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Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 27 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 25 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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(Initiated 94 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 74 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 64 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 55 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 48 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC_Science-Based_Medicine

(Initiated 33 days ago on 7 December 2024) slowed for a while Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

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(Initiated 30 days ago on 11 December 2024) Participation mostly slowed, should have an independent close. Happily888 (talk) 10:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

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Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

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Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 107 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

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(Initiated 73 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 64 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 44 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Request for re-close of an old RfC (and closure of a disruptive RfC)

I would like to request a review of the closure of this RfC regarding the page Paul Singer (businessman). It was discussed with the closer here.

The previous RfC for this same issue (12/10/15) can be found here where consensus was established six months prior to the RfC in question. Between the two RfCs, the closer had created a number of discussions (possibly in violation of WP:FORUMSHOP) here: . These discussions failed to garner much attention and mostly reinforced the 12/10/15 consensus.

It must be noted that the RfC in question is rather old (29/04/16) and editors protested the closure since it was closed by the same editor who opened both the RfC itself and all other discussions, and was not necessarily reflective of consensus which does appear to reinforce that set out in the 12/10/15 RfC.

The improper close of the RfC would normally not be an issue, however, yet another RfC has opened, claiming that the last discussion was "inconclusive" and we must therefore have another discussion.

I would argue that this has all been incredibly disruptive considering the huge number of editors involved (36) in the prior 8 discussions from a 16/07/14 RfC to the 29/04/16 RfC is plenty of discussion for something which editors have considered relatively uncontroversial - 23 have been in favour of the current consensus and 6 against, with 7 somewhere in between. Furthermore, consensus has often not been respected in the rare points of calm between discussion, with some of the "6 against" editors making against-consensus edits and reversions.

This is a messy situation, but to conclude, I would like to request the evaluation of the close here and the closure of the current RfC, considering the arguements made by other editors at Talk:Paul Singer (businessman)#RfC is Nonsense. Thanks. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 19:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The issue is bifurcated in the prior RfCs. There was a limited consensus that a company could be called a "vulture fund" but no consensus that a person should be described as a "vulture capitalist" in the lead of a BLP. My own position has always been that specific pejorative terms should only be used as opinions ascribed to the persons holding the opinions, and that use of pejoratives about individuals should very rarely be allowed at all. To that end, I suggest that reversing prior closes is inapt, and the claims made that the prior RfCs support calling a living person a "vulture" are incorrect. The company can have cites of opinions that it is a "vulture fund" cited and used as opinions, but the use of that pejorative as a statement of fact about a living person falls under WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. The current RfC has 6 editors specifically noting that the use of the pejorative in the lead about a person is wrong, 1 says the person is absolutely a "vulture capitalist", 1 asserts that every RfC supports calling the person a "vulture" and one says we should not have any more RfCs - that the issue is settled and we should call the living person a "vulture capitalist" in the lead on that basis. I rather that the current 6 to 3 opposition to use of the term in the lead indicates a substantial disagreement with the assertions made here, and the request that a close be overturned out of process. Collect (talk) 21:08, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

There has been no RfC to discuss whether someone should be called a vulture. I myself have said in past discussions that doing so, especially in WP's voice, would be contrary to what this encyclopaedia is about. Please do not mis-represent my views - it's things like that which have made these constant ongoing RfCs so toxic. My view is that Singer is most notable (WP:DUE) for running a vulture fund - and there are indeed countless sources (WP:RS) which confirm this and thus this fact should be made clear in the lede. Claiming that mentioning his company in an article equates to WP calling someone a vulture is nonsense and not a new arguement - this is the same line those same editors took over and over again in these discussions to no avail. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 21:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Note that I specify the issue at hand is with regard to using the pejorative with regard to the single living person in the lead. A number of sources have branded him a "vulture capitalist" as distinct from his role at EMC, which has been called a vulture fund.. The two catenated uses of the pejorative are different here - ne is with regard to how some have categorized the fund, the other as a personal pejorative in the lead about the person. Do you see that distinction? Especially when the single sentence uses the term "vulture" twice? Collect (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

You also failed to mention 2 more editors who had been in favour of using the term vulture fund in the lede but refused to partake in this particular discussion since they have made it clear that there have already been to many. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Again - the word "vulture" is used twice now in a single sentence in the lead - once with regard to opinions held about the fund (for which the prior RfC found the use of the opinion as opinion about the fund was allowable), and the second, the problematic one, with regard to the use of a pejorative about a living person in the lead of the BLP. Collect (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I am the creator of the most recent RfC. Frankly SegataSanshiro1 forced this RfC to happen in the first place by refusing to engage in talk page discussion on the vulture point. I would like to request that anyone participating in this discussion carefully read Misplaced Pages:Status quo stonewalling, and then refer directly to each of SegataSanshiro1's actions leading up to this RfC, and his actions in this one as well. Whatever SegataSanshiro may personally believe, a slur in a lead is Always A Very Big Deal, and not something to be brushed under the rug. As WP:Biographies of living people says, "we must get it right." It seems clear to me that several parties want to freeze an ongoing discussion at a point they find satisfying. Yvarta (talk) 21:51, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I have been involved in these ongoing discussions for quite some time now. As I've stated before, using a pejorative to describe an individual on a BLP is unacceptable, especially in the lead. That being said, the previous RfC was closed once discussion went stale. There were ample opportunities and there was more than enough time to provide arguments. Once users agreed upon a version, which limited use of the term "vulture", the user who closed the RfC made the edits in question but was reverted and the term was included an additional three times.

SegataSanshiro1's antics on Singer's page has gotten out of control and his motive on the page is clear. Now that consensus on the newest RfC is shifting highly in favor of removing the slur from the lead, SegataSanshiro1 is grasping at straws to get the previous RfC reviewed. If SegataSanshiro1 had an issue with how the previous RfC was closed, why didn't he follow through with an secondary discussion after this one went stagnant? After realizing consensus is shifting, not in his favor, he wants to call this new productive RfC "disruptive". Also, after the last RfC was closed, an admin came in and suggested a new RfC so do not throw out WP:FORUMSHOPPING accusations. Meatsgains (talk) 02:39, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Meatsgains, consensus is not shifting as you cannot establish consensus in a discussion which half of the editors can't even take seriously. You have been at the heart of this whole drama. Every time there was an RfC or discussion and consensus was established to use the term, you actively went about making against-consensus edits and other highly disruptive behaviour (which myself and other editors have called you out on time and time again) such as misrepresenting the results of other discussions, claiming sources weren't reliable when they were and even making up terminology like "distressed securities funds" to avoid using actual terminology. You are the only editor who has been involved in every single one of these discussions - very possessive behaviour all in all and along with the other things, you should have been sanctioned and barred from editing on that page.

Still, you continue to misrepresent what happened. There were five editors (myself included) who have said that this RfC is daft. If that were not the case, I wouldn't have opened this discussion on the noticeboard. I'm not going to let you make me lose it again, so please stop referring to me - I want absolutely nothing to do with you, and I know I shouldn't be addressing editors directly, but I really want to make that absolutely clear. Something hypothetical you might want to think about though:

After you've rolled the dice so many times trying to prevent WP:RS from an article and failed miserably, let's say that now after 8 or so attempts at getting your way you finally do. How seriously do you think other editors would take that consensus? Would they simply carry on doing as they wished to the page regardless as you have? Would they simply call another RfC in three months time and pretend the others never happened as you have? I very much doubt I'll stick around after this because I'm sick of this page, but I have a feeling you will, and if you do and you carry on acting as you have, you will be doing this for years. Please don't answer me. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 03:09, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I have weighed in on this on multiple occasions and will do my best to promptly summarize my opinion on the topic. The original dispute over the use of the term vulture has been over the derogatory nature of the term on vulture fund’s page. Subsequent discussions have taken place regarding the general use of the term, however the scope of the debate later concentrated on the term’s use in a BLP, specifically Paul Singer’s page. Some editors, whom I will not name, act as if they wp:own the article and have done everything in their power to keep vulture fund and vulture capitalist in the article. Some users have actually made the argument that "vulture" is not derogatory whatsoever (one even argued that it should be taken as a compliment. No reasonable and neutral arbitrator could disagree with the fact that “vulture fund” is a slur, invented by people who are deeply opposed to their entirely legal investments. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 17:05, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Reverted 1 edit by Collect (talk): You're hardly the person to close this RfC... is a splendid example of grotesque snark. I did not "close the RfC" and that snark is ill-suited for rational discussion. In addition, I left in the "vulture" opinion about EMC, and note that the lead is supposed to be in summary style. I am concerned that this sort of snark is poisonous to any discussion, and ask that any editor who feels such personal attacks should be used should get the aitch away from here. Collect (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Collect, it's quite understandable that a number of editors are very much on edge considering this has been discussed to death and the conduct of a couple of editors in particular. I think what Nomoskedasticity meant by that remark is that you were making edits about something which was being discussed... Were you not one of those supporting an RfC after all?

From my own personal perspective, I think mentioning his main business area is running a culture fund, then including other references to him specifically in some sort of criticism section would be ideal. That and removing references to philanthropy from the lede as per WP:UNDUE. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: first of all I wish to state my astonishment at not being pinged when I was directly involved with one of the RfCs called into question. SegataSanshiro1's guerilla antics are indeed widespread and grave. I do not care about user behaviour at this stage, however, merely the state of Singer's biography. Said RfC was indeed improperly closed by myself, after which I requested admin intervention to reopen it (or closed by an uninvolved user - note I did so per WP:BOLD and because a determination was indeed agreed upon). This request was speedily rejected by KrakatoaKatie together with its corresponding ANI post, so I think it's safe to assume there is no interest in rekindling old fires. Attempts at mediation about this issue also failed. Regarding consensus, I counted at least 7 new voices in the current discussion, all offering interesting new insights (DGG, Collect, Elinruby, FuriouslySerene, Snow_Rise, Chris Hallquist, and Yvarta); there is strong indication at least some parties are willing to compromise. Some are under the impression consensus is a simple vote tally. I call into question this vehement ownership of the Paul Singer article. Every time any editor makes a serious attempt at a copy edit (no matter how minor), a concerted effort by the same bunch of editors reverses all possible changes. Just look at the edit history. Serious and pragmatic comments aimed at stemming this dreadlock are conveniently brushed aside, such as DGG's - "It's appropriate to use it in the article, since there is good sourcing, but it is not appropriate to use it in the lede. Ledes should be relatively neutral". If civil discussion cannot come about and admin action is required, so be it, but it does set a sad precedent. We had originally copy edited the lede back in October, trimming the use of "vulture" down to a single mention. This was of course then reverted maniacally even though discussion had concluded in that precise path. I don't see why a reasonable review of each instance of the word's use cannot take place. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 22:59, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Focus, this wasn't intended to be "guerilla antics" - we had actually discussed a re-close prior to this and you were involved, together with a number of other editors who I did not ping since I figured they would not want to be dragged into this again - I take it you're a page watcher anyway and I mentioned this discussion on the talk page. I also never had a problem with you being WP:BOLD and closing the discussion (in fact if I recall correctly, me and other editors were all for it), what myself and other editors had a problem with was the closing remarks, in particular "the RfC question was not unequivocally answered" when in reality it had, for the nth time that it is appropriate to use this particular word in this particular article - that's beyond discussion at this point. To this day, I agree with the path of compromise we embarked on, what I did not agree with was the sheer amount of forums this was taken to and the manner in which the discussion was closed. To be honest, that close made me question your good faith and took away any desire on my part to be collaborative.

