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Discussion at Talk:Josephine Butler about naming

You are invited to comment at Talk:Josephine Butler#Request for comment on names where there's an issue about naming; the article (which is currently a FA) refers to its female subject by her first name throughout "for simplicity". I'm struggling to think of any articles on male subjects which follow a similar practice. Any input is welcome. John (talk) 17:01, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm struggling to think how someone who is supposedly an admin thinks the rules about posting neutral comments or canvassing don't apply to them. - SchroCat (talk) 18:12, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Are you? Can you think of any though? I've struck the last sentence since it seems to offend two of you. --John (talk) 18:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

See WP:CANVASSING, and if you had any standards you'd address the misleading statement you'd make in your other non-neutral postings. - SchroCat (talk) 18:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Whatever. Can you answer the question? --John (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I can: your behaviour has fallen a long way short of that expected of an administrator. Your attitude of shrugging off valid comments about your approach is disgusting, and your continued misrepresentation of other people's views, hyperbole and untruthful statements are utterly dishonourable. I suggest you try not to splinter off the conversation onto several other pages, but keep all objective comments on the relevant thread. - SchroCat (talk) 18:40, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

"struggling to think of any articles on male subjects which follow a similar practice." Unfortunately (because I do think it should go to last names), I can: Modest Stein. I ... umm ... wrote most of it. Ahem. Stein, formerly Aronstam, changed his last name just at the start of his commercial success, which is maybe three quarters through our article. Our article not FA quality of course, partly because much of it is backed by a single source, and I followed that source, which calls him not merely by first name, but by hypocorism, "Modska", for most of its text. But there is a reason, which is that the source is really writing about his friends, and that was what they called him. That is one of the arguments SchroCat is using to defend the usage of Josephine, that biographies call her by first name. However, despite request, SchroCat isn't giving specific examples of just how those biographies do that, so I suspect it might be context specific, such as when talking about her interactions with her very close friends, or in talking about other people with the same last name. SchroCat, any chance of giving specific examples from the biographies you mention, so we can judge context? It would strengthen your case noticeably. --GRuban (talk) 18:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Mathers, Helen (2014). Patron Saint of Prostitutes: Josephine Butler and the Victorian Sex Scandal. Stroud, Gloucestershire: The History Press. ISBN 978-0-7524-9209-4, where the subject is referred to as "Josephine" throughout Not context specific, in other words. While some people may wish to enshrine in Misplaced Pages's practice an element of coverture in a woman being forced to change to her husband's surname, it's something that Josephine fought against her entire life. - SchroCat (talk) 22:31, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! Browsing through online excerpts, and you are right, it uses Josephine throughout. However, I will need to quote from the author: "I have produced a biography with a difference – ‘Patron Saint of Prostitutes’ tells Josephine’s life story and explains the historical background as well. But it’s not academic – it’s definitely intended as a ‘good read’". --GRuban (talk) 14:59, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

And? Misplaced Pages is not an academic publication. - SchroCat (talk) 15:15, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

It's evidence for your argument, no doubt. And we should certainly provide pleasurable reading where possible, but I do think that as an encyclopedia, if we have to choose, we should be academic. In any case the Josephine Butler talk page seems to be reaching consensus. --GRuban (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Then you do not understand what an encyclopaedia is, regardless of the unthinking and inflexible comments on the talk page, which have a narrow interpretation of what the MoS is (or is for). - SchroCat (talk) 19:26, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Having a gendered category only when there's an article behind it

Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Categorization#Revisiting gendered categories: Let's have a clear criterion of "has or can have a proper article"

It is not a !voting proposal or RfC, but a discussion draft, and has already had some constructive feedback (e.g. leading with "ghettoization" of articles was a distraction, as were suggesting statistical differences and reasons for them without providing sources). Seeking input on the overall idea.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ<  02:30, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Is this outing?

There's lots of news on Moira Donegan including stories by NPR and the NY Times and by MD herself. There was a fear of outing expressed by her, but that boat seems to have left the dock. Any feedback welcomed. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 23:28, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, not clear what you are asking. Moira Donegan seems to be a journalist who started a public access spreadsheet that could be used to accuse people of sexual harassment. We don't have an article on her, as the red color of your link indicates. Are you asking whether we should start a separate article on her? From a quick web search it seems she's only gotten serious coverage in the context of that spreadsheet, and it's highly controversial (she may have lost one or more jobs over it), so I'd think WP:BLP1E says no. Are you asking whether we should name her in Weinstein effect or Me Too (hashtag)? Since she both "outed" herself, and has gotten widespread coverage in major reliable sources, I think we can. Something else? --GRuban (talk) 15:32, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

The major question is whether there is enough, and good enough, info on her for an article. The outing question is probably second hand outing - if she only outed herself because she was afraid others would soon do it .... Is the info on her good enough? Since she is the only person saying for sure that she wrote the spreadsheet and others only report that she's written that she wrote the spreadsheet, is that good enough? But I'm not really worried about BLP1E - single events can be enough to justify a BLP. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:45, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

I'd worry. We can't write a biography about someone who is only famous for one highly controversial spreadsheet mostly written by other people, her life is much more than that, it would give a very distorted picture, and quite possibly do harm. We could, in theory, write an article about the spreadsheet, but I'm not sure it's gotten sufficient coverage on its own, it would be like writing an article about a news article about the Weinstein effect. --GRuban (talk) 15:56, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

"Carolina Oliphant, Lady Nairne", by any other name...

I've started a Request for Comment on Talk:Carolina Nairne#Request for comment on how to refer to the article subject: How should the article refer to its subject, Carolina Oliphant, Lady Nairne, after the initial mention of her full name? Comments are sought. --GRuban (talk) 18:00, 17 January 2018 (UTC)