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Archived talk: 2004 2005 2006

Administrative divisions of Moscow

/English/ Why have you unchanged my changes? In comments Administrative divisions of Moscow you wrote please do not mix up the terms of administrative and municipal divisions. The article is about administrative units, not about municipalities. I didn't do anything with municipalities (Kryukovo, Panfilovsky or/and etc.). I'd did 2 corretion:

1) I'd corrected City of Zelenograd to Zelenograd Administrative Okrug. ZelAO (ЗелАО) is one of ten Administrative Okrugs of Moscow (see ru:Административное деление Москвы). Zelenograd (city) is the majority of ZelAO, but it's not whole of them.

2) I'd inserted the widly used acronyms of Administrative Okrugs and their lat. transliterations. Is this information uninteresting or mistaken?

/Русский/ Почему вы отменили мои исправления? В комментариях вы написали ---. Я ничего не делал с муниципалитетами (Крюково, Панфиловский и/или другие). Я сделал две коррекции:

1. Исправил город ru:Зеленоград на ru:Зеленоградский административный округ. ЗелАО - это один из десяти округов Москвы (см. ru:Административное деление Москвы). Зеленоград же - большая часть ЗелАО, но не вся.

2. Ввёл широко употребляемые сокращения названий округов и их латинские транслитерации. Моя информация неинтересна или ошибочна?

--Alex Spade 19:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC) See also (см. также) ru:Участник:Alex Spade

Hi, Alex! Thanks for you interest and inquiry. The reason for my change was that the article as it exists is about administrative and territorial divisions of the city (i.e., as described in the Law of the City of Moscow On territorial division of the city of Moscow ("О территориальном делении города Москвы")), not about its municipal division (i.e., as described in the Law of the city of Moscow On creation of internal municipalities of the city of Moscow ("Об образовании внутригородских муниципальных образований города Москвы")). The difference in general is between Moscow's "внутригородские муниципальные образования" (such as "ZelAO") and "районы города" (such as "City of Zelenograd", which, by the way, is not the same as Zelenograd proper).

Anyway, if the subject overall interests you, you might want to take a look at Talk:Administrative divisions of Vologda Oblast, where another user was challenging the accuracy of that article for the similar reason. That discussion was in Russian, but I see you have no problem with that.

Rest assured, I did not revert your edit because it was "uninteresting", but it was indeed "mistaken". I apologize that my edit summary was not clear enough to explain my motives. The information you added belongs to (currently non-existing) Municipal divisions of Moscow, not to this article. You are more than welcome to start the article about Moscow's municipalities; that set will need to be created eventually anyway, and Moscow is as good place to start as any.

Please let me know if you have any further questions. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Log

Why do you keep reverting the addition of human feaces to the disambig page on log? I think I should be there. I know wikipedia is not a dictonary, but the edit applies to a wikipedia article. It is not just a defination, but a redirect to a page that may be hard to find by someone who does not know the correct article name. Think outside the box 12:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but just because it contains a link it does not automatically become more than a dictionary definition, especially considering the fact that it specifically defines the term as "slang". I would recommend that you study the disambiguation page guidelines for more information on why this particular entry is unfit. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hedgehog

May I just comment here to tell you I am seriously fangirling your revert to Hedgehog? It gave me a good giggle. :) Mhari 03:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

All in a day's work :)—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

hiding the violations

• if you like, your vote? Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Tobias Conradi/admin right abuse Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Schlüsselburg

Thank You for Your attention. However, I still wonder, why then Misplaced Pages uses the (right) name Peterhof and not "Petergof"..?

Please, read from here: "They may be names borrowed from Russian through another language, e.g., Petergof→Peterhof."

So, same with the German name Shlisselburg→Schlüsselburg.

Sincerely,

PKo, 25. September 2006, 17.06 (UTC)

"Peterhof" is the form that's more common in English than "Petergof". When that's the case, the non-transliterated version takes precedence over the transliteration. English usage is what matters the most in the English Misplaced Pages. In the German Misplaced Pages, it would, of course, be the predominant German spelling that matters and is used as a title.

As for the WP:RUS statement you quoted, the key part of it is "may be". Again, the usage in English is the main factor of whether or not to use forms borrowed from other languages.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

You don´t understand: in Russian language there is no 'sch' and 'ü', so in Russian language they must write š (cyrillic ш) and i (и), but they mean with the word "Šlisselburg" (engl. transcr. "Shlisselburg") the German name Schlüsselburg. Same is with the word "Petergof" → Peterhof and "Sankt-Peterburg" → Sankt Peterburg (St. Petersburg in Russian from German).