The issue with these discussions is that they're never clear, we're never discussing on a point by point basis since one or two editors (should be fairly obvious who) take these discussions as an attempt to remove all mention of the terminology, digging in their heels until we're back in 2014 again discussing whether we should censor it entirely (again, always the same editors). All the while, creating serious NPOV issues by removing statements backed up by RS and adding in things which are UNDUE in an attempt to whitewash. If that stops, then I'm sure normal discussion could ensue and general anger levels could be drastically reduced along with the tedium. I have already said that I'm of the opinion that "vulture capitalist" should be discussed, but that's hardly going to happen if we still have editors claiming a vulture fund is not a thing, and the very presence of the term (what Singer is most notable for, if I may add) equates to Misplaced Pages calling a living person a vulture. That's not new, that's not productive and you're as aware of that as I am. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 23:46, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

• It was a middle of the road close. . There is a distinction between someone being personally a vulture, which implies that he acts in that manner in all his activities or is of that personality type, and running a fund that shares some similar characteristics and goes by the common name of vulture fund. We cannot avoid using the full term, because even those sources that endorse the profession use it as a matter of course. But we can try to avodi personalizing things that don't need personalizing, especially things that some people are likely to consider highly negative. DGG ( talk ) 03:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

And to the point - any BLP which stresses the use of "vulture" seventeen times is likely to be perceivable as making a point in itself. I just do not understand the concept that name-calling is something Misplaced Pages should actively pursue, and that editors who even remove a single use from the lead are somehow evil here. Argh. Collect (talk) 12:46, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't appear 17 times. I only see 6 mentions in the article itself and one of them was actually about an antisemitic cartoon - the rest are mentions in references. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 12:49, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

That's INCREDIBLY misleading. Most of those are references, hence more reason to include it. Of the 6 ACTUAL uses, none of them are in WP's voice. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 14:29, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

@SegataSanshiro1: You keep claiming that "Singer is most notable for" his "vulture fund". This is your own opinion. Do a google news search and tell us how many pages you have to dig through before coming across a page that uses the slur? This is a false assumption, which you have consistently done throughout this dispute. Meatsgains (talk) 17:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Stop pinging me. This isn't my own opinion and vulture fund is not a slur, it's the name of a type of fund that buys debt at discount prices and attempts to sue for 100% payment. As much as you pretend it isn't, you should remember this since you were involved in multiple discussions where you pretended that there was consensus that it was a slur when there wasn't - you were called out on it multiple times: . You also made a no-consensus page move from vulture fund to "distressed securities fund" despite there being no sources to validate such naming and in clear violation of WP:COMMONNAME - you should also remember this since there were two discussions, both on the talk page and at WP:W2W which undid that rather stealthy move and established rather firmly that vulture funds are indeed a thing and that is indeed what they are called, while Singer's EMC is one of the most prolific. Why have you consistently misrepresented information and lied to other editors? There's plenty more examples where you have been called out on doing this, want me to give more? Meatsgains, you are the only editor (along with Comatmebro, actually) who has been involved in every discussion to do with Singer, vulture funds and Elliott Management Corporation and consistently used some very dodgy tactics to get your way, ranging from ignoring consensus and making edits regardless to protecting all these pages like a hawk (or vulture, more appropriately?) and claiming sources aren't reliable based on your own opinions. I'm still shocked you're still around and you haven't been sanctioned. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

"This isn't my own opinion and vulture fund is not a slur" - Yes it is and yes it is. Also, do not dilute this discussion with attacking me. Meatsgains (talk) 20:15, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, DGG; that's a fair representation of my basic thoughts as well. As I just posted on the Singer talk page, we're trying to discuss the use of "vulture" as a descriptor of a human being. "Vulture" is as such a charged word in the sense that we're liable to annex this valued meaning to a word that is used in the context of a business endeavour. Handling a vulture fund is not the same as BEING a vulture. I am utterly amazed people fail to see that. The previous close was precisely that, a "middle of the road close". The "vulture fund" practices are thoroughly discussed throughout the article in the context of what quality sources have to say about the matter. Using the term through a personal angle by making a de facto generalisation in an article's lede is another story, and I believe we were making some progress back in October in this regard. I would very much like to see us return to that stage and come up with a neutral and balanced solution. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 21:17, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Agree that handling a vulture fund does not equate to being a vulture - that's the main flawed premise that has been holding this back. I still disagree that the close was "middle of the road", since using vulture terminology does not violate NPOV (the question raised in the RfC) since it is WP:DUE - only a tiny, tiny number of people have said that all reference to vultures should be gone from the article. The Samsung affair and other criticism (such as "vulture capitalist") needs to go in a criticism section rather than the lede - Singer has received enough criticism from multiple sources to warrant one. Vulture fund, on the other hand, should remain firmly in the lede - that's what he's known for and what a large chunk of the article is about. I know you have argued that he has other investments, but that's akin to leaving out the Iraq war in Tony Blair's page. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 22:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Yet again you are wildly, amazingly off topic. There is already an RfC discussing this issue, in case you forgot, and a talk page to discuss general improvements. This discussion, SegataSanshiro, you started to determine if the RfC creations are inappropriate. As you seem to have forgotten, I would like to remind you that you reverted my lead change on the grounds that I needed to first discuss, and now you are trying to shut that very discussion down - that, or apparently force it to stagnate by repeating the same arguments while ignoring the arguments of others. As far as I am concerned, you specifically continue to stonewall and disrupt a natural consensus building process. You are either nearing either an epiphany (i.e. that this is not a battle you are trying to win), or nearing a topic ban. Yvarta (talk) 23:45, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Not me specifically. There have been five editors (including me) who have questioned the validity of this RfC. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Hopefully I haven’t given the impression I think those other four are guilty of actively stonewalling. If so, I apologize for being thoughtless and rude. Yvarta (talk) 18:30, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I am not opposed to having an administrator re-close a previous RFC if the stated consensus was incorrect (I was the one who suggested coming to AN on the Singer talk page as SegatSanshiro continues to question it), just for the sake of clarity and any subsequent discussions. I do not support closing the current RFC though. I don't see it as disruptive as opinion is clearly divided and the issue is contentious, the previous RfC was over 4 months ago and the closing and consensus is disputed, so getting new editors involved to seek consensus should be a good thing (I only joined this discussion thanks to this most recent RfC). As for my opinion about the underlying issue, I've already posted to the RfC and it may not be relevant here, but I believe that mainstream reliable sources do not refer to Singer as a "vulture." He is called a hedge fund manager by these sources. Therefore the term vulture should only be used when it is ascribed to a specific person or entity (i.e., his critics). My reading of the current RfC and previous ones is that most editors agree with that position. FuriouslySerene (talk) 17:30, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I have never edited this article and am in this because the RfC bot asked me to give my opinion. The person who started the RfC however has repeatedly told me I am off-topic when I try to explain the BLP policy. As best I can tell however the person's argument is that the appellation is inappropriate because Singer is a living person, and they appear to be ready to repeat this argument indefinitely. I would also like to mention that while I personally believe that "vulture capitalist" is a specialized bit of vocabulary that is not particularly pejorative, the current wording does not use it in wikipedia's voice either, which many of the comments on this seem to assume. It says he has been called a vulture capitalist and provides no less than nine sources for the statement. I believe we should remove the weasel wording and explicitly quote one or more people. I would agree with the idea expressed at one point of balancing out concerns about due weight, assuming that is what they are, by adding other details of his business dealings. However as far as I can tell there are no such details; Singer seems to be a specialist in this type of transaction, and to have been for decades. Elinruby (talk) 20:07, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Explaining BLP policy is not off topic - however, long accusations of COI (without basis) and facts focused on Singer's details are very off topic to this particular RfC, as I've pointed out that many businessmen have similar, nigh identical press coverage concerning the "vulture" phrase. If you would like to start another RfC on a different nuance or topic, you are welcomed to. Yvarta (talk) 14:41, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Heh. The heart of my point is that Singer is a public figure and therefore under WP:PUBLICFIGURE it matters very much whether the statement is true. As for my COI concerns, well, normally we don't comment on editors but your actions do suggest one in my opinion, yes. You are very concerned, astonishingly concerned, with the PR of this billionaire, shrug. I didn't actually start with that assumption, mind; I just told you it was ok to be a paid editor if you declared yourself as such. But you say you are not, so. AGF. You *still* never ever answer any other editors questions, and dismiss them as irrelevant unless they support your desired outcome. Elinruby (talk) 12:39, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - Anyone look at the nominator's (i.e. Yvarta's) edit history? Yvarta, this looks like it was not your first account. Who were you editing as prior to this account? NickCT (talk) 14:30, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Feel free to ask any questions about my experience on my talk page/email. My editing history relates to personal details of my life, and so I haven't shared that here/in the RfC. Yvarta (talk) 14:36, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - This RfC makes for a dramatic read. My perception of things, after also skimming the older RfCs linked about halfway through, is that the prior RfCs were imperfectly framed, and as a result conversations were bogged down by arguments over whether Singer himself was a vulture, not whether vulture should be a descriptor in any lead at all. The RfC certainly has broader implications than one biography, as the overall precedent on Misplaced Pages most definitely favors avoiding such descriptors in bio leads. Has anyone else been able to find a biography or corporation with an animal slur used in the intro? I tried with several creative search phrases, and have so far utterly failed. This RfC is far from perfect as well, but I do applaud its attempt to focus the issue away from Singer. Most constructive so far, in my opinion, is that the argument that excluding vulture from the lead equals censorship has been debunked several times. Leads are certainly not required to include every detail of a criticism section, and per prior arguments, any concept that could be carried across by "vulture" could also be carried across with an alternate explanation.

