Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
:What I would like to see happen though is less people coming around trying to remove sections of the article as pseudoscience. As far as I can see currently the article is well structured and fairly describes the theory and the reasons it has not gained acceptance. Going around removing a summary of what the theory is about is simply vandalism. There are books and articles discussing the various points, we don't need big long lists of citations to everyone who has dismissed a point in the section outlining the main points just so the main thing being discussed can be listed. ] (]) 11:20, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
:What I would like to see happen though is less people coming around trying to remove sections of the article as pseudoscience. As far as I can see currently the article is well structured and fairly describes the theory and the reasons it has not gained acceptance. Going around removing a summary of what the theory is about is simply vandalism. There are books and articles discussing the various points, we don't need big long lists of citations to everyone who has dismissed a point in the section outlining the main points just so the main thing being discussed can be listed. ] (]) 11:20, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
::Please see ]. It is fine for Misplaced Pages to describe fringe theories from a mainstream perspective. It is ''not'' fine for Misplaced Pages to be expounding those theories at length from its proponents writings. If there is no mainstream perspective on a fringe notion, Misplaced Pages must be silent on that notion. ] (]) 11:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
::Please see ]. It is fine for Misplaced Pages to describe fringe theories from a mainstream perspective. It is ''not'' fine for Misplaced Pages to be expounding those theories at length from its proponents writings. If there is no mainstream perspective on a fringe notion, Misplaced Pages must be silent on that notion. ] (]) 11:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
:::Translated: "Keep silencing it to death!" Well, that's not working anymore, darling. 'Cause we most likely ''are'' them ol' beach apes. Even if you do keep adding on conditions to keep with the program dictated by aristocracy refusing to be proven wrong. ] (]) 11:44, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Primates, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Primates on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PrimatesWikipedia:WikiProject PrimatesTemplate:WikiProject PrimatesPrimate
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthropology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Anthropology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthropologyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthropologyTemplate:WikiProject AnthropologyAnthropology
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human Genetic History, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Human Genetic HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryHuman Genetic History
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palaeontology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of palaeontology-related topics and create a standardized, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use resource on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PalaeontologyWikipedia:WikiProject PalaeontologyTemplate:WikiProject PalaeontologyPalaeontology
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.
Suggestion - new subsection - anthropological consensus on human evolution
I'm still trying to do something about this hopeless, negatively biased article. I propose to lead the section about the actual hypothesis/ses by summarizing the contemporary consensus on human evolution, as expressed by the scientific field of anthropology. This is to illustrate the background for Elaine Morgan's AAH, since she based her work on what she perceived as shortcomings to parts of that consensus, straw man arguments and whatnot. Whether we then further detail her challenging of this consensus in the following sections is for a different discussion. If you skeptics really desire an optimal, non-POV article detailing what the hell all this boohah is about, let's start with this, since it should contain the fewest controversies (unless creationists are also hanging out in here, which is not bloody unlikely the way things have been going).
Modern humans, Homo sapiens, developed from earlier forms found as fossils at various locations around the world, seeing an early concentration in East Africa. Other remnants from early humans such as tools, foods, dwellings, etc., have also been detected. Combined, these finds present a partial image of the process, that developed the species Homo sapiens.
From the collective work of anthropology, and in later years also genetics, established consensus states, that humans belong in the biological tribeHominini, this in the family of Hominidae (the great apes), this in the order of primates, this in the class of mammals. Humans are closely related to, in order of closest kinship, the great ape genera chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and further distant the family of gibbons. Hominini includes the subtribeAustralopithecina with the genera Sahelanthropus, Orrorin, Ardipithecus, Paranthropus, Australopithecines; and the subtribe Hominina, encompassing the genus Homo, some of its species being Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, the Neanderthals and modern humans, the latter being the only extant species. There is still some uncertainty about the interrelation between the known Hominin fossils; new finds can still drastically rewrite the human family tree, most recently with Sahelanthropus. Contemporary anthropology estimates, that the direct ancestors of modern humans split from a common ancestor to chimpanzees somewhere between 4 and 8 million years ago in Africa; the fossil ape Sahelanthropus tchadensis which lived some 7 million years ago in Chad is considered the earliest possible homininin.
Since the breakthrough of Darwin and Wallace's theory of evolution in the 19th century, it has been debated why humans have features that distinguish them from their nearest evolutionary relatives; most notably by being near-furless, employing upright bipedal stance on their hind limbs, and having the perhaps most complex brain in the animal kingdom. A wide range of difficult to corroborate hypotheses have been presented as to the evolutionary background of the unique features of modern humans; for human bipedalism e.g. altered carrying behavior, improved energy efficiency, improved thermal regulation, altered social behavior and increased dominance behavior.
