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I know you have other things on your plate right now--hope you are doing okay with all of that--and being bugged by all the nonsense on Wiki isn't at the top of your list, but I still thought you might be interested in knowing about this. You tried to be encouraging and deal in good faith, and I value that. I wasn't the only person who had these issues. That actually makes me feel a little bit better about Misplaced Pages overall. It may take a bit but they do get around to weeding out some of this. That's a good thing to know. We made a lot of progress on the Bible article--once there was no more obstruction--and I moved on and did a second article. How about that? I am cooking now! Hope all is well with you and that your family is good, your job is good, and the holidays won't be too stressful. Happy Holidays! https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Jytdog_Ban_breaking/request_of_Enforcement_and_further_actions Jenhawk777 (talk) 10:37, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello User:Jenhawk777! I'm glad you feel a sense of closure for the one article and I'm glad you've considered sticking around. As for the link, that's all a bit outside my usual area of experience and I'll let the parties involved hash it out themselves. I wish nothing but the best to both you and your "obstructor" over at the article. May you both have a long and prosperous and productive Wiki-career. It's been a good couple of weeks for my family -- this weekend was mostly taken up with tearing out carpet and putting in new laminate flooring at my parents' house with a younger brother of mine. I've moved two different pianos this week for two different sets of people. Over the next week I'll be juggling a variety of things with the need to finally start unpacking all the various boxes that my things are in. The good news is that moving twice in a fairly short time period has helped me to get rid of a lot of useless junk I don't really need. The backlog of things to do out in non-Wiki world is still substantial, but moving toward getting under control. I look forward to returning as soon as I can responsibly do so.

Without commenting on any specific case, I'll say that overall the Wiki way of handling conflict is incredibly inefficient but generally, in the very long run, produces good decisions. This is an excellent environment for practicing patience and dispute resolution skills. Just out of curiosity, what's your other article? And since you've been friendly enough to inquire about my own life, how is yours going? Alephb (talk) 23:47, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I am not participating in it either--just letting them hash it out themselves as you say. I started watching his talk page when we were communicating just before you left and haven't turned it off. I get a notification when sections of his talk-page are archived. This is the fourth one of these noticeboard announcements so far--that I've seen--but this one was worth remarking on since this guy was really mad! No one else has called for banning! Kind of extreme!

What I have taken away from this is that he is regularly involved in one controversy after another, but that it is his manner and not that he is necessarily in the wrong. My bottom line remains what it was--to listen and learn and try to see past that high-handedness to what the actual issue is. He may not explain--but if I can't figure it out I don't deserve to be here--what he says may even be wrong--(he was wrong about the definition of theology)--but he certainly knows Wiki-style and he was right that my writing wasn't fitting it. After that big hassle with him over what theology is and isn't, I ended up moving almost everything I wrote into the theology section after all! I could eventually see he was just right in a roundabout way. It is fair to say his style of not-communicating is contentious--it seems to constantly gets him into conflicts with others--but I remain of the opinion that he is a good editor, and he understands Wiki. So. I learned from all of it. I just thought this one was really vehement!

I feel like I haven't been on Wiki long enough to know whether they are efficient at handling conflict--letting people attempt to be grown-ups and work it out themselves is very probably the best approach there is--but I can certainly see how it could all work out in the long run. My dispute resolution skills are reasonable but my patience is often thin--maybe even a little see-through... :-) But I am beginning to find my footing here, so it will be harder to ruffle my feathers after this I think. So that's a big plus for me! And for everyone who has to talk to me!

I am so glad to hear things are well with your family! A younger brother--you have more than one? God bless your mother! I have spent most of my life moving so I know exactly what you mean about it helping get rid of unnecessary junk too, but every now and then, after dumping truckloads, there will be one item I wish I had kept. If I had a way to identify it ahead of time I would fix that! But I am related to two people who have trouble ever throwing anything away so I have found myself all the way to the other end--haven't used it in a week?--out it goes!  :-) My family is well. Do you celebrate the holidays? We go for it big time here so there will be tons of food and company and I will be exhausted but happy.

This is my other article-- --it was apparently just as contentious a couple years ago and we missed it! :-) I added about a dozen of the little sub-sections I guess, and so far no one has reverted any of it though someone did come along and check my references. It's quiet there now--so perhaps it will be quiet at the Bible article soon. I should probably expand my area of interest but this is what my degrees are in and it's really all I know! Maybe Wiki doesn't like specialists but that's what I am. I'll survive or I won't--but in the meantime--it has overall been an amazing experience. Thank you for how you have helped. I hope you and yours have a wonderful holiday season.Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I've got five younger brothers, and three younger sisters. Your style of dealing with junk sounds like my mother's. If she had her way, she and my father might be living in a studio apartment, cooking everything on a single hot plate, transferring the food to a single shared plate, and then eating cross-legged on the floor so she doesn't have to deal with having a table around. I exaggerate, a little, but it is true that when they moved to their current home she was excited by how small the new kitchen was. In a family of eleven, someone with her talent for reducing junk is a must. I've mostly inherited her tendencies -- when I talk about how much useless junk I have, I'm mostly talking about books I'll never read again, clothing I won't wear, a bread-pan I never use to cook in: little things. I have a lot less junk than most people but a lot more than I'd like to have. All the actual moving took under ten hours this time: one trip with a cargo van, two trips with my car. Now I just have to get all my stuff out the contractor bags I haphazardly stuffed it all in and find everything.

