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Revision as of 20:56, 24 September 2006

Gender studies Unassessed

This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Misplaced Pages requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention

For older discussions see:

• Talk:Feminism (archive)
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 2
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 3 Debates from 2004 and earlier, 19.03.2004
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 4
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 5
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 6

Response section

I think, at least in part, it should stay. The criticism section references *certain masculist concerns* regarding feminism and mentions Warren Farrell some issues he takes with it. In the response section, I put quotes from actual published journalists and a sociologist who address at least three of Farrell's complaints/beliefs listed above about it from a feminist perspective. NeoApsara 22:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I would love to see the mentions of Farrell in the rest of the article cut down, too. He's just not as notable as the article makes him seem. Personally, I would prefer to do that rather than having a lengthy response to his work (which may give it more credence than it deserves), because the article needs to be shorter. The crticisms and quotes would be great for the Warren Farrell article -- perhaps they're already there, I haven't looked at it. Catamorphism 22:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree he isn't as notable as is implied (perhaps it should go in his own section?) and that was my first thought. But it was there and he was not unknown to me (I added some of his not-so-cool quotes in the Warren Farrell section) so I was aware of his critics, hence the section. He is mentioned in the masculism/MRA parts, so if we cut back some Warren Farrell talk int he article then the feminism, masculism, and Men's rights articles can just compliment each other. NeoApsara 01:32, 30 May 2006 (UT)

The use of the term half-truth is biasing and inappropriate. Preferred terms would be controversial opinion or view. The referenced idea is a legal theory unresolved in most juristiction. No factual assertions such as a view being a "half-truth" can be made about it.

Commercials

Just one random point to throw in about feminism: Did anybody ever notice that males (especially fathers) are generally portrayed in an unfavorable light? By unfavorable, I mean stupid or clumsy. Women, however, are NEVER shown to be either of the two in commercials, and are in fact portrayed to be far more intelligent. On the flip side, one could argue that women are portrayed as sex objects in some commercials. At least some food for thought.

Feminism today and its issues

I think this section is very problematic. Most of the article emphasises how there are many different strands of feminism, and then this section is just about outlining the concerns of one of them. It mentions no organisations and cites no sources. Personally I think it wouldn't harm the article is the whole section was just removed, but I don't want to do that without discussing it here first. Maybe it could be replaced with a description of the major current Women's organisations and their programs? Ashmoo 23:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur completely. By the way, thanks for all your work removing questionable content from this article. Catamorphism 23:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Catamorphism. I removed the whole section. I think anything I took out should be re-included under the sections devoted to each branch of feminism. Ashmoo 04:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Political Emancipation

The wiki page Political_emancipation could use some attention. Currently it is only a stub. Particularly the explanation of the term 'political emancipation' entailing 'equal status of individual citizens in relation to the state, equality before the law, regardless of religion, property, or other “private” characteristics of individual persons' is construed to be an 'opinion' and 'not delivering a neutral point of view.' Does anyone have more expert information on the word 'emancipation' also being used in the political context of establishing (or any step moving towards) equality in light of the law? When fewer than 1 in 7 US Senators and House of Representatives are women, ], and the United States comes in only as the 61st nation in the world in this respect, would you say that political emancipation has been achieved?

FredrickS 18:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)zz

Yes, I would. Just because somebody isn't voted into office doesn't mean they can't be. If only 1 out of 7 Senators/Representatives are wonen, isn't it possible that women either weren't running or simply lost to a male candidate? The people decide who they want to elect. Just because there aren't equal numbers of men and women doesn't mean that women don't have the opportunity.

Addition to the world stats

A user has added the below

*However, critics of feminism often cite the following as evidence that a female bias also exists in western societies such as America: * For every woman who is murdered, three men are murdered. (US Bureau of Justice Statistics, Criminal Victimisation in the United States) * Only 6% of occupational deaths in the United states occur to women. (US Department of Health and Human Services) * Men aged between 25 and 34 are four times more likely to commit suicide than a woman of the same age. Over the past 20 years, the suicide rate for 25-34 year old men has increased 26%, yet for 25-34 year old women, it has decreased 33%. (US Department of Health and Human Services) * Men die at a much higher rate from all 15 top causes of death. (United Nations Demographic Yearbook)'

• Which critics of feminism cite the following evidence?
• What is a "female bias"?
• How are these statistics related to feminism / womens rights? --Zleitzen 19:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like Original Research to me. Notice how it cites primary sources, but no source for the anonymous 'critics'. But more importantly, this is the 'Feminism' article, not the 'Status of Men', 'Status of Women' or 'Are Men or Women better off?' article. So only discussions about Feminism itself should be included. Which this para is not. Ashmoo 23:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's one opinion. I did, however, see some mention of suicides and suicide rates earlier on or in an archive of previous discussions. Furthermore, this is a talk page. If that user wants to add it, he/she can.

