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== Since it is obvious that it has been no Russian interference, this article should be either renamed or deleted ==
== Since it is obvious that it has been no Russian interference, this article should be either renamed or deleted ==
The whole theory of Russian interference has been based on supposed proof that the intelligence community had. No actual proof has ever been presented. Now that the intelligence community has been demonstrated to be affected by corruption there is no reason to believe that it has ever been any Russian interference. This makes this article bogus. I suggest to either rename it into ``Conspiracy theories about Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections``, or delete it altogether. ] (]) 08:16, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
The whole theory of Russian interference has been based on the supposed proof that the intelligence community had. No actual proof has ever been presented. Now that the intelligence community has been demonstrated to be affected by corruption there is no reason to believe that it has ever been any Russian interference. This makes this article bogus. I suggest to either rename it into ``Conspiracy theories about Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections``, or delete it altogether. ] (]) 08:16, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
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RM, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, Not moved, 21 December 2016, /Archive 2#Requested move 21 December 2016
MRV, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, Endorsed, 7 January 2017, Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2017 January
RM, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Intelligence reports of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, Not moved, /Archive 3#Requested move 29 December 2016
RM, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, No consensus, 7 January 2017, /Archive 3#Requested move 7 January 2017
RM, 2016 United States election interference by Russia → Alleged 2016 United States election interference by Russia, No consensus, 4 February 2017, /Archive 5#Requested move 4 February 2017
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You need a specific "Evidence of Interference" page. Without all the hearsay or circumstantial "evidence."
There's a page specifically dedicated to providing Evidence of Evolution ("evidence of common descent"), created to counter claims that there is no evidence of evolution. There are specific claims that there is no evidence of Russian interference. When I open up this page, I see (paraphrasing) "government organizations concluded that it happened," and statements like "this intelligence official stated that Russia brazenly interfered." I then go to the "timeline of Russian interference" page, and I see events like "Donald Trump says he 'does a lot of business with Russia' and 'has met Vladimir Putin.' That's not a documented event that is related to Russian interference, Trump has said literally thousands of things about thousands of topics. As well as in March 2016 "John Podesta is asked to change his e-mail due to a phishing attempt BELIEVED to be by Russian hackers." These articles are blatantly inflated with weak claims and circumstantial evidence to make them look like they have a lot of real direct substance.
The strongest thing I see, in this mess, are claims that Russia hacked e-mails, which MAY be the case, though Assange claimed that the source for Wikileak's e-mail dumps was actually a leak in the DNC. But IF Russia did actually hack e-mails, then THAT is the subject of your article. But since wikipedia should be a source of actual information and not empty quotes and beliefs, you should create a specific article to collect ACTUAL evidence, in terms of documents and real information. No hearsay or claims about "beliefs" or Donald Trump holding a pageant in Russia. This article is clearly the result of political biases on behalf of editors, which is an embarrassment to wikipedia. 67.82.83.27 (talk) 12:14, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
I do not really see this as a valid point to make, making the case for scientific theories is not the same as a political controversy, not at all. The article follows the cited sources, it does not make its own conclusion in the Misplaced Pages Voice. ValarianB (talk) 12:57, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
This is personal commentary that's not actionable and should be archived. OP clearly has political issues with the topic and is here to shit on the article. Geogene (talk) 13:38, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The fundamental problem is that the article does NOT label this as a political controversy. It states unequivocally that the interference occurred, then provides large amounts of hearsay and little-to-not documented evidence. For comparison sake, the article on the "Birther" movement labels it immediately as a conspiracy theory, as it should. Likewise for 9/11 Conspiracies. There's inherent judgement about the status of a controversy in the very title of the articles. If you want to state that something occurred instead of addressing it as a controversy and referring to it during the article as a fact and not a controversey, then you need factual data. That's not this article. You should have a dedicated article just for facts and direct evidence. You're welcome to block people from commenting on it, but this does not take the form of other articles on political controversies or conspiracy theories. It states the situation as fact with only hearsay and circumstantial evidence. And of course, instead of defending this, you try to personally attack the respondents and block them from discussing the issue, which doesn't surprise me. A wise person once said that you shouldn't become a monster when you fight monsters. When you start slanting information on wikipedia out of hatred for Donald Trump, you've become a monster yourself. Now go ahead and block the feedback. This article is an embarrassment to wikipedia, and you can't even defend how non-neutral and weak it is.67.82.83.27 (talk) 15:37, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Does it? It says that US intelligence think it happened, not that it did. And users get blocked for soapboxing (talking about "issues" and "censorship". We are here to talk about this article only (and how to improve it) not the wrongs of Misplaced Pages.Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
This is not a "controversy" because there is no significant viewpoint in reliable sources that Russia did not interfere in the election. Similarly, it's not a "conspiracy theory" because reliable sources don't call it that. If you want the intelligence community's evidence, as opposed to merely their public statements, you will need to call the President and ask him to declassify it for you. Your anger at Misplaced Pages is misplaced. Geogene (talk) 16:29, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
I say this with respect: compare Slatersteven‘s “Does it? It says that US intelligence think it happened, not that it did.” With Geogene’s “This is not a "controversy" because there is no significant viewpoint in reliable sources that Russia did not interfere in the election.}} “not that it did” vs “no significant viewpoint in reliable sources that Russia did not interfere“.