The human split from the lineage of the chimpanzees is linked to the geological formation of the East African mountain range Great Rift Valley that extends from Djibouti to Mozambique. In this region are found many of the key fossils of the earliest hominins, leaving it to be considered the cradle of humanity. The most widely considered hypothesis is that woodland dwelling, brachiatinghominoids, specifically on the eastern side of the mountain range, gradually lost their habitat to more open areas, for instance grasslands, and that this and other changes forced these hominoids to develop the shapes, that gradually resulted in modern humans.
In recent decades, the traditional image of human origin having taken place in grasslands (e.g. the African savannah) has been challenged, since particularly the oldest homininin fossils are found alongside fossilized fauna and flora from traditional woodland habitats, rather than from grasslands, e.g. the some 4.4 million year old fossil Ardi, an Ardipithecus ramidus.
References
Leakey, Richard E. (1994). The Origin Of Humankind. Weidenfeld & Nicolson. ISBN978-0297815037.
Stringer, C.B. (1994). "Evolution of Early Humans". The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Human Evolution. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 242. ISBN978-0-521-32370-3. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help) Also ISBN 978-0-521-46786-5 (paperback)
Klages, Arthur (2008) "Sahelanthropus tchadensis: An Examination of its Hominin Affinities and Possible Phylogenetic Placement," Totem: The University of Western Ontario Journal of Anthropology: Vol. 16: Iss. 1, Article 5. ir.lib.uwo.ca
Huxley T.H. 1863. Evidence as to Man's place in nature. Williams & Norgate, London. p114–115
Lovejoy, C.O. (1988). "Evolution of Human walking". Scientific American. 259 (5): 82–89.
signing (with falsified date to match the original conclusion of this discussion) for archiver. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Redraft of AAH
Though the Rfc above is still open, Maunus has effectively closed it by acceding to the requests for removal of the Regal quote. So I’d like to ask what next.
This article is a mess, the typical result of warring factions on Misplaced Pages who can’t agree about anything and lay their stakes on something that can’t be instantly deleted. And it doesn’t properly represent the topic that it is supposed to be about. As an example, the largest part in the Proposals section is about Encephalization. Whilst this is the most important area of current research, it was a topic about which Elaine Morgan was consistently ambivalent about, initially preferring to credit it to neotony and never including it in the main chapter sequences in her books.
Since this article is about Morgan’s hypothesis, which remained relatively constant over the years, I think it should start with summarising what she actually said. The basic thesis is that water played an important part in human evolution, but it is argued by a series of plausible consequences, that Daniel Dennett has called adaptionist Just So stories. (Dennett ’95 p243-245 penguin edn) They may or may not be true and many of them will never be able to be independently verified or refuted. Langdon 97 compiled a list of 24 features but even his list has notable gaps: he never mentions babies for example; and such a list is unsuitable for the article.
There is still a place for modern water-related research in the article but it should be separated from Morgan’s claims since researchers unsurprisingly have varying reactions to Morgan. Many are apprehensive of being tainted with the AAH brush and it is only the old men whose positions are impregnable (sorry to be sexist) who have boldly come out in support.
If there is support for a redraft, how do we proceed? Bold editing will probably lead to endless edit wars, drafts on the talk page would be unmanageable. I suspect the only possible way is the sandbox, which can then be discussed on this page. I’m not sure which section of WP should be used. The only suitable place I can suggest is a subpage of my user area and I’d be happy for people to make non-contentious changes to that (with others taking place here).
