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	Objections to evolution has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 3, 2008 Good article nominee Listed November 7, 2009 Peer review Reviewed April 8, 2010 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 9, 2010 Peer review Reviewed Current status: Good article

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To-do list for Objections to evolution: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2022-03-29 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Cleanup : Harv target problems, multiple target Sfns Expand : Other : *Consider other objections as possible sections, such as "evolution presupposes..." arguments (currently discussed briefly under "Evolution is unfalsifiable"). Discuss possible alternative section schemes, particularly to remedy ambiguity in "Objections to evolution's plausibility" and "Objections to evolution's possibility" oversections.

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Add to Plausability a subsection re science generally ?

I am wondering if the article should include mention that it's also part of a wider theme of disillusionment or distrust of science and scientists, from a combination of 'do not trust anyone anymore' or explanatory and cognitive hurdles. Figure I'd ask if folks think Plausability should get a subsection for General distrust of Science.

I've seen a number of articles mentioning and studying this science distrust phenomenon, such as Science and its skeptics or why many doubt science and Why Science is so hard to believe and Americans increasing distrust of science.

So -- make a new subsection ? RSVP. Markbassett (talk) 16:26, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Looks like this "theme" is restricted to Americans, so it's probably not notable enough for large mention in an article. Also, as far as I can tell, most of those articles don't discuss evolution, so again I find it difficult to understand why it deserves an entire section. Incidentally, two of them are the same essay printed in different magazines. Rwenonah (talk) 16:52, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Hmm - the whole Objections article is largely American, so while I could include South African attitudes to science, that just doesn't seem germane to this article. It seems more a question of if 'distrust Darwinists' is factually sub section of voiced opposition and whether that would be represented as subsectio of Plausibility.

Evolution being distrusted is part of the the larger science distrust -- it's not like they didn't think evolution was a topic of science trust concern, see NSF study (and NSF 2014 Indicators) and Pew, and the ASF/Sage study on Politicization of Science. I've also seen joint science-distrust basis mentioned as explanation for the joining of Climate and Evolution discussions and NCSE involvement. But commentaries on the studies seem to go mostly into bemoaning the fact or speculating over the WHY science is not understood or distrusted, rather than detailing how distrust in evolution is voiced. Markbassett (talk) 20:11, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Not seeing much comment here, and so for now I'm going to go with not including on the basis that the disillusionment with scientists is a contributing factor that either helps or motivates objections, but it is not an objection specifically about evolution and not add it to the mix. Markbassett (talk) 04:17, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Re-word title

I suggest that "Objections" be changed to "Criticisms" on ground of similar articles in Misplaced Pages.68.100.116.118 (talk) 02:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Among other reasons, not all of the objections raised are criticisms. Things like "I don't think evolution works because I don't want to understand it" or saying that "I don't think evolution works as the whole concepts offends my religious sensibilities" are not criticisms.--Mr Fink (talk) 02:37, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I think criticisms is the common wiki usage and either seems reasonable by me, but mildly prefer to keep the title as is since: The article wording seems a wash since it uses criticisms (e.g. lede is talking "criticisms and denials", and lower down we see status as theory having "Critics of evolution") about as much as it uses "objection", and it channels a lot of "claims" (fm Index to Creationist Claims) which is a third category. The ] seems a wash as google seems to have both at about the same order of magnitude. There is some conceptual difference where the meaning of criticism (evaluating or analyzing of evolution, especially finding fault) is different from objection (a reason for disagreeing or opposing; expression of disapproval; especially a law case specific point of procedure or law being violated) but again the article seems a mix so nothing really fits. Markbassett (talk) 21:01, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

January 2016

I am planning on editing this page to reflect a more neutral tone in it, as well as include new references to support each claim.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Julio Puentes (talk • contribs)

@Julio Puentes: post any change proposal here before changing the article so you can gain consensus. --McSly (talk) 02:14, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

The changes you have already made are not neutral to begin with.--Mr Fink (talk) 02:19, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

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An new Vatican website url has been located and added. BiologicalMe (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Unqualified citation for observed macroevolution

Under "Evidence - Lack of observation" section, there is a sentence that states:

"However, as biologists define macroevolution, both microevolution and macroevolution have been observed."

This sentence cites two references, but none of them states that macroevolution has been observed -- they describe microevolution speciation. Either a valid reference should be used to back up the claim "macroevolution have been observed" or this sentence should be removed.

69.75.54.130 (talk) 00:32, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Please read the part you quote and try to understand it. Especially the part as biologists define macroevolution and macroevolution means evolution at or above the species level. The references are valid. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:24, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. In order to avoid a future confusion by other readers, I have clarified the article by explicitly mentioning speciation as to what biologists consider macroevolution.

69.75.54.130 (talk) 18:08, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

edit to "Lack of observation" section

Rwenonah,

You undid the revision 734033265 and changed the following sentence:

• before: However, as biologists define macroevolution (i.e. speciation), both microevolution and macroevolution have been observed.
• after:   However, as biologists define macroevolution, both microevolution and macroevolution have been observed.

Can you elaborate what you mean by "not really true" please? How do you propose to make it sound more clear?

69.75.54.130 (talk) 22:54, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

This edit really said everything that needs to be said. --JBL (talk) 23:01, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

JBL, no it didn't. Are you claiming that biologists don't define speciation as macroevolution? My edit only added "(i.e. speciation)" to clarify what macroevolution is. How is that a battle over evolution?