My focus here (in case it isn’t evident) has been on exactly this point of framing. I (and others) have long argued unsuccessfully for framing the page with ‘alleged’ (or similar) in the title. Slatersteven — given the above contrast, where do you now stand on that? Humanengr (talk) 15:26, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
I have stated before I have no major issue with "alleged" but neither do I have a major issue with it not being included. I would rather we did say "Allegations", but I am afraid that view is becoming weaker the more opposition to the idea it happened shifts from "it did not happen" to "it was not significant". But the "contrast" is irrelevant, I can think what a user said is daft and still not agree that what another user says is daft.Slatersteven (talk) 15:45, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Aah, I had read the ‘that’ in “I am afraid that view is becoming weaker” as indicating you thought the general public’s sense of ‘interference’ as being ‘allegations’ was becoming weaker and moving from “it did not happen” to “it as not significant”. I spent some time trying to locate longitudinal polls on that without success; hence my question. Humanengr (talk) 19:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
@Humanengr: and @Slatersteven: this thread is the subject of an ongoing discussion at AN/I. Please thread your replies correctly, so that my remarks don't change context. Especially you, Humanengr. Thanks. Geogene (talk) 20:10, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
@Geogene:, Slatersteven inserted at the same level as mine but prior to yours. It looks like that should have been inserted after yours and at the same level. That was the original error. Perhaps I should have corrected that before responding to Slatersteven. Apparently, in your eyes, that warrants an ‘especially’ directed at me. Humanengr (talk) 21:50, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm the OP here posting from a different IP. Humanengr is correct. If you want to have an article labeled WITHOUT reference to a controversy, allegations, or conspiracy, then you should have direct factual evidence of it. The fact that people were arrested or tried over something is not evidence that something occurred, convictions might be, otherwise you would have to label the McCarthy Hearings as matters of factual prosecution of Communists in the United States. Lastly, to Slatersteven, I did NOT criticize wikipedia as a whole, I criticized this article and said it's incredibly non-neutral and lax standards, using hearsay, appeals to authority and circumstantial evidence, combined with editors looking to personally attack those who question the evidence and block criticism, as an embarrassment to wikipedia. If I say someone is an embarrassment to the military, that's an insult to the person, not the military. The way you tried to relabel it was highly inappropriate. 24.184.166.109 (talk) 20:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
I haven’t commented here, regarding this as a tired issue that has often been raised before and has never come close to achieving consensus. But I will say, just for the record, that I oppose any addition of “alleged” or “allegation” to this article title or lede, or any kind of “evidence for and against” sections. --MelanieN (talk) 16:21, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm with Melanie on this. The FBI treats the allegations as credible to such an extent that arrests have been made over it. Congress is investigating it, journalists are investigating it, some elements have been shown to almost certainly have taken place (and I mean "almost certainly" in the same sense that the sun will almost certainly rise tomorrow) exactly as alleged. There is no significant RS view that the interference did not happen. For us to word this article such as to sow doubt that is not present in the sources as a whole would be dishonest and a disservice to the reader. This includes doing things like attempting to highlight and exaggerate the relative dearth of publicly accessible evidence, or presenting highly dubious evidence against it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.19:33, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Minority report
This report was mentioned on the page, but I think it should be more prominently used, possibly in background section, because it provides a much wider perspective on these events. This is not a series of isolated incidents, but a part of a well designed and successful strategy to suppress democracy in a number of countries. My very best wishes (talk) 16:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Speaking about sources, in addition to report itself (I think it qualify as secondary RS and includes interesting Appendices ), there are RS which discuss this report, such as or . What should be included? At the very least the conclusion or summary, which is in essence "The report commissioned by the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee is the first from Congress to comprehensively detail Russian efforts to undermine democracies... Labeling Russia’s activities an “asymmetric assault on democracy,” the report notes that elections in countries such as Britain, France and Germany were reportedly targeted by Moscow-sponsored hacking, internet trolling and financing for extremist political groups. The report also credits those nations and smaller European countries, such as Finland and Estonia, for responding quickly and often with effect" (from last ref). But the Report actually covers a period of time since 1999 and a number of different events. I would have to think about it. My very best wishes (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
According to CNN, Titled "Putin's Asymmetrical Assault on Democracy in Russia and Europe: Implications for U.S. National Security," it was researched and written by Cardin staff members who interviewed European ambassadors in the US and traveled to Europe to talk to government officials, NGOs and media groups about Russian interference in their countries. So, this is not an official position by US government (apparently). This is a research publication and an official report by a member of US Senate who was responsible for that policy (The report comes one year after Senator Cardin introduced the Counteracting Russian Hostilities Act of 2017, which served as the basis for the sanctions package signed into law last August). This is also something widely reported in multiple RS. Maybe the report deserves a separate page, I am not sure. My very best wishes (talk) 17:14, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
This is one report, by one politicians staff (who would not have had access to all kinds of material). It has no official sanction and represents just his opinion. I think it has all the coverage it deserves.Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
This is not about providing more coverage for Report. This is about using this Report and other related publications as RS on the subject of this page. My very best wishes (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
