Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:16, 10 September 2006

Well, any ideas?

I certainly never expected an administrator to respond to "repeated IP vandalism" by locking on the vandal's version. And having just faced a threat of blocking for trying to preserve the consensus version, I am wondering if there is any damned point to all of this. It simply points up a key flaw in the Misplaced Pages model: despite all that is said about the content being determined by consensus, what the software really rewards is a refusal to play by the rules. Anyone think there's any point anymore? Or do we just chalk this article up as a failure of Misplaced Pages? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

It's only semi-protected. Any established editor can make any appropriate changes. -Will Beback 19:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

... wow. Big blunder on my part. okay, um... just ignore everything I said above? -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC) (not feeling all that hot)

Not to worry. It's a good rant and you might be able to use it on some other occasion. -Will Beback 21:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

From what I can see, the entry on The_Hardy_Boys was also the target of the person waging the edit war, but they drew him (or her) into a discussion and they achieved consensus on retaining the external link. The anon agreed that the link could stay on the main page of each series- I'm not sure, then, why the Tom Swift entry is still being attacked.

Site that violates copyright

An editor removed this external link:

• Tom Swift fan fiction rewrites of some and some new stories

with the edit summary:

• remove link to site that violates copyright

Could the editor please explain how copyrights are violated at the site? It appears to be original fan fiction. -Will Beback 21:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

• In both series, Tom's father is named Thomas Swift, Sr., and is the chief executive of Swift Enterprises. Tom III is a descendant of the first and second Tom Swifts, and Tom IV's father is likely the second, having built Jr.-type rockets in his youth. Inside jokes, such as allusions to Tom Swift, Jr.'s Lake Carlopa, indicate that the fourth series's writers were at least passingly familiar with Tom Swift's earlier incarnations.
• In both series, Tom's father is named Thomas Swift, and is the chief executive of Swift Enterprises. Allusions to Tom Swift, Jr.'s Lake Carlopa, indicate that the fourth series' publisher was at least passingly familiar with Tom Swift's earlier incarnations.

An anon changed the text from the top version to the bottom. Why? -Will Beback 21:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Soon-To-Be-Deleted Note on Copyright, Links, and Deletions

I am the person responsible for the Tom Swift Lives fanfic site, and I thank Mr. Beback (who isn't me) and others for trying to make available a convenient link to it. The site explicitly credits the holder of copyright; and (as a "transformative work" identified as "parody") fully complies with statutory regulations and court precedent. Scott Dickerson

Hello to all "Tom Swift". I offer apology as I do not wish to aggrieve but comments not within applied channels on personal negative comments are deleted. Permit me to say that one should argue facts and not speak about personalities. This is very bad form. Matters respecting personal grievance with another are not for this column. Wossan Kau of Malaysia batanol

Year Links

I feel the links to the years (ex.1935) are valid and helpful to put things in perspective. As such, I think they should remain. After all, they certainly aren't hurting anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.236.54.99 (talk • contribs)

Could you please create a username to make it easier to communicate with you? FYI, communications from other users are appearing on your IP user talk pages, but your IP address changes so you are probably not reading their comments. For example, see User talk:4.236.54.52 --Slowmover 18:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Please see WP:CONTEXT to see why others may disagree. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, years appear so frequently in articles that the cumulative effect in 1 million plus articles is to place a significant burden on the WP servers. This would be worth it if the years in question actually pointed to something relevant to the article, but this is rarely the case. Cluttering the page with links that add no information about the current topic doesn't serve the reader, it just makes it harder to find links that do point to a meaningful association. Slowmover 15:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Larger-Scale Changes

Always controversial, and no denigration of previous efforts is intended. I've added some info and tried to give a better "flow" and some parallel formatting. I concur that the year links are unnecessary and more distracting than useful, though I haven't taken the time to de-link them. Someone might consider adding a few pix, especially to the Tom Jr. section; the Graham Kaye covers are classics. -Scott Dickerson

Cover Art Samples, etc.

Not sure why the cover sample for "Tom Swift and His Motor Cycle" was removed by someone, but these covers are not under copyright and are surely relevant. I'd urge one for each series.

Someone might like to give parallel character lists for the series lacking them. And I believe there is now some detail available on TSV.

