| Revision as of 20:31, 7 November 2017 view sourceDoug Weller (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Oversighters, Administrators264,085 edits →Nathan B. Forrest: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter: d← Previous edit | Revision as of 00:21, 8 November 2017 view source L235 (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Administrators27,358 edits →Joefromrandb: declined by the CommitteeNext edit → | ||
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| == Joefromrandb == | |||
| '''Initiated by ''' ] (]) '''at''' 13:44, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Involved parties === | |||
| <!-- Please change "userlinks" to "admin" if the party is an administrator --> | |||
| *{{admin|TomStar81}}, ''filing party'' | |||
| *{{userlinks|Joefromrandb}} | |||
| ;Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request | |||
| <!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. --> | |||
| * | |||
| ;Confirmation that other steps in ] have been tried | |||
| <!-- Identify prior attempts at dispute resolution here, with links/diffs to the page where the resolution took place. If prior dispute resolution has not been attempted, the reasons for this should be explained in the request for arbitration --> | |||
| *Link 1 | |||
| *Link 2 | |||
| === Statement by TomStar81 === | |||
| Approximately 48 hours ago I as an uninvolved administrator. The thread concerned the behavior of one {{User|Joefromrandb}}, whose disposition was...colorful, to say the least. At the time I had three observations, one concerning consensus, one concerning bad blood and one for the editing restriction list. After a night's sleep I decided I had an ethical obligation to follow up on the bad blood on the thread, and that's why I'm here. | |||
| At the time of the original closure, as an uninvolved admin, I had assumed that the bad blood was of a vendetta nature - that two editors had a disagreement () and someone with the admin tools had ended it (though that ended up not strictly being the case). In my follow up investigation though I have found that community and Joe apparently do not get along well, if they get along at all. , and lately there have been mounting demands for an indef block on ANI, some going as far back as 2013/14 (ANI reports include the following: ; also located ]), and in every case to date the blocks have been, for various reasons, declined or overturned, however the underlying issues still seem to be present. As much as it pains me to admit, this is beyond my ability to adequately deal with, and due to the long time over which this has played out it its probably beyond the community's ability to adequately deal with as well. At this point it is my professional opinion that this matter should be referred to the arbitration committee for a thorough, independent, and formal investigation into all aspects of this matter and to better balance the needs of the community against the allegations of the editor. ] (]) 13:44, 20 October 2017 (UTC) (<s><small>PS: I'm an admin, not sure what I did but I apparently messed up how that's rendered here. Sorry.</small></s>) | |||
| *{{ping|Gerda Arendt}} Quite the opposite, actually: you are to be commended. This request is a direct result of the last ANI - specifically, its a direct result of the community's anti-joe element indefinitely blocking and ''then'' attempting to justify the indef block in an after the fact sense. ANI is for consensus on action to be taken, but the community has reached a point where its now looking for any excuse to implement the indef block it so badly wants. In that moment of short shortsightedness though I judge that the community has violated its right to push for the block by assuming bad faith, so the only way I can see to protect joe ''from'' this half of the community is to involve ARBCOM. In a sense, what I'm asking for is arbcom intervention because I have no faith or confidence that the portion of the community continually wrapped up in this can act in good faith toward joe anymore. <s>Arbcom supersedes community consensus, so</s> taking this here is the best chance I can think of to keep the indef block from materializing from those who would otherwise implement it simply because they are fed up dealing with this. ] (]) 16:14, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{ping|Only in death}} Quite right, thank you for the correction. ] (]) 16:23, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***{{ping|Callanecc}} Any list as such would be rather long I suspect, but we could limit it to those participating the ANI and RFC, which would narrow it down and timeline it as such. The RFC was filed by Purplebackpack89; ANI threads begin with AutomaticStrikeout in 2013/14 and end with TomStar81 in 2017, so they who participated in some way shape or form on those venues would in turn be the ones subject to the rule in an ''et al'' capacity for purposes of the case - essentially, the community most immediately affected by whatever arbcom does here since they seem to be the ones who vioced an opinion one way or the other. ] (]) 23:25, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Joefromrandb === | |||
| Every time I think I've seen it all here... ... ... Tom closed the ANI thread, with very specific instructions as to how things are supposed to be handled for the next 6 months. Now, after "sleeping on it", he changes his mind and says, "on second thought, let's ban the prick". How is this even permissible? His statement contains numerous inaccuracies and half-truths concerning "overturned and declined blocks" (only one of my blocks was ever overturned, and ANI-requests that I be shown the door were declined because consensus was always clearly and overwhelmingly against it), but considering the underhandedness of closing the ANI thread with the intention of forum-shopping it to Arbcom, why not go for the jugular, right? ] (]) 15:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @]: Yes and no. The wheat needs to be separated from the chaff here. I'll expand upon this later tonight or tomorrow morning, as time permits. ] (]) 21:41, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| That Ks0stm would even for a split-second consider any action other than recusing tells me all I need to know here, and renders any response to Newyorkbrad pointless. This is obviously going to be a star chamber trial. ] (]) 12:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @]: I'm certainly aware that "this approach" will do nothing to convince you or the other arbs. It wasn't meant as a persuasive tactic. Rather it was me throwing up my hands, and asking, "what's the use?". The arbitrators' questions are certainly reasonable, and my reluctance to answer isn't meant as dismissive apathy. I just fail to see how I can possibly get a fair hearing. That there are still 14 other arbitrators whom I can attempt to persuade does nothing to change the egregious unfairness of the situation. Upon reflection, I told Newyorkbrad that I would answer his questions, and as such I intend to honor my word; please allow me a bit more time to compose a response. I want my response to be as thoughtful, comprehensive, and truthful as possible, but I also want to note for the record, that I have serious reservations about this entire process. Let me just ask; if Ks0tsm refuses to recuse, do I have any avenue available with which to object, or am I simply shit-out-of-luck? ] (]) 01:24, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @], et. al.:With a tremendous amount of things going on in my life right now, & given the gargantuan portion I have on my plate (as do my children, who will always come first), I honestly don't know how long it will be before I have the time, energy, & mental acuity to compose the comprehensive, nuanced response which I would so very much like to do. As the possibility exists that I won't be able to complete such a statement within an amount of time which your colleagues & you will find acceptable, let me, for the moment, say: "what Robert McClenon said (i.e. 'Joefromrandb and others')". I'm always wiling to examine my behavior in the light of constructive criticism. When Drmies, or Floquenbeam, or Dennis Brown, or Black Kite, etc., suggest that I need to alter my approach, I take such suggestions at face value, and I'm grateful for them. When someone like Toddst1 trolls my talk page, attempting to provoke me, I'm likely going to respond in the manner in which said trolling was intended to illicit. I told Bkonrad to fuck off. That was out of line, and I apologized to him. As far as telling Toddst1 to fuck off goes, it could be argued that I should have simply reverted his baiting without comment, but to put one "fuck off" on equal footing with the other is ludicrous. Ditto for edit-warring. I've been involved in some incredibly stupid edit-wars, I admit. The latest one with BKonrad is a perfect example. Childish, idiotic behavior on my part. On the other hand, there are "edit wars" like the horseshit that Mr.X is here trying to peddle. That was a situation where Mr.X was repeatedly edit-warring LIES that I had removed from an article about a living person. Not half-truths, not undue weight; demonstrably false, bald-faced lies. In the future, should I find myself in a situation like the recent edit-war with BKonrad, hopefully I'll have the presence of mind to handle it much differently. Should I find myself in another situation like the one with Mr.X, I'll revert a hundred times in a row, if necessary, and then revert again. If this case is accepted, my hope is, exactly as Robert said, that the actions and attitudes of everyone involved are carefully analyzed, on a case-by-case basis. ] (]) 20:39, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @BMK: This specific case (with Mr. X) was not an error. "Learning from my.mistakes" would involve things the likes of not repeating trivial edit-warring. Removing demonstrable falsehoods from a BLP will never, ever be a "mistake" on the part of any editor. (The admin who closed the AN3 report as "no violation" went so far as to rebuke Mr. X for his frivolous allegations, as well as ''his'' repeatedly attempting to reinsert material that had been demonstrated to be, in the closing admin's words, "a flat-out fabrication".) Mr. X's behavior here is textbook psychological projection: taking the behavior of which he is guilty, and attempting to assign it to me. Again, wheat from the chaff is all I'm asking. Also, I did not use the word "troll" to describe Toddst1, and you, BMK, know I didn't. I said he trolled my talk page. That he did so is fact. It does not mean that the entirety of his 10 years here, as well as all 100,000 of his edits have been "trolling", and you, BMK, know it doesn't. Make no mistake about it, though: he most certainly engaged in the behavior of "trolling" in this specific incident. I had already self-reverted before he filed his AN3 report, so the edit-war was over. Additionally, he conveniently chose to report all of my reverts at that page ''except'' my self-revert. Most egregiously, however, his report made no mention whatsoever of my counterpart in this edit-war -- the editor who, like me, made 5 reverts to the page, and who, like me, had broken WP:3RR; blatant and shameless lying by omission. His report was not at all done in the interests of stopping an edit-war, and you, BMK, know it wasn't. Ditto for his "personal attack" template on my talk page, and the song and dance he's been doing ever since. Wheat from the chaff. ] (]) 23:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I see Mr. X is still playing the victim here. He didn't "supposedly" add lies to the article. He didn't "allegedly" add lies to the article. He added lies to the article. Full stop. If the case winds up being accepted, I'll compile diffs. In the meantime, I invite anyone so inclined to have a look through the ] article's history, its talk page, and the AN3 archives. ] (]) 23:45, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @]: I must say I'm a bit puzzled as far as: "continues to respond to administrators with obscene interjections". Which ones? I'm sure I've probably sworn at an administrator before, but I don't recall doing it recently, and if I have, I certainly don't think it qualifies as a "continuing" issue. More importantly, if it were true, why would it be an issue worth mentioning here? Even assuming that I have, in fact, been doing this, in what way would swearing at an administrator be different than swearing at a user without the tools? If your gripe is: "he keeps telling people ro fuck off", then that's a fair complaint, but the way you've put it, in addition to being (I think, at least) inaccurate, perpetuates the whole notion of the Inner Party. ] (]) 02:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @]: Sure, there's a possibility. Absolutely. Who could possibly argue with such a reasonable suggestion, phrased in such a dispassionate manner? ] (]) 00:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @Committee: I urge the rest of you to at least give pause to what OR, and now Cas, have said, which was initially my biggest gripe about this whole thing. Tom closed the ANI, initiating the caveat that any civility complaints in the next 6 months could be brought to ANI, discussed, and reviewed by an uninvolved administrator. Two days later, he was here filing a case. If any other user had filed this case two days after the ANI was closed, it would almost certainly be considered "forum shopping", and the filing party would have been advised to follow the instructions Tom provided in his closing statement. Why is Tom then permitted to change his mind? When Gerda questioned him about this, his position became that he was trying to shield me from being indef-blocked by another knee-jerk reaction from a trigger-happy administrator, but that just doesn't add up: his close specified that I am not to be indef-blocked within the next 6 months without a full discussion at ANI, reviewed and closed by an uninvolved administrator. An administrator should be just as expected to abide by his or her close as any other user. Allowing this case to proceed runs the risk of setting a troubling precedent. ] (]) 16:56, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @]: While I could surely provide such a list, I would almost certainly decline to do so. One, I consider "tattling" to be an obnoxious activity for children and an inexcusable one for adults. Two, I find it egregiously frustrating that such behaviors are anything less than self-evident. Any instances of incivility on my part that haven't been followed by an apology have most likely been predicated by puerile baiting. If the case is accepted, I will likely provide evidence of the reciprocal behaviors of other editors on a case-by-case basis, but to provide such a list as a prophylactic measure is not something I could likely justify to myself. ] (]) 18:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @BMK: I am not "making" the distinction between calling Todd a troll and noting that he engaged in a act of trolling. I am pointing out the distinction, as you apparently either confused or attempted to conflate the two. Your attempt at poisoning the well with your accusation would certainly suggest the latter. As far as "paying lip service to the idea of change" because of a potential Arbcom case, that's laughable. I've never done anything at the point of a bayonet in real life, so I'm damn well not about to do so online. The idea that I would pay "lip service" to anything is your most ridiculous conjecture yet. My response to Newyorkbrad's question was proportionate to the amicable way in which it was poised, and the fact that Brad is obviously attempting to de-escalate the situation, as opposed to Todd's obvious attempt to fan the flames. ] (]) 18:58, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @]: Yes, rereading that, I can see how it could easily have come across as: "well sure, anything's ''possible''. That isn't at all how I intended it. What, exactly, is it that you're looking to hear from me? If I were to promise to never again be rude to anyone on this site, I'd just be setting both of us up to look like assholes: me for going back on my word, and you for sticking your neck out for me (which, by the way, is not at all something that I take lightly). I certainly think that OR's suggestion is an excellent one, and I do intend to make a serious attempt to put it into practice. I so much wish I had handled both recent situations that way. With the former, I would have realized that the user in question did nothing to deserve my invectives, preventing a lot of needless escalation, not to mention the crow feathers I'm still picking from my teeth after apologizing (again, on my own accord, because I realized I was out of line; not because of someone threatening to block me, report me, what have you ). With the latter, it would have prevented the hours upon hours of drama. The best way to deal with attention-seeking behavior is to ignore it, and I did the opposite, allowing myself to get "played like a Stradavarius", as one editor perfectly put it. I don't know if that's anywhere close to what you're looking to hear from me. I'm certainly willing to listen to any good-faith suggestions, and give serious consideration to any constructive criticism. On the other hand, if I'm going to be expected to respond to baiting with obsequiousness; if I'm going to be required to offer the other cheek upon demand, that is a situation that I will invariably find untenable. ] (]) 22:11, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @IHTS: My value to this site is nowhere near that of Eric's, but I understand the parallel. I've only interacted with him a handful of times, but in each case he was quite cordial. Eric strikes me as a decent, well-liked individual. Sadly, he's been subjected to a mind-numbing amount of{{endash}}I believe Black Kite called it "fuckwittery"{{endash}}on this site. For all the talk about him having a short fuse, the fact that he has continued to donate his time to this project despite being shit on for years, in reality, shows that he has the patience of Job. I believe it was Eric who said something along the lines of; "the key to avoiding incivility is to avoid the triggers", wise words that are particularly germane to this potential case. ] (]) 11:03, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Gerda Arendt === | |||
| I have a 5-years history of getting along well with Joefromrandb. Several blocks I watched were overturned for good reason. It's all on his talk. - Perhaps I am not part of the community. --] (]) 15:55, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you, ]. What cat image would express best: you worded that so much better than I could? --] (]) 08:54, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Ivanvector === | |||
| I'll make an actual statement momentarily, just noting that the first two of {{ul|TomStar81}}'s ANI diffs are to the same discussion. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 15:59, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I encourage the Committee to accept this case. Joefromrandb's block log shows 4 escalating blocks for incivility since June of this year, none of which were overturned. A fifth and indefinite incivility block was overturned recently seemingly only because of concerns over process, not a significant consensus that the block was incorrect. This most recent incident stemmed from a report of edit warring, and Joefromrandb's block log also shows a pattern of edit warring with multiple blocks for this going back to 2012, and most recently in February of this year. That should be evidence enough that community actions are insufficient to get the point across to this user, thus the Committee's intervention is inevitable. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 16:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ==== Supplemental statement by Ivanvector ==== | |||
| <small>clerks: if this lv4 is inappropriate please feel free to just remove it, it won't affect my subsequent comment</small> | |||
| I see in the interval since I posted my statement that this seems to have turned into another rehashing of the "can editors say 'fuck'" pointless perennial debate. Can we ''not''? I mean, it should be fucking obvious to anyone who's looked at any of the fucking drama boards any time in the last few fucking years that editors saying 'fuck' is not a big fucking deal. The utterance of the word 'fuck' is not at issue here, or ever really, it's patterns of incivility. Sure, sometimes you can use 'fuck' in a rude comment, but if just typing the four letters was enough to draw sanctions, we'd have a lot fucking fewer editors. 'Fuck' isn't an Arbcom issue; except for a rare few purists there isn't even significant disagreement on this point. | |||
| Drawing attention to Joefromrandb's use of 'fuck' is drawing attention away from the more serious issues. Those are that there's an editor with a history of sanctions directly related to their patterns of incivility and edit warring, some other editors who (allegedly) deliberately goad this editor knowing that they'll either be drawn into an edit war or respond rudely and draw admin attention, and a history generally of the pitchfork squad being utterly and sometimes hilariously incapable solving these exact kinds of disputes (and this one specifically). It's on these issues that the Committee should accept or decline this case, ''not'' because ]. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 13:43, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by OID === | |||
| Just to correct Tom here, "ARBCOM supersedes community consensus" - no it doesn't. ARBCOM's remit is to take action where the community is unable to come to a consensus and so is deadlocked. (This doesn't invalidate your basic point that I agree in this case the community is effectively deadlocked on how to deal with Joe - given the same issues keep reoccurring.) ] (]) 16:20, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Alex Shih === | |||
| I find the timing and rationale of this arbitration request very puzzling. Before filing any requests, I think it should be the responsibility of the filer to make sure ] without logical inconsistencies. To paraphrase this request from my reading, "there is no consensus to block Joe, but consensus is to indef Joe; there have never been community consensus to ban Joe, so to avoid Joe from being banned, we should escalate so Joe won't be banned". There is merit to this case however. Since the AN/I discussion has been ], to make sure we don't revisit the same situation again, I do think it is to the best of interest of everyone to request clarification on key policies involved, as in my opinion the situation here is and has been beyond {{u|Joefromrandb}} as an editor; rather, it is about the disconnect between editors over different interpretations, applications and understandings on the realities of ] and ]. ]] 16:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Ks0stm}} I don't mean to question you, but you have been extensively involved with the situation of {{u|Joefromrandb}} in the past according to ]. I was wondering if you could clarify that you consider yourself ] in this case. Thanks. ]] 03:27, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by MrX === | |||
| Arbcom should take this case because the recent ANI thread once again demonstrates that ANI is unsuitable for resolving serious, long-term disruptive behavior when it involves personal attacks, or more broadly, civility. That said, the much more serious concern is Joefromrandb's ongoing history of edit warring and general battleground conduct. Even to the notification of this case request demonstrates a troubling unwillingness to adhere to basic social norms. Of his ten blocks, five happened in the past ten months, so the problem is only getting more urgent. | |||
| Joefromrandb's habitual incivility when his edits are challenged saps energy from everyone else who plays well together in the sandbox. It's wholly unacceptable on a collaborative (and supposedly collegial) crowd-sourced project and needs to be addressed by simple arbitration. I hope, but don't expect, that Arbcom will simply address this user's conduct without trying to create grandiose principles and more discretionary sanctions the only clog up the works.- ]] 17:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :For the record, the "LIES" that I supposedly added to an article is documented ]. Specifically, in which I added (text in red) "The governor's office said that the conflict was a "matter between her and the courts". {{color|red|Beshear added that he "had no power to grant her release."}}" based on which says: "{{color|red|"The governor added that he has no power to remove Davis from office."}}. My error was in conflating the two (''release from jail'' and ''remove from office''). Had Joefromrandb simply explained this discrepancy in an edit summary, on his talk page, my talk page, or the article talk page, I would have gladly fixed it. He could have also edited the wording himself, as {{U|Neutrality}} .- ]] 22:33, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well done, {{U|Opabinia regalis}}. You took an isolated incident involving Toddst1, built that up to be a strawman of injustice upon Joefromrandb, and then used it as an excuse to decline to consider evidence of long term ] behavior that several respected editors view to be a detriment to the project. Bonus points for ''appearing'' to be one of few reasonable people in the room. Fuck! Drmies even needs to get a coffee. | |||
| ::If it is not clear enough from Joefromrandb's comments on this very page that there is an attitudinal problem that drives his edit warring, overt hostility, and unwillingness to cooperate with those he deems as unworthy, then I have little hope for the future of this project. I'm also slightly disappointed that an arbitrator would use this setting to advance their personal views that are evidently at odds with ] policy, unambiguously described in ].- ]] 00:58, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by Toddst1=== | |||
| As the party that most recently brought this editor's long-term behavior issue to ANI (the first thread mentioned/closed by TomStar81 above), I fully support Arbcom addressing this. I had hoped that it could be sorted out at ANI but as several folks pointed out, the community has deadlocked on how to deal with this. I ask Arbcom, the same question that I asked the community at ANI: "At what point do we say we've had enough?" | |||
| This question is not about any particular interaction - this is about the long-term pattern of incivility and battleground approach to dealing with other editors that is now more than clear. | |||
| A couple of points on TomStar81's statement - I certainly had or have no bad blood for Joefromradb. As far as I know, I've never had a conflict with him before October 16. In fact, back in December 2013, I unblocked Joefromrandb when I was an admin. Now, you'll see quite a few mentions of my name on his talk page by other users who *have* had a beef with me, and decided that this editor's talk page was a welcome place to kvetch, but as far as I can tell, I haven't had any other history with Joe. Several editors have characterized "bad blood" and "enemies" related to Joefromrandb. I have not and do not fit that description. | |||
| I became involved on Oct 16, observing the edit war on ] as an uninvolved third-party, reporting it to AN3, then after becoming one of the many editors told to "fuck off" by Joefromrandb, AIV. After realizing the dimensions and longevity of the disruptive behavior from this user, I closed the AN3 and AIV reports and moved the issue to ANI. | |||
| Yes, him telling me to fuck off was preceded by a template on his talk page, but the dimensions of excuse-making for this editor, comparing my one template application to Joefromradb's epic history of edit-war and incivility blocks laced with battle-ground behavior is absurd and clearly driven by other editors' bad blood for me. Please separate these issues. If anyone wants to open a case on me and get their beefs off their chests, please do so - separately. | |||