We tend to have fairly modest holidays: the massive family gathers (we've got several generations of large families on both sides -- one annual reunion draws from a pool of well over 100 descendants of my great-grandfather by his two wives (he was a widower, not a bigamist)), eats food, sits around talking all day, and attends the various religious services depending on the holiday (for the religious members and the others who tag along), and so on. The holidays aren't fancy affairs, but they're the highlight of the year. Now that the oldest six are all out of the house and living away from our home town, the holidays are an important time for us to see some of the siblings who don't get together too often.

Misplaced Pages likes specialists. Misplaced Pages just tends to be skeptical of people who specialize in one thing, arrived recently, and repeatedly get into arguments on multiple. If your other articles tend to go smoothly, you should be fine. I myself specialize: upward of 90% of my edits are to pages involving the Hebrew Bible, and I've never been sanctioned in any way, despite spending more time than I'd like in the various dispute-resolution places. My goal (though I'm sure I don't always succeed) is to treat more experienced editors as my superiors and less experienced editors as my equal, and to pick my battles. It seems to have worked, so far. Alephb (talk) 17:46, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Okay--this really made me smile. :-) Your mom sounds amazing. I think I would really like her. Actually, your whole family sounds amazing! I grew up isolated from any extended family since my parents were unable to get along with anyone else including each other. I don't say that with bitterness--anymore--but with humor now. I have learned it is possible to learn more from difficulties than ease I think--though not necessary to create it in order to do that! As a result, I have worked extremely hard on learning negotiation skills--I hope to someday employ them properly on Misplaced Pages!  :-) Actually, you-know-who has shown back up on the Bible article and it's pretty bad. I think I responded well--we'll see how long I can keep it up! I will keep you and your family in mind, doing things for one another, gathering together, and think of how much patience and skill that must require and I will try to do good too. :-)

I don't see yet how Misplaced Pages demonstrates skepticism of those who repeatedly get into disagreements since my "obstructor" certainly qualifies as doing exactly that, and when I tried to turn to them for help they denied me. I need more experience spread out over places where this kind of thing doesn't happen. Oh wait! You said that!  :-) I have answered him but I am also taking your advice and moving on and doing more. I will try to pick something obscure like Graebergs says.  :-)

I will try to pick my battles but I feel like I have spent way too much time being required to defend myself not just my statements. I do have to be careful not to attack in return. My instinct and my past mean I have to fight my tendency to fight back. Say a prayer for me! :-) I am not sure I will be capable of measuring up to your standard where this one person is concerned. I will try. You're a tough act to follow you know? I'm sure it's all your amazing mother's fault--she went and passed that amazing-ness on didn't she? I am trying to be good.  :-)

I will think of you and your amazing family at the holidays and be with you there in spirit hoping you all have a wonderful time filled with all the love and true joy of being connected by love. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. However, while I'd be happy to discuss almost anything Misplaced Pages-related with you, I don't think I'll be commenting any more on the conflict at The Bible and Violence because of how unproductive it's gotten. If you are determined to stick with working on that article, I'd recommend seeking a WP:RFC. If anything can break the stalemate, it would be something like that. Otherwise, I'll leave things to you, Graebergs, and Jytdog to hash out. Alephb (talk) 03:04, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh it's gotten much worse here in the last couple of days. The stalemate was broken for the last month--Jytdog left and so we worked--without conflict. Grabergs and I had made all kinds of progress to the point we felt removing the tags was appropriate, so she did, and she told me the next step was nominating a 'good article,' so I did, and Jytdog showed up like an angry god talking about how bad everything I had written was. I am being polite and cooperative in response--so far keeping my cool. He is so vehemently hateful of anything that is not negative enough about Christianity to suit him, it is sometimes difficult to separate the reasonable points from the vitriol. Someone else showed up and said 'Jytdog, why are you so angry' to him, but I doubt they will be back again after his response. I felt very discouraged last night and thought, I will just quit Misplaced Pages, being bullied is just awful, but I had a good night's sleep, I am feeling a little stronger today, I tried to make the changes I guessed were what he objected to, and I put the material he had removed back in the article. If he reverts it again, I will post an RFC. Of course, that will do no good if no third parties show up, which is what happened in the past when I requested third party comments, but I will go through the process as best I can--for awhile anyway. I don't know how much bullying I can take while everyone else looks the other way. We'll see.Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:59, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Grabergs is a he. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:44, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

In the Hebrew Bible

I just read the new intro and it seems great, but I have some questions. I hope you won't mind my asking since I am still learning Wiki's style. I get completely what you said about Baker's. It makes perfect sense. It was a careless choice. I won't use it again. But I have specific questions here. One of the things Grabergs guessed that Jytdog didn't like was that I used two quotes to start two of the paragraphs and she said that wasn't the Wiki way, but here you have used a quote from one guy and discussed what Jytdog would say to me was theology and yet that's okay. Is there any way to explain it to me that I can understand the difference well enough to do what you did without doing what I did? Or does the difference really just come down to how much Jytdog clearly hates Christianity and Christians and especially me? Now he is talking about removing votes from the survey--can he do that? And yes, please, send me references for the definitions of herem and hamas that would be satisfactory.

Thank you for showing up and participating when I know it probably wasn't easy. I admire you for it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:50, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Where have I used a quote and discussed what Jytdog would call theology? I'm at a little bit of a loss to understand what you're referring to here. If you're referring to the new intro to the "In the Hebrew Bible" section that you really like, then Jytdog wrote that, not me.