Note to whoever closes this RfC: However long this discussion needs to continue, I would like to note that there is obviously not a clear consensus in favor of keeping vulture in the lead, even though the reverts apparently leading to this discussion were founded entirely on the argument that prior RfCs had reached consensus. As such, I would like to note that all three of those reverts have been proven to have been without basis, even if they were done in good faith. A number of contributors, several of obvious neutrality and experience, have agreed that a slur of denigration is inappropriate in a lead when applied to a person or company, especially since both the criticism and the neologism can be fully explained with neutral and more conservative words. As such, the argument that there is a violation of the neutral tone mandated by WP:BLPSTYLE is at the very least plausible, however this consensus concludes itself. Until that time, however, the assessment that biography leads must be treated with extra delicacy is absolutely correct, and I agree with Yvarta's bold action to remove "vulture" when he/she did, just like I would have agreed with a decision to remove "rat" or "loan shark" or "pig." Basically, until something is settled, there is currently no consensus', and I believe "vulture" should be again removed until consensus is reached and the barn is built.Bbmusicman (talk) 00:24, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Here are examples of why I answered as I did, if anyone is interested:

• Raymond "Shrimp Boy" Chow
• Mobutu_Sese_Seko
• Manuel Noriega
• List of people named in the Panama Papers
• MS-13

My point is that when derogatory information *is true* then we are not required to pretend it's not there.

• NPR story

- btw, for a dispassionate take on what a vulture capitalist actually is. I think people should read vulture fund and vulture capitalist -- nothing there about animals. Hope that helps. Elinruby (talk) 00:36, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

I highly encourage you to take some good examples to the RfC, where contributors can see them (this discussion isn't linked on that talk page anymore, after archiving). I'm a bit confused by your examples, though? Shrimp isn't very deragatory, except perhaps to a very short and insecure person, and "dictator" is actually a relatively neutral, especially compared to synonyms such as "tyrant" or "monster" or "fiend." Other phrases, like "mass-murderer," also have negative connotation, but they are clinical and exact, without cartoonish connotation making the phrases more loaded than necessary. Perhaps other examples? Yvarta (talk) 22:41, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

• Observations: (1) SegataSanshiro1, who opened this AN thread and who has written more than double the amount of text of the article than any other editor , is Argentinian (as noted on his userpage) and has a very strong POV and agenda about the article, since Singer's most controversial debt-funds are Argentinian. (2) In my opinion FoCuSandLeArN should not have closed the previous WP:RfC (nor should he have made the edit presumed to be "consensus" -- at the very least, another editor should have made any edits springing from the RfC), since he started the RfC and has also been involved in the contentious debate(s). One can withdraw an RfC one has started, but one cannot close it. Only an uninvolved editor can formally close an RfC. See WP:Requests for comment#Ending RfCs. (3) That said, SegataSanshiro1 has opened this AN thread in a very non-neutral, POV manner, and as Meatsgains commented above, SegataSanshiro1 had no problem with FoCuSandLeArN's 5-month-old close until now. (4) What seems to need to happen is for an uninvolved administrator to look at and close the current RfC that is now on the talk page awaiting closure. (5) I believe Collect, a neutral and highly experienced editor, has encapsulated the issue well in his three comments above. Softlavender (talk) 03:04, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

• {{Do not archive until}} added. Please remove the {{Do not archive until}} tag after the review is closed. (I am adding this because RfC closure reviews frequently have been archived prematurely without being resolved.) Cunard (talk) 06:24, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Anonywiki

• The section "notification of that administrator" has not been edited by the appellant to include a diff as it says it should, and indeed EdJohnston's talk page doesn't seem to have received a notification, but Ed did comment here so I do not think this small omission has flawed the outcome in any way
• In reply to Anonywiki, you can find the log of the sanction here: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/Log#Genetically modified organisms. It is also where this declined appeal will be logged.
• In reply to BMK, I think that the wording of the procedure indicates that the six month delay for a second appeal would start when the appeal was made (Nov-27th), not closed (Dec-5th), but it's a matter of days so it's probably relatively trivial. I hope an appeal in six months won't be hastily declined for a matter of days. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Anonywiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Anonywiki (talk) 15:39, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Topic ban from the subject of GMOs, imposed at

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Anonywiki, logged at

log of sanctions (according to EdJohnston, I can't find it.)

Administrator imposing the sanction

EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Anonywiki

This is the by far most bizarre sanction I have ever received on Misplaced Pages.

The original text read that commentators were "pointing out" that Jill Stein's comments contradicted the scientific consensus. The "pointing out" was changed by me to "claiming". In the discussion I added the analogy that if Huffington Post writers are writing that Putin is trying to rebuild the Soviet Union we don't say commentators are "pointing out" that Putin is trying to rebuild the Soviet Union.

In the end some other editor changed the verb to "writing that", which has the equivalent point, marking an improvement to the accuracy of the article first initiated by me and a mistake in moderation by EdJohnston. I totally agreed with this edit, it was similar to my own, the "pointing out" was changed to "writing that" because we do not have a point of view about this opinion.

In my opinion EdJohnston has not understood the argument and is pushing his moderation powers around. In my opinion he has acted in an outrageous manner and I hope he is sanctioned himself.

I agreed with the new more correct wording but because EdJohnston did not like my opinions he found that he would ban me from the subject of GMOs for one year.

The reason that in one edit I removed the Huffington Post links was because of the incorrect wording. I had zero problem with it after that. Anonywiki (talk) 15:39, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

The problem with Anonywiki's editing about GMOs was discussed in detail in the Arbitration Enforcement request. The complete set of diffs was presented there. Two other admins supported issuing a topic ban. Anonywiki speaks as though his own position on GMOs was obviously correct, writing that "Hobbyists and dilettantes should refrain from making edits on such articles that have specific meanings and contexts that are clearly lost on them." He does not seem to be aware that an RfC was closed on 7 July 2016 by a panel of three administrators that expresses the Misplaced Pages consensus on the topic of GMOs. The consensus was found to be Proposal 1 of that RfC. EdJohnston (talk) 16:45, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Neutrality

I was the editor who originally filed the complaint against Anonywiki. His/her appeal should be denied for the reasons set forth by EdJohnston, and because Anonywiki presents no substantial reason to lift the topic ban. Neutrality 00:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Anonywiki

• I see no legitimate reason put forward by the OP for the sanction to be overturned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:26, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

• BTW, assuming that this appeal is declined, I assume that the clock starts ticking on the six months before Anonywiki can appeal the sanction at that time, and is not measured from the original placement of the sanction. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:36, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

• Agree with BMK. Miniapolis 23:06, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
• I see no reason presented for lifting the topic ban. Decline. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:32, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
• Decline. This appeal clearly doesn't address the totality of the issues presented at AE, and I have no confidence in lifting a topic ban when the editor under sanction doesn't understand why their editing was problematic. ~ Rob₁₃ 22:13, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
• Decline - Editor makes the same arguments made at the original AE, and is clearly attempting to unilaterally change consensus. I see no merit to the claim that EdJohnston overstepped their authority as an admin. Recommend that the six-month clock start over when this appeal is closed, and any appeals prior to that date should be summarily closed on that technicality. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 18:38, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Anonywiki

• There is clear and active consensus to decline the appeal. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Possibly compromised account

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• WikiCats (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Recent behavior of WikiCats (see deleted edits too) suggests that it might be compromised. Would appreciate if an admin (or admins) could investigate. Thanks, FASTILY 08:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Blocked. I'm going offline now for a while: I'm happy with anyone else taking further/different action. DrKay (talk) 08:32, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Considering the long absence, and that the edits they're making are similar to those made over 10 years ago, my money would be on the account not being compromised. -- zzuuzz 08:54, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• I don't see any evidence of compromise either. The two things they have created (and which have been deleted), Parochialism in Sydney and Category:Catholic Church offices, have have been deleted before after being initially created by the same account - a hacker wouldn't be able to see their deleted contributions and wouldn't know they'd previously created them, would they? Also, there is evidence of long breaks before too - not as long as this 3-year gap, but we have only 2 edits between between December 2006 and January 2008, a gap between September 2008 and May 2010 with only two edits, and a gap of nearly 2 years between September 2011 and June 2013 with no edits. As per DrKay's comment, I have unblocked - and will keep an eye on edits. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:32, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
• Actually, I've just realised that there are links to Parochialism in Sydney and Category:Catholic Church offices at User:WikiCats, so a hacker could have recreated them from there - but I still think these re-creations coupled with previous long absences put the balance in favour of not compromised. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

The editor has been unblocked by Boing! said Zebedee on the theory that there is no compromise of the account. In my opinion this thread can be closed. EdJohnston (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Please help at WP:ERRORS

