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This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Alyssa Pereira (December 21, 2016). "These were the most edited Misplaced Pages pages of 2016". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved December 22, 2016. The 2016 Presidential election sure brought the world a lot of stress. It also brought the world a lot of misinformation. That could be one reason why so many of the most edited Misplaced Pages pages of 2016 were politically related. ... 2016 United States election interference by Russia (641)

Shouldn't this be "alleged involvement"?

Since no evidence was provided for this particular conspiracy theory ? I also note that the article is highly biased towards one side here, without any criticism of lack of evidence to claims by supporters of this theory in the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:38, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

The sources are clearly cited and represented. There is evidence to support the statements and that is given.Casprings (talk) 15:44, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

It's not a theory; it's a conclusion. The CIA is not going to provide evidence to the general public. If you can find reliable sources that present another "side" (other than team Trump's apparently uninformed criticism of the government that he's about to lead), then feel free to add that content to the article.- MrX 16:11, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

It is an allegation made by the Washington Post based on an anonymous Obama administration official saying that was what the CIA told them in a briefing. That hardly makes it an objective fact. Marteau (talk) 16:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, it's a conclusion made by government officials reported by The Washington Post. It's right there in the lede of the the highly-cited Washington Post article in case you would like to read it.- MrX 17:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Words to watch. Sagecandor (talk) 17:55, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

From WP:ALLEGED: "Words such as supposed, apparent, alleged and purported can imply that a given point is inaccurate, although alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial; when these are used, ensure that the source of the accusation is clear."

This this case, US officials have alleged or accused the Russian government of interference in the election. "Wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined." This is the context that the words alleged and accused were created for. -Darouet (talk) 19:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

I'd agree that applies. And of course something being a "conclusion" doesn't prevent it also being an "allegation". It depends who's doing the concluding and what they're saying. The CIA is not a court of law. Nor indeed a body without its own agenda and own history of, let us say, interesting activities and propagation of outright falsehoods. N-HH talk/edits 19:22, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

There is no (U.S. recognized) court of law that adjudicates whether one sovereign power attempted to influence another sovereign power's presidential election. The CIA is tasked with figuring out whether it happened, and Congress and the President are tasked with determining what to do with that information.- MrX 21:12, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security.
• Joint statement from both Republican and Democrat Senators on the Armed Services Committee. These statements are quite clear. And notable for their authors in each and the joint authorship on each. To say, at the very least, "involvement" or "influence", is backed up by such conclusions from the bipartisan authors. Sagecandor (talk) 21:14, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

@MrX, Sagecandor, and N-HH: The CIA has many tasks, among them the overthrow of many governments in the last 65 years, and the propagation of disinformation to cover up these actions (as many CIA agents have later testified). The CIA is not a news organization or an encyclopedia, it's a clandestine intelligence service, and that's how we should approach it when noting any public statements it produces.

Furthermore, the existence or lack of existence of a neutral body to adjudicate allegations of election tampering from Russia cannot lead us to proceed from the wildly speculative assumption that any accusation should be considered true unless proven otherwise. -Darouet (talk) 00:00, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Which is why we go by reliable secondary sources. Sagecandor (talk) 00:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• "CIA’s primary mission is to collect, analyze, evaluate, and disseminate foreign intelligence to assist White House, the President and senior US government policymakers in making decisions relating to national security." If that is what they do, it is notable that the CIA told both the White House and Congress that Russia tried to influence the US election. They would be the agency responsible for knowing that information and providing that information to policy makers. The fact that they did so and it was reported by WP:RS is extremely notable.Casprings (talk) 00:08, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
  • What does this have to do with Sagecandor's linking to official U.S. statements as proof that Russian involvement is known, and not alleged? -Darouet (talk) 00:13, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
    • The article attributes the conclusion to the CIA, as it should. Readers have to decide on their own whether this is part of a disinformation campaign by the CIA, or if the CIA have actually found evidence implicating the Russian government in election tampering. If we use the best sources—those with a reputation for fact checking and objectivity—then our job is easy: present readers with the best information available, from a neutral point of view.- MrX 00:26, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
      • @MrX: would you support renaming this article to "CIA conclusion of Russian influence on the 2016 US presidential election? -Darouet (talk) 01:22, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
        • No. Not just the CIA. Not sure why people are saying it was just the CIA. Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security. Sagecandor (talk) 01:29, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
          • Darouet, I would not support that title. It lacks concision, and sources give various attributions including the CIA, NSA, the intelligence community, and American intelligence agencies.- MrX 02:25, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

@Sagecandor and MrX: The title of this article and your comments here all strongly imply these allegations are not merely allegations, but that Russia has interfered in the U.S. election, and we need to relate that fact. This is not known as a fact. By insisting on the current title, "Russian influence," you are seriously misleading readers. There has been enough discussion about this that it's not longer appropriate to assume you don't know the implications of the title of the article. -Darouet (talk) 01:41, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

I was fine with the prior title, "Russian involvement". Either is fine. Sagecandor (talk) 01:43, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not seeing much doubt expressed by sources that Russia at least attempted, and were probably effective in influencing the election. It's not reasonable to demote the factual assertions made by our sources to "allegations or theories" in the title (see WP:WEASEL) to cast doubt on this. A simple Google search shows the widespread use of the word "influence" by sources, far more so than "involvement".- MrX 14:32, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

That's the nature of an allegation. Something someone believes to be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lumbering in thought (talk • contribs) 00:04, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

The article is about "US government allegations of Russian ...". That should be the title. All we know for fact is that various arms of the US government (and some computer security companies with close ties to US intelligence) are putting out allegations via public statements or "anonymous official" leaks to the US corporate MSM. Many of the sources cited are merely opinion, speculation and conspiracy theory. I see plenty of articles discussing the lack of evidence but they are not represented here. Perhaps we need a separate article entitled "Lack of evidence for US government allegations ..." . Keith McClary (talk) 19:51, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

RSes aren't calling it "alleged" or "purported" or "supposed" or "claimed" or "accused". They're calling it interference/involvement. So that's what we do. Second guessing reliable sources based on our own analysis is blatant WP:OR. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:12, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

A bit of googling shows many do say "alleged" or "purported" or "claimed" or "accused". Calling it fact is the blatant OR. Keith McClary (talk) 01:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to not merge these two pages. _Gravity 18:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Democratic National Committee cyber attacks to be merged ---> into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election

I propose that Democratic National Committee cyber attacks be merged into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. I think that the content in the cyber attack article provides additional detail and can easily fit within the article on Russian influence. If there is too much content, I would suggest that the cyber attack article becomes a sub article of the Russian influence article. Casprings (talk) 20:03, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• I strongly support a reverse merge, or per FallingGravity, a merge into something like Cyber attacks and the 2016 United States presidential election. The Democratic National Committee cyber attacks are the major incident involved, and this whole article, I think unintentially (I do not doubt the good intentions of its creators), becomes a massive POV fork. -Darouet (talk) 20:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election is the wider topic. Very good idea. Democratic National Committee cyber attacks should be merged ---> into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. Sagecandor (talk) 20:08, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Changed to oppose below. Sagecandor (talk) 23:01, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. What about Podesta emails, Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee cyber attacks, and Guccifer 2.0? Neutrality 20:10, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Maybe a set of sub articles is a better solution to organize the information? Lots of content and this can be the umbrella?Casprings (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Definitely though Democratic National Committee cyber attacks should be merged into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. Sagecandor (talk) 20:14, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

@Neutrality, Casprings, and Sagecandor: I've long thought these articles should be combined into one comprehensive article. They don't make a lot of sense on their own. -Darouet (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Don't forget 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak, though I'm not sure how all these articles would mesh. _Gravity 21:04, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support - I was thinking the same thing, but we will probably have to condense material. Also support Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee cyber attacks, and Podesta emails if the 'Contents' section of the latter is significantly reduced. I think Guccifer 2.0 should remain an independent article.- MrX 20:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with MrX about merging all these into here at Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election and condensing some of the other ones. We don't need to discuss all the "content" of the leaks, etc. Agree with MrX that Guccifer 2.0 should remain its own article. The rest can all get merged into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. Sagecandor (talk) 20:33, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support - per above. Logistics will be a little tricky, but these definitely should be addressed together. Neutrality 20:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
• Against, Russian influence is alleged, not proven, keep the "cyber attack" myth as a smokescreen for insider whistleblowing separate.Keith-264 (talk) 20:47, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security. Sagecandor (talk) 20:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • The CIA’s Absence of ConvictionKeith-264 (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Joint statement from both Republican and Democrat Senators on the Armed Services Committee. Sagecandor (talk) 21:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
    • Keith-264 - A self-published blog has no place in serious discussion about merging content.- MrX 21:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
    • It's as credible as a CIA document these days.Keith-264 (talk) 01:31, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
      • @Sagecandor, MrX, and Keith-264: I don't think anyone - the American or Russian governments, Wikileaks or Guccifer, etc. would contest that the Democrats were hacked, i.e. subject to a cyber attack. Acknowledging that doesn't imply Russian government responsibility. Joint statements by U.S. senators on the other hand, while important to report, tell us nothing about the truth or falsehood of their statements, any more than political statements by politicians in literally any other country. -Darouet (talk) 23:03, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
        • But this joint statement does: Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security. Sagecandor (talk) 23:10, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
          • @Sagecandor: Can you explain what you mean? -Darouet (talk) 23:15, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
            • I mean it means this is an appropriate title for this article to discuss the widely covered topic. Sagecandor (talk) 23:17, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
              • No, my question is, in what way does the existence of the joint statement validate an article title that presumes something which is unknown? Are you saying that the Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security is as good as God's truth as far as wikipedia sources are concerned? Would you say the same of a Russian national security document and its conclusions? -Darouet (talk) 00:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
                • If such a hypothetical fictitious Russian national security document were as widely reported on from reliable secondary sources as this topic, then it too could have its own Misplaced Pages article. But now we're getting into hypotheticals. Sagecandor (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
                  • You answered the very last question I asked, which was practically an aside, and have now failed to answer whether you think statements made by US intelligence agencies should be treated as fact a half dozen times. Since you refuse to answer the question, it's fair to assume you do. Editing with that attitude is highly disruptive to this project. -Darouet (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
                    • You misrepresent what I said. The fact that they concluded as such, is notable and should be the topic of an article. Not saying it is inherently true. Just that it has gotten wide coverage in reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 01:29, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support, but merge to something like Cyber attacks and the 2016 United States presidential election. This would also include merging the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee cyber attacks article. _Gravity 21:25, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • @FallingGravity: I would encourage you to propose this name change. The current title is an egregious example of WP:POVTITLE and your simple suggestion would solve the problem. -Darouet (talk) 01:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
    • It's kind of hard here because this is a merger discussion. I guess we could make this a WP:RFC and vote on what should happen to this article, whether merge, rename, or stay the same. _Gravity 03:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Should keep it at this present title here, as references in all the articles point to same source of the cyberattacks. Sagecandor (talk) 21:27, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