Mr. Kau's comments above are well-taken. -Scott Dickerson

Unexplained Characterization of Edit

Of a full paragraph acknowledging Wossan Kau's comments on the appropriate tenor for this discussion page, he has chosen to remove all but one sentence (above), and has characterized the rest as a "diatribe." I find this confusing, as I presumed I was merely expressing agreement with his stated recommendation and noting that (considering his experiences re the "Tom Swift community," which were shared with me in some detail at the time, with appropriate documentation) his attitude was all the more praiseworthy. I also am confused by the discrepancy between the attitude expressed in his comments on the reason for his deletion (viewable in "history"), and the principles he enunciated not long ago on his blog-site. But rather than go back and forth on it, I'll contact you, Wossan, by your e-mail for some mutual clarification. I gather this sort of "working it out" is the preferred Wiki process.

Lest it be forgot, the original relevance of these matters to the discussion of the Tom Swift article was to challenge the editing practices of one individual, whose identity is well-known and much commented upon despite his attempts at self-concealment. I don't regard the justifications he has repeatedly given as adequate. My understanding is that Misplaced Pages is for information and usefulness. Issues of "who should really get the credit" are basically private disputes: what counts is making the information available. Any disagreement on that?

Separately from Mr. Kau's comments, I'll state what I presume is unobjectionable: that honest, signed, above-board discussion is preferable to anonymous, pseudonymous, or puppeted contributions. Like Mr. Kau, I provide my (real) name in connection with any and all my contributions to Wiki. I hope those who choose otherwise will permit a civil question: why?--67.101.86.15 02:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)Scott Dickerson

Why some recent changes?

Have we a Phyllis Newton fan amongst us? Okay--"and nothing more" was too much a personal opinion (and a bit snide). But I will ask for an explanation of the change to my characterization of "Miss Trent" in the TSII section. The point is that she is given essentially no personal characteristics other than "efficient," is the only Swift Enterprises recurring female employee, and has a very-50's stereotyped role. I'm not criticizing the series on that basis, just bidding those who seek out the article to consider in a bit of depth what a "boys series" of the era incorporates. (But I may be jumping to conclusions as to your rationale.)-Scott Dickerson --67.101.86.15 16:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment on article development

I'll see if I can track down the TASER and Wozniac cites: first is from my memory of a news article, second is "somewhere" in Google-land.

This is now a sterling article! Well done. The Toms would be proud. -Scott Dickerson --72.245.1.234 16:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit and addition suggested

I'd be bold, but here's something I am unequipped to do. Rather than having the MOTOR CYCLE cover twice, how about replacing the first one with another (AIR SHIP is neat)?

Also--how about a cover sample and character list for those series lacking same? Yes, even TSV. -Scott Dickerson --72.245.1.234 17:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, for one thing those covers are still under copyright - as are some of the covers that already appear in the article. You seem pretty eager for other people to do your work for you too! MookiesDad 18:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• I just noticed this comment, after I made the response down below. Thank you for pointing out the copyright issue. As you note, this hasn't prevented the posting of said covers--surely to the benefit of this article. Do you feel said covers should be removed? As to your last comment, you've made clear that you disapprove of my participation here for some reason, but I'm surely within my rights to suggest things that I myself am not in a position to do. Wiki is a collaborative process, as I understand it. Now: how 'bout we honor our friend from Malaysia and focus on the specifics of this article, its content, and its presentation to the public. -Scott Dickerson 67.101.111.81 17:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• • How about you stick to your Tom Swift fan fiction and leave the article to those who have researched the topic and don't just want to make vandalizing wholesale cosmetic changes to it? MookiesDad 19:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Discuss link deletion, please

I won't be a jerk and just revert. Please tell me why the link to a new juvenile series discussion group--which so far consists almost entirely of Tom Swift threads--is irrelevant. -Scott Dickerson --67.101.86.72 19:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The board in question is not specifically a Tom Swift board and therefore is not relevant to this entry.