Where has Jytdog talked about removing votes from surveys? Could you find a diff or quote of him saying that and show me? I'm hoping you're misunderstanding him here; Jytdog can be prickly but I have my doubts about whether he would remove people's votes unless there was a good reason to. It would be very disappointing (and I think unlikely) for him to manipulate votes that way.

I think it's a bit much to accuse Jytdog of hating Christians. If you were to dig around a bit through the various "drama boards" and find, for example, that Jytdog only has confrontational run-ins with Christians, then you might be on to something. But I can guarantee you haven't done that, because that's not what you would have found.

If you just want bare dictionary references on hamas and herem, you can find that hamas refers to both violence and wrondoing on page 256 of David Clines, The Dictionary of Classical Hebrew, Volume III, Sheffield Academic Press, 1996. You can find herem defined as "excluded from profane use and devoted to Y for destruction" on page 319 of the same. Alephb (talk) 06:37, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, apparently you didn't!

Revision as of 23:18, 15 December 2017 it's not quite as bad as I first thought--he says removing dummy votes--but it's just my statements he wants removed. Is it okay for him to do that on an Rfc he didn't write?

I thought you wrote the new intro to the Hebrew Bible. That he wrote it makes the content make even less sense to me then. I am so far unable to see how it is different in concept from the quote from Siebert that I had originally. I am trying to figure it out. Any help would be appreciated. You explain things well.

We will have to respectfully disagree on that one. It isn't necessary for him to "only" have conflicts with Christians to prove his extreme personal feelings, it is only necessary that he react with vitriol when he does. Jytdog has many different confrontations, including warnings from the noticeboard on an average of once every six weeks or so. They all complain of the same behaviors generally. He has made several statements that seem "extreme" to me since I started on Wiki. I am not on a personal mission to take over Misplaced Pages for Christians. I can't help but be exasperated by such crazy accusations. I can't imagine where else that kind of thing springs from. I could be wrong of course, but that is the impression he has given me. Others are noticing his hostility. Someone asked him--up in talk before the Rfc--why are you so angry? That indeed is the question. If it isn't what it looks like--why is he so angry? Why is so much of it directed exclusively at me? Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:09, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

I looked for that dictionary on googlebooks and it isn't there. Where else might I look for it? Should I buy a new dictionary. I started out using Strongs --which I own but it's old--and was told that is not considered good anymore. So I switched to online sources and was told Biblestudytools is suspect, so I erased them, but Baker's is Evangelical apparently and not good and I can't find this book on-line. I need a good dependable reusable source that everyone can accept. I can buy one. This one is 1996--is there a newer version? Are there any others you would recommend? Do you speak Hebrew? My Hebrew is terrible. I have a friend in Israel who makes fun of me all the time. At least you haven't actually fallen into fits of laughter yet. But what's a little ridicule among friends--right? Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:18, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Let me start with your first comment. I'll do dictionaries after.

I really don't know what the "rules" are about cleaning up RFC's. But I'm relieved to hear no one was trying to remove actual votes -- just very much non-standard comments formatted as votes. The way you had it, it looked like you were trying to vote three different ways, and it needed to be cleaned up one way or another.

I don't know about the Siebert quote. Did Jytdog say he objected to using Siebert?

Let me put this "hatred of Christians" bit another way. Jytdog has looked at a number of your edits and sees, if I understand him correctly, some kind of "hellish much" anti-Semitism. I don't buy it, because I would need to see some kind of actual evidence of anti-Semitism before I buy that kind of accusation. Are your edits motivated by anti-Semitism? Hell if I know. Perhaps you are sitting next to a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as I write this. But I object to such an accusation until he can come up with some kind of evidence.

You have looked at a number of Jytdog's edits and see, if I understand it correctly, "hatred of Christians." I don't buy it, because I would need to see some kind of actual evidence of Christian-hatred before I buy that kind of accusation. Are his edits motivated by hatred of Christians. Hell if I know. Perhaps he is torturing a consecrated eucharistic wafer and laughing about the death of Jesus as we speak. But I object to such an accusation until you can come up with some kind of evidence.

In general, it is very, very difficult to understand the motives of people we're talking to online. And, on top of that, it is a matter of Misplaced Pages policy that we're not to speculate about negative motives without evidence. You've certainly got evidence that he's been uncivil toward you, no doubt. If you have evidence that religious hatred is causing the incivility, then we'd have something to talk about. Alephb (talk) 07:32, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

When it comes to dictionaries, probably the best-accepted one for Hebrew words is HALOT, the Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament. There's a little version of it called Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, that can be found for 15 bucks on Amazon, if you want to buy something. Unless you're planning to be a real Hebrew fanatic, that should probably meet all your dictionary needs when it comes to just simple definitions.

My own personal favorite, the Dictionary of Classical Hebrew would cost over a week of my wages. It is also available for free in PDF form on Library Genesis, but as I am not an expert in copyright law, I wouldn't venture to say whether it would be legal for you to download in whatever country you live in. My understanding is that no human being has ever been legally punished for downloading a PDF in the United States, but I'm not a lawyer and can't tell you what to do there.

If you're just looking for Misplaced Pages editing help with definition, I'd do something like type in "herem warfare" on Google Books. You'll get all sorts of good book references, not to dictionaries but, even better, to scholars discussing the term at length. Unfortunately, the existence of Hamas in the Gaza Strip will really interfere with a search like "hamas violence," but for almost all Hebrew terms Google Books will likely have everything you need, even if not in dictionaries.Alephb (talk) 07:44, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you are right and it isn't all Christians he hates--it's just me. This started at Christianity and violence then moved here. I attempted to get some help from admin at one point and his response was completely about me being a Christian and wanting to push my point of view.