| At this point, I feel Joefromrandb's chronic and epic incivility and battleground behavior is a strong net-negative on the project. ] <small>(])</small> 19:15, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Comment by Beyond My Ken=== | |||
| Joefromrandb: ''Let me just ask; if Ks0tsm refuses to recuse, do I have any avenue available with which to object, or am I simply shit-out-of-luck?'' Well, you could file a request with SuperDuperArbCom (if such a thing existed) '''''or''''' you could do as was suggested and give concrete reasons, complete with evidence, as to why Ks0tsm is so biased against you that they should recuse ("excuse oneself from a case because of a possible conflict of interest or lack of impartiality") from the case. Generally, at least in the American legal system, recusal is a matter of honor left up to the judge, after considering suggestions from all parties. Perhaps it might be beneficial to AGF that if Ks0tsm is shown by you why it's clear that they should stand down, they would do so, instead of assuming that they have already prejudged your case. ] (]) 08:48, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :As for the merits of the case, I do think that ArbCom should accept it. My observation is that the community is fairly divided on Joefromrandb's behavior, and it seems unlikely that any resolution is going to come about with more AN/I discussions, or more civility blocks, which do not seem to have been effective. ] (]) 08:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Joefromrandb: ''On the other hand, there are "edit wars" like the horseshit that Mr.X is here trying to peddle. That was a situation where Mr.X was repeatedly edit-warring LIES that I had removed from an article about a living person. Not half-truths, not undue weight; demonstrably false, bald-faced lies. ... Should I find myself in another situation like the one with Mr.X, I'll revert a hundred times in a row, if necessary, and then revert again.''{{parabr}}I empathize with Joefromrandb's position here, since I found myself in a similar situation a while ago, reverting in what I believed was the defense of ]. An admin didn't see it that way, and I was blocked (to be unblocked after promising to stay away from the article). The flaw in Joefromrandb's thinking is, I believe, in stating that he would do the same thing again: if one doesn't learn from one's errors (even if one doesn't personally consider them to be mistakes, the community does) then the community has to have legitimate concerns about the editor's ability to function within our somewhat odd system.{{parabr}}I also note that Joefromrandb fails to deal convincingly with the question of civility – which is the primary accusation against him, not edit warring. He notes "constructive criticism" from editors he respects, and a willingness to change in the light of this, but doesn't really explain why he hasn't '''''already''''' changed his behavior in the face of long-standing criticism of his attitude. Certainly not '''''all''''' the people complaining are those Joefromrandb has no respect for, and not all of them are "trolls" (a description he applies to a 10-year editor and ex-admin with over 100,000 edits, that in and of itself could be seen as indicative of the complaints lodged against Joefromrandb). ] (]) 21:29, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::That Joefromrandb is making a distinction between calling Toddst1 a "troll" and saying that Toddst1 "trolled his user page" is quite a good example of why ArbCom needs to take this case: it's the kind of behavior that the community has been unable to deal with, and which it seems it will never be able to deal with, because it appears to be part and parcel of Joefromrandb's attitudinal makeup. Joefromrandb appears to be incapable of dealing with even the mildest criticism without lashing out against his critic ("and you, BMK, know I didn't ... and you, BMK, know it doesn't ... and you, BMK, know it wasn't"). In point of fact, what BMK knows is that despite years of complaints, Joefromrandb hasn't changed, seems to be incapable of change, and is only paying lip service to the idea of changing because he's finally been brought to ArbCom. ] (]) 01:57, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ping|Callanecc}} I really can't believe that you are seriously asking Joefromrandb to provide the Committee with his Enemies List. Please consider retracting this very, very bad suggestion. ] (]) 02:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{ping|Callanecc}} That appears to me to be a distinction without a difference. You're opening the door for score-settling, which, from an editor with a reputation for having an extremely thin skin (see both of his immoderate responses to my rather tepid criticisms here for an immediate instance), is a pretty dangerous thing to do. Additional parties would have become apparent on their own without the invitation to Joefromrandb to provide them. ] (]) 20:27, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm not looking to railroad Joefromrandb, my opinion is that the community had not been able to solve the problem of his behavior, and that leaves ArbCom to do the job, so in that respect I disagree with OR & Dennis. I do think that the more the scope of a potential case is opened up to be a sweeping review of '''"What is civility?"''' the more problematic it becomes, as opposed to simply dealing with the behavior of one editor in relation to the expectations of the community.{{parabr}}Then there's the approach of the never-naive Newyorkbrad, which I appreciate, but have some trouble seeing how it leads to a '''''solution'''''. I would appreciate hearing from Brad his feelings about how his efforts could result in a concrete action which would provide the community with some expectation that Joefromrandb will change his behavior. The late, lamented civility parole was, at least, an action that promised relief if the editor did not follow-through. On the other hand, the civility sanctions levied against The Rambling Man did not appear to work very well and ended up being watered-down to (essentially) a restatement of ]. What kind of assurance can the Committee give to the community if they wind up following Brad's path instead of accepting a case? (I'm not asking for a pre-judgment of the merits, rather an exploration of what kinds of results are conceivable.) ] (]) 19:52, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *I would encourage ArbCom in their effort to deal with this by motion instead of opening a full case. ] (]) 18:23, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Winged Blades of Godric === | |||
| *I would urge the committee to accept the case based on , and last part of observation(s).]<sup>]</sup> 16:28, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Also, I fail to find anything other than a bout of good-faith, when TomStar opened this case request.A portion of the community and prob. the subject has every right to believe that ArbCom's arbitrations don't always lead to fair results but as long as the committee exists, that is not an excuse to let it not fulfill it's pre-destined and codified purpose.]<sup>]</sup> 16:28, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Fully echo last paragraph and addition by RMC too.]<sup>]</sup> 08:19, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *+1 to {{U|Euryalus }}'s comment over and DQ's statement that {{tq|there is a pattern of behavioral issues which needs to be investigated}}.I don't think anybody can drag someone to ArbCom over the use of a single ''word'',( <u>which was delivered under a bout of instigation</u>) but what matters is Joe's (percieved) incapability to constructively accept any criticism from ''any'' quarters (sans a few case(s)), without him going after the editor who dared to tread on his path.But, as many arbs have commented this case shall not turn out to be one tending to define the boundaries of usage of cuss-words, their appropriateness or rel. to ''civility'' et al.]<sup>]</sup> 07:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by Robert McClenon === | |||
| The charter of the Arbitration Committee states that “The Arbitration Committee of the English Misplaced Pages has the following duties and responsibilities: 1. To act as a final binding decision-maker primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve…” The conduct of ], unfortunately, would be a textbook example of serious conduct disputes that the community is unable to resolve if there were a textbook. | |||
| I became aware of conflicts involving this editor four years ago, when a ] was filed, under a procedure that did not work well at the time and has since been discontinued. (Its original purpose appears to have predated the ArbCom and to have been used to request that Jimbo Wales ban a user.) At the time, I observed that Joefromrandb was a disruptive and hostile editor who in turn provoked hostility and disruption from other editors. There was too much name-calling at the time, and too many idle allegations of trolling, and too much bad blood. The RFC was closed inconclusively with a reminder to all parties that ]. The community did not resolve the dispute, at least not with any plausible concept of what is resolution. | |||
| Nothing has changed in four years except that the incidents in which the community has been unable to resolve the controversy have become more frequent. The subject editor has his opponents and his defenders, all of whom belong to the divided community. The subject editor is clearly not making any effort to ameliorate the conflict, and continues to respond to administrators with obscene interjections. He is blocked repeatedly, and sometimes the blocks expire and sometimes the blocks are lifted because it is clear that the community is divided. | |||
| The community has been unable to resolve the issues of the conduct of this editor and of the conduct of other editors toward this editor. At this point, any further proceedings at ] or ] are likely just to be shouting matches. It is time for the ArbCom to review the conduct of this editor, and of other editors toward this editor, in a deliberate quasi-judicial manner. I urge the ArbCom to accept this case, possibly as “Joefromrandb and Others”. | |||
| ] (]) 18:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::] probably has cursed equally at admins and at non-admins. ] (]) 03:52, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::There are some editors who are easily provoked, and annoying them in order to provoke them is wrong but fun, like poking a bear. When ArbCom considers a case involving provokable editors, it should consider both the action and the reaction. This case is about an editor, ], who has enemies who apparently provoke him, and ArbCom should consider whether they also need to be sanctioned. The analysis by the filing party ] is on the mark. ] (]) 05:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ====Follow-Up Statement by Robert McClenon==== | |||
| While I respect the comments by Opabinia regalis and the effort by Newyorkbrad to ask Joefromrandb whether he is willing to consider changing his behavior, I will note that similar questions were asked four years ago. There are a few editors who are surrounded by conflicts, and Joe is one of them, and asking him whether he is willing to consider changing his behavior is noble and idealistic, but is not likely to change the fact that other editors will bait him. The problem is that the atmosphere that surrounds editors like Joefromrandb is not conducive to retention of new editors. Something needs to be done, and the community as mob at ANI will not do it, so ArbCom needs to do it quasi-judicially. Maybe a new sort of discretionary sanction is needed, that attaches to an editor who is constructive but provocative, and that permits quick imposition of 30-day interaction bans. In any case, I ask the ArbCom to consider various sorts of remedies for editors such as this one, whom we do not want to indef or ban, but who are surrounded by controversy and have lengthy block logs that are often then lifted. ] (]) 18:11, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by SMcCandlish === | |||
| In going over the ANI evidence, I come back to my usual "using the F-word isn't automatically uncivil" position; different people have different tolerance and perception when it comes to such language. However, I think the nature of the diffs does suggest a ] and perhaps more importantly a ] problem (see especially ). Typing "fuck" isn't the actual issue; it is dismissing legitimate ] concerns raised by other editors (trying to resolve a ] issue) with nothing but a "go away, I will not listen to you" sentiment, regardless what exact words are used to express it. This appears to be a ] pattern, and when it continues for this long it's a ] and ] problem. No one can maintain this level of hostility, and refusal to listen to others, for this long and still be taken seriously as a net positive to the project, as actually here to collaborate in building an encyclopedia rather than playing some kind of debate and control game. PS: I agree with procedural comments above that this is definitely an ArbCom matter since the community has in fact deadlocked on what to do about it while clearly recognizing that there's a problem to be dealt with. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] ><sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>< </span> 04:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Kurtis === | |||
| My sole interaction with Joefromrandb was from several years ago, when he ] a discussion on my talk page about a comment that I had left at an RfA, on which we also exchanged a few words (see ] under oppose #3). I later participated in an ] that was opened against him in August 2013. However, I haven't really paid any attention to the drama at ANI or elsewhere, so I'm not up to speed on the more recent developments relating to this case. | |||
| So here's my take on what I've read thus far. Firstly, posting a ] on the talk page of an editor who has been here for seven years is offensive in pretty much any context, but doing so when the editor in question is clearly frustrated - ''especially'' when the source of their frustration is the person posting the warning - will do nothing but exacerbate the situation. While I don't disagree that Joe's been uncivil, I don't see any personal attacks in the links provided by Toddst1 at the ANI thread. I also don't think that the level of misconduct was sufficient to indefinitely block someone so soon after the discussion was opened, although it's clear that ] recognizes his mistake, so I think we can give him a pass here. Everyone screws up sometimes. | |||
| Ultimately, I believe that the Arbitration Committee should accept this case and expand its scope to examine the conduct of other involved parties in the recent ANI thread, rather than focusing exclusively on Joefromrandb. The community is clearly deadlocked on how to deal with this longstanding issue, and there is plenty of blame to go around. If we can find a lasting solution that helps us move forward from all this ugliness, everyone will be better off for it. But we have to stop kicking the can down the road. The problem isn't going to go away by not dealing with it. ] ] 08:05, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| @] - I'm surprised that you wouldn't remember ] from a while back, especially when at least one person ] as a reason for opposing your 2012 ArbCom candidacy. I get that it was five years ago, but I remembered it without even having to look it up (granted, I ''do'' have a very long memory for things that most people just forget, so take that with a grain of salt). While I won't attempt to pressure you in either direction, I personally think it would be best if you recused in this case, even if you don't currently hold any prejudice against Joefromrandb. That way nobody can make any claims about your involvement, however inaccurate they may be. ] ] 08:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *As an update to what I said earlier, I agree with the Committee's move to decline the case at this point in time. Callanecc and Newyorkbrad put it well, and I hope that future issues can be averted so that ArbCom doesn't need to get involved. ] ] 23:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Floq === | |||
| I promised myself I wouldn't comment on civility issues anymore, but I just want to say Brad has the right approach here, and if it isn't too late, I'd suggest both {{ping|Joefromrandb}}, and the Arbs who are considering accepting this case, consider that route instead. --] (]) 20:04, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Banedon === | |||
| Don't have anything to say with respect to the case itself, but since it looks like it'll be accepted, please name the case something other than "Joefromrandb" per . ] (]) 23:46, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Begoon === | |||
| Opabinia has it exactly right here. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> ]</span> 08:47, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|Joefromrandb|Joe}}, ''"fuckwittery"'' is indeed the right word, and if Black Kite invoked it in that context he should be commended. ''"The key to avoiding incivility is to avoid the triggers"'' is also correct, and, as IHTS says, profound. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> ]</span> 11:44, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Lepricavark === | |||
| I'd like to echo the suggestion made by Kurtis to accept the case, but with a scope wide enough to examine the actions of other involved editors, specifically Toddst1. I also agree with Kurtis, after looking at the discussion he linked, that Ks0stm should recuse himself. I do not believe that Ks0stm would act in bad faith in this case, but the Arbs should be careful to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. ] (]) 13:12, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Question by IHTS === | |||
| Can an arb please explain to me a meaningful/substantive difference between this complaint, and numerous ANIs/arbcoms surrounding another extremely smart, language-capable, long-time editor-writer (E.C.)? Joe doesn't have the FAs but his mainspace contributions are > 76%. Neither users' blunt remarks have been 100% on target, but never from a vacuum, always real/sincere, never seeking contention w/ any editor, never campaigning against any user (unlike the pursuing "When is enough enough?" admin). Thx. --] (]) 03:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{reply|Joefromrandb}}. Yes, "{{tq|The way to avoid 'incivility' is to avoid the triggers for it. — Malleus Fatuorum 13:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)}}". Like most things profound, utterly simple. (Another: E=mc{{sup|2}}. ;) ) --] (]) 11:14, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| As long as the discussion has grown psychological/philosophical wings, my comment: Asking one user for "assurances this problem" will be lanced—due to the lack of a working set of definitions, due to the inherent complexity of text-only messaging (which I doubt has ever been researched sufficiently, or at least said research has never been plugged into WP)—is really an unreasonable & inappropriate requirement for any user. (It is like asking someone to drive nails into a cloud.) And I believe the compulsion to take that dysfunctional shortcut, is simply because we're "lazy". (The project lacks time/resources/capability to define CIV parameters, so to just make one or the other user go away thru "restrictions" is easier. Will they be fairly applied & implemented? The meme is we don't have to know or care, this is WP, not a court.) "{{tq|The problem is Misplaced Pages is unprincipled: there are far more editors willing to jump in an ANI or talk page kerfuffle to talk about a specific incident than discuss underlying principles on the WP:Civility talk page and actually come to a consensus. It's choosing drama over hard work. Gerardw (talk) 00:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)}}" ¶ Lastly, curious why presumption that perceived incivility drives users from WP always seems to take precedence over presumption that being required to absorb perceived incivility like Jesus or Gandhi doesn't. --] (]) 11:24, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Cwmhiraeth === | |||
| While declining to take on this case, Opabinia regalis has made some really sensible comments on what happened to initiate this case request, with good advice to Joe and everyone else as to how to de-escalate a situation and avoid making snarky comments. I would urge the Committee to reject this case. ] (]) 08:49, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Hasteur === | |||
| Oh joy... Annother case that turns on the ] and ] duopoly. It comes down to how much casual incivility the community is expected to tollerate from a user who has some quantity of good contributions before the practice (Pillars, Rules, Policies, conventions, etc.) are enforced as opposed to a new user. ] (]) 22:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Unnecessary observation by Dennis Brown === | |||
| After reading {{u|Opabinia regalis}}'s exceptionally well written comment, I felt I need to applaud. As to the last section of her comment, she is correct, and why I always wave and smile like an idiot to someone giving me the finger during my daily 100 miles worth of commute. Sometimes the best revenge is refusing to be offended. Civility is not a good subject for ArbCom to settle, it never has been, regardless of who is serving, so my opinion isn't related to the current office holders. It is simply too subjective, too prone to bias, and anything short of NPA is too time consuming for a website that is building an encyclopedia, rather than a perfect society. As she states, it doesn't seem that all other options have been exhausted, nor that enough time has passed since the ANI was closed to allow behavior to change. Admin are willing and able to use the block button as needed, as evidenced by the block log. This simply doesn't seem ripe for Arbitration. ] - ] 22:49, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Unnecessary observation by Hawkeye7 === | |||
| I have a dream that one day instead of posting {{u|Dennis Brown}} sends me the 2c and I use the accumulated funds to establish a scholarship for athletes with disabilities. ArbCom routinely deals with editor behaviour, and our notion of civility lies at the heart of that. It is within the bailiwick of ArbCom to lay down sweeping rules on editor behaviour, if you chose to do so. It is also possible for arbitrators to set an example and exercise civility themselves by ''recusing when asked to do so'' regardless of whether you personally feel you would be biased or not. A recent candidate at RfA was asked whether it was acceptable for an editor to tell a vandal to fuck off. The simple fact is that we ''do'' tolerate this (and, for that matter, vandalism). Nor is NPA the line in the sand. I understand that some of you feel that turning down this case will merely kick the can down the road; but consider what you are attempting to accomplish. ] ] 00:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Comment by Nsk92 === | |||
| Oh, for Pete's sake, of course the case needs to be accepted. After years of problems, god knows how many ANI threads, clear evidence of battleground and idounthrearyou issues, just what makes you think that this problem is magically going to go away? So, instead of engaging in verbal gymnastics to talk yourselves out doing your job, don't be cowards and take the case. ] (]) 11:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Comment by WJBscribe=== | |||
| {{ping|Opabinia regalis}} Actually, I ''have'' nominated {{tl|Uw-civil-qa1}} for deletion - see ]. I don't think it's a particularly rouge action - there are definitely some issues with that particular template that go beyond the general issues with templated warnings... <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">] ]</strong> 10:35, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Ks0stm === | |||
| I urge the committee to take this case. Joefromrandb has an extensive block log of edit warring and incivility blocks, and the community has struggled to cobble together meaningful solutions to prevent issues from recurring, whether those issues rest with Joefromrandb or the editors and administrators who interact with him. This can be seen at a minimum through the raw number of ANIs over Joefromrandb, which have taken up far too much time that could have been spent being productive elsewhere, regardless of who's fault that may be. Further, the state of some of Joefromrandb's talk page interactions concerns me. However, from what I've seen, Joefromrandb is legitimately prone to taking bait, which is just as bad (or worse) a reflection on the person doing the baiting as it is on the person who takes the bait, so the committee as part of the case should examine whether baiting has been a significant factor, and the interaction of other editors with Joefromrandb should be within the scope. If baiting has been found to be a significant trigger for Joefromrandb's incivility, rather than it being inherent to his mode of interaction with other editors, then the first and foremost outcome of this case should be measures to limit the baiting of Joefromrandb and his taking of the bait, rather than draconian sanctions against Joefromrandb (which, FWIW, I feel like shouldn't be the default or assumed outcome regardless without significant evidence that they're necessary). ] <sup>(]•]•]•])</sup> 16:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === Statement by Jehochman=== | |||
| Hello. {{ping|newyorkbrad}}, {{ping|bishonen}}, “when is or isn't it proper to tell another editor to 'fuck off'?”. My advice is to reserve salty talk for one’s own page where nobody needs to read it unless they want to. Clarifying such principles is unnecessary work for ArbCom. If they don’t get it, laying out rules won’t help. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:21, 4 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Statement by {Non-party}=== | |||
| Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information. | |||
| <!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * --> | |||
| === Clerk notes === | |||
| :''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).'' | |||
| * | |||
| === Joefromrandb: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <3/7/2> === | |||
| {{anchor|1=Joefromrandb: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter}}<small>Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)</small> | |||
