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Revision as of 12:31, 12 August 2017 editImTheIP (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,977 edits →Today part of "State of Palestine"← Previous edit Revision as of 14:23, 12 August 2017 edit undoBolter21 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,123 edits →Today part of "State of Palestine"Next edit →
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:::{{re|Zero0000}}, doesn't matter what conventions you bring, it won't change the fact that Palestine still doesn't exist. My point here is not to spread some stupid opinion that "there is no Palestine" or some crap like that, which Israelis love to do on Misplaced Pages, I simply try not to mislead readers. There are people who think, thanks to Misplaced Pages's democratic nature, that there is, actually, a state called "Palestine" and it exists, but it doesn't. Maybe it exists under international law, and maybe not, but one thing is sure, it doesn't exist beyond the papers. This is the sort of stuff that fucks people minds. We had so many arguments on this topic in the last three years and it seems there is always a need by pro-Palestinian users to try and blend the difference between Palestine and other states, like the demand that in the SoP article, the lead section will say that "Palestine is a state in the Middle East". It is absurd how such a misleading line, in one of the most visited articles, was approved by a democratic pole and made probably hundreds of thousands of people believe that there is actually a state in the Middle East called Palestine. If I am honest enough to recognize the fact Israel is occupying the West Bank and that Palestine has 136 countries recognizing it, you should also be honest and recognize the fact Palestine doesn't yet exist, '''and thus can't be listed as a decendent of Mandatory Palestine or any other state'''.--] <small>''(])''</small> 08:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC) :::{{re|Zero0000}}, doesn't matter what conventions you bring, it won't change the fact that Palestine still doesn't exist. My point here is not to spread some stupid opinion that "there is no Palestine" or some crap like that, which Israelis love to do on Misplaced Pages, I simply try not to mislead readers. There are people who think, thanks to Misplaced Pages's democratic nature, that there is, actually, a state called "Palestine" and it exists, but it doesn't. Maybe it exists under international law, and maybe not, but one thing is sure, it doesn't exist beyond the papers. This is the sort of stuff that fucks people minds. We had so many arguments on this topic in the last three years and it seems there is always a need by pro-Palestinian users to try and blend the difference between Palestine and other states, like the demand that in the SoP article, the lead section will say that "Palestine is a state in the Middle East". It is absurd how such a misleading line, in one of the most visited articles, was approved by a democratic pole and made probably hundreds of thousands of people believe that there is actually a state in the Middle East called Palestine. If I am honest enough to recognize the fact Israel is occupying the West Bank and that Palestine has 136 countries recognizing it, you should also be honest and recognize the fact Palestine doesn't yet exist, '''and thus can't be listed as a decendent of Mandatory Palestine or any other state'''.--] <small>''(])''</small> 08:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
::::@Bolter, can the dispute be settled using footnotes? The one on Palestine could say "The existence of the State of Palestine is disputed and therefore also if any territory is part of it. For a deeper discussion, see the ] article."? ] (]) 12:31, 12 August 2017 (UTC) ::::@Bolter, can the dispute be settled using footnotes? The one on Palestine could say "The existence of the State of Palestine is disputed and therefore also if any territory is part of it. For a deeper discussion, see the ] article."? ] (]) 12:31, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::The existence of Palestine is not disputed. Maybe the existence of God or anti-matter is disputed, but only a dishonest person, an ignorant, or an innocent reader of Wikipeida would think that, yes, there is an actual state called Palestine, that exists at this very moment. You may support Palestine's existence, you may claim it '''should''' exist under international law, you can claim it does exist '''on paper''' you may present the fact 136 countries recognize it, but it will never change the fact, the State of Palestine was never established. It has no government, no sovereignty, no residents and still, insufficient recognition. Step out of it already, you don't have to shove the State of Palestine anywhere just becuase you support it's existence. Users here try to find every way to blend the difference between Palestine and the rest of the countries in the world. It is not a question of political affiliation or opinions, it is simply a question of the facts on the ground.--] <small>''(])''</small> 14:23, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:23, 12 August 2017

? view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Why doesn't this article include Transjordan in its scope? Why isn't Transjordan shown as part of Mandatory Palestine on the map? A1: This article is about the British administrative unit in Palestine. There is a separate article covering the entity of the Emirate of Transjordan, and the Mandate legal instrument which acted as the constitution for both of these administrations. Q2: What was the status of Transjordan in the Mandate for Palestine? A2: This question is answered in the article dealing with the legal aspects of the British Mandate for Palestine.
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Palestine Mandate Ensign

I've just been reacquainted with this flag and wondered if it should be used in the article.

GregKaye 14:30, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

No, because it was not the flag of Palestine. Zero 16:09, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
If memory serves me, I believe it has been established to have been a naval flag. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:00, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Naval, yes (in the sense of shipping, not in the sense of military navy). There are sources in the section "Flag should be the Union Jack" of Archive 7. Zero 21:40, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Today part of "State of Palestine"

