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Very suprised that people dont realise this guitarist used to be plain old John Martin From sussex!Ukbn2 09:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

My Dad is a friend of Juan's and claims that his spanishness is "as obvious as the day", something which I would have to agree with, whenever I have met him he seems like the real thing. What is your source for such claims? Can you please reference them or can someone confirm them, if not I will contact Juan and edit the page. Additionally, another website claims he was born in Malaga. Is this in fact correct? Finally, how does a box get put up above the page to indicate that this page is disputed and needs to cite references?

--212.44.32.134 09:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Juan Martin was born in Malaga, Spain. So say the Encyclopædia Britannica, the Quid and his own site: ]. A googlegroup page in which someone states the contrary is not sufficient to start disputing this fact, let alone replace it. You state that "There is a Brighton evening argus piece about this". First check that the date was not the first of April, then try to scan it. Then, and only then, could we even start to discuss your version of Juan Martin's history.

Unreferenced

I've tagged the article as {{unreferenced}}. Before going much farther in expanding or refining the article, it would be good to find references for the statements that are already made. The article, so far, is almost all original research. Expansion of the article will be easier and result in a better article if contributors are working from verifiable sources rather than memory. — Saxifrage ✎ 22:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Birthplace

"Juan Martín is a native of Andalucía" from www.juanmartin.com Yandman 07:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You say "this is citable information". Cite it then, don't just give a reference to the book. Yandman 07:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

John born in England...

Having done a google search and looked in google books, I can't find any mention of his English birth or his real name being John. Could Ukbn2 have some hidden agenda? Is his user name a code? Should we give him 24 hours to find those citations? Addhoc 11:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi - uk "bn2" - is my post code - thats why i write about Brighton a lot on wiki. addhoc - you have googled around about Juan Martin - i dont doubt this - but remember there were experts who wrote books about this 30 years ago, of which i am quoting from - hidden agendas about the nationality of a flamenco guitarist !!!lol Im simply making wikipedia more accurate - do i have to scan D E Pohrens book? There is no mention on Britannica regarding Juan Martin, though i will look in the local library tomorrow.Ukbn2 18:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is a "hidden agenda", however I do think UKBN2 is trying to be funny. The Brittanica says he was born in Malaga, as does www.juanmartin.com and the previous editor to this page. Yandman 12:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, by the way, does Cristóbal allude to crystal ball? Addhoc 12:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, this talk of agendas is silly. I am helping out report accurate information. Juan Martins website,does not say he was born in Spain. The information from esflamenco is simply incorrect. Being from the area where Juan martin lived before he left for Spain, it is pretty common knowledge, and D Pohren is the recognised expert in flamenco circles, whose book i have quoted from - why would D E Pohren make this up? Also - why do you think i would spend so much time on 1 flamenco guitarist - i do edit other articles.Ukbn2 18:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

More credibility regarding D E Pohrens 'bible' of flamenco -

"For Donn Pohren, an American who's spent the past 45 years in Spain writing about a flamenco world that has slowly given way to Americanized commercialism, it's a sign of corruption. He's the only non-Spaniard ever awarded the title of "flamencologist" by the closed circle of writers and academics who make up the "Catedra de Flamencologia." And his books, praised by such Spanish artists as guitarist Andrés Segovia and dancer Carmen Amaya, have become underground classics fueling a quiet affair between legions of flamenco aficionados around the world and this uniquely Iberian art form."

This man is THE most respected authority on Flamenco, and he states quite clearly that Juan Martin is a gifted NON spanish flamenco guitarist. THis is citable evidence. http://www.salon.com/people/feature/1999/10/02/pohren/index.html Ukbn2 18:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, the situation is as follows:

• His agent's website says "Juan Martín is a native of Andalucía", which obviously is in Spain.
• The book you mention is real enough , but you haven't demonstrated that it says he was born in England.
• Common knowledge counts for nothing in Misplaced Pages.
• Ok, so Donn Pohren is an American, which is confirmed by , why is this relevant?
• Unless you produce a verifiable citation, the dubious material is going to be removed tomorrow.

