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2017 Jerusalem Light Rail stabbing

2017 Jerusalem Light Rail stabbing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Article about a recent stabbing. No indication that it will receive WP:SUSTAINED coverage or have any enduring encyclopedic value. Likely fails WP:EVENT, WP:GEOSCOPE, and WP:PERSISTENCE.- MrX 20:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC) - MrX 20:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Note to closer: if you choose delete, please remember to delete the edit notice. El_C 23:49, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. - MrX 20:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. - MrX 20:52, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

• keep this is a terror attack receiving significant coverage in international media- bbc nyt, reutets, cnn, etc etc. Also local. Seeing the 2017 st petersburg metro bombing has an entry, there is reason to treat this terror event differently. The article itself is well sourced and well written. Probably both the article and the afd should've waited a few days.Icewhiz (talk) 21:01, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
• Note, as I said on the article's talk page, that many editors who work on Israel-related articles on are observing the Passover holiday, which continues through Wednesday, and are not editing at present. As are many Israeli journalists. I suggested there that we should wait to hold this discussion until the country returns from holiday.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
• Keep as per usual. by this I mean that it has become normal to keep articles about terrorist attacks because they generate substantive international coverage, as is the case here.( cf. 2017 Paris machete attack, 2016 stabbing of Brussels police officers, etc.) Nom gives a WP:CRYSTAL argument for deletion, but, Note that in fact terrorist attacks tend to be revisited and referenced going forward, in this case, it is likely to be part of the growing attention being paid to suicide by soldier, in which, as Shin Bet is suggesting here, an already suicidal perp commits a terrorist attack in order to achieve a socially approved, even lauded, death. Note also, as I have argued before at AFD, that it is far easier to create articles on these incidents soon after they occur - and sources are available without access to paywalled archives - rather than to hope that someone goes back years later to create an article when an incident like the 1980 Antwerp summer camp attack or the 1996 Paris Métro bombing comes back into the news.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:09, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
• Merge Some content to Jerusalem Light Rail as per the discussion ongoing at Talk:2017 Jerusalem Light Rail stabbing#Proposed merge with Jerusalem Light Rail. I see no reason this particular incident is more notable than any other unfortunate murder. AusLondonder (talk) 00:12, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• Keep: Stick a knife in this one, it's done. I think it's time we reevaluate the notability of terrorist attacks in general, since this is one AFD too many for such articles. Cyrus the Penner (talk) 01:11, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• The article fails WP:NOTNEWS and, by definition, WP:LASTING, but those policies are dead and never applied anyway. I'll note three things. First, there is already a page List_of_violent_incidents_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict,_2017, which deals with violent incidents of all kinds. Of those, only some incidents are given wide coverage and people create articles on them, but that situation is so normal that it's not even worth talking about. Second: the motives of the attacker are not totally clear; he seems to be mentally unstable and had a history of sexual abuse. Lastly, technically the creator of this page shouldn't be creating pages at all in this area, since they don't meet WP:ARBPIA3#500/30. The latter is not too important; I'm sure someone else would have created the page if not for them. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:23, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete Just imagine how stupid would it be to actually have this attack as a stand-alone article in a written encyclopedia. This attack hasn't yet generated any significant outcome. It is only that a foreign resident was killed, so obviously some British newspapers and other international sources would care. I also don't see a reason for this incident to be recorded on the rail's article, especially not in more than one sentence. The community should start having a consensus to start articles on recent terror attacks rather than having a consensus to remove them, we always have someone starting an article and then thanks to democracy, which is not the way of Misplaced Pages, we end up with countless articles about incidents that usually generate news reports because the media likes to support terrorism by popularizing it and enjoy ad revenue. The only reason for this article and other simmilar articles to exist is that there is "major news coverege" on that matter, but that's not enough to justify a Misplaced Pages article.

If we look at the article we have and remove the section headlines, it really looks like no other than a news article:

Per WP:LASTING, this article is also too early, though I strongly believe it won't have any significant impact with encyclopedic value in the future. The attack didn't generate any big controversy, there isn't a big, complicated story here, there was no real response, millitary, legal or whatever, that followed this attack, only shock and grief.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:30, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment no comment on whether the event is notable or not, but per E.M.Gregory's comment I think the discussion should be put on hold until more experienced editors from Israel get to comment on the issue. Inter&anthro (talk) 12:43, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
  • I disagree. Content decisions can and should be determined by consensus of all editors, not a special group of editors.- MrX 13:21, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