    I think we should err on the side of caution because the Russian government hasn't confessed to pulling off the attacks. Generally we try not to imply guilt in an article's title per WP:POVTITLE. _Gravity 21:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

    • There is no (U.S. recognized) court of law that adjudicates whether one sovereign power attempted to influence another sovereign power's presidential election. From MrX, above at . Sagecandor (talk) 21:45, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

      • That may be an even better reason to be cautious, especially since none of this is proven, demonstrated, etc., and remains highly contentious. -Darouet (talk) 00:06, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support reverse merge – This page and the DNC page share a lot of contents, so merging makes sense. However, blaming the DNC leaks on Russia in the article title strikes me as a gross violation of WP:NPOV and WP:CRYSTAL. The proper article title would be something like "Information leaks in the 2016 US presidential election", it would merge the DNC / Podesta / Guccifer 2 articles and it would have a section on potential sources of such leaks, be they Russia, random hackers or disgruntled campaign members. It would also have a section on the effective or supposed influence that such leaks had on the election. — JFG 21:55, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I would oppose a reverse merge, as all the articles have referenced information pointing to a common cyberattack source. Sagecandor (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Would not support a reverse merge. This article provides the historical important fact that the Russian government (or at least US intel believes) directed efforts to elect Trump.Casprings (talk) 22:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Also oppose a reverse merge. Russia is indeed the culprit according to the government agencies charged with determining that.- MrX 22:34, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I add my voice to the chorus opposing a reverse merge for the reasons identified by the three editors above. Neutrality 23:05, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
    • Fine, I won't insist. Amazing how you all take for granted what some CIA operative leaks to the Washington Post… Every nation has their own propaganda efforts! — JFG 06:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
      • NOT just the CIA, per . Sagecandor (talk) 06:13, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Against - I think the DNC cyberattack has a different scope to this article. The scope of this article is much wider - it includes things other than hacking. Additionally, the DNC page includes the contents of them, while this page would only be concerned with the Russian involvement. Stickee (talk) 23:56, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support Reverse Merge as it's the large alleged event. BlueSalix (talk) 10:10, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support Reverse Merge per BlueSalix. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 15:23, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support merging Democratic National Committee cyber attacks into Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. Oppose reverse merge (whaaaa???) Oppose merging the Fake News article into this one.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:21, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

*Oppose (again), what's emerged on this thread is that this is a classic example of the propaganda model of assertions being parrotted and the parrotting being taken as evidence of notability. The exposure of DNC-Clinton Foundation corruption was an inside job because Craig Murray's assertion has the same standing of the CIA assertions. Keith-264 (talk) 16:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Keith, please try to stick to the topic, refrain from off-topic rambling, and avoid calling other editors propagandists. And you already put your !vote above, commenting again further down, with a second bolded "oppose," makes it seem as if you're trying to "double vote." Neutrality 16:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh I do apologise but it's getting harder to take this thread seriously. Thanks for the AGF and the sneer but I suggest that my comment was the most on-topic (sic) since the thread began. If you were paying attention, you would have realised that I was describing the process by which the CIA "revelations" are legitimised by the corporate media, rather than laughed off the front page with questions like "Evidence please?" I have no views about the other contributors, only the calibre of the comments (except for your unpleasant insinuation, that is). I didn't know that this was a vote and I don't care; I thought it was an expression of opinion and I had something to add. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment – Given the different proposals on merging and renaming (the article started as "Russian involvement", then "Russian influence", and now "Russian intervention"), it's probably best to set up an WP:RFC to vote on and discuss the different suggestions. _Gravity 18:35, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Democratic National Committee cyber attacks is a legitimate sub-page of Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election. The latter is a much bigger subject which includes propaganda efforts through RT TV and a lot of other things. This page is already too big. One does not need to dump everything into one page. This is simply to improve readability. My very best wishes (talk) 20:00, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose These discussions on basically breaking news are rarely a good idea. There's no reason this can't be revisited after the dust has settled and we have more than personal opinion and allegations to work with. TimothyJosephWood 20:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Clearly it's not clear which article should be merged into which other, if any. I support Timothy above and say we wait until the evidence is in. --DanielPharos (talk) 00:48, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Another suggested merger: Democratic National Committee cyber attacks be merged into 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak - discussion here. The main page Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election can be linked in the cyber attacks subsection of that article. 11Eternity11 (talk) 04:50, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose for the time present. Let's wait for the results of the review ordered by President Obama. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 08:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Merging it would only be appropriate if the DNC attacks were solely the responsibility of the Russians, when that is still an allegation and is still very much up in the air. Merging it would be saying that, according to Misplaced Pages, that was all a Russian thing, and we cannot say that at this point. Marteau (talk) 08:47, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose until dust settles per Stickee and Marteau. Depending on the outcome, a merger may be entirely appropriate, until all of the facts ore know it appears to be an endorsement of one side violating WP:NPOV - Scarpy (talk) 22:53, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose, multiple ongoing investigations by public sector and by fourth branch of government means all related articles will likely get expanded. Sagecandor (talk) 23:01, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose The scope of the DNC cyber attacks article is different from this article. This article has a much broader sweep with other added elements. There are a number of related articles besides these two, and each is topic specific. Keeping these seperate may be the best way to deliver the torrent of information coming forth from the media. And it is best to wait for the dust to settle to see what is worth keeping in these articles. Steve Quinn (talk) 08:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose This article is a large enough topic, 70k, without adding something else to it, especially since the other article is 35k long. --Frmorrison (talk) 15:26, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose the scope of this article is the alleged involvement by Russia in the US elections in general, whereas the DNC hacks is more about the release of unsavoury information from the DNC's internal documents. BrxBrx(talk) 02:44, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. This article is far too large to accommodate the cyber attack article now. Strongly agree that the cyber attacks and leaks should be summarized in this article though. gobonobo 06:00, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. This article focuses on a single perpetrator, Russia. The other article is needed to cover actions by others. Thundermaker (talk) 18:29, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - A merge would not be seamless. The article would become far too lengthy and give undue weight to the DNC cyber attacks when looking at the general scope. Meatsgains (talk) 04:46, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose the merge - This is important and deserves it's own page for people to learn from JonSonberg (talk) 20:13, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 December 2016

Close request from blocked user 11Eternity11 (talk · contribs) in favor of newer request below started on 21 December 2016.

Please see Talk:2016_United_States_election_interference_by_Russia#Requested_move_21_December_2016. Sagecandor (talk) 19:00, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Is Newsmax.com a reliable source ?

With this edit - is Newsmax.com a reliable source ?

Not seeing this info picked up by other sources ?