I think that the subject of the article breaks down into three reasonably separate sections: 1) Morgan's hypothesis, 2) the reaction to her ideas within academia and by the press and other non-academic agencies, and 3) more recent evidence that has some testable basis, which support a water/waterside phase in human evolution. In 1) and 2), it should be emphasised that hotly contested discussions were largely made without any real evidence, the furore being based largely on "gut-instinct" (scientists are not without bias in their views). However, 3) reflects scientifically valid evidence and a beginning in the objective testing of the theory and its predictions. Urselius (talk) 12:57, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Thank you Chris55 a good idea which hopefully will result in a real development and improvement of this article. I will start to re-read the book this week and assist where I can. One thing instantly springs to mind, a result of this may well lead to the necessity of the creation of the waterside ape theory page which is different from the AAT. In terms of a subpage this has worked for a few editors when we took a deep breath and restructured Matthew Hopkins transferring the whole article to a sandbox with <nowiki >at the beginning and obviously </nowiki> at the end. We found it useful as all wikilinks etc do not link (teaching grandmothers to suck eggs!) Edmund Patrick – confer13:55, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks you both for those suggestions. Separating the academic reaction from popular media is probably important so that discussion of mermaids isn't mixed with theoretical issues! I'm not so sure about the <nowiki> idea. When I tried it (easy to preview on the article without pressing the save button) I found the loss of sections and paragraphs more offputting than the inclusion of references which wasn't as distracting as I feared. This article is nearly 3 x the length of the current Matthew Hopkins article which shows it's a big job. Chris55 (talk) 16:47, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Good it was cumbersome, we had self appointed "protectors" of the Witchfinder General and all he stood for, that I doubt will occure here. Let the journey begin. Edmund Patrick – confer05:57, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Comment: I don't see myself getting involved in this (only here for the RFC) but I think the proposals sound good. Personally I have severe reservations on unconstructively anal application of OR and SYN strictures, so good luck in avoiding them as snares for your feet, because a worthwhile and balanced article would need a lot of evaluatory explanation and narration. JonRichfield (talk) 07:49, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Starting: I'm finally ready with the start of a redraft which can be found at User:Chris55/AAH2. Sorry it's taken so long. I have in fact only just managed to get a copy of The Descent of Woman from my local library, still more popular than the followups, but that's not the reason. Partly the delay came from trying to get a transcript of the Attenborough Radio 4 series online which seemed to me important as it's not easy to make references to a radio programme. I'm glad to say this is now available here. So those who have been unable to receive it can scan it rather more quickly.
I've also put the text of the current article at User:Chris55/AAH to act as a resource from which one can transfer text easily to the redraft. Please follow the instructions at the top of each page. Discussions relating to details of the redraft can be made at User talk:Chris55/AAH2.
Chris55 (talk) 08:13, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Article redrafted
This article has had a POV headnote on it for 4 months. Following the discussions earlier on this page, I've now redrafted the article completely and it's available for inspection here. It's been entirely restructured and follows more closely normal Misplaced Pages style for this sort of article. Sorry it's taken so long but it involved reading quite a few books and many more scientific articles. I propose that it should replace the current article. Please read it carefully and indicate whether or not you agree with this. Chris55 (talk) 19:18, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Edmund. Maybe I should suggest to others to skip the first two sections (History and Hardy/Morgan hypothesis) which don't say much new, and look at the last two sections: Reactions and Waterside research, which is where the rewrite most differs from the current version, following others' suggestions on structuring. And of course there will be plenty of opportunity to improve the details. I've tried to be as neutral as I can. Chris55 (talk) 16:30, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Looking very promising, indeed, and I agree it should go up as the article. I've made some small tweaks. Refs 8, 20, 21, 23, 24, 61, 68, and 70 do not point to any (Harvard) citation. Books and journals don't need accessdates. It looks as if initials are punctuated (Bloggs, J.) not (Bloggs J), by the way, I fixed quite a few. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:18, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Many thanks for those corrections. A great help. I've fixed the Harvard citations. The fill-in boxes for citations are a great help but need tweaking in 2 places (ref=harv and removing unnecessary dates). Chris55 (talk) 22:25, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I've left it a week to give time for comments and there are no disagreements so I've posted the redrafted article. Enjoy. Chris55 (talk) 19:54, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Hello Chris,
Thank you for your very interesting redraft. Just a few comments:
1) The image you have chosen for the header, whilst it is cute, it is not actually of the Aquatic Ape Theory. I think it's highly unusual, if against Wikipaedia rules. to have a page with the main image as something not of the topic that the page is covering. For example, if you go to the theory of evolution page, you don't expect to see a picture of what it is NOT, like Lamarckism for example. A more appropriate image would be someone free diving, without any breathing equipment, such as this: ]
2) There has been some further removals of supportive evidence-based research from the list of biological features that support an aquatic era in human development. These include:
i) Sympathetic nervous control of finger wrinkling leading to improved grip in aquatic environments, much discussed on this page on a number of occasions, and also mentioned on the wikipaedia fingertip wrikling page. Please reinstate this passage which was actually previously approved by an anti-AAT wiki editor:
Finger wrinkling:Finger and toe wrinkling is a response to wet conditions.Humans are the only great apes to show finger and toe pad wrinkling in response to exposure to wet conditions. One hypothesis that has been put forward is that wrinkled fingers are adaptive for grasping in wet conditions in the same way as tyre treads help to avoid slipping on the roads. However if it is such an adaption it could have evolved to cope with water in the environment rather than from having to spend time in it.
ii) The use of water birth is incorrectly mentioned as "recently rediscovered" - it has been in practice for many years and all major NHS maternity wards have birthing pools, and since 2007 have been part of the NICE guidelines (National Institute of Clinical Excellence https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg190/chapter/recommendations ; https://www.rcm.org.uk/sites/default/files/Immersion%20in%20Water%20%20for%20Labour%20and%20Birth_0.pdf) The benefits of water birth have been proven in pain reduction and diminished risk of perineal tears in the mother. The previous reference for this was replaced with one of Morgan in the early 1980s, I'm not sure why and it seems unusual and unscientific.