There's a dearth of administrators who are willing to help with Main page issues. Really, there are not many of us about. Please do chip in. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:48, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Didn't we just have this here a couple of days ago? If the main page is dysfunctional and many admins are not willing to join in because of that, are repeated pleas for more fingers in the dike really the way to go? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:12, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I dunno. But as I'm not planning on deleting the Main page today and it's had issues, I'll flag it up here. Maybe I ought to add a plea for this to every message I write in projectspace. Carthago delenda est! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:12, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, Zebedee, but what are you saying? The main page is only accessible to admins. If the content there is dubious or incorrect, it is incumbent on admins to fix it. If those admins want to make Misplaced Pages better, they should follow up on why there are so many issues (e.g. take a look at DYK for starters). But in any case, until we solve the cause, we have to deal with the symptoms. Please, admins, add ERRORS to your watchlist and reduce the embarrassing crap that ends up there day on day. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, there are currently 785 watchers at WP:ERRORS, and no way to tell how many are admins...or no longer even active at Misplaced Pages. But if my recent experience is any indicator, admins get tired of backing into personal disputes just because they are responding to a request to correct an error. Such a thing is not limited to WP:ERRORS, but is everywhere at WP. That junk gets old fast. I can see how admins get burned out in any area of Misplaced Pages. And let us please not haul out any project as a personal example of what's wrong with WP. It's a broken record already. If the flaws were mostly at one project, there would be no need for WP:ERRORS. Admins are people, too. — Maile (talk) 23:21, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Well DYK needs extra special attention, that's why I brought it up. It's hardly a broken record, it's more like a broken project. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps all responsible editors should watchlist WP:ERRORS, and then all repeatedly ask for help from admins they know, whenever the Main Page is covered by serious errors that are not being dealt with. Such an arrangement could be made to a wider forum than those currently being made. MPS1992 (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• One problem for me is that things like "pull it" don't mean anything--I wouldn't know what to pull, where to pull, and how to pull. That whole affair is so full of queues and pipelines and waiting rooms and templates within templates, I wouldn't know what to do. I don't mind looking at the page whenever I log on, but it's not a given that I can do anything about it. Drmies (talk) 04:16, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

  It's all easy enough. Let me know if you need anything explaining. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I have WP:ERRORS on my watchlist, and I've started stepping into the fray a bit more. I am comfortable with pulling DYK hooks because I am okay with responding to the aggrieved party who is upset their hook got yanked. I'm not so worried about the template syntax as the various rules and procedures in place - somebody's just asked why St. Andrew's Day isn't in the "On This Day" section, and quite frankly I agree, but I'm half guessing that this is so obvious an omission that it must have been done for a reason (in this case, the {{refimprove}} tag halfway down the article, perhaps). Ritchie333 13:35, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Pre-emptive Extended confirmed protection for templates

I've just been asked by a user to reduce a protection level I set some years ago, downgrading from Template Editor protection (TEP) to Extended Confirmed protection (ECP), on the basis that past requests for TEP to ECP were undertaken by administrators (two such changes are in the ECP log further up the Administrators' Noticeboard) and that it would be more suitable for the template in question (Template:Location map Russia).
I've read through the note which was left on my talk page regarding ECP, and I've read through the policy on ECP, and it doesn't appear to permit this pre-emptive usage, but I agree with the broad view expressed by the user, that ECP would be more suitable for some templates.
Any thoughts on this ? Nick (talk) 11:47, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Copying my response to Nick from his talk page: WP:PP does not discourage ECP on templates per wording of the policy... not yet. Actually, the wording looks vague, especially WP:PTPROT. Would trying to interfere with protective levels, i.e. upgrading protection from ECP to template-protection, violate the "Misplaced Pages is not bureaucracy" rule? --George Ho (talk) 11:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

@BU Rob13 and Magioladitis: (Talk page stalking elsewhere). --Izno (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I think I declined a couple of those as well. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 12:55, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Totally uninvolved; I don't think I've ever seen this template before. Do you think that TE protection is necessary? If so, don't reduce it: this is fundamentally the same thing as going from full to semi. If not, go ahead; we don't have anything against reducing a page from full protection to semiprotection, and this is, again, basically the same thing. Reducing a protection you imposed, if you now believe the protection to be excessive, is reasonable, and it would go against WP:BURO if someone would oppose your action because the lower protection level isn't explicitly authorised for the page in question. Nyttend (talk) 13:01, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There was a large RfC to determine usage of ECP, located here. In that RfC, the consensus was for Option C, which states "Allow use to combat any form of disruption (such as vandalism, edit wars, etc.) on any topic, given that semi-protection has proven to be ineffective." That was very specific consensus to use ECP only to combat active disruption where semi-protection is ineffective. The absence of specific guidance on applying ECP to high-risk templates doesn't mean it's up to administrator discretion. It means that the community has not yet supported us using the tools in this way. Prior to the RfC, administrators could not use this protection level without specific community consensus or a relevant ArbCom remedy. Similarly, I believe that we shouldn't expand the usage of ECP without some evidence of community consensus specifically for that. I expressed similar sentiments when admins started applying ECP creation protection. Maybe these are positive uses of the extendedconfirmed user right and protection level, but administrators who believe that's true should pose the question to the broader community. Admins are provided the tools to use them as the community has determined they should be used. We shouldn't deploy our technical abilities to effectively change the protection policy without an appropriate level of community input. ~ Rob₁₃ 13:11, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Has the community opposed using ECP for templates? George Ho (talk) 13:25, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

We don't use administrative tools on a "Well, they haven't explicitly told us not to do it!" basis. The community hasn't supported using ECP for templates, which is what's relevant here. ~ Rob₁₃ 13:59, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

If "high-use" templates are not "high-risk" templates, can ECP apply to "high-use" (not "high-risk") templates? I'm basing this on "high-use" and "high-risk" message templates. George Ho (talk) 14:09, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how it can, the community has only recently discussed the matter and agreed that extended confirmed protection is for cases where semi-protection has been tried and where it has failed. The policy says In cases where semi-protection has proven to be ineffective, administrators may use extended confirmed protection to combat disruption (such as vandalism, abusive sockpuppetry, edit wars, etc.) on any topic. We, as administrators, have to respect the wishes of the community through the use of our tools. I know things change and the wishes of the community often change over time, but we're talking about the most recent significant change in the administrative toolset, something which was ratified only a few weeks ago, I feel this definitely has to go back to the community to be discussed further. Nick (talk) 14:40, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

If the community has only just decided it, why would we go back to the community to discuss it further? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:44, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, though pre-emptive Extended Confirmed Protection for templates, as a replacement in some circumstances for Template Editor Protection wasn't discussed during the discussion, so there could be something for the community to discuss without rehashing old arguments. Nick (talk) 15:16, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Brexit means Brexit, don't forget.... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:48, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

The community just decided on a policy, but this use case never came up. It's not rehashing things to bring a new use case to the community for discussion. Ideally, such a discussion should also discuss ECP creation protection, which is currently applied to 17 pages but has no basis in the protection policy. ~ Rob₁₃ 22:06, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

• This request is make-work nonsense. Template:Location map Russia was last edited in September 2010 and the only talk page comment was in July 2010. Editors should not wander about the project looking for things that might be useful. Clarification I mean George Ho should give a reason for wanting a bunch of people to spend time on the template. Johnuniq (talk) 00:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

  I was going to compare this to Template:Location map China, transcluded by 1,300+ pages and semi-protected. However, I almost forget that Russia is part of Eastern Europe, which is subject to discretionary sanctions. So are its related pages. I added discretionary sanctions banner in its talk page. I did the same on the template talk page. Shall I add "ds/talk notice" on many other related pages? If discretionary sanctions is justified for using template-protection on related pages, like "location map Russia", then... I shall not challenge that. Nevertheless, other templates not related to Eastern Europe shall be discussed. George Ho (talk) 05:52, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

  What are saying? Are you thinking of adding tags somewhere? If so, do not add anything to any page unless there is a need. There may be a theoretical possibility that a tag is needed, but the tag should only be added if needed. Or, are you wanting to have a protracted discussion about why a template that has not changed in six years is protected? If so, do not discuss stuff unless there is a need. Johnuniq (talk) 06:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

  I'll rephrase: ...I'm giving up on requesting downgrade on that template for now. The talk about it is done. Now back to general concern about templates and ECP... George Ho (talk) 06:44, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

George Ho you need to stop posting at WP:RFPP asking for changes in template protection. If the template has less than 1,000 uses or is semi-protected and there is no disruptive activity it doesn't need changing. If it is template editor protected it doesn't need changing. Thanks to BU Rob13 they have all been taken care of. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 12:03, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

This is all the thanks I get for making requests of any kind? You know what? Have it your way. Until you trust EC users to edit templates, I'll not make any more requests for protection on templates. George Ho (talk) 12:12, 1 December 2016 (UTC); edited, 18:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) To be fair, I don't mind the edit requests where template protection is needed even when they're currently semi'd. Those requests aren't particularly necessary, as I regularly go through the database report and widdle away at unprotected or underprotected high-risk templates, but they aren't damaging. The continued requests for ECP protection to high-risk templates do need to stop, though. ~ Rob₁₃ 12:14, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

George Ho I didn't say you should stop just that you need to be more selective in your requests. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 14:00, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

My apologies for my outbursts hours ago; I struck that comment. However, I still decide to hold myself off from such requests until the time being, i.e. allowing EC users to edit templates without telling them to request the special right to have access to template-protected pages. George Ho (talk) 18:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

As for requesting protection on templates transcluded by <1,000 pages, I saw one of administrators accept some of my such requests in the past. I thought any of you would do the same. George Ho (talk) 18:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@George Ho: It really depends on the template. I'd template protect a template with 100 transclusions if those transclusions were Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Barrack Obama, United States, etc. It's very possibly I would semi-protect a ~800 transclusion template if the pages were medium traffic, but not for low traffic pages. ~ Rob₁₃ 02:29, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Follow-up ECP discussion

I've drafted an RfC to gauge consensus on two use cases of ECP at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Extended confirmed protection policy 2. Could some of the admins here look over the proposal and provide any suggestions? I'd like to keep it at these two use cases for now to avoid muddling things up. Note that the RfC isn't live, so no actual comments should be made there yet. ~ Rob₁₃ 02:29, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Can you add more proposals of usage? "High-risk" can be interpreted broadly. What about "high-use templates"? And what about protecting titles of articles? --George Ho (talk) 04:45, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Never mind. I overlooked or misread the bold statement. --George Ho (talk) 07:37, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: I'll say what GH struck himself on: We should distinguish between high-use-low-risk and high-use-high-risk templates. I know that I would very clearly not support ECP for Template:Navbox, but I might for Template:WikiProject Video games--both are considered high use but one has a highly-visible impact and one does not. --Izno (talk) 13:06, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@Izno: If we get into the weeds of what a high-risk template is, we're never getting out of that with any type of consensus for anything. That's been posed to the community many times but failed to gain consensus any which way. As always, protection should be a matter of administrative judgement, and the protection level should be comparable to how widely used, complicated, and high-risk those templates are. We already trust administrators to correctly differentiate between templates in need of semi and templates in need of template protection, so I think it's safe to trust them to make this differentiation as well. ~ Rob₁₃ 18:55, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