Can this be removed ? Sagecandor (talk) 00:28, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Removed by Geogene at . Sagecandor (talk) 00:32, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

It's back; per DS. But to answer your question on reliability: hell no. Geogene (talk) 00:33, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Geogene, it should be removed. Sagecandor (talk) 00:34, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Concur. Non-RS.Casprings (talk) 00:41, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree and have removed. The Newsmax piece was based on the same claim by Edward Klein that also circulated on TownHall and similar unreliable sites. As I wrote in a talk-page section earlier up the page, Klein is not a reliable source for factual statements like these. Neutrality 00:46, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

The Newsmax article was written by Ed Klein. Note that Klein is a columnist not a reporter for Newsmax hence it fails reliable sources. Some editors have argued that this type of column is an exception because it is a "news column," not an "opinion column." Note too that although it is not clear at first, Klein uses the expression "according to sources." If we accept it as a reliable source then we would have to be clear about that. TFD (talk) 01:09, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Newsmax is only reliable for its own opinion on its own article. It's "full blown right wing conservative bias." They are extremely partisan and in the same class as Breitbart, Infowars, and the Drudge Report. Their content borders on fake news, but done deliberately through extreme media bias. They really believe this stuff, and it can cost lives. They use the language of legitimate media, but without any type of fact checking that any real fact checking source would find reasonable. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:04, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Ironically, Media Bias/Fact Check does not appear to be a reliable source. It says by the way that Misplaced Pages is more reliable than the New York Times, which of course is the logical conclusion of their methodology: that the farther away from U.S. political orthodoxy one is, the less factually accurate one is. Media bias however differs from inaccuracy. It has to do with what issues one highlights and there is no such thing as unbiased media in that all media decide which stories to cover based on political interest. TFD (talk) 04:32, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Although I agree newsmax is not a reliable source, it is not because they are "conservative" or have a bias. A source's bias does not disqualify them, nor does the fact that a source may be partisan. Per WP:BIASED "...reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." That a source is "conservative" does not disqualify them, and your use of the term as a pejorative or as grounds to disqualify them only serves to reveal your bias. Marteau (talk) 10:56, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

It appears that they're working in a new feature "Factual Reporting" which better reflects our WP:RS. As for the site itself, the only legit coverage I've found is The Daily Dot, which just mentions its Chrome extension. The best place for further discussion is probably the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. _Gravity 02:22, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

• I agree that Newsmax is not a reliable source, however the MBFC website is just as bad. For example, they list IFL science as an unbiased, thoroughly researched outlet that reflects scientific consensus. The truth is, IFL science is rather notorious for their credulous, speculative treatment of scientific discoveries, presented under wildly speculative headlines and often flatly wrong headlines. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 21:39, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Before yall rail against Newsmax for not asking for talking points from the DNC, they noticed the contradiction the next day. http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/james-comey-james-clapper-russia-help/2016/12/16/id/764397/ Also it's possible Brennan is also spreading fake news.Lumbering in thought (talk) 12:50, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

This article title mis-frames the issue

Given that the election itself is the casting and tabulation of votes, the title is misleading. There's been no allegation and no proof that the tabulation of votes was interfered with Russian actors. Nor has there been any proof offered that voters themselves were coerced or bribed by Russian actors. Thus if there was interference, it was only in the destabilizing of the pro-Hillary MSM media narrative. And yes, that took place in large measure because of the WikiLeaks publications of the Podesta emails. But those email leaks have been attributed (by Julian Assange and other knowledgeable persons) to disgruntled Democrat persons. Thus, the entire premise of the contention that Russia "interfered" with the USA election is a MSM-driven fabrication aimed at helping Democrats recapture a media-driven framing of the materiality of what's what. That narrative broke down in 2016 via a combination of Red State voters flooding independently to social media, the effectiveness of Trump's tweets and rally(s) and also, the WikiLeaks revelations. And these points being true, it's not honest to say that Russia "interfered" with the election. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 13:09, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

'Election' is commonly understood to mean more than just vote tallying. It encompasses the entire process in which Russia tried to interfere by stealing and revealing information to shape public opinion against one side. To call it a fabrication of the main stream media is profoundly ignorant. In any case, articles are based on reliable sources, not the original research of editors.- MrX 13:29, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

If the True Believers of the 'Russia did it' narrative were to be intellectually honest (a prerequisite for choosing a valid portfolio of reliable source citations) they would have to admit that the word "interference" is being used by biased actors in the MSM and Beltway crowds to suggest that whatever may have taken place, a) it's worthy of a penalty and b) it achieved its intended effect illegitimately. But so far, the only things which have been alleged (with no release of fact-based government documents proving it - only surmises/contentions) is that Russia's assistance to certain "hackers" resulted in true information about the inner workings of the DNC's illicit activities and also, truth about the HRC campaign's additionally objectionable activities. So by calling it "interference", we are suggesting that the American voter is so stupid that they would otherwise have been led my the nose to vote Hillary, were it not for these leaks. Myself, I would call this article "Allegations of Russian-led improprieties during the 2016 USA presidential election cycle". But that's just me, being a stickler for accuracy. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 13:52, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Cites?- MrX 13:59, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be mention of the recklessness of the DNC and Hillary Clinton that contributed to the hack taking place? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.236.211.52 (talk) 14:09, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps, if you can find sources to support that claim.- MrX 14:55, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

So if someone breaks into your house but does not do anything that is not interference with your doors?Slatersteven (talk) 16:08, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Unless the gmail security mechanisms were defeated by an invisible "hack" then there would be proof that Podesta's email was "hacked" into. But given that there's not any facts about that in the news reports - only off-the-record 'conclusions', semi-official generalizations and MSM finger pointing, then by the preponderance of the known actual facts, which are a) it's Podesta's actual email, b) it came from gmail and c) it was passed to WikiLeaks, unless we're drawing unfounded inferences or taking sides in a partisan battle; there's not enough actual information in the sources being cited for a reasonable person to conclude against the most authoritative source, which is Assange and WikiLeaks itself. And he says he knows where the leaked emails came from and it's not the Russians. Why are we not giving that fact enough weight here? Assange's assertion is a fact and he has very high credibility on this point - much more than any of the chattering class in the MSM or the Beltway operatives who are pushing the 'Russia did it' narrative. The single most authoritative source says that Russia did not do it. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 19:25, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

It is a fact he says they did not pass him the information, it is not a fact they did not (only his claim). And the claim they did come from US intelligence agencies, and their quoted statements.Slatersteven (talk) 23:09, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually the initial version of the "Russia did it" theory was that they had hacked in to voting machines and would switch votes from Clinton to Trump. TFD (talk) 19:22, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Source? Sagecandor (talk) 19:25, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

TFD - I think that was one of the initial concerns being bandied about by the press before November 8th election day. But as Pres. Obama said in his final press conference (Dec. 16), there is no evidence that voting machines were hacked or tampered with. So the later conclusion is there is no evidence to support compromised voting machines. I also agree that Assange's claims does not hold water when compared to statements by a large number of U.S. intelligence agencies, which is supported by reliable sources. Assange is not the single most authoritative source. Especially when his policy and WikiLeak's policy is to never reveal their actual sources. ----Steve Quinn (talk) 01:49, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

It does not matter what Assange says. The reality is that no one has seen the intelligence information, so there is no independent assessment of its reliability. It could be that they know Putin was behind the hacks because they have hacked into his email and are wiretapping his phone, which they did with Angela Merkel. TFD (talk) 02:22, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement only, and are not for engaging in discussion of off-topic matters not related to the main article. User pages are more appropriate for non-article-related discussion topics. Please do not use this page as a discussion forum for off-topic matters. Sagecandor (talk) 02:24, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

I think this section started with an off-topic matter that needed to be addressed. And I am not seeing anything here that is off-topic that doesn't need to be discussed. These are concerns that are out there - some people don't believe the mainstream press concerning the intelligence reports, hacked or tampered with election equipment is a current concern being discussed in the current news cycle - including Obama's speech, and some think Assange's recent denial has credibility. This is all related to the 2016 United States election interference by Russia. Just because my view is - reliable sources accurately reflect the intelligence community's conclusions and that Julian Assange cannot credibly deny or confirm any source - this does not prevent other views from being presented. I haven't seen that happen since I have been on Misplaced Pages. Steve Quinn (talk) 22:28, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Can we get rid of the 2016 in the title?

I don't think know of any other interference. Why have the 2016 in the title. A title that simply read United States Election interference by Russia would be shorter and better. Casprings (talk) 14:44, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Except that it was (as far as we know) only in 2016, removing the date will imply it has happen ed before.Slatersteven (talk) 16:09, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I'd like to keep the year in the title, especially in light of similar events in other years like as per Reuters, "Russian hackers seized control of the Pentagon's unclassified email system in 2015", which could also deserve its own separate article now. Sagecandor (talk) 16:57, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I support keeping the date. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:05, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I also think it is necessary to keep "2016" in the title to differentiate when this actually happened, as compared to other hacking events during other time periods. Steve Quinn (talk) 01:51, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Obama seems to think it may have happened before. He has ordered a full review into hacking aimed at influencing US elections going back to 2008. Marteau (talk) 00:02, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

If there is a history, it seems like even a better title. Where else would that information belong? Casprings (talk) 00:07, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Change 'election' to 'campaign' in the title?