Aquapess, thanks for your comments. As Chiswick Chap has noted, I didn't put the picture at the top of the article and agree it was a bit odd there. I hope the new one doesn't give to rise to more misapprehensions about humans being related to dolphins :) But the real problem is that I couldn't find any more appropriate picture in Wikimedia Commons. I haven't even been able to obtain a copyright-free picture of chimpanzees wading, though there are plenty of (copyright) pictures on the web.
About finger-wrinkling: I realise that this and other plausible physiological effects have been omitted from the redraft, but it wasn't something that Hardy or Morgan picked up on and there wasn't a suitable place to include it. There may be a place for another section covering other hypotheses. But at the moment it falls between two stools (Morgan's ideas and that for which there is scientific testing). The problem with plausible ideas for which there was no scientific evidence relating to the past was that they became targets for skeptics to knock the whole notion. Chris55 (talk) 22:25, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
About water birth: in the 1980s, water birth was more novel for most people. Certainly it's becoming normal now, but we are dealing with an idea that was presented a long time ago. Chris55 (talk) 22:40, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Cite error: The named reference pmid9361254 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
The scientific article on which this news item is based is called "Are Wet-Induced Wrinkled Fingers Primate Rain Treads?" and includes a picture of the wrinkled fingers of a macaque monkey. So it's unclear to me that this is something distinctly human. Chris55 (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure why there is a picture of a macaque monkey also, when the studies were done on humans, and the lack of information is unhelpful. However, in an interview with one of the lead authors (http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110628/full/news.2011.388.html) it suggests that the macaques in question were likely to be hot-spring dwelling japanese macaques, which is interesting from an AAT point of view, because their lifestyle may have some parallels with the waterside ape hypothesis (ie. they are not full-time inhabitants of water-based environments, but nevertheless rely heavily on it).
The original fingertip section that was in the AAH page was a shortened version of what is on the fingertip page, and I think that the section there which has more references to more recent scientific research articles shows that the issue is relevant to humans that merits a mention on the AAH page. I think if it is paraphrased, it could be added to the "Evidence for a waterside context" section. I've copied and included it below for your convenience:
Fingertip wrinkling in water
Although a common phenomenon, the underlying functions and mechanism of fingertip wrinkling following immersion in water are relatively unexplored. Originally it was assumed that the wrinkles were simply the result of the skin swelling in water, but it is now understood that the furrows are caused by the blood vessels constricting due to signalling by the sympathetic nervous system in response to water exposure. One hypothesis for why this occurs, the “rain tread” hypothesis, posits that the wrinkles may help the fingers grip things when wet, possibly being an adaption from a time when humans dealt with rain and dew in forested primate habitats. A 2013 study supporting this hypothesis found that the wrinkled fingertips provided better handling of wet objects but gave no advantage for handling dry objects. However, a 2014 study attempting to reproduce these results was unable to demonstrate any improvement of handling wet objects with wrinkled fingertips.
I also think that in between "swimming" and "fat babies" there could be a section mentioning the infant swimming reflex. Whilst many mammals have a basic "dive reflex" involving bradycardia and vasoconstriction, as far as I'm aware, only human babies have a reflex where the glottis spontaneously closes, to reduce the risk of drowning. This reflex is usually lost at six months, but can be prolonged by training. Would it be possible to include something about this unique feature?Aquapess (talk) 18:41, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi Chris, thanks for your reply. I read through your comments and also your previous thread explaining about why you wanted to redraft the page. I agree with a lot of your points, and I think that the previous page was a mish mash of arguments here and there which is not helpful or informative.
I understand your point that you felt that AAH was largely Morgan's theory, and that you've tried to make this page an illustration of her ideas, which I think you've done competently (and explains why you put her as a reference for the water birth, rather than NICE or RCCOG, and the fingertip wrinkling, as you've said above).