I am not sure this would pass muster for anything more then his opinion, and I am not sure the article would benefit from huge amounts of material from members of the committee.Slatersteven (talk) 17:26, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
That's where WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV comes in. I see that's technically not a proposed text but a quote from a source. That doesn't matter, something like that could work. Geogene (talk) 17:29, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
In a section above I argued that a single committee members view is not really relevant, I cannot in all conscience now change that view. If this was an official report it might be different (by his committee), it is not. If I (or anyone else) accept we can include this then we must include all of the members of that communities views. I cannot countenance that idea, so cannot make an exception in this case.Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
This is why I asked what you wanted to why, why should this one persons view be at the top? It is neither a fact nor a majority view.Slatersteven (talk) 17:43, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Yes, maybe this should be moved somewhere or be written differently or whatever. But from what I read on the subject, the conclusions by Report seems to be correct conclusions, scientifically speaking. Yes, I know, WP is different. Here we must care about the majority of sources view on the subject, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 18:00, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
If anyone has objections, please state them here. So far there were none. The report seem to be significant enough to be mentioned on the page with one phrase explaining what it tells. But I am not opposed to using it as a source. My very best wishes (talk) 18:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
What "other members views" are you talking about? Sources? If there are other notable and recent published views by other members by Senate, and they were not included on the page, they also must be included. This particular view is notable because, (a) it was published as an official document for the Senate, (b) it was widely covered in secondary RS, and (c) it is generally painted in RS (NYT, WP, etc.) as a view by democratic minority. My very best wishes (talk) 16:12, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
I objected to the inclusion of the Himes material for this reason (or am I thinking of one of the other Umpteen pages about this topic?). As to being "an official document for the Senate", only in the sense that any document written officially by a senator is. It was not (however) commissioned or published on behalf of the committee (or the senate).Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
It was not me who included this report on the page. I only think that we need to add one phrase explaining what this report tells. It does appear highly notable to me based on the content and wide coverage in other sources. My very best wishes (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
The Republican Memo has received wide coverage too, and I objected to it's inclusion. The material that matters is actual evidence or (at the very least) official findings. Not one elected official (or even a (what is the collective noun for politicians, a corruption?) a mob of them).Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
No, as they were produced by the same kinds of people, in the same way. I cannot allow one "this was done by my paid staff" POV and disallow another. If the report by the senator represents the main stream view, why not use a better (say legal or academic) source, rather then (what is in effect) an opinion piece?Slatersteven (talk) 16:52, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
I have no judgement if Republican Memo should be included. Maybe it should (where was the discussion?). You tell: "The material that matters is actual evidence or official findings." Yes, that matters, but looking from the sourcing perspective, the Report looks to me just like a great review article with mainstream position on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
I have no idea, I am not the one throwing around "fringe theory" accusations. By the way, do most people accept (RS, of course) it happened?Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
What I believe or do not believe is irrelevant, we go with how RS describe it. There are many things I do not agree with here on Misplaced Pages, but as I am not RS it does not count. So unless you can demonstrate that most RS say it did happen (rather then say call it an allegation) then we cannot act as if that is what most RS say.Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
A lot of RS (including the report under discussion) tell, assume or imply that the "interference" did actually happen, and it is only natural that majority of people familiar with the subject personally believe that it did happen (essentially as a matter of fact) because there is so much direct and circumstantial evidence about it. My very best wishes (talk) 19:00, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
A. "a lot" and "a majority" are not the same. B. Implication is not enough RS have to say it explicitly, anything that is "inferred" (and that is what you do with something that is implied you infer what they really meant) would be OR.Slatersteven (talk) 19:06, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
That sounds like wikilawyering. Do you have any reliable sources that dispute the mainstream perspective? This a "yes" or "no" question. Geogene (talk) 19:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Note Rush Limbaugh seems to be playing catch up with this article's talk page from last year, using the Iraq WMD thing to smear US Intelligence apparently duping the trusting but naive Dick Cheney. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talk • contribs)
I was thinking of the Dick that some editors here said was duped by the same dark state intelligence community that duped us in the JAR attributing election interference to the Russians. SPECIFICOtalk19:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Since it is obvious that it has been no Russian interference, this article should be either renamed or deleted
The whole theory of Russian interference has been based on the supposed proof that the intelligence community had. No actual proof has ever been presented. Now that the intelligence community has been demonstrated to be affected by corruption there is no reason to believe that it has ever been any Russian interference. This makes this article bogus. I suggest to either rename it into ``Conspiracy theories about Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections``, or delete it altogether. Yurivict (talk) 08:16, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: not checked
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