I realize it is hard to discern the motives of people right next to us and especially difficult in a purely print medium, but there have been a lot of comments in the last six months, and they have all been pretty hostile, and it has kind of accumulated for me. I will start keeping a record. God forbid that I should ever need it for anything.

When given a specific example--if my point of view shows up in my writing--like your example about Baker's, when have I ever argued about removing it? That was perfectly reasonable and helpful--and not hostile. Jytdog writes "this is bad, chock full of bad, it should be moved to Jesuspedia" and how can anyone defend that as helpful, in good faith or not evidencing bias? I just want to do the work. I want to do a good job. I don't have ulterior motives as Jytdog has accused me of having. I don't have an agenda--I am not trying to take over or influence anything. I am just trying to write a fair and reasonable article on the Bible.

Of course I did that research on Googlebooks. That's where I get almost all the references I got. Jytdog doesn't know but I did the referencing for what Grabergs wrote on four of the five books covered. I wrote and referenced another by myself. Can you tell which? If not, perhaps all my writing isn't completely chock full of badness. But he knows I wrote those first paragraphs on the categories of violence definitions. The fact it is getting different treatment indicates bias to me--perhaps it just indicates those sectiopns really are extraordinarily badly written. Idk. It's all very discouraging. My options seem to be that he hates Christians, he just hates me, or that I really am a bad writer. I think I'll sign off for awhile. I'm sorry you got sucked into this. Jenhawk777 (talk) 08:23, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

My options seem to be that he hates Christians, he just hates me, or that I really am a bad writer. Or you are the new kid in a very rough neighborhood, who jumped right in to one of the toughest ongoing conflicts the site has, and then decided to keep wrestling with one of Misplaced Pages's prickliest experienced editors over one article for six months, all the while wearing your beliefs about religion on your sleeve. And because Misplaced Pages is a site where no article is truly finished, any conflict has the potential to last until one person or the other backs down. Depending on your tactics, Misplaced Pages can be either completely conflict-free or nothing but one unenending conflict. A completely conflict-free strategy would be to edit a variety of articles and just move on from any article where you encounter resistance. A completely conflict-filled strategy would be to only edit the single article where you've found resistance, and keep at it forever. We all have to choose how much online arguing is worth it for us. It's sort of baked into the nature of Misplaced Pages that final resolutions to problems rarely appear. In the long run, happy Misplaced Pages editors are the ones who either have a very high tolerance for conflict, or else have a strong ability to move on when an article gets too unproductive.

I hope things get better for you.Alephb (talk) 18:20, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

I've moved on twice now. The first time it seemed like he followed me. The second time I just left. But it doesn't really solve anything doesn't it? Flight is always an option in any conflict and I agree sometimes it is the wisest one--but it isn't always the wise option. We have to reserve judgment on which approach is best because every circumstance is different. I am trying to both not fight and not run, but you may be right, that may be impossible because the dichotomy is inherent in the environment here. I take it you think no matter how he behaves this is basically my fault for not walking away, but apparently, since I have tried that, I can walk away but probably should also accept not coming back. My interest in the article itself would be done. Well so be it. Good bye Aleph. It's been nice knowing you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:16, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

It's not that I'm thinking of it as a matter of fault. If he were coming to me for advice, I'd advise him the same way: that the conflict isn't worth it and he'd be best off moving on, especially given how emotionally heated this seems to be for him. It's just that he's not been coming to me for advice, so if it looks like I'm being hard on you it's just because you keep asking me for advice. Otherwise I'd just mind my own business here. I've been in a similar position to you before (not with the same people) -- spending months on a single argument on an article (or closely related group of articles), getting nowhere, and going in circles. I've done it more than once. It's extremely frustrating, and it's why I've changed my editing strategies. I probably edit about 100 articles for each one I encounter any serious resistance on. For that 1% of articles, I try to realistically assess my chances, and often just cut my losses. Even if I give in every single time I encounter resistance (which I don't quite do) that means I'm getting my way 99% of the time, because on 99% of pages there's just no one who wants to argue. Argumentative editors don't follow me around because I'm mostly not wiling to play the game with them, and there's always other people who are willing to give them the arguments they're looking for.

Of course, I have trouble living up to my own editing ideals, but I think it would be amazing if I could train myself not to argue at all. I could get enormous amounts of editing done with very little hassle, and leave all the arguing for people who like arguing.

To use a religious metaphor, I'd like to be like Isaac when he was digging his wells. He dug a well, some people came in and filled it in, reverting his changes. He moved on. He dug another well, and the bastards filled it in again. He moved on, and finally they left him alone and he got to dig a well and keep it dug. If Isaac had chosen to defend his wells, he wouldn't necessarily be doing anything wrong. It just might not be worth it when there's so many spots out there where people would leave him alone to dig another well. And in the long run, I don't worry that the argumentative editors will "get away with it" if I don't stand up to them. There are always other argumentative editors they will eventually lock horns with.

