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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Eurovision Song Contest 2017 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Eurovision High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Eurovision, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Eurovision-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EurovisionWikipedia:WikiProject EurovisionTemplate:WikiProject EurovisionEurovision High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ukraine Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Why does this article refer to the Republic of Macedonia as Macedonia? Shouldn't this country be referred to as the F.Y.R. Macedonia (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), as that is what the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) call it in the contest to avoid confusion with Greek Macedonia? A1: Previously the practice on Eurovision Song Contest articles was to universally refer to the Republic of Macedonia as the F.Y.R. Macedonia, as this was the name the EBU used. However, this practice was overridden by wider community consensus established at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Macedonia). The current guideline establishes Macedonia as the general term for the county throughout Misplaced Pages, even if the article is about an international organisation which uses a different naming practice e.g. the Eurovision Song Contest. In Eurovision Song Contest articles the inclusion of the flag for the Republic of Macedonia and the context of Macedonia being listed with other countries makes the risk of confusion low. However, the term F.Y.R. Macedonia, as it is used in the contest, may still be reported once in individual Eurovision Song Contest articles as necessary. See also: Macedonia naming dispute This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. A news item involving Eurovision Song Contest 2017 was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 14 May 2017. This page incorporates content from 2017 Eurovision Şarkı Yarışması, a page hosted on another Wikimedia Foundation project. Please consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors.

Pāli words in Gabbani's "Occidentali's Karma"?

Please discuss here.--Carnby (talk) 23:16, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

As explained here, the only Pali word in this song is Buddha बुद्ध, which also exists natively in Sanskrit, and as a loanword in Italian itself, English and many other languages. Moreover, it's used as a capitalized proper noun in the lyrics, within a full sentence in Italian. I propose removing Pali from the list of languages of this song, just like French is not listed either (démodé is French but also a loanword in Italian), and like Arabic is not listed for Should've Known Better of Denmark 2012 (it contains in sha Allah إن شاء الله). Ancient Greek, English and Sanskrit may remain listed because some words from these languages in the song are not loanwords or are used on their own. Heitordp (talk) 00:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2017

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In the section , under the heading "Voting and spokespersons" add Australia and put Lee Lin Chin as the voting spokesperson REFERENCES: https://twitter.com/SBSEurovision/status/858942282749403136, http://www.sbs.com.au/guide/article/2017/05/01/sbs-announce-australias-2017-eurovision-jury-members Aquasmash (talk) 07:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

 Done. Unfortunately the twitter source you provided cannot be used per our policies on the us of Twitter as sourcing material. However, another editor has updated the article using thee SBS source you provided. Thank you for sharing this information with us. Wes Wolf  11:59, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Missing content

There is content in the infobox that is not written in the main article body. Please can we remember that both the lead and infobox sections are summaries of the main article body. In 2016 we had Eurovision Song Contest 2016#Opening and interval acts section. Think it is time we caught up with ourselves. Wes Wolf  18:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Director

Hi, the name of the Director is wrong. Ola Meltzig is not the Director of the show, he is the head of production. Directors are:

Director: Ladislaus Kiraly (Same as in 2011/2012). Multi Camera Directors: Troels Lund (Same as in 2014) and Alexander Kolb.

I don´t know why they make those two distinctions, but the guy who is controling the cameras during performances is Troels Lund.

Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wargreymon (talk • contribs) 21:46, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, we cannot just take your word for it, as that constitutes original research, something which Misplaced Pages prohibits. Any content regarding living people must include a citation to verify such additions. That is a strict rule around Misplaced Pages. Wes Wolf  22:02, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Verifying this is easy, its written on the credits at the end of the show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wargreymon (talk • contribs) 12:31, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

EricLewan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

To editor EricLewan: I reverted your edit where you had replaced Pavlo Shylko with Zlata Ognevich. The former name looks to be supported by a citation whereas the latter does not. I don't know why you would make this sort of change but I want to reinforce a few points: first, use edit summaries to let other editors know why you're making a change. This is a collaborative project. Second, you need to provide proper citations for content you add. This is required by WP:V. Finally, I have warned you about partisanship in editing. Misplaced Pages requires you to be neutral and you might find it easier to refrain from editing about Ukraine as unrelated subjects won't bring into doubt your objectivity. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:09, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