Sincerely,

--PKo 16:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

PKo, on the contrary, I understand it very well (Russian is my native language, by the way). Yes, there are no "sch" and "ü" (Roman) letter combinations in Russian, and yes, other means are used to approximate them. Once the word is "approximated" ("Шлиссельбург", "Петергоф"), the resulting words are what is used by Russians; that's what you will find in the Russian dictionaries.

Once a word is adopted, it may migrate to other languages. In case of Shlisselburg, the name migrated to English from Russian, hence the English spelling of "Shlisselburg". "Peterhof", on the other hand, migrated to English directly from German, bypassing Russian (which would be "Petergof"). Why and how it works is in the end completely unimportant. What's important, is the preferred modern English usage, and that's what Misplaced Pages uses. Just because "Shlisselburg" is "Schlüsselburg" in German is not a good enough reason to change the article's title in the English Misplaced Pages. That's simply not the name under which the town is known to Anglophones. "Schlüsselburg", however, is a redirect and it is mentioned in the body of the article.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: In case of Shlisselburg, the name migrated to English from Russian, hence the English spelling of "Shlisselburg". Yes, but we know, that is from German, like "Petergof" and "Sankt-Peterburg". For example, I think that You don't suggest that from Russian newspaper or book You wrote "Garri Gopkins" but Harry Hopkins...

Sincerely,

--PKo 19:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I know perfectly well that the name originated from German—it is a plain obvious and well-known fact; there is no need to convince me. However, it just so happened that the English language did not borrow it from German, but from Russian, and that's the name that's commonly used in English (as at least two major English language encyclopedias attest). Misplaced Pages uses the version commonly used in English; it is Misplaced Pages's policy. The fact that the word is originally German is irrelevant in this case. "Garri Gopkins" is not a valid comparison because it is not the name that's currently commonly used in English, just as "Petergof" is not ("Harry Hopkins" and "Peterhof" are used instead). I am sorry, but I don't know how else to explain this to you. The bottom line is that "Schlüsselburg" is unacceptable because Anglophones prefer the other variant. Unless you can prove otherwise (convincing Britannica editors to change the spelling would be a good first step; pardon my sarcasm), I suggest we close this discussion.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

So, Misplaced Pages shows that there is no logic: Peterhof but Shlisselburg. Pity...

Sincerely,

--PKo 19:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I see you still have not understood what I was trying to explain. The logic of the policy is to use the name that's commonly used, not whatever else someone might want to impose on the community (I don't mean you, by the way—see naming-related archives here for an excellent illustration of what I mean). The lack of logic you see simply mirrors the lack of logic in natural languages, which are abundant with exceptions and inconsistencies. Once you accept and understand it, you'll see that it actually simplifies things, not complicates them. Also, if I may remind you, it is your right to challenge any Misplaced Pages policy you disagree with. Regards,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Russian grammar

It seems as though, once again, I am in desire of your native-speaker services; this time in the Russian grammar article. I'd like to refine the IPA but I don't know the stress to all the words. If a word has two stresses, don't be afraid to mark both of them. It doesn't look like it should take you more than a few minutes, but there's no rush. Thank you in advance. AEuSoes1 09:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Where exactly do you want those stress marks? On every Russian word in the article? Or do you have some specific sections in mind?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Just on the IPA transcriptions that are already there. I've put stress (hopefully correctly) on some of the IPA transcriptions but I can only do so much. AEuSoes1 19:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, done. One request, though. If you are going to ask me to do this again in future, could you please not put the stresses in words which you know for sure? I apparently have an incomplete font in my IE, so most of IPA symbols (including the stress mark) look as empty boxes to me in the edit box, so I have to compare what's in the edit box with the a copy of the article to make sure I don't accidentally put the stress mark in twice.

Also, I noticed that in most examples with "-сп+vowel" combinations IPA shows that "с" is soft. Just want to let you know that it's not the case—I, for one, pronounce it hard (in fact, it takes an extra effort for me to pronounce soft "с" in the examples I corrected). I might have missed some, though, so you might want to take a look at this one more time.

Finally, in the word "колонн" the final "-нн" does not sound long.