Misplaced Pages needs many different personality types. Your personality type is one of those it needs more of. You're civil, you're willing to learn, and very willing to work with others. So while I'll admit that I would be relieved to see you give up on that individual article you're having trouble on, I think there's definitely a place for you at Misplaced Pages if you want it. And if you don't, I'd be disappointed to see you go, but that would be understandable too. Misplaced Pages's a rough neighborhood. Not everyone wants to hang out here. Alephb (talk) 01:08, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

My advice to her would be is that Misplaced Pages is heavily biased for mainstream scholarship. So, if she wants to win a debate, she has to do that by citing mainstream scholarly works. She is entitled to be evangelical, but for Misplaced Pages being evangelical is just a subjective religious belief among many other subjective beliefs. Misplaced Pages is written by editors having various religions and by editors having no religion, so they need to agree upon which are the best scholarly WP:SOURCES using objective criteria for identifying those. Misplaced Pages is biased for the universities, see WP:ABIAS. It isn't biased for or against Christianity. So Misplaced Pages finds WP:SOAPboxing for Christianity and soapboxing against Christianity to be equally infantile. Misplaced Pages does not care about the subjective beliefs of its editors, all it cares is about objective facts. I know this sounds to some like old-fashioned epistemology, yet it is a basic aspect of our work. Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:37, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

And that is good advice. So, for example, me and Jenhawk777 discussed the use of Baker's Evangelical Dictionary, which she agreed would probably not be a great choice as a main source for defining the Hebrew Bible's terms about violence. If Jenhawk's choices of sources had been more in line with Misplaced Pages's usual preferences from the start, perhaps the discussion at The Bible and Violence would have gone smoother. On the other hand, I think that particular article's level of discussion has gone downhill to the point where any newcomer would probably be better of gaining experience in less heated and more collaborative conditions, like on less controversial articles where there's less chance of things going sideways.

I tell you what, Jenhawk777. If you do stay around, and if you're willing to give it a shot, I'd love to collaborate with you on writing some articles that don't exist yet. I'm thinking about doing an article called The Martyrdom of Pionius the Presbyter and his Companions, one called History of Mar Qardagh, and finally The Chronicle of Arbela. No pressure, of course, but you might enjoy getting some experience under your belt on less prominent articles. 01:49, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

If you're serious, then yes, absolutely, I will take you up on that. I sincerely quit Misplaced Pages for a whole day! Then found this. I can't think of anything that could possibly be better than working with you off in some obscure little corner! I don't know anything about any of these topics and can hardly think of something more exciting than learning a bunch of new stuff while writing about it with you. I am ready to walk away from Bible and violence--except Graberg's asked me to do more references again and I said I would. Well, I can manage that without conflict I think if no one else knows it's me doing it. And who knows when he'll need that anyway? So yes and yes and yes! And thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 08:39, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

@Tgeorgescu: Thank you so much for the good advice. I agree with all you said. I really do recognize the value of good sources but have floundered about a couple of times trying to figure out what qualifies as 'mainstream scholarship' where studies of the Bible are concerned. The majority of Bible scholars are religious-- it gets really difficult--impossible at times--to exclude them--and therein lies the rub in this particular case. Alephb is going to help me get some better dictionaries and that will make a difference for part of it. And while I do absolutely agree Misplaced Pages doesn't care about the personal views of editors, there are some editors that do. I don't think I've done any soap-boxing, but I am still learning what neutral point of view means on Wiki. When I first got here I thought it meant presenting all points of view as they are presented in the sources. Boy did I take a bashing for that! But I am beginning to figure it out--I think--I hope. So thanx again for caring enough to comment. I appreciate it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 08:39, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Of course I'm serious, Jenhawk. The Martyrdom of Pionius the Presbyter is no laughing matter. Alephb (talk) 19:13, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

OMG! Humor! How wonderful! :-) So how does one start a new article? In their own sandbox or on a draft page? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:56, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I usually start in my sandbox, I think. Or one can just start the article directly by clicking on the red links above and typing into the box that comes up. An article can even be started as a stub -- a tiny little thing, as small as a single sentence. But just make sure that sentence cites a source, because otherwise the new article quality control volunteers might delete the thing. Alephb (talk) 22:31, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

What do you think of this dictionary? ] Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:06, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, it's old -- published in 1906 -- but for a time it was the leader in its field. It's still relevant but outdated in places. This is a borderline source: as long as you're not using it for anything controversial, I would guess that usually people would let use of it stand. When using a source, I generally ask, Is this source at least as good as the average source used in this article? So in obscure articles that are sourced to 18th-century Bible dictionaries, using BDB instead is always a step up. And it's always a step up from Strong's. As far as scholars are concerned, BDB still exists, while Strong's never did. But because it's 111 years old, it would be tough to defend using it if anyone objected. There's also multiple free copies of it circulating online (and legally). See Brown-Driver-Briggs. Alephb (talk) 12:39, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Please be patient as I am finding some of this difficult. I thought Strong's was supposed to be a great source! On Amazon, Strong's is rated 4 1/2 stars while Cline's only gets 3 1/2. What's up with that? I want to buy something I can have on hand and since it will have to last a little while anyway, I want to buy the newest best one, but I am having trouble deciding what that is. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I should have said thank you for being so patient because of course you are being patient and very helpful. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:32, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

The reason that Strong's is popular is that it is very convenient for non-Hebrew-speakers to use. Instead of having to learn the alphabet, there's those handy Strong's numbers. It also helps the readers of the KJV find out which Hebrew word corresponds to which English word. Those are two wonderful features, attached to a very mediocre dictionary. To use BDB or most other Hebrew dictionaries, you wouldn't necessarily have to learn Hebrew, but you would need to at least memorize the alphabet to get much use out of them. So probably Strong's gets those 4.5 stars because Strong is really good at giving people who don't understand Hebrew the feeling that they can easily see through the English into the Hebrew. And to some extent it works, but not reliably. There's a whole bunch of problems with Strong's, that I'd be happy to talk about if you want to hear them.

