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Hungary C‑class Low‑importance

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12 November 2015. The result of the discussion was keep.

Norden1990, I welcome your counter-arguments here

@Norden1990: You have reverted, and as a reason you stated 'non-free image'. I have just put back the version that does not include the non-free image. However, in your revert you also undid the textual edits. Kindly refrain yourself from deleting, re-ordering or marginalising events. If you have disagreements, I would like to ask you to present your counter-arguments here on the Talk page before making any changes. Amin (talk) 17:44, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but you have uploaded an image with false license, which thus violated copyright. I just reverted your act of vandalism. --Norden1990 (talk) 18:28, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that you also reverted text-edits that had nothing to do with the unlicensed photograph. I am currently looking to find the image with a clear license that permits it on Misplaced Pages. The original video footage was filmed by Agence France-Presse, which is a public press agency of the French government, so I think my efforts will be fruitful. Amin (talk) 18:59, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

The AFP photo on the right is totally misleading. It gives the impression that Petra László tripped Mohsen. In reality it did not happen: http://freedomdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/momento-que-petra-laszlo-hizo-zancadilla-osama-abdul-mohsen-que-corria-con-hijo-pequeno-cuestas-cerca-frontera-hungara-1442397018320.jpg. She is standing on her left leg - which is too far to kick him - when he starts to loose balance.She was found not guilty of this. However no objection to the left one.--Ltbuni (talk) 21:46, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

A photo is a photo. If you believe she did not tackel Mohsen, then you should not be afraid of any photos of the incident. If you believe the photo suggest anything that counters your political agenda, than perhaps it is time to the accept reality of the incident, instead of trying to censor photos from Misplaced Pages. Amin (talk) 22:00, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

No one denies here that she kicked kids.As I wrote "no objection to the left one" But she did NOT kick Mohsen. It is a FACT. Why would that be censorship? Giving false impression of a person is libellous. The text is covering both the fact of the incident, both the different narratives. --Ltbuni (talk) 09:50, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but Misplaced Pages do not allow to use only non-commercial images, please read Commons:Licensing. Otherwise please avoid personal attacks and speculations about my political views. For instance, I was not curious, why this topic is so important for you, a Westernized immigrant from Iran. --Norden1990 (talk) 22:35, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

I will go trough the Commons link that you provided. Regarding to why this is important to me, I would like to ask you the same. I randomly came by this article and found it to be very biased. When I went trough the history of the page, I noted that people, (including you) wanted the page deleted, or marginalised the events to be unimportant, almost as if you are protecting Petra Laszlo. I oppose dogma in general. #TheTruthWillSetYouFree Amin (talk) 22:56, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think this event is marginal and unimportant (for instance, we have no article about those migrant who were massacred by Libyan soldiers etc.), but I accepted the community's decision. However there is need to create a balanced article with opinions from all parties. Misplaced Pages is not the place for Two Minutes Hate against a camerawoman. I oppose dogma too, whether it anti-immigrant or liberal. --Norden1990 (talk) 12:01, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Heti Válasz/in fact

1. Why is it relevant, that it is a Hungarian CONSERVATIVE weekly? What does it mean in this context? Shall we insert "LIBERAL media something claims, that she tripped Mohsen" as well? BTW, it is overlink now, 'cause clicking on the Heti Válasz, its own article pops up. So I can't find any reason to insert this specific word.

2. "In fact" is important, because one the one hand there was an allegation, on the other hand we have a fact. I don'feel it "overkill" - it just put things in order. --Ltbuni (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

1. In this occasion it is relevant because it adds context that might influence their conclusion. If a thinktank concludes that Palestinians are not oppressed at all, is not worth mentioning that the think tank in question is a conservative Jewish think tank that fiercely supports Zionism?

2. The term "in fact" is unnecessary and overkill. Do you think t hat for every verdict or conclusion on Misplaced Pages the terms 'in fact' is added? No. Furthermore, not everyone agrees that Laszlo did not trip Mohsen. I want to remind you about this photo on the right.

I will await any counter-argument that you might have, before I put 'conservative' back into the article.

Amin (talk) 01:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

I would not put the word "conservative" there, as these labels are a bit obscure and oversimplifying (what does "conservative" means exactly and who labeled that newspaper as conservative?). Amin's example seems misleading to me, since even in that case we could only add that the think tank is regarded by source X (could be itself) as Y. I might be a bit overcautious, though. Anyway, my view is that we should stick with the (more solid) facts, and a newspaper being conservative (whatever it means) seems a bit vague to me, while it is a solid fact that they wrote such a claim. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 15:45, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

So your argument is that the term 'conservative' is 'obscure' and 'oversimplifying' ? Maybe to you. Here is link to Wiktionary, hope that clarifies. I think it's well established that this weekly magazine is 'conservative' in any sense of the word. Amin (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

First, Wiki products are not considered proper sources here, second, we should also avoid original research, so it is not that important if that newspaper looks conservative to you. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 21:20, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

You are drifting off topic. The point is: Heti Válasz's conservative leanings are relevant to the context. If you are not sure what 'conservative' means, use any means to find out the definition. Amin (Talk) 22:30, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

"might influence their conclusion" - or might not. No suggestions! Facts! Ok? Again: shall we add "liberal" to other media which claimed that she tripped? Or reference to authors nationality/religion/migrant background etc every time? From the angle most of the photos were taken, only one thing could not be identified: how far Petra Laszlo was standing from Mohsen. I linked another one: she was pretty far. BTW, the official investigation - after analysing ALL of the photos - also proved that she did not trip. Even Osama started to debate with the policeman, not with PL - he knew that he lost balance because the policeman let him go. --Ltbuni (talk) 10:33, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