Hope I've been able to help. Let me know if you need anything else or if you have questions.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I've narrowerized (not a real word) the transcription. What dialect of Russian do you speak? According to Sound Pattern of Russian (1959) there are two possibilities for for paired dental consonants before palatalized labial and dental consonants and before |lʲ|:

In standard Moscow pronunciation they are always palatalized

In literary pronunciation it goes something like

1. Within a simple word, labials tend to be palatalized
2. |n| is palatalized before palatalized dental consonants and plain before palatalized labial consonants
3. In complex words across prefix and preposition boundaries, dental continuants are palatalized before palatalized dental consonants and before |lʲ| but are plain before palatalized labial consonants. Dental stops in this position differ "from plain stops in other positions by a tendency towards delabialization." (p68)

I've been going with the standard Moscow pronunciation since it's generally simpler. AEuSoes1 02:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, man, but you lost me soon after the "Sound Pattern of Russian (1959)" :) I am not a linguist after all, I just speak the language.

I don't speak Moscow dialect, I can tell you that much. Maaaskvaaa-speak does in fact sound very unpleasant and silly to me; so if they palatalize their "с"'s before palatalized "п"'s (I don't quite remember if they do, and don't have a native Muscovite nearby to perform an autopsy on), that must be one of the thousand reasons why. I am originally from the Russian Far East, by the way, if that helps you pinpoint the dialect I am speaking. Sorry that I am not of much help.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah ha! I had a feeling standard Moskva dialect would sound grating to other speakers. I feel the same way about Australian. AEuSoes1 20:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I find it incredibly hilarious that you know so much about Russian phonology but don't speak Russian, and that I speak Russian but have no clue about Russian phonology. A perfect team, eh? :)—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

for del

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Op%C5%A1tina Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The page as it exists is not quite MOSDAB-compliant—I can see how it can be mistaken for a dictdef. Anyway, I voted to keep it, but it should really be re-formatted, even though it means having a bunch of red links.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

it should not be called dab at all, but be about slavic word ob/ps/ctine/a. best Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it starts with "Opština... can refer to", so if you don't want it to be mistaken for a dab, I suggest rewording the intro and replacing the list of meanings with narrative.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Pirogovs

Hi, I just wrote the Pyrohiv (Kiev) and created the Pirogov dab. Now, my question is what to do with Pirogovo.

There are several locations in RU with this name, along with the Pirogovo Reservoir near Moscow. How notable are they. Should Pirogovo be a redirect to a very notable Pyrohiv (Kiev)? Then Russian settlements should be added to Pirogovo (disambiguation) page. Another option is to have two separate disambiguations: Pirogov (disamgiguation) and Pirogovo being a disambiguation too. I am kust not sure how many Pirogovos are in Russia and whether any of them are particularly notable. --Irpen 21:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The way I'd do it is this. Pirogov and Pirogovo (disambiguation) should be two separate dabs (Nikolai Pirogov isn't the only notable person by that name; I'll add more on Monday), but interlinked with each other via the "see also" section. Pirogovo proper should definitely redirect to Pyrohiv (note that "(Kiev)" disambiguator is unnecessary, unless there are other entities by the name of "Pyrohiv"), and Pyrohiv should contain a dablink at the top stating that "Pirogovo redirects here; for other uses see Pirogovo (disambiguation)". All Russian villages named "Pirogovo" should be listed at Pirogovo (disambiguation)—I don't have my master list with me at the moment, but I'll check on Monday to see how many are there. Geo-locations are inherently notable, so they should be listed, although I usually don't list minor villages, adding a statement that "such and such is the name of several rural settlements in Russia" to the disambiguation pages instead. I plan on going through the villages when all districts/cities/towns/urban-type settlements are interlinked and disambiguated.

Let me know if this explanation is too confusing. If you wish, I can implement this scheme on Monday after I check the master list of the Russian settlements.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, pls do. As for the article I wrote, I do not object if it is moved from Pyrohiv (Kiev) to Pyrohiv. Even if there are other Pyrohivs in UA, they are certainly less notable. --Irpen 17:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, done. Please re-check in case I missed anything. Also, the article on Nikolay Ivanovich Pirogov states that he was born in Pirogovo, Ukraine. I take it's different from Pyrohiv, but could you look into it, please? The "modern name" spelling would need to be corrected at the very least. Thanks!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I added the Pirogovo Reservoir near Moscow to the dab. As for Pirogov's birth, that was the easiest part, as NP was born in Moscow. I don't know who and when added Pirogovo there. He died in Ukraine, indeed. --Irpen 18:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Good catch! You never know what you are going to find once you start untangling all those redirects/dabs. Thanks for fixing it!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:Primorsky_Krai_Flag.png

Thanks for uploading Image:Primorsky_Krai_Flag.png. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Misplaced Pages's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

• Misplaced Pages:Image use policy
• Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions. 08:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Svg version was available, I deleted the image.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

First Patriarch: Job or Jove?