AfDs are supposed to run for a week, so they will have plenty of time anyway. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:26, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS, which is still a policy (or so I've been told) and policies trump guidelines (or so I've been told). — MShabazz /_Stalk 14:32, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• Kееp WP:NOTNEWS doesn't apply here is not "routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities".Its meets WP:CRIME as "high-profile criminal act" and WP:DIVERSE--Shrike (talk) 16:35, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Shrike, please read the full policy of the pages you adduce, for instance the advice on that policy page to refrain from creating articles on the strength of breaking news. It's just below the section you cite.Nishidani (talk) 21:00, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes I read it.But you maybe missed WP:RAPID--Shrike (talk) 21:32, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• Keep Per arguments made by Shrike, and others.Juneau Mike (talk) 19:33, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete. This will be, as usual, voted in. The policies are clear, and it is in violation of them all, and none cited here have any other function than to give the impression this has something to do with policy. The only principle governing these articles is that any act of lethal violence undertaken by a Palestinian against a non-Palestinian has encyclopedic value. It's a form of politics on Misplaced Pages that survives by inattention to the clear evidence of our guidelines. Shrike for example reverts out this as non violent from thelist, an episode widely reported as causing a sick Palestinian child's death by deliberate medical neglect because they could not extort from him information about his neighbours (here,here,here here, here,here, here etc.) The incident is widely reported. This cannot even be listed as as form of extortionate violence leading to a death. One could, as is being done in this article, compose an article on the case and hope it would not be deleted. No. Responsible editors refrain from that because, however tragic, indeed evil, the incident may have been, it fails wiki criteria for notability, as does most of the daily thuggery in that area, which is best left to lists. Nishidani (talk) 20:22, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete Isn't there a list this can go on? There doesn't seem to be enough to say about it to warrant an independent page, and I don't forsee significant additions being made to the content in the future. There is the same problem in some articles about terror attacks in Turkey where there isn't enough to say to meet notability guidelines, just a one-day news event. Fortunately Wikiproject Israel has a couple of pretty comprehensive lists this data could be added to. The category Kurdistan Workers' Party attacks has 6 articles. Palestinian terrorism has 169 pages and an additional 7 subcategories. Agree, "The only principle governing these articles is that any act of lethal violence undertaken by a Palestinian against a non-Palestinian has encyclopedic value" Seraphim System 13:29, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Note that In fact, when sources exist to support notability, we add incidents to a list AND keep the article, cf. Zürich Islamic center shooting, 2017 Paris machete attack, etc.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:43, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
• Response I don't think a one day news event constitutes sources to support notability. If in the future this attack is studied in further secondary sources, and becomes significant in terrorism studies for any number of reasons editors have listed above (including policy changes, military action, or some other widely covered social significance like the gay pride stabbing) - then it could be added. Maybe it's too soon, but not every stabbing in every city in every country of the world meets notability guidelines only because it was covered briefly in news sources. Seraphim System 14:46, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• delete per excellent arguments by Bolter, Nishidani and Seraphim. --NSH001 (talk) 14:52, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
• Note that news coverage is ongoing, and will undoubtedly continue through the trial; it always does. Today's headline: "Palestinian awaits mental evaluation after stabbing, killing British woman, ..E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

  In other words, there is also a WP:BLPCRIME issue Seraphim System 18:09, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Sadly, since international coverage has been very similar, the sole difference between this and such recent AfD debates about stabbing attacks such as Munich knife attack, Reutlingen knife attack, 2016 Würzburg train attack, 2016 Ohio machete attack, 2015 Leytonstone tube station attack, 2016 Charleroi attack, 2017 Paris machete attack 2016 Russell Square stabbing is the insistence by wikipedia editors that attacks by Palestinians should receive special treatment.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:23, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. Shrike (talk) 17:39, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. You specialize in these silly articles, that can be summed up in any one of our numerous lists in 3-4 lines. I like many other editors could make several articles a month on similar things occurring to Palestinians - for every Israeli killed by this violence, several Palestinians are shot in very dubious circumstances, many in violation of Israel's obligations as a belligerent occupant of their land - but there is a general agreement among several of us that we should not imitate the POV pushing bad practice being used to promote unilaterally an Israel-the-victim-of-Palestinian terrorism mentality on Misplaced Pages. As long as drifting editors unfamiliar with this state of defiance of clear protocols continue to lazily vote instead of examining the merits, this crap will stay in, and consolidate wiki's repute for its WP:systemic bias in the I/P area.Nishidani (talk) 17:51, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. This article helps demonstrate a clear concern on what's happening abroad. Cyrus the Penner (talk) 18:33, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Meaning everything should have an article on Misplaced Pages. If you are familiar with policy (WP:AGF), you should be familiar with WP:NOTNEWS. Not one remark by those promoting this 'stuff' seriously addresses that issue, and the detailed policy guidelines regarding what is of long-term encyclopedic interest, and what is just a blip in a news cycle. Get out of the toxic I/P mental framework of battling to promote a POV, and apply the reasoning used here, and you would get a wiki article on this, this, this,this,this, this, etc.etc. The only reason this is covered is that it is the Middle east conflict and involves an Arab Palestinian. All the other incidents occur in the US, and everywhere else in the world every day, and do not rate as articles. That is what WP:Systemic bias is all about. It's quite disgraceful, but worse, a deliberate abuse of wiki space to push a POV.Nishidani (talk) 19:30, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• "This is covered" because of the massive internationl news coverage, the same reason why we have: Munich knife attack, Reutlingen knife attack, 2016 Würzburg train attack, 2016 Ohio machete attack, 2015 Leytonstone tube station attack, 2016 Charleroi attack, 2017 Paris machete attack 2016 Russell Square stabbing.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:35, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