If the community doesn't form a consensus in favor of using ECP on "high-risk" templates, maybe another RfC proposal to use ECP on "high-use" templates might do. George Ho (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

No, we need to keep this simple. Protection is an administrative discretion area, including about which templates are high risk and which are not. Approve it for templates or don't, and if we do, let the decision about what is at risk be up to the administrator. Katie 19:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree, this should be generally discretionary - and can be entertained at RFPP as needed. Being able to use LESS protection (ECP as opposed to TP when TP would have otherwise been used) shouldn't be a big stretch. — xaosflux 20:05, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Concur, Protection should never be based on a set of "if-then-else" conditions. The admins were already granted discretionary use of ECP, I don't see why template protection should be made an exception. Blackmane (talk) 00:20, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

If template protection is not an exception, how do we motivate people into requesting to become template editors? George Ho (talk) 05:39, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Two things: Blackmane, the community never granted purely discretionary use of ECP. They granted discretionary use on these conditions: "In cases where semi-protection has proven to be ineffective, administrators may use extended confirmed protection to combat disruption (such as vandalism, abusive sockpuppetry, edit wars, etc.) on any topic." Extending that to pre-emptive protection of high-risk templates is more than trivial. The community may or may not want the use of ECP to be extended in that way. George Ho, I'm not terribly worried about "motivation" to become template editors. If we create a situation where less editors need the right, then less editors will ask for it, and that's completely fine. There's no need to grant user rights just for the sake of granting them. Lastly, I will be launching this RfC in the absence of any additional comments in a week or so, when I have time to go about notifying everyone from the last ECP RfC. ~ Rob₁₃ 08:23, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

malformed AFD

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I see no discussion page for Project .44.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:04, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

It has never existed. Note that the article was nominated by an IP, who couldn't create the discussion page in the first place. If the IP had given a rationale (e.g. at talk), I'd say to create the page with that as the rationale, but lacking a rationale, just undo the edit with an explanatory summary. Nyttend (talk) 15:20, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

AfD message has been removed. I think this can be closed now. JudgeRM (talk to me) 19:36, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Challenging closure of Axis: Bold as Love RfC

MrX closed the RfC, claiming "no consensus. There's roughly equal disagreement about whether the source was referring to genres, or simply opining about the album's influences". I am challenging this because--reviewing the entire section--there were six editors who supported the inclusion of hard rock, jazz, and rhythm & blues in the infobox, and three who didn't. That's not "roughly equal", and if the RfC were to be closed, it should have not have been "no consensus"; I believe the closer missed the sixth editor who made his/her stance in a bold yes in the discussion subsection rather than the votes. Dan56 (talk) 21:07, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Step one is supposed to be discussing it yourself with the closer. Have you done this? Or did you take them straight to AN, without even notifying them? Sergecross73 msg me 21:10, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

They suggested coming here to me (). Dan56 (talk) 21:33, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, yeah, but you didn't so much discuss with them as you instantly revert their close. I'm pretty certain reverting closes and arguing through edit summaries is not what is intended by "contact the editor who performed the closure and try to resolve the issue through discussion" And with AN just being one possible scenario, you still need to notify them that you started up a discussion that involves them here. That's common courtesy. Sergecross73 msg me 21:37, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Linking their name above should've notified them. Is there anything you'd like to add regarding the actual subject of this post? Dan56 (talk) 02:11, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that you're skipping steps in the process of addressing this properly, and should do that first before coming here. I would have speedy closed this had I not participated in the RFC myself. Discuss with the closer first, then come here. And if you do have to take it here, notify people through talk pages - the pinging system is so inconsistent that it's not considered good enough. (You're an experienced editor, do you really not know these things?) Sergecross73 msg me 02:18, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't see what you're getting at about the pinging system; it works fine from my experience. The editor expressed their position plainly in the edit summary; what's there left to discuss elsewhere? (I've notified them here) Dan56 (talk) 03:39, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

1. Go to the very top of this page. The one you're already on.
2. Scroll down until you see the first block of red text. Then read it.

And again, you didn't discuss anything. He closed the discussion, and you both reverted once with brisk, snippy edit summaries. Stop being so argumentative and difficult every step of the way; if you assistance from AN, then start will following the most basic of the basics. Sergecross73 msg me 14:21, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Russian editing on Articles Concerning American Politics

This is a general question but wanted to get some thoughts. It been widely reported that Russia has sponsored efforts to undermine US elections and politics. Russia has developed fake news, hacked emails, etc. I would think it would be likely that the Russian government could sponsor editors on Misplaced Pages to push certain POVs inside of US politics. Is this something that Misplaced Pages has considered? Could Misplaced Pages do anything to prevent this (e.g. identify editors from locations that are located in Eastern Europe or within Russia)? Casprings (talk) 22:31, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

There's no evidence this has happened or will happen. If we see POV pushing editors, we'll deal with them, same as always. It's rather easy to do so in that topic area because it's under discretionary sanctions. Given that this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, we're not about to block all of Eastern Europe and Russia from editing a whole topic area. ~ Rob₁₃ 11:30, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Just wanting to know.. but wouldn't this be easy to look at? You just look at articles the Russian government might be interested in (e.g. Syria) and see if ips are: 1. From Russia or Eastern Europe; 2. Editing the article in favor of known Russian positions. You wouldn't have to ban editors. You could then investigate further or even tag the editors so others would know. There is actually plenty of evidence that this is happening or will happen in the future. Russian efforts in cyber are very widely reported by mulitiple wp:rs.Casprings (talk) 11:59, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you really imagine that the USA is not also making "efforts in cyber"? If you accept that, then we just look at articles the U.S. government might be interested in (e.g. Syria) and see if ips are: 1. From the USA, Canada or Western Europe; 2. Editing the article in favor of known U.S. positions... and so on. The USA does have a past history of interfering in the internal affairs of other countries, after all. MPS1992 (talk) 19:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, not to mention that we should expect Russian citizens to enter from a pro-Russian POV at times, if only due to their government's influence. Same as US citizens, really. I should say there's no specific evidence of government-endorsed/paid POV editing. I seriously doubt this would ever happen. I could see it on the Russian Misplaced Pages as an inward-facing propaganda thing, but on the English Misplaced Pages? When you can choose to dedicate resources anywhere you want to influence American politics through espionage, hacks, theft of sensitive materials, military operations, etc., what sensible government chooses Misplaced Pages? As much as we like to pretend otherwise sometimes, we're not that important. ~ Rob₁₃ 19:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't suggest the US isn't making efforts. What I would suggest that it hasn't been reported in an WP:RS that the US government efforts "include thousands of botnets, teams of paid human “trolls,” and networks of websites and social-media accounts — echoed and amplified right-wing sites across the Internet as they portrayed Clinton as a criminal hiding potentially fatal health problems and preparing to hand control of the nation to a shadowy cabal of global financiers. The effort also sought to heighten the appearance of international tensions and promote fear of looming hostilities with nuclear-armed Russia." . Multiple sources do say that about Russia. Rather the US is or isn't doing that also seems a little irrelevant to the question. Shouldn't Misplaced Pages investigate possible influence by governments, rather or not other governments do it? If multiple reporting on Russia is true, editing Misplaced Pages to support certain POVs would be right in-line with their past behavior. Both the popularity, the rule based behavior of Misplaced Pages, and the openness to editing makes it a pretty easy target for any organized state effort to sway public opinion. Just saying... Casprings (talk) 21:52, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, Casprings. There seems to be a vague consensus here that it is unlikely that the WMF would or should spend much time investigating possible influence by governments. That, of course, is merely the opinions of some editors here on this one particular project. I think most or all of us volunteer editors do our best to deal appropriately with editing we encounter that seems not in accordance with WP:NPOV for whatever reasons. Speaking of which, you may wish to spend some of your volunteer time assisting User:Sagecandor, who has posted at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Concerns about potential influx of Russian propaganda users regarding exactly that. MPS1992 (talk) 00:18, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

We can't respond to every moral panic that crops up from time to time, whether it's rainbow parties or Russian whatevers. LavaBaron (talk) 00:27, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Everybody who is editing articles on Russian/Ukrainian topics knows that this happened already years ago. We have a lot of POV pushers, in particular, from the Russian side. They are often accounts which registered years ago but made may be several dozens edits. They appear from nowhere and start non-neutral editing, edit-war, often refuse to discuss or repeat the arguments which were already rejected previously etc. This takes enormous amount of time from editors in good standing, and in the end the accounts get blocked anyway. The easiest is to block these accounts per WP:NOTTHERE as early as possible if it is clear they behave disruptively.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:39, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Requesting help resolving accusations against me

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I don't know if this is the right venue or if there is a certain way to do this but I am being accused of being another user named Kumioko here. One person, Bbb23 stated the "checkuser" evidence was inconclusive (I have no idea what that means, but inconclusive to me means not proven). Others seem to be insisting on blocking me just based on some coincidental edits. This Kumioko user attempted to comment but their edit was reverted as ban evasion and the IP they used was added as a "sock".

So I am left with no alternative but to just stop participating in Misplaced Pages because a couple of people want to ban me without evidence? I need help. Mr. Nosferatu (talk) 01:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

You are obviously not a new user, and quickly launched into contentious parts of the project within days of registering your account. It is quite reasonable of editors and administrators to question what accounts you have previously used, and to suspect you might be banned from the project. The best way to help yourself would be to come clean as to your previous accounts, either publicly, or privately to the arbitration committee. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:14, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I suspect that you're about to be blocked for being a sock of Kumioko. The evidence is convincing, as is the self-incriminating tone and style of your comment at SPI. - MrX 01:26, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

First I have no idea what I said that was self incriminating. I asked for help and linked to a discussion where i am being accused of being someone else.

Secondly I agree I am probably going to get blocked regardless of guilt. There seems to be a culture of blood here and you are going to get it.

