Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:53, 17 November 2004

user:Weed Harper, please say in the edit box what you have changed, as otherwise it makes it impossible to keep track. I disagree with your addition of the strange article on the Tavistock. If you read the article, you wil see that it is full of nonsense, even just small things like Freud being given a mansion in London. That alone shows that the writer has no specialist knowledge of Freud. If you are a LaRouche supporter, I hope you will abide by the arbitration decision that LaRouche supporters are not allowed to engage in LaRouche-related advocacy. I also see you deleted the reference to Dr. Tannenbaum. Please say why. user:SlimVirgin 14 Nov 2004, 01:25 (UTC)

user:Weed Harper I checked the information on Tennenbaum. Duggan's mother has told reporters that Tennenbaum said this to her during a meeting she had with him. I have therefore restored it making clear that she is the source.

You added that the Tavistock ran the Psychiatric Division of the British Army during WWII. This is a LaRouche claim. I will check again to see whether it is authentically part of the Tavistock's history. If it is, I will delete that it's a LaRouche claim. user:SlimVirgin

SlimVirgin, the EIR article cites a source: The Shaping of Psychiatry by War, by Dr. John Rawlings Rees. I have modified Colden's edit to reflect this.

Herschel, please don't insert anything from the EIR without full attribution. It is a LaRouche publication. Misplaced Pages must not be used for LaRouche advocacy. Slim

This issue may have to be referred for arbitration. You are inserting material that is simply made up. The conference, for example, was NOT organized to oppose the Iraq war and was not about the Iraq War. I don't have time to argue each and every pro-LaRouche point. Therefore, I feel we should refer to the arbitration committee that made the decision about LaRouche-related material the last time. I have reverted to the previous version -- but I will insert any material from the other versions if it is in the form of a defence against the allegations from a LaRouche spokesperson, or a relevant fact that can be sourced to a reputable publication. user:SlimVirgin

I think that this article is largely propaganda. Duggan was not a member, nor an activist in the LaRouche movement. He just showed up at a conference. You might as well blame the restaurant where he had breakfast. It seems pretty clear to me that Ms. Duggan is being manipulated by people who are indifferent to her personal tragedy. --C Colden 16:03, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How come user:C Colden's talk page is identical to user:Weed Harper's?

Please take note of the fact that the messages on my talk page are messages to me, not from me. Ms. Colden evidently received the same message of welcome when she first began editing. Weed Harper 00:17, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am going to revert to the previous version because you have inserted LaRouche propaganda into this article. (1) You cannot possibly have personal knowledge of when the mother started her investigation. She says it was 18 months ago; I would say it started when she flew to Wiesbaden after her son's death to speak to senior Schiller Institute managers, which was over 18 months ago; (2) You also cannot have personal knowledge of whether the mother's inquiries began only after she was encouraged by Baroness Symons. This is the Executive Intelligence Review position. The EIR is a LaRouche publication. Don't insert its material into Misplaced Pages's articles without attribution; (3) Why did you delete that Duggan had personally heard LaRouche give an address? (4) What difference does it make that Duggan wasn't a LaRouche activist? He bought a LaRouche newspaper and was persuaded to attend a LaRouche conference in another country with a group of LaRouche activists. A week later, he phoned his mother in a state of panic, sounding terrified. Forty-five minutes later, he died in odd circumstances. After his death, police found a Schiller Institute manager to be in possession of Duggan's passport. What is the difference to this chain of events that this was, or was not, Duggan's first involvement with the LaRouche organization? Please note the Misplaced Pages arbitration ruling that LaRouche supporters are not to use Misplaced Pages for LaRouche advocacy. user:SlimVirgin 20:19, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have gone over C Colden's edits and attributed them properly. Do the press accounts that you are using suggest that LaRouche's speech somehow damaged Duggan psychologically? If not, you need to establish how it is relevant to the article. Also, SlimVirgin, please cite some sources for this paragraph:

The LaRouche organization is regarded by many as an extremist, anti-Semitic cult. Erica Duggan has told reporters that, when German police broke the news of her son's death, they said: "Go nowhere near these people. They are dangerous." (See political views of Lyndon LaRouche.) A Scotland Yard report describes the LaRouche organization as "a political cult with sinister and dangerous connections."