The big three dictionaries (if you're looking for something in English) are BDB, HALOT, and DCH. HALOT is probably a bit more well regarded than DCH. My preference for DCH is kind of a personal thing. BDB is old, but very, very good. HALOT is new, and similar to BDB in approach. DCH is also new. If you want HALOT or DCH, it's going to be a lot of money. The Concise HALOT, which can be found for as little as $15, has all the same definitions, basically, but cuts down on a lot of the extra information that true Hebrew nerds want. If you're not looking to spend an enormous amount of money, but you want something at the very top of up-to-dateness and reliability, I think CHALOT is the clear winner.

There's also a weird thing about biblical Hebrew dictionaries. Most of the biblical Hebrew that has survived to the present is just the Bible itself. The Bible is something like 80% of the pre-Mishnaic Hebrew that has survived to the present. So for rare words, there's an enormous amount of guesswork, and sometimes the dictionaries just have to guess. It's not at all a situation like Greek, where the New Testament is just a drop in a bucket of the ancient Greek texts we have to work with, and so a word that only appears once in the New Testament will usually be found in other contexts that give it clarity. A word that just appears once in the Hebrew Bible will usually be understood only through educated guesswork.

Do you have access to any databases of scholarly journals? (I mean, in one sense, everyone does, because everything is on Sci-Hub, but Sci-Hub use may or may not be legal depending on what country you're in, and it's use has never been punished in the US as far as I know, but I'm not in a position to give legal advice.) A lot of times, if you're looking for a Hebrew word, you'll have better luck with journal articles than a dictionary, if you have access to a university library. Alephb (talk) 22:43, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

references

Are you still willing to give me some dictionary references I can use? I don't have a new dictionary yet and have asked Jytdog how to access HALOT online but have not yet been answered. I need some references I can use for herem and hamas and for these: ṣamat, shamad, nakah, aqar, qatsah, shabat, and kalah which can all be in a group for all I care! I have tried hard to exclude (from the paragraphs on the Rfc) all references that could be considered "evangelical"--I think--I hope.

I also asked him to be specific and tell me which references--outside of the dictionaries--does he think or know are "evengelical" but I have also gotten no answer to that yet--so I am guessing --again--which turned out badly last time and now I am doing it again... I am eliminating anything published by Bakers, that seems safe, trying to cut out Eerdman's as much as possible, and have moved on to John Knox, Westminster Press and any others I recognize as Christian at all--without really knowing if they are evangelical or not! I am finding that on some points that leaves me with no reference at all!

A lot of the information in this article is common as dirt and it's everywhere and--no problem--I can find Jewish or secular writers, but some of it is not so popular to study and write about, and trying to exclude all Christian writers is just impossible. Excluding all Christian writers as "evangelical" produces a partial and slightly skewed view. So that doesn't work. Therefore, I will probably be unable to eliminate them all since they are the primary group writing on the Bible, which also means I may inadvertently (or unavoidably) include an evangelical--since I really have no clue whether any of these people or publishing houses are actually evangelical or not. Bakers was nice enough to include it in their name--but most don't. Anyway--so much for my whining, bitching and moaning.  :-) Poor me! Woe is me! Now that that's done... Dictionaries!! I am in desperate need of dictionary references! Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:40, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

But you don't want me to hand you page numbers to the DCH? I'm not sure what it is you're asking me to do. As far as I know, there's no WP:RELIABLE Hebrew dictionary, per se, online. If you're looking for sites legal to use in the United States, I don't think HALOT is out there. The closest thing to HALOT would be BDB. Would non-dictionary sources that discuss these words work? And do you have access to a university database of journal articles? If you do, I could give you journal article names probably for most of the entries. At least in terms of Hebrew words, most of the actual scholarship goes on in journal articles and books, and then the dictionary just sort of summarizes that work. DCH has all sorts of references to journal articles. Alephb (talk) 23:16, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Okay, well, uhmmm, yes, I did want you to just hand me the reference info--but I think I'm going to buy that concise Halot--but I am not a Hebrew scholar--will I be able to use it anyway? I have article/book references I think, but if you have more--send them on--I will check out everything you send. There is a slightly revised version of these paragraphs in my sandbox now--sans dictionary references. I will ask you to check it out before laying it at the feet of the almighty dog.Jenhawk777 (talk) 09:58, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

I can get those references. They'll be to DCH, though. Is that okay with you? Alephb (talk) 12:19, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

That would be perfect! And happy totally secular non-enfranchised unbiased non-ethnic holiday of whatever kind which you personally and freely choose to celebrate or not to whatever degree you choose according to your own completely private and personal inclination. Or Merry Christmas and Happy New Year as the case may be. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:14, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Okay, don't spend a lot of time on it--I know you have family activities and all--but when you get a few minutes, if you would give what's in my sandbox the once over, I am hopeful that with those valid dictionary citations this will pass and I can be done with this article and move on. If it needs to be after the holidays, that's cool. I understand and will still be grateful.  :-) Tell everyone hi for me! I wish I could meet them all--I know I would love them. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:06, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

And happy whatever it is to you as well! I had thought you didn't want DCH, but if you'll take it I can hunt them down. I'm away from my personal library for the Christmas holiday, but I can get the references for you once I'm back home, probably Tuesday. Alephb (talk) 22:36, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