It would be more precise to say 'campaign' rather than 'election'. The latter, even if it can be an umbrella for anything, necessarily evokes the actual casting and counting of votes, and given that this article is NOT about the claims of voting machine hacking that were made earlier, it would be logical to do everything possible to clear that up.79.169.98.40 (talk) 22:52, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

I would be against this, as most sources refer to the fact that it was an intention to interfere in the election, referring generally to influencing public opinion through the information obtained by the espionage operation. Sagecandor (talk) 22:54, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Seems a reasonable request to me.Slatersteven (talk)

I don't agree with changing the wording to "campaign". That appears to me to be inaccurate. It seems all the relevant coverage is about attempts to influence this last U.S. "election". I am not seeing how "campaign" can be interchanged with that. Steve Quinn (talk) 22:41, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Steve Quinn, agree the use of 'campaign' would not quite be correct, but I think the use of 'election' is borderline-misleading (makes people think the voting-machines were tampered with), so my suggestion is to use "Russian interference with the 2016 election cycle in the United States" ... or to include the impact of quasi-NGOs such as WikiLeaks, and propaganda both covert and open in the form of endorsing candidates and such, the topic-area could be broadened to "International influences on the 2016 election cycle in the United States" using almost the same model as International reactions to the United States presidential election, 2016 (except that the reactions-article is about post-election stuff only whereas the use of '2016 election cycle' also permits talking about campaigns and pre-campaign influences). 47.222.203.135 (talk) 03:29, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I think you make a good case for changing to 'election cycle. If using only the word 'election' does in fact mislead people into thinking this is about tampering with voter machines - then this would be appropriate. Let me get back to you on the other stuff. Your comments do make sense. For myself, I am just trying to determine what the scope of this article is (or could be) in relation to your comments. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 07:09, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Does article have to be in navbox to have the navbox on the page ?

Navbox removed with edit summary: (Article is not in navbox).

Article seems directly relevant to topic of the navbox.

Does article have to be in navbox to have the navbox on the page ?

Sagecandor (talk) 00:44, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes. See WP:BIDIRECTIONAL. I will say though that I have seen JFG remove links from nav boxes that, in my opinion, should not be removed. I don't think that's the case here though.- MrX 00:51, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

It would seem the navbox {{Donald Trump}} is directly relevant to this page and should be included. Sagecandor (talk) 01:04, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, is it relevant to {{Hillary Clinton}} then? {{Democratic Party (United States)}}? {{Central Intelligence Agency}}? Can't put it everywhere… — JFG 01:10, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Certainly if we include this one we can also include the first one you mentioned, yes. Sagecandor (talk) 01:14, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, I like to keep navboxes cleanly organized and on point. I have no strong opinion whether this particular article should be in the {{Donald Trump}} navbox. I do think it should be in the {{United States presidential election, 2016}} navbox though, will add now. Not so sure about {{Hacking in the 2010s}} because the security breaches now attributed to Russia are already mentioned there (DNC and DCCC). — JFG 01:08, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Blatant SYNTHESIS

Tump's transition team dismissed the CIA's conclusions, stating: "These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction." @SPECIFICO: edited Misplaced Pages to read: "The statement falsely said that those at the CIA who concluded Russian interference in the election, were the same individuals who asserted in 2003 that Iraq leader Saddam Hussein was in possession of weapons of mass destruction." As evidence, SPECIFICO cited this 2015 interview with Michael Morell, which has nothing to do with Trump or allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 election but in which Morell acknowledges "the administration intentionally misrepresented intelligence" on Iraq's WMD. SPECIFICO's edit is synthesis and original research of the crudest and most blatant variety, and needs to be reverted immediately. Note that SPECIFICO is not even good at this: Morell briefed President Bush on Iraq, and then became Director of Central Intelligence under Obama, so citing him only reminds us that the CIA hasn't changed much since 2003—while Morell's admission that the CIA intentionally lied in the past is only likely to reinforce Trump's claim that we should be skeptical of the Agency's conclusions. The thrust of Trump's argument relates to the CIA's long history of institutional intelligence failures—from the Iranian Revolution to 9/11—but if SPECIFICO wanted to nitpick the literal meaning of Trump's statement, then they should have cited Glenn Kessler: "Trump's complaint about this semi-ancient history is a bit odd because a) the intelligence analysts who worked on Middle East WMDs are not going to be the same as analysts focused on Russian cyber-behavior; b) the intelligence collection for hacking in the United States by overseas powers would be different from assessing illicit weapons programs in the Middle East; and c) reforms were put in place after the Iraq War to make it harder for suspect intelligence to bubble up to the top ranks without careful scrutiny." (Because this type of editing is typical for SPECIFICO, SPECIFICO's actions need to be scrutinized much more closely than they have been—not because SPECIFICO is a POV-pusher, but because so many of their edits display such an obvious lack of basic competence).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:48, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

No need for the ad hominem here in comment above, can just stick to content without discussing individual contributors. However, we would need a secondary sources confirming "falsely", rather than doing our own research here. That part I agree on. Sagecandor (talk) 02:52, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

::If SPECIFICO didn't have a long record of comparable behavior—all under the aegis of "clarify" or "conform to cited source"—I wouldn't raise the issue. At this point, however, it is certainly a very real concern that SPECIFICO cannot be trusted to accurately convey what sources say.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:00, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

This isn't the place for that. WP:NPA and ad hominem. Suggest you strike the comments relating to a particular editor with <s>strikeout code</s>. And focus on the content complaint, itself. Sagecandor (talk) 03:02, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks to FallingGravity for fixing this, using Kessler instead. I'm glad this was resolved quickly.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:28, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

@TheTimesAreAChanging:2nd time: Suggest you WP:REDACT the unneeded WP:NPA, above. Sagecandor (talk) 03:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

@TheTimesAreAChanging: Seconded. Retract the personal attacks. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 04:01, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

@TheTimesAreAChanging: No need for this.Casprings (talk) 04:23, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

SPECIFICO has previously alleged that I "lack ... emotional maturity," engage in "mansplaining," promote "paranoid conspiracy theories" (over an SPI, of all things!) and am "obsessed with animus and revenge"—and that's just the tip of the iceberg—all under the guise of examining my editorial conduct, and while emphatically denying that any personal attack occurred. I've kept it much more civil than that, but I think the same rationale applies. I'm warning SPECIFICO that from now on I will be making a list of these kinds of edits, and if the list gets long enough, I will be pushing for another topic ban to complement SPECIFICO's Mises Institute topic ban. That said, I have stricken the comments above—while still fully endorsing them—to keep this talk page focused on the article.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:26, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

@TheTimesAreAChanging:3rd time: This article's talk page is not the place for this. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because you are called out for WP:NPA, please don't respond with yet even more ad hominem. This talk page is for suggesting ways to improve this article, without referring to individual contributors as the vast majority of the comments. Sagecandor (talk) 04:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

You're the one sucking us deeper into this quagmire; I just wanted to warn editors to be vigilant. I certainly shall not be responding here again.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:33, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

You've now mentioned an individual contributor's name thirteen times, in a discussion that could have taken place without one. Sagecandor (talk) 04:37, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Opening change

Strongly disagree with this opening change .

The intro should be at least a good three or four paragraphs, judging by the length of the article.

It should concisely summarize the entire article per WP:LEAD.

This was way too drastic. Sagecandor (talk) 05:12, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

I am cool with that. I just think it is too long and you don't need a blow by blow of dates. What key facts do you think are missing now? Casprings (talk) 05:18, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe you could self-revert it back and we can trim it down from there? Sagecandor (talk) 05:20, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Would you care if we got one other editors thoughts? If they think it should go back, I would be happy to do so. Casprings (talk) 05:39, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with getting rid of the excessive number of dates and excessive blow-by-blow. But I do think the lead's reference to "interference" is a bit oblique; we should be explicit in saying that the mode of interference was primarily the cyberattack and leaks. I also think Putin's putative role is worth a short mention. So a version intermediate between the long and short versions would most appeal to me. Neutrality 05:50, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Copy edited intro, trimming dates and blow-by-blow, and keeping Putin role, as intermediate version. . Better? Sagecandor (talk) 07:37, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, this looks way better. Casprings, are you amenable to this? Neutrality 18:53, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

bipartisan letter issued on December 18 ?

This change says "bipartisan letter issued on December 18" ?

The letter was released on December 11, seen at http://www.armed-services.senate.gov/press-releases/mccain-graham-schumer-reed-joint-statement-on-reports-that-russia-interfered-with-the-2016-election

Was there a 2nd, newer bipartisan letter ?

Or is The New York Times referring to the first one, and there was no 2nd one on December 18 ? Sagecandor (talk) 05:16, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Ah, I see I am mistaken. New, 2nd letter: Schumer joins McCain in call for independent probe of Russian hacking. Trying to find an actual copy of the document itself on a .gov site. Sagecandor (talk) 05:23, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Full text of the 2nd letter . Sagecandor (talk) 05:29, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Yep, this is a second follow-letter. Neutrality 05:33, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah cool thanks no problem. Sagecandor (talk) 05:34, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Title change proposal: Russian espionage and disinformation targeting the 2016 United States election

I'd propose this article be renamed "Russian espionage and disinformation targeting the 2016 United States election." The terms used, interference, intervention, influence, etc are too general and when used as umbrella terms they dilute what's documented by the WP:RS. - Scarpy (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Though that is accurately what happened, a vast majority of the WP:RS sources use the words "election", and "interference", the most out of all the descriptors. Let's keep the title short and not large and burdensome. Sagecandor (talk) 00:35, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

The proposed title is not very concise, so I'd be reluctant to support such a change. The current title seems to suffice. Dustin (talk) 03:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Both the proposed title and the current title are egregiously POV. We don't know who hacked the DNC.