| *Awaiting statements. To be most helpful (at least to me), statements should address the substance of the issue and not only procedural matters (important as those may be). I ask ] to specifically address whether he believes there is anything problematic about his behavior and whether he has changed, or is prepared to change, any aspect of it. ] (]) 18:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **I see the growing consensus to accept, and I understand why Joefromrandb's responses to my question would point colleagues and others in that direction. My goal in posing the question was to provide Joefromrandb with a chance to deescalate this by agreeing to sand down some of his sharp edges, and obviously he's done that to only a partial extent here. I would prefer not to need a weeks-long case focused on a series of questions like "when is or isn't it proper to tell another editor to 'fuck off'?", but that is where we seem to be headed. The frightening thing is that this isn't even the first request for arbitration to raise, as one issue, that exact question about that exact phrase (see for my silly comment the last time). ], I understand you feel you are sometimes in the right in difficult situations (and admit you are sometimes wrong), but after years of being the subject of complaints, is there any possibility that you could undertake to deal with even the situations in which you are sure you are right in a very different way? ] (]) 19:13, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{ping|Joefromrandb}} You are reading my intentions here correctly: by my question I was seeking to deescalate the situation and potentially avoid the need for an arbitration case relating to interactions between you and other editors—not by sweeping the alleged issues under the rug, but by seeking to address them. I appreciate your acknowledging the reasonableness of the question. But if we are going to potentially make progress here, you need to be much more concrete about what you are willing and able to change about your behavior going forward. I suppose that {{tq|Sure, there's a possibility. Absolutely.}} is literally responsive to my question, but it hardly provides any sort of commitment to try to change behavior. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, or to lead you say something you don't really mean, but can you do any better than that? (Also, to colleagues and other commenters, the "f-off" reference was meant as a synecdoche of the issue here and I agree it is not the crux of the issue or the proposed case. Lastly, I do not agree that username-based casenames are inherently prejudicial—some cases really are focused on interactions involving a particular editor— but if there is a reasonable suggestion for a different sort of name for this case if it is accepted, we can consider it.) ] (]) 19:15, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **All right, yesterday's response from ] to me is certainly more promising. Let me put some thoughts on the table here. The key issue in "civility" or "battleground mentality" cases (though I hate the latter phrase) is not that an editor is violating someone's idea of decorum or politesse. Rather, the issue is that the editor who pushes the limits in these areas ''makes Misplaced Pages less pleasant for others''—and if Misplaced Pages becomes less pleasant, fewer people will contribute, or fewer people will contribute on particular topics or pages, or else if they do contribute they will respond in kind which makes the place less pleasant for ''everyone''. So at some point it becomes "we have to lose the difficult editor lest five others walk away." Joefromrandb, there is no denying that over the past several years, many other editors have concluded that Misplaced Pages would, unfortunately, be better off without your being here. That's a harsh judgment on a long-term, good-faith editor, and the community has not quite reached it yet—but you need to continue reflecting on why respectable editors, not all of whom are your personal or ideological foes by any means, would feel that way. Moreover, even apart from what may or may not become of this arbitration request, you really can't want a wiki-future of narrowly ducking proposed bans on the noticeboards, or eventually succumbing to one. So you need to make a very serious effort to heed the advice you're being given here by Opabinia and others, and I am reading your last statement as reflecting willingness to try. I suspect that some of those who have commented above believe that after all these years your wiki-attitude is inherent and unchangeable, and that by accepting assurances from you, I would be proving to be as naïve today ]—and that if we don't accept this case we are just delaying the inevitable, which is your separation from the project. Will you be able to prove them wrong? ] (]) 22:48, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **'''Decline at this time'''. I understand why this request for arbitration was filed and why there have been concerns raised about ]'s editing. Given the number of inconclusive noticeboard discussions that have taken place, this is a legitimate basis for bringing a matter here. If Joefromrandb had not shown at least some realization that his editing needs to change, I would be voting to accept, and so would enough other arbitrators that we would be opening the case. Based on Joefromrandb's posts above, though, I believe he has come to that realization, if perhaps not as fully as we might like. With some hesitation, I conclude that he should have a final chance before we open a case and spend weeks here examining his behavior. Joefromrandb and the others commenting here should understand that if there is another significant incident and this matter comes here again, my vote is likely to be different. ] (]) 22:03, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Waiting for Joe's further statement on NYB's question before deciding whether to accept or not. <b>]</b> (] • ] • ]) 00:47, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{Ping|Joefromrandb}} There are 14 other arbitrators who have a vote along with Ks0stm, taking that approach is going to do nothing to convince them/us of anything. Two other arbitrators have said that we want to know your perspective (before Ks0stm even commented) before making a decision to accept the case or not. <b>]</b> (] • ] • ]) 23:14, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{ping|Joefromrandb}} The relevant section of the Arbitration policy is ]. I'd suggest the first thing you should do is actually explain to Ks0stm why you believe he should recuse (rather just a link to something from 4 years ago). <b>]</b> (] • ] • ]) 03:24, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***<s>'''Accept:'''</s> Without attempting to prejudge the case, I find comments regarding Joefromrandb having not already changed his behaviour based on previous discussions and blocks a convincing enough reason to accept the case. Added to that in Joefromrandb's reply to NYB, IMHO, he does not adequately address how he will change his behaviour (and not just edit warring but also civility and a battleground approach) in a way which is different to what one would expect he would have already done from previous blocks & ANI threads. The discussion in the ANI thread TomStar81 closed demonstrates that reasonable attempts to resolve the issue have been attempted and that there is enough bad blood and uncertainty here that ArbCom's involvement is necessary. So, given also that the community after this time has been unable to resolve the issue is also relevant to my decision to accept the case.<p>I should also say, that the behaviour of the other editors who have been involved with Joefromrandb bears examination (that is, those one wouldn't call his supporters). It would be helpful to me, at least, if {{U|Joefromrandb}} and others might give us an idea of who those other editors might be (with evidence and short explanation). <b>]</b> (] • ] • ]) 10:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***@BMK: No I'm not asking Joe for a list of enemies, I'm asking him, along with the other editors, for a list of users who they believe should be parties with evidence. <b>]</b> (] • ] • ]) 07:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ****Based on Joe's comments above where he has demonstrated an awareness of the issues in his behaviour and a plan to avoid such behaviour in the future I was deciding between declining this request and suspending it by motion. Suspending a case like this will IMHO likely make things more complicated in the future (for Joe, other editors and future-ArbCom). Added to that a suspended case is not necessarily going to change or fix anything. Instead I'm going to vote to '''decline''' the case based on the assurances from Joe that he understands what is causing concerns in the community and that he has developed a viable plan to avoid such issues in the future. I would caution ] that it is very likely that if you repeat the behaviours which have been brought up here it's likely that a case will be opened and that, if you're blocked, administrators will be less likely to unblock you (if you're blocked). To use a cliche, the ball is in your court. <b>]</b> (] • ] • ]) 12:05, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Leaning towards accept, mostly per Ivanvector and MrX's statements, but will give Joefromrandb a chance to answer NYB's question in depth first. ] <sup>(]•]•]•])</sup> 02:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{re|Alex Shih}} Honestly, I had completely forgotten about all that, to the point where I had to Ctrl+F my username to figure out where I'd been on that page before. The last time I posted anything on his talk page was in 2013 and I had completely forgotten about my interactions there. Had I remembered those interactions or they been more recent than some years ago, I might be of a different opinion, but as it is I would consider myself impartial and uninvolved in this case. ] <sup>(]•]•]•])</sup> 03:36, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **'''Recuse''' per wonderfully reasoned and compelling request. ] <sup>(]•]•]•])</sup> 20:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * Recuse. ] (]) 00:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Accept:''' as the discussion boards are often polarised around this issue (civility), hence there will be a deadlock. Also examination often stops at cuss-words and edit-wars, while subtler problems such as gaming the sourcing and weighting go unnoticed. ] (] '''·''' ]) 10:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)</s> switch to '''decline''', mainly per OR....the discussion board was closed...as far as I can tell it was an afterthought from the closer rather than a huge kerfuffle. Note to all that revert wars do not have to be adjudicated on a strict 3RR rule, and advise people to check sourcing etc. ] (] '''·''' ]) 08:53, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''<s>Accept</s>''' ] ] 12:51, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*Also putting my accept on hold to consider Joe's response last night and other possible responses to it. ] ] 08:16, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **'''Decline''' per Callanecc, agreeing that the ball is now in Joe's court. ] ] 17:55, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''<s>Accept</s>''' -- ] (]) 13:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*Agree with {{u|Banedon}} re naming - suggest we name this and all future cases after either the editing area or the policy in question, and not use people's names. It helps avoid personalisation, and makes an easier future reference point for broad-brush remedies. Also worth knocking down this straw man now - this is not/should not be a case about swear-words; its a case examining the presence or otherwise of ]; if so whether it was provoked, and if so whether it will happen again. Lastly, if accepted, also suggest we shorten the case time to one week per phase. -- ] (]) 01:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::*{{yo|Opabinia regalis}} I agree we should decline a case about whether someone can say "fuck." We had massive and entirely fruitless debates about that away back in 2015; let's not do it all again. Rule of thumb - if you could do or say it in a standard real-world workplace, feel free to do or say it here (and plenty of people where I work swear in a collegiate manner every day). As above, this request is/should be about perceived "battleground" conduct and interpersonal hostility which may (or may not) be interfering with the productivity of other editors. It doesn't need detailed introspection - just a review of the edit histories of both sides, and a decision one way or the other. That's what I'm supporting anyway. If there's Arbitrators who want a "bad words" case, then you have my backing in urging them to go look elsewhere. -- ] (]) 06:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::*<small>*Moving to '''hold for a bit''' to think about . -- ] (]) 23:29, 24 October 2017 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::*{{yo|Ivanvector}} well said. Alas the "bad words" straw man comes up every time we have this discussion. This case request is clearly not about that. -- ] (]) 03:34, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*Per {{u|Nsk92}} its worthwhile giving an update in case anyone is wondering where this request has got to. | |||
| ::::::Theres a couple of options to deal with this via motion rather than the palaver of a full case. We're just seeing if there's enough support to justify formally proposing one of them here. A motion seems preferable given the evidence is pretty easily obtained from this case request and a couple of people's edit histories. It's also the path of least drama. But let's see how the discussion goes. | |||
| ::::::If we ''do'' end up with a full case, there's rough consensus that we would try to deliver it in half the usual time as suggested . That would be one week apiece for evidence, workshop and PD. -- ] (]) 13:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*We've spent so long discussing the case request that we could actually have done half a case. Anyway ... made some suggestions for ways to resolve this by motion but they didn't get support, so am likely to move back to "accept." But before we get there, {{u|Joefromrandb}}, will you agree to 1) make every effort respond to legitimate disagreements in a collegiate way, and 2) try not ] if you feel someone is acting from bad faith? No need for obsequiousness or avoiding "bad words" - just treat Misplaced Pages like a real-life workplace. Because the whole "rough diamond with a nuclear temper" thing is pretty unhelpful. -- ] (]) 00:00, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::*{{u|Joefromrandb}} seems unlikely to comment here further, and the case request itself seems stalled. So moving to '''decline''' to help put it out of its misery. Some passing comments: Joefromrandb, the "short fuse" excuse has worn thin; please stop disrupting Misplaced Pages through disproportionate hostility toward your fellow editors. No need for "obsequiousness" as you put it; just try assuming good faith when others disagree with edits you've made. Others interacting with Joefromrandb, no need to tiptoe around but please avoid incitements like templated warnings where a personal message would work better. And ''if'' there's anyone who thinks it's fun to annoy other en-WP editors in the hope of getting a reaction - seriously, you need a different hobby. In general re this request: we'd get along further if we avoided straw men like "bad words." No one cares if someone swears; what they ''should'' care about is if someone becomes so hard to work with that it gets in the way of developing good content. That was the open question before the Committee, not whether the phrase "fuck off" is inherently upsetting. -- ] (]) 04:57, 1 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Accept'''</s>--ah, a civility case: just what everyone was waiting for. It seems the community can't come up with a reasonably unified judgment on what to do, and while I don't think we're necessarily much better at it, this is our job.<p>I've posted on Joefromrandb's talk page, probably more often than the few times than I can remember; I consider myself uninvolved with him. If I remember correctly I criticized him once or twice for cussing (I know I live in a glass house) and more recently I have tried to, what's the word, express sympathy, or empathy, like I would with any editor whose good faith I assume and who finds himself in some kind of trouble. If my colleagues, or Joe, or perhaps others think I should recuse, feel free to discuss on the talk page.<p>One more thing: ArbCom has been accused of arbitrarily deciding on scope in order to shaft folks--obviously I don't agree with that. I am a big fan of being conservative in scope and thus of the scope being indicated (even if not nailed down) early on. Just putting that out there. ] (]) 18:07, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **I looked over every single linked dispute again (linked in the opening remarks), perhaps more carefully, and I wish I had looked as carefully the first time. I am convinced, really, that there is no there there. I do not see "mounting evidence" of the community being incapable of "solving" whatever the problem is besides the obvious but occasional "fuck off", and the occasional edit warring (which can be handled by a regular block). The community has been presented plenty of times with supposed evidence of Joe's incompatibility with the community, and has always soundly rejected an indefinite block. So, I'm taking back my "accept". If Joe cusses too much in the wrong place, ask or tell him to stop or block him, and then move along. If he edit wars, block him, just like should be done when you or I do it. If he's being a dick on his own talk page after he's blocked, well. This is not to say he's not occasionally problematic, but hey, glass houses, and this isn't anything the project cannot handle. BTW let me just note also that once or twice NOTHERE was brought up in those linked threads, and that also was always rejected. No, '''don't accept'''. ] (]) 03:09, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Accept''', but I think we need to have a scope broad enough to consider how the community interprets NPA, and not necessarily just in this specific instance. ''']''' (]) 18:56, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Accept''', though I'd encourage people to present somewhat broader context rather than focusing on the "fuck off" incident(s) during the rest of the case phases. There does seem to be enough here to warrant a case, but I'm hoping the case will amount to more than just pages of discussion about whether (and under what circumstances) it's okay to tell another person to fuck off on Misplaced Pages. ] <small>]</small> 23:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Unpopular minority opinion, apparently, but I am solidly a '''decline''' on this one. For one thing, while I am all for encouraging people to rethink their decisions and change their minds, I kinda think that once you've blessed an ANI thread with one of those annoying purple close boxes, you have to live with the result for more than... what was it, two days? We can't say "the community has exhausted its options" when nothing actually happened in those two days to warrant escalation other than the closer getting cold feet. A system that works on amorphous "consensus" of self-selected participants and explicitly rejects binding precedent may not always be the most predictable, but we can do what we can to smooth over the gaps, and this is just too much like jerking someone around. {{parabr}} As for the "civility" question more broadly, I've made this argument before, and apparently it's about as popular as declining this case, but... anyone who posts a civility warning template on an established editor's talk page and then crows about how civil they've been in the face of rudeness from the template-recipient ''is being really fucking uncivil''. We tend to have a view of civility as basically "white-collar office politesse", where it's unacceptable to say "fuck off" but perfectly fine to say "please observe ] (note that I've conveniently linked to it, in case you're unfamiliar with the concept), and please be aware that I'm simply trying to make sure our policies are enforced".... which is, you know, a long bureaucratese-y way of saying "fuck off". This is stupid. If I were feeling just a little more rouge-y I'd take <del>]</del> sorry, I mean ] and similar straight to TfD. (No, how about just deleting it with "fuck off" as the reason? Wait, actually I'd like to encourage more creative uses of <del>]</del> ] in response to this kind of behavior...) {{parabr}} Joe, next time you think you're right and someone else is being a jerk, write whatever you were going to post on-wiki in a text file instead, or maybe in a vent email to a friend, or even, if you must, in an edit window, but ''wait till tomorrow'' to decide if it's really worth posting. I've saved myself so many snarky comments that way. Everyone else, this pointless drama-escalation is a common community antipattern that really needs a fresh approach. In the tradition of '']'', if you see someone saying, I dunno, "You stupid fucker, don't you know you made a fucking typo in your last shitty edit??" - Goofus posts civility templates, makes ANI threads, gasps in horror over how the project is doomed if we can't stop such rudeness, and virtue-signals about how terribly polite and policy-abiding he himself obviously is. Gallant says "Oh, you're right, I fixed it now" and moves on because he's writing an encyclopedia and has better things to do than worry about someone else's language <small>and also because it's really fun to ''know'' someone is trying to rile you up and choose not to react, but eh, that doesn't fit the character type ;)</small> ] (]) 05:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **Damn you OR those are some really decent arguments. Hmm. Need more coffee. ] (]) 00:12, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***Here you go: ☕ :) ] (]) 09:04, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ****Thanks ]--it worked. ] (]) 14:24, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{u|Joefromrandb}}, thanks for your response. Sorry for the slow reaction time; life came up. I think you are on the right track in your post, but echoing NYB, what assurances can you give us that this problem will be under better control in the future? The trouble with "baiting" as a defense is that very often people don't mean to do it, or don't realize that that's what they're doing. (Someone wrote all those civility templates, after all, so obviously some people honestly think they're useful. No doubt they would react gracefully upon receiving one and would immediately acknowledge the error that prompted the warning. No doubt.) This community is too big and too diverse for each individual to have their own personal requirements about how criticisms should be phrased or how others should approach them in a disagreement. It's necessary to be able to put with a bit of baiting. ] (]) 09:04, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{u|Ihardlythinkso}}, you're not wrong; a better way to put it might be "what ''specifically'' are you going to do differently?" It's very easy for me to tell you that I'm ''not'' going to eat the candy in the kitchen at work, no sir, not me! But you probably shouldn't believe me if I plan to rely solely on my own willpower. "I'll put it in the cupboard" or "I'll get my coworker to smack me every time she sees me go for it" or "I'll let myself eat exactly one piece at exactly 4:30pm" are actual plans, "I'll stop, I swear" isn't. This isn't just about Joe, although he's the subject of this particular issue; everyone who knows they have a trigger for bad behavior should make an actual plan to avoid the behavior, even if it's as simple as "countervandalism drives me nuts so I'll write articles instead". ] (]) 17:47, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{u|WJBScribe}} Thanks for doing the homework I didn't :) I had no idea that was such a recent invention! ] (]) 06:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Very '''reluctant accept''' First, I will second OR's first paragraph, that the closure of the ANI thread and subsequent filing of an Arb case is definitely not unheard of, but doing so while placing a restriction, from what I know is rare if not unheard of. I'm especially concerned about the when the community can review it clause, and this post filing (not that I even understand that restriction or it's reasons). | |||
| :That said, I disagree with the thought behind OR's third paragraph where Joe needs to just rant in an off-wiki form. He's had a few years to figure that one out, if not knowing it already, and yet we are still here. This seems to be resolving the "that the community can't solve" aspect. | |||
| :The reason why this case needs to be heard is there is a lot here that isn't to be taken at face value, such as the number Tom's links to the ANI threads (One doesn't link properly, one is to a very short thread, another is to his own recent ANI closure) as being an indicator of an issue or the special restriction on closure of the ANI thread. At the same time, Joe's reply to NYB seems to indicate that he's learned from his mistakes, yet we are somehow still here. I'm not putting wrongdoing blame on anyone yet, all I'm saying is this needs to be looked into before we can have a legitimate view of what's going on. | |||
| :I will agree with my colleagues who state they don't want a case about the use of the word "fuck" or the similar. What would <u>need to</u> be established is that there is a pattern of behavioral issues that make it hard or difficult for the community to continue on a day to day basis. -- ] <small>]</small> 08:55, 24 October 2017 (UTC) <small>Post edit 10:34, 24 October 2017 (UTC)</small> | |||
| == Conduct at Reference Desks == | == Conduct at Reference Desks == | ||
Revision as of 00:21, 8 November 2017
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Requests for arbitration
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| Request name | Motions | Initiated | Votes |
|---|---|---|---|
| Conduct at Reference Desks | 30 October 2017 | 0/9/0 | |
| Crosswiki issues | Motions | 31 October 2017 | 2/1/0 |
| Nathan B. Forrest | 6 November 2017 | 0/6/0 |
| Case name | Links | Evidence due | Prop. Dec. due |
|---|---|---|---|
| Palestine-Israel articles 5 | (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) | 21 Dec 2024 | 11 Jan 2025 |
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| Arbitrator workflow motions | 1 December 2024 |
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About this page Use this page to request the committee open an arbitration case. To be accepted, an arbitration request needs 4 net votes to "accept" (or a majority). Arbitration is a last resort. WP:DR lists the other, escalating processes that should be used before arbitration. The committee will decline premature requests. Requests may be referred to as "case requests" or "RFARs"; once opened, they become "cases". Before requesting arbitration, read the arbitration guide to case requests. Then click the button below. Complete the instructions quickly; requests incomplete for over an hour may be removed. Consider preparing the request in your userspace. To request enforcement of an existing arbitration ruling, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. To clarify or change an existing arbitration ruling, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment.
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lists.wikimedia.org. In your request, you should briefly (in 1-2 sentences) include (a) why you need additional words and (b) a broad outline of what you hope to discuss in your extended submission. The Committee endeavors to act upon extension requests promptly and aims to offer flexibility where warranted.
Conduct at Reference Desks
Initiated by Robert McClenon (talk) at 19:38, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Involved parties
- Robert McClenon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
- Fram (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- StuRat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Medeis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Guy Macon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Beyond My Ken (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AFram&type=revision&diff=807907742&oldid=807049782
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)&oldid=807759840
Statement by Robert McClenon
I request the Arbitration Committee to open a case concerning conduct at the Reference Desks. I propose that this case may take either of two forms. First, the Arbitration Committee may, by motion, impose ArbCom discretionary sanctions on the Reference Desks, permitting administrators to take quick action against disruptive editors. Second, the Arbitration Committee may conduct a full inquiry to identify editors who have been persistently disruptive at the Reference Desks and impose appropriate sanctions.