69.75.54.130 (talk) 00:30, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Since neither Rwenonah nor anyone else can come up with a reasonable explanation, I have undone Rwenonah's undid.

69.75.54.130 (talk) 19:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

The explanation is: your editing is tendentious, and no one is going to humor your attempts to create rhetorical wiggle-room for an inane creationist argument. --JBL (talk) 21:02, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

In other words, other editors are subjecting you to WP:SHUN.--Mr Fink (talk) 22:21, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

And, there's clearly no consensus for the edits, time to move on. Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:33, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

@JBL, et al.

I asked you a simple question which you continue to dodge: are you or are you not claiming that biologists do NOT define speciation as macroevolution?

So, please explain why it is wrong to clarify that macroevolution defined by biologists means speciation.

69.75.54.130 (talk) 23:05, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

We have seen numerous previous editors with identical requests to easily understand your request for clarification is nothing more than an attempt to use tendentious hair-splitting as a Trojan Horse to create WP:weasel word smokescreens for creationist arguments, as was previous explained to you.--Mr Fink (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't know your past experience and you shouldn't expect a total stranger to know your past experience either.

However, isn't this page titled, "Objections to evolution"? Search for "creationism" or "creationist" on this page and you will find almost everywhere. So, I don't see why it is unacceptable to explain how "macroevolution" defined by creationists are different than the one defined by biologists. Even macroevolution wiki page explains this symantic issue very well. Considering that this symantic issue is the crux of the creationists' objection to evolution, it is very odd why you block the attempt to clarify the definition used by biologists.

Even the very sentence being edited starts with "However, as biologists define macroevolution", which would make no sense if it weren't trying to convey that the macroevolution defined by biologists are not the same as the one defined by creationists...

69.75.54.130 (talk) 23:51, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

The problem with your editing is that macroevolution is not synonymous with speciation. Speciation is generally a result of macroevolution but these two terms, while related, are not the same thing. See:Macro evolution and Speciation for further information. Bottom-line is, your addition is not technically correct and does not improve the article. Darwinian Ape 23:56, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

@Darwinian Ape,

I know they are not synonymous, which is why I used "i.e." (should I have used "e.g." instead?) If you have a better way to present the information, then please go ahead with your way of clarification.

As of now, nowhere in this article does it mention about the symantic issue (which defeats the whole purpose of the topic of the article.)

69.75.54.130 (talk) 00:26, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

To quote briefly from the WP article on macroevolution, "the process of speciation may fall within the purview of either, depending on the forces thought to drive it." Rwenonah (talk) 03:26, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Here is the relevant data: so far, 6 or 7 different people have taken the time to comment in this discussion; all have communicated in one way or another that they oppose your edits. At least one other person has reverted your edits when you made them. Your parallel efforts on macroevolution have met with a similar outcome. There is zero chance that continuing this argument is going to change this situation. Why don't you go edit the article on your local high school or something instead? --JBL (talk) 13:42, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

@Rwenonah,

Thank you for confirming my edit that macroevolution does indeed include speciation. Now that you've confirmed, I ask you the same thing that I asked Darwinian Ape. If you have a better way to present the information, then please go ahead with your way of clarification and edit the sentence.

As of now, nowhere in this article does it mention about the symantic issue (which defeats the whole purpose of the topic of the article.)

@JBL,

Here is the relevant data: so far 6 or 7 different people have taken the time to comment in this discussion; none of them understands why the edit is needed and had suggested a better way to edit. Your ad hominem attacks only further prove your non-neutral attitude, which disqualifies you as an impartial moderator.

69.75.54.130 (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

• I was asked to comment here by the IP editor as a 'neutral' party. So here's my comments:

Regarding the content: Speciation lies on the (highly nebulous) border between microevolution and macroevolution. It's as valid to say it's a part of one as it is to say it's a part of another. However, the distinction between micro- and macro- is an entirely artificial one, hence why there's no concrete definition. In practice, there's little difference, as there has never been an event where a member of one species gave birth to another species. It's all about small, incremental changes (even when one takes punctuated equilibrium into account). Then there's the issue of convergent evolution, the imprecise definition of 'species', natural chimeras and others. So it's really not useful to use speciation as a synonym, or even an example of macroevolution, because it's so easily argued that it's neither.

Regarding what to do with the page: This is actually really straightforward: Don't include the parenthetical example. The consensus from reading through this thread is quite clear. One editor with a clever argument cannot establish a consensus against the majority without demonstrating the invalidity of the vast majority's arguments, and presenting valid arguments themselves. Consensus goes with the preponderance of arguments. That hasn't been done here.

tl:dr: If some content is highly contentious, but improves the article, it should be included. If (as is the case here) some content is highly contentious but merely doesn't hurt the article, it should be left out. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 18:26, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants,

• Your statement that "It's all about small, incremental changes" is a hotly debated topic among scientists. There are many who do not support the idea that macroevolution can be reduced to microevolution (which you seem to be aware by the fact that you've mentioned punctuated equilibrium.) Here is one of the such papers. However, this is an off-topic and I'd rather not discuss it here.
• Your recommendation to omit the parenthetical example is appreciated. Nevertheless it does not address the underlying semantics issue, which is addressed in the macroevolution page, but ironically not here. This is the crux of the objections to evolution raised by creationists, which this page attempts to describe in numerous places throughout the page. How do you propose that we introduce to the readers about the semantics issue?

69.75.54.130 (talk) 19:03, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

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