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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Al-Ahbash article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Affiliated with al-Azhar?

Recently when web surfing, I found a few sources stating that al-Azhar had formally severed its affiliation with the al-Ahbash movement. I might search for them again when I get time, but has anybody else seen anything about this? MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Fatwas against and Syrian alliance

I have done alot of research and cannot find any of the "fatwas" against Ahbash. Nor can I find any evidence of Syrian Gov alliance being when Syria left Lebanon the Ahbash had no power in government and still rely on donations to this day. I also find it funny the article mentions Syrian alliance and later on says "neutral in Syrian conflict" despite pressure from both sides (again no proof of this).ProtectorOfHaq (talk) 00:05, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

With reference to your words "I have done alot of research and cannot find any of the "fatwas" against Ahbash. Nor can I find any evidence of Syrian Gov alliance...," one can find plenty of Fatwas against the Al-Ahbash (That's something else that the adherents / supporters of the Al-Ahbash ideology consider them as anti-Ahbash, Wahabis' fatawas and hearsay .etc) over the Internet as well as evidence of the Al-Ahbash being supported by the Syrian Government. The references are right there with-in the article referring to the Fatwas against the Al-Ahbahs, their alliance / support by Syria and more. Once again, I will urge you to read the Misplaced Pages Guidelines, policies and the Talk Archives of this very page. The things you are complaining about has already been discussed and re-discussed and the version you are vandalizing is the most closest Misplaced Pages NPOV compliant version possible. Thank you. McKhan 01:49, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2016

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Al-Ahbash. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

At the sources presented I was unable to read the articles without PAYING, which begs to question if the information is correct, let alone comes with a source to their own points.

Pierret, Thomas (2010). "Al-Ahbash". Basic Reference (Scotland, UK: Edinburgh Academics) 28: 217–229. doi:10.1017/S0020743800063145. Retrieved 27 April 2012.

Seddon, David (2004). A political and economic dictionary of the Middle East (1st ed.). Routledge. p. 22. ISBN 978-1857432121.

In the below citation Raphael talks about alleged connections with the Syrian Gov and then Syrian Intelligence but show NO Proof, just hearsay.

Raphaël Lefèvre (April 2014). "The Roots of Crisis in Northern Lebanon" (PDF). Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. p. 8. Retrieved 28 October 2014.

I think the editor should remove any info linked with such ideas as It is plain ignorant and wrong to paint the group with this picture when there is no proof whatsoever other than a dude in Oxford saying so. ProtectorOfHaq (talk) 01:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

ProtectorOfHaq (talk) 01:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Please, read Misplaced Pages Guidelines such as Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view for a reference. Thank you.

Just saw this and posting my response which I posted on ProtectorOfHaq's talk page.

The sources (i.e. Pierret, Thomas (2010). "Al-Ahbash". Basic Reference (Scotland, UK: Edinburgh Academics) 28: 217–229. doi:10.1017%2FS0020743800063145. Retrieved27 April 2012., Raphaël Lefèvre (April 2014). "The Roots of Crisis in Northern Lebanon" (PDF). Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. p. 8. Retrieved 28 October 2014., Dietrich Jung (18 September 2004). Jung, Dietrich, ed. The Middle East and Palestine: Global Politics and Regional Conflict. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 156.ISBN 9781403982124, Gary C. Gambill (December 2007). "Islamist Groups in Lebanon" (PDF).Middle East Review of International Affairs 11 (4): 44. Retrieved 12 April 2015., Nicholas Blanford (25 August 2006). Killing Mr Lebanon: The Assassination of Rafik Hariri and Its Impact on the Middle East. I.B.Tauris. p. 177.ISBN 9780857714053 and more) you are calling "bullshit" are not only verifiable but also from peer-reviewed academic journals and written by career academics and they help Misplaced Pages's NPOV standard a lot. Otherwise, hypothetically speaking, anybody who is the adherent of the Al-Ahbash ideology or Wahabi ideology or any other ideology will convert the Misplaced Pages pages into blog entries in which they wouldn't want to mention or see anything negative about their favorite ideology (or subject, topic, hero, favorite person .etc) at all but all the good things. I am afraid Misplaced Pages doesn't work that way as it is an encyclopedia but not a blog. I will strongly urge you to read the pertinent Misplaced Pages guidelines before editing on Misplaced Pages constructively. The version you are vandalizing and calling its sources "bullshit" is the closest Misplaced Pages's NPOV compliant version and is the fruit of countless discussions and re-discussions. Please, go through the Talk History of the Al-Ahbash. Let's not reinvent the wheel here. Thank you. McKhan 01:11, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

No intention of cross-posting.

Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view clearly states the following:

All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.

NPOV is a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages and of other Wikimedia projects. It is also one of Misplaced Pages's three core content policies; the other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Misplaced Pages articles, and, because they work in harmony, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another. Editors are strongly encouraged to familiarize themselves with all three.

This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.

Thank you. McKhan 01:33, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect Accusations of being Shia/Following nonSunni consensus REFUTED

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (The Association is not known as Al-Ahbash in anyway, rather it is a way for wahhabists to class the AICP as its own Islamic sect. Furthermore this is evident when there is a redirect on the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) to go to Al-Ahbash which makes no sense as I already said (and you can check AICP.ORG and you wont find AlAhbash anywhere) it is not a name we have given ourself rather its made up by people we warn against (Aka the wahhabis and their followers) The citations on the other page are not view-able (They are pay 2 read/rent) so it is unknown if the author of the wiki is being biased and selectively writing about them OR it is plain text with also, no proof. It seems like there are just alot of rumors. One of the biggest issues I have also noticed is being classed as Shia

"elements of Sunni and Shi'a theological doctrines with Sufi spiritualism by supporting the legitimacy of Imam Ali and his descendents while condemning Mu'awiyya, the caliph and governor of Damascus, and his son Yazid as "seditious" thus adopting Shi'ite tradition whereas setting apart from all other Sunni jurists."

Refutation: "Wahhabis claimed that Sheikh Abdullah curses ^Aishah and Mu^awiah and companions and referenced page 182 of the explanation of "at-Tahawiyah". We searched that page and found nothing of what they claimed whatsoever!

Rather we find in his book "Bughiat at-Talib" Sheikh Abdullah says in page 347: وقال في الكتاب ذاته ص/347 ما نصه:"و أما الآل فإن أريد بهم مطلق أتباع النبي الأتقياء، فتجب محبتهم لأنهم أحباب الله تبارك و تعالى بما لهم من القرب إليه بطاعته الكاملة، و إن أريد به أزواجه و أقرباؤه المؤمنون فوجوب محبتهم لما خصوا به من الفضل." اهـ

"Among the obligations of the heart is to love the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وءاله وصحبه وسلم) and his Kind Al, his Wives and his Companions due to their high honorable status" and he says about ^Aishah "Ummul-mu'mineen, Radiallahu ^Anha" and that she is the most knowledgeable woman and that she must be loved and respected.

And on page 375 of "al-Bughia" Sheikh said:

ص/375 ما نصه:"من معاصي اللسان سب أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم، قال الله تعالى:"و السابقون الأولون من المهاجرين و الأنصار و الذين اتبعوهم بإحسان رضي الله عنهم و رضوا عنه"، هؤلاء هم أولياء الصحابة و سب أحدهم أعظم إثما و اشد ذنبا من سب غيره" اهـ. 

Which means: "And from the sins of the tongue is to curse or cuss the companions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وءاله وصحبه وسلم) as Allah praised them in al-Qur'an: {..Radiallahu ^Anhum Wa Radu ^Anh}. And cussing one of them is greater and worse in sin than cussing others". And in another point he says "Cursing and cussing all the companions entirely, is considered as kufur".

As for Mu^awiah, What sheikh Abdullah said about him was the Hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وءاله وصحبه وسلم: which is: "ويح عمار تقتله الفئة الباغية" which means "Praised be Ammar (bin Yassir), he will be killed by the aggressors" and so Mu^awiah is considered an aggressor as the Prophet said in the hadith. Sheikh and his students don't say he is kafir or cuss him! And In his book "Sarihul-Bayan" Sheikh Abdullah mentioned the sayings of Imam Shafi^iy and imam Abul Hassan al-'Ashariy about Mu^awiah being wrong in fighting Imam ^Aliy based on the hadith of the Prophet. But wahhabis insist on permitting lies in order to diminish their opponent! but surely they have failed in that attempt."

Enforcing the idea regarding Mu^awiah, Imam Abul Hassan al-Ash^ari said: قال إمام أهل السنة أبو الحسن الأشعري رضي الله عنه: "إن مقاتلي علي ءاثمون لكنَّ ثلاثةً منهم مغفور لهم طلحة والزبير وعائشة رضي الله عنهم، أما البقيّة فيجوز أن يغفر الله لهم على قاعدة أهل السنة في جواز الغفران للمذنب ما لم يكفر". This means: "All those who fought Imam Aliy are sinful except for three that were forgiven: Talhah, az-Zubeir, and ^Aishah Radiallahu ^Anha. As for the rest it's possible that Allah would forgive them according to the rule of Ahlus-Sunnah that a sinful Muslim can be forgiven as long as he does not balspheme".