To editor Chris troutman: It was officially announced that Zlata Ognevich will be the spokesperson of Ukraine in Eurovision 2017: https://vk.com/wall-139245847_1581. Pavlo Shylko is the official speaker of the contest, not the spokesperson of results nor the commentator. Please, check information in the official sources. Don't spread vandalism in Misplaced Pages. Thank you. 13:46, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@EricLewan: VK is self-published so it's not a reliable source and I can't tell if that post comes from Eurovision, officially. Further, the Google translation doesn't support what you're alleging. You can afford to wait for a responsible news source to publish this information to source your claim. Editing as you have is not acceptable. If you continue, we can take this to a drama board. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:19, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@Chris troutman: I have serious concerns regarding the editing activity of EricLewan and their behaviour towards other editors on Misplaced Pages. He recently accused myself of vandalism for removing the same content you are discussing in this thread. And not only that, they have made similar BLP edits without sourcing in the past. If this troublesome behaviour continues, then I would advise looking into WP:NEWBLPBAN, as that would be a preventative cure. Wes Wolf  07:28, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

UTC)

To editor Chris troutman: The post is from the official verified community of Eurovision in Ukraine. That doesn't matter anymore, though. I was the person who provided the most important information about this year's contest (logo, hosts, executive producer etc). But it doesn't matter since you ignore the rules of the 💕 just because you don't like my actions here. I hope you'll be the person who'll change the name of Ukrainian spokesperson to Zlata Ognevich after the Grand Final, because I don't want to volunteer anymore, for people who doesn't respect it. Have a nice day and don't forget to watch the voting in the Grand Final. 12:32, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

To all those caught up in this mess, Динамо-фан has reintroduced Zlata Ognevich to the spokesperson table using a reliable source. We can consider this matter closed. — Tuxipεdia 00:46, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Update

@Tuxipedia: looks like the source Динамо-фан used to reintroduced Zlata Ognevich is incorrect. That source was basing their information from the disputed VK social media website. It would appear that Pavlo Shylko, is the spokesperson, as listed in this reliable source. Wes Wolf  12:36, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Norway Lip Syncing

In the incidents section there is a lot of technical terms. I am guessing that Norway either lip synched or wanted to lip sync in the semi-finals and final. Which happened? Mobile mundo (talk) 20:45, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Old Kyiv debate

Why in this article city is called Kiev, if even the contest name is Kyiv 2017? https://eurovision.tv/participants — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.249.1.213 (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Please, read the box at the top of this page. /♥фĩłдωəß♥\ 23:22, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

If you took the time to read the FAQs at the top of this talk page, you would already know the answer - thus saving time posting this thread. But anyway, the reason is because of the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Ukrainian places). Misplaced Pages has strict rules on naming conventions, unfortunately, which are beyond our control as volunteer editors. Thank you to @Philaweb: for wording the reply better. Wes Wolf  23:24, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Multiple discussions on the scoreboard

There have been multiple threads being created lately all regarding the same issue on scoreboards, layout of them, and errors in the totals. So to keep things housed together, I'm merging all of the related topics together, so everyone can see what's going on, and maybe note an answer to a pondering question. Wes Wolf  15:02, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Results tables

Thanks for the efforts of those who have entered all the information here. One small point. Almost everyone looking at the final resuls will want to see them in place order. This should be the default order. No one really cares about the draw order after the show is over. It can be listed, of course, but it shouldn't be the default sort order. 86.191.166.205 (talk) 01:17, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

 Declined Unfortunately, this cannot be done. A prior consensus is to list all the tables in draw order. Each table does use the sorting function for each column, so that reader can decide upon themselves which information they wish to be placed in alphabetical or numerical order. Wes Wolf  01:22, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

That consensus is mistaken. It may be based on a sample of people who have a specialist or in-depth interest in this event. I can assure you that the majority of ordinary readers coming to this article will first and foremost wish to see the results in place order. 86.191.166.205 (talk) 02:11, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

The consensus is not mistake. It is a consensus reached by the Misplaced Pages community. Your view is assuming that everyone wishes to view the tables in a specific way - yet that is just on your point of view. There is a manual of style which we need to follow, and that is what has being done in this and every other article. The tables show the participation, and the order in which they performed first. Any other details can be viewed by ascending or descending order based on the personal perspective and needs of each individual person - if they so choose. You are welcome to argue this for as long as you wish, but the style used will never be changed unless the Misplaced Pages policies change and the members of WikiProject Eurovision discuss changes to layout styles. Wes Wolf  02:16, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

What Wes (as the owner and proprietor of all things Eurovision on wikipedia) means is that he and his acolytes who have locked the page and allow only themselves to edit have reached a consensus amongst themselves.85.14.123.179 (talk) 20:03, 15 May 2017 (UTC)MouseyWes

There is nothing stopping you from creating an account and joining WikiProject Eurovision to contribute to the discussions we have, but Misplaced Pages policy requires you do not make personal attacks against other editors. Calling members of the project "acolytes" is an instance of that policy's violation. — Tuxipεdia 21:49, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

