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Current state of the draft

I originally set out to just remove the BLP violations and revdel those, but in the process of doing so it became necessary to overhaul the article. I've removed material that I couldn't see a source for, and made it clear that (per sources) this is a conspiracy theory with no evidence coming from some doubtful sources. James spencer moulson (talk · contribs)'s original version was topic-ban worthy, if not block worthy. Without combing through every single edit after his, I get the impression that most other users didn't exacerbate the BLP violations he posted, but still failed to address them. Had someone else fixed the draft before me (leaving me undeniably uninvolved), and had he been notified about discretionary sanctions relating to post-1932 American politics, I would have personally topic banned him.

I have not yet moved this into article space because of concerns over WP:EFFECT as well as waiting for more admin support. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

need to move it now. coverage in BBC shootup in NYT snopes local coverage it is not one event, and there are lots of reliable sources, although it may be a honey pot for conspirators. Beatley (talk) 14:22, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Adl-Tabatabai and simplification

Adl-Tabatabai was not the conspiracy theory forum poster, he was the conspiracy theorist who cited the conspiracy theory forum post (in addition to the Tweet and the 4chan post). If we are going to simplify it, then:

BuzzFeed traced the start of the conspiracy theory to Sean Adl-Tabatabai (a former associate of professional conspiracy theorist David Icke), who cited previously unrelated posts from a conspiracy theory forum, 4chan, and a Tweet written by an alt-right account as supposed evidence that emails found on Anthony Weiner's laptop purportedly revealed the existence of a pedophilia ring. Adl-Tabatabai's story was then spread by and elaborated on by other fake news websites, one going so far as to claim that the NYPD had raided Hillary Clinton's property.

Is slightly shorter than:

BuzzFeed traced the start of the conspiracy theory to a Tweet written by an alt-right account claimed that emails found on Anthony Weiner's laptop purportedly revealed the existence of a pedophilia ring and an initially unrelated forum post on a conspiracy theorist website, both of which were imagined to be related by Sean Adl-Tabatabai (a former associate of professional conspiracy theorist David Icke), citing a 4chan post. Adl-Tabatabai's story was then spread by and elaborated on by other fake news websites, one going so far as to claim that the NYPD had raided Hillary Clinton's property.

However, the tweet got the ball rolling and was the origin of the core of the conspiracy theory (which Adl-Tabatabai developed into its current form). Ian.thomson (talk) 23:43, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Comet Ping Pong's (Schrodinger's?) Basement

Borrowing from the main Comet Ping Pong Talk page, there is an apparent contradiction regarding the resturant's basement.

This Metro Weekly interview from 2015 where Alefantis claims Comet Ping Pong has a basement, used for storing canned vegetables and sauces:

Like our sauce — we harvest a whole crop of organic tomatoes — 10 tons of tomatoes every year. Can them all, store them in the basement, have like a harvest party when it gets loaded in.

And this one from the BBC from late 2016, where he emphatically denies having a basement:

"They ignore basic truths," Alefantis tells BBC Trending. For instance, the conspiracy supposedly is run out of the restaurant's basement. "We don't even have a basement."

The Metro interview as also mentioned in an recent article by Inquisitr. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 15:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Violates WP:SYNTH without a WP:SECONDARY source analysis that meets WP:Identifying reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 04:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Which source does one use in ascertaining whether or not the property has a basement? Solntsa90 (talk) 19:53, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

"debunked"

Came here from AIV, with no prior involvement with the page. Just want to say that even though this is a conspiracy theory, the wording is a little over the top. "Conspiracy theory" already implies no basis in reality. Using language that sounds like "completely disproved and debunked conspiracy theory with no basis in reality that's been disproved and debunked" is actually counterproductive, because it stops sounding like a neutral presentation. Vanamonde (talk) 04:15, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Same exact line of reasoning already been discussed to death at Talk:Comet Ping Pong. Sagecandor (talk) 04:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Vanamonde--this was one of the issues that led me to support deletion at the MfD. The polemicism has been toned down a little since then, but the article now gives more of an illusion of completeness than before (and it's still way too polemical). 50.0.136.56 (talk) 08:35, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

was a good edit that shouldn't have been reverted. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 08:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