HOWEVER, the AAT hasn't remained static since Morgan, and there have been a lot of developments in terms of research since her books, not only the finger wrinkling research, but many mentioned by David Attenborough in his second BBC Radio 4 show recently. Many AAT supporters now believe a slightly modified version of Morgan's ideas, which are a result of a synthesis of new evidence since her initial works, including those mentioned above and by others on these threads. Some people jokingly/affectionately call this a "watered-down" view of the AAT, and is more like a water-side ape, since it is unlikely that humans ever had a 100 % solely water-based life. Some people call this the "Waterside Ape" theory, as was the title of Attenborough's show. The theory undoubtedly builds on Morgan's ideas, but as with all scientific theories, has responded to emerging evidence over the past 40 - 50 years when Morgan first started publicising the idea.
Therefore, my question is, if you would like to keep this page solely to describe ONLY Morgan's ideas, then does this mean that AAT/Waterside Ape supporters should/would be able to start a new wikipaedia page describing the current Waterside Ape theory? My feeling is that since the two topics are quite intertwined, there would be a lot of repetition between the two pages. However, this would free up the second page to summarise recent research, including those mentioned. What is the general consensus on this? Aquapess (talk) 12:44, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
The article is already not limited to Morgan, and must not be. As you say, the Waterside ape version is closely intertwined with the older version, and is not really separable (we call that a FORK, and it's strongly deprecated), so I'd certainly agree that we must not create any "second article" on the same topic. The article is quite short and there are plenty of bits and bytes available, so if we need to say more on the Waterside ape, suitably sourced, we can and will do that in this article. We have however already relied heavily on fairly weak sources (Morgan, the BBC) for a scientific article: further detail should come from scientific sources, preferably review papers not primary research. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:02, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Aquapess, I don't really understand your request. The final section (now called Evidence for a waterside context) is very much based on recent research which supports the basic ideas. If you look carefully at the references you'll see that it includes a transcription of the Attenborough series, as the original radio version is not available outside UK (it took me a little time!) In particular it is my (unconfirmed) understanding that it was David Attenborough who made the running on demonstrating that vernix caseosa is seen in other aquatic mammals. The name (AAT/AAH) has been questioned since 1998 when Tobias asked for an alternative, and "waterside" seems the only common factor: "waterside ape" & "waterside hypotheses" have both been used. I don't think it's the job of Misplaced Pages to decide, and it's not just about a radio programme. If there was a second article, why would anyone look for it? It would certainly be good if the supporters could make up their minds! Chris55 (talk) 15:45, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi Chiswick Chap, so sorry, I didn't get time to have a thorough read of all the changes you made, but I've had a look through now and I see that you have included a fair amount of the research mentioned in Attenborough's show. I appreciate that this must have taken some time, and the overall article is a vast improvement on the previous version. I've made another comment regarding the fingertip wrinkling above however.Aquapess (talk) 18:41, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
The finger wrinkling is an odd case; it's been in and out of the article, and as Chris says it doesn't fit in easily. We must remain neutral - we can't put in every bit of possibly suggestive evidence to try to "prove" AAH, that would certainly be taking sides (WP:POV), and we don't have one: our position is simply that here is a theory that people stated different positions over, and here is what they argued. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:21, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
References
^ Changizi, M.; Weber, R.; Kotecha, R.; Palazzo, J. (2011). "Are Wet-Induced Wrinkled Fingers Primate Rain Treads?". Brain, Behavior and Evolution. 77 (4): 286–90. doi:10.1159/000328223. PMID21701145.
^ Haseleu, Julia; Omerbašić, Damir; Frenzel, Henning; Gross, Manfred; Lewin, Gary R. (2014). Goldreich, Daniel (ed.). "Water-Induced Finger Wrinkles Do Not Affect Touch Acuity or Dexterity in Handling Wet Objects". PLoS ONE. 9: e84949. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0084949.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
Aquapess, I find it rather confusing when you invent new sections retrospectively and don't place comments in sequence. Please consider other users.
You've now added several other references for wrinkled fingers but they seem to cancel each other out and don't add any historical insights. (And references don't really work on talk pages.) You also refer to fat babies. You should be aware that Cunnane & Crawford have an entirely different explanation of fat babies to Morgan, although both of them relate to AAH. Morgan thinks it's to help them float: Cunnane & Crawford start from the staggering fact that 74% of the newborn's energy is taken by their brain to argue that the baby needs fat as an emergency energy supply. I find that rather compelling but it shows how difficult it is to relate physiological effects to evolutionary advantage. That's the main reason I've downplayed such arguments in the article. Chris55 (talk) 23:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi Chris, some fair points, I agree with the confusing format, but I was just following the interruptions as others had done to me - see comments arising between points 1 and 2 of my original comment above for example.