Lead image?

Wouldn't the Venus/female symbol be a more appropriate lead image, given its strong public association with the feminist movement in general? Or has this been discussed here before? Kasreyn 19:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know this hasn't been discussed. I'd be fine with that as the lead image, though I think an even better choice would be to attach that image to a new section discussing its use within feminist movements. -Smahoney 20:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

good lord, is this the National Organization of Women?

can we get some "opposing views" in here? You know, the type that is taking up over half of all the anti-feminist articles on this whole site?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.152.105.16 (talk • contribs) .

There is no "National Organization of Women." Slrubenstein | Talk 09:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

That statement was meant to be sarcastic, Slrubenstein. But to answer the opposing views question, there are other articles related (and maybe even linked somewhere) that criticize feminism. Try checking around. Actually, it seems like I made an error. There IS a National Organization of Women... it was started in 1966. Check the article on Second-Wave Feminism.

Actually, it seems like I made an error. There IS a National Organization of Women... it was started in 1966. Check the article on Second-Wave Feminism.

You ae wrong. There is no National Organization of Women. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

There isn't one called National Organization of Women, but there is an National Organization for Women though... -Localzuk 22:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This is correct. And the difference is not trivial - at stake in the wording is the very issue of ehther feminism is inclusive or exclusive. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

References

I have added a unreferenced tag to one of the sections. I don't have time to read through the entire article but that section contains statements such as The feminist movements have altered the nature of heterosexual relationships in Western and other societies affected by feminism. , In these circumstances, men and women have had to adapt to relatively new situations, sometimes causing confusions about role and identity. , In response to the family issue, many socialist feminists blame this on the lack of state-provided child-care facilities. and many others. Each of these statements need referencing and also removal of weasel words such as 'many' in the last statement above.-Localzuk 13:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the whole 'Effects' section suffers from lack of sources. The effects of feminism are a topic of much debate in academia and the culture at large, but this section makes many assertions without sources.

The 'moral education' section is particularly bad. It reads like a debate between two wikieditors. Its biggest problem is that it never clearly defines what 'moral education' means. Are we talking 'sexual mores', and if so which kind? Christian sexual mores, Western sexual mores? Or are we talking about socialization, or something else? Ashmoo 02:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed as original research. All unsourced material should go, and there is still a lot of it on this page. --Zleitzen 02:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

No matter. It will probably come right back anyways, sourced.

Eurocentralism

Under the criticism section I think there needs to be a mention of the rampant Eurocentralism within the Feminist movement and how often the Feminist movement will use its (Western) standards as a 'one-size-fits-all' model for women everywhere, while ignoring their specific culture, customs and traditions which may appear repulsive to most Western Feminists. When talking to and reading about non-Western (Africans and Asians mainly) one of the biggest criticisms I've heard is that Western Feminists (i.e. the bulk of Feminists) come across as another load of White Foreigners telling them that X, Y and Z is wrong (becuase they say it's wrong) and that you should do A, B and C (because that's what we think you should do) in a way similar to how the European Colonists would tell them that their practices were backwards and barbaric (because they say so) and they should do what they do (because that's what we think you should, for your own good of course) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.114.182.17 (talk • contribs) .

This is covered under postcolonial feminism. The article is still very small, if you have expertise in the topic, it would be great if you could add your input. Ashmoo 02:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Women artists

There should be some sort of exchange between the contributors to this article and women artists; maybe also category additions at foot of both articles so there can be proper linkaging. Wimmin 11:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Anti-feminists?