I am not primarily seeking to show conduct violations by any particular user, and so will not be providing a long list of diffs. The Reference Desks have been troubled for a very long time. On 30 October 2017, as shown below, WP:ANI is mostly about the Reference Desks: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=807878925 See in particular this open dispute on whether to topic-ban User:StuRat: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=807878925#StuRat.27s_behaviour_on_the_Reference_Desks_.28again.29 and this closed dispute between User:Guy Macon and User:Medeis: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=807878925#Medeis_.2F_.CE.BC.CE.B7.CE.B4.CE.B5.CE.AF.CF.82_violating_WP:TPOC_again
Also see this thread at the Village Pump concerning a proposal by User:Fram to close the Reference Desks. This proposal will probably be closed with a consensus against closing the Reference Desks, but illustrates the intensity of the hostility at the Reference Desks. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)&oldid=807759840
There have been suggestions that the Reference Desks need to be “reformed”, either by moderation (which is not consistent with standard practice in the English Misplaced Pages), or with something unspecified, or with ArbCom discretionary sanctions.
If the ArbCom does not want to open a full evidentiary case, I ask that the ArbCom at least impose discretionary sanctions by motion. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:38, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
User:ApLundell - Perhaps I should not have named specific users, but, as you noted, the format of a request involves naming parties. If the ArbCom takes the first approach, simply putting ArbCom discretionary sanctions into effect, it doesn't need to consider individual users, and can let Arbitration Enforcement work out the details. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Fram
This seems premature. The RfC about the refdesks is ongoing, and while it may have no consensus for the original proposal, it is quite obvious that the refdesks currently face some serious issues and that a change is needed; if things don't change and we are again at the same situation in a year or so, it may be time to escalate this here, but not yet. The discussion about StuRat will probably yield some results (sanctions or voluntary changes), the discussion about Medeis will end in no consensus or consensus not to apply any sanctions. The only problem is perhaps the current series of proposals, AN and ANI sections, ... by Guy Macon which way too often are ill-thought out and have to be withdrawn or closed as having no consensus at the best. But these aren't restricted to situations at the refdesk, so don't fall fairly within the scope of this arbcom request. And, more importantly, no reall attempt to address this directly with Guy Macon (I think) or at a general level (AN or ANI) has been done yet, so this specific problem isn't ripe for ArbCom yet. Fram (talk) 07:50, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Having argued to decline this, I am now starting to wonder if instead some specific case about Wnt isn't needed instead, as they still don't seem to get the issues with the Ref Desk. Answers like this (from 31 October, so after this case request and way after the problems with the RefDesk and BLP were being discussed) is not acceptable anywhere on enwiki, and someone who has been around as long as Wnt should certainly know this. But that's something that the administrator's noticeboard should be able to handle. Fram (talk) 07:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by StuRat
This seems like quite the overreaction. They've already taken this way too far, in a (failed) proposal to shut down the Ref Desk, and now they want to escalate it even further. Everyone needs to just relax. The Ref Desk does a lot of good, and if there are occasional problems there, the same is true everywhere else. We don't need to escalate this any further.
Statement by Medeis
There is no "dispute" between me and Guy Macon, and McClenon has provided no evidence of my fighting with or attacking this editor whatsoever. There are several ANI threads started by Guy Macon against me which have been closed, and then the last snow-closed. I have not filed counter complaints, or conducted a vendetta against him. I have not edit warred with him or interacted with him in any way except very minimally as necessary to counter the charges he has brought.
I find the vague allusion to "provokable" editors without diffs (i.e., there's a crime 'somewhere', you go find the evidence) baseless and defamatory whomever it is aimed at, including if the target is Guy Macon, and a reason to close this matter as unfounded. I find this request for arbitration tendentious, I resent its ambulance chasing nature, and I am not a party to it. I can file my own reports if I need to; I do not need to and have not filed any report. If I have been mentioned to elicit testimony against other editors I flatly refuse to participate in such a witch hunt.
I will not be watching this page. I do not wish to be hounded any further. I will not respond to the comments of any party or the petitioner. If a member of the arbcom needs my input they can contact me on my talk page, otherwise, please count me out. μηδείς (talk) 20:29, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon pointed out on my talk page that "provokable" was from another thread, I have stricken it, but the same point still holds.
- While looking at my talk page, I found this from Aug 16, which I had forgotten; https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Medeis#August_2016. Guy Macon accuses me of wrongdoing at the ref desk, then admits he posted a problematic question in order to garner "exactly the reaction I was hoping for". After I delete the trolling, Guy Macon puts a warning on my talk page. User:Newyorkbrad says "I construe Guy Macon's conduct as disruptive point-making". User:Jayron32 says "Trolling is trolling whether or not it is done by a noob, a blocked user, or a long-time regular" and "Medeis did nothing wrong except to take out the trash, and got "warned" and "threatened" with an ANI thread for it. Unacceptable."
- Then of course there's this thread, linked to above which User:Beyond My Ken calls Just part of Guy Macon's ongoing crusade.
- Then there's this "straw poll" to ban me, by Guy Macon from two weeks ago.
- There's more, but it's bedtime, I will revisit this tomorrow. In any case, it should again be clear that there's no "dispute" on my part. μηδείς (talk) 03:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
- Given the consensus below is overwhelmingly decline, I am not going to look for further diffs at this point, and it's Halloween! I have candy to distribute. μηδείς (talk) 18:01, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Guy Macon
I would encourage Arbcom to take this case. In the following discussions, a large number of experienced editors have expressed the opinion that the reference desks have a problem, but there is little agreement about what the problem is and about what the solution should be.
- Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Refdesk reform RFC
- Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Should the Reference Desks be closed?
- Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Downgrade Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Guidelines?
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive956#Problematic behavior by User:Medeis at the reference desk
- Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/Archive 129#Straw poll: Topic ban for Medeis / μηδείς
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Proposal: Topic ban for Medeis / μηδείς
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Medeis / μηδείς violating WP:TPOC again
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive283#Proposed sanctions against StuRat
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#StuRat's behaviour on the Reference Desks (again)
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive841#Baseball Bugs disruptive behaviour on the Reference Desks
--Guy Macon (talk) 21:06, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken
Please remove my name from the list of parties, as commenting on the noticeboards about Guy Macon's propensity to attempt to get people sanctioned for "misbehavior" at the Ref Desks is not sufficient to make me a party to a case about the Ref Desks. I've never posted anything at the Ref Desks, and never intend to. In my opinion, the Ref Desks should be closed down. In my opinion, Guy Macon should be topic banned from trying to get people sanctioned. If having opinions is sufficient to make one a party to a case, every case request would have dozens and dozens of parties. In any event, this particular case request could do with one less, me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:06, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Euryalus: Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:24, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Iridescent
The disagreements between Medeis and Guy Macon are just that, and not rising to the level of disruption, although per my comments there I do wish Guy would discuss things elsewhere rather than keep bringing it to ANI. The other issue regarding StuRat is being handled perfectly well at present (permalink), and is a rare example of an ANI discussion actually working well, in that multiple people have given their views on what the perceived issue is (or that there isn't an issue) and now it's become obvious that there's a general consensus that there's a problem proposals are now being discussed as to how to address them without resorting to sanctions. Despite all the current threads, the toxic atmosphere at the Reference Desk isn't a natural state but the result of a few people being over-exuberant and a general unwillingness to follow the existing Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Guidelines, and now it's been made obvious that many people consider what's currently going on there inappropriate its regulars will hopefully cut down the chatter and bickering of their own accord. While this may end up at Arbcom at some point, that time shouldn't be now; please decline, or at least defer for a couple of months (it can be a lovely welcome gift for the incoming committee), to see if community discussion and if necessary community sanctions can work. ‑ Iridescent 20:44, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Disclaimer: I'm probably vaguely involved by Arbcom's definition as I've commented fairly extensively in the assorted threads and wrote some potential draft wordings for a potential community sanction, although I have no involvement in any of the reference desks or anything to do with their administration. ‑ Iridescent 20:55, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Boing! said Zebedee
The community is still in the process of trying to deal with it and is making some surprisingly positive progress, so I really don't think it's within ArbCom's remit yet. I recommend declining the request. Boing! said Zebedee (talk)
Statement by EEng
Goddam it, can people stop running to Arbcom at the drop of a hat? Let the ANI thread on StuRat run its course. Hopefully that will be the thin edge of the RefDesk wedge. Arbcom has enough to do, and this is premature. EEng 23:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by APLundell
While I admit I'm curious what the ArbCom thinks about the state of the RefDeks, I don't understand this request for arbitration. Why are specific editors called out? That doesn't seem to have been made clear. Is it simply because ArbCom protocols require a dispute between users, and that a dispute against the reference desks themselves are outside of ArbCom's purview?
I agree that there are issues that are not going to sort themselves out. In fact I believe that over time the RefDesks are getting less useful while getting more disruptive. (As much because of changes in the Internet landscape as changes on wiki.)
However I don't at all support framing that issue as a problem with certain specific users. ApLundell (talk) 23:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Tigraan
I may be considered involved in this since (1) I have become a RefDesk regular, though with comparatively short tenure and (2) I have taken part to a couple (two, I think, but did not check) of the threads that Guy Macon linked to.
In the event this case gets accepted, scope is crucial. There are clearly two things going on on the RefDesk: a few problematic editors, who may or may not deserve sanctions, and a general atmosphere where the rules (WP:RDG) are, to say the least, enforced with little zeal, not to mention that maybe some additional rules are needed (but is it ArbCom's role to make them up?).
The individual problems are (as far as I can see from the threads provided) either stale or under active discussion at ANI, hence not really ArbCom material. The general atmosphere may warrant a structured discussion, but:
- Discussing in a structured forum is nice, but at the end some decision must be made. All decisions with real impact I can imagine are outside the realm of possibilities (nuking the RefDesks is politically impossible after the matter was put to a VPP thread, individual sanctions are (I guess?) not going to happen with a restricted scope, and ArbCom cannot force unwilling admins to monitor the RefDesks). I would say the case should only be accepted if there is an imaginable set of evidence leading to a plausible decision with nonzero impact, otherwise it is just a loss of time.
- Per Iridescent's "it is urgent to wait" statement, there is hope that recent developments will kick in and force self-regulation. (Whether that hope materializes or not will probably be seen within the next month, so I do not think the can must be kicked very far down the road.)
Tigraan 23:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Legacypac
Admin User:Graeme Bartlett needs to be added to this case as a responding party. He is abusively reversing closes of off topic threads without proper justification. Attempts to discuss his reverts on his talk were ignored but only later did I find he posted on a ref desk talk page. . There is a culture of “anything goes” chat it up, post wild speculation craziness going on at RefDesk and enough users and Admins happy to participate in the policy violating nonsense that they revert any attempt to bring a little sanity. Legacypac (talk) 02:03, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Softlavender
No clear indication has been provided by the filer that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried. Perhaps the filer does not know how to properly link threads, and/or perhaps they do not understand that "Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried" means that multiple other steps in dispute resolution should have been tried, completed, and then given time to assess their efficacy. Either way, since the most basic criterion for ArbCom acceptance has not been demonstrated to have been met, I urge the committee to decline this case. Softlavender (talk) 02:17, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Johnuniq
Inspired by Mr rnddude's post at WP:AN dated 00:12, 31 October 2017, here are some of the threads that have been deleted from the refdesks in recent weeks.
- Which billionaires are involved in Congo mining?
- Why do schoolgirls wear short skirts in spite of their sex appeal?
- Money Making Ideas Online from Home?
- Predictions about nuclear war in 2019
- How much cleaning would make it safe to lick a rock dipped in diarrhea?
- How long could a person survive if they ate nothing but salmon?
- How could you safely burn your fluff (fart) with a blowtorch?
My prediction is that Arbcom will decline this case, but I thought people might like to see how easy it is to troll the refdesk regulars. Johnuniq (talk) 03:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Kudpung
I am not a ref desk regular, indeed, until the RfC was begun here I had never been there until I did some research for my vote/comments at the RfC. There has been an unexpected build up of discussion on my talk page in these threads: , , and . My opinions on the future of the Ref Desk are irrelevant to this Arbcom case but the discussions may add some additional background which the Committee may wish to review. That said, I believe these issues are currently being adequately discussed in their respective venues for the time being, and that an Arbcom case would be premature. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:10, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Graeme Bartlett
Responding to user:Legacypac. My reverts of closures do not directly relate to this case, but since I am invited to comment I will add some text here. A number of questions and answers were closed with archive top by user:Legacypac in which several opinions about the questions were included as closing rationales. This is not the normal way to stop discussions on reference desks. Instead the standard procedure is to totally redact inappropriate questions (trolls, adverts, attacks), or to put in a text statement responding to the question to say it should not be answered or why not. Hatting has proved controversial in the past. Some of the closed off questions were in fact quite answerable, and the given reasons for closure were not consensus reasons to stop a line of questions and answers on the reference desks. My actions I considered were the R part of WP:BRD. Legacypac took a bold step of closing some question. I reverted the closure. And then started a discussion on the talk page for the reference desk WT:RD, the standard place to discuss controversies. There is no attempt to abuse Legacypac. Legacypac may have an opinion on use of reference desks, but it is not the only authority which is determined by consensus discussion. I did not respond to Legacypac at AN/I because the thread was closed: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Medeis_.2F_.CE.BC.CE.B7.CE.B4.CE.B5.CE.AF.CF.82_violating_WP:TPOC_again I do not think that this needs to be handled by arbcom yet. There are perfectly good discussions going on about how to control the problems. There are some people that have reacted strongly, but nothing that is abnormal enough or uncontrollable enough to need Arbcom intervention. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:27, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Mendaliv
I would respectfully advise the Committee to decline this case request at this time. There is no specific misconduct or specific individuals engaged in misconduct that have been suggested in the complaint. Rather, the complaint appears to claim that there is some misconduct by malfeasant editors that is the cause behind the well-known toxicity of the reference desks. While it is not necessary to fully plead and prove a case at the request stage, the complaint must go beyond alleging generalized and nonspecific grievances and asking the Committee to investigate further, or to authorize further investigation. Whether we consider arbitration adversarial or inquisitorial, it is still an adjudicative process, and is not itself an investigator of facts. I would further argue that until the pending threads regarding the future of the RD and some RD participants are decided, it would be inappropriate for arbitration to commence because there is no indication that those lesser processes have, in fact, failed.
Statement by Jayron32
I rarely comment on these matters unless directly questioned. I only wish to make a brief statement to note that there are currently two threads, one at VPP and one at ANI, which directly deal with this and that the community is working through those without ArbCom help. I don't see where ArbCom is needed to help with anything, given that it's being handled without them so far. --Jayron32 10:36, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by GreenMeansGo
I'm... probably just going to rock the boat here to no avail, but... The ref desk has spilled over into the rest of the project many, many times, to the point where the only terribly relevant link is this one, and it's not limited to the current open disputes, or the currently involved users. Given the history, I see no reason to think the current discussions will resolve anything, and no reason to think we won't be having them again in six months or a year, and then six months or a year thereafter for the foreseeable future.
The community is uniquely poorly equipped to deal with these issues, and things predictably devolve into two camps: ref desk regulars, and everyone else who, for the most part, forget the ref desks exist until these discussions crop up. It's a recipe for no-consensus and no action. The two camps for the most part apply fundamentally different standards for user conduct, because the ref desk for the most part applies fundamentally different standards for user conduct. I don't know what the solution is, but I can say with some confidence that no permanent solution is likely to arise from noticeboard discussions. GMG 10:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Ivanvector
FWIW I don't believe I've ever edited at the refdesks or even really looked at them; I'm mostly only aware of them from when someone's conduct at the refdesks comes up at ANI. I suggest the Committee decline this case, as there simply isn't scope for a case here. If there are particular users whose conduct is a recurring problem, the community has topic bans at its disposal, and I see no sign that we're unwilling nor unable to manage that sort of disruption (okay, maybe "unwilling" is more apt). If this is a way to get Arbcom to rule on the validity (and/or closure) of the refdesks, it's completely out of Arbcom's sphere and deserves a full-blown RfC. Ivanvector (/Edits) 12:21, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Hipocrite
In 2006/2007 myself and others attempted to get the Ref Desk to act like Reference Desks - people would ask questions and they would be referred to references that had answers for them. This was rejected by the "Ref Desk community," of people who like to crack jokes and not help people trying to find information. I wish ArbCom the best of luck in solving the problem. Perhaps Misplaced Pages has change in the last decade. I doubt it, though. Good reference work, terrible place to contribute content. Hipocrite (talk) 19:13, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlish
Taking this case is reasonable. There is clearly a problem here, and the community has failed to resolve it. I think DS would probably work, and would thus forestall a renewed effort to get rid of the RD entirely. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ< 19:08, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Davey2010
If the Ref Desks aren't closed then it would make sense to impose sanctions - I'll keep it short but the ref desks have turned in to a troll playpen and so blocking them all with a click of a button is IMHO the best solution so personally I would suggest Arbcom accepts this case,
If on the other hand the Ref Desks are closed then this should be declined .... kinda stating the obvious eh.. –Davey2010 03:16, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Wnt
A range of bad ideas to abolish the Refdesks or "reform" them to death have been fended off by healthy margins. ArbCom should not be used to ram through something we don't want nor need. The biggest problem on the Refdesks is people claiming there's a problem with them. There's nothing wrong with their purpose and nothing wrong with free-ranging discussion with the general encyclopedic intent of answering specific questions. There is far less irrelevancy thrown in than there is in most of the Misplaced Pages "drama boards", and we are hearing no proposals to close those down. Any heavy-handed administrative regime would be far more disruptive to editing (especially off-Refdesk editing) than the Refdesks' internal squabbles are now. Wnt (talk) 00:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@Fram: does the lodging of a case request or deletion proposal change how BLP is interpreted? As for the interpretation of BLP itself, I hope it does not prohibit offering a sourced reason why it might be hard to prove someone guilty of a crime with which they have not been charged. Wnt (talk) 00:35, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Count Iblis
The Ref Desks should not be closed, and threats to impose sanctions in case ArbCom does not accept the case (as seems likely) should be dropped. If there is a problematic conduct there then that can obviously always be addressed, and ArbCom would accept a case if there were a persistent problem there. The reason why some people have problems with the Ref Desks is that the way it works is in principle via a discussion-like format, so it should be considered to be a sort of a talk page, not a regular Misplaced Pages-article page. So, what goes on there should be judged according to the same standards that apply to conduct on talk pages.
One can also reason as follows. Suppose that ArbCom decides that the Ref Desk should be closed down. Or this decision is taken by Admins. Then nothing would stop me from creating a Ref Desk hosted on my talk page, or on my sandbox page. Count Iblis (talk) 00:51, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by {Non-party}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Conduct at Reference Desks: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/9/0>-Conduct_at_Reference_Desks-2017-10-31T07:35:00.000Z">
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)
- Leaning decline unless someone can show me some specific conduct by an editor or editors that is stymieing the ongoing conversation. For something as substantial as the reference desk, there will need to be some detailed (and structured) discussion to gain consensus. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:35, 31 October 2017 (UTC)"> ">
- Decline, per Iridescent. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:58, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Beyond My Ken: Noted, in the unlikely event the case is supported I'm not seeing anything so far that would make you a party to it. -- Euryalus (talk) 05:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- Provisional Decline At this point it seems the community is still hammering out issues, and is willing to continue to do so. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 13:34, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
- Decline unless something new and compelling comes up, which seems unlikely. Doug Weller talk 17:07, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
- Decline at this time. This is not an opportune time for us to consider taking a case about the reference desks, because they are being discussed now in other forums. There is no guarantee that the problems, or alleged problems, will be resolved by those discussions, but it can't hurt to try. With regard to the suggestion of discretionary sanctions for the reference desks, imposed either by us or by the community, I am hesitant because I am unsure that administrators would agree on some of the specific standards (beyond the obvious ones) they would be seeking to enforce. I also do not agree with the comment above that ref desk disputes have spilled over into the rest of the project many times. If that were true, I would probably want to accept the case, but it appears what he means is that ref desk disputes have spilled over many times onto the noticeboards—which is not the same thing, although of course it isn't desirable. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:16, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
- Note: In my 11 years on the project, I've occasionally expressed irritation with several of the reference desk regulars over one thing or another, including one instance noted above. I have no biases on the ref desk issues or for or against any of the editors, and I don't think my sporadic comments rise to the level of warranting recusal, but if anyone disagrees, please feel free to speak up; I would never hold doing so against an editor in any way. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:16, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
- Decline. This seems premature to me also. There are current, ongoing community discussions on this subject that seem to be making progress. I do think the Reference Desks are increasingly in danger of finding themselves in Esperanza territory - i.e. their internal squabbles interrupt people doing real work to the point where someone eventually loses patience with unfulfilled promises of "reform" and MfD's the whole thing - and the regulars shouldn't take declining this case as a sign that their project is in good shape. But I don't think we need an arbcom case to handle this. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:47, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- Decline per my colleagues' comments above. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:22, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
- Decline for now, with a special ice cream dessert for Johnuniq, who should set up a table at the county fair. Drmies (talk) 00:32, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- Decline as premature. No need for us to barge in while discussions are ongoing elsewhere. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Decline we may not be needed here . DGG ( talk ) 04:07, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Crosswiki issues
Initiated by Fram (talk) at 14:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Involved parties
- Fram (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
- Ymblanter (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
- Section at AN (link is to closing of section to show final situation]
- User talk:Ymblanter#Please retract some statements
Statement by Fram
Yesterday, I noticed a Wikidata Bot when discussing a statement about Wikidata here (where I also discussed two other Wikidata bots]. I then researched this bot a bit further, and posted my conclusions here: a new user created a spambot, using his own site as a reference, to get it into Wikidata (and into enwiki). I noted this as an example of the problems we face with Wikidata, where other policies and culture apply than here; we struggle with spam as well, but the BAG would never approve such a bot without questions asked, with only three test edits, without an editor history, without checking the reference used...