Also, very interesting comments about the baby fat, but I don't wish to debate the issue - what I was interested in adding is the glottis closure reflex in babies under 6 months after the baby fat sectionAquapess (talk) 17:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
You're right. I agree it should be there in the Fat Babies section. Please add it with citations. The problem is with your "as far as I know". To go beyond being a guess or a hypothesis you have to eliminate the other possibilities. All mammals start in an aqueous environment and it's not until the amniotic sac (or equivalent) breaks that they start to use their lungs. Are humans different in the way they make that transition? I don't know and it would presumably take some tests on other species to establish it. It would be a brave experimenter that risks drowning baby chimps to find out! So whilst it's fine in the 'hypothesis' section it would take better citations to have it in the research section. Chris55 (talk) 18:08, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi Chris, yes it makes sense that you would have this reflex in the womb, the interesting thing about humans is that this persists for up to six months, much longer than any other infant reflexes, and with regular use, can be maintained beyond the six months, whereas if the reflex was solely to keep out amniotic fluid, one would imagine that it would disappear very quickly once outside the womb. However, I agree as well that it needs careful research with solid citations, so I will look into this and then suggest a passage later with reputable sources of information.Aquapess (talk) 15:53, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Summary graphic
Arguments proposed by Hardy/Morgan and other related works (reference list at bottom)
Great thanks to @Chris55: for the redraft, the current version looks much better and up to date.
I propose to add this summary graphic, perhaps near the section "Hardy/Morgan hypothesis". It includes more points than those listed, but all of the points can be traced back to the original proposal and other related published works (peer reviewed papers or edited volumes, see the reference list at the bottom of image). It could provide a clearer picture of the complex set of ideas, and surely we should emphasize in some way that, among these points only a minor subset have produced testable hypothesis (e.g. those mentioned in the "waterside context" section) while most others are either unsupported or remain to be tested as of today. Chakazul (talk) 10:59, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
It's a fine wall poster, but it is perhaps markedly less suitable as a graphic in an article, where a single message needs to be conveyed in a small space (a single section or paragraph with a relevant illustration) rather than a complex message in a large space (not available on mobile devices, for example). Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:53, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Right, I was trying to make an encyclopedic summary of the model, but maybe it's not the best format for use in wikipedia. One possibility is to chop it into several diagrams, but that will overwhelm the page Chakazul (talk) 01:19, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
An excellent piece of work, informative if a bit overwhelming! I love it and would happily use it in talks as a wall poster, not sure if it can transfer to a graphic on a computer screen, which is a shame, but chopping (seperating a better word) it would work if presented as image / text of image / reference to text. Just a thought. Edmund Patrick – confer08:06, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
I agree with others in liking the graphics. But maybe it could be split up into small sections. One thing I find odd is the reference to the man's bald head. Alister Hardy has a lovely graphic in his original article (p643) suggesting why hair on the head is the major place left and it would be nice to see that (the original is copyright of course: I did approach New Scientist without any response. You could also annotate the swimming woman.) Also a picture of a chimp wading would be great. I haven't been able to find a free photo of one. Chris55 (talk) 18:31, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
If we are to use any of it, we'd need individual graphics elements with no text, or almost no text (generally best to have none, as other language Wikis don't specially want English; and text works very poorly on thumbnail images, best keep it to captions separate from the image). But not sure any of these images will work like that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:16, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for all the comments and I agree that separating it into several graphs with no text would better fit the wiki format. The text would be in the caption but that will make it very, very long. Or the points (as well as the references) could be added to the text proper, even better, listed/tabulated in a new section "Arguments from other proponents", but would it violate WP:DUEWEIGHT by presenting too much arguments (most are speculations)?
@Chris55: Yes there are different arguments about the scalp hair, one that it remained for blocking sunlight according to Hardy (see the left side of "head & upper body"), one that the long hair in females for infants to cling on according to Morgan, and that the bald head in males for further streamlining as argued by Verhaegen. These lead to some proponents think that males would have engaged more in diving and females more in floating/swimming. Chakazul (talk) 03:55, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Censoring the topic
This article has a very weird history. Every time some one dares to describe what it's talking about, it will be a matter of days, before someone will remove everything pertinent, under random false pretences. Somehow, with this particular "pseudoscientific" idea, people are not supposed to be told, what it's actually suggesting. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 11:45, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
To describe "what it's talking about", the article must use reliable, independent secondary sources. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary work meant to reflect accepted knowledge about a topic. It is not an ersatz secondary work giving an exposition of fringe theories based on primary sources from their proponents. Alexbrn (talk) 11:56, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Like I said, false pretences. That's not what this is about. It's a very weird phenomenon to observe. A lot of people have been told for decades that this entire topic is pseudoscience, so that's what they expect to read at a place like this. But if you would make a balanced encyclopedic presentation on what all the hubbub is about, you just can't get that point across. And instead of thinking that maybe they misunderstood the whole thing, people go into a state panic. "This can't be right! I know this is pseudo!" And the only outcome is that people start hacking away at random, still desperately trying to censor the topic away, if not only subconsciously.