No no I am perfectly happy with DCH--if I sounded less so it was probably because I was talking about what I needed to buy that was the most up to date that I can get--because it will have to last awhile! You know really, if you need to wait till January that's perfectly understandable. Nothing's on fire right now! Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:51, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, this is just my opinion, but I don't think you'll have to worry too much about HALOT/CHALOT becoming obsoleted. In Hebrew lexicography, the pace is slow. Modern Hebrew lexicography really gets rolling with Gesenius, 1834. Gesenius remains the big one until he is supplanted by the revised and updated Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon, 1906. BDB is knocked out of its leading position by HALOT, which comes along around 2002. So, to simplify, there's one big lexicon in the 19th century, one big one in the 20th, one big one so far in the 21st. Some parts of biblical studies can see major movement in a couple decades. Not so in Hebrew lexicography. There's just almost no new evidence coming to light. There are Ugaritic in the 30's, the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 40's and 50's, and . . . not a whole heck of a lot since.

As far as new developments are concerned, we've had like 800 pages of classical Hebrew available for the last maybe 1800 years of Jewish history. In the 40's and 50's, another 200 pages or so get found. Since then, maybe a handful of pages. So HALOT rests on a modern scholarly tradition of 170 years of reading the same 1000 pages over and over, scrutinizing every usage of each of the 8500-ish vocabulary terms found in those pages, trying to figure out what each word might mean. Barring some really unexpected source of more biblical Hebrew, the words that are going to be deciphered have all been deciphered, and the words that remain uncertain will remain uncertain. There just isn't room for anything major to change justify HALOT being considered obsolete any time soon. Alephb (talk) 05:27, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Okay then--Halot it is. Thank you. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:46, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

All righty, User:Jenhawk777. Here's the words, followed by the glosses DCH gives for them.

ḥerem is "devoted object, that which is banned, i.e. excluded from profane use and devoted to Y for destruction . . . or religious use . . . ban, devotion to destruction" (David J.A. Clines, ed., The Dictionary of Classical Hebrew, Volume III, p. 319).

ḥamas is "violence, wrong" (Volume III, p. 256).

ṣamat is "put an end to, exterminate . . . annihilate" (p. 133, Volume VII).

shamad is " "destroy . . . destroy, exterminate . . . inf abs as noun, destruction" (Volume VIII, p. 431-432).

nakah is " strike . . . strike, beat, beat down, as act of violence, in punishment, chastisement . . . to strike fatally, kill, in manslaughter, murder, assassination . . . as vengeance, retaliation, punishment . . . in warfare, conquest . . . combat . . . attack, defeat, rout, destroy, subdue . . ." (Volume V, p. 684-5).

ʕaqar is to pluck up, often in the violent sense. But I cannot seem to find this volume of my DCH for some reason. Sorry.

qatsah is "to cut off, in a destructive sense" (Volume VII, p. 179).

shabat with zeker can refer to one's "memory" being "blotted out" (p. 255), or in another idiom to "be blotted out . . . from . . . earth" (p. 255). Another sense, "be exterminated, be destroyed, perish" (Volume VIII, p. 255).

kalah in Qal can mean "be complete, be finished, be destroyed, be consumed, be weak, be dim . . . be determined, desire, disappear, perish" (p. 416). In Piel, "complete, finish, end, use up, exhaust, destroy, exterminate" (p. 416).

kalah as a noun means "end, destruction, annihilation, completion" (p. 418).

Both references to kalah are in Volume IV. Alephb (talk) 23:57, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you so much! This is amazing and you are wonderful. I will figure out how to insert these--but not today because we are still 'holidaying' here! Soon! Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:53, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Ooops! Found one more--"wicked" (rĕšāʿîm). Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:10, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

And two more I neglected to list: gazal and asaq. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:15, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

something on the difference between the verb and the noun? haram and herem? Okay I'll stop now-- :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:22, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I keep thinking I've extricated myself from the ongoing conflict at The Bible and Violence, and then I find myself dragged back in. It's nothing personal or against you, but I simply am not going to comment on anything relating to that page anymore. I would be happy to work with you in the future, and I think you have promise as a Misplaced Pages editor, but it appears that the only way I'm going to be able to get myself out of dealing with this endless situation is to recuse myself entirely. Alephb (talk) 22:45, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

What did I say? I'm sorry! I thought you were helping me with references. Did I say something to cause you to change your mind? How have you been dragged back into conflict? I thought you might want to check to be sure I used your material correctly--but it's just in my sandbox--there's no conflict there--and it's okay to just say no. I am terrifically sorry if I have done something I shouldn't have. You've been nothing but great and I wouldn't do anything to distress you--knowingly--for the world. Please forgive me--I guess I'm an idiot--but I don't quite know what I did--but I'm still sorry because you're clearly distressed. Has something happened that I don't know about?Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:11, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

You've said nothing offensive to me. No need to apologize It's just that there is one article I would really rather not be involved with, and yet if I look over my talk page, that's the one article that you keep pulling me back to. Really, you are free to continue working on it indefinitely. As far as I can see, you seem to be in what appears to be a permanent state of Just a few more edits, then I'll finally be done with this article. But it's been most of 2017 that you've been working at it, and as far as I can see the only way to be done editing the article is to be done editing the article. There's no need to call yourself an idiot, and no need to worry about me being in distress. It's just that you want to keep working on The Bible and Violence, and I'd like to work on almost anything except The Bible and Violence. As far as I can tell, the only way I can get to my desired goal of not working on The Bible and Violence is by deciding to not work on The Bible and Violence. And while it might seem arbitrary to do that right this very moment, there's no time like the present. If I don't draw an arbitrary line somewhere, I would find myself working on it indefinitely. My talk page used to have a lot of variety in it. Now it's practically all about the one article I don't want to work on, and I'm course-correcting to fix that problem. Alephb (talk) 12:44, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I won't talk to you about it anymore. As long as you're not pissed at me! Let's get started on something else. I'll never mention it again.

Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

No pissedness here. Let me know when you're ready, and I'd suggest we tackle some new articles -- either the ones I suggested above, or if you've noticed Misplaced Pages is missing some articles, I'd be happy to work on those. Although I'm pretty good at conveying how not-pissed I am in person, tone is harder to convey on the internet. It's probably one of Misplaced Pages's biggest problems, and part of why we're sorta dysfunctional here. Alephb (talk) 18:37, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank goodness! I have been trained not to do too many projects at once. It is also my nature to attempt to finish one thing before moving on to the next. It means I focus--but I can see how waiting on me could definitely become an issue. So no more waiting. We will put the ugliness behind us and move on to higher ground. I am getting one of those Hebrew lexicons and will do the remaining references myself, so no worries! It will be good for me to start doing myself. I have no other ideas for articles--my one idea was already done some time back apparently. I thought learning about something new sounded genuinely interesting. How about if you just pick one that you are interested in and I will begin randomly searching for knowledge and the ability to follow your lead and fake sounding intelligent?  :-)Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:38, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

One project at a time is probably good general advice. Certainly my life always works better the more focused I am. I usually only get an idea for an article once in a great while, sometimes when I see a redlink that shows Misplaced Pages doesn't have an article of its own. I came up with the ideas for writing Horvat Maon, Khirbet Ibziq, Puncta extraordinaria, and Puqudu that way. My other leads have come from another editor who suggested I write Acts of Pusai, History of Karka, Martyrdom of Simeon, Pseudo-Orpheus, The Martyrdom of Pionius the Presbyter and his Companions, History of Mar Qardagh, and The Chronicle of Arbela. Those last ones, because you can see the red links, have not been written yet. A few other I didn't start, but wrote most of the current content: List of minor biblical figures, List of minor biblical places, List of minor biblical tribes. As you can see, I tend to focus on obscure things.

I'm thinking of starting with Pionius. The next few articles I want to write are likely to be extremely short, because there's very little material for them on Google Books. For these, I basically just collect all the information I can, bit by bit, and try to put it into some kind of encyclopedic-looking format, until I can't find too many and am too lazy to go looking in an actual library for stuff. Alephb (talk) 04:58, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

All right. I've started The Martyrdom of Pionius. It's still very much a baby article. I'll probably build it one sentence at a time, little by little, as I have time. Alephb (talk) 05:27, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

That's actually the one that sounded the most interesting to me too! So good choice. Where did you start it? How will we divide this up? Or will we bother? Just bring what we find? This is exciting! Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:11, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

It's a Misplaced Pages article right now. You can click The Martyrdom of Pionius and it will take you right there. What I've got there is a start that I've put together so far tonight. I figure we can just both add a sentence here or there whenever the urge strikes, and either of us can reorganize it as necessary as the sentences start to pile up. Right now there's three little paragraphs: an introduction, a summary of the story, and what little discussion I've found so far about the story. For now I wouldn't even divide it into subtitled sections, although if we're lucky and find enough information we might need to. Alephb (talk) 06:16, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

God Jul och Gott Nytt År!

Som vi säger i Sverige.

User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång is wishing you the season's greetings.
Whether you celebrate your hemisphere's solstice or Christmas,
Diwali, Hogmanay, Hanukkah, Lenaia, Festivus,
or the Saturnalia,
this is a special time of year for (almost) everyone.

Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:44, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

And a merry whatever those strange words mean to you, too! Alephb (talk) 12:21, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Strange words..? That´s it, I´m reporting you to ANI for ethnical insensitivity! I shall demand a block for at least 24 nanoseconds!!! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:32, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

And I'll be reporting you for wishing me a happy religious holiday without checking whether I celebrate it! At this point I'd like to work in a joke about Ikea, but it's too early in the morning and I have to hurry off to work. Alephb (talk) 12:38, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm reporting both of you for excessive reporting. Wait--that's not a thing is it? Merry Christmas to both of you. You make things better wherever you are, and I can hardly think of a better compliment.Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:10, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2018!

Hello Alephb, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2018. Happy editing, JudeccaXIII (talk) 20:29, 24 December 2017 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

Thank you, Judecca. And a happy season to you too! Alephb (talk) 03:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

review

Would you mind going and taking a look and seeing if you think it's okay to submit? ] I am looking forward to being done with this. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:45, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

For reasons explained above, I'm going to recuse myself from any further involvement with The Bible and Violence. If you ever have any questions or comments about anything unrelated to this particular page, I would be happy to help however I can. Alephb (talk) 22:47, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

HNY

Happy New Year! Best wishes for 2018, —PaleoNeonate – 13:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Neonate.Alephb (talk) 22:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

A goat for you!

If you bothered to read my message on the Missing Verses article, I am revising that article from now until Feb 14, 2018. This means I put stuff in and insert the citations later. PLEASE DO NOT TAMPER WITH MY WRITING WHILE I AM WRITING IT! However feel free to make comments/suggests in the Talk section.

Sussmanbern (talk) 19:50, 7 January 2018 (UTC)