Sagecandor, unless you have access to information that none of us in the public are privy to, you don't know if there was Russian interference in the US Presidential election. Reliable sources are reporting on claims made by American intelligence and government figures, and on denials by the Russian government. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:21, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Please don't make insinuations or assumptions in reference to individual contributors, and instead keep the discussion focused on content. Sagecandor (talk) 18:34, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Sagecandor, I made no personal attacks or insinuations, and I don't see how you could possibly interpret the above as a personal attack. But now that we're on the subject of you, I am interested to know how a new editor is so familiar with Misplaced Pages policies, noticeboards, arbitration, article deletion procedures, etc. Forgive me, but something just doesn't click here. Maybe you can clear this up for everyone here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:42, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Let's stop the off-topic accusations and inquisitions, please, thanks. This article talk page is for talking about improving this article. Let's discuss that together, thanks. Sagecandor (talk) 18:43, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Let me just come out and ask you the obvious question: how do you know that Russia hacked the DNC? We don't have reliable source backing for that claim, despite the title of this article implying that we do. You took very quick offense at my above statement, that the origin of the hack is not publicly known, despite accusations that have been leveled by various American intelligence officials and politicians. It's just strange to me that you took such personal offense at a comment that wasn't a personal attack, and your touchiness reminded me of your curious editing history - so forgive my asking. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:51, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

The proposed title is too verbose in my view. WP:TITLE advises to use titles that are concise and natural.- MrX 18:47, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

@MrX: Assuming I remember my English, it's a more common way of speaking to start the title with an adjective (Russian) rather than suffixing with an adverb and noun (by Russia). - Scarpy (talk) 09:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Scarpy: I agree that starting the title with "Russian" would be an improvement. The part I object to is "espionage and disinformation targeting" which can be concisely written as "interference in (or 'with')".- MrX 12:18, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't know anything, other than what I've read in secondary sources. We should go by what is documented in the majority of reliable sources about the subject. Sagecandor (talk) 19:24, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, and those reliable sources report on claims made by American intelligence officials and politicians. So unless our policy is to trust claims made by the CIA and FBI as fact, this article's title is POV. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:28, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

No, not just "American intelligence officials and politicians", but ALL the "intelligence officials" in the entire intelligence community, 17 intelligence agencies, and now, including the FBI. . Sagecandor (talk) 19:46, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

So are you saying that we should treat American intelligence agencies as reliable sources here on Misplaced Pages? To me, that would seem like an incredible change in policy. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:06, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth. Please don't assume what I am thinking. I am saying it is not just a few "American intelligence officials and politicians". Sagecandor (talk) 21:00, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

It's hard not to come to conclusions when you strongly imply something. The important point is this: reliable sources are reporting on claims made by American intelligence officials and politicians. For the most part, reliable sources are not saying that these claims are true. That means that this article should not treat the claims as if they were true, and in particular, the title of the article should not suggest the claims to be true. Do you agree? -Thucydides411 (talk) 02:55, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Nope. Wrong. As our new leader friend says. Wrong. Not claims. Conclusions. Not by random individual officials. By the entirety of the whole of all of the intelligence community. All 17 agencies, plus the Department of Homeland Security, plus the FBI, all coming together to agree on the same conclusion. Sagecandor (talk) 03:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe it would help this discussion to clarify the status of the information. Did any reliable source say that there was 2016 United States election interference by Russia? --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:03, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Getting dizzy going in circles here. Agree with Timothyjosephwood, below. Sagecandor (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay, Sagecandor, now you're just confusing me. A second ago, when I asked you if American intelligence agencies count as "reliable sources" for Misplaced Pages, you accused me of putting words in your mouth. But now that I ask you if reliable sources have stated as a fact that Russia carried out the DNC hack, you say that US intelligence has come to that conclusion. You seem to want to dance around this issue. American intelligence agencies (nor Russian intelligence agencies, or any other government spy agencies) do not count as reliable sources. You can't say you're not claiming they're reliable sources on the one hand, but on the other hand cite them as reliable sources. -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:47, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)From your response, it looks to me like the discussion is approaching the point that no reliable source has said that there was 2016 United States election interference by Russia. If that's the case, then the title is implying something that is not verifiable per WP:V. We might then consider changing the title to the less problematic and more concise form: 2016 United States election and Russia. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:54, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

We have a multitude of reliable sources saying this. Sagecandor (talk) 05:08, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Then quote an excerpt here from one of them and give a link to the reliable source that makes that statement. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:12, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Let's focus the move discussion on the move discussion section, above, on this page. Sagecandor (talk) 05:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

From your response, it looks to me that you don't know of any. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:22, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Wrong. But from this discussion, doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and doesn't seem likely to progress to a constructive outcome. Sagecandor (talk) 05:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

That's enough of this for me. Too bad. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:35, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

For some reason the two accounts above seem to be ignoring the multiple other independent entities that came to the exact same conclusions as the 17 intelligence agencies did, months beforehand. Sagecandor (talk) 05:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Seriously ⇨ WP:CONCISE. TimothyJosephWood 20:11, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Agree with Timothyjosephwood, thank you. Sagecandor (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
    • This is a lazy argument. We're discussing a difference of 28 characters (79 to 51). WP:CONCISE says "The goal of conciseness is to balance brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the subject area." Someone not familiar with this topic could conclude from the current title that accusations of hacking voting machines were mad or something like that. The term "interference" is too vague. Vague titles are not encyclopedic titles. - Scarpy (talk) 09:00, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, it doesn't take much effort to make obvious arguments. The title is already too long, and making it even longer isn't a solution. Above and beyond that, (and we really should have an essay on this), these extended arguments that always pop up on articles about unfolding and especially politically charged articles (and has already happened a few times here including a brief move war requiring protect) are nearly always a complete waste of time. Whatever title individuals happen to prefer at the moment, which is usually only a marginal improvement one way or the other, are just as likely to be obsolete in a month as anything else. So have this discussion in a month, when it will almost certainly be more clear what exactly it is we're talking about. TimothyJosephWood 13:31, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Note that the title could be made more concise and address criticisms here by making the change to 2016 United States election and Russia. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:04, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Bob K31416: That proposed title would be an improvement. @Timothyjosephwood: I imagine that you before all others would be the first to recognize that a concise but misleading title is far worse than a verbose and accurate one. -Darouet (talk) 15:35, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't see this in terms of verbosity and misleading...ness (words?). It is a compromise between verbosity and being WP:PRECISE. Additionally, being somewhat more vague does't actually make your title any less precise, so long as there are no other closely related topics that could be easily confused by your given title. 2016 United States election and Russia probably easily satisfies this. TimothyJosephWood 15:43, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

So far, it looks like me, Darouet, and Timothyjosephwood support a proposed change of the title to 2016 United States election and Russia. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:50, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that is terrible proposal. This article is not about the two subjects "'2016 United States election" and "Russia" as the conjunction would imply. The article is about Russia's interference with the election.- MrX 16:49, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Using "and" is a routine way of making a connection between two subjects in a title. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:10, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. It's just really bad writing. The connection between Russia and the US election is interference, not "and". - MrX 17:18, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinions but I don't see much backing them up. BTW, here's an example of a Misplaced Pages article that uses "and" to connect two subjects in the title, Constantine the Great and Christianity. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:32, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Prove to me there's not a big purple gorilla sitting in my bathtub right now. I'm not sure what hypothetical example source would be satisfactory at this point. Sagecandor (talk) 17:45, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Thucydides411: In terms of disinformation, the Trolls from Olgino seems well documented to me. In terms of espionage, CrowdStrike, the company the DNC called in when they suspected a breach published their results. It's as detailed as the actual exploits used and the indicators that tied them back to Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear. CrowdStrike's conclusion was later supported by Fidelis, Mandiant, SecureWorks, ThreatConnect and the editor of Ars Technica: https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/ - Scarpy (talk) 09:00, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Scarpy: Crowdstrike's statements are notable, but it is a hired firm with links to the American intelligence community. Treating its statements as a source of truth is a major breach of ordinary editorial policy. -Darouet (talk) 15:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

There's, at least, three different definitions of reliable source being conflated in this discussion. (1) A reliable source as a publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (2) a person or organization that's reliable on a given topic (3) a source that provides the requested evidence of Russian intelligence agencies breaching the DNC for the purpose of answering the repeated requests for it on this talk page. I'm only providing (3) here because that's what was asked for in this discussion. If you want to insulate that very specific and detailed evidence that CrowdStrike provided in this report is a fabrication because they have "links to the American intelligence community" (which, by the way, you have completely failed to document) then I will use your argument against you. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Scarpy (talk) 16:32, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

If it's of any help in this discussion, note that for the purpose of writing a Wikpedia article, a reliable source is one that can be put into a citation. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:46, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect, stated the leak of emails in the 2016 US elections was part of a series of cyberattacks on the DNC committed by two Russian intelligence groups. Sagecandor (talk) 17:30, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

References

1. Goodin, Dan. ""Guccifer" leak of DNC Trump research has a Russian's fingerprints on it". arstechnica. Retrieved June 16, 2016.
2. Shieber, Jonathan; Conger, Kate. "Did Russian government hackers leak the DNC emails?". TechCrunch. Retrieved July 26, 2016.
3. Rid, Thomas. "All Signs Point to Russia Being Behind the DNC Hack". Motherboard. Retrieved July 25, 2016.
4. "Wikileaks posts nearly 20,000 hacked DNC emails online". Providence Journal. July 22, 2016.
5. "DNC email leak: Sanders calls for new leader as Clinton camp blames Russia". The Guardian. July 24, 2016.
6. "DNC email leak: Russian hackers Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear behind breach". The Guardian. July 26, 2016.