The editor who gave the bot its botflag is User:Ymblanter, an admin on enwiki and an admin and bureaucrat (one of three) on Wikidata. They reacted vehemently to my indication of his role in this, first at Misplaced Pages talk:Wikidata/2017 State of affairs#An example of how Wikidata works and less than 15 minutes later, before I even had responded to his first posts in that discussion at WP:AN, in a section which had nothing to do with Ymblanter or the edits under discussion.
They claimed there that my post about the bot and his role in it "goes in the direction of stalking" and that I "should be topic-banned on mentioning Wikidata.". Another editor replied that "that one individually seems reasonable and raises a serious concern about Wikidata" and "it doesn't seem unreasonable to have raised it on this project."
From there on, things escalated, with Ymblanter in their next edit claiming that I made a "fucking lie" to "the audience which is not familiar with the subject?" (it was on a page dedicated to scrutinizing the use of Wikidata on enwiki, not some unrelated page filled with newbies). I asked them here (and multiple times afterwards) to retract the claims he made or to provide evidence for them, all to no avail (he presented one quote I made as if one quote about one event can be turned into stalking somehow). Further replies by Ymblanter at AN stated "you apparently unable to write about Wikidata without breaking English Misplaced Pages policies". His parting shot at AN was "this one, to be honest, reminds me "Pls remind me why I should care about your opinion", after which one user was indefblocked". This has a rather chilling effect, an admin commparing comments I made with comments he was reminded off which ended in an indefblock.
Seeing that nothing good would come of further discussion at that time, when Ymblanter was clearly upset, I waited until the next day to discuss his statements further. User talk:Ymblanter#Please retract some statements, which was mainly fruitless. They eventually admitted that "After reading Stalking, may be indeed you actions are not yet to that level." May be, not yet? No retraction of the claims that I told "fucking lies" to an audience unfamiliar with the sitation, that I needed to be topic banned, and that my comments reminded him of another situation where another editor endd up indef blocked. Instead, they simply removed the whole section at AN with the edit summary "Fram insists they have right to throw mud at me, but I must "retract" my response; fine, let him continue to throw the mud, this exchange is not so much important to be in archives", which is just adding more personal attacks while removing the previous ones. Meanwhile, at Wikidata, they start blackening my name at the Project chat, section "Bots": "This was discovered at the English Misplaced Pages by an opponent of Wikidata, and quickly escalated in a serious of personal attacks against me", but where they otherwise continue to defend the bot they approved as making good edits.
All this results in an enwiki admin I can't trust to be level-headed, able to defuse situations, or able to handle criticism, who seems to lack the basic knowledge of some core policies (what are personal attacks? what is stalking?) or how and where to present a case if you do want a sanction against someone. An admin who sees fit to make chilling statements about indef blocking and who sees no problem in editors spamming their commercial website to Wikidata and enwiki, and even facilitating it. Whether this just needs an admonishment or a full desysop is up to ArbCom to decide, and their position at Wikidata is out of scope anyway (and it is unlikely that they would have a problem with their actions over there anyway). Fram (talk) 14:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Ok, you can now add "contacting an editor utterly unrelated to the current situation but with a known history with me" to the list of admin-unworthy actions (in their statement below). Fram (talk) 15:25, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ymblanter: Apparently a new editor adding links to their own commercial site (still in beta, with no history of trustworthiness, ...) is not spamming then? This is just standard acceptable behaviour which presumably would be approved at enwiki as well? Never heard of WP:REFSPAM? That the end result of their edits was that we get the exact same data at e.g. 2017 J1 League but that in their version the link to the official website is replaced with a link to their site, is not spamming? That the spam links afterwards changed to even worse spam links (directly to their cryptocurrency-selling page) doesn't mean that the original bot wasn't a spambot and the editor a spammer (who is using his "partnership" with Wikidata as a selling proposition on his website!). Fram (talk) 16:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@InvanVector: see my reply to Ymblanter. "Valid info" from a commercial site in beta, without any history of factchecking, accuracy, ..., is spamming a website. Allowing a brand-new editor to do this based on three example edits and without further limitations, questions, ... is bad, still defending this after it has been pointed out is the worrying aspect though. Fram (talk) 16:25, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Alex Shih: while every aspect deserves scrutiny, I don't see how this one aspect decides whether we have a case or not. The defense of spambots is one aspect only, the accusations of stalking and so on are at least equally important (and e.g. the canvassing in this very arbcom case by pinging LauraHale). An admin with such a tenuous grasp of so many basic and varied policies, an admin who wants actions against another editor based on absolutely nothing, goes beyond "was the bot spamming from the start, or was he spamming terribly from the start"? If you allow editors with zero history at any wiki to start a bot to link to their own website, should you then really be surprised if it turns out to be a problem from the start and a much bigger problem later on? Pretending, as Ymblanter and other bureaucrats and admins at Wikidata still do, that this issue could have happened here as well, shows a complete misunderstanding of the bot approval process here. Perhaps we should contact some BAG members to give their view on this. Fram (talk) 16:31, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Alex Shih; I agree with your last point of your post at 16:55, 31 October 2017, and should not have made that sarcastic remark. Fram (talk) 17:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ymblanter: I have struck out my incorrect statement above, it were two other admins who said that it could have happend on the wikiprojects as well, not you. (See here for where this happened) Fram (talk) 17:21, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
About the case name: I specifically did not choose "Ymblanter" because there has been a push against cases named after editors, which would supposedly prejudge the outcome. Perhaps the current name isn't good enough, feel free to suggest something better. Fram (talk) 05:59, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
@Ymblanter: I can not "continue" doing things I haven't done yet. Furthermore, what part of this is wrong? if your statement here was not intended to defend the Wikidata infobox version, then what exactly was your intention with that statement? When it has been made very clear that the things that get reverted are not improvements at all, to then state out of the blue "Reverting improvements is vandalism." is either adding a completely unconstructive, unconnected policy summary which doesn't help the discussion one bit but just adds noise, or a defense of these "improvements" and the infobox under discussion. Apparently I was wrong to assume that your comment would actually have some point to it, and instead you claim that I should AGF that it was just an utterly pointless thought that popped into your mind and you felt the need to share with the world there and then, even if it had no bearing on the actual discussion. I'll let the character assassination in the remainder of your reply for what's it worth, as it seems no one who commented here but you so far has read this ArbCom request as "a blanket, aggressive assumption of bad faith" instead of what it is, a fact-based assumption of either general incompetence or of temporary incompetence when your own actions and/or Wikidata are concerned. Fram (talk) 11:02, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
@Mike Peel. All very nice, but can you perhaps provide some evidence for your claims? Otherwise it is just some unfounded opinion by someone who just happens to be aligned with Ymblanter and against me on most things regarding Wikidata on enwiki, and should probably be disregarded by the ArbCom as a case of sour grapes from someone who just lost an RfC I initiated (but still wants to keep his template which has just been rejected). Fram (talk) 08:45, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@Mike Peel. You mean Wikipedia_talk:Wikidata/2017_State_of_affairs#Relevant_discussion_at_Portuguese_wikipedia? You really believe anything in there is ArbCom-material? I invite all ArbCom members to read that discussion and point anything truly problematic they can find in it. Or else to urge Mike Peel to come up with something somewhat more convincing. Fram (talk) 09:14, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@ChristianKI: "It seems to me like the argument of Flam is because Wikidata allowed a bot who created items about Japanese sport scores that don't get imported anywhere into Misplaced Pages and the bot takes the data from a startup (and thus messed up their urls for a week) this shows that editoral judgements at Wikidata are so bad that Misplaced Pages shouldn't use Wikidata and the person who's responsible for allowing that bot to operate should be desysopped. " First, they did get imported into enwiki (by the same editor), so you start of on the wrong foot already. Second, taking stats from a startup is stupid: taking stats from a startup through a bot operated by the startup, who has shown no interest in helping Misplaced Pages until they wanted to make money by providing a cryptocurrency, is just helping a commercial startup gets its spamlinks on Wikidata and on as many Wikipedias as possible (as that is the huge benefit of Wikidata, remember, adding info once and getting it in 200 wikis simultaneously). This (and the defensive reactions at Wikidata about this, not seeing any problems with what happened), and many other issues, indeed make me believe that enwiki shouldn't use Wikidata. But that is, as far as I am concerned, not the scope of this ArbCom case (although obviously, if ArbCom would decide to have a case about the use of Wikidata, I would participate). This case is about the actions and comments Ymblanter made on enwiki in response to my criticism of that bot. He has shown on enwiki a profound misunderstanding of basic things an admin should know, and no indication that he is really learning from his misunderstandings. While his actions at Wikidata may show that the problems are not limited to this, they are just background information, not the core of the case. Fram (talk) 09:31, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@HJMitchell: basically, I'm almost the only editor who has presented any diffs, but apparently not enough for you? Even though you don't present a single diff to support your allegations? Very convincing... Fram (talk) 11:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@Ymblanter. Thanks for the apology. It still isn't clear to me what "incorrect statement" I am presumed to have made, unless you still maintain that a user adding links to his own commercial site (with info you could also get from e.g. the official page) isn't spamming. I attacked the general culture of Wikidata and its admins and bureaucrats, who defend such edits and bots (even now: "actions I performed on Wikidata in good faith, according to Wikidata policies, and which had no immediate relation to Misplaced Pages (I never imported the data or facilitated the import)" shows a misunderstanding of what Wikidata is apparently intended for, i.e. importing data to wikipedia, and at the same time one of the reasons I made that section, i.e. to highlight the (for enwiki) highly problematic Wikidata policy and its uncritical application by admins and bureaucrats). If you can't stand fair criticism of your actions, you shouldn't be an admin or bureaucrat (or you shouldn't make the actions that get criticized for causing problems). But this case is not about your actions at Wikidata; it is about your actions here, at enwiki. Anyway, you are free to start a case about my "systematic behavior of Fram below standards expected for administrator" (as with all such claims here, again fully without any evidence; but seeing the editor you tried to canvass in your first statement in this case, I think you better think twice about bringing that up if you don't want that editor getting widely criticized for the BLP violations I undid and which are apparently "stalking" and not simply doing what any admin should do). Fram (talk) 12:20, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Opabinia Regalis: yes, I meant this to be an admin-conduct case only (but thought that "admin conduct" wouldn't be a good casename either). A enwiki vs. Wikidata case may be fruitful, but perhaps should start different from this one. All I want here is some clear indication that admins shouldn't make accusations like "stalking" lightly but have a duty to provide good evidence or retract such claims; and some clerking or arbcom action to maintain some standards at an ArbCom case: not the easy "count the word limit", but the harder things like "no canvassing by pinging uninvolved editors with a known bias" or "no accusations with some evidence provided", which are both pretty basic policy violations. If people can get away with such things at an ArbCom case, then why should we try to enforce these policies anywhere else? Fram (talk) 12:20, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Ymblanter: Misplaced Pages doesn't equal enwiki. Wikidata is nearly always promoted here, by Wikidata-enthusiasts, as "it is used to provide info at once to all wikipedia languages" and so on; but when there is criticism of the contents, quality, sourcing, then your line suddenly is the official line: it is not for providing info to Misplaced Pages languages; they may do so, but it is not our goal or core business. Which, coupled with the "we use poor sources and will deprecate them once we get better ones" and so on is exactly one of the reasons I'm opposed to any use of Wikidata on enwiki. Anyway, let me quote what the WMF two months ago said about Wikidata: "Then that's an incomplete understanding. See e.g. : "Wikidata will support the more than 280 language editions of Misplaced Pages with one common source of structured data that can be used in all articles ". Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 13:42, 15 September 2017 (UTC) " As long as this is the official line on Wikidata and the way it is promoted at enwiki, you shouldn't claim that "Your edits show, as usual, misunderstanding of what Wikidata actually is. Many users tried to explain this to you, but you were not really interested in listening." but instead you should realise that depending on what the intention is (promoting Wikidata vs. minimizing the problems with sourcing and so on) two different positions are taken about what Wikidata is for. As it stands, Wikidata is a source of structured data that may not be used in all articles as it fails our basic standards of sourcing and so on. That is not a misunderstandng on my part or a refusal to listen, that is a vast gap between the WMF spiel and reality. As for your second point, "spambot is a bot which adds spam and does nothing else.": no, a spambot is a bot which adds spam. Camouflaging or sugaring this by adding information doesn't mean that it isn't a spambot. Fram (talk) 13:00, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Mike Peel; now that a second Portuguese Wikipedian has commented, and basically supported my view and indicated that your description of their way of thinking was wrong (" I'm appalled by the impression Mike Peel has of our community" were their actual words), perhaps you would like to strike that example of how I should look at the mirror? Fram (talk) 13:17, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
(Note: I intend to stop responding to statements like "I struck my only example but my point still stands" or "you should really look at Fram's behaviour, see e.g. this case from 5 years ago which ended at ArbCom and where Fram didn't even get an admonishment and the other side was nearly banned, and this more recent case where the filing party against Fram was shoo'ed away by ArbCom because they basically had no case". It shouldn't be too hard to find a few people who want to combine their grudges and present a case about me, but take your time and find some real evidence instead of this "let's randomly throw out some names, perhaps some people will believe us" approach)
@Opabinia Regalis: fair enough. It would seem strange to have a general case about Wikidata on enwiki starting with this case request, and with me and Ymblanter as involved parties. I think that either you would have a case with no parties (i.e. a case which only looks at the policy questions, some kind of mega-RfC where the ArbCom could act like judges and maintain some order during the proceedings, as a somewhat impartial or at least acceptable party to all sides), or some case with the main vocal parties on both sides (people like myself, Alsee, Jytdog, Mike Peel, PigsontheWing, RexxS, ...) where you look at conduct. But if you intend to have a case which looks at policy about Wikidata, and conduct surrounding the dispute at the same time, I think it will become a massive mess with lots of fallout but no resolution at all. Just my gut feeling, and you are free to deal with this as you see fit of course. Fram (talk) 07:42, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@Ritchie333: I obviously gave that impression, but I wanted Ymblanter to be either admonished or desysoped, depending on how severe others judged his actions on enwiki; and considering a recent case about an admin not willing or able to provide evidence for their accusations, which first took up a considerable amount of time and energy at AN only to inevitably end up at ArbCom anyway, it seemed more logical to go to ArbCom directly. This may well have been a wrong choice of course. But again, my goal was not necessarily to see Ymblanter desysoped, but to at least send a strong signal that such actions and accusations are unacceptable: how strong that signal needed to be was (and is) up to ArbCom. Fram (talk) 11:11, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@Callanecc: I just listed 6 of the more vocal people at the Wikidata discussions from the top of my head, there are plenty of others who have participated in a more or less frequent and constructive manner (including some with (WMF) or (WMDE) in their name). I guess if someone provides enough recent evidence of who are the most problematic and should be parties in a case (assuming prior attempts at conflict resolution have been tried or aren't necessary), that such a case would be possible. To go from a case about one incident to a case about a much larger issue, involving one of the parties, perhaps not the other from this case request, and a host of others, without any evidence being presented (just some "look at these discussions"), seems to be very unusual, and more based on some pre-conceived ideas of the problem than on anything that has actually been presented here (I mean, I e.g. added RexxS name because of some earlier disputes, but I don't believe they have been very involved with these discussions here for quite a while now). What, in my opinion, would be much more fruitful would be one or a series of RfCs abotu the use of Wikidata on enwiki, based on the current situation, and overseen by a group of neutral editors who can enforce some semblance of civility and rationality to it (with the understanding that civil bollocks should be adressed as well, as that as often the cause of a lot of contention: editors remaining calm and civil, but just sprouting nonsense which they can't back up with any evidence). There is already a draft RfC about one specific issue (Wikidata in infoboxes) in the making, but I think a general one would be more useful (after all, why would we have one RfC for infoboxes, and another for things like official websites and twitter accounts, and yet another for listeriabot-like articles, and then another for Article Placeholders, and so on, when a lot of the issues (like sourcing requirements, lack of some policies, ...) are identical anyway). Tackling the core issues instead of the people discussing (sometimes too heated or too personal) these issues seems the best solution; and certainly when no actual case has been presented against any of the 6 I named (or some others) which would actually warrant an ArbCom case. Perhaps such a case can be made for some of them; but already accepting it seems premature. Fram (talk) 15:28, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Ymblanter
Concerning stalking, I am sure User:LauraHale will have smth to say. What I had to say about it is on my user talk page linked above. I must add two things. First, this encounter is one of the top five the most unpleasant ones I ever had in Wikimedia projects. I do feel seriously offended, and I do not see even a bit of good faith from Fram's side. Second, my limited experience with Fram shows that they never listen to their opponent, they in fact never make any effort to listen to their opponent, but they maintain that they are always right, whereas the opponent is right only when they are fully aligned with Fram's opinion. I believe Fram should at some point look at the mirror. I do not see any merit for accepting the case to be honest. Note also that what they want from me is to edit a closed section of AN. I tried to remove it to avoid being arxived but was reverted.
May be just to make it clear, since Fram continues to maintain this accusation even after I gave clear explanation. I never promoted a spam-bot. I promoted a bot which worked properly , and continued working properly, and at some point references which the bot added earlier were changed on the upstream site so that they appeared as spam (after which I took the flag down and cleaned up the edits of the bot example). Accusing me in "promoting spam-bots" is as meaningful as to accuse a Misplaced Pages crat here who promoted INC to admins in "promoting vandals" because INC started vandalizing Misplaced Pages much later. This information has been provided on my talk page in the discussion Fram linked above, as well as on Wikidata Project Chat discussion also linked by Fram.
Note that Fram continues misleading the community: I never said "this could happened here as well", nor implied this, nor I actually think this way. Resolved.
Now I am not sure what is going on. If this is the case about my behavior - well, I believe it does not have merit, but at least it is a legit reason to file a case, and it is not up to me to decide what the outcome is. If this is the case about general relations between Wikidata and Misplaced Pages - I do not understand why it was filed against me. I do not think I ever modified Misplaced Pages infoboxes to include Wikidata, I left my opinion several times on discussion boards (often to correct incorrect statements about Wikidata), but this is it, unless of course somebody believes that I approved a Wikidata bot on purpose to harm Misplaced Pages (for the record, I learned only yesterday in the discussion that the results of the bot are being used in Misplaced Pages). If the case is accepted to investigate connection between Wikidata and Misplaced Pages I do not see why I should be a party of such a case.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:40, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Note that Lugnuts has been indeed long time upset with my existence on Misplaced Pages - I am not sure why, I apparently even never blocked them - to the point that they mention me in situations I have absolutely no relation to (this is stalking, right?), such as here, so that they were suggested by an uninvolved user to stop it or face a topic ban.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:37, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Note that Fram continues to make deliberately wrong statements about me . Even though I said clearly that I do not care which version of the infobox stays, and I did not vote in the RfC they continue to maintain that I have a "preferred version" thus pretending to know what I think better than I know. This is a blanket, aggressive assumption of bad faith, smth which can be easily traced in Fram's behavior over the years (and which an opening of this case and the statements which preceded it give an excellent example of).--Ymblanter (talk) 10:39, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
- Which they now continue to do in the body of the case.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Ok, I see that some users do not understand what I say, let me try again, more clearly. (i) Concerning behavioral issues, what happened was that Fram aggressively attacked me (technically speaking, Wikidata crats knowing the only two are active, and I currently assign a vast majority of the flags). The attack contained an incorrect statement. I overreacted, which I should not have been done, and I apologize for that. Fram attacked me again. Then they requested that I "retract" my statements. I asked them to cross out their statements which caused my reaction in the first term, they refused. Then I refused as well. This is not my typical behavior, I usually manage to stay cool (I can remember four instances when I lost my temper, in five years, and this was the worst one). (ii) I believe Fram has a consistent pattern of assuming bad faith towards multiple users, I fully agree here with Mike Peel (talk · contribs) and HJ_Mitchell (talk · contribs). I actually believe that Arbcom should not accept the case, but if it does, I am sure we will find quite some evidence showing systematic behavior of Fram below standards expected for administrator. (iii) If the case is accepted to investigate general relations of Wikidata and Misplaced Pages, I do not see why I should be a party of such a case. I never imported data from Wikidata to Misplaced Pages in any way, and, contrary to what my opponents imply, I believe that both Misplaced Pages and Wikidata are not currently ready for massive import and integration, in particular, because many Misplaced Pages users do not understand what Wikidata actually is, and Wikidata has some systemic problems which need to be addressed first. (iv) If somebody wants a case about me for actions I performed on Wikidata in good faith, according to Wikidata policies, and which had no immediate relation to Misplaced Pages (I never imported the data or facilitated the import) - well, there is little I can do about this, but I believe this is far outside the scope of Arbcom.--Ymblanter (talk) 23:45, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Fram: Your edits show, as usual, misunderstanding of what Wikidata actually is. Many users tried to explain this to you, but you were not really interested in listening. I will only make two points relevant for this case, and will likely abstain from commenting on your points in the future, since this seems to be useless. (i) Wikidata is not necessarily to provide data for Misplaced Pages (aka English Misplaced Pages), it is for all external reusers. Wikidata has, in particular, data of lower quality (no provenance, or provenance not reliable for Misplaced Pages standards), which are still added and later can be deprecated if there is better data. It is up to reusers how to use the data. (ii) spambot is a bot which adds spam and does nothing else. On Wikidata, as elsewhere, being a spambot is a block reason. This one also added useful info, thus it is not a spambot. This is likely my last response to Fram, otherwise this case would become another wall of text.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:46, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Floq
The internet is 95% eggshells armed with hammers (the other 5% are hammer salesmen). --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Ivanvector
I reverted Ymblanter's removal of the AN thread, it was later collapsed by another user. In my opinion there's no rationale for removing postings from administrative noticeboards rather than allowing them to archive, excepting situations covered by WP:DFTT perhaps. Removing a thread in which one's own conduct is being discussed is particularly inappropriate, it gives the impression of trying either to silence criticism or to bury evidence. You can search an archive, you can't search a revision history.