"reveal that" implies that it's true, and so far only alt-right "sources" and fake news sites support that claim. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh good catch, "revealed" should be kept as "claimed". Other than that, the reverted edit had calmer wording, and calmer is a good thing. Frankly the intensity of denials in the current version makes the theory sound more credible rather than less. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I have made the neutral change, changing "revealed" to "alleged". Yoshiman6464 (talk) 14:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the correct section to make this suggestion vs creating a new section but I wanted to add my two cents. The wording in the article "and has been promoted by "alt-right activists" such as Mike Cernovich and Brittany Pettibone" should be revised. Labeling either of those two as "alt-right activists" could be libelous. From what I know about Cernovich who is an attorney and author, he would not approve of that label. Maybe the term "independent journalists" or another term that is more neutral would be more appropriate. Again just my two centsCllgbksr (talk) 12:38, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Cernovich isn't actually an attorney btw or has presented no evidence to that effect. He's also self identified as Alt-right before Battleofalma (talk) 15:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not going to take the time to research whether Cernovich has a JD or not. He's mentioned he's an attorney. If you can find a credible source quoting Cernovich saying he is alt-right I'd love to see it. Someone saying he's alt right isn't going to cut it. The alt-right label Cernovich has been pinned with is being discussed in the talk page of his main article.Cllgbksr (talk) 15:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

This is the most biased article I have ever seen. "(Conspiracy Theory)", "which falsely claims", and that's what I found in the first 5 seconds of reading it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.4.242.53 (talk) 15:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

On the contrary, I find no issues with this article's balance. If you feel that it is incorrect in any way, please add references to Reliable sources that offer Significant coverage and nobody on Misplaced Pages will have any reason to remove it. Exemplo347 (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

The Daily Dot had recently reported the problem with mainstream news sources referring to the incident as "fake news", arguing that people who actually believe in this theory would more likely believe in it. Instead the report referred this conspiracy as an "illogical speculation that got a bunch of people lathered up." Yoshiman6464 (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

That's how I see it too. The issue is that people don't fact-check things they see on the internet - luckily Misplaced Pages editors are required to provide evidence in the form of reliable sources which is why, unlike the rest of the internet, conspiracy theories are usually labelled as such pretty quickly here. Exemplo347 (talk) 16:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

• Crazy idea: How about experienced users stop reverting each other over a minor wording preference and figure it out on talk first? There's enough outright vandalism without this unnecessary back and forth. TimothyJosephWood 16:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Sad for Misplaced Pages. The first sentence claims it is "debunked" but only cites three articles that also claim it is debunked, without any substantial examination of the evidence that exists. Please remove this bias and just present facts. I don't use Misplaced Pages terribly often, and I certainly don't engage in editing or "talk" very often, but I wanted to point out how blatantly biased the first sentence currently sounds. 73.2.77.53 (talk) 08:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree... first sentence is dripping in bias... Cllgbksr (talk) 09:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I also agree, this article is very biased and should not take a stance. Pizzagate is not a theory, it is a linking of e-mails and social media posts that point towards a notion that there is a child molestation ring operating out of washington dc. The article does not present any of the posts as examples and counter examples (there are a few terrible "evidence" pieces if you want to call them that, likewise there are good ones). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.11.198.205 (talk) 13:38, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Conspiracy peddlers continue pushing debunked 'pizzagate' tale

• Alam, Hannah (5 December 2016), "Conspiracy peddlers continue pushing debunked 'pizzagate' tale", Miami Herald, retrieved 7 December 2016, One might think that police calling the motive a 'fictitious conspiracy theory' would put an end to the claim that inspired a gunman from North Carolina to attack a family pizzeria in Washington over the weekend.

We now have an actual police statement, and reporting by secondary sources, using this wording. Note the word "fictitious" in front of the phrase "conspiracy theory" in its first appearance in the article by the Miami Herald.

We should take our cue from these secondary sources and use similar wording to the Miami Herald and to the police. Sagecandor (talk) 16:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

As you've already seen, Sagecandor, I've added a citation to the word "debunked" - fingers crossed, that might settle down the silly argument over semantics that keeps taking place here. Exemplo347 (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Exemplo347, will try to bring the citations for that particular part to a total of maybe three. And also add citations to the introduction section as it now appears to satisfy the "contentious" part of WP:CITELEAD due to incoming Internet trolls. Sagecandor (talk) 16:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

2nd cite, 2nd quote for "debunked":

• William Douglas and Mark Washburn (December 6, 2016), "Religious zeal drives N.C. man in 'Pizzagate'", The Courier-Tribune, The Charlotte Observer, retrieved December 7, 2016, Though debunked by sources as diverse as The New York Times, Fox News Channel and the web hoax investigator Snopes, more than a million messages have traversed Twitter since November about #Pizzagate.

Sagecandor (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

3rd cite, 3rd quote for "debunked":

• Ruth, Daniel (December 6, 2016), "The lunacy of fake news", The Seattle Times, retrieved December 7, 2016, the dangerous and damaging fake allegations against a businessman and his employees simply trying to make a living have been repeatedly debunked, disproved and dismissed.