I oppose a rename to the vague "2016 United States election and Russia" — that's unclear and not very descriptive, as others have noted, that isn't how the reliable sources have framed it. I oppose (mildly) a move to "Russian espionage and disinformation targeting the 2016 United States election" — this is, I think, unnecessarily lengthy. I support a move to Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, as it reads better. Neutrality 17:25, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Neutrality, and oppose this vague title proposal change, and support move to Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. Sagecandor (talk) 17:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

From WP:NPOV , "*Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc."

Russian interference in the 2016 U. S. elections is a widespread view in U.S. intelligence agencies , but it hasn't been stated as a fact in reliable sources or in the text of our article. So I think we should keep that in mind when considering an appropriate title. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:16, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Again left out NOT just U.S. intelligence agencies, but also numerous cyber security firms. Sagecandor (talk) 18:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

No problem, I'll add it to my above comment. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:25, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

We can stop including U.S. intelligence agencies in any discussion of reliable sources. There's no reason to mention their statements in this context, because they're not reliable sources. Now, is someone here arguing that cyber security firms are reliable sources? I think we should stick to reputable media, and almost all reputable media stories on the subject describe "Russian hacking" as a claim that's been made by American intelligence agencies, rather than as a fact. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Comment again ignores assessments of Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect. Sagecandor (talk) 19:26, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Neither the intelligence agencies nor the cybersecurity firms have published any reports on this that can be cited, much less something that passes other Misplaced Pages criteria for a reliable published source. The published reliable sources have not stated the results of these organizations as fact. Also, in the text of our article the results of these organizations have not been stated in Misplaced Pages's voice as fact. So I don't think we should imply in the title that it is a fact.

That will be the last thing I say in this discussion, so good luck to everyone. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:54, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

The conclusions of Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect -- have indeed been covered by numerous WP:RS secondary sources. Sagecandor (talk) 22:01, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Sagecandor, you repeatedly confuse two different things: whether reliable sources state as a fact that Russia hacked the DNC and leaked the emails (they do not, generally, state this), and whether reliable sources report on claims made by U.S. intelligence and certain cybersecurity firms (reliable sources do report on those claims). That distinction is very important, because the current title strongly suggests that Russian interference in the US election is a fact, when it is rather something that various organizations and people have claimed. Reliable sources report on those claims, which is very different from reliable sources stating unequivocally that those claims are correct. The current title, as well as your proposed title below, are therefore POV. -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:11, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

It's the conclusion of 17 intelligence agencies and Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect -- this is not a single individual person who performed a crime. This was another sovereign nation state. We won't ever get an opinion from a court of law. The fact is it is the conclusion of all of these bodies and that is the single strongest conclusion we will get, most likely. This is not opinion or POV. This is concluded analysis. Sagecandor (talk) 04:14, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Sagecandor, you don't understand what WP:RS means. It's really as simple as that. There could be 100 intelligence agencies that all claimed the same thing, and 20 cybersecurity firms, but as long as reliable sources (e.g., reputable newspapers) did not report those claims as fact, then we would not be able to treat them as fact here in Misplaced Pages. Unless you can show that reputable newspapers generally state that Russia conducted the hacks and leaked the documents, then we can't treat those claims as fact. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:44, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Not sure why the ignoring here the conclusions of the Cybersecurity firms, including CrowdStrike, Fidelis Cybersecurity, Mandiant, SecureWorks, and ThreatConnect. They are not the United States government. These are reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 12:44, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@Thucydides411: this was covered in Wired: https://www.wired.com/2016/07/heres-know-russia-dnc-hack/- Scarpy (talk) 07:59, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Fun Fact

Here's some background information on Ken Dilanian's—and Scott Shane's—past history of collaboration with the CIA. It's probably no coincidence that Dilanian helped break the news of Putin's alleged involvement for NBC—just as it's no coincidence that the CIA first leaked this story to its favorite newspaper (The Washington Post).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:15, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Well this is synth, so not sure what you're getting at. We can't add it to the article. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 03:43, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with MjolnirPants. Sagecandor (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Dilanian himself is cited 8 times here. While it is unclear what edit should come out of this "fun fact", it is stuff like this that makes me wonder what the R in RS actually stands for. (RS seems like an unfortunate choice: it should always have been WP:STBS — "sources to be taken seriously (for whatever reason)" — or something close to that.) Guccisamsclub (talk) 10:42, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the point is that since this reporter has published stories from the CIA which were found to be false, that it could be the Russian interference story may also be false. We of course cannot say that as it would be synthesis. However we should present the story the same way that news outlets do, i.e., beginning "according to...." No doubt we will know the truth in due course. There is no deadline. TFD (talk) 10:48, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 21 December 2016

The request to rename this article to Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections has been carried out. If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

2016 United States election interference by Russia → Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections – This title conforms to the five criteria of WP:TITLE more than any other proposal that I've seen. It lacks ambiguity, reflects the coverage in reliable sources, and is is written in a such that a reader could easily find it via search and have an immediate understanding of what the article is about. - MrX 18:49, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with #'''Support''' or #'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's policy on article titles.

Support

1. Support. Agree with the proposal exactly as written by MrX at . The title Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections is the most descriptive, concise, and succinct title for this page. It happened in 2016, it impacted multiple elections, not just one, and the word "interference" is the word most used in a majority of secondary sources. Sagecandor (talk) 18:58, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
2. Support. More natural language, matches the sources out there; I agree that it is the most descriptive, concise, and succinct title. Neutrality 19:38, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
3. Support per nomination. The current wording is awkwardly formed. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 20:15, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
4. Support this great improvement. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:22, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
5. Support per nomination. The current wording is awkward. Coattail effect (talk) 15:50, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
6. Support This is more succinct and seems more likely to match users' search terms. SPECIFICO talk 23:01, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
7. Support This reads much more naturally. - Scarpy (talk) 21:40, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
8. Support – Easier to read title with better form. Dustin (talk) 21:56, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
9. Support Shorter and easier for the reader to find content.Casprings (talk) 02:32, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
10. Support per nom. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 16:48, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
11. Support - better stylistically.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:35, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. Attributing the hacks to Russia, as if that were a fact, is blatantly POV. We need a title that doesn't state accusations and claims made by unreliable sources (i.e., U.S. intelligence agencies) as if they were facts. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:13, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
2. Oppose. Title should simply be 'Interference in the 2016 United States elections' without any reference to alleged offending country until such time as evidence has been presented to be public to be scrutinized by all. Attack seemingly originating from IP address within Russia does not constitute government involvement. In December interview with Edward Snowden, he too questioned why no evidence has been put forward by U.S. Intelligence agencies to support Russian Government involvement but moreover brought up great comparison. When Sony was hacked, U.S. Intelligence agencies quickly came forward and produced evidence to support their findings that the North Korean Government was responsible for the hack. Here, we have no evidence other than a simple allegation. And, not to take pot shots at the U.S. Intelligence agencies, but these are the same people who lied to Congress for years, about bulk date collection, so credibility is an issue that should not be overlooked. Misplaced Pages should avoid repeating unfounded allegations and not put itself in the position of becoming another 'fake news' outlet. The title can certainly be changed at a later date once the allegations have been proven. -Parajuris —Preceding undated comment added 19:36, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
3. Oppose – Both the current and proposed titles fail WP:POVTITLE. Either we call it Alleged Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections or we call it Intelligence reports of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. I disagree with calling it just Interference in the 2016 United States elections because most sources do discuss Russia, either accusing its government or dismissing their involvement. — JFG 00:10, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
4. Oppose per JFG.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:12, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
5. Oppose per JFG. Assigning guilt in article's title violates WP:POVTITLE, especially since the Russian government has denied these allegations. We include these statements in the article, but the article's title tells the reader that these statements are wrong. While that might be true, that's not the job of the article's title. _Gravity 01:40, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
6. Oppose – Nowhere in this article's text does it say in Misplaced Pages's voice that Russia interfered in the 2016 U.S. Elections, so the title shouldn't say so either. I think that this proposal is for changing something bad to something else that's bad, and reinforces a bad title idea. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
7. Oppose per Bob K31416, Thucydides411 and JFG. I consider it practically disruptive that Sagecandor is repeatedly proposing name changes that are practically identical, and all suffer the exact same flaw. The effect is that nobody is able to propose a real change - namely, one that doesn't manufacture a fact from an allegation. -Darouet (talk) 04:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
8. Oppose Any of the titles offered by JFG and Parajuris work better than the current title or the proposed alternative.LM2000 (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

This title change doesn't assign any more or any less guilty the then previous one, it just improves the readability of the title. If you want to have a discussion about POV, have it not within a discussion about readability. - Scarpy (talk) 06:01, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

• For reference, there have been several alternate titles suggested in the Oppose section:

Interference in the 2016 United States elections – Parajuris

Alleged Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections – JFG

Intelligence reports of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections – JFG

and there was also an alternate title suggested in a previous section

2016 United States election and Russia – Bob K31416.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 22:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages violation of policy exposed

Without verifiable content, information cannot be posted as factual according to Misplaced Pages policy.