Since it looks like this is going to be a somewhat contentious editing job, I would like to request that all participants edit items individually, with appropriate edit summary memos, rather than resorting to wholesale reversion. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, I also don't like the idea of wholesale reversion either, but it is not acceptable for LaRouche propaganda to be allowed to insert itself into this article, for obvious reasons. The source for the paragraph above (what the German police said and the Scotland Yard report) is the coroner's inquest. I will make that clear. I think we should refer this for arbitration/mediation, rather than continually reverting, if the dispute continues. The arbitration committee has ruled that Misplaced Pages must not be used for LaRouche advocacy, and that ruling must be adhered to. Please do not insert any material from the LaRouche Executive Intelligence Review unless it is directly relevant and fully attributed. Also, if you do make any such additions, ADD the material: do not delete something else and replace it. Finally, why are the discussion pages of C Colden and Weed Harper identical? Are they the same person? user:SlimVirgin 22:27, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with the Misplaced Pages NPOV policy: it is the foundation for settling disputes. Both sides of a controversy must be presented in an article, with proper attribution. If you feel we need mediation, I would suggest contacting Snowspinner, who successfully mediated the last round of LaRouche-related edit conflicts. Meanwhile, I went to the trouble of painstakingly attributing each item from EIR, and I would ask that you do me the courtesy of responding to individual edits, rather than reverting extensive work at one stroke. I will do you the same courtesy, and it will make this much more pleasant.

Regarding Colden and Harper, look again. They both have the same welcome message from Sam Spade, but there is much more discussion on Harper's page. Slow down a bit, and read more carefully. --Herschelkrustofsky 22:28, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

To user:Weed Harper, I have lost track of what your various changes are, because you don't list them in the edit summary. Herschel, I AM familiar with the NPOV policy. That is why I feel LaRouche claims should not be inserted here without full attribution and only if they are directly relevant. For example, how does Weed Harper (or the EIR) know that the mother started her investigation in July 2003? How do they know she had a "change of heart?" This is pure propaganda. SHE says she started her investigation when her son died. SHE is the only person who can know this, and is therefore the only primary source for the claim. I am referring this issue to an arbitrator. Slim

All versions of the story reflect the fact that Mrs. Duggan met with Schiller Institute personnel after her son's death. The assessment of those persons, that her attitude was different then than later, is therefore relevant. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:53, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Note: I removed the quote from the German newspaper article only because it was such poor English and made no sense. Does anyone have the original German, so we could do a proper translation? Then I'd be happy to have it back in. Slim

To user:Weed Harper: When a sentence says eg. "The court heard that the police relied on statements from the Schiller Institute that turned out not to be true," you can't change that to "are now said to be untrue." That is not what the court heard. The court heard that the statements turned out not to be true. That is what is on the record; and that court record, as reported by the Guardian, Times and Independent, is the source of the Misplaced Pages entry. When the record is updated e.g. by the German police re-opening their investigation and obtaining new information, or by them deciding not to re-open their investigation; or by the LaRouche organization or the family or the lawyers making more statements, then the Misplaced Pages entry can be updated. But we cannot change what has been said to reflect our own views. user:SlimVirgin 00:51, 15 Nov, 2004 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I am not aware of any charge by the LaRouche publications that the Tavistock Institute is working for the CIA or British Intelligence. If you insert that characterization again, please provide a source. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:53, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also, please be a bit more careful in characterizing the LaRouche Organization's views -- they do not assert that Tavistock "ran" the psychiatric division, they say that, according to Tavistock's director, their staff was absorbed into the psychiatric division during the war. You are entitled to have a POV that is hostile to LaRouche, but then it becomes incumbent upon you not to let your POV lead you into sloppy editing. --Herschelkrustofsky 16:08, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, this is becoming insane. I was not the one who added the relationship between the Tavistock and the British Army's psychiatric division (and I still don't see the relevance of it). It was one of the other apparent LaRouche supporters who inserted that allegation, either Weed Harper or C Colden.