Sagecandor (talk) 16:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Request to add text to intro

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

It was determined to be false by the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia who called it a "fictitious conspiracy theory". The conspiracy theory was investigated and discredited as fake by fact-checking website Snopes.com, The New York Times, and Fox News.

References

1. ^ Cite error: The named reference hannahalam was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Cite error: The named reference snopes was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. Cite error: The named reference DCGunman was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
4. Cite error: The named reference douglaswashburn was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Please add above text as a 2nd paragraph for the intro.

Thank you ! Sagecandor (talk) 19:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done ...mostly. I modified it some, primarily to shorten it while conveying basically the same information. TimothyJosephWood 19:29, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Looks great thanks ! Sagecandor (talk) 19:30, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Note: anyone is free to disagree, so long as the argument is grounded in reliable sources, and not in original research and personal opinion, as in the collapsed section above. TimothyJosephWood 19:30, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Since when is Buzzfeed considered a credible source?

I've been a Misplaced Pages for years now, and I've never, EVER seen Buzzfeed listed as an acceptable source. So why is Buzzfeed, a content-rehosting blog, being given so much credibility here?

Solntsa90 (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Buzzfeed is cited once, and is accompanied by a PolitiFact citation which also credits BF with identifying the source of the claim. TimothyJosephWood 19:53, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Buzzfeed is the leading sentence, and is credited with 'debunking' the story--That alone leaves me suspect, as Buzzfeed is not a credible source for anything, even if Politifact re-hashes what they say (and Politifact is not entirely credible either). Solntsa90 (talk) 19:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a better one? TimothyJosephWood 19:58, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

This comes up so often that I suspect people aren't paying attention: . Buzzfeed is not just a "content-rehosting blog" these days: , . clpo13_(talk) 20:07, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

In general Buzzfeed easily meets the criteria of our reliable sources guideline. It has a high reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, an established editorial team, and is regularly cited by other highly reliable media. In fact just this morning I read multiple articles at the Columbia Journalism Review (just about the most reliable outlet there is) citing Buzzfeed on stories about fake news. Buzzfeed is regularly cited across Misplaced Pages and has withstood many challenges at WP:RSN. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:25, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Participation also appreciated at https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Fake_news_website#BuzzFeed_News Sagecandor (talk) 20:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Fair warning, it's a bit WP:CANVASSy to post that in a thread where nearly everyone has already agreed with a conclusion you are forwarding elsewhere. TimothyJosephWood 20:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

One link, to one location, about exact same discussion. Sagecandor (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, I saw the comment by Clpo13, and I read from Clpo13: "This comes up so often that I suspect people aren't paying attention" -- and so from Clpo13 I concluded this was a settled matter and not really up for repeated perpetual debate any longer. Sagecandor (talk) 21:25, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

In general Buzzfeed easily meets the criteria of our reliable sources guideline. It has a high reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, an established editorial team,

Is this a joke? Let me know, so I can respond accordingly. Solntsa90 (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

It's like you're not even reading the links given. clpo13_(talk) 20:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Because they're not. TimothyJosephWood 20:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It doesn't matter what source is used, I doubt you'll be satisfied since according to you the "jury is still out" about the conspiracy theory. If The New York Times isn't good enough for you nothing will be. There's no point in others having a serious dialogue. APK whisper in my ear 20:47, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Why don't you stop pretending like Misplaced Pages is free and democratic and just jump right away to "semi-protecting" this talk page like you guys usually do. 217.91.160.59 (talk) 12:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Omg. cOrneLlrOckEy (talk) 22:19, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

AR-15 Assault Rifle

This story lists one of the weapons as a "Colt AR-15 type Assault rifle." While this has been misreported in the media, the AR-15 is not an assault rifle. Assault rifles are selective fire weapons, which the AR-15 is not.

The weapon in question was apparently a true AR-15 as listed in an "incident report." It should probably be listed as "AR-15 rifle." "Semi-automatic AR-15" would be also technically correct, but unnecessary, since all AR-15's are semi-auto.

Note: there WERE a small number of select military AR-15 rifles produced, but the modern AR-15 is not select fire, and I believe the select fire models were only sold to the military and not resold to the public. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Archangle0 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

This all depends on whether it was a Colt AR-15, an Armalite AR-15 (which is definitely an assault rifle) or one of the many AR-15 variants - once again, we risk getting bogged down in pointless semantics here. Why not wait until you find a reliable source (presumably after any trial - I can't see how it's more than just a guess until then) that specifies exactly which rifle it was? Let's leave it there until you find one. After all, it's not exactly a story-changing detail.Exemplo347 (talk) 21:05, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

References

1. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-police-pizzeria-gunman-ar-15-rifle-handgun-43982089. ABC News. {{cite web}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); External link in |website= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)