Absolutely no factual references were used or cited to draw the conclusion the "2016 United States election interference by Russia" should be treated as a factual statement. At best, the intelligence agencies "believe based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts" that the leaks were "consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts." No actual evidence exists to implicate Russia and, to the contrary, the source of the leaks, Julian Assange, clearly stated that Russia was not involved. The fact remains that the DNC was hacked four months before the Republican Candidate was chosen. The Russians didn't even know that Trump would be the candidate when the "hacking" occurred, so it is highly illogical to assume that they intervened to benefit Mr. Trump when he had not been made the candidate and was actually expected not to be the republican candidate.

The Intelligence Technology employee of the Democratic National Committee, Delevan, openly admitted that he instructed the Podesta staffer to allow the unauthorized access to the documents to proceed and blamed it on a typographical error <1>. An equally plausible explanation would be that it was an intentional, inside job, performed by disgruntled democrats who were angry about the treatment of Bernie Sanders. Another Democratic National Committee staffer, similarly motivated, Seth Rich, was implicated as a source for leaked emails and was allegedly preparing to turn over Hillary Clinton's emails to the FBI when he ended up getting two bullets in his body,<2> "consistent with the methods and motivations of (Clinton)-directed efforts." With equal justification, it can be said that some "believe based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts" that Vince Foster's experience can serve as a role model for a Clinton implication.

Therefore, the title should be changed to "Alleged 2016 United States election interference by Russia."

67.161.43.34 (talk) 22:12, 22 December 2016 (UTC)William T. O'Connor

WP:NOTAFORUM (and washington times is not a reliable source).Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:33, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

References

1. 1) http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/14/hillary-clinton-tech-staffer-typo-precipitated-joh/
2. 2) http://www.newsweek.com/seth-rich-murder-dnc-hack-julian-assange-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-492084

RfC: Should Putin's December 23 press conference statement be included or excluded?

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At a December 23 press conference, Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election: "They are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame. In my view this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity." Does Putin's response belong in the article? (I am doing this as an RfC because the existing discretionary sanctions on American Politics effectively give anyone veto power over any material merely by deleting it, regardless of how flimsy the rationale for deletion may be—although in practice this is constantly abused and inconsistently enforced.)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:33, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

References

1. Osborn, Andrew; Soldatkin, Vladimir (2016-12-23). "Putin shrugs off Trump's nuclear plans, says Democrats sore losers". Reuters. Retrieved 2016-12-24.

Survey

• Support adding Putin's response. This material was deleted as "wp:undue" by User:Volunteer Marek, but it's hard for me to imagine how WP:UNDUE could apply to Putin's own response to allegations that he personally interfered in the U.S. election.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:37, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support keeping the first sentence Keep: "They are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame" as it is Putin ascribing a motive to his accuser; it's pertinent and due. Oppose keeping "In my view this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity" as it is Putin casting aspersions and is undue. Marteau (talk) 04:25, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose this is a distraction. Obviously, Russia denies this and is trying to make this about the election and not about the violations committed by their intelligence and disinformation agencies. - Scarpy (talk) 05:57, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

You have cited a political, but not an encyclopedic, reason for excluding the statement of an alleged perpetrator of the action the article is devoted to. Your guess as to what Putin's motives are is irrelevant. The direct statement of the alleged perpetrator of the activity the article is devoted to is 100% completely relevant and 100% deserving of inclusion in the "Reaction and Commentary" sub-section. Marteau (talk) 06:31, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Obviously US politicians and officials never do this. That's what makes their opinions so reliable. Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm hesitant to respond here. I will remind you to assume good faith, and to pay close attention to comments before responding. If you'd like to have a two-sided conversation, I'm all for it. If you want to go off on tangents, there are other contributors to this article what will likely indulge you. - Scarpy (talk) 06:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support. It is clearly one of the more notable statements in the "Commentary and Reaction" section. It has received more than enough enough coverage in the non-Russian press. This despite the fact that (a) it's very recent (b) national media coverage is necessarily skewed toward reporting on statements made by domestic politicians (i.e. not Putin), something which has to be taken into account per wp:systemicbias. If it were up to me, the "reaction" section would be down to a paragraph, and a lot of the less-than-informative commentary (including this taunting by Putin) would go. since that does not appear to be in the cards, Putin's statement from his major annual press conference must be kept per WP:DUE. Guccisamsclub (talk) 11:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support - I think we have to include a brief mention of this based on the widespread coverage in reliable sources, even though it's empty posturing and diversionary.- MrX 18:29, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Can you be a little bit more specific about what you mean by "brief"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support – Statement is obviously relevant, and widely cited in RS, Volunteer Marek's POV notwithstanding. Suggest a WP:SNOW close. — JFG 08:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose – It wasn't specified what "all fronts" meant. For example, one of those fronts could be the war in Syria. Putin's comments about the elections accusations came a little later in the reliable source.

" Putin dismissed suggestions Moscow had helped Trump to victory in any way however.

  'It's not like that,' he said. 'All of this (the accusations) speaks of the current administration's systemic problems.' "

--Bob K31416 (talk) 16:59, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Bob K31416: You should really withdraw your oppose, as it is based on false pretenses. "One of those fronts could be the war in Syria." No, Russia actually is involved in the war in Syria. In context, Putin was quite clearly referring to the U.S. elections: "Democrats are losing on every front and looking for people to blame everywhere. They need to learn to lose with dignity. The Democratic Party lost not only the presidential elections, but elections in the Senate and Congress. ... Is that also my work?" (Or use Russia's official translation: "The current US Administration and leaders of the Democratic Party are trying to blame all their failures on outside factors. I have questions and some thoughts in this regard. We know that not only did the Democratic Party lose the presidential election, but also the Senate, where the Republicans have the majority, and Congress, where the Republicans are also in control. Did we, or I also do that? ... This is not the way things really are. All this goes to show that the current administration faces system-wide issues.") More importantly, none of our reliable sources thought to misinterpret Putin's words in the highly creative manner you suggest, as I will document below.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose While it would be appropriate to include a well-sourced statement that Putin denies Russian involvement in the hacking, that is not what this RfC would provide. This RfC promotes the clearly UNDUE and irrelevant fact that Putin denigrates the Democrats. Per my statement and others in the discussion section below, editors should oppose this WP:POINTy RfC and we should instead follow policy to include appropriate accounts of Putin's denial. SPECIFICO talk 19:12, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose to including as direct quotation. This should be mentioned, but only briefly summarized as the fact that Putin denied the claim. I do not see any reason for including direct quotation here. He is not a Cicero, and the statements adds nothing to the simple fact of denial beyond disparaging other people. The only reason to include quotation is to disparage democrats, which is not the purpose of WP.My very best wishes (talk) 21:03, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

It's also not the purpose of Misplaced Pages to exclude quotes just because they disparage Democrats. If the quote is notable enough, it should be included, either in direct or paraphrased form. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support: These statements have been widely reported, and they deal directly with the content of this article. I think it's obvious they belong in the article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:24, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose including the quotation, which is undue. Of course Putin's denial of involvement, properly sourced, should be included.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:32, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: Could you please help me understand your reasoning behind invoking WP:UNDUE on this? "UNDUE" is of course very broadly writter, and it is not clear to me what aspect of the "undue" policy you think including this quote violates. Marteau (talk) 22:55, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Sure. This isn't an article about "Putin's opinions about the Democratic Party of the United States". Which makes inclusion of this quote POVFORKish. Like I said, his denial of Russian involvement is of course DUE, but his opinions about the Dems, is not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:58, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

OK, I can see that. The part about Putin saying it "degrades their dignity" and "You have to know how to lose with dignity" can be considered undue. But the first sentence, "They are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame" I think is important. That is not his opinion of Democrats... that is him ascribing a motive to his accuser which, if not quoted directly, needs at least a paraphrase, which is not present currently. Marteau (talk) 00:23, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: If this is "undue" for the reasons given by Volunteer Marek et al., so is roughly 90% of the "Reactions" section, which has little to do with the narrow question of whether or not the hackers were employed by the Russian state. Editors are being highly selective--per wp:systemicbias--in what they consider "undue." Putin's other point was that it's not who stole the emails, but what's in them. Remember that Putin himself tried push the same "our enemies did it" line as the Democrats when the Panama papers came out, to distract from the contents of the docs. Would pointing that out also be "undue"? Remember that this article is about Russian "interference in the election", not Russia's "interference in the DNC's IT infrastructure." Therefore the broader political issues can't be dismissed, and in fact are not dismissed by RS. Guccisamsclub (talk) 01:15, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

References

• WP:DUEWEIGHT has nothing to do with who made the response, and everything to do with the extent of coverage in reliable sources. If you would like to convince other editor that this material should be added to the article, you might start by showing that other reliable sources are treating it as important and that it helps readers understand the subject.- MrX 03:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Okay—I gave you Reuters—here's Huffington Post, Slate, Business Insider, CNN, Fox News, and USA Today. A Google search for "Putin sore losers" gets 263,000 hits. And this story just broke a few hours ago.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
  • ... Washington Post, Daily Mail, Politico, CNBC Marteau (talk) 05:07, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
• I'm changing the RfC title from the highly argumentative "Is Putin's own response UNDUE?" to "Should Putin's December 23 press conference statement be included or excluded?" PEr Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, the question presented in an RfC should be brief, neutral, and specific. The original title was none of these. And TheTimesAreAChanging, you should put your argument/perspective under "survey" or "threaded discussion" — not under the question presented. These are pretty simple and important rules for RfCs.