To editor Tuxipedia: Don't feed the trolls, it only gives them satisfaction. Deny all recognition, as they soon get bored and move on. I take it as a compliment that these IPs think so highly about me and assume that I am some sort of "King of Misplaced Pages". They must have such a low self-esteem about themselves that they have to result to forms of attacks and cyber-bullying. But I am not afraid of those kind of people. These IPs fail to understand the concept of Misplaced Pages, what it entails, how it operates. And when things do not go their way, they cry victim, attack others to make them feel better. Nobody WP:OWN's anything. The fact the article is protected (not locked) they think I have the power to have protected it; they do not understand it is an admin who protects pages. So that IP is basically calling admins "acolytes"; not the wisest of things to do if they wish to continue editing. Admins wouldn't think twice about blocking their sorry arses. If these people took the time to read the policies set by the Misplaced Pages community, then they would understand why the likes of me and other experienced editors talk logic, while they look confused. Wes Wolf  22:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Remove the 50/50 column in the split voting results?

I feel as though it is unnecessary to have the 50/50 column between the televoting/jury columns in the split results drop-down table. The 50/50 result is already displayed in the other tables and it just looks kinda messy. Should it be removed? --ThatJosh (talk) 10:38, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

@ThatJosh:, this is something you should ideally be posting at WT:ESC, as its impact is far greater than just one article. Such proposal will require a consensus from the WikiProject Eurovision team, so that it can be reviewed, discussed, and rolled out across the spectrum if agreed upon. Although as this is the second year that both sets of points have been issued, then we should ideally be turning to the 2016 article, as everyone had discussed proposals on how to handle the what was then a new voting system. That article should be used as the basis and format/layout "guide". Wes Wolf  13:56, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

@Wesley Wolf: The 2016 article didn't include a 50/50 column, I assume that for consistency it should be removed from the 2017 one? It's such an eyesore lmao --ThatJosh (talk) 14:05, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

To editor ThatJosh: Post-2016 they were used. Bear with me a few minutes though, as I've not long since woken up. I was still awake 8 hours after the contest had ended (08:00 UK time), working my butt off on here and chasing around Misplaced Pages-space after a vandal. I'm not use to waking up at 14:30 UK time . I'm sifting through the talk archives to just clarify the discussion outcome and to refresh my memory as it was 12 months ago when everyone had that "yikes what do we do now the voting has changed" panic. Wes Wolf  14:09, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• @ThatJosh: Finally a cuppa coffee to start the day off - well afternoon I suppose really. The new scoreboard format was agreed prior to them being published on the article in 2016; and I can see that method has continued in 2017 (which is good to see). The split results had the 50/50 section removed from 2016, so with that in mind I would expect the same would happen in 2017. However, do we really need the collapsible split voting results in either of the 2016 or 2017 articles? The new split-result scoreboard does the exact same job, as what the collapsible table is doing. Does anyone else see them as a duplication of information? Wes Wolf  14:21, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

@Wesley Wolf: Personally I feel that the collapsible table is a better way to display the divide in points from juries/televoting as having tons of columns with varying amounts of points in the main table is quite a lot of text to look at, and kinda messy imo. Just having the extra collapsible table with the jury & televote separated, for me, is the best way to do it. --ThatJosh (talk) 21:53, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Results: Sweden and Georgia

There's something amiss with the Swedish scores for SF1. The total recorded for the televote is 103. If you add up the scores as listed they come to 104. I've no idea which is right or where the error is. It also is recorded that the UK jury gave 1 point to Sweden and 1 point to Georgia. Clearly this isn't right, so maybe the 1 point for Sweden is an error, which does reduce their total to 103. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.14.123.179 (talk) 17:42, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Corrected Sweden's Semi-Final 1 points verified with ESC site that Sweden got 1 point from UK Televote and 2 points from UK Jury. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 05:56, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Results: United Kingdom

In the table, it says that Portugal gave its 10 televote points to United Kingdom, but they actually gave it to Belgium. Here's the source Albertdaniel222 (talk) 05:33, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Verified and corrected Portugal's televote thanks @Albertdaniel222:. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 06:02, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Moving the Split votes and rankings

Why don't we move the table ranking the split voting currently located at the Scoreboard section to the section of Participating Countries? That table also lists the combined votes, which are already in the Participating Countries section, so why not consolidate it and combine them? Albertdaniel222 (talk) 10:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

@Albertdaniel222: Such change cannot be done just from this discussion alone. Layout and format changes to these annual articles need to be discussed at WT:ESC, as they bear a larger impact across all of the other annual contest pages that WikiProject Eurovision has under their scope. The current layout style (which you are commenting about) is based off this consensus debate, which resulted in these layout guides. However, I had only mentioned something similar yesterday, and currently working on opening a new RfC on the project talk page, so that members can review and discuss current layout styles, and put forward and proposals or changes. That is the right way to go about this sort of change. Wes Wolf  11:48, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Results: Portugal