I have added a cite needed tag to the section which describes Barbara Ehrenreich, as well as other female authors, as anti-feminist. Note that the article on Ehrenreich puts her in category: feminist scholars. It needs to be made clear that Misplaced Pages is not engaging in original research, so whatever source is being used for the claim of anti-feminism must be cited. Also, there is also an apparent paradox; how can Ehrenreich be both a "feminist" scholar, as well as anti-feminist? If I understand correctly, "Feminist scholar" means "a feminist who is also a scholar"; if it was intended to mean "a scholar who studies feminism", the proper term would seem to be a "Feminism scholar". Kasreyn 08:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOR and WP:VER in the "Criticisms" section

I have placed OR and "uncited" tags in the "Criticisms" section. This is necessitated by the stereotyped sociological assertions made in the following paragraph which was just recently added: ... Kenosis 16:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Many who support masculism argue that because of both traditional gender roles and sexism infused into society by feminists, males are and have been oppressed. Marriage Rights advocates oppose feminist aspirations to replace the traditional family, as illustrated by statments made by a variety of feminist leaders such as Shelia Cronan's view that marriage constitutes slavery for women, and the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution and that freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage. Dr. Mary Jo Bane, associate director of Wellesley College's Center for Research on Woman suggested that to raise children with equality, they should be taken from families and communally raised. Men and Family rights groups oppose feminists such as Robin Morgan, the openly lesbian editor of Ms. Magazine, who advocated 'man-hating' as an honorable and viable political act and concludes the inequities between men and women can not be resolved until marriage is destroyed. Family and Men's Rights groups are also critical of Feminist encouragment of Lesbian agendas which undermine the traditional role of men in the family, such as Sheila Cronan's National NOW Times January 1988 interview statements declaring every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist. Many critics of feminism are alarmed by the prevalence of lesbians such as Patricia Ireland, the head of NOW, in feminist leadership roles. Men's Rights advocates view much of contemporary feminist issues extremist and unreasonable now that all the reasonable demands such as equal rights has been achieved. Issues such as the Violence Against Women Act are viewed as discriminatory and funding radical feminist or feminazi villification, profiling and demogoguery of men. Father's Rights advocates are critical of feminist efforts to block shared parenting after divorce and especially advocating or instructing women to fabricate false domestic violence or abuse accusations to win greater child custody and child support. ... 16:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention that the entire section was unsourced. Good call. Kasreyn 04:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Broken table

The table whose title is Female share of seats in elected national chambers in November 2004 (percent) looks wrong in both Internet Explorer 6 and Firefox 1.5. The table overlaps with some headings on the page. Andrew Moylan 10:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I saw it too. In addition could somebody recheck the information in the table. I read a wikipedia article a few days ago giving completly different information on female representation in elected assemblies. Unfortunatly I can't remember what the article was...but if anyone of you should stumble on it please fix it.

asking for comments regarding the exclusion of women in List_of_major_opera_composers ==

I would like to request comments and suggestions for the following situation in Talk:List_of_major_opera_composers#Not_so_fast.__There_is_obvious_POV_gender_bias_here . This is a very long, complicated situation involving whether women should be included on this list of Opera composers. As a male musician who has done quite alot of research on women in music, I firmly believe that a representative sample should be on the list (I'm not suggesting 50/50 or even 30/70, just two or three representative women). When I first noticed this article, it was completely unsourced, and the "important composers" were chosen by a collegial system ("I like that." "I don't like that") without any mention of sources. I marked the article NPOV and Unsourced. The article quickly became sourced, but I continued to bring up the issue of gender bias and brought three sources to the discussion after consulting the International Alliance of Women in Music ], all of which were dismissed because they only contained works by women. However, when the list was finally completed (I was asked not to participate, as I was considered to be have a POV agenda towards women and living composers), six of the ten lists used only contained the names of men. The other four only contained one woman (Judith Weir). If lists of only women composers are unacceptable, why are lists of only men composers acceptable? And was are sources which could prove the importance of women in music dismissed as having a POV agenda.

A colleague who is a teacher of Women's studies at an American University has suggested that this is a textbook case of "canon forming" or the creation of hierarchies using preconceived notions. The process involves making a hypothesis using the notions that one already has, such as "Important operas are only composed by dead, White, European males", using the sources already utilised for making the hypothesis for proving the statement and then dismissing contradictary sources or discrediting individuals who make statements which oppose the primary hypothesis.

I am certainly not asking anyone to get directly involved here, as this is already become quite violent and an RfA is currently underway. I would however appreciate any ideas concerning how to confront this sort of gender bias, any useful sources and other ideas, as well as general comments. Thank you Jean-Thierry Boisseau 20:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• Unassessed Gender studies articles
• Unknown-importance Gender studies articles
• WikiProject Gender studies articles