Regarding the case request, if the folks who approve bots are so reckless in their reviews that they approve a spambot as obvious as Fram makes it out to be, those folks should probably be removed from that responsibility. It does direct harm to English Misplaced Pages notwithstanding that the actual editing occurs on a sister project, and so it is within this community's remit to object and certainly not "ridiculous" to bring it up on this project. This particular bot introduced to this project obvious reference spam in the form of links to a clearly promotional website, which were also factually incorrect in that the links referred to none of the information supposedly referenced.
I was with Fram's post up to the last paragraph: this was clearly an error. If an admin has made an error in approving a bot, it must be a simple matter to inform them, block the bot and clean up its edits. It's pretty easy to clean up that sort of mess on this project, anyway, I really don't know much about Wikidata. However, I do think it's a pretty big leap for Fram to then say, based on this one incident, that all of Wikidata should be delinked from enwiki and abandoned. Ymblanter may have been justifiably upset that Fram's comment came in the form of an attack on their record, but then again, if Ymblanter's defense of this course of action is an indication of the way things are expected to work at Wikidata, then perhaps Fram has a point.
At any rate I don't think there's a case here. A couple of admins got shouty with each other; we're not expected to be heartless robots. Both seemingly moved on (er, notwithstanding this case request). And as for whether or not to continue linking with Wikidata, that's not something for the Committee to rule on. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:04, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Ymblanter added some info after I posted this, which deserves comment. If the sample edits made by the bot linked to valid info at the time of approval and were changed on the external site after the fact to point to spam, then obviously Ymblanter shouldn't be expected to catch that at the time of approval. However I did not see where Ymblanter provided this sensible explanation before posting it above. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:13, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Alex Shih
(edit conflict) I am unfamiliar with Wikidata, but it does appear there needs to be a lot more oversight. To comment purely on the AN/I thread, I am going to echo the observations made by Ivanvector. I think it would be helpful if Ymblanter could substantiate the timeline of the bot in the forms of diffs in his statement, and then we'll be better informed to look at the exchange between these two editors to determine if there is a case. My opinion is, not really. Alex Shih (talk) 16:21, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Fram: I do agree with your points. If the committee decides that actions at Wikidata should be subject to review here, I wouldn't have any objections. And I agree it would be helpful if some BAG members can offer their views; I do want to note that (not endorsing) that different wikis have different standards, so I think that could be taken into consideration. On a last note, I would like to ask if it was entirely necessary to make
sacarstic
remarks () after you knew the editor was upset by the way you presented your (valid) points (). Just a thought. Alex Shih (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Iridescent
Even though it will be the case from hell, I urge the committee to accept this even though it may not follow the format of a typical case; while the conduct of a couple of admins may be the trigger, someone needs to address the underlying issue. The social interaction between pro- and anti-Wikidata editors, and between the Misplaced Pages community and the WMF, regarding the Wikidata issue has broken down almost completely, and as I'm sure you're all aware is spilling onto multiple talk pages; at a minimum read this thread (and ideally the whole page, if not the archives as well) to get a feel for just how strained the three-way dispute is getting.
As Fram points out above, the disruption caused by Wikidata is now beginning to impact on Misplaced Pages articles themselves, but because of Wikidata's fiercely-defended independence there is no mechanism by which we can currently order Wikidata not to take actions that disrupt Misplaced Pages. (It's also starting to have potential for serious reputational damage to en-wiki, as Google Knowledge Graph et al are starting to draw data from Wikidata but they generally credit it to "Misplaced Pages"; our reputation for accuracy isn't great as it is without Wikidata doing our legs by refusing to comply with policies on accuracy and sourcing.)
For whatever reason (some would say it's the community's inability to agree, some would say it's intentional stonewalling by the WMF) the community has been unable to agree on the appropriate level of input Wikidata should have on Misplaced Pages. It needs a structured and moderated discussion to agree on how on-wiki disruption originating at Wikidata is to be handled; the usual methods of RFCs won't be able to handle this, and unless Jimmy has the masochistic urge to take direct control of the debate Arbcom is the only body with the ability to moderate such a discussion and to make whatever conclusions it comes up with binding. (The flow in the other direction, of how information gets from Misplaced Pages into Wikidata, is their concern and we shouldn't be telling them what level of sourcing etc they should consider appropriate, although that's not to say we should rule out "unless you comply with Misplaced Pages standards data can't be imported back from Wikidata to Misplaced Pages" and making the flow of data one-way.) ‑ Iridescent 16:56, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Rschen7754
I have not read the statements, but looking at the title of the case and having been a steward, and a current admin on both enwiki and Wikidata (and former oversighter at the latter) I anticipate having something to say. --Rschen7754 18:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Now I have read the opening statement, and it was disappointing. tl;dr: why is this case request as framed called "Crosswiki issues" instead of "Ymblanter"? That's what the request seems to be about. Injecting the word "Wikidata" into this request seems to be some rallying cry and some sort of trying to pick a fight with WMF (similar to the words "Visual Editor"), as unfortunately Alex Shih and Iridescent's statements have caved in to. --Rschen7754 18:24, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ritchie333: I think there are some valid points in your statement, but I don't see how they are relevant to this case as currently described by Fram. I could see a request going forward based on the battleground behavior that took place at some of the links you gave. I also agree with the points raised of ArbCom not being a policy making venue, and not a battering ram to be used against WMF/WMDE/Wikidata. --Rschen7754 18:35, 1 November 2017 (UTC) also @Opabinia regalis: --Rschen7754 18:37, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Hasteur
Endorsing the conclusion from Iridescent. We should be enforcing our standards as we envision them. Wikidata can do whatever the hell it wants. If there's a bot that is making edits automatically to en.WP by importing wikidata content, it should be de-authorized and re-scoped to permit only the most uncontroversial changes (Website of an organization, birth, death, etc.). I do see the case for a set of scripts that editors can use that can incorporate data from Wikidata after the editor has verified the content (much the same way the reFill works). The editor importing the data assumes responsibility for errors or spam sites being inserted into the encyclopedia. Hasteur (talk) 21:00, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Ritchie333
I grimaced when I came across this request this afternoon, but I think there is a case to answer for some of the problems Wikidata has imposed on this project. The reports of vandalism going undetected and left to fester are worrying, and the trench warfare and divisive rhetoric exhibited at the TfDs for Template:Infobox person/Wikidata (, ) and Template:Cite Q (), plus the related ANI thread clearly demonstrate that this is an intractable dispute that is going to require Arbcom to look at. And it tangentially involves infoboxes, which is probably the mother of all WP disputes of all time. So I'm afraid there is a requirement for a case. Ritchie333 22:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Opabinia regalis: There are more substantial grounds for a case, but it's spread out over more users. See the four debates I linked to here, plus this infobox discussion,this other ANI thread (where the closing administrator suggested Arbcom), and this AN discussion, plus mild edit-warring on Misplaced Pages:Wikidata/2017 State of affairs. In all cases, discussions start off sensible but end up with deeply-entrenched bickering. I could go on if you need more, but I'd rather not. Ritchie333 10:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Rschen7754: In the ANI thread I mentioned here (in archive 945), you said "IMHO this situation is getting awfully close to something for ArbCom to handle" Ritchie333 11:25, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Callanecc: It's not really fair to single people out - though there have been multiple contentious discussions, the participants are not consistent. However, if I had to pick two editors who just cannot get along, it would be Fram and pigsonthewing. Recent examples include the edit-warring I mentioned above and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive964#Further pointy behaviour by Pigsonthewing which was hatted by Primefac, who admonished the pair of them with "ENOUGH. Fram and Andy, I respect you both, but your conduct here is not making either of your cases better". Yet in the past couple of days I can see "Get the beam out of your own eye" and "Yes, improving articles is such a POINTy action, perhaps you should report me to the wiki-authorities for my actions." I don't think an interaction ban between the pair would work as they are pretty much the strongest pro and anti Wikidata proponents on the whole project, and it would probably send a chilling effect to everyone else. Ritchie333 13:10, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
@Opabinia regalis: Fram started the case specifically because they wanted to desysop Ymblanter : "I'll think about it and let you know if and when I start an ArbCom request (no sense going to ANI as they can't desysop anyway)." Ritchie333 11:06, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@Callanecc: In their latest statement, Fram has identified six editors as potential participants in a "conduct in Wikidata discussions" case - that might be a suitable starting point. Ritchie333 11:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Mendaliv
If this is to be a desysopping case, then I believe it is premature and not sufficiently serious to merit opening a case. The discussion was unpleasant, but I don't see any claim in the complaint of such a significant pattern of departures from minimum standards of administrative conduct that desysopping would ever be merited. Thus, I believe any aspect of Ymblanter's conduct could and should be addressed first in the context of an AN/ANI thread.
If, on the other hand, this is to be a case about Wikidata, I believe there has been insufficient policymaking activity at the community level that the Committee could render a decision on Wikidata's use without exceeding its jurisdiction with respect to rulemaking (see WP:ARBPOL#Policy and precedent).
That said, there may be sufficient grounds to hold a case focused on individuals' conduct in the context of Wikidata policymaking discussions. If the Committee chooses to accept such a case, I would respectfully suggest that the scope be tightly limited to prevent disruption and chilling of policymaking discussions that should happen.
Statement by ChristianKl
I think it's completley unfair to call the bot in question a spam bot. As far as I'm aware no involved party made a claim that data added by the bot in question was wrong. What is this bot about? Scorum is a new website that stores sport statistics and that wants to use the blockchain while doing so. The bot did 605 edits on Wikidata. During the edits it created items like https://www.wikidata.org/Q38073146 which are about the scores of Japanese football teams. This is not information that gets automatically imported by enwiki without the additional template that the user created. Whether or not enwiki wants such templates is a pure enwiki issue that's beyond Wikidata's policy decisions.
As every good bot, the bot in question provides references. Unfortunately, Scorum changed their internal URL layout and as a result the references didn't point anymore to the sport data but to their front page with makes a sales pitch for their for a cryptocurrency that backs the website. When we noticed the change, we blocked the bot. A few days later the website fixed their internal links and as a result all the links now go to the correct page that lists the correct data and that doesn't try to sell you on the cryptocurrency.
It seems to me like the argument of Flam is because Wikidata allowed a bot who created items about Japanese sport scores that don't get imported anywhere into Misplaced Pages and the bot takes the data from a startup (and thus messed up their urls for a week) this shows that editoral judgements at Wikidata are so bad that Misplaced Pages shouldn't use Wikidata and the person who's responsible for allowing that bot to operate should be desysopped. ChristianKl (talk) 10:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by BU Rob13
While I'm not sure if this is the best interaction to bring this to the forefront, the relation between editors in support of Wikidata and those who find some aspects of that project troubling has been problematic for a while. I urge the Committee to accept this case with a relatively broad scope that focuses more on the topic area than individual editors. In particular, I've seen quite a few editors in support of Wikidata that seem to prefer trampling over the community when expanding Wikidata integration. I've seen quite a few editors opposing Wikidata who respond to those attempts in wholly uncivil manners. The problematic behavior needs to stop from both sides. I would also not oppose a motion to apply discretionary sanctions to the topic area without a full case. ~ Rob13 10:49, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: The policies are not in your purview. The conduct during discussions of policy (and policy creation) very much is. I think this case can and should proceed very similarly to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation. (See, I can be brief!) ~ Rob13 10:52, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by OID
Just a few things.
- 1. ENWP has no authority to tell Wikidata how to run its own shop. If an admin/editor there takes actions on Wikidata within its own (lack of) policy framework, that is Wikidata's problem.
- 2. If the actions the admin/editor make on wikidata impact on ENWP content, it is perfectly acceptable to take them to task here if they break ENWP's policies.
- 3. If the admin/editor on wikidata knows *in advance* that something they approve on wikidata which is in line with wikidata (lack of) policy framework, but is prohibited on ENWP and *will* impact on ENWP, then there is no reason they cannot be sanctioned for it. The ENWP editor has taken actions off-wiki that has directly affected on-wiki content.
- 4. Given the above 3 points there is a case for looking at the behavior of various editors heavily involved in Wikidata and their pushing of Wikidata material onto ENWP. Specifically in relation to templates, unsourced/unacceptably sourced material, edit-warring, tendentious editing around infobox/templates etc. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:00, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by GoldenRing
I think this case request, and many of the disputes surrounding it, boil down to this question:
- Since content from wikidata is imported into en-wiki articles, where is the policy boundary between en-wiki and wikidata?
This is a difficult and complicated policy question and the community is showing signs of being deeply divided over it in a way that makes it unlikely to be readily resolved by consensus.
To relate this question to the case request, one way of looking at the facts described is that the owners of a startup commercial sports statistics website inserted links to their website as references on the English wikipedia. It seems pretty clear that if an editor had done this directly, by hand, they would be swiftly blocked for refspamming (IMO the external link restructuring that resulted in links to cryptocurrency sales is a distraction here). It follows that any request for this task to be done by a bot on en-wiki would be refused.
The complexity comes because those references were inserted on wikidata, where (apparently) this sort of thing is in line with policy. Someone else independently used a template on en-wiki which imports live data and references from wikidata - not those refspam data and references specifically, but a much wider category of data and references which encompassed the refspam. It is very likely that this template was added to articles before the refspam was added to wikidata.
Given that the refspam is unacceptable on en-wiki, how do we deal it? Some options I can see are:
- Blame the person who made the actual edit on en-wiki using the template, even though when they made the edit, the content on wikidata may have been compliant with en-wiki policy. This would effectively ban templates that import data from wikidata, but is attractive because it's the easiest to implement and involves no questions of cross-wiki policy. This approach is evident in the discussion around {{Cite Q}} linked above.
- Blame the person who made the edit on wikidata. This would mean exporting en-wiki policy to wikidata, in this case requiring that all sourcing on wikidata comply with WP:RS. This gives us maximum benefit from wikidata in return for maximum cross-wiki policy headaches. We have no practical way at present of doing this and it raises even more complicated questions when other wikis get involved.
- Blame the person who authorised the bot task because they happen to edit actively at en-wiki and so can be sanctioned here as a proxy for being sanctioned there for violating en-wiki policies at wikidata and didn't respond in the absolute best possible manner to hostile questions about it. This is a fairly course caricature of this dispute.
- Accept that content that comes from wikidata doesn't always meet our policies on sourcing and make an exception to those policies for it.
Like it or not, option 4 is pretty much how things are in practice now. It strikes me as a theoretically-unjustifiable-but-pragmatic solution if wikidata keeps their house in reasonable-enough order. The disputes are coming because, on the one hand, people are only just realising that this is how things are and starting to object and, on the other hand, disruptive editors of most types are realising that wikidata is a less-monitored way of getting their particular disruptive material (such as refspam) onto en-wiki.
These are hard questions to answer and on the one hand I don't think the committee ought to answer them while on the other hand the community seems unable to answer them. GoldenRing (talk) 11:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- BU Rob13 makes a good point above that, whatever you think of the policy questions, editor conduct around those questions has been suboptimal. GoldenRing (talk) 11:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Callanecc: I said above that I don't think the committee ought to answer these questions and the more I think about it, the more I am of this opinion. In particular (and I think the last part of your comment is on the same general lines of thought), I think there is a real danger that, if the committee accepts this case with a scope that includes answering any of the questions above, the resulting answers will, in large part, be determined by the committee's inability to create policy. These are questions that need to be answered with all possible answers on the table, as far as possible; having arbcom answer them takes too many possible answers off the table before we even begin. On the other hand, of course, arbcom has a substantially better chance of actually, you know, arriving at any answer at all. GoldenRing (talk) 12:02, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Boing! said Zebedee
Just a note that User talk:ScorumME suggests that the stats company in question is engaged in some sort of legal issue relating to Misplaced Pages WMF. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:19, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by ArthurPSmith
I operate a bot on Wikidata (also I am a property creator), and I spoke (in 3 sessions) at the 5-th year birthday Wikidatacon last weekend. I have occasionally contributed to the bot approval process on Wikidata where Ymblanter has done stellar work for years as our main bot approver. His work would be FAR easier if there were more eyeballs there to help. Every English wikipedia editor is welcome to review Wikidata bot proposals and provide their votes on the matter, this would be a tremendous improvement on the 2 or 3 people we have now who take an interest in this. Wikidata is a worldwide open community, there is no reason why English wikipedia editors cannot have a significant influence on how it progresses and improves. ArthurPSmith (talk) 13:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Lugnuts
Wikidata aside, there's the main issue with WP:ADMINCOND, which states "Administrators should strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another" and WP:ADMINACCT: "Subject only to the bounds of civility, avoiding personal attacks, and reasonable good faith, editors are free to question or to criticize administrator actions". Ymblanter removed the section from ANI, which contains the incivil comments of "aka fucking lie" and "Ok, go fucking ahead to arbcom", which fails both of the above. Now Ymblanter knows this kind of languge and behaviour is not acceptable, as when it's done to him, he requests that someone should teach them manners. If admins are allowed to speak to other users/admins like this, it sets a worringly bad trend and gives a strong message to the rest of the community about what type of individual they are. Lugnuts 14:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
I see Ymblanter has tried the old stalking card (he's already used this against Fram!) with his retort, above, which contains this link, which also contains a reply from Fram calling admins who beg for thanks "pathetic", which is what Ymblanter did when he was bemoaning cleaning up backlogs and not getting the appreication from his peers. Lugnuts 14:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Guerillero
I urge the committee to look into this issue; particularly the conduct on all sides of the wikidata dispute. There is a bull in a china shop approach that I am seeing from several people that gives me the feeling of Deja Vous.
I will remind everyone that our sister projects are not subservient to us. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:50, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Black Kite
I think this needs to be taken as a case, regardless of the scope that ArbCom is capable of. Iridescent probably covered most of the issues above, but the very simple fact that the processes (and in some cases those administering them) at Wikidata are clearly not fit for purpose needs to be addressed. We cannot allow enwiki to be a target for possible spam and vandalism due to the poor processes at another project. Black Kite (talk) 19:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlish
OID's statement above says everything I would have, in more compact form. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ< 19:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Observation and suggestion by Dax
This appears, at first glance, to be a GovCom-esque situation. Since ArbCom's jurisdiction does not reach beyond the realm of enwiki, I suggest that they accept and directly refer to the WMF board to make the binding decisions as to the interaction of enwiki-wikidata policies and/or craft policies dictating that data changes imported from wikidata be subject to PC1/PC2 before it is shown to readers. Dax Bane 20:17, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Alsee: The wikidata community has approximately zero interest in WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:refspam, or anything else. Hence my suggestion to punt this case up to the WMF board. They can, and should, create Wikidata:BLP, Wikidata:V et al to curb this (in as much as the Five Pillars here are WMF policy and not really subject to revision by the community (correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am) Dax Bane 06:24, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@Alsee: Points taken, then I guess the only remaining option is to subject Wikidata to the same criteria that we apply to the likes of the NY Times, WSJ, Washington Post, etc (and the same sanctions should people violate it) - surely someone at the foundation would notice that one of their largest projects (enwp) has refused to use a sister project because it's considered an unreliable source
Statement by Hawkeye7
- ENWP has no authority to tell Wikidata how to run its own shop. (WP:CONEXCEPT)
- While ArbCom has sanctioned admins for actions taken outside ENWP, it is wrong to do so for decisions taken in good faith under the policies and procedures of another project.
- Commons remains by far the worst offender.
- While ArbCom could develop procedures for interaction with WikiData,
I do not feel that this would be the best venue for what would best require considerable discussion. I believe Mike Peel has his Wikidata ID tattooed on him.
- Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
- In the light of further comments, I have struck two of mine. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:42, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Davey2010
Ymblanter should never have approved the bot at Wikidata in the first place and their actions at ANI and god knows where else haven't helped but for me atleast the main issue in all of this is Wikidata and the fact it's so "understaffed" (yes we're volunteers but I can't think of a better word!) - I believe only a year or 2 ago Wikidata ended up at ANI because of page vandalism over there, Something needs sorting but dunno what or even how. –Davey2010 03:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Alanscottwalker
Three things lead me to ask the committee to take this case 1) the EN community is institutionally ignorant of Wikidata, because it is not us; 2) the importation of content onto ENWP is a conduct matter, and systematic importation is a "serious" conduct issue; and 3) per ARBPOL: "The Committee does not rule on content, but may propose means by which community resolution of a content dispute can be facilitated."
We, the ENWP community, need a systematic investigation, which only this committee is set up to provide - and we should not wait around for more disputes to arise, as that is prizing bureaucracy above just helping us out, here. Sure, the committee may fail in their investigation, and sure, the committee may not arrive at good proposals for RfC's and the like, and sure, you may not love this work, especially if it leads to nothing immediately useful. But, I ask that you try. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Observation by Beyond My Ken
Guerillero: I will remind everyone that our sister projects are not subservient to us.
True, but neither are we required to accept content from them if that content violates en.wiki policies. I would encourage everyone to remember this, and keep alive the possibility that a potential solution if Wikidata doesn't serve its customer (us) properly, is to simply cut them off and not allow Wikidata content on en.wiki.
Of course, that's not in the remit of the Committee (although the behavior of editors and admins in relation to the WD controversy obviously is), and has to be determined by the community. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:10, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Mike Peel
I'm afraid that my view of Fram vs Ymblanter here is that it's the pot calling the kettle black. Ymblanter summarised the situation extremely well by saying about Fram that "they never listen to their opponent, they in fact never make any effort to listen to their opponent, but they maintain that they are always right, whereas the opponent is right only when they are fully aligned with Fram's opinion. I believe Fram should at some point look at the mirror." As someone that's been on the receiving end of this *a lot* over the last few months, I can vouch for the fact that it's extremely frustrating, and can seriously wind up the other party (for me it lead to me posting ). However, Ymblanter's responses are clearly inappropriate and should not have been posted. If this case is investigated, then I think that the behaviour of both parties needs to be equally looked into.
There is also the wider question about Wikidata usage, which I don't think should be included here. There is a draft RfC on Wikidata usage being drafted at Misplaced Pages:Wikidata/2017 RfC draft that will hopefully ultimately lead to consensus between the different perspectives here. The behaviour around this work could be investigated (a good place to start to see the hostility involved is Misplaced Pages talk:Wikidata/2017 State of affairs), but I think that's a separate/wider case than the one described in the first few statements here. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 08:37, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@Hawkeye7: BTW, I'm not aware of anyone with a Wikidata tattoo. I'm personally against tattoos. Mike Peel (talk) 08:44, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@Fram: I think the evidence here is clear on the pages I've linked to above. In particular, see the discussion on the 2017 State of affairs page - I quite liked the way you were insisting that things were happening on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages in a certain way *despite* a Portuguese Wikipedian explaining that you were wrong! I don't have sour grapes over "losing the RfC", as demonstrated by my ongoing engagement there at Template_talk:Infobox_World_Heritage_Site#Implementation_of_RfC where I've proposed an interim solution while the full implementation is discussed/carried out, although you're continuing to not listen to what I'm saying there (which has been consistent in all of your posts in the RfC discussion). Mike Peel (talk) 08:55, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@Fram: I've partially struck my comment there, but that still doesn't change the point I made in my previous comment. You always think you are absolutely right, and ignore any opinions to the contrary. That's not healthy/constructive. Mike Peel (talk) 13:01, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
@Alsee: You seem to be ignoring the cleanup work I did at the same time as switching uses of Infobox World Heritage Site to use Wikidata, at the same time as I was making sure that the info on Wikidata that was being used in the infobox matched what was being displayed on enwp and what UNESCO's records specified. This is one of the main reasons that I'm resisting simply reverting the edits I made before, as doing so would re-introduce a lot of errors to enwp - it's better to substitute the corrected data instead, which I've offered to do in good faith by coding up a bot that could substitute the Wikidata values. Of course, there are still several hundred WHS infoboxes that I hadn't managed to clean up before the RfC intervened, which should be the priority! If you can point me towards useful content that was actually deleted then I'm happy to restore it... Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:40, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Comment from Harry
I have no dog in this fight; I can see both the usefulness and the pitfalls of Wikidata. I just feel compelled to point out that Fram has a long track record of railroading projects and groups and particularly editors he disagrees with and this case is perfectly on form: a wall of text, lots of allegations, and just a handful of diffs which show an editor with a good track record getting a bit terse. As usual, Fram starts with a legitimate point (in this case, that there are problems with the content being imported from Wikidata) but advocates for an extreme solution and bludgeons the process and drowns his opponents in walls of text across multiple venues, all the while refusing to assume good faith or budge an inch from his position. In other words, the kind of thing that leads normally level-headed editors to despair. If there is to be a case, I would ask that Fram's conduct be very closely examined. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:24, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Callanecc: A few diffs would not illustrate the pattern because there's nothing obviously wrong with any of Fram's individual comments, but look at his interactions with Rich Farmbrough. With Magioladitis. With Cwmhiraeth. With the entire DYK project (and I'm sure I've missed some). Compare and contrast that with his conduct here. I don't question the purity of Fram's motives; I expect he feels he's doing what's right for Misplaced Pages and to a certain extent he has a point. The problem is with the wars of attrition he wages. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:23, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Dank
What jumped out at me as I read the comments was that almost everyone either wants Arbcom to take this case or doesn't express a strong preference. Generally, you don't get people agreeing on anything when tackling these issues. And within the last day, two arguable no votes have clarified their positions: Hawkeye has now struck (in part ... thanks Hawkeye), and GoldenRing gave me an explanation of his position (worth reading) on his talk page.
Repeating what I said there: Arbcom is much more likely not to fix something that they could actually fix than the other way around; there is little chance that they will go all bull-in-a-china-shop. They may go the other direction, and do something minimal and limited to just the two principal parties. But even a minimal ruling can be one important step along the way, as people grapple with this very extensive and tough problem. Arbcom is hesitating, and I can understand that ... they're not masochists. But I think it would be good to apply peer pressure to get them to step up and do the right thing, the necessary thing , and a unanimous case request would be a suitable form of peer pressure. IMO, Arbcom is a kind of single point of failure for Misplaced Pages ... if they turn away from disputes that can legitimately be framed as ongoing policy violations and that can't be solved elsewhere, then the whole dispute-resolution system fails.
Statement by Beetstra
I applaud the system of WikiData, but do see some large problems with the system which are hard to resolve. Either we live with it, or we act against it. I do not think that the community will be able to resolve this, though I think also that this would not be a case for ArbCom to resolve. However, it affects the community's, and (previous) ArbCom decisions.
My largest issues with WikiData are the ones regarding to whom actions are attributed, ban/block evasion effects, 'editor choice' and plain disruption.
- One can perform edits on WikiData which change data on en.wikipedia which do not get 'recorded' (they may get noticed by editors who have a page here watchlisted and see 'changes on WikiData'). Some of that data gets only 'recorded' upon the next edit performed to the page (most notably: transclude an external link from WikiData, change that on WikiData to a new link which matches an en.wikipedia
or global spam-blacklistrule, and the next editor who edits the page here on en.wikipedia (even if they just add a space, or correct a typo) will run into an edit failure that is caused by the blacklist block, and their failed edit will be recorded as their edit in the spam blacklist log. - Automated transclusion of data could have editors who are banned/restricted on en.wikipedia to perform certain actions (or all, if blocked/sitebanned), to de facto edit en.wikipedia (their edits on WikiData directly changes the content displayed on en.wikipedia). (note that to a much smaller extend, that could happen through commons as well, though the effective changes are limited to changing images on other wikis, here the effect can be much larger).
- If local editors chose to override data of WikiData, it gets flagged as 'incorrect', 'dissimilar' etc. Chose to blindly transclude from WikiData, then policies on WikiData could enforce their format in conflict with local formats. (follow changes to Category:Official website different in Wikidata and Misplaced Pages for an (unenforced) flavour of this).
- Bot edits on WikiData can disrupt local watchlists to a maximum - if an editor (like me)
decidesneeds to check both bot edits ánd WikiData edits, watchlists can become utterly useless if a extremely high-speed bot on WikiData (hundreds of edits per minute) is running through articles of your interest (I know that I can turn both off, but that also means I do miss pertinent data in my watchlist).
en.wikipedia is not prepared for this, does not have procedures in place. In the meantime, we do run into arguments that practically say 'we need to do this on en.wikipedia because we need the data to make WikiData better', are strongly pushed to use WikiData for data (or simply it is implemented 'because we can'), and are strongly pushed to streamline to improve WikiData. --Dirk Beetstra 05:51, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- Somewhat related is this discussion by User:Simon Villeneuve. --Dirk Beetstra 12:52, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- I fail to see how transclusions of {{Wikidata property}}, either in mainspace (see .e.g. Author#References) or in meta-namespaces (diffs by User:Pigsonthewing) in any form contribute improve articles on en.wikipedia. diff by User:Magioladitis is of a similar nature. --Dirk Beetstra 12:52, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- Question: In how far is this yet another drive of the WMF pushing something onto a community, like the MediaViewer, Flow, ...? Is this running into yet another fait accomply, where we will have massive problems returning back to a time 'before' WikiData. --Dirk Beetstra 14:14, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Comment by Wnt
From what I've seen, Wikidata has a history of not doing things we want and doing things we don't want. Therefore, I think it is a no-brainer that material should not be transcluded from Wikidata into Misplaced Pages except in tightly limited cases where we have pretty solid assurances that they will be up to Misplaced Pages standards, with prior (Misplaced Pages) community approval. Editors should be encouraged to subst Wikidata templates where they provide useful information now, with the editor responsible for checking the substed content before saving. Editors might be discouraged from transclusions by having an edit filter warn them before proceeding or having it flag their edits for some kind of review. Editors should be encouraged to link to Wikidata, in whatever format, as an external resource; specifically, substed Wikidata links should contain an update link that editors or Misplaced Pages-authorized bots can use to resubst them with new data. That said, I am not sure ArbCom has much role in doing all of this; I'm putting this idea out there as an idea in case this all finds a community RFC at some point. Wnt (talk) 16:52, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Alsee
Note on User talk:ScorumME's legal issue: I reported the company to WMF legal for trademark concerns. Their main page was advertizing that they had a "partner" relationship with Misplaced Pages. Apparently anyone who edits Misplaced Pages is a Misplaced Pages-partner, chuckle. I think this helps illuminate this company's edits.
Iridescent and GoldenRing have given excellent summaries of the situation, as well as Ritchie333 who provided important links.
Defining the scope of this case will be difficult. In the narrow scope, Ymblanter's accusation of "stalking" was an unsupported accusation due to repeated natural encounters. The escalation with things like "go fucking ahead to arbcom" was clearly inappropriate, but in isolation it's rather small for an ARMCOM case.
In a wierd bit of defence of Ymblanter, the bot which they approved at Wikidata was probably acceptable by wikidata-community-norms. However this "defense of Ymblanter" is really just a condemnation of the wikidata community. The bot was a blatant refspambot even before it was approved. The bot was spamming self-promotional refs to a dubious startup company. As GoldenRing notes, it's mere distraction that the referenced website changed after approval. This instance perfectly illustrates the problem. EnWiki has no business controlling wikidata, but if we auto-import wikidata then this is the kind of thing we have to expect. The wikidata community has approximately zero interest in WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:refspam, or anything else. A bot approved at wikidata can fill wikipedia articles with predatory references. And that's without even considering issues with wikidata content itself.
The WP:Wikidata/2017 RfC draft in theory could help sort out how to handle wikidata. However I anticipate the RFC will land us close to where we are now. Consensus has heavily shifted against wikidata since the initial deployment. However people who aren't closely familiar with the issue tend to seek a theoretical middleground. Unfortunately the benefits and problems of wikidata are an inseparable package. If the middle-voice of consensus seeks a middleground, it will just leave enthusiasts and critics battling endlessly.
At Template_talk:Infobox_World_Heritage_Site we are dealing with over 1400 articles that need cleanup. This is no routine infobox squabble. Misplaced Pages content was massively deleted from these infoboxes to clear the way for auto-display of wikidata values. It now appears intractable to recover the deleted content from article history. The person who deleted it certainly isn't interested doing the work of digging through article history. Instead they propose adding insult to injury. Their "cleanup" solution is to run a bot which would simply overwrite all of the deleted wikipedia content with wikidata content.
I don't know if or how ARBCOM can address the broader issue, but I plea for something. Wikidata-enthusiasts think it's find to boldly show up at a random template and "improve" it with wikidata, no consensus needed. The disruption of converting just ONE template to wikidata, and converting it back, can be massive to the point of irreparable. Alsee (talk) 19:32, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Dax Bane: I think it would be dubious to ask the WMF board to order Wikidata to create polices. First, having policies means squat if the community's mission and culture have little genuine interest in doing the work to enforce them. Second, I think it implausible they would apply the range policies and criteria-level we would want. Is the WMF-board really going to order Wikidata to define&prohibit refspam? Third, EnWiki isn't the only wiki involved. I believe some language-wikipedias have partial or strict requirements that sources be in their own language, or other random policies. Fourth, having such policies enforced effectively at wikidata would be an improvement but it still leaves a mess of other issues. Fifth, the Wikidata community is too small to police vandalism on their content as-it-is. They have a ridiculously high bot-percentage, and the supposed "wikidata editor count" is massively bloated with people who don't actually edit wikidata. When anyone moves or deletes a page, the software generates a matching edit at wikidata. All of those people get fictitiously added to the count of active wikidata editors. Alsee (talk) 07:23, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Jytdog
- The general principles for use of Wikidata in Misplaced Pages are very much undefined. Fwiw i started an essay Misplaced Pages:Use of Wikidata in Misplaced Pages that i hope can be developed into a guideline and maybe policy eventually. But there is nothing close to consensus (i.e. policy) on this now. Arbcom doesn't make policy, it interprets and applies it. There is really nothing for Arbcom to do on this general issue, since there is no real policy to interpret.
- With regard to the conflict between Fram and YMblanter... in my view YMblanter lost it a bit in the conflict with Fram. Admins are human, and this happens. With an acknowledgement from them that they lost it and did things they have sanctioned others for, this should be let go, with an admonishment. If they won't do that.. well, that is over my paygrade.
- With regard to YMblanter's bad judgement in approving a spambot in Wikidata -- and their refusal to even acknowledge that this was bad judgement -- I remain aghast, but this is not a matter for en-WP Arbcom. (Fwiw, I believe their claim that the cryptocurrency scam was not apparent at first, but the CORPNAME of the account, the stated intention to use the bot only to add links to their own website, and the newness of the company and its website, were all very apparent, and the decision to approve that bot remains incomprehensible to me. There is a discussion at the WD Chat page, here about that decision, where the initial approval is getting some support, which is ... very disheartening. And to me, speaks to whether the en-WP community and the other WMF projects and users of WD, should trust the WD community to keep rank spam out of Wikidata... but this is a matter for our eventual "Use of Wikidata in Misplaced Pages" policy)
- There ~may~ be an Arbcom case, with respect to behavior/process of those deploying Wikidata in en-WP. In my view, two existing policies are not being followed in these efforts, namely WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BOT. The latter, due to the automated nature of the way that Wikidata is deployed via templates and infoboxes, such that changes to Wikidata can affect many articles, all at once. CONSENSUS, with respect to the general norm that we ask people to get prior consensus before making systematic changes. This place is a balance between BOLD and CONSENSUS - between libertarian and communitarian ideologies... and the Wikidata advocates are being overly BOLD in making changes that have widespread effects. If Arbcom does go in this direction, in my view WMF employees with en-WP accounts should be made parties to the case, due to their choices to display Wikidata content on en-WP articles on mobile and in the apps - systematic changes to en-WP content.
- The outcome of such a case would, I would hope, establish a more clear process for pre-approving uses of Wikidata which ~should~ calm things down, and would also set up a situation in which common themes and decision-bases will eventually emerge and be identified in the specific discussions, that will become the living en-WP policy on "Use of Wikidata in en-WP". Jytdog (talk) 01:10, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- Callencac, If there is a case about conduct, I was looking to the outcome there, and imaging what "principles" and "findings of fact" would emerge. I reckon that issues of civility will arise as well. Jytdog (talk) 17:47, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Rich Farmbrough
This should be declined. The first word of the request says it all:
- Yesterday...
If something that happened yesterday is deemed to be beyond the community's ability to resolve, then Heaven help Arbcom! (And Heaven help us all.)
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:55, 6 November 2017 (UTC).
Statement by Jc86035
This whole thing is a mess, and shows why this page has already gone back to the same editors yelling at the same WMF employees and developers because the people who don't like yelling as much are probably ignoring these discussions on the village pumps and elsewhere, because of the toxic environment and the low probability that they're actually going to solve anything out of arguing with mostly the same people.
Putting aside the discussion between the two editors in question, it's clear that there does need to be improvement in Wikidata policy, particularly in regards to sourcing statements from RSes and the bot approval process (and a myriad problems unrelated to this particular case). I think ArbCom should take this case, if only to spare editors from 50KB of arguing about the same old things. I also agree with the initial statements of BU Rob13 and Alanscottwalker. Jc86035 (talk) 04:00, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@Callanecc: Some examples of the same argument about the same thing (although not necessarily involving WMF employees on the pro-Wikidata side) are this TfD discussion and the one below it, this AN/I discussion, and probably more in the history of this page. (Toxic/unwelcoming environment includes Wikidata forums at times, but out of scope for this case.) Nothing gets resolved, because there is community consensus that Wikidata can be used, but there are issues which have obviously not been solved yet and which will probably be slowly fought over until the heat death of the universe at this rate. ArbCom has no jurisdiction over Wikidata but I would hope that things improve on Wikidata as well. Jc86035 (talk) 07:03, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by GRuban
@Rich Farmbrough: That is a point, but, you see, at that time:
- All our troubles seemed so far away
- Now it looks as though they're here to stay
Sorry, couldn't resist. More seriously, this is a long term, issue affecting the entire project, with an argument between experienced editors, and one important party being an administrator accused of using their powers to intimidate. No endorsement of whether that's the actual situation, but if there has ever been a case description that had Arbcom written all over it, that's it. Time for them to don their powdered wigs and earn their high pay. --GRuban (talk) 17:01, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by TonyBallioni
Per my statement below, I encourage the committee to hear this as a full case within the confines of existing policy, as a longterm dispute that the community has been unable to solve and will likely be unable to solve regardless of whether or not an RfC is launched. I think there is likely a case that can be addressed here within existing policy, and I urge the committee to look at it rather than pushing this off into what will likely be an RfC that gets little input beyond people already involved in the dispute. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:43, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'd like to further add here that I fully endorse Iridescent's comments below, and I think that a case would likely be the simplest way to address this, but whatever is done, it should be moderated and under the aegis of in some way ArbCom. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:42, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Montanabw
I think Arbcom should decline this case and simply state that the filing party and the party filed against need to remain civil. This issue is actually a WMF versus en.wiki situation and as such is beyond the purview of what ArbCom can do. To save time, I can almost guarantee what they WILL be stating two months from now:
- They will remind everyone of the civility policies
- They will admonish both parties and most likely caution multiple other participants for uncivil behavior
- They probably will have to ban someone who won't drop the stick
- They probably will impose some superficial restrictions on some of the other players
- They will say that use of wikidata-compliant syntax is to be decided on an article-by-article basis based on consensus of contributing editors
- They will say that WMF projects and tech are outside their scope of authority to address
So, I suggest that ArbCom cut to the chase, decline the case, issue trout at both parties and tell them to cool their jets and avoid the topic and each other for a week or two. As for Wikidata, there is a screaming need to make it something that normal editors can easily access and repair from article space without needing a computer science degree. I'm personally for the concept in theory, but implementation in practice has been a problem, most of which has been discussed exhaustively elsewhere. Montanabw 22:44, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by {Non-party}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
- Recuse since I've made a statement. GoldenRing (talk) 11:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Crosswiki issues: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <2/1/0>-Crosswiki_issues-2017-10-31T22:27:00.000Z">
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)
- Awaiting any additional statements, which should not contain this metaphor, which now comes into my head every time Wikidata is mentioned. More seriously, I'd appreciate thoughts on what a case could properly resolve. Would this be a user-conduct or admin-conduct case, or a "how should Wikidata be used on En-Wiki?" case? If the former, is there enough fodder here for a case? If the latter, would we be able to decide anything without creating policy, which ArbCom is generally not supposed to do? Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2017 (UTC)">
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- I bet there's someone out there with their favorite Wikidata item number tattooed on themselves... Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:11, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- Note: I have outlined a possible motion for consideration, in the section just below. Comments on the proposed motion, from both arbitrators and other editors, would be welcome. Thanks. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Floq's just here trying to market his eggshell-armor business. I wonder why that stuff doesn't sell nearly as well as the hammers? ;) I agree that it is rather unclear as written whether this is intended to be a user-conduct case or a more general one about wikidata - the title suggests the latter but most of the text seems focused on the details of one very recent (and perhaps stressful, but not, to my eyes, particularly arbcomworthy) disagreement. If this is meant to be a user-focused case, then it seems thin despite the length - in the absence of evidence of problems beyond "we had an argument the other day and it got heated", I'd decline that case. If this is meant to be a more general case about wikidata-related disputes, I am not sure the issue really falls under our purview, but could be convinced by a good (and please, brief) argument in favor. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:11, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Fram: Fair enough on the case name issue. I gather from your post that you did intend this to be a narrower, user-focused case? Opabinia regalis (talk) 16:42, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Fram: Thanks for the reply. I am still not convinced that a user-conduct case is necessary based on a single heated disagreement, and I am rarely further convinced by citing responses to a case request as evidence that the case is needed. I would decline a case about Ymblanter in particular. However, I am leaning toward accepting a case about the broader Wikidata dispute - comments in favor, by people who rarely turn up to advocate for more arbcom cases, are persuasive. But that's a bit awkward because I don't think Fram should have to stand as the filing party for a case with a significantly different scope than the one he envisioned (though I suppose the designation doesn't matter all that much in the end). Fram, what do you mean by your comment that such a case should start differently? On the subject of a potential "Wikidata integration dispute" case: I realize the scope is unclear, but nevertheless, there is a lot of commentary here that is unambiguously off-topic. If you think that Ymblanter made an error in his capacity as a bureaucrat at Wikidata, you're in the wrong place. If you think that Wikidata's bot approval process should be different, you're in the wrong place. If you think that Wikidata's sourcing policies should be different, you're in the wrong place. Those are Wikidata issues and you should take them up there. This is not wikidata:Complaints Department. A case request is supposed to be an opportunity to discuss whether we should take the case, not a forum in which to advocate for your side of the dispute The Wikidata issue is absolutely my least favorite kind of on-wiki dispute - the kind where two sides both have reasonable points, but have dug their heels in so hard that they've convinced themselves they're objectively correct and the other side is full of idiots. (If you're thinking "Well, I'm not like that! Maybe there's been a few regrettable mistakes on my part, but they're forgivable considering how unreasonable the other side is", then yes, I'm talking about you.) I'm not sure if that dynamic means we should take the case, because it's obviously not getting solved on its own, or that we should decline it, because the notoriously adversarial environment of an arbcom case will just make it worse. Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:01, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'm just jumping in here to pick up a point raised by Fram and OR. Firstly, though I think OR's comment about what this request are and are not is spot on (and I wish I had thought to say it :) ) as well as her comments on the nature of this dispute. Back to the reason I'm jumping in, my intention, if we are to open a case, would be a general case about conduct in relation to this case and not about the policy question itself (which we'd probably need to step around anyway). My intention here would be that we 'break the back of the dispute' by removing those who are most disruptive and railroading the process and maybe authorising some editors/admins to conduct a "moderated discussion" (possibly under discretionary sanctions) like we've done in the past (I think with the Tea Party Movement). I don't really have a problem with opening a case on somewhat of a tangent ("Wikidata integration dispute") to what was originally proposed (Ymblanter) as long as we're open with what our intention is and that we're seriously considering (and deciding on) the scope and parties (Fram's suggestions, plus maybe Ymblanter, look like a good starting point, remembering that we can add more as we go if needed). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:34, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- I might be interested in a general case but like Opabinia I'd have to be convinced that it is something within our remit. I don't yet see a compelling need for a user-related case. Doug Weller talk 14:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think GoldenRing's comments on the policy-related issue is pretty accurate, but is IMHO outside of the Committee's jurisdiction to decide (if there are other policy implications, that could obviously change my opinion here). I haven't yet read enough to decide whether there are sufficient conduct issues that the community has either tried to resolve or would be unable to solve. That's the direction I'd recommend statements go in. However, if there are already policies which might address the questions GoldenRing has raised, comments indicating them and their relevance would be useful. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
- I've been grappling with whether the Committee should become involved in this for a while. There are two areas which need to be considered, the first is whether the Committee has a part to play in the Wikidata on Misplaced Pages discussion/issue, and the second is whether there are sufficient behavioural issues which are serious enough or that the community is unable to solve.