@Ltbuni: Every major news outlet here concludes that Mohsen did not trip due to the policemen but due to Laszlo's foot. However, you want to highlight this conservative weekly magazine. Why is that? The magazine happens to have close links to right wing populist party Fidesz. Yet you still claim that the fact that this magazine is 'conservative' is not relevant? I have put the word back where it belongs. Alternatively, I propose leaving the line out altogether. Amin (Talk) 03:24, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

"The magazine happens to have close links to right wing populist party Fidesz" -in reality it is highly critical of the Fidesz party, some of the editors popularized the vote against the Fidesz in the last referendum.... :)--Ltbuni (talk) 10:47, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Labels, like "conservative", "populist", etc., express opinions (trying to influence the reader towards a certain point of view) and as such they should not be stated as facts, cf. WP:NPOV. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 21:42, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Vandalism by IP's 37.76.x.x

Two IP addresses are editing this article maliciously.
For what it's worth, both IP's start with 37.76.x.x, and both ping to Budapest, Hungary.

I hereby invite the IP addresses to take part in discussion on the Talk page here.
Amin (Talk) 22:21, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Tripping

Seriously? International media can not be wrong? http://dzrhnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/head057.jpg --Ltbuni (talk) 19:07, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

No one said that.

Here on Misplaced Pages, we provide information based on reliable sources (Please see WP:RS). The incident in this article has been covered by large amounts of reliable sources. If you think those sources are wrong, it is not fair practice to remove that information from Misplaced Pages.

I welcome discussion, but I'd like to ask you to refrain from reverting contributions that are well referenced. Amin (Talk) 19:19, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Actually You SAID that.I gave You above the Reuters (How could she trip him that far, with her left leg...http://rcnews.hu/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/lpetra.jpg?) I gave You official documents (Hungarian Prosecution). This article is about a living person, please stop smearing her: You accuse her of a crime, she did not commit. Why would not be these reliable sources? "making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered". I don't find Your article reliable, nor Neutral ... What is more, I can't understand, why on Earth You removed Osama from the lead - he was the most famous "victim".--Ltbuni (talk) 19:55, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

I find your English hard to follow. But if I understand correctly, you do not trust Reuters? That is another discussion.

Also, you said "You accuse her of a crime". This isn't true, I personally do not accuse. I just state information as it is reported by other sources, as we all are supposed to do here on Misplaced Pages.

I have no problem with keeping Mohsen in the lead. But you do seem to have a problem having the fact that she was recorded kicking two teenage refugees, in the lead. Both are significant in this incident, and both should be in the lead. Amin (Talk) 20:05, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok, my keyboard played havoc, but now! In simple English:

"I have no problem with keeping Mohsen in the lead" - Actually You were the one, who kept deleting him, by reverting my edit... You focus in the lead only on the kicking of migrants. You did not do the slightest effort to insert Osama in the lead.You also deleted that small tiny little fact, that they wanted to enter Hungary ILLEGALY.

" You accuse her of a crime". I just state information" - Biggest LOL ever... I will send these to other editors. You really made my day!!!!!! First, I just stated information as well, inserting "illegally". Then You said: she tripped him. I said and proved (with the Photos of the Reuters) she did not trip him. I think, Your sources are not reliable/not neutral - I copied the VERY FIRST SENTENCE OF THE "Reliable source" rule of the Misplaced Pages. This is NOT met by most of the international media. I found media bias regarding the Migration Crisis. Nice example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sv3oXGLNVY

So, I find it repulsive, when we say that, she tripped him, when the Hungarian Judiciary system came to the conclusion that she did not. So, she has an OFFICIAL document that she did not do that, but You say that she did, because of the CNN/others.

Randomly chosen pics were used to smear her - no oned cared about the truth: what happened before etc. I cited Reuters as a RELIABLE source, and inserted its photos, TAKEN BY ANOTHER ANGLE/VIEWPOINT which clearly prove SHE COULD NOT TRIP HIM. So, we can NOT state in the lead, that she was recorded, because it was impossible. Instead of "allegedly", we can use: X claims, or she seemed to be doing or sg..

FINALLY: YOU insist on inserting the kicking of the two kids in the lead? No problem. But the NAME of the article is TRIPPING incident, and not "Kicking and Tripping". What is more, most of Your sources also have the case of Osama in mind, when they speak about this incident, and not the kicking of kids.--Ltbuni (talk) 20:44, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

We have to go with reliable sources. Ltbuni, if you have reliable sources, then present them here before making further contentious edits. This isn't the place for political tirades - if that's what you're interested in, there are plenty of other fora on the internet for you. -Thucydides411 (talk) 00:02, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I have already added at least 3 in the article, and on the talk page... (REuters picture, I linked another 2 Hungarian Journals, Indictment)... What is more, I succesfully questionned the reliablility of the sources of the opponent (media bias!!). More on this later: his sources were out-of-date (!), no further investigation/developments were mentioned in them (for example, that Osama was fired from his job can not be found on the BBC, CNN etc - but the fact, that she was indicted, was covered in the international media, click on the links http://24.hu/kozelet/2016/09/07/tele-van-a-nemzetkozi-sajto-a-laszlo-petra-elleni-vademelessel/).

http://www.origo.hu/itthon/20150924-a-heti-valasz-virtualis-lincselesrol-ir-laszlo-petra-roszke-menekultek.html

http://valasz.hu/vilag/nem-gancsolt-laszlo-petra-erdemtelenul-dicsoult-meg-a-szir-fociedzo-115186

The photos, proving that she did not trip him, are in the later, but You can see them here: http://dzrhnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/head057.jpg http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150912/images/12fortrip1_214203.jpg etc. She is too far...

Why aren't these reliable sources, and why the CCN - which totally omits the facts that shad light on the other side of the story (he was fired, she did not trip) - is? --Ltbuni (talk) 11:00, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

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