Lastly, I have never had an account before. If you think I had one then prove it or move on. I did a few edits here and there over the years as an IP and have been reading things off and on for a while and yes I read bits and pieces of the Kumioko incident currently and in the past when it was ongoing. Personally I think they were railroaded and the actions I am seeing right now from all of you has me convinced that they were right. I hope you are proud of yourselves for running off another editor who is only trying to help. Mr. Nosferatu (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

PS, I also have absolutely no idea what I did that was contentious. I assessed a few articles, most of which weren't for WPUS yet it is those you seem to be focusing on. So its pretty obvious you are digging for a reason, any reason at all, to block someone you can accuse of this Kumioko editor. I guess you found one. Go ahead and block me as a sock of them, I don't care at this point. You wonder why I am annoyed? Really? Come on. Mr. Nosferatu (talk) 02:06, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

"Checkuser" looks at technical things (e.g. your IP address) that are otherwise concealed, and tools such as IP geolocation are relevant. If you're on a different continent from Kumioko, the checkuser can say "there's no chance that these two are the same person", if you're using the same IP address as Kumioko, the checkuser can say "the accounts are definitely connected", and if the evidence isn't clear either way, the checkuser says "inconclusive". Nyttend (talk) 02:08, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Go read the result. Bbb23 stated the CU was inconclusive. Yet, here we are. I don't really know what CU is or how it works and don't care. All I know is I am being falsely accused of being someone else because I commented on the WPUS talk page and assessed some articles that user also edited. If you have proof then fine block the account. Otherwise someone needs to close that accusation and apologize for the misunderstanding. The apology is less about wanting it and more about documenting the misunderstanding on my talk page to prevent it happening again. Mr. Nosferatu (talk) 02:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Once again, "inconclusive" means that the checkuser can neither connect you nor exonerate you. In other words, the checkuser results should be ignored, not used as a basis for a decision either way. This being the case, the sockpuppetry case has to proceed on behavioral grounds: are you acting like Kumioko? I'll not offer an opinion either way. Nyttend (talk) 03:16, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

What I am acting like is someone who is pissed off that they are being accused of being someone else and even though the "evidence" doesn't prove it, a few people are continuing with the accusations anyway like they are the Ten Commandments. I'm not sure how someone should react to being accused, falsely, of being someone else...should I say thank you? You tell me? How does this community expect someone to react when they are being accused of something they didn't do or someone they are not? Mr. Nosferatu (talk) 03:35, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

May I speak bluntly? We don't give a shit whether you are a sockpuppet or a saint. People who do useful things are welcome, while those who waste community time and energy by whining at noticeboards are not. Johnuniq (talk) 03:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok fine I will speak bluntly as well. I was contributing positively until Fram went to a Sockpuppet "noticeboard" "whining" and "wasting community time" by accusing me of someone else. Now, if you have a problem with me coming here and asking for help with clearing these baseless accusations then I also do not give a shit. Honestly, the longer I argue this with you "editors" that just seem to want to create drama for no F'ing reasons makes me think more and more than this "community" is a lost cause and not worth my time. Now either provide proof of your claims and block my account or close that accusation and apologize for the mistake. Its really that easy. Mr. Nosferatu (talk) 04:02, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Guessing that this is my final comment. Both in your wording and in your tone, you sound extremely similar to Kumioko/Reguyla, whether at the start of Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/03#My_block_on_IRC or in the final sections of User talk:Reguyla/Archive 1. Among other things, both you and Reguyla are unusually fond of the use of "false" and unusually prone to use "its" in place of "it's". Moreover, your tone is unusual for someone who's merely annoyed at how a previous editor was received, as is your focus on the idea that Kumioko was banned for criticising administrators; as far as I know, this position wasn't held by anyone other than Kumioko himself, and you sound very much like Reguyla's opening comments at the linked COM:VP discussion. Finally, the "go ahead and block me" sentiment is hardly what I would expect a newly registered user to say in his first comment at a talk page, his first comment in a discussion (it's very rare to see anyone say such a thing), because people who begin editing as IPs generally know how to fit in with the community, rather than agonizing them. Nyttend (talk) 04:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok so first thing first. The its versus it's thing is due to the spellchecker on my phone auto changing stuff. I just got a new phone and I haven't fixed all the settings yet. Next, I never had a problem as an IP because I rarely edited and was never accused of being someone else. It wasn't until I created an account and started editing more actively that I ran into problems. If Kumioko was accused of stuff they didn't do then sure I guess our tone would be similar. I also never realized using the word false to identify being falsely accused of something to be an uncommon term. It's used on TV a lot, I see it in the news and in printed media a lot, so I guess no one told the rest of the world its usage is uncommon. So again maybe you can tell me how a new editor who has been (what's the synonym for falsely accused) should act when they are "wrongly" accused of being someone else? I get it, you people hate Kumioko but you know what, get over it. Not every new editor who shows an interest in the same topics is going to be them and dare I say it, I am seeing why they had a problem with some of the people here if this is how they were treated as well. You're really doing a great job of proving them wrong. Mr. Nosferatu (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

It's interesting that you mention your phone, because you are not using a phone to edit this site. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 13:00, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Does anyone know how Mr. Nosferatu (talk · contribs) became aware of Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Kumioko? That is, what prompted them to post there? The 8 October 2016 comment shows precisely the same confusion believed only by Kumioko. Johnuniq (talk) 05:03, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Well this edit would have caused a ping. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Ouch, that's a bit obvious. Thanks. Johnuniq (talk) 10:45, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Can someone also block the static IP 138.163.0.41? It's Kumioko (self-declared and obvious anyway), and the previous 3-month block of that IP has expired without any improvements so a longer block may be needed for the IP. Fram (talk) 15:29, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

We'll try six months this time. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:45, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

User:BatteryIncluded and the US Election 2016 results

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• BatteryIncluded (talk · contribs)

While we've been appaled by the surprise election of Donald Trump, BatteryIncluded appears not to exhibit any views on it. He seems to congratulate the new President-elect, as well as to attack anyone who's against him. He also supports any policy hostile to immigrants, which depended upon by the tech industry, and the proposal to ban the Internet. Most of his comments are favorable to both Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin, which makes him a puppet.

Most disturbingly, BatteryIncluded is part of a silent majority that stands with Trump, and may helped him. He has shown authoritarian tendencies. There's a specific action to make sure that BatteryIncluded won't involve in un-American actions.

On the right hand note, BatteryIncluded is a long-term problem that crops up every now and then and has shown absolute power over the Internet.

119.40.126.96 (talk) 07:28, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Creation of six Regional Indicator Symbol redirects

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'd like an administrator to create six redirect pages for these Regional Indicator Symbol combinations (similar to the redirect of 🇦🇩 to Flag of Andorra):

🇦🇨

#REDIRECT ]

🇧🇷

#REDIRECT ]

🇪🇺

#REDIRECT ]

🇮🇨

#REDIRECT ]

🇹🇦

#REDIRECT ]

🇺🇳

#REDIRECT ]

I would do it myself but I get a "Permission error". Thanks. DRMcCreedy (talk) 23:27, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

 Doing... — xaosflux 00:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux 00:06, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

IP pushing PoV?

We've an IP 66.244.122.100 who keeps pushing that Roy Cooper has be elected Governor of North Carolina & yet that election is still in dispute. It's quite likely that eventually Cooper will be declared the winner, but that hasn't happened yet. GoodDay (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested unblock, user:zanimum

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

zanimum (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Hi, I'm wondering if anyone could work with me to get me unblocked, as per this suggestion on Meta? I believe the password I was using on LinkedIn some years ago, which was leaked a few months ago, is the password I was using for my global Wikimedia account. Anyway, someone logged in and delinked the main page on about 170 pages, using my account.

I'm an editor since 2002, a sysops since 2003 or 2004, and part of the WMF Communications Committee. I'd like to simply change my password to something secure, and go back to editing, please. How can we go about doing this? My email address is available on my German Misplaced Pages user page. -- 198.96.114.148 (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC) (user:zanimum at work)

Your email address, nicholasmoreaugmail.com, appears on your userpage here as well. Please reply to the email I've just sent you. Nyttend (talk) 17:13, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Whoops, that's true! (I got lazy and Googled my username, instead of typing in the URL, and strangely other projects came up first.) I've just replied, thank you for your help! -- 198.96.114.20 (talk) 18:29, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Just to note that I've no objection to any admin unblocking the account locally without reference to me, once the ID has been established. Sorry, I don't have time to look into this myself. Optimist on the run (talk) 18:40, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I have received a response from Nick, confirming that the IP really is his. Now let's see about getting him back in control of his account. Nyttend (talk) 21:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate Zanimum's posting here for the local community to be aware that he will be returning to editing En-WP, but I think the trust and security team in the Office has also been involved recently in confirming that compromised admin accounts have been secured. Zanimum, would it be possible for you to have someone there give us a go-ahead here? Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

• A steward has already unlocked this account. — xaosflux 19:47, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Active politician?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have a dispute regarding this, active politician status on the talkpage of a biography - if a person was in a position then are no longer in a position, they have no political job, no political status at all, are they then classed as an active politician, yes or no on the talkpage settings? Govindaharihari (talk) 19:58, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Govindaharihari is referring to the discussion here. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 20:03, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

• That discussion is about the actual article content, this concern is about the talkpage status only, is he to be classed as an active politician or not when he has no political job Govindaharihari (talk) 20:06, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

  This is a pure content dispute (about a banner that doesn't really matter at that). What administrative action are you looking for here? Work it out on the talk page. --Majora (talk) 20:08, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

  As an aside, your edit didn't actually do anything. -- zzuuzz 20:12, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

  • user_talk:zzuuzz Then why was it reverted? https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Zac_Goldsmith&diff=prev&oldid=752856912 the use absolutallypuremilk is claiming there is a consensus for his change that a person without any political job is to be classed as an active Politian - active, yes or no - then why do we have the parameter?
  • It is more important than that, although it is clear to me, Apsolutepurepilk is disputing it, I am looking for an administration comment to sort this out, it is important, otherwise why do we have the yes or no options, should inactive politicians be classed as active - yes because they have been active in the past? Govindaharihari (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
    • When you've got users like Martinevans123 on the case you don't need an admin. Actually I see the the diff which is mentioned on the talk page will work - there's more than one parameter to change. Personally I think the talk page template should be reworded to include politicians who have recently left office. As it is currently worded however, it clearly does not apply. Don't bother with whether they are active or not, look at what the template says. -- zzuuzz 20:28, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
      • I have requested an edit to the template so this issue does not suck up time again, see here Template_talk:Active_politician#Edit_request. I also suggest changing the wording so it applies to all politicians in office, regardless of whether they are campaigning for reelection. NPalgan2 (talk) 21:36, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
      • That idiot Evans knows nothing about politics. He can't see the wood for the trees. Tell him to just get his skates on and stop being so ruddy reckless. Sheherazade Ventura-Bentley123 (talk) 21:43, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Request for Closure Review: Talk:Michael_Portillo#RfC:_Should_predecessors_and_successors_be_included_in_the_infobox.3F