- GoldenRing's comments on his talk page (thanks for the link Dank) are interesting (and I, personally, largely agree with his analysis), however, I don't see the Committee passing a final decision which effectively bans the use of content from Wikidata because it isn't verifiable. That's a decision which needs to be made by the community and ArbCom isn't going to wade into that before the community has discussed it and a consensus has emerged. That is, a proposed decision is eminently more likely to say 'the community needs to discuss this' rather than 'under current policy the use of Wikidata info is '. Based on all of that I don't see a part for ArbCom to play at this stage (maybe after the 2017 RfC, if there behavioural issues or if the issue still can't be resolved).
- The second consideration is whether there is a conduct issue which the community is unable to solve. Part of that consideration is also whether anyone actually breached a policy or guideline, the lack of policy concerning the inclusion of stuff from Wikidata on enwiki makes that murky. Whether or not WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BOT have been broken is a difficult question and one which an arbitration case could address, but I'm not sure that that's something the Committee could address as a decision in that direction would likely have the effect of creating policy about Wikidata on Misplaced Pages. Another element in this consideration is whether the behaviour of Ymblanter and Fram, plus anyone else people can demonstrate have edited disruptively in relation to this dispute, is serious or long-term enough to warrant a case. The big thing here is evidence as some comments don't prove that a case is necessary as they lack substantiation in the form of diffs and links.
- Now that I've said all of that, I'm voting to accept a case so that we can examine the behaviour of involved editors and remove (or restrict, etc) any editors who are disrupting the process. Having read and re-read the evidence and links from Iridescent and Ritchie333 (among others) I agree that there are enough behavioural issues (particularly around battleground conduct), and unsuccessful attempts by the community to resolve them, that the Committee's involvement could help. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:54, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- Questions for individuals:
- @Jytdog: How would a case "establish a more clear process for pre-approving uses of Wikidata" without creating policy by fiat?
- @HJ Mitchell: Could you please provide evidence to support those aspersions?
- @Ritchie333: You say that there are "more substantial grounds for a case, but it's spread out over more users", to assist with the development of a more comprehensive list of parties, who do you think should be parties to the case? This is really @everyone to provide evidence (diffs/links & explanation) of other editors whose conduct also bears examination.
- Thanks all. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:10, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks Jytdog.
Thanks Ritchie333. Unfortunately by their nature (can't make findings against non-parties) arbitration cases really need to single people out. Sometimes that will develop as evidence is submitted and editors are added as parties during the case, other times (especially when the case which is opened isn't exactly the same as the request) cases start additional parties. In fact, in a case like this, it might be better that the case is opened with more parties is at the start as that is closer to what the purpose is looking like it'll be (break the back of the dispute rather than focus on two editors specifically).
Thanks for your comments Jc86035, your first paragraph is one of the big reasons I accepted the case. As I said above though, I'm interested in who the "same editors yelling" are, if you're willing to present that with some evidence it would be helpful. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:46, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks Jytdog.
- Accept Since the conduct issue has been raised, it should be discussed, but the main point is the effect of edits made on enWP from another Wikiproject. I think the policy is clear that we run our own project at enWP just as much as they do atWikidata, and the question of what data should be imported here is for enWP to decide. The question of whether someone making edits on another project with the knowledge and intent of their being entered on enWP againsy enWP policy can be dealt with here if they happen to be here, is involved in other situations also. I think we have previous decided that we can in extreme situation, and the question of whether this is one of them is a proper one for arb com. (and yes, I would say the same about Commons). DGG ( talk ) 22:17, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
- Decline - MontanaBW highlights the course accurately I think. Am considering the motion below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Waiting a bit for some more comments on Newyorkbrad's motion below before making a decision on whether to accept this case. While it does seem that there may be some conduct problems here that we could address, a lot of the bigger problems here are problems we cannot solve. As a few people have already pointed out, we can't tell Wikidata how to run their shop. We also can't decide how Misplaced Pages should incorporate information from Wikidata—that kind of policymaking is up to the community. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:13, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Possible motion for discussion
Please note that at this time, I am posting this as a possible motion for discussion purposes. It is not yet ready for voting. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Possible motion: The Arbitration Committee has considered the request for arbitration titled "Cross-Wiki issues" and decides as follows:
- (A) Whether and how information from Wikidata should be used on English Misplaced Pages is an ongoing subject of editorial disputes, and is not specifically addressed by current English Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. Aspects of these disputes may include disagreements over who should decide whether and when Wikidata content should be included, the standards to be used in making those decisions, and the proper role, if any, of the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) in connection with this issue.
- (B) To allow the English Misplaced Pages community to decide the policy issues involved, the Arbitration Committee recommends that a request for comment (RfC) be opened. This RfC should be led by a team of three experienced, uninvolved administrators who are not currently identified with any "side" or position in Wikidata-related disputes, should be reasonably publicized, and should be open for at least 30 days.
- (C) While the RfC is being prepared and it is pending, editors should refrain from taking any steps that might create a fait accompli situation (i.e., systematic Wikidata-related edits on English Misplaced Pages that would be difficult to reverse without undue effort if the RfC were to decide that a different approach should be used).
- (D) Editors should abide by high standards of user conduct, including remaining civil and avoiding personal attacks, in the RfC and in all other comments on Wikidata-related issues. Editors who are knowledgeable and/or passionate about the issues are expected to participate and share their expertise and opinions, but no individual editor's comments should overwhelm or "bludgeon" the discussion. The administrators leading the RfC may excuse any editor who repeatedly or severely misbehaves on the RfC page(s) from further participation in the RfC.
- (E) The request for an arbitration case is declined at this time, but may be reopened if issues suitable for ArbCom remain following the RfC, or if the RfC is not opened within 15 days after this motion passes.
Comments on possible motion by arbitrators
- I've proposed the above for consideration and comment. It is not yet ready for voting. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:57, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Agree pretty much with points A, B, C, D and E - D can be addressed by structuring the RfC well with maximum scope for quantifying succinct points of view accurately, and minimum scope for walls of text, and admins prepared to collapse walls of text that detract or obfuscate the process and hinder further discussion. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:52, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Iridescent: - we can remedy the wall-of-text or discussional mush at the outset by establishing firmly that these sorts of posts will be collapsed if the moderators feel they detract from or obfuscate discussion or discourage other posts. One could even put this in bold text for emphasis.... or a different colour Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:55, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Agree with the concept, suggest hosted on (for example) a subpage of WP:ACN with non-threaded discussion and clerking. Adjudicated by three unaligned editors, need not be admins. Risks setting a precedent for other controversial RfCs - but we're not otherwise going to get to a coherent position on this topic, so it's worth a try. -- Euryalus (talk) 06:04, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Iridescent: - we can remedy the wall-of-text or discussional mush at the outset by establishing firmly that these sorts of posts will be collapsed if the moderators feel they detract from or obfuscate discussion or discourage other posts. One could even put this in bold text for emphasis.... or a different colour Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:55, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'd rather just have the case and try to solve the conduct issues as I believe that it would better position the RfC in the best way to succeed.
If we are to go down this path though, I agree with A, B, C and E. However, I don't agree with the wording of D. "Expecting" that people will participate is maybe pushing a bit too hard on a voluntary project. Also, if we're going go down the RfC path, where going to need to moderators some serious backing to deal with the conduct issues we'll be pushing onto them. My preferred way to do this would be to authorise the moderators to either use discretionary sanctions or specify a more limited version. That limited version could look something along the lines of moderators being authorised to issue section (specific parts of the RfC), page (whole RfC) or topic (Wikidata on Misplaced Pages in general) bans (and they can block to enforce those), plus they have full authority over the RfC itself, which includes the ability to unilaterally close (determine consensus), hat or remove comments, discussions and threads. Decisions they make would be covered by the standard enforcement and appeal provisions. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:43, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Comments on possible motion by other editors
- I really like this because it seeks to avoid the undesirable situation where a policy decision is made by getting the other side topic banned or blocked rather than actually refuting the arguments. It really happens far too often that a policy or content dispute gets couched as behavioral. I hope this motion is successful and leads to more resolutions like this. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 18:16, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- I like this in a way, but I also think that like whatever the bot policy RfC(s) that have been at the root of some of the recent ArbCom cases, what you're going to get is the overwhelming majority of the editing community with their eyes glazed over at this RfC because most of us simply don't care or know enough to care about Wikidata, and its going to turn into a complete mess with the different sides of the dispute making their points and arguing to a stalemate while the rest of the community ignores it because its both 1) extremely boring to most people 2) difficult to comprehend whether it is the end-of-Misplaced Pages-as-we-know-it® in a good or a bad way and 3) full of editors who have very strong opinions on it so it makes neutral editors simply not want to be involved.Because of these factors, I think sorting out some of the broader issues within the framework of existing policy and looking at how it affects behavioral issues on the English Misplaced Pages are better examined in an ArbCom case, because the community has failed to effectively deal with this itself, and the community is unlikely to be able to deal with it through an RfC. A structured format such as a full case would be beneficial here. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:37, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Just to comment: Iridescent said what I was thinking better than I ever could, and I fully endorse that view. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:02, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Callanecc: I think your conditions are right as to what would be needed for the RfC to be successful, at the same time, as you mentioned a case would be a more straightforward way of addressing the conduct issues. It also has the benefit of already being structured and everyone knowing the rules. The main reason for my comment though is this: any moderators that would be appointed would be acting on authority delegated from ArbCom and would be unelected by the community (and even if we had an "RfC to advise on the appointment of moderators" it would likely suffer from the same problems I noted above about a general RfC). While the committee may be criticized (often times unfairly in my opinion), it is still the single body on the English Misplaced Pages that is elected by over 1000 members of the community and thus has been entrusted with the ability to run a structured dispute resolution case by the community as a whole. This is in many ways a moral authority that no group of moderators could possibly have, and helps to ensure the outcome is seen as legitimate, which is an issue we have many times with RfC closes, even when done by a closing panel. While I agree with you 100% on the steps that need to be taken if an RfC is to be done, for all of the reasons I mentioned above, I think a case is vastly preferable. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:16, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- Sort of. I support the principle of forcing all those involved in this discussion to lay their cards on the table and come to an enforced consensus rather than fighting an ongoing guerrilla war across project space in the hope of getting each other blocked. Per my comments above, I don't believe a traditional RFC is the way to go; a discussion will need to be moderated to prevent it degenerating into two camps posting walls of text at each other (see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes/Workshop for an idea of what an unmoderated RFC would look like), and it ought to be on the understanding that "whatever is agreed here will be enforced" to prevent endless appeals and wikilawyering. Whether or not it's done as a formal case or as an arbcom-controlled Royal Commission Under Warrant From King Jimmy in the shape of a glorified workshop doesn't really matter, but it needs someone with the authority to issue arbitrary "shut up and get to the point" warnings, and IMO only either the arbs themselves or a group of neutrals explicitly given dictatorial powers over how the RFC is conducted would have a hope of preventing it becoming a back-and-forth between the usual suspects. ‑ Iridescent 18:53, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Casliber Which is precisely why it needs to be a formal process under either Arbcom's or the WMF's aegis, and the WMF won't touch it. Unless someone is explicitly mandated to hat or remove anything they feel needs hatting or removing, to say "shut up, you've said enough" and if necessary to impose word limits, any collapsing will just either be reverted or followed by an endless stream of "and another thing…"s. It's not ABF on my part to presume this, when we know what a discussion between just a small subset of the people likely to participate in any RFC looks like if it's allowed to run unmoderated (and note that you're just seeing the current threads there, there are ten archives as well). ‑ Iridescent 23:06, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- If this happens, then it might be worth noting that a draft of an RfC already exists at Misplaced Pages:Wikidata/2017 RfC draft - this was started by me a month ago, and it's still iterating towards something usable (it's far from ready yet). TBH, I quite like the idea of this being taken over by a team of three uninvolved admins. However, I'd suggest saying a month (at least) rather than 15 days to prepare it, given the complexities here. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:57, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- I am not a fan -- (as I said, ENWP is institutionally ignorant of Wikidata) we simply do not have an agreed upon factual understanding, eg. - what wikidata is, what happens with it and why, what has happened on ENWP as a result, etc. -- if we had an agreed upon consensus on the underlying facts (or at least an assembled agreed body of evidence) - we might be able to then go forward, profitably. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:24, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- I concur with Iridescent's comments Dax Bane 20:19, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- I am afraid that most editors are too ignorant to understand the effects of transcluding information from outside, and the extend of that. All of that is 'case-by-case', but the case-by-case results in fait accomply situations already that are hard to return back on (it likely will need massive bot runs to keep/get data, followed by massive cleanup). My expectation is that an RfC will not result in a consensus situation (hard push from hardliners on each side, with the general public considering 'mwaagh, it is fine, I don't see problems'), and that we will return here (not that that will resolve anything, ArbCom will only decide on editor conduct). --Dirk Beetstra 06:30, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- It's worth a shot. The RfC which is being drafted is not comprehensive, but some ideas from it may be used of course (I may perhaps draft an RfC in my userspace to give an idea of what I would consider the necessary questions). I would ask ArbCom, if this motion would get accepted, to make an exception for a) infobox world heritage site, where a RfC has just concluded that it should no longer use Wikidata and where we are working on changing the articles to non-Wikidata infoboxes: stopping this until the end of the proposed RfC seems unproductive; and b) the discussion which is ongoing about the use of Wikidata descriptions in mobile, for which an RfC was had in March(?) but where the definitive solution is now being discussed with the WMF. Halting that discussion, which has already been painfully slow, for another two months or so would be a pity. Apart from those, I guess there is no need for new fragmentary discussions when a general RfC is happening. Fram (talk) 07:58, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Nathan B. Forrest
Initiated by Azarbarzin (talk) at 21:48, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Involved parties
- Azarbarzin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
- Smmurphy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
I added a reference to Nathan Bedford Forrest regarding the 47 black confederate soldiers who served under his command during the civil war. The first deletion by user user:A D Monroe III left the following reasoning
reason to include lengthy quotes from the primary source. Secondary sources are much preferred.
I then abbreviated my following edit with secondary sources as evident by the history page: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nathan_Bedford_Forrest&action=history
It was also deleted by another user user:Joefromrandb, with this reasoning: Multiple editors have deemed this lengthy and undue
Finally, I just added the picture of Louis Napoleon Nelson by citing the articles in & -- This one was deleted by user:Smmurphy without any reason stated.
I proceeded to his talk page and left a cordial message inquiring for his reason(s). To my surprise, he/she had deleted my question/request also. The section I added my citations was pertaining the kkk, and the inclusion of black confederates in Forrest's regiment/brigade seemed reasonably relevant to me, as attested by many of his recent biographers. Azarbarzin (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
References
Statement by Azarbarzin
Statement by Smmurphy
I'm not sure exactly which issues this request refers to, my behavior or the content of the page about Forrest. But to clarify things for anyone reading this, here is the diff of me removing a new comment by User:Azarbarzin from an archive of my talk page. Here is the diff of me pasting that comment to my talk page. Here is a diff of me replying at my talk page, with a failed attempt to ping user. Here is the diff where I fix the ping (notice that it is after I was notified of this request). And here is the location of the discussion of the edit to Forrest's page Talk:Nathan Bedford Forrest#Image of Louis Napoleon Nelson (diff - ). Smmurphy 21:57, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Mendaliv
This appears to be a case about a one-off content dispute where the parties have not really had any discussion at the article talk page. Even if there is a behavioral component, it does not appear that any lesser dispute resolution has been tried beyond a user talk message. Some lesser dispute resolution is necessary in this case. This case lies outside the Committee's jurisdiction. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 22:31, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by TomStar81
I've no stake in this case whatsoever, but as a procedural observation I would note that Azarbarzin has not notified Smmurphy of the ARBCOM opening, as is evidenced both by the talk page and by the absence of the link in the outline showing that all parties have been notified. That alone suggests that this case should be declined since proper procedure for filing was not adhered to. TomStar81 (Talk) 19:59, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- @TomStar81: I'm illegally posting this in your section, due solely to laziness: . If you want to just delete this, I'm fine with my comment being deleted too.--Floquenbeam (talk) 20:11, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- My Phd. was in procrastination (gotta a b.s. in bs, too). As long as it gets there I don't suppose anyone really cares :) TomStar81 (Talk) 20:28, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by {Non-party}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Nathan B. Forrest: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/6/0>-Nathan_B._Forrest-2017-11-06T22:57:00.000Z">
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)
- decline as premature - we have other venues for this WP:RFC being one of them Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:57, 6 November 2017 (UTC)"> ">
- No. We are the last resort, not the first or even second. Drmies (talk) 23:06, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Decline. No sign that other dispute resolution has been attempted. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Decline - content dispute, which is best resolved on the article talkpage (as is now occurring). -- Euryalus (talk) 05:53, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- Decline as this dispute should go through other dispute resolution options before arbitration, which is often a lengthy and contentious process. This doesn't imply your dispute is unimportant, but merely that arbitration isn't the best way to resolve it. I suggest you look at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution, where there are several kinds of dispute resolution that could be useful. For the content side of the dispute, I would suggest opening a discussion on the Dispute resolution noticeboard, and if there are further problems you could try request for comment on content. For user conduct concern, I'd first suggest trying to work together to solve the issue. If conduct issues persist, presenting the incident for outside opinions on the administrators' noticeboard for incidents. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- ‘’’Decline’’’ Doug Weller talk 20:30, 7 November 2017 (UTC)