I need your opinion about this. --Ghirla 16:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know much (well, anything) about the subject, so I may be missing something, but we should use the name under which this person is best known in English language academic works. If more than one version is commonly used, then any would be acceptable (the choice of the first major contributor usually takes precedence). If there are many versions, none of which is firmly established, we should go with romanization (Iov). Hope this helps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The preferred romanization seems to be Job. Here's a larger problem. If you don't see much sense at the moves of Ksnyatin to Ksniatin and Sknyatino to Skniatino (especially with our system of redirects), you may want to explain our guidelines to User:Kazak, who performs the moves so enthusiastically. --Ghirla 07:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I will explain the geo-portion. As for the historical names, I see Mikka and Irpen already left him their notes. You might want to leave one yourself so there's no mistake that such massive moves are disruptive. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

vandals

Grigori Rasputin: vandals tend to flock. Always check prev edit as well, not just hit rv button. Look even deeper in pages that attract vandals, as this one. `'mikka (t) 18:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I usually do. I don't see what I missed, though—all your edit did was to restore a blank line. Did you miss something yourself?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

OOps. the prev vandal added and deleted a line of stupid text. I just confused left and right panes of comparison when stepping thru changes. My bad. `'mikka (t) 18:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Happens to me every once in a while, too :)—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Viktor Khristenko

I saw you tend to edit Russia-related articles. If you are familiar with Viktor Khristenko, a former Prime Minister of Russia, please do your best to expand the article or add references to uncited content. Thanks, DRK 21:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Russia

Something must be done to reduce the size of the article. Do you find nice the pictures with peasants? As if Russia is a country of peasants.--РКП 18:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

"Peasants" are a part of Russia's history; there is nothing wrong with that. The picture is more than appropriate in the history section—Russia was primarily an agricultural country; "a country of peasants" if you wish. Besides, removing the image would do almost nothing to reduce its size.

While I do agree that the article could be shortened, perhaps considerably, I absolutely do not condone the way you did it. Cutting pieces out and shoveling them to loosely-related locations is not the way to go. Trimming such a high-profile article requires a well-thought plan, and obtaining a second opinion from other interested parties before making edits wouldn't have hurt either. What's the rush, anyway?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ëzhiki, apparently things can change very rapidly here in Misplaced Pages. You are free to edit, free to delete, free to add new lines. Let's see how it is in reality. Things don't change so rapidly. So? You're free to make it more flexible, to cut it. --РКП 18:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because things can change very rapidly doesn't always mean one should be changing them as fast as one can. If you rapidly improve something, no one will be against it. What you did, however, can hardly be classified as an improvement, although I am sure you had best intentions at heart. Please listen to what others have to say; all of the points raised on your talk page are very valid.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Up to now, you're the only one who isn't subjective on this matter. The rest wants to keep huge parts of trash. It's not good for Russia--РКП 18:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I have a strong suspicion that this user is a seasoned troll. Right now he is contributing nothing, only making nuisance with frivolous tags and arbitrary splitting of articles. `'mikka (t) 19:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

rvv (via UR-100)

Yes, I did it manually. I don't know how to revert articles. I'd like to know how. --jno 09:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Jno, in order to revert to one of the previous versions, go to article's "history" (a tab next to the "edit this page" tab). I trust you know how to use this screen to see the diffs between versions (if not, let me know). Click on the date/time link of the version you want to revert to, then press "edit this page". You'll be presented with a normal edit screen, except there will be a pink warning at the top reminding you that the version you are about to edit is not current. Type "reverting vandalism" or something of that nature into the "edit summary" box and save the page. Voilà! Let me know if anything is still unclear, or see Help:Reverting for more detailed instructions. The only difference between admins and non-admins is that admins can revert to the previous version with one click, instead of going through multiple steps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! It's really goofy to not find such a facility - I use history feature intensively... --194.67.2.155 14:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)