Separately but relatedly, it's also incorrect to frame the issue of whether "Putin's own response should be included" — his response already is included, under "Reactions: Russian government," we clearly and specifically note what Putin's representatives have said (denied that Russia participated, termed accusation "nonsense") and additional quote Russian foreign minister Lavrov as well. Neutrality 03:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Why would it be preferable to cite only "Putin's representatives," but not the man himself—especially when a CIA-connected journalist told ABC Putin was "personally involved"?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

In light of the malformed presentation, I suggest somebody archive this and that if OP wishes to pursue the RfC a properly stated and formatted version be presented. SPECIFICO talk 03:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Only in American Politics, folks.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

If you move your argumentation out of the question section (to the comments or threaded discussion section), that would in my view fix the problem. This is a pretty simple thing to do to follow pretty simple RfC rules. Neutrality 04:12, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

We're only going to have a problem a month from now if this RfC is not properly set forth. I am going to post on AN asking for assistance. The cherrypicked statement by Putin on the 23rd is not about the hacking, it's another in his denigrations of the Democrats and by implication Sec'y Clinton, for whom he has longstanding animosity. There are RS accounts of Putin denying Russian involvement in the hacking and it's appropriate to say Russia denied the conclusions of the US Gov't, but this RfC is misstated and cites Putin's off-topic dissembling on a different subject. This needs to be closed and a proper RfC or edit -- on the topic of this article -- added to the talk page or article. SPECIFICO talk 16:27, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

The premise of the RfC that "Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election" with the given quote, is not supported by the reliable source. Presentation of Putin's response to accusations came a little later in the reliable source, as indicated in my comment in the survey section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:14, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

That's why this RfC is a hot mess. Even if the putative outcome were "support" it would not relate to the relevant matter, namely that Putin has denied involvement. So any supporting !votes here are supporting an undue off-topic and irrelevant statement. That's why we need to shut this down and mount a properly stated RfC, although frankly, as others have stated, the posting of this RfC seems like an argumentative and WP:POINTy reaction to @Volunteer Marek:'s appropriate reversion of the off-topic content. Is there an Admin in the house? Please can't we get this straight? OP has been asked to edit, but at this point we have responses and it is too late for OP to correct this. SPECIFICO talk 17:41, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Not sure if admins intervene in this type of situation. In the meantime, you might consider adding your opinion to the survey section and hope that more will see the problem with this RfC and oppose it --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:01, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

I will do that, thank you, but I will also challenge any close that purports to endorse off-topic article content due to the disruptive malformed statement of the RfC. SPECIFICO talk 19:08, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

As documented below, Bob K31416 and SPECIFICO are playing with fantasies rather than facts, and SPECIFICO is the only one being disruptive (while threatening further disruption). Putin's remarks are apparently so damaging to the narrative these editors seek to promote that they find it easier to assimilate them into their worldview by assiduously denying that Putin said what everyone else heard him say (Russia's official transcript be damned!).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:55, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what kind of alternate universe Bob K31416 and SPECIFICO are living in when they claim "The premise of the RfC that 'Vladimir Putin responded to claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election' with the given quote, is not supported by the reliable source." Here is Russia's official transcript of the press conference:

• Yevgeny Primakov: Our western colleagues often tell us that you have the power to manipulate the world, designate presidents, and interfere in elections here and there. How does it feel to be the most powerful person on Earth? Thank you.
• Vladimir Putin: I have commented on this issue on a number of occasions. If you want to hear it one more time, I can say it again. The current US Administration and leaders of the Democratic Party are trying to blame all their failures on outside factors. I have questions and some thoughts in this regard. We know that not only did the Democratic Party lose the presidential election, but also the Senate, where the Republicans have the majority, and Congress, where the Republicans are also in control. Did we, or I also do that? We may have celebrated this on the "vestiges of a 17th century chapel," but were we the ones who destroyed the chapel, as the saying goes? This is not the way things really are. All this goes to show that the current administration faces system-wide issues, as I have said at a Valdai Club meeting. ... The outstanding Democrats in American history would probably be turning in their graves though. Roosevelt certainly would be because he was an exceptional statesman in American and world history, who knew how to unite the nation even during the Great Depression’s bleakest years, in the late 1930s, and during World War II. Today’s administration, however, is very clearly dividing the nation. The call for the electors not to vote for either candidate, in this case, not to vote for the President-elect, was quite simply a step towards dividing the nation. Two electors did decide not to vote for Trump, and four for Clinton, and here too they lost. They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame. I think that this is an affront to their own dignity. It is important to know how to lose gracefully.

And here is how this was reported in reliable sources:

• "Putin to Democratic Party: You lost, get over it," The Washington Post, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladi­mir Putin has a message for the White House and Democratic leaders who accuse him of stealing their candidate’s victory: Don't be sore losers. That was how Putin answered a question Friday at his nationally televised annual news conference about whether Russia interfered in the U.S. presidential election in favor of Donald Trump. The Democrats 'are losing on all fronts and looking elsewhere for things to blame,' he told the nearly 1,400 journalists packed into a Moscow convention hall for the nearly four-hour event. 'In my view, this, how shall I say it, degrades their own dignity. You have to know how to lose with dignity.'"
• "Putin says Democrats are being sore losers: 'It is important to know how to lose gracefully'," Business Insider, December 2013, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin said Friday that top Democrats are being sore losers by, in part, looking to blame Hillary Clinton's stunning election loss on hacks said to have been orchestrated by the Kremlin. 'They are losing on all fronts and looking for scapegoats on whom to lay the blame,' Putin said. 'I think that this is an affront to their own dignity.' 'It is important to know how to lose gracefully,' he added, suggesting Clinton's loss was a result of a 'gap between the elite's vision of what is good and bad' and the 'broad popular masses.'"
• "Putin reaches out to Trump, while thumping Dems," Fox News, December 23, 2016: "Russian President Vladimir Putin followed up a warm letter to Donald Trump with a more terse message for U.S. Democrats Friday: Don't blame me for your November drubbing. ... 'Democrats are losing on every front and looking for people to blame everywhere,' he said. 'They need to learn to lose with dignity.' 'The Democratic Party lost not only the presidential elections, but elections in the Senate and Congress. ... Is that also my work?' he said. He went on to ridicule Democrats for never-say-die efforts to overturn the Nov. 8 presidential election, first by calling for recounts, then trying to get electors to flip. 'The fact that the current ruling party called Democratic has blatantly forgotten the original definition of its name is evident if one takes into consideration unscrupulous use of administrative resource and appeals to electors not to concede to voters' choice,' Putin said, according to the Russian news agency Tass."

Do I really need to go on? There is no serious argument that this material has nothing to do with "claims of Russian involvement in the 2016 U.S. election"; as both the official transcript and the cited RS make clear, Putin chose to respond to the question about interfering in the election by emphasizing the Democrats's need for an external scapegoat. The real argument is simply that some editors don't like how Putin chose to respond, citing WP:NOCRITICISMOFTHEDEMOCRATICPARTYCANEVER,EVER,EVERBEALLOWED—the red link indicates this policy is fictitious.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:38, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

• I don't understand. How is this content off-topic? Putin discussed the hacking scandal - isn't that directly relevant to this article? -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:22, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

@Marteau:It was not the Democrats accusing the Russians of this or that. It was the official intelligence assessment of the US Government, accepted by both parties in Congress and just about everywhere else except the Trump team, who endorsed and requested Russian interference. SPECIFICO talk 00:37, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: It is not our task to judge the correctness, or incorrectness, of Putin's statement. It is his opinion and his reply to the accusations he has faced, and it belongs in the "Reaction and Commentary" section. But besides that, the Democrats certainly DID accuse the Russians "of this or that". They actually made quite a big to-do about it, as I recall. Marteau (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

But my point is that his "accusers" are not the Democrats, it is the US Government. Only the Trump campaign and associates deny this. SPECIFICO talk 01:22, 26 December 2016 (UTC) SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

"Obama administration accuses Russian government of election-year hacking" Marteau (talk) 01:52, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I was attempting to respond to your statement above that Putin's derogation of the Democrats is on topic for this article because it was the Democratic Party that accused/determined that the Russians hacked. But it was not the Democratic Party, it was the US Government -- the Obama Administration for the executive branch based on the National Intelligence Assessment, and a broad bi-partisan array of US members of Congress. So Putin's snarky put-down presumably of the campaign of Sec'y Clinton, whom he despises, is not relevant to this article. It might be relevant to an article about Secretary Clinton's campaign, since it is a meme that various talking heads on the cable networks have also presented. SPECIFICO talk 02:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, then. Marteau (talk) 02:10, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Please specify the disagreement. Do you doubt that mainstream RS all report that it was the US Gov't intelligence assessment that Russia hacked? SPECIFICO talk 02:14, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

This article is about Russian interference in the election. Democrats, using US intelligence as a basis, have in fact accused Russia of interference. Putin has addressed Democratic criticism. I feel that these issues are worthy of inclusion in an article about Russian interference in the election. I think it has foundation and rationale for inclusion based on policy and guidelines. Thats my stance, you disagree. Now, I'll resume agreeing to disagree if you don't mind :) Marteau (talk) 02:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

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