It's so dreadful to anticipate the worst of human psychology, and be proven right. You look at a rewrite and go, "Well, this is at least a bit closer to what's been talked about all along. I wonder how long it will take this time, before the book burning starts?" And in this case... a fortnight. This has been going on for years now on this article. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 12:30, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Remember to WP:FOC. Commenting on other editors is disruptive. This article is subject to discretionary sanctions and disruptive behaviour is likely to attract editing restrictions. Alexbrn (talk) 12:45, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Before I get thrown back into the dungeon by people who doesn't care what the truth is, let me quote P. K. Dick: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." So we would be an old beach ape, so what? CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 12:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
As soon as you have reliable sources supporting your claims (and I can't really see what they are, here) you have good grounds to update the article. If you have no sources describing this hypothesis as a mainstream scientific opinion, your rambling above is moot. I strongly suggest you adhere to WP:AGF (and WP:FOC) and refrain from personal attacks. Kleuske (talk) 13:05, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Deleting Dan Dennett? A specialized natural scientific philosopher? "He doesn't say what I want to hear! I need an excuse for burning his book! He's a philosopher, it's perfect! Begone!"
You all know what's going on here. Do take note as to how long it will take for every notion of Phillip Tobias stating this isn't an unreasonable idea is censored away, too. We are being dictated the truth on this topic. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
"Darwin's Dangerous Idea"??? How 'bout that? I quote Dennett:
"During the last few years, when I have found myself in the company of distinguished biologists, evolutionary theorists, paleo-anthropologists, and other experts, I have often asked them just to tell me, please, exactly why Elaine Morgan must be wrong about the aquatic ape theory. I haven't yet had a reply worth mentioning, aside from those who admit, with a twinkle in their eyes, that they have often wondered the same thing." (ISBN 0-684-82471-X, p. 244)
Of course, this extremely relevant quote was censored out of this article yesterday, so how could you know of its existence? You're not supposed to know. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, mate, I've spend all my patience for human stupidity a long time ago. I still fail to see how in the hell this perfectly reasonable splash-splash idea can be so brutalized by people claiming to adhere to Darwinian consensus. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 22:28, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
That's not WP's problem. You want to promote this theory? Get a degree in biology and start working on finding evidence for it. But arguing here is just going to get you banned from editing. Also, complaining about human stupidity when you don't get your way is an even quicker way to get blocked. You want to know something? I think this is a wonderfully nifty theory. I find it fascinating, with broad explanatory power. But I'm not going to use my own personal beliefs to inform the way I edit this project because I'm smart enough to know I will quickly get blocked if I do. I suggest you try to be that smart, as well. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:33, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Then there's no issue with the sources currently being censored out of the article. Except for one little problem: They don't say what is being expected of them to say — That. The. Aquatic. Ape. Hypothesis. Is. Nuts. Thrasymachus was right. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 23:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Just tell me, how and when this article will stop being sabotaged with Wiki's tacit. Why on Wiki is it so much easier for a fringe theory that's blatantly wrong to be allowed to list what it's actually suggesting than one of the rare ones, that are on to something? That is so bloody ridiculous. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 00:15, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm surprised that the whole "Hardy/Morgan hypothesis" section was deleted. Even if AAH is totally wrong, surely it has to be properly described so the readers could know what's wrong? I don't see why secondary sources are required for such a plain description of the original thesis. Compare to "Gaia hypothesis" and "Cold fusion", they have been described as fringe/pseudoscience as well, if no original source is allowed then most of their contents (e.g. "Details" section) would be removed? Chakazul (talk) 08:30, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Because Misplaced Pages reflects "accepted knowledge" about topics. Digging up the original text and presenting here is an undue reflection of a fringe theory based on[REDACTED] editors' selections. If Morgan's notions have any weight at all, it should be easy to find commentary & description in secondary sources -- the kind of sources which should form the basis of all our articles. Alexbrn (talk) 08:34, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
So should we remove the "Detail" section of Gaia hypothesis and the "History" section of Cold fusion because they are not "accepted knowledge"?