And who ever wants to say wrong about Abul Hassan al-Ash^ari can read the hadith of the Prophet: Al-Hakim related the Prophet, in praising them, said:

(هم مني وأنا منهم)

which means: << They follow my methodology, and I am pleased with their action. >>

In Surat al-Ma’idah, Ayah 54, Allah said:

(فسوف يأتي الله بقوم يحبهم ويحبونه)

which refers to a group of people guided by Allah, who love Allah, and Allah loves them... It was narrated, at the time this verse was revealed, the Prophet pointed at Abu Musa al-Ash^ariyy and said: "Those are His people"--an explicit reference to the tribe of the Asha^irah--to whom Imam Abul-Hasan al-Ash^ariyy belongs.

The idea of "Rejection of anthropomorphism" the wiki author claimed it is not compatible with the consensus of Sunni scholars, yet it is Imam Ali whom : Imam Abu Mansur al-Baghdadiyy related in his book, Al-Farqu Baynal-Firaq, that Imam ^Aliyy, the fourth of the caliphs, may Allah reward his deeds, said:

نقل الإمامُ أبو منصور البغدادىُّ في كتابه الفَرْقُ بينَ الفِرَقِ أن الإمامَ علىَّ بنَ أبِى طالب رضى الله عنه قال كان الله ولا مكان، وهو الآن على ما عليه كان

which means: << Allah existed eternally and there was no place, and He now is as He was. ?? (i.e without a place)

So the SUNNAH agrees with Rejection of anthropomorphism.

Imam Abu Mansur al-Baghdadiyy related that Imam ^Aliyy Ibn Abi Talib, the fourth caliph, said:

نَقَلَ الإمامُ أبو مَنْصورِ البغدادىُّ أنَّ الإمام علىّ بنَ أبى طالب رضى الله عنه قال إنَّ الله تَعَالى خَلَقَ العَرْشَ إظْهَارًا لِقُدْرَتِهِ وَلم يَتَّخِذُهُ مَكانًا لِذَاتِهِ

which means: <<Allah created the ^Arsh as an indication of His Power and did not take it as a place for Himself.>>

This also rejects the thought of the wahhabis who claim "God sits on the throne" So we so far established that Allah Existing without a place is of the Sunnah and we refuted the idea that "God sits on the throne" yet the author of the wiki claims, the Sheikh is following the Mu'tazila school of thought. What a joke this wiki is, total joke.

So much wrong accusations refuted yet AICP are called Shia following Mutazila ideolagy, dont forget the Mutazila believed their were two creators which is incorrect.

  ) --ProtectorOfHaq (talk) 05:31, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

You have lifted most of the above text from this forum

You have lifted most of the above text from this forum which is a known Al-Ahbash outfit along-with other web-sites run by the proponents of Al-Ahbash. It is Abdullah al-Harariy's teachings which the people behind Association of Islamic Charitable Projects follows which is a charitable upfront (i.e. storefront) of Al-Ahbash as rightly pointed out and highlighted by several of the authors. Thank you. McKhan 06:33, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes I have and it comes with proof (from the Sheikhs books). Im not looking to start a "war" but I refuted your claims. If you dont want to take the proofs because theyre from that website, then okay. But the ones about Rejection of anthropomorphism should be looked into as they support the Sunnah consensus of the Scholars and the Association does not need to prove itself to people rather it's #1 goal is to teach the Aqeedah, this is the same Aqeedah of AlAzhar AlShareef in Egypt and Zaytuna University in Tunis. The least you can do is look into this point. ProtectorOfHaq (talk) 07:07, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and not a party between the Al-Ahbash / AICP and Wahabis.

You have created an article Aicp by lifting the content quite selectively from the Al-Ahbash page which proves the fact that you are not here to seriously help Wikipeida but to propagate the viewpoints of Al-Ahbash also known as Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (whose acronym is AICP or Aicp).

I will urge you to please take your war with the Wahabis somewhere else. Misplaced Pages is not a party between the Al-Ahbash and the Wahabis. There is no need for refutation here on Misplaced Pages. Whatever has bee posted here hasn't been written by a single editor but collection of editors who have used the academic, verifiable, reputable and independent sources as per the Misplaced Pages guidelines. I regret that despite suggesting that you should read the Misplaced Pages guidelines, you have resorted to spamm the Talk Page with what the Al-Ahbash say about themselves. Should you be able to provide independent, academic, verifiable and reputable sources from the peer-reviewed journals like the editors have done then that would greatly help your agenda. Thank you. McKhan 06:15, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

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