Also, please keep an eye on the grammar of your insertions. Yesterday, you added: "LaRouche supporters cite the Nov. 11, 2003, edition of the Wiesbadener Kurier newspaper, which published a story on the Duggan affair, under the headline "Why British Media Probably Wrongly Doubt the Investigations of the Wiesbaden Police." The article featured official statements from a spokesman for Chief Prosecutor Dieter Arlet, and began with a question: "Did a student from London really jump in front of a car with the intention of committing suicide? British newspapers have publicized doubt about this description of the Wiesbaden Prosecutor's Office and base this on the conclusion of a coroner. But that judgment is in fact different than the way it is reported in Great Britain."

This is not good English, so I have deleted it. Please supply a proper translation; or put the original on this page and I will translate it myself.

Today, you added: "One of the claims of the Lyndon LaRouche organization is that the highly respected Tavistock Institute, which according to the LaRouche organization is itself involved in mind control; they cite the book by Clinic head Dr. John Rawlings Rees, The Shaping of Psychiatry by War, which details how virtually the entire staff of Tavistock had been absorbed into the Psychiatric Division of the British Army during World War II."

There is a clause missing and one of the tenses is wrong. In terms of its relevance, what is the relevance of this book to the allegation that the Tavistock is involved in mind control?

I have deleted that paragraph for those two reasons. I want to make clear that I am happy for the information to be included, but it must be properly written and must be relevant to the mind control claim e.g. there should be a direct quote from the book, and another citation showing the Psychiatric Division was involved in mind control, or something like that. Or if you can't find a direct quote, a quote from a secondary source quoting the book. Slim 21:09, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Also Herschel, regarding your change to the Helga Zepp-LaRouche page, here's why I deleted it. You wrote that the family wants a second German police investigation because the first investigation exonerated the Schiller Institute. But it didn't. There was no first investigation, except to measure tire marks on the road, because the police thought they were dealing with a straightforward traffic accident. It appears that they didn't know about the LaRouche link. I therefore changed your addition to the family is pressing for a "proper" police investigation. Please don't add material indicating that the Schiller Institute has been cleared when no such thing has happened.

Could I ask you please not to make any more additions or deletions about the details of the Jeremiah Duggan case until you have read the inquest transcripts and to make sure you fully attribute all your additions? I will do the same. If we both do that, it should go some way to resolving our differences. Slim 21:17, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Adding this page to the "LaRouche Template

I reject AndyL's edit, adding this page to the template of "LaRouche-related persons and organizations." I think it is a highly dubious proposition to assert that Jeremiah Duggan has anything whatsoever to do with Lyndon LaRouche. He was not a member, an activist, nor did he have any sort of ongoing relationship -- he was a casual attendee at a conference, at which there were several hundred other attendees, none of which went crazy. Therefore I will not accept the argument that his story is an integral part of the history of the LaRouche movement, any more than I would accept the argument that the gal who says she was raped by Bill Clinton is essential to the story of his presidency -- although the rape charge is mentioned in the Misplaced Pages article on Clinton. --Herschelkrustofsky 05:14, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, I disagree. Jeremiah Duggan was a new recruit of the LaRouche Youth Movement, a movement started in 1999 by Lyndon LaRouche, of which he has stated he has tremendous hopes. The allegation made in the British coroner's court is that Jeremiah Duggan may have died as a direct or indirect result of mind-control techniques designed to persuade him to commit himself to the organization. These techniques were espoused by Lyndon LaRouche in his work Beyond Psychoanalysis, which he wrote under the Lyn Marcus pseudonym. Mrs. Duggan has sold her home, cashed in her life savings, has the support of the British government and has hired a well-known Berlin lawyer to find out exactly what happened. Therefore, it seems likely that this issue is not going to go away, and will become part of the LaRouche movement's history -- possibly an important part. Slim 06:53, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)