@Oncenawhile:. Can't really have a discussion since I am going back to the millitary tommorow, but here's the deal: The "State of Palestine", is not yet a state. It doesn't exist, physically. If you use the article, you can navigate through the entities and territories that preceeded and succeded Mandatory Palestine. It was succeded by the Jordan's West Bank, which was succeded by the Israeli occupation. The Israeli occupation never ended, despite the fact the PLO declared a state in 1988. The situation remaines pretty much the same, with the exception that the Palestinians have some degrees of self-rule in Area A and B. This has nothing to do with the "State of Palestine", which is the name the PLO uses for its foreign affairs. The State of Palestine was never established, nor it ever got sufficient recognition and even if it did got recognized by 192 states of the UN, still Mandatory Palestine isn't today part of the "State of Palestine" since the "State of Palestine" doesn't exist. Therefore I used the political term of the UN for the territories outside of the Green Line, which is the "Palestinian Territories", a term which is still the main term used by the UN to refer to the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Regardless of what you have to say, "State of Palestine" is completely unacceptable.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:55, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your description of the situation. But the State of Palestine claims the same area as the territories, and is relevant to readers. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:27, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
The "State of Palestine" is the PLO. Unlike something like Somaliland, which is a state with no recognition, Palestine is not a state, but with recognition. The "today part of" line refers to what does the territory in question consists of today. For example, we want to know which states today have territories once ruled by the Roman Empire. The claims of a non-existant state are not relevent here. It makes more sense to write that Mandatory Palestine is today part of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip becuase these two entities are real, but it is better to simply put aside the mess of the conflict and simply refer to it as the Palestinian Territories, with the self-rule of the Palestinians and the Israeli occupation within.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:41, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
136 countries have reconized the SoP; that makes it highly relevant. As far as those 136 countries are concerned, it is a legitimate descendent of Mandatory Palestine. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:24, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
Legtimiate (in the eyes of these countries) but not an actual decendent of Mandatory Palestine. I drove through the West Bank on my home today, can we both agree that my bus didn't go through an existing state? The soil on which the road was paved, that was owned by the British, doesn't belong to any existing state, that can be mentioned in the infobox? East Timor didn't exist between 7 December 1975 and 31 October 1999, despite the fact every state that existed apart from Australia still recognized East Timor's independence. Palestine doesn't exist, as it is under the occupation of Israel, and, technically, Hamas' government. The difference between Palestine and occupied East Timor, is that Palestine isn't a state and was never a state.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:07, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
In reality, there is no sovereign State of Palestine. The declaration that was made by some 136 countries who voiced their opinion about the so-called "State," was only to make a "political statement," without any legal binding or basis. It does not affect the reality on the ground. Everything is done here through the approbation of the State of Israel, while the Palestinian Authority works in conjunction with the State of Israel.Davidbena (talk) 13:44, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Doesn't Hamas control of Gaza mean that the State of Palestine full-fills the four criteria of the Montevideo convention? Population? Check. Territory? Check (Gaza strip). Government? Check (Hamas). Capacity to enter into relations with the other states? Check (because Hamas has negotiated with the Government of Israel). I have seen several legal scholars argue this position based on the Montevideo convention. In fact, Misplaced Pages should have an article that discusses the various points of views on the existence of the SoP. ImTheIP (talk) 20:42, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
@Bolter21: @Davidbena: You are applying a definition of "state" which requires control over its territory. There are indeed a few international lawyers who have argued it that way but they are not a majority. Most would say that a state whose territory has been occupied by another state has not ceased to be a state, but is a state under occupation. Without the concept of a state under occupation, a large part of international law (Hague Conventions, Geneva Conventions, parts of UN Charter, etc etc) doesn't make any sense. Since ImTheIP mentioned the Montevideo Convention, we should note that states must have a defined territory but don't need to be able to exercise their rights there. (Both are stated explicitly, see Articles 1 and 4.) Davidbena, sorry but your opinion on why 136 countries recognised Palestine is not admissible into the article; you know that. I have an opinion too: Palestine exists, but it is a baby that Israel will never allow to live. Zero 21:38, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
@ImTheIP: according to your logic, the Gaza Strip under Hamas is a state, but not the "State of Palestine", which is a psuedo-state represented by the Palestinian Liberation Organization.
@Zero0000:, doesn't matter what conventions you bring, it won't change the fact that Palestine still doesn't exist. My point here is not to spread some stupid opinion that "there is no Palestine" or some crap like that, which Israelis love to do on Misplaced Pages, I simply try not to mislead readers. There are people who think, thanks to Misplaced Pages's democratic nature, that there is, actually, a state called "Palestine" and it exists, but it doesn't. Maybe it exists under international law, and maybe not, but one thing is sure, it doesn't exist beyond the papers. This is the sort of stuff that fucks people minds. We had so many arguments on this topic in the last three years and it seems there is always a need by pro-Palestinian users to try and blend the difference between Palestine and other states, like the demand that in the SoP article, the lead section will say that "Palestine is a state in the Middle East". It is absurd how such a misleading line, in one of the most visited articles, was approved by a democratic pole and made probably hundreds of thousands of people believe that there is actually a state in the Middle East called Palestine. If I am honest enough to recognize the fact Israel is occupying the West Bank and that Palestine has 136 countries recognizing it, you should also be honest and recognize the fact Palestine doesn't yet exist, and thus can't be listed as a decendent of Mandatory Palestine or any other state.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 08:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
@Bolter, can the dispute be settled using footnotes? The one on Palestine could say "The existence of the State of Palestine is disputed and therefore also if any territory is part of it. For a deeper discussion, see the Legal status of the State of Palestine article."? ImTheIP (talk) 12:31, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
The existence of Palestine is not disputed. Maybe the existence of God or anti-matter is disputed, but only a dishonest person, an ignorant, or an innocent reader of Wikipeida would think that, yes, there is an actual state called Palestine, that exists at this very moment. You may support Palestine's existence, you may claim it should exist under international law, you can claim it does exist on paper you may present the fact 136 countries recognize it, but it will never change the fact, the State of Palestine was never established. It has no government, no sovereignty, no residents and still, insufficient recognition. Step out of it already, you don't have to shove the State of Palestine anywhere just becuase you support it's existence. Users here try to find every way to blend the difference between Palestine and the rest of the countries in the world. It is not a question of political affiliation or opinions, it is simply a question of the facts on the ground.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:23, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
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