Addhoc 18:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

erm because D E Pohren is the most famous writer on Flamenco in spanish history - he has lived there 45 years and his writings have been recognised and praised by such artists as segovia - have you any idea how credible this information is? I am dumfounded that an expert in a particular field cannot be cited, this is ludicrous! naturally, you are an expert on 20th century flamenco guitarists i presume? If wikipedia cannot quote documented experts,then what can we quote? Does the internet become the only source of verifiable information? This is a terrible way to document history.Ukbn2 18:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

That argument would be an example of appeal to authority, one of the major fallacies (i.e., that Pohren is an expert doesn't mean we believe him automatically when there is claims to the contrary). We may say that Pohren states or claims in his book that Martín is non-Spanish, but since other sources say that he is Spanish, Misplaced Pages may not take sides and say one or the other according to our policy about taking a neutral point of view. — Saxifrage ✎ 19:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

ps - the bit "he is an american" EXACTLY! He emigrated and became so famous for his flamenco knowledge that the spanish regarded his writings as "the bible" of Flamenco writing. Just Like the then John Martin became Juan Martin on stage, and was accepted by the Spanish.Ukbn2 18:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, his agent's website says "Juan Martín is a native of Andalucía", which obviously is in Spain. You haven't commented on this, why could that be? Even if I was a world expert, in Misplaced Pages that would count for nothing. Also common knowledge counts for nothing in Misplaced Pages. I am not saying Donn Pohren made this up, I am saying you did. Given that you have already lied about the Juan Martin's website, which does say he was born in Andalucía, this is reasonable. Unless you produce a verifiable citation, the dubious material is going to be removed tomorrow. Addhoc 19:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that a verifiable citation doesn't have to be one that's easily accessible, so the book does count. However, to be a citation is has to include the page number where Pohren states that Martín is non-Spanish so that someone may verify the citation's accuracy without reading the entire book. — Saxifrage ✎ 19:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree. However in his case, he has clearly lied, for example about Juan Martin's website, which does say he was born in Andalucía. In this context, I would suggest removing the dubious content to this page, while we verify this information. Addhoc 20:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to assume he was just mistaken rather than duplicitous. As for the content, I don't care which version it remains at while we discuss this, just so long as discussion results in it being brought into line with the content policies in a reasonable amount of time. If you want to revert to the version before this information was included, that's fine—just don't get involved in an edit war over it as that'll distract us from doing useful work toward a solution. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Saxifrage, have a look at WP:BLP and WP:LIBEL. The version that is potentially libellous should be removed. Your lecture about an edit war is misplaced, we have both signed up to WP:1RR. Addhoc 08:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Ukbn2 has requested mediation. The issue is References. Geo. 20:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the request may have been premature as there was some misunderstanding on how referencing works. I will let the results of my providing process information develop a bit before I accept or reject mediation. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

My involvement was in response to his request at Harmonious editing club - talk page. Could I ask in what capacity you are offering to mediate, as you don't appear to be a member of the mediation-cabal. Addhoc 20:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I am a member, this is unofficial mediation. Geo. 20:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep, fine. I would confirm that I only became involved following his request at Harmonious editing club - talk page. He has clearly lied about the Juan Martín web site. In this context, I do not believe he has any credibility and consequently, I suggest the dubious material he has introduced should be moved onto this page and only be reintroduced following verification. Addhoc 20:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Refrain from inflammator statements such as "he lied". We have to assume good faith or risk the page devolving into a shouting match. I don't see clear evidence of dishonesty, just a bunch of confusion on how referencing and NPOV works and a bit of panic at not knowing how to deal with opposition. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Since it's informal, I'll accept mediation. More calm voices is a good thing. :) — Saxifrage ✎ 21:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

No Saxifrage, this a WP:BLP, where WP:LIBEL has relevance. Clearly UKBN2 lied on this page. That is an observation that does not constitute being uncivil or a personal attack. Nor are your comments relating to confusion very helpful. In this context the information he added to this article, which implies Juan Martín lied should be removed as potentially libellous. Note that WP:3RR does not apply to removing potentially libellous information from a WP:BLP. Thanks, Addhoc 08:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no clear evidence of lying on Ukbn2's part, and Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith is policy. If you can say what you need to say without accusing other editors of malfeasance, this is infinitely preferable. Unnecessary accusations of bad faith hurt the encyclopedia and make doing useful work harder, not easier. It's also unharmonious. — Saxifrage ✎ 22:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Addhoc is right in we should use the previous version of the page for the time being, pending further discussion and investigation. This means that although the information may be false (which I doubt), it will not be libellous. Yandman 09:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