As for secondary source, there're planty of them (e.g. Langdon's 1997 critique, BBC's 1998 TV program, David Attenborough's 2005 and 2016 BBC radio programmes), which have described and discussed the original thesis in details. Chakazul (talk) 08:50, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Also please do not remove that section (a significant change to the article that hasn't happened before in its history) before a proper discussion here. Chakazul (talk) 08:57, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
If other articles have problems, it is not a good reason to make this one poor too. If there are secondary sources on the AAH, it may be possible to have a sensible section. Scholarly independent sources would be best (so ideally not popular media). There is no policy that requires discussion before removing bad content: quite the opposite. Alexbrn (talk) 09:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Bad content being anything that doesn't state what you have been indoctrinated to know to be true: That. The. Aquatic. Ape. Hypothesis. Is. Nuts. That is what people are supposed to read in here. You get that point across easily listing the core arguments of the likes of Gaia or cold fusion or Bigfoot or Holy Blood Holy Grail, but doing exactly the same with them beach apes, suddenly that doesn't come across. Suddenly, it doesn't look nuts. So, there the core arguments have to go. 'Cause the indoctrination of the fraternities comes long before the scientific method. 'Cause we haven't moved a single step since Copernicus. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 11:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
The theory has very little support in anything like its original form and it I think is quite rightly listed as pseudoscience. But I agree the section should not have been removed. Misplaced Pages is supposed to describe things whether they are nuts or not providing thee topic is notable and there are reliable sources. The topic is notable with lots of secondary sources writing about it. Those people are considered experts in the field whether they are considered nuts or not. Dmcq (talk) 11:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Fringe Status
I'd like to update the "WP:FRINGE" or "pseudoscience" status of the AAH in light of one recent secondary review -- David Attenborough's BBC 4 radio documentary "The Waterside Ape" (episodestranscript). It presented new evidence supporting some aspects of the AAH, namely:
Diving physiology in modern humans
Aquatic diet and brain evolution
Diving signs in human fossils (auditory exostosis)
Wading bipedalism.
and this acts as a basis of the article's "Evidence for a waterside context" section.
There's one critic article and a response from the scientists . According to the scientists' response, the critic article is actually critizing the original AAH while ignored all the evidence presented in the documentary.
Since the scope of the original AAH is so large that different aspects would have varying degrees of verification / falsification. For example, the original Hardy/Morgan timeline that "one semi-aquatic phase occured in the fossil gap" has been thoroughly disproved by the discovery of hominin species like Ardipithecus, while at the other extreme, the utilization of aquatic resources by human ancestors has been widely accepted in archaeology and paleoanthropology. Therefore, I suggest to treat the topic per WP:FRINGE/PS:
Those aspects enjoying evidence support and/or academic acceptance (now called the Waterside model) should be considered alternative theoretical formulations with potentials of becoming mainstream.
Other untested aspects (e.g. hooded nose, hairlessness, and most part of the original AAH) should be considered questionable science and not giving undue weight.
The AAH as a whole should NOT be considered "pseudoscience" due to point 1 and also the RfC result that rejected such a notion.
Well it is classified as pseudoscience by a number of people and there is precious little evidence for the original idea to such an extent that it has morphed into a waterside hypothesis and moved to millions of years ago.
What I would like to see happen though is less people coming around trying to remove sections of the article as pseudoscience. As far as I can see currently the article is well structured and fairly describes the theory and the reasons it has not gained acceptance. Going around removing a summary of what the theory is about is simply vandalism. There are books and articles discussing the various points, we don't need big long lists of citations to everyone who has dismissed a point in the section outlining the main points just so the main thing being discussed can be listed. Dmcq (talk) 11:20, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Please see WP:NOTVAND. It is fine for Misplaced Pages to describe fringe theories from a mainstream perspective. It is not fine for Misplaced Pages to be expounding those theories at length from its proponents writings. If there is no mainstream perspective on a fringe notion, Misplaced Pages must be silent on that notion. Alexbrn (talk) 11:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Translated: "Keep silencing it to death!" Well, that's not working anymore, darling. 'Cause we most likely are them ol' beach apes. Even if you do keep adding on conditions to keep with the program dictated by aristocracy refusing to be proven wrong. CEngelbrecht2 (talk) 11:44, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
,_early_1900s,_Central_Africa,_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo,_Pende_people,_wood,_fiber_-_Cleveland_Museum_of_Art_-_DSC08700.JPG){kind=small}