The source is already provided. It's a Colt AR-15. Calling it an "assault" rifle is sensationalism.Archangle0 (talk) 05:08, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Other sources, including the screenshot of the police report shown in The New York Times, refer to it simply as an AR-15. I see no reason to change this at the present time.Exemplo347 (talk) 10:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank god they didn't refer to it as "big great dildo" then. 217.91.160.59 (talk) 12:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Suspect Name

Reminder: the individual arrested for the shooting is not WP:WELLKNOWN and is covered under WP:BLPCRIME unless convicted. TimothyJosephWood 20:59, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

The Washington Post has significantly more info that could be used in the article. The arrested individual does actually have a conviction: "has one conviction, for driving while impaired in 2013 in Salisbury. He has been arrested several times in North Carolina, once on a drug charge, in 2007". Sagecandor (talk) 21:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes he does, but none of those prior convictions make him WP:WELLKNOWN for the purposes of Misplaced Pages. I have already added some of this information into the article though. TimothyJosephWood 21:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay that makes sense, thank you. Sagecandor (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@Timothyjosephwood:Suspect has chosen to use his real name in a public interview with The New York Times to explain his action: "The Comet Ping Pong Gunman Answer's Our Reporter's Questions", also The Daily Beast reported on this development at "Pizzagate Gunman: 'I Regret How I Handled the Situation'". Sagecandor (talk) 23:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

WP has an obligation to be restrictive on this issue across the board as a matter of policy, partially because it helps uphold our fundamental principles, but also because it opens the Wikimedia Foundation to legal action if not adhered to. WP is WP:NOTNEWS, and although we want articles to be as accurate as possible, we take the long view, and it is perfectly acceptable to wait on a relatively minor detail, as far as an encyclopedic understanding is concerned, and see what comes of it.

All the average reader would gain from this is a name, which means nothing more than "a man" in any meaningful sense, because the person is not previously known to the public. We have an obligation to be conservative (in the literal, not political sense) in cases like these. TimothyJosephWood 23:49, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@Timothyjosephwood:Sure that all makes sense. However, those sources could be good to update the article, could paraphrase or quote the individual's intentions, without naming his name in the article. Sagecandor (talk) 23:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I will try to look more into them tomorrow. TimothyJosephWood 00:50, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment BLPCRIME merely emphasises the need to be judicious. The suspect's name has been reported by multiple sources and has granted an interview, under their own name. The latter is a public action, and we should have no problem with using their name. That man from Nantucket (talk) 12:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Torture threats to New York restaurant

• Rosenberg, Eli (December 7, 2016), "Brooklyn Restaurant Threatened Over Fake News 'Pizzagate' Conspiracy", The New York Times, retrieved December 7, 2016

Could be added to this article. Sagecandor (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that's relevant, I'll add it in now. Exemplo347 (talk) 22:18, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

It's been added to the article at the end of the "Debunked" section (it seemed like the best place for the info to go, to fit with the flow of the article) Exemplo347 (talk) 22:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe under "Comet Ping Pong shooting" somehow and make it a section about violence and also now threats of torture ? Sagecandor (talk) 22:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do is to create a section for reports of threats and harassment, and then combine that with the first paragraph of the "Comet Ping Pong shooting" section. I've read other accounts of harassment (mostly about Comet Ping Pong's neigbors). _Gravity 22:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

"Threats and harassment" yeah that sounds like a good section name. Sagecandor (talk) 23:02, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

TIME and New York Daily News have more info. Sagecandor (talk) 23:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

White supremacist

The article has this referenced claim, but it is not explained in the article how this conspiracy theory is related to racial minorities. Can this be improved? --Pudeo (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

That particular info in the article is backed up to two citations to sources and . Sagecandor (talk) 00:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I´m pretty new to wikipedia editing, but I would have never thought that a buzzfeed article and another article only referencing the buzzfeed article are considered appropriate evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C3:33CC:B057:88CD:3E75:82D:23A0 (talk) 13:14, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Michael G. Flynn dismissal section

This section needs expanding (see Michael G. Flynn#Presidential transition of Donald Trump for comparison). In particular, I think the fact that Flynn had previously promoted the PizzaGate conspiracy and that his father published similar rumors on social media (spirit cooking, Wiener fake news) should be mentioned in the article. All of this is mentioned at the Michael G. Flynn page and is relevant here. HelgaStick (talk) 00:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Suggested move