Explanation of edits

Most are just for better "flow". I delinked all years (except the first for each titles list), as they promise greater specific relevance than they actually provide. Still recommend changing first Tom Swift cover pic.-Scott Dickerson 67.101.86.72 17:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I reverted this as there was no consensus reached (and I happen to think the year links are useful!) MookiesDad 20:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• All right. So let's discuss and reach a consensus. (1) I've stated my reasoning regarding the year links. What do you regard as their value? (2) Your reverting also swept away a lot of other things. Do you object to any/all of them? If so, why? (3) What's with calling my edits "vandalism"? So I'll understand where you're coming from.-Scott Dickerson 67.101.86.72 22:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The years links allow readers to put the stories in perspective with their historical milieu, and anyway, how are they hurting you? As far as I'm concerned, the sweeping deletions that you make to this page without any consensus ARE vandalism. This isn't your private site where you would be free to do as you please. As to anything that you posted that has gone missing (which you stated were "minor changes;years delinked;article link added-SD" - hardly "a lot" as you stated) since I reverted your vandalism, you can always add it again - but leave those years alone, dagnabbit! MookiesDad 18:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• I won't touch the year links pending some further discussion. I'd like to point out that, whereas consensus is desirable, it's not something that Wiki requires. And in fact, I'm not sure what you mean by it in this sort of case. Whose "consensus"? How is it to be determined? I'm rather new to Wiki, but I know that the stated Wiki "philosophy" includes "BE BOLD"--basically, make the changes and let others respond if they feel so inclined or object. Do you disagree with that interpretation of how Wiki works? To call it "vandalism" imputes bad motives without justification. Chiding me to remember that this isn't my "private site" is also flamey. I'm participating in the Wiki process openly, using my real name. Join me, woncha? -Scott Dickerson 67.101.111.81 15:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Being "BOLD" doesn't mean making wholesale deletions of the work of others. If you have something new to contribute, please do so. On the other hand, if all you want to do is massage the article so that it looks the way YOU want it, please don't - that's what personal web pages are for. MookiesDad 22:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• I understand your words,MD, and now I'd like to understand your point of view. The arrangement and flow of an article are a part of its ability to communicate--wouldn't you agree? Someone set it up a certain way; now someone is advancing some changes. If that's not within the Wiki paradigm, please give me a cite. Please do clarify what you are referring to by "wholesale deletions" (the year-link matter is understood and not a current question). What's been deleted? All I've done is put the title lists under the sections that discuss the series they refer to. What content has been deleted? Maybe it's just what I'm reading into your choice of words, but you seem to be taking this rather personally. I don't even know who you are, remember, and I haven't researched any other contributions you might have made to Wiki. This business of "this isn't your private site to play with" isn't useful to our discussion--I know it, I contend I'm not doing it, and it has a chiding tone that over-personalizes things. Can we discuss the utility of these particular changes, not whether I have the "right" to make them (which is a question for Wiki admin to determine)? At any rate, I do appreciate and acknowledge your willingness to discuss your concerns. My participation here is out of enthusiasm for the subject; I don't mean to come across as disparaging your own contribution. -Scott Dickerson 67.101.111.81 16:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
  • You keep going on about "flow", which I think is double-talk for "I want it to look my way and screw everyone else!". Why don't you try researching some new information instead of constantly cosmetically massaging the article? You have a "right" to make changes, I have the "right" to revert your vandalism and will do so every time you butcher up the article. MookiesDad 19:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
    • And for heaven's sake, stop presenting speculation and supposition as fact as in the "predecessors" section you keep trying to foist on the article! MookiesDad 19:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
      • And furthermore, if you want to be such a good Wikipedian, why don't you set up a Wiki account. Why are you afraid to have a discussion page under your name? Whether you know it or not, please be aware that you come across as extremely arrogant and condescending. You think you, and only you, know what's best. Get off your high horse! MookiesDad 21:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Where it stands

Perhaps I was naive to take seriously the call for "consensus." I've offered to discuss specifics, but I gather you're more interested in peripheral things--like my personality--than in issues relative to page content, MD. I'll only take the time to respond to questions regarding various changes, or objections that are more than "shut up and get lost." I choose to take this seriously, not as some sort of competition. At any rate, I'm in touch with administrators on these matters. Meanwhile, I guess we're going to waste time going back and forth until the page is blocked for editing. But it seems that's the process. Scott Dickerson Doxmyth 01:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Are you going to tell your mommy too? What a petulant little whining crybaby you are! WHy is it that you think you're the only one whose opinion should matter? I'm really beginning to dislike you intensely! MookiesDad 21:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Please point out where you were told to "shut up and get lost". I removed your vandalistic "predecessors" paragraph AGAIN because if is completely irrelevant. Your last post just proves my point on how arrogant and conceited you are. No wonder Ippolito threw you out of his group! MookiesDad 11:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop referring to that paragraph as "vandalism". Without making a judgment on whether it does or does not belong in this article, it is clearly an attempt to improve the article and it does not meet the Misplaced Pages definition of vandalism. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Doxmyth continues to insert a paragraph that is entirely speculative, without citations and, IMHO, is based entirely on personal opinion. He has also deleted titles from the Tom Sr. list. I do NOT believe these are good faith efforts. I DO believe this is a subtle form of vandalism. Doxmyth has no knowledge of the series and has contributed NOTHING other than to change the appearance of the article (not for the better IMHO) to his liking and insert personal opinion, speculation and supposition in place of fact. MookiesDad 12:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