This is a request for an official review of the decision to close the Request for Comment at Talk:Michael_Portillo, which was requested by Smerus and carried out by Midnightblueowl. The RfC concerned the issue of whether the subject's infobox should contain his political predecessors and successors, as is customary on other BLPs and as is provided for in the community-endorsed infobox template. As you will be aware, the standard policy is to let RfCs run for 30 days, unless the discussion has come to a standstill and there is either an agreement by both sides that the RfC should be closed or another compelling reason for closure. This RfC was opened on November 14, 2016 – it was closed today, Dec. 3 2016, whereas under normal circumstances it should have been closed no sooner than 11 days from now. Discussion has not come to a standstill (an editor !voted and commented just 10 hours before closure), and there was no such agreement by both sides that the RfC should be closed; the request for closure was filed by Smerus without the consultation of other editors. Moreover, as this issue is relevant to thousands of BLPs wiki-wide I think it is all the more important that the RfC be allowed to run for at least the full 30 day period. Prior to making this review request, I informed Midnightblueowl here and they agreed that an official review was appropriate. I have also notified Smerus on their user talk page. Best wishes, Specto73 (talk) 23:24, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

It might make more sense to open an RfC about including predecessors and successors in politician infoboxes in general. Everything said there pro and con has general applicability. DGG ( talk ) 01:42, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

@DGG: That is precisely my view. As the inclusion of predecessors and successors in political infoboxes is the current status quo standard, I agree that a wiki-wide consultation would be more appropriate. Given the general applicability of this issue and the overwhelming past consensus, I would be exceedingly grateful if you would reopen the discussion – I don't see any reason that suggests the RfC should have been closed in the first place, and I am disinclined to start a general RfC as I am very much in favour of maintaining the status quo. Thanks, Specto73 (talk) 22:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

User continues to remove sourced information

Hello, could I please have help in solving this matter? I added some information to the Guardian: The Lonely and Great God page but another user continues to remove this information. I tried to engage in a discussion with them on their talk page but they removed the message. This is not the first time I have encountered this. I have seen many other South Korean drama pages that list information like this. A few months ago, under a different IP address, the same user was removing large portions of information and when I tried to leave a message on their talk page they ignored it. I had to get another Misplaced Pages user to act as a mediator to solve that issue and I'm having to do that again. Could someone please help me solve this? Thanks. (124.43.93.21 (talk) 11:10, 4 December 2016 (UTC))

Administrator protection for block-abusing edits?

An administrator is ordering me to protect the edits of socks with the edit comment, "Do not edit closed AfDs".  Two examples are, and I am giving the administrator a chance to explain himself, but if there is no response here, I will simply revert him, as such edits have no 3RR limits.  @Sandstein:.  Unscintillating (talk) 17:04, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Might want to discuss this on User talk:Sandstein before coming here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 17:11, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I thought I was clear in my warning: "Do not edit closed AfDs, not even to strike through comments by blocked editors. This creates the mistaken impression that the closing admin closed the discussion in the state after your edits." Our policy at WP:TPO is also quite clear: "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page. Striking text constitutes a change in meaning, and should only be done by the user who wrote it or someone acting at their explicit request." I'm not sure what the point of this is, except to waste the time of others.  Sandstein  17:31, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:TPO is not a policy it is a guideline.  Further WP:TPO has in no way been disregarded.  Changing the meaning to the rest of the discussion is covered by dating the strike.  This is exactly why the edits of blocked editors in AfDs cannot be directly reverted, with the exception of when their post is the last post in the AfD.  Changing the meaning to the blocked editor's comments is exactly the purpose of the strike, which is covered by policy.  Also, this is long-standing practice in closed AfDs, and you've not responded to the point that I can revert you and my revert is not subject to 3RR.  Unscintillating (talk) 17:54, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

• For further examples of Unscintillating's obsessive attitude and repeated long-term misbehaviour regarding this issue, please see e.g., Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2011_September_7#Template:Banning-enforcement_undermining and Wikipedia_talk:Banning_policy/Archive_7#RfC_to_re-validate_WP:Banning_policy. It's also worth mentioning that, after I disagreed with him regarding this issue, he stalked and hounded me for over a year. It might be time to consider a topic ban formally restricting this chronically annoying editor from any edits to closed AfDs. Reyk _YO! 17:39, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• Don't edit closed discussions. Barring serious issues like outing or a severe BLP issue, that's pretty absolute. The discussion is an archive of exactly what the closer saw when they made their close, and it's important to maintain it as such. ~ Rob₁₃ 18:32, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Given that WP:Blocking policy is a policy, and WP:SOCKSTRIKE is established practice, your comment seems to be a matter for you to take up at the respective talk pages. 

Your other point that AfDs are harder to read, I disagree with, as it has been my experience that reading old AfDs with block-abuse strikeouts in place allows considering if the closer was improperly influenced by block-evading editors, which is only done while considering the information available to the closer.  Unscintillating (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

"Barring serious issues" - I think we're all agreed on that much. But some of us see socking as just such a serious issue. (I would support this strike-through.) Andy Dingley (talk) 22:10, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

*Just my 2c here but what's the problem with Unscintillating striking a socks comment & adding a note?, Nac & admins have done it for quite some time & in one case a comment was struck a month after the closure so I don't get the issue here ?, Although AFDs shouldn't be edited after closure I just don't see an issue with striking a socks comment after closure? .... –Davey2010 19:14, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

• Nevermind I didn't realize one sock-strike was added despite the AFD being closed back in October - I personally have no issue with anyone adding a sock strike perhaps a few hours or days of it being closed but these shouldn't be added 2 months (or even a month) after a closure - I'm not going to revert but I would recommend the sock-strike be reverted because it's rather pointless - Many socks have been blocked and many have commented at AFD and many haven't had their !vote striked (nor should they). –Davey2010 20:21, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

• There's pretty much never a valid reason to edit an AFD that closed a month an and a half ago. Spouting off policies and essays that you imagine support this behavior is not compelling, especially when It looks like you haven't read them very carefully, i.e. SOCKSTRIKE reads, in part '"When deciding how to clean up after a sock, ask yourself "What is the cleanest and least disruptive way of dealing with each edit?" and use that as your guide. As long as you aren't emotionally motivated, you will probably get it right most of the time. If you are unsure with any modification, just ask an admin first" emphasis not added. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• The issue of closed AfDs has no relevance for policy.  Nor is there any theory that the edits of banned or blocked editors have a statute of limitations.  The following is from WP:Blocking policy:

== Evasion of blocks == Shortcut WP:BLOCKEVASION . . . === Edits by and on behalf of blocked editors === Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a block, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule. This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a blocked editor (obviously helpful changes, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand), but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert.

Unscintillating (talk) 21:12, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

You didn't revert, you struck them out. Not the same thing. In any case, you may notice that literally nobody who has commented so far agrees with your position. As I would hope you are aware, consensus, not quoting rules, is how decision making works here, and consensus does not appear at this time to favor your position. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:19, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

• I also agree the striking in closed AfDs was inappropriate. Would anybody object to a mass undo of his other such edits today? BethNaught (talk) 21:21, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Since the op is so fond of linking to things, I would suggest that both WP:POINT and definently WP:BOOMERANG apply at this point and it's unlikely anyone would object other than the filing party here. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:28, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I'll get on with it. BethNaught (talk) 21:34, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Unscintillating: It is not desirable to make a fuss about socks or banned users. Certainly sock edits should be struck or removed from active discussions, but there is no point doing that to a closed discussion. We know that some comments are from dubious contributors while others might completely miss the point of the discussion—tagging them is not helpful, and the excitement may in fact be counter productive per WP:DENY. Johnuniq (talk) 00:50, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Johnuniq, We recently started a similar discussion at WT:Dealing with sock puppets#Recommendations for WP:TPO violations for AfD restored on project page.  Your main focus there seemed to be to prefer removal to strikethrough.  As for your objections to WP:Blocking policy, can I suggest airing those at WT:Blocking policy?  Unscintillating (talk) 01:24, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

• Your last sentence suggests the boomerang is in full effect here. Beeblebrox said it best above in that consensus is how decisions are made. No party in this thread seems to be in full agreement with you. It might suggest your actions were not ok. Killiondude (talk) 01:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

• I noticed the strikes on a few closed AFDs as well (some were closed like a month ago?). Personally, I don't get the point in striking out the stuff from closed AFDs. Considering that we are trying to WP:DENY recognition, it is better to just let it be. Sometimes, edits made to an AFD after it has been closed are also disruptive in the sense that other editors need to double check the edit - which wastes time of multiple editors. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:22, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

There has always been a large wiggle room between that which needs to be done and that which can be done, but most editors wouldn't bother to. I see these strike-throughs as being within this. There is no need for them (the AfD has gone now, it wouldn't have been affected by them). Yet Unscintillating also has justification for striking them: these were socks. It is not a good thing to start talking about BOOMERANGs. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:08, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

• This is pretty ridiculous. The others are correct imo that closed AFDs and similar discussions should not be altered unless there's a serious issue. Striking the comments of a sock for the sake of striking them is not serious enough. Doing so changes the meaning. Even an IAR perspective yields little as this behavior does nothing to improve the encyclopedia. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:36, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
• If you stirke through a sock's comment in a closed discussion, you're giving a false impression - namely that the closing admin saw the comment crossed out. Please also note that in some cases, a user may appeal a closure on the grounds of sockpuppetry not recognized until after the closure - and if you strike it out, it looks like the issue was known at the time of closure. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Image files with embedded data

For those who don't wander over to commons often - there has been a large issue with uploaded jpgs containing a hidden video appended at the end of the file, in order to use Wikimedia as a free web host. I suspect less likely here, as we require autoconfimation to upload, but since commons has implemented an edit filter to stop such uploads, they may start looking elsewhere. See...