You didn't answer the question. What you are saying is that an attack by a known Arab militant, or a personal suspected of being motivated by ISIS gets coverage (I'm fine with that), therefore any attack by any Arab on a non-Arab must get coverage, even if he's a suicidal psychiatric patient, though we do not give coverage to any of the daily knifings by Americans, Italians (3 every week recently), English 'ordinary people', etc. The conceptual distinction is clear, and wiki excludes the latter.Nishidani (talk) 20:19, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Those who write these articles on Arabs never write articles like

US airstrike on Al Jinnah mosque bombing, 45 civilians (Syria) (2017)

US Boz bombing of 33 Afghani civilians (2016)

US aistrike kills 33 Afghani civilians at Azizabad (2008)

10 Yemeni civilians killed in US airstrike 2017

From the perspective of those massacred (these events occur regularly once or twice a month, and have done so for over a decade) such attacks out of the blue are seen as we see the terrorist attacks we make articles on. In this Misplaced Pages is not global, but angloamericocentric, reflecting its own news and political interests. Anù the selectivity is quite deliberate, to promote a victimized by Arabs mentalityNishidani (talk) 20:47, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Please assume good faith. and refrain form personal attacks.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:53, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages guidelines are that we follow the sources. Sources exist to support this article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:53, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Because I do assume good faith, let me refer you once again to WP:NOT#NEWSREPORTS - most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion - if you are writing on human shields and looking up citations from 10 years ago as research for your topic, most likely that is appropriate. If your peer-reviewed or specialist secondary sources cite news articles for a particular issue, most likely it is appropriate for an encyclopedia. If you are posting an article that is entirely about a single news story, which is not covered by any significant scholarship outside news reports, most likely, that is not appropriate. Seraphim System 21:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
• The mere existence of sources does not necessitate the creation of an independent article. WP:Notability is not a guarantee that a topic will necessarily be handled as a separate, stand-alone page. Editors may use their discretion to merge or group two or more related topics into a single article.- MrX 21:15, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Intense coverage supports keeping the article; the British press has been all over this story. As do the precedents I list above. WP:RAPID also applies.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:41, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Delete Per Bolter et al. I bet this one will be going to Deletion review. In the future, for best results, wait until thing has blown over before XFDing it. Easier. L3X1 (distant write) 21:43, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete - An unfortunate bias exists here where any attack on a non-Arab by an Arab is considered notable but, for the most part, it doesn't work the other way around. Experienced editors need to have common sense about notability; independent news coverage immediately after the event does not make this notable. Stabbings happen (sadly) on the regular but they do not become articles. This is what policies are for people, come on.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 23:03, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete. I argued for its inclusion in List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2017, but not every such news story deserves its own article. El_C 23:18, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete and transwiki to WikiNews per Bolter21's reasoning, without prejudice against creation of a Misplaced Pages article should WP:LASTING effects occur. There's really nothing here beyond a summary of the events and the condemnations by various dignitaries. As it is, it's a bit awkward that this was created and nominated on the day of the event, as it's too soon to tell if it will fulfill LASTING, but considering the frequency of terrorist incidents that happen in the Middle East, I'm leaning towards no. Daß Wölf 00:07, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
• Keep and institute clear guideline to ban wikiwashing campaigns and that obvious acts of terrorism are always notable, and not covered by the NOT NEWs which is always brought out everytime there is a terrorist attack. There should be an article on the increasing trend to stage terrorist attacks as "routine" crimes by mentally unstable people which appears to be a common and deliberate tactic of clandestine warfare. It is absurd to claim that even if the Israeli government declares an act of terrorism, it should not be covered as an act of terrorism by wikipedia. "unfortunate bias exists here where any attack on a non-Arab by an Arab is considered notable " In fact, the opposite should be true, when in Israel, every attack by an arab on a non-Arab is instantly recognized as a terrorist attack, elsewhere in the world, every similar attack when there is no other obvious motive should be recognized as a possible terrorist attack, instead of being instantly deleted as "routine news". Many terrorist sprees such as Ali Muhammad Brown killing two gay men and a student and the D. C. sniper attacks started out as "routine" murders with absolutely no evidence suggesting a terrorist motive. Indeed in the case of Shooting of Robert Godwin, if this was an arab killing a Jews in Israel, there would be no doubt as to motive, yet in the United States, no source suggests any possibility of a political motive when it is always an obvious possibility. Bachcell (talk) 13:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Bachel just curious how do you conclude this is an "obvious" act of terrorism when even the very article your voting to keep and current news sources state it is a possible act of terror? This is one of the reasons why Misplaced Pages is not a news source: editors tend to assume things that are not verified yet.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 14:25, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