There's also "Name:Juan Cristóbal Martín, Birth: 1948 Málaga" from www.esflamenco.com Yandman 09:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Addhoc 12:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

To avoid a flame war, i have decided to withdraw editing this article entirley. The statement "Clearly UKBN2 lied on this page" is an awful observation, i am still wondering why you think i would make this information up? Considering esflamenco and deflamenco have Juan Martins place of birth as Malaga,there is nothing i can do,and really dont want yo have troll like forum wars etc. It is so sad when internet citations take precedence of archivist historians like D E Pohren,who i have cited again and again. Barr contacting Juan Martin personally I feel it is futile to contribute anything more. As an example though, i ask people to look for instance to look at the allegations against the late elvis presleys manager who always said he was a southern "good ole boy", when in fact it was revealed years later he was a dutch national implicated in a murder. Interesting stuff eh? I bow out! Ukbn2 16:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Bye! Addhoc 17:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm on second thoughts i have changed my mind - i am going to edit this article, as i have more to offer to the article about the different type of compas and rasgeado techniques employed by Juam Martin. Ukbn2 09:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll give 24 hours to find citations for this material or it will be removed in accordance with WP:Verifiability "editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor". Addhoc 10:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

and i will put all the information back in regarding flamenco styles and technique. i am not asking permission to add stuff that is cited - stop trolling,please,i have refrained from putting the contencious information regarding Juan Martins ethnicity,until i can get it verified,you are obviously launching some crusade now. Why dont you research flamenco and perhaps contribute?Ukbn2 13:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at this quote from Jimbo . All material without exception has to be cited. You are not the first editor to partially cite material, suggest that other users shouldn't argue, but should find references, then accuse anyone who disagrees of trolling. Addhoc 14:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

you are stalking me virtually - asking me to cite sources for the spanish word "rasgeuado" and "la feria"?!! Learn Spanish? That smacks of trolling - and yes, when i wrongly tried to cite unreferenced material, you gave me "24 hours" to remove it - and i accept it cannot be cited until such a time in the above paragraph. And i notice you arent doing the same on the Vodafone article,the brighton article or other articles i contribute to. Stop trolling my edits,please.Ukbn2 16:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

If you look at my user page, I have listed the articles in which I have some involvement. Giving someone 24 hours to find references isn't unusual in Misplaced Pages. Addhoc 16:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

24 hours isn't unreasonable. It isn't necessary to dwell on the point, though. The article isn't going anywhere, so we don't need to be on "high alert" while discussing it. Someone will change the article, someone will disagree with something, we'll come here to have a chat and a cup of tea and discuss what's makes a better article and then do it.

On the point of translations, I don't think it shouldn't be necessary to cite one-word translations. If it was an entire quotation translated into English it would probably need a reference. I don't know of any policy to cite on that note, but that's my opinion and what I've observed by reading and working on articles about German subjects. — Saxifrage ✎ 17:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, removing potentially libelous material has to be done quickly, however this more general material doesn't matter so much. Also, I completely agree that individual Spanish words don't require citations. However, citations for these words have not been requested. The material that Ukbn2 has introduced is not substantially supported by citations, and accordingly could be removed. Addhoc 17:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Addhoc - thankyou for tripping yourself up - if you look at a previous edit of the article and the words "la feria"

"Following the path chosen by most Flamencos, he would play at weddings, social gatherings and at la feria. " revision as of 12:49 23 august

cn = citation needed - you are placing perhaps a skeptical eye upon words you dont understand because of my previous edits - which i have said i will not cite until i have cast iron evidence. Use your common sense,look at my other articles and take a deep breath. There is no conspiracyUkbn2 18:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't understand. That doesn't imply I was requesting a reference for a translation of "la feria". The citation required tag referred to the entire sentence. For the avoidance of doubt, the material you have introduced into this article is substantially not supported by references. Consequently, this material could be removed. Addhoc 18:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok mate - maintain your stance."Everybody is acting in bad faith except for me and my monkey" "If you are alone, you must be right." im gonna continue my other articles and really put something into this one.Ukbn2 18:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC) Ukbn2 18:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Yandman, Geo and Saxifrage have all acted with good faith. Addhoc 18:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

geo and sax,yes, are helping very well- only because i requested help. Previous to there intervention i was being called a liar who made things up and could not be trusted. Also your quote :-

"You don't understand. That doesn't imply I was requesting a reference for a translation of "la feria". The citation required tag referred to the entire sentence"