• c:Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard#Influx_of_files_with_embedded_data_.28CSD.23F9.29
• c:Special:AbuseFilter/160
• Filter Log
  

Would it be sensible to add their edit filter here to to make sure? Ronhjones  01:49, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

The query on Commons yields nothing here. MER-C 02:47, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Unless there's evidence of active damage on enwiki, I think we should let it be for now. Edit filters are expensive, and this a new/not-very-prevalent issue on Commons. It may be a temporary uptick in activity. ~ Rob₁₃ 03:50, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

As an admin here and at Commons, I agree: as long as the query finds nothing, we should be good, and we can always use the filter if needed. If I were one of these uploaders, finding myself thwarted at Commons, I'd try to find some other way to do it (I have a "good" idea, but WP:BEANS gets in the way...), rather than coming to the largest of all WMF projects, where folks might find it easy to stop me if I did the same thing. Nyttend (talk) 16:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Need other adminly eyes on Arnav19

Arnav19 is a very prolific editor in Indian television articles, but for six months or more I've been dealing with massive cleanup efforts across his articles. He's created tons of them using some flawed template and just keeps creating more with the same weird and unnecessary errors:

• Numbering things 01, 02, 03 instead of 1, 2, 3. I had to fix a ton of these in August but they still keep coming.
• Adding Indic script to the lead (contravening WP:NOINDICSCRIPT)
• Misusing |related=, |followed_by=, |preceded_by= - the first is for spin-offs, adaptations, reboots. Arnav tends to use it to indicate shows that are thematically similar. The other two are for works in the same general continuity. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine precedes Star Trek: Voyager. Arnav et al. use it to indicate that Show X aired in the 8pm time slot before Show Y.
• Generally having no awareness or understanding of Template:Infobox television despite numerous efforts to get him to look at it.
• Prematurely creating articles for individual TV seasons when the articles basically duplicate what's in the main article. Compare Annamalai (season 3) to Annamalai (2014 TV series). Or look at Rayil Sneham (season 3) and ask why there isn't even a main article on the show.
• There was an issue with him recreating Maragatha Veenai (Tamil series) after an AfD had been held for a AfD had been held on a similarly named article. (I just remember this issue. Not sure what to do about it.)
• A couple of months ago I had to fix a ton of articles that incorrectly listed Tamil Nadu (a state in India) as a country.
• I haven't even dealt with the matter of whether or not the articles he's creating are notable. Is it on Indian TV? Boom, he creates it.
• There were numerous other problems -- poorly sourced improperly formatted International broadcast sections, etc.

Now, he didn't create all the articles, but I found I kept finding his name at the bottom of a lot of them. Some of the problems have improved, but many have not. And as a very strange coincidence, many of my fixes were met with extreme resistance by a number of fly-by-night editors and IPs. Like, people were going out of their way to restore 01, 02, 03, and a number of the other bizarre mistakes. Very odd. IP 73.189.117.30 was one of them, a California-based IP on Comcast. In this edit from a few days ago, Arnav creates an article and includes the unnecessary |preceded_by=, |followed_by= and |related=, which gets filled up (erroneously) by a California-based IPv6 editor from Comcast. Given the nature of Indian entertainment articles, it's not out of the question that there are numerous paid editors circulating around these articles. Anyway, the bigger issue is how to handle Arnav, how to get him to bring the articles he's already created up to snuff before creating more, and how to deal with the problems created. I'm happy to help with some of the cleanup, but since I've already been involved in a lot of the cleanup, I think it would be most equitable to let another admin handle the adminning here. Arnav has not been impolite, but his prior assurances that he'd help clean things up I don't think have been fulfilled and he keeps moving forward with new articles instead of being sure that the one's he's created meet a basic standard. I also think that English is not his strong suit, so that will be a challenge as well. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:20, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I've come across the editor when I was cleaning up after another sockfarm. I've found most of the articles to revolve around shows on Raj TV but unlike that sockfarm (which was exclusive to the channel) Arnav19 is prolific on any dubbed TV series and the articles all had the same problems as the farm. —SpacemanSpiff 03:45, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Question of possible undue weight in articles on Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump

Because I don't have a freaking clue exactly where to post this, I am posting it here. In the first article, the lede prominently mentions the factoid that Clinton won the popular vote by 0.2%. There has been significant discussion on the talk page of the other article on Donald Trump about adding that material to the lede of that article as well. Personally, I think the matter is basically virtually trivia, and certainly doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the lede of either article at this point. The matter has received a great deal of press attention since the election, for various reasons, but I have to personally think that this attention to it is only a temporary blip. I could be wrong of course. I think broader input from a greater variety of experienced editors on this matter would be very useful, and sorry if I put this in the wrong place. John Carter (talk) 23:34, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I think you're very incorrect that this is going to be a blip. It's also in the lede not only of George W. Bush but of Rutherford B. Hayes! –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:47, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

There is historical context in both of those mentions (gotta love the ref for the Bush one though), but more generally: House POV will prevail, don't drive yourself nuts about it. Arkon (talk) 23:53, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

The only part that's really annoying is the tendency to phrase it as "despite winning the popular vote, XYZ lost the election." which puts the emphasis on the popular vote, not the true major event, the actual result of the election. It took a bit on Clinton / Trump to get it phrased as "...lost the election despite winning the popular vote". Subtle but very real POV push and yes, the house POV as well. Ravensfire (talk) 00:10, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I tend to agree that phrasing to the effect of "X lost in the electoral count, despite receiving (some) more popular votes," would probably be more neutral and place more emphasis on the matter that is really important in these instances, the electoral count, not the popular vote. John Carter (talk) 00:12, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

FWIW, nobody won the popular vote in 2016, as nobody got over 50%. GoodDay (talk) 00:20, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that's been mentioned on the Trump talk page too, where someone indicated Clinton won the plurality not the majority. John Carter (talk) 00:21, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

This kind of thing goes to WP:NPOV/N after discussions on talk page. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:24, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

It wouldn't surprise me if those articles-in-question were victims of WP:RECENTISM, as well. GoodDay (talk) 00:27, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Not necessarily; Hayes' article has mentioned this fact since at least 9 August 2002. Nyttend (talk) 02:21, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Particularly the bio of Trump. Clinton has been pretty much quiet lately, but there seems to be an almost uncontrollable urge on the part of people to add content to the main article on a topic, in this case the Trump bio, rather than the more directly relevant subarticle dealing with the narrower topic. John Carter (talk) 00:51, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Request for review of Wurdi Youang RFC closure

This is a request to review the closure at Talk:Wurdi Youang#RfC: should the coordinates be included in the article to determine whether the closer interpreted the consensus (or lack thereof) incorrectly. I and other editors have discussed this with the closer at Talk:Wurdi Youang#Post-closure.

The RFC was closed as "no consensus"; there were several editors on each side of the debate, and (to my mind) no indication that any editors were likely to change their minds on the subject. However I do not think that "no consensus" is an appropriate decision for the RFC closure because:

• According to WP:RFCEND, the outcome should be "determined by weighing the merits of the arguments and assessing if they are consistent with Misplaced Pages policies"
• According to WP:CLOSE#Consensus the closer should "discard irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy"
• Editors in favour of including the coordinates in the article explicitly cited policies, and well-established guidelines and precedents, specifically.
  • WP:NOTCENSORED: Misplaced Pages will not remove ... information from articles if it is otherwise encyclopedic
  • WP:5P1: Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, i.e. "a type of reference work or compendium holding a comprehensive summary of information".
  • WP:GEO#Usage guidelines: In general, coordinates should be added to any article about a location, structure, or geographic feature that is more or less fixed in one place.
    (As is currently done on 1,000,000+ other pages.)
• Editors wanting to remove the coordinates appear not to have cited any Misplaced Pages policies at all that would exclude the coordinates.

Even the closing statement says that there is a policy that would have the coordinates included in the article (even when an external organization wants them removed) but does not mention any policy that would exclude them.

The result of "no consensus" is not appropriate because it applies equal weighting to opinions that have no basis in policy, whereas those opinions should have been discarded; only those opinions based on policy should have been considered. I submit that result of the RFC should have been to include the coordinates because there are several policies and guidelines that say we should include them and explicitly say that we will not remove them at the request of an external organization. There are no policies that would exclude the coordinates from the article. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:15, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The GEO wikiproject can state whatever it wants, it is not valid policy or guideline regarding content, any more than any other wikiproject. The only real argument with a policy back was NOTCENSORED which relies on the information being 'encylopedic', given that the only point of co-ords is to precisely pinpoint a location, it is arguable if that is useful information if the location is in private ownership and is a culturally significant area that is highly unlikley to welcome tourists tramping over it. As the owners have specifically requested it not be geolocated, this is even more unlikely to be useful. What it is - useful information, precisely where it is (beyond a general area) - useless given you cant go to it. As there was only one policy-backed argument, which was directly opposed by people arguing the information was not encyclopedic, a 'no consensus' result is acceptable. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:40, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I agreed that WP:GEO#Usage guidelines is not a policy, but it is a generally accepted guideline whose existence - together with the existence of coords on many, many other articles - tell us that the precise (precision per WP:COORDPREC) location is deemed by the Misplaced Pages community to be encyclopedic. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikiprojects only indicate that members of that wikiproject find the work they do encyclopedic. It does not necessarily make their focus encyclopedic just because a number of people are interested in what is (for a lot of projects) less-than-useful cruft. It is arguable that there is an encyclopedic benefit to that information, and since multiple people have argued that, a no-consensus result is a reasonable close to that RFC. You need a stronger argument than 'other stuff exists' and 'its encyclopedic' when people disagree. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:22, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Topic ban

Hello sysops. I am topic banned from making any edits on the Balkans and this is how it's now been for about a year and a half. I only edit from time to time anyway and the account I have is a legit alternative account of User:Sinbad Barron, but this is known to all editors that have dealt with my account. Ideally I would have liked to ping User:Swarm here but his editing pattern shows he may not be likely to respond to my message any time soon, it is one month since his last contrib. Anyhow, would someone be willing to allow me to make edits once more on Balkans subjects as I promise I will respect concensus, not edit war, and be constructive. I'm happy to accept some form of restriction if this can be allowed. Thankyou all from now for any consideration, in mean time I will edit as I do normally. --Sinbad Barron (talk) 09:46, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

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