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Sequel

Under the Sequel heading, it is written that the movie Justice League is a direct sequel to this movie. This cannot be right since Justice League is logically a standalone film. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice sets up the plot and continuity of the movie. While Marvel Studios' Iron Man films, Incredible Hulk, Thor and Captain America: The First Avenger set up their tentpole superhero team movie The Avengers, the latter is logically a standalone film and not a sequel to those movies. - Ash wki (talk) 09:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Ash wki, I undid your edit claiming that this film is a sequel to Man of Steel. The general consensus I've observed in editing on this page is that the term "follow-up" is preferred, meaning it shares some of the same elements and characters expanding on both, but it is not generally considered a direct sequel. At the very least, a couple solid sources calling it a sequel are needed. The one you provided uses some passing comments in an interview that state, "in a way", which is in no way a definitive statement. We would need a secondary perspective from critics/analysts that are calling it a sequel, and it should be a well-established fact that is generally accepted by most. I'm not currently seeing that in the sources. --GoneIn60 (talk) 15:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• GoneIn60, the film does not only carry same elements and characters but also directly continues and builds up on the narrative of Man of Steel and the plot focuses on Superman, the main character in the previous film as well as having his enemies as the main villains (Lex Luthor and Doomsday). "Follow-up" should be preferred only if the film is not a direct sequel like in the case of 300: Rise of an Empire. The TV Tropes article of the film also calls it a sequel: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/BatmanVSupermanDawnOfJustice. What does "generally considered" mean? No sources from the cast and crew of the film or the studio has called the solo standalone Superman film being developed as Man of Steel 2 either. It is only the article authors and journalist who are calling it so. - Ash wki (talk) 15:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
• If Batman v Superman is not considered a sequel to Man of Steel, then why is Justice League called a direct sequel to Batman v Superman in this article? There seems to be a flaw in the integrity of the authors of this article. - Ash wki (talk) 15:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

First, understand that the primary reason I reverted you had to do with the source you provided. Obviously the article will have other issues that need fixing, but I'm focusing on one issue at a time. The editing history here has shown that the consensus prefers "follow-up"; that is not my preference necessarily, just an observation. If you provide a couple solid sources supporting sequel, then the requested change will have a better chance at sticking. Feel free to list them here if you'd like some additional opinions. --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

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Recent edits to the lead

@TommyVictor:, scroll up to the Critical response section on this page to see recent comments regarding this area in the lead. You can also check comments at Talk:Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice/Archive 4 and Talk:Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice/Archive 5 for past consensus on the issue. After multiple discussions, the current phrasing in the lead has been hashed out and resembles what various editors have agreed on. If you'd like to start a new discussion, then here's the place to do it. Explain the reasoning behind your proposal. --GoneIn60 (talk) 21:44, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Plot Summary

Currently, it's written that, "A memorial is held for Superman in Metropolis. Clark is also declared dead, with various friends and family members including Bruce Wayne and Diana Prince attending for him in Smallville." Is it possible to insert "and Arlington National Cemetery" after Metropolis? Bignole and I had a previous discussion on this and suggested I should put it on the talk page. Lo and behold. After some painful lesson, I finally learned how to do it. I just want global readers understand the significance of Superman to the United States.Supermann (talk) 18:52, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that the significance will be conveyed to global readers. Even if they read about the cemetery, the fact remains that it's fictional. He isn't a real person buried there, so the "real" significance is non-existence to the fact that the writers chose to do that.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:36, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Looks like you are the only one disagreeing. I have added the cemetery info to the soundtrack page at Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (soundtrack)#Music not included in the soundtrack. I think it is at least more relevant there.Supermann (talk) 15:40, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

@Bignole: Your argument doesn't hold water at all. The whole movie is a fiction! Stop engaging edit war! Use WP:DRN! Supermann (talk) 16:34, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Where does it say, in the movie, that it's Arlington National Cemetery? A direct quote would be helpful. DonQuixote (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

@DonQuixote: Not only do I recognize it because I have served, but here: http://screenrant.com/batman-v-superman-ending-explained-darkseid/. You tell @Bignole: to stop bossing around! Many thanks! Supermann (talk) 16:52, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

First, you recognizing it is original research and can't be accepted. Secondly, the plot summary is only citing the film itself, so you can't cite a secondary source in the cite summary. You can, however, cite it in a footnote or in a more appropriate section, such as Filming. DonQuixote (talk) 17:07, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The film never identifies the cemetery. The fact that they use that cemetery for filming is irrelevant to the PLOT, not to the filming section though.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:11, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

This is not about original research anymore once it has a good citation. I said that only to tell you I am interested to add it in. What's wrong to have interest in the first place? In plot summary, it shouldn't need to be cited at all in the first place. I can't find further citation regarding it's physically filmed at Arlington. What if they used green/blue screen? IMDb does say it was filmed in DC, but IMDb is not reliable source per policy. But as the citation explains, it's Arlington. You tell me how this is an irrelevant detail as @Bignole: had put it?! Supermann (talk) 17:17, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Ok! Seems like I am allowed to mention it in Filming section. I'll put it there. Thanks! Supermann (talk) 17:20, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Except, I don't recall the film actually showing that it was "Arlington Cememtary". The fact that you know it is, or that a source names it that doesn't meant that the film did. We went through this with Doomsday. Lex says "he's your doomsday", he doesn't say "His name is Doomsday" or refer to him with "Doomsday" being a pronoun. Thus, we don't actually refer to the creature as Doomsday. The same is true for the cemetery. It's irrelevant at the end, because it DOES NOT enhance the readers' understanding of the fact that he died and was buried by two sets of people.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:20, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