What you have just told me, MookiesDad, confirms that you are acting inappropriately. Even if you were entirely correct that the paragraph you keep deleting was "based entirely on personal opinion", that would make it original research and poor content, not vandalism. Do you understand that? You can not just hurl accusations of "vandalism" because you disagree whether something is good content -- if the edits "do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit", to quote Misplaced Pages:Vandalism, they are not vandalism. Your decision to treat Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith as if it were an optional policy does not change the situation; you cannot simply say "I do NOT believe these are good faith efforts" and thus make them vandalism. Your personal attacks on Doxmyth, judging that he "has no knowledge of the series", are also prohibited; see Misplaced Pages:no personal attacks.

MookiesDad, cool off the personal attacks and back away from your conviction that anything that comes from Doxmyth must be in bad faith and bad content. Doxmyth, the material you added might in fact be considered original research, which is prohibited on Misplaced Pages. I think it's obvious that there's a similarity between Frank Reade and Tom Swift -- both inventors who were heroes of children's literature -- and that's enough for me to put Frank Reade in the "See also" section of the article. If you have an acceptable source which draws a connection between Frank Reade and Tom Swift (by "acceptable", generally anything which is professionally published will do) then it's not original research, and can be added into the article with citations. The both of you, stop edit warring. I gather the two of you have some sort of history with each other outside Misplaced Pages. Guess what -- that's outside Misplaced Pages. The first one to bring the fight here loses. And so does the second. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Please indicate which of my edits, available in History, deleted titles from the Tom Swift Sr. list. Thank you. -Scott Dickerson 67.101.111.81 15:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

01:30, 8 September 2006 Doxmyth (Talk | contribs) (Repair of unjustified deletions, unhelpful links-SD) was when you vandalized the list of TS Sr. books by deleting Tom Swift & His Motorcycle in your insane spree of self-righteousness. Just so you know, I consider your "Predecessors" paragraph to be entirely conjectural and therefore inappropriate for Wiki and will continue to remove it every time you try and put it back in. Plus I don't like you! MookiesDad 19:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Predecessors section

This continues to insert his "predecessors" section despite the fact that there is a) no connection whatsoever to Tom Swift, b) is entirely made up of conjecture, supposition, surmise and opinion which is directly contraindicated by all Wiki guidelines and c) is irrelevant. Additionally, he continues to promote his Tom Swift fan fiction site in the External Links section despite the fact that the site contains absolutely NO information on any of the various series. Furthermore Mr. Dickerson refuses to log in under his purported user name (Doxmyth) so that his "edits" can be tracked. IMHO this bad faith editing is a subtle form of vandalism and I ask Mr. Dickerson to cease and desist. MookiesDad 00:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

MookiesDad, you used a first-level header for your newly created section. If I assume good faith, I assume you made a mistake. If I refuse to assume good faith, as you refuse to assume it of Doxmyth, I assume that you violated policy deliberately and with malign intent. Which do you think I should do, and if I grant you an assumption of good faith why should I deny it to Doxmyth? Once again, stop the personal attacks, and stop using phrases such as "a subtle form of vandalism" which have no meaning in the context. This is a content dispute, not vandalism on either side. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Doxmyth continually violates every Wiki guideline as to NPOV and presenting fact, not opinion. He continues to insert his irrelevant "predecessors" section despite all attempts to reason with him. He continually links to his site that has absolutely no information about Tom Swift. Furthermore a mistake in header levels can hardly be equated with Doxmyth's continual reversions and link spamming. MookiesDad 01:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

On headers - I quote from Wiki guidlines "Headings are hierarchical, so you should start with == Header == and follow it with === Subheader ===, ==== Subsubheader ====, and so forth. The 'second-level' == Header == is overly large in some browsers, but that can be fixed for individual viewers with a style sheet more easily than a nonhierarchical article structure can be fixed (see help:User style)." Please note the word "should" is used not "must". Frankly I think using bold headers under the fainter but larger top level header makes the article harder to read. If you have any evidence that the way I set up the headers is a violation of any Wiki rule instead of your personal opinion, I'd sure like to see it. MookiesDad 02:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)