While we are pontificating on the lacunae of law, how did you arrive at the conclusion that motive is an element of a crime? You must be confusing motive with intent, and there is significant doubt, not only in the United States, but also in Israel, as to how this line of jurisprudence should develop. If you are talking of terrorism as a specific intent crime, it may not be what you were hoping for. While I support discussing current scholarship and legal developments about this on the relevant pages, we need to be sensitive to the BLPCRIME restriction in ongoing criminal cases. Seraphim System 19:45, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

El_C made a good point here regarding his confessed motivation. The problem is he contradicted himself in other reports (Ynet) by saying:'(I)"didn't mean it," and apologized to Bladon's family when asked to comment.' Given his mental condition, I would expect any number of self-contradictory statements to emerge like this, and therefore intent or motivation will be, as often in such cases, almost impossible to nail down, and you will have contradictory input and clashing assessments from psychaitrists depending on whose version they are called to testify about. Nishidani (talk) 19:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't have a crystal ball, but maybe the case will be notable, if there are significant legal developments. The fact pattern seems to be developing in an unusual way. I still think delete is best for now, without prejudice to recreating the article if it satisfies notability in the future. Seraphim System 20:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

• Delete pr WP:NOTNEWS, Huldra (talk) 22:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete -- I don't see any persistence behind this story; just a crazy person with a knife:

• "attacker had been arrested at the scene and is believed to suffer from mental illness" link.

K.e.coffman (talk) 04:11, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:51, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

As stated by multiple sources - e.g. - shin-bet has stated: “This is another incident of many in which a Palestinian suffering from mental health or personal issues has chosen to carry out an attack as a way out of his problems,”. Just because he had issues (he attacker after calling members of his family which refused contact due to the sexual molestation of family members) - doesn't meeting this wasn't terror (it has been labeled as terror by the relevant authorities) - as such an attack is a way to redeem one-self religiously and socially - and multiple terrorists (both in this wave and in previous waves) had a desire to die - just they decide to die killing out non-Palestinians and not by jumping off a roof or in front of train - this is a statistically significant phenomena, which isn't new - Pedahzur, Ami, Arie Perliger, and Leonard Weinberg. "Altruism and fatalism: The characteristics of Palestinian suicide terrorists." Deviant Behavior 24.4 (2003): 405-423 , and is exhbitied in other places as well - e.g. the Charlie Hebdo attackes ] and the Bataclan attackers had an assortment of personal issues as well - . The existence of a pre-existing motive to die does not preclude terror - to the contrary, this is a definite characteristic of many of the attackers in many such attacks (by Palestinians and non-Palestinians).Icewhiz (talk) 08:10, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Comment We should merge this article into Suicide attack per above comment Seraphim System 08:26, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Note - a moment of silence was held for for the victim at a Derby County game, which received wide coverage - for instance BBC - . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icewhiz (talk • contribs) 07:55, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

• Keep. Continued coverage (including the moment of silence mentioned above) prove the article meats WP:SUSTAINED and WP:LASTING. Rami R 08:02, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
• Keep: There are many WP:RS establishing notability. This was an international incident with international coverage. OtterAM (talk) 17:17, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
• Note: I am strongly against the idea of merging the articles. The other article, Jerusalem Light Rail, has a different and much broader focus, and doesn't have enough room in it for the information contained in this article. OtterAM (talk) 17:21, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. OtterAM (talk) 17:40, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

• Delete WP:NOTNEWS, Attacks like this by the IDF happen all the time against Palestinians but never get their own article so why should this? Mention it on List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2017. I agree 100% with Nishidani that attacks like these against Arabs never get the level of attention that attack perpetrated by Arabs get. Not saying this was intentional bad faith by the creator of the article but it's just how the world works. Perhaps, the issue lies more in that people aren't wiling to make an article where Arabs are the victim rather than the other way around. Consistency is all I ask for. Kamalthebest (talk) 00:02, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
• Note that today's headlines "Palestinian who stabbed British woman to death ruled fit for trial" , makes it clear that far from being the single news cycle event asserted by multiple editors above, coverage will continue as perp is tried and sentenced.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:55, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Good grief. Every crime leads to a scheduled trial, ergo, every crime must have a wiki article because the time gap between the event and the court trial makes it a 'durable' reality! Jeezus. Nishidani (talk) 08:09, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

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