So i it is not beliveable that flamenco guitarists play at weddings and social gatherings in Spain?Do I need to cite that flamenco guitarists are often seen performing on stages in major cities around the world also? Or shall i just assume that you are,as i have previously stated,being over enthusiastic in your edits? Use your common sense maybe, think about what you are suggesting.Ukbn2 18:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

You still don't understand. In Misplaced Pages, common knowledge counts for nothing. All material, without exception, has to be supported by references. Material that is not supported by references can be removed. Have another look at WP:Verifiability. Addhoc 19:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Information without references

Have a look at this quote by Jimbo . In this context, I am removing the speculative information based on assertions of common knowledge by UKBN2. Addhoc 11:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

trolling

Please can the mediators here do something about this editing war? the terms "la feria" "rasgeuado" and flamenco guitarists playing at weddings and social gatherings have been removed for gods sake!!!!HELP!!!!Ukbn2 12:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, calm down, have a read of key note speech by Jimbo . I suggest we resolve this using the WP:BRD format. this, by the way, is the discussion part. Addhoc 12:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Biographies of Living Persons

The following is taken from the introduction to Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons.

Editors must take particular care when writing biographies of living persons, which require a degree of sensitivity, and which must adhere strictly to our content policies:

• Verifiability
• Neutral point of view
• No original research

We must get the article right. Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page.

Addhoc 12:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

so deleting the term "la feria" is proper?Ukbn2 12:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

All material included has to be relevant and verifiable. You have not provided a secondary reference that links trivia such as "la feria" is Spanish for "the fair" to the subject of this article. In this context, the deletion was justified. Could I suggest you read WP:V and WP:BLP before asking further questions... Addhoc 13:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Im not asking you any questions. You dont know anything about flamenco. trolling yes, but not flamenco Ukbn2 13:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no mention on any of paco de lucias biographies of him giving lessons to anybody in his career - as a lot of people know, but at least it is verifiable. I will remove the Paco Pena teaching quote within 24hrs unless somebody can quote citable evidence from Paco De Lucia for instance.Ukbn2 13:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability

UKBN2, you still don't understand. Have a look at WP:V. The basics are as follows:

Your comment that "zapateado is explained with the link" shows that you haven't grasped that all material has to be verifiable. In this case you are required to provide a reputable source that links "zapateado" to Juan Martín. Before making any further edits, I would suggest you read the most important procedures for this article, which are: WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:OR. Also you could have a look at WP:CITE and WP:RS. Thanks, Addhoc 14:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

ZAPATEADO is a flamenco term - its not juan performing it on the mentioned albums. Its the sound of the dancers heels "zapateado" "tap of the shoe" STOP TROLLINGUkbn2 14:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this time have a look at WP:V, the most important principle that you still haven't grasped is that "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth". This isn't about whether I am an expert or not. Nor is this about whether the information about zapateado is true or not. This is about you grasping the concept that articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources.

If you are still having trouble with this concept then perhaps the following saying could help "Nothing exists, as far as we're concerned, until someone tells us what someone else said. We do not see the world. We see the reports of reporters who saw the world."

Addhoc 15:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

zapateado has been published by Juan Martin. would you like a shovel for that big hole you are digging?Ukbn2 15:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Stop

I, along with just about everyone else, would be very grateful to both of you if you could stop your pointless argument. Addhoc was right in that UKBN2's edit concerning Juan Martin's history was libellous and needed removal. The way in which UKBN2 phrased this assertion, especially in his earlier edits, casts doubt on his seriousness at the time. This is a good reason for following UKBN2's actions very closely, as I and several other editors are. However, we must still assume good faith when UKBN2 edits Misplaced Pages, and his latest additions to the Juan Martin page are perfectly reasonable, and most do not need proof. If I were to write an article about Sir Jagger, I would not have to provide extensive proof for the assertion that he sings, nor the fact that he occasionally does so in stadiums, nor the fact that he has a tendency to strut around the stage whilst doing so. UKBN2 is obviously an expert in the field of Flamenco, and his edits seem perfectly reasonable, so there is no need for you, Addhoc, to use these heavy handed tactics. Do not forget that the Misplaced Pages guidelines you quote are all superceded by "Use Common Sense". I hope you can sort out your differences and start contributing productively to this encyclopædia. A very good evening to both of you. Yandman 15:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

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