Suggest moving this over Pizzagate and including a hat note pointing to Battle of the Buffet#Pizzagate, since this seems to currently be fairly clearly the WP:PRIMARYUSAGE, and more so, is a stand alone article, and not a section in an article, the main title of which, readers seem more likely to search for. TimothyJosephWood 01:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. TimothyJosephWood 01:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support as per the arguments above. HelgaStick (talk) 01:58, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose a move to "Pizzagate" but would support dropping the brackets to make it "Pizzagate conspiracy theory." This would be a clear identification of the subject which also makes it clear that it's a conspiracy theory. This is the standard approach, see John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, September 11 attacks advance-knowledge conspiracy theories, and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories. Just calling it Pizzagate is not acceptable as it suggests an actual "-gate" type scandal where none exists. Fyddlestix (talk) 02:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Those examples are theories about events. This is a theory surrounding a place. You could have it be "Comet Ping Pong conspiracy theory" but no one calls it that. "Pizzagate" is the common name whether it's true scandal or not. And doesn't putting "conspiracy theory" in the title (without the unnecessary disambiguation brackets) sound like a little too much? (Pizzagate conspiracy theory is a debunked conspiracy theory started by a Twitter user described as a white supremacist and...) Emily Goldstein (talk) 04:02, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose a move to "Pizzagate" but would support dropping the brackets to make it Pizzagate conspiracy theory per Fyddlestix. Neutrality 02:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose a move to "Pizzagate" but would support dropping the brackets to make it Pizzagate conspiracy theory per Fyddlestix. Sagecandor (talk) 02:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose a move to "Pizzagate" but also support dropping the brackets. Other example: Moon landing conspiracy theories. --McSly (talk) 02:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Seems a lot like a disambiguation where none is needed, given that Pizzagate seems to be the overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME. In comparison, there is a legitimate moon landing a legitimate 9/11, but no legitimate Pizzagate. TimothyJosephWood 02:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Other version of Pizzagate has plenty of its own sources for same word Pizzagate: (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL). Sagecandor (talk) 02:43, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

And if you replace "Campbell Rooney" with "Reddit" you jump from 5k news hits to about a million. TimothyJosephWood 02:47, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

And if you look at Google Books you find that one hundred percent of results in book searches are all for the Battle_of_the_Buffet#Pizzagate. Sagecandor (talk) 02:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Because there's not been time in the past month to publish a book on the topic? TimothyJosephWood 17:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

And if you look at any social media, forum, or news site one hundred percent of what you'll find about "Pizzagate" is about the 2016 one. The current "Pizzagate" has only been in the news for about a month so there's not any books about it yet, that is an impossible standard to use in this case. Emily Goldstein (talk) 03:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)As the Southern Bard once said, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." Sagecandor provides links to prove his claims. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Counting search results isn't really an argument. This NYT article contains the words "Pizzagate" (and thus shows up in the search) but actually calls this phenomenon "the so-called Pizzagate conspiracy theory". Google also returns things that aren't even remotely RS for that query. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Your "reliable source" is now calling it "the so-called Pizzagate hoax" (old and current). What now? Emily Goldstein (talk) 09:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support "Pizzagate" got 12 views in October 2016, 21,729 in November, and 71,942 from 1 December to 6 December. There is only one "Pizzagate" article the other is a section of an article. There is no need for a disambiguation page. I'm sorry for the 0.5 people everyday who will have to make one extra click. Emily Goldstein (talk) 03:18, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

We don't make these decisions based on pageviews. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose moving this to Pizzagate. I would support putting a hat note in this article and having Pizzagate redirect here, as well as removing the parentheses. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Good number of sources call it Pizzagate conspiracy theory so that is a good title target for the page instead, just without the brackets. (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL). Sagecandor (talk) 04:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support As per argument raised by Timothyjosephwood --Donenne (talk) 04:39, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support only a move to Pizzagate conspiracy theory - As per other articles on conspiracy theories. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support only the name change to remove the parentheses - The words "conspiracy theory" are a vital part of this article's title. Exemplo347 (talk) 10:26, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Here is the breakdown of the current sources used in the article:

1. Miami Herald: Pizzagate tale, Pizzagate debacle
2. Courier-Tribune: Pizzagate, Pizzagate conspiracy
3. Seattle Times]: Pizzagate perverted propaganda, Pizzagate, phony Pizzagate claims
4. Snopes: Pizzagate, Pizzagate conspiracy theory, Pizzagate theories, Pizzagate/Comet Ping Pong social media investigation, “Pizzagate” rumors, Pizzagate controversy
5. Buzzfeed: Pizzagate, Pizzagate claims, “Pizzagate” Conspiracy Theory (in ad for another article)
6. Politifact:Pizzagate
7. Politifact: No mention of "Pizzagate" at all
8. BBC: saga of Pizzagate, term "pizzagate", Pizzagate
9. NYT: Pizzagate, Pizzagate theory
10. WaPo: Pizzagate, “Pizzagate” conspiracy board (referring to the subreddit), Pizzagate conspiracy
11. Salon: Pizzagate
12. CNN: Pizzagate
13. NYT:‘Pizzagate’ Hoax
14. Bloomberg: No mention of "Pizzagate" at all
15. NPR: No mention of "Pizzagate" at all
16. Washington City Paper: Pizzagate
17. MPDC: No mention of "Pizzagate" at all
18. ABC: Pizzagate, Pizzagate scandal
19. Politico: "#pizzagate" conspiracy, #pizzagate
20. Business Insider: Pizzagate story, Pizzagate conspiracy, #Pizzagate
21. NYT: Pizzagate, #pizzagate
22. ABC: "Pizzagate" conspiracy theory, #Pizzagate, Pizzagate
23. NYT: ‘Pizzagate’ Hoax
24. Daily Dot: Pizzagate Conspiracy, Pizzagate, #pizzagate