You can mention it there if you have a source that says it was filmed there. I checked your source, and it doesn't talk about filming, just mentions that he is buried there.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:21, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Seriously, you need to start with a direct quote like "filmed at Arlington Cemetery" before you can cite it for claiming that it was "filmed at Arlington Cemetery". DonQuixote (talk) 17:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

You guys just can't compromise, huh? You are downgrading the country's treatment to Superman! The naturalized immigrant died for the country and you wouldn't even acknowledge it? US Army uniformed soldiers joined the funeral. The tributes were paid by three sets of people, not two sets. 21 guns were performed. General Swanwick and Major Carrie Ferris were there. They were not at the memorial at Smallville or Metropolis. It's our job to help summarize it to educate the readers. Supermann (talk) 17:35, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Dude, Superman is a fictional character. He's not real. This movie is a work of fiction.

Also, this article is part of an encyclopaedia. Encyclopaedias have rules such as citing reliable secondary sources and properly summarizing primary sources. Encyclopaedias treat movies as works of fiction. DonQuixote (talk) 17:49, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

So @DonQuixote:, are you agreeing with Bignole in saying that the Arlington funeral in the plot summary is irrelevant or it has no reliable source? I am confused!!!! I totally don't get it. You guys are shifting your arguments around! Supermann (talk) 17:55, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Arlington Cemetery isn't mentioned in the movie, so you can't mention it in the plot summary. As for reliable sources, the source you provided doesn't mention that it was "filmed at Arlington cemetery" so you can't use it to claim that it was "filmed at Arlington cemetery". It's that simple. DonQuixote (talk) 18:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I have taken you two to WP:DRN. Arlington is shown in the movie. No one should deny it. You two are not even real Americans. Supermann (talk) 18:13, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Where else could this funeral be held if it ain't Arlington? I am sure it was just an oversight by Zack Snyder. http://imgur.com/nCvStKo Supermann (talk) 18:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Hate to break it to you, but Superman isn't a real American either--he's a fictional character. Also, drawing any conclusion from that image is original research. It falls under specialist knowledge. DonQuixote (talk) 18:36, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Superman represents the best American one could be! Apparently Zack Snyder thought you guys would be smart and patriotic enough to recognize the place. He is dead wrong! Supermann (talk) 18:51, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I honestly cannot tell if you're trolling or if you actually believe what you're saying. It makes it difficult to have an adult, rational conversation about why things can be placed in certain locations and what restrictions we have. Especially when you fall back on personal attacks and just odd statements.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:54, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I am appealing to your patriotism, not trolling. Why don't you cite me a WP policy in which it says plot summary cannot include summarization, backed by secondary sources, if the film did not identify it easily enough for you? thanks. Supermann (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:PRIMARY: A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. (emphasis mine}} DonQuixote (talk) 19:05, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

That policy did not dictate how plot summary for a film must be written. It did not say one could only use primary source and not a single shred of secondary source. You are misusing the policy and I have problems with that. You tell me how including this Arlington detail in plot summary would actually hurt readers globally? Not "irrelevant" again. Supermann (talk) 19:18, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

First, appealing to our patriotism? It isn't unpatriotic to state that because a film does not explicitly identify a location that is military in nature should not be included in the plot. As for the details, see WP:FILMPLOT, which says that we should avoid technical details and minutia, such as the specific name of a cemetery (which the film itself didn't even bother to identify).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

MOS:PLOT: Plot summaries cannot engage in interpretation and should only present an obvious recap of the work...Even small details that might be clear on a word-by-word or frame-by-frame analysis – steps well beyond the normal act of reading or watching a work – should be considered original research and excluded from such articles. DonQuixote (talk) 19:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:FILMPLOT did not specifically say the name of a cemetery is minutia. For it to be minutia, it has to be often of negligible importance. How is Arlington of a negligible importance? The sequence totals more than 1 minute of the whole film. This is not to mention that Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Film, itself not being a policy, allows occasional exception known as Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules at the top. As for MOS:PLOT, again, Arlington now has a reliable secondary source from Ben Kendrick, managing editor of Screenrant.com, who commits his real identity. None of your arguments holds water. Supermann (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

You are misdirecting real life significance to fictional significance, not to mention the most important fact: THE FILM DOES NOT SAY WHERE HE IS BURIED. :) A film reviewer identifying a location does not negate what the film does or does not do. It's a very simple fact of business.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 20:04, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Seriously, what part of Plot summaries cannot engage in interpretation and should only present an obvious recap of the work do you not understand? The key phrase being "obvious recap". DonQuixote (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

This is NOT ABOUT WHERE HE IS BURIED. This is about whether a funeral was held at Arlington. By significance, the memorial at Metropolis is only 45 seconds, shorter than the one in Arlington. Again, the style manual did not prohibit using secondary sources to describe the plot. This is not about me not understanding "obvious recap". This is about you two not allowing IAR for just four little words! For "obvious recap", the sentence says "should" and "secondary sources must be provided to avoid original research." What part of IAR did you two not understand? Supermann (talk) 20:33, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Clearly IAR is the rule to be ignored here as the only person waving it around has a clear unencyclopaedic bias (e.g. "patriotism"). Other than that, following every other rule involving primary sources is acceptable. DonQuixote (talk) 20:54, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Then ignoring IAR will clearly be a violation of Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Film. Let's see what DRN says.Supermann (talk) 20:58, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

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