Something is wrong with the Portuguese scores as listed for SF1. The total is recorded as 194, yet if you add up the scores listed, they total 197. So either the scores are wrongly attributed or the total is wrongly recorded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.14.123.179 (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

It is merely a calculation error - we are human after all. The ESC site shows the total as being 197. Wes Wolf  12:44, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Results: Netherlands

The scoreboard contains an error. The Netherlands did not receive 8 points in the televote from Latvia. Instead, it was Moldova that got 8 points from Latvia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tristan42757 (talk • contribs) 14:44, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

@Tristan42757: Reviewed the source for the Latvian televote and updated the final results table to show Netherland 0 points and Moldova 8 points from Latvian televote. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 15:49, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Results: Slovenia

According to the grid, Slovenia's televote gave 8 points to Portugal and 8 points to Moldova. I doubt that very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.14.123.179 (talk) 18:56, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

@85.14.123.179 You are correct but it was jury votes that was out of wack not the televote. (White rows are Jury and Blue rows are Televote) Corrected the Semi-Final table to indicate Moldova 0 points from Slovenia's Jury and 8 points from Armenia's Jury. The televote from Slovenia was already correct with 8 points to Belgium. If anyone else spots anything wrong on the scoreboards please indicate if it is Semi-Final 1, Semi-Final 2 or Final so it is easier and quicker to get corrected. Thank you to everyone spotting any errors! ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 05:01, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Final Results table

Please can the scores be listed in the order they were announced (ie starting with Sweden and ending with Ukraine) rather than alphabetically by country. This makes more sense.85.14.123.179 (talk) 20:03, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Alphabetical order was the preferred choice of the community as far as I can remember. However, if it is any consolations, there are plans to open a new request for comment and a review of article formatting for these contest pages, via the WikiProject Eurovision in the next coming days. I'll take note of your suggestion and put it forward to the project members for careful consideration. Wes Wolf  23:01, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

You mean your preferred choice as proprietor and owner of all things Eurovision on wikipedia. I'll wait for the page to be unlocked and then re-order it into voting order as that seems to be the preferred choice of wikipedia viewers and visitors, not those of the elite who take control of projects for their own edification. Interesting that the Semi Finals aren't listed in alphabetical order. So not a preferred choice at all in fact.

Song Title

Please change "Loving For The Both of Us" to "Loving For The Two of Us". It is more correctly translated that way, since 'Dois' means 'Two' and the portuguese word for 'Both' is 'Ambos', which is clearly not in the original title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Portugueseenglishspeaker (talk • contribs) 08:46, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

If you want to include the word two, I would say "Loving for the Two" would be better, but "Loving for Both of Us" is certainly the best option and it was endorsed by the authors. - Sarilho1 (talk) 10:33, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2017

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I want to add the ebu's comment on jamala's stage invasion Andrew Mckenna1 (talk) 10:20, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

@Andrew Mckenna1: provide a source, and somebody would gladly insert the content on your behalf. Wes Wolf  13:54, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Winless Run

The article states that Portgual's win is "the longest winless run by a country in Eurovision history since Finland won the contest in 2006". But it is actually the longest winless run ever: 53 years over 45. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.122.133 (talk) 12:43, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

We cannot exactly use the term "ever", as it comes under words to watch, with such proclamations advised to be avoided. Improving the wording to keep a neutral tone would be much preferable. Perhaps along the lines of "Portugal's win is the longest winless run by a participating country since Finland, and the longest in the contest's 62-year history" covers all the bases. Wes Wolf  16:51, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Returning Participant

Portugal's victory makes them the third returning participant to win a Eurovision, as well as the second in a row(the first was Israel's "Diva" in 1999, and Ukraine's "1944" in 2016). Israel was relegated from the 1996 contest as they did not pass the pre-qualifying round by the European Broadcasting Union. They did not return to the contest until 1998, where they won the contest represented by Dana International's "Diva." Ukraine's state broadcaster, NTU, announced that they would withdraw from the 2015 contest due to financial difficulties and the ongoing Ukraine conflict, but pledged (and was later announced) that they would return to the contest in 2016. That year they were represented by the song "1944" by Jamala, where they won with 491 points under a new voting system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.225.228 (talk) 00:14, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

OK a line has to be drawn on excessive statistical information. We need to avoid WP:NOTSTATSBOOK and WP:TRIVIA. Something of this nature doesn't really make a huge significance or impact on what the article is really about. Let's stick to the main facts, and leave Wikia to the trivial extras. Wes Wolf  00:19, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

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