Somehow I lost three sources, (one was duplicated and I need to go back and find it). If someone can point them out I'll add them.

But overall, while some sources mention a Pizzagate theory, or Pizzagate conspiracy, only three mention "Pizzagate conspiracy theory" verbatim. 16 sources use Pizzagate as a stand alone term, only 3 who mention Pizzagate fail to mention it as a stand alone term, and five sources mention it only as a standalone term and never mention it with any qualifiers.

So Pizzagate is the a clear common thread in these sources by number of mentions, and "Pizzagate conspiracy theory" wins only slightly over "Pizzagate hoax" with three and two mentions respectively.

Finally per WP:DAB: Disambiguation is required whenever, for a given word or phrase on which a reader might search, there is more than one existing Misplaced Pages article to which that word or phrase might be expected to lead. (emphasis mine). In this case there is no other existing article, but only a section, and therefore no reason to add qualifiers to the title. Furthermore, if we are to treat the section as an article for these purposes, the guideline continues: If there are only two topics to which a given title might refer, and one is the primary topic, then a disambiguation page is not needed—it is sufficient to use a hatnote on the primary topic article, pointing to the other article. TimothyJosephWood 13:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that this list of sources supports "Pizzagate" over "Pizzagate conspiracy theory," as a great many of them - like most RS that have addressed this - clearly identify Pizzagate as a conspiracy theory. For example: the first sentence of your Miami Herald article notes that Police have called it "a 'fictitious conspiracy theory.'" This article (also from the Miami Herald) defines Pizzagate (again, in the first sentence) as a "a fake-news conspiracy." Same thing with your second source - the very first sentence of the article defines Pizzagate as " a fantastical conspiracy theory." Ditto for source number three, which clearly labels Pizzagate as an "elaborate conspiracy theory." The same appears to be true for the majority of the sources you linked: The BBC link (#8) also clearly labels Pizzagate as a conspiracy theory. So does the Washington Post source (#10). This list seems like evidence that "Pizzagate conspiracy theory" is by far the most accurate and NPOV option for the article's title. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Because there is a difference between naming a thing and describing a thing. I am listing instances where they referred to it as a name. From the Miami Herald, A popular New York restaurant has become the latest victim of a fake-news conspiracy about Hillary Clinton running a child sex ring out of a Washington, D.C., pizza joint. This is an extended descriptor, not a name. It is as supportive of "Pizzagate (conspiracy theory)" as it is of "Pizzagate (Hillary Clinton child sex ring conspiracy theory)".

I'm not arguing that it isn't in fact a conspiracy theory. I'm arguing that the common name is "Pizzagate" as opposed to "Pizzagate hoax," "Pizzagate conspiracy," "Fantastical Pizzagate conspiracy theory" or any of the other thousand ways descriptors can be attached unnecessarily. They are only unnecessary because disambiguation is only necessary to resolve ambiguity, of which, in this case, there is very little. TimothyJosephWood 16:57, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support move to "Pizzagate" as this topic has clear primary usage of the title. Lasersharp (talk)
• Oppose: Although news sources have referred to the incident as "Pizzagate", virtually all of them have described Pizzagate as a conspiracy theory. Unless there is proof that the conspiracy has some basis in reality (which doesn't), Pizzagate will always be regarded as a conspiracy theory. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 17:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Renaming Section "Debunked" to "Responses"

