserves so that at least some articles+editors receive better protection. In ARBPIA, the 30/500 rule is and will continue to be enforced, regardless of whether an article has extended confirmed protection. If the 30/500 rule is not enforced by the server, then it will be enforced by people spending time performing a task that can be more efficiently and effectively performed by a machine. Editors who enforce the 30/500 rule are exposed to the worst Misplaced Pages has to offer. The ARBCOM authorized 30/500 rule is going to be enforced in ARBPIA either way so please let the server deal with the crazies. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

If we don't allow legal threats, why do we not treat physical threats similarly? _Fortuna 10:17, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

They are treated similarly in terms of blocking despite their very profound differences. This something that perhaps Hulda is more likely to have an informed opinion about than me, having had discussions with the legal people I believe. Threats are normally interleaved with the usual ethno-nationalist POV pushing disruption that is common in ARBPIA for accounts/IPs that do not meet the 30/500 requirement. Admins do a good job blocking IPs and suppressing threats. But again, the server can already make that unnecessary via extended confirmed protection. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

For everyone else's ease of access, the pages in question are:

• Mobile, Alabama - which only connects to the issue in a single line (sister cities), but was previously protected for a year over this issue.
• Ariel University - which was previously protected for a year because of vandalism (which I get the impression has to do with this), and which has a notice on its talk page regarding ARBPIA3
• Talk:Hamat Gader - which has a notice at the top regarding ARBPIA3
• Talk:Canada Park - which has a notice at the top regarding ARBPIA3
• Talk:Two-state solution - which I've already protected, because that should've been protected the second ARBPIA was passed.

I was hesitant to protect them (and am still arguing with myself about shortening the Mobile AL one, or just putting a hidden note explaining ARBPIA3 between every single letter of the one line related to the conflict), and have italicized my reasons for protecting them. If someone shortens or undoes the protection, I'm not going to wheel war.

I was on the fence, and rather than post about how I sympathize, I figured it'd be better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. There is apparently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Extended_confirmed_protection_and_arbitration_enforcement that I haven't read yet but assume is relevant. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I think I've glanced it over before. An' holuh shi', wuz Ah realluh thuh one da applah tha' pertecshun ta "Two-state solution"? Ah'm ol fer cuttin' admins slack ol thuh tahm, b'cos we gaht laves 'n' stuff, bud'if tha' ball 'ad bin drop't inee 'arder it'd'a wip't aht thuh dinasores. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:08, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Southern American English sounds like a contradiction in terms _Fortuna 11:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The scary thing is the Bard's actors would've spoken something similar. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:40, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah... the Great Vowel Shift, of course? _Fortuna 12:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

This isn't an Israel supporter. It's Grawp. 172.56.36.137 (talk) 12:45, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The edits are indistinguishable from those of an racist ultra-nationalist Israel supporter. They are also characteristic of Grawp or a Grawp-like sock. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Seems to me like you, yourself are pretty racist.142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

If you want to believe that, go ahead. I don't care and it won't change anything. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:39, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not "our old friend", this is the Telstra, Australia-sock, which I first became aware of at AN/I, August/Sept., 2015. User:Drmies asked me to collect some of the IPs in order to see if he "qualified" for a WP:LTA-page. I did that here: User:Huldra/Telstra-socks. Besides Telstra, Australia-IPs, I believe the same user uses Optus, Australia-IPs, like here. And they typically stand for opinions which are to the right of the Israeli government; typically they say that places on the occupied West Bank are "in Israel", a view which is not supported by the Israeli government, only by the extreme right-wing Israel supporters. For a start: I believe Ariel (city), (on the occupied West Bank) and its University, and its "sister-cities", all have to be permanently protected: they have been favourite targets for years. Huldra (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I had not yet read ANI this afternoon when I took two of these RFPP reports, the two for the talk pages of Canada Park and Two-state solution. I increased Ian's regular semi-protection to extended-confirmed protection. I have not looked at the other three pages but I'll say right now that I don't believe the Mobile article qualifies for it. If someone wants to take the protection back down, I won't object. Katie 19:34, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Okay, I'll ask the obvious question: What does Mobile, Alabama have to do with Arab-Israeli conflict? Why would this level and kind of protection even apply to an Alabaman city? I can see there is edit-warring going on in the article but it is ridiculous to argue that Mobile, Alabama is an article that is concerned with the Arab-Israeli conflict and covered by 30/500. Liz 21:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Liz....because Mobile, Alabama is sister city with Ariel (city)...an Israeli settlement on the Israeli-occupied West Bank. Certain editors have tried for years to have it say that Ariel (city) is in "Israel". It is the same problem for Heredia, Costa Rica; also a sister city of Ariel. (Yeah, I know: it is crazy to protect a 140 K article just because of -one- sentence, but heck, what else its there to do?) Huldra (talk) 21:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I saw that Mobile had an Israeli sister city but that one note in a long article doesn't justify saying that the article involves the Arab-Israeli conflict. If there is edit-warring or vandalism going on, semi-protect the article. Same goes for Heredia, Costa Rica.

Given that invoking 30/500 usually results in a permanent state of protection that prevents any editing by IP accounts, I think we should be conservative when applying it, only when the articles/pages are clearly covered by the stated topic area mentioned by ArbCom or admins at AE. We can't have every edit-war over an sentence concerning Israel result in 30/500 protection when the article is clearly not about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Liz 21:56, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I thought that semi-protecting also stopped IP-editing? Huldra (talk) 22:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Observation: Eh...regardless of the edit-summary attached to the protection, I'm fairly sure it's actually just plain semi-protected. "12:39, 12 April 2016 Ian.thomson (talk | contribs) changed protection level for Mobile, Alabama (indefinite) (indefinite)". That, or the difference between semi-protection and extended-confirmed protection can't be seen from the logs (if so, that's something that should be fixed...) AddWittyNameHere (talk) 22:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, extended-confirmed protection is visible in the logs. The Mobile article is only semi-protected; look at the protection log for Talk:Canada Park and you'll see the difference. Katie 22:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Btw, I´m fine with having "only" semi-protection on most of these articles. Most bad "new" editors, *if* they can edit semi-protected pages, then they do not go for any articles. Instead they go for one of the editors who edits in the area, and who have their user-pages semi-protected (like both Sean.hoyland and myself, and virtually everyone else who is not considered pro-Israeli enough). Apparently it is even more fun, telling us how we will be murdered, than making edits like "Ariel is in Israel"..... Huldra (talk) 22:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You will never stop us. Ariel, Israel is a city you can never take! 49.188.4.238 (talk) 23:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Please block the above Optus, Australia-IP ASAP; thanks, Huldra (talk) 23:55, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Huldra, the account has been blocked. The difference I see between 30/500 and semi-protection is that I haven't seen an article with 30/500 protection had that protection lifted. It seems to be a permanent state. Theoretically, it doesn't need to be indefinite but in practice I don't see expiration dates. With most pages with semi-protection, it is only applied for a few days, a week or a month. It is not usually indefinite. Liz 01:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)