Although the media had debunked the conspiracy theories, I do not believe that the word should be a title of this section. The title "Responses" would be more accurate because the media had responded to the incident, debunking it. Also, I believe that the owner's response to the incident should also be included in that section, such as his interview with NPR on November 27, 2016 where he referred to the conspiracy theory as "an insanely complicated, made-up, fictional lie-based story" and a "coordinated political attack" Yoshiman6464 (talk) 03:13, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Could however have a separate section for "Responses". Also debunked by the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. Important to note it was debunked. That it was effectively debunked is a fact. This is not in dispute. Sagecandor (talk) 03:14, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support, as this would widen the scope of the section. This could also include responses to the shooting incident, including Flynn Jr.'s firing. _Gravity 04:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@FallingGravity:How about one section "Debunked" and another one "Responses" ? Sagecandor (talk) 04:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion, "Debunked" is very informal for a section title. "Responses" has precedent in Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories#Responses. _Gravity 04:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I was about to post the same thing too. In the "Sandy Hook" article, there is a "Response" section with both Snopes debunking and responses by Sandy Hook victims. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 04:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Alright, as long as it continues to say debunked prominently in the introduction. Sagecandor (talk) 04:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support As per argument raised by FallingGravity. --Donenne (talk) 04:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Use both - I'm OK with adding "responses," but since most of the responses are debunkings, we should be clear about that. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. The fact that the conspiracy had been debunked was mentioned in both the Lead Paragrah and the "Response" section. Debunking is a type of Response, not a separate meaning. To debunk something is to "expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)" - a response to that false myth. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 05:43, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Then I would ask that you self-revert your change back to the original consensus; this discussion has been open less than three hours. Being clear about the falsity of this is important, and the most important thing about the entire conspiracy theory is that it has been definitively declared false and debunked. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - "debunking" is more accurate than "response".Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Texas police investigating threats to pizzeria in Austin

• Betts, Kris (December 7, 2016), "APD investigating threats to local pizza business after fake news story", KVUE, retrieved December 8, 2016
• Odam, Matthew (December 7, 2016), "How Austin's East Side Pies became target of fake #pizzagate", Austin American-Statesman, retrieved December 8, 2016

Suggested sources to add to update article.

New development. So now real world impact with violence and threats of violence in Washington, D.C., New York, and now Texas. Sagecandor (talk) 07:04, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

How is this related? Pizza does not a PizzaGate make.That man from Nantucket (talk) 07:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Have you bothered to click on the links above and read the 2 articles? Sagecandor (talk) 07:32, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, though these are copycats, they are apparently unrelated to the first outside of the hashtag. Or are we writing about a meme now?--That man from Nantucket (talk) 08:02, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Copycats of what? These are all actual violence and threats of violence investigated by multiple police departments and reported by reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 17:42, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

This is why I think we should have a section on harassment reports, much like Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories#Harassment by conspiracy theorists. _Gravity 08:08, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Very much agree with this.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with FallingGravity and Volunteer Marek here. Sagecandor (talk) 17:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Debunked conspiracy theory

I've always found the language that "X is a false/debunked conspiracy theory" to be a bit overwrought, and most often seen on Misplaced Pages. Are there any conspiracy theories that are true? Debunked is better than "false" I supoose; the latter sounds like a double negative. Consider

Pizzagate is a conspiracy started in Sept. 2016 that tied a number of pizzerias and members of the Democratic Party to a child-sex ring. The theory has been soundly debunked by news media (strongest source fist) and law enforcement (list) says the theory is without merit. The theory occured amongst the backdrop of the US election.

.We are currently missing the "when" and are missing context. I'm proposing a shortened description, including when it started, followed immediately by a description of of thoroughly and by whom the theory was discredited. And then finally provide some context, which is sorely missing in the lead. The idea that this is bit related to the election is nonsense, but we don't see it.That man from Nantucket (talk) 08:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I disagree - Pizzagate has been reported as debunked in a wide range of reliable sources. It is important that Misplaced Pages articles do not give undue weight to points of view that are not supported by a single reliable source. In this case, an unequivocal statement that this conspiracy theory has been debunked, supported by reliable sources, is the only way to go. The alternative would be to give the impression that this might actually have some basis in fact (without any evidence to support that possibility). Exemplo347 (talk) 10:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

"Pizzagate is a conspiracy" doesn´t work, does it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Pizzagate appears to be the ONLY conspiracy theory on Misplaced Pages that is being described as "debunked" or "false". Funny, isn't it? I guess we give other conspiracy theories, such as the one regarding reptilians the benefit of a doubt. 217.91.160.59 (talk) 13:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

That is not true. There are many conspiracy theories that are properly described in our articles as disproved or without evidentiary support. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

What are some of your examples? The "Moon landing conspiracy theories" article mentions how the conspiracy had been debunked, but the word "debunked" doesn't appear in the lead paragraph nor has an entire section dedicated to debunking the conspiracy theory. The word "false" isn't even mentioned in that page too. The "Jade Helm 15 conspiracy theories" article only mentioned the word "debunked" once by Snopes; the word "false" is not mentioned in that page too. The Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories article mentioned that the theories were "falsely asserting that was not a natural-born citizen of the United States", and not a "debunked" conspiracy theory. In fact, the only time where the media's role in debunking the theory had been mentioned was in the "Release of the birth certificates" section, stating "These arguments have been debunked numerous times by media investigations", not in the Lead paragraph. Finally, the phrase "debunked conspiracy theory" only appeared in three wikipedia articles, with only one (this article) featuring the phrase in the lead paragraph. In conclusion, the IP user was only half-right, that this theory seems like it is pushing "false" and "debunked" far more than any other conspiracy article. However, the IP user is wrong asserting that Pizzagate is the "ONLY conspiracy theory" to be described by those terms. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 16:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

You will note that the common thread here is that conspiracy theories which make specific and actionable claims about living people, such as that Barack Obama was born in Kenya or that a pizza restaurant is a front for a child sex ring, are treated differently — that's because of the biographies of living persons policy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

This language does not match the WP:NPOV standards, and none of the sources given offer material proof against this because proof cannot simply be given. See Russell's teapot. For this reason I would motion that this should say "alleged", "unsubstantiated" or otherwise something to that effect. Another example of a silly conspiracy theory for which we have empirical evidence of its debunking is the chemtrails conspiracy, and that itself opens with the word "unproven". --Simtropolitan (talk) 17:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Of course it meets policy. You just refuse to read the policy. See WP:YESPOV, Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. It is an uncontested and uncontroversial fact among reliable sources that these claims are false, fabricated and malicious lies. Until and unless you or anyone else presents reliable sources which claim otherwise, this is not up for debate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

We go by Reliable Sources, not what other articles say or do. This dangerous fraud has been debunked, by police, by fact-checkers, by media from the left and the right. Sagecandor (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh I'm reading it, avoid stating opinions as facts, again, this is the kind of issue for which no contestable evidence exists. It is an allegation which cites leaked but confirmed communications between officials. It is an interpretation, it may be false, however again none of the material cited by these reliable sources actually addresses the language therein. This seems very heavy handed compared to the language addressing much crazier allegations which have been documented on articles on Misplaced Pages.--Simtropolitan (talk) 17:32, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Unless you have reliable sources saying that this is not a debunked false conspiracy theory, I believe this conversation is over. TimothyJosephWood 17:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

That these claims are false, malicious lies is not an opinion, it is a factual statement made by dozens of reliable sources. Your personal agreement or disagreement with these reliable sources, or your personal belief or disbelief in what they are saying, is not at issue here. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia based on reliable sources, and the reliable sources say this. Your problem is with the sources, and we can't solve that here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

What you are saying, is the definition of opinion and to address this as a personal agreement or disagreement goes outside the conduct of Misplaced Pages. This is not a matter of a personal belief, this is a matter of upholding Misplaced Pages's factual validity, which is to address why this conspiracy theory has even been put forward. I will leave it at that until further sources are addressed, but the language of this article as well as the discussion surrounding is very troubling in the scope of Misplaced Pages's purpose. --Simtropolitan (talk) 17:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The language of your own argument is troubling only in so far as it is vacuous, because it appears to consist only of your opinion of the sources provided by others, and no actual sources that back up what you are trying to say. The only meaningful definition of opinion, in this case, is making claims without sources, and since you have provided none, I will assume you have none. Now please stop wasting out time until you do. TimothyJosephWood 17:50, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid you have a fundamental misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages's mission, purpose and policies. When The New York Times publishes an article in its news section which makes a factual statement, Misplaced Pages does not treat that factual statement as an opinion. A reputable, fact-checked news source and anonymous Internet vigilantes are not given equal validity in Misplaced Pages's eye. We aren't an "alternative media" site and we aren't a place to spread debunked libelslander nonsense about innocent people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:54, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

We explicitly state that, for example, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are forgeries. We really aren't interested in how many websites claim they're true, we go by the preponderance of reliable sources and explicitly state that they're a false canard. This is a malicious campaign of fabrications designed to cause harm to living individuals, is devoid of any basis in fact, and has been explicitly described as such by reliable sources, up to and including police agencies. If this was something that happened in the past we would have an opportunity to discuss the matter from the point of view of historical moral panics, but since it's ongoing with actual threats made against actual people, we have no room to tiptoe around the central point for readers who come here to understand what's going on. It's false, and Misplaced Pages has no business assisting the spread of malicious rumors by granting them credence by omission or false balance. This is an encyclopedia, we're not obligated to take fringe ideas seriously: rather the reverse. Just because the credulous or the promoters of hate can edit Misplaced Pages doesn't mean the encyclopedia has to take them seriously. Acroterion (talk) 17:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the issue here is who decides that they are the arbiter of truth? Is it simply by how much media influence you have, how much money you spend on advertising or your editorial team, etc.? Solntsa90 (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

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