Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:06, 26 October 2006

Discussion

I just want to say, not all southerners are racist. I am pro-confederate yet I have several friends of varying ethnicities. So, are you gonna call me racist? I beleive secession is a God given right. If you want to argue, so be it. GOD SAVE THE SOUTH! crazyfurf

I checked League Core Beliefs Statement, plus http://leagueofthesouth.net/index.php?module=daily_archive, http://leagueofthesouth.net/index.php?module=Topics&func=view, and http://leagueofthesouth.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index. Nowhere did I see anything to support :

It attempts to rescue the concept of Southern heritage and the Confederate legacy from white supremacists and hate groups who have sometimes appropriated its symbols but have little or no...'

or

...vocal denunciations of hate groups..."

I've made a good faith attempt to find this information. It is incumbent on the eidtors making the assertion to provide the source. Thanks, -Willmcw 01:18, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

YOU ARE NOT USING THE OFFICIAL PAGE. FURTHERMORE, YOU ARE NOT A MEMBER OF THE ORGANIZATION SO YOU HAVE NO GROUNDS TO SPEAK ABOUT THE BELIEFS OF ITS MEMBERS.

Please share with us the URL of the "official page" that contains the information you posted. Whether I am a member or not is irrelevant. The only material that belongs in this article is information that can be verified by any Misplaced Pages editor. Also, please refrain from making personal attacks. Civility is a Misplaced Pages requirement, not just a Southern ideal. Thanks, -Willmcw 00:43, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Well, ignoring the above shouter, what about this: http://leagueofthesouth.net/static/homepage/intro_articles/csa-flags.html ? Not exactly vociferous, I'll grant. I wonder how well-documented other statements in the article are, such as the part where it talks about slavery. - Nat Krause 13:09, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that link. However it seems to say the opposite. It castigates those who associate the Confederate flag with racism, rather than castigating racists for using the flag.

It has been the experience of the League of the South that those who strive to re-cast the Confederate flag as solely a "racist symbol" are inevitably motivated either by historical ignorance or by pure, unadulterated malice towards the South, its symbols, its heritage and its people. We of the League of the South steadfastly reject the crass bigotry that drives this ceaseless campaign of cultural genocide against the revered Anglo-Celtic symbols of Dixie. We rightly resent and resist the politically correct fascism that demands that we acquiesce in the destruction of our own culture. '

Reading that makes the assertion in the article appear to be the opposite of the LS's real stand. So, rather than delete it, I'll fix it. Cheers, -Willmcw 16:47, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

It says both. It also says:

While it is true that some have misused this banner for ignoble purposes, the same can be said of the U.S. flag and the Christian cross, yet no one will seriously argue that they are hate symbols simply because racial extremists use them from time to time. If fairness will allow us to acknowledge that those symbols have meanings that transcend their use by racial bigots, then the same courtesy must be extended to the premier symbol of the Southland, the Confederate flag.

Here, they describe racists using the flag as "ignoble" and as "racial bigots". - Nat Krause 02:00, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

If that is what they wrote then that is what we should say. Thanks for finding that. -Willmcw 03:54, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Further right than Edmund Burke and further left than Karl Marx?

What does this mean?

Rewrite planned

Hello. I'm here to discuss a planned rewrite of this page. It would be mainly an expansion, breaking the main text into sections (History, Goals and beliefs, Controversy) and adding more information to those sections. This rewrite will cause most of the original text to be lost, so I won't change anything prematurely. If there are major objections to this rewrite, I'd like to hear them. For fairness' sake I should say that I'm new to Misplaced Pages; this will be my first major project. However, I am very aware of NPOV and will strive to use it. Thanks, all! Ericka Dawn 22:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes articles need rewrites. An important policy is Misplaced Pages:verifiability, and its companion guideline is Misplaced Pages:reliable sources. Those require that we have a source for everything we add. They way that I put it together is: "Our job is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view". So I suggest that a good way to start would be to compile the sources you intend to summarize. Cheers, -Will Beback 19:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Oops. So, I was working on the article in my word processor, but when I was checking out some formatting on the site I accidentally hit "save" instead of "preview"...I guess it's up now. Not as complete as I had planned, but I think it's an improvement. Comments? Ericka Dawn 22:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Overall it looks good. It is sympathetic, by way of providing more of the subject's agenda, but we have to fully describe their mission and goals from all perspectives, especially their own. So my comment is that we should avoid using long quotations or other source material. The more we can summarize the better. Otherwise, it's a nice job. Thanks, -Will Beback 09:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

SPLC

The entire article appears to be based off of information (no matter how inaccurate) from the SPLC. Most references throughout article are linked to the SPLC website. It is common knowledge that the LoS and the SPLC have a continuing fued (including the LoS picketing the SPLC headquarters), therefore it seems very un-encyclopedic to use the SPLC as the primary source of information. Using this information makes the entire article very POV, even if not intended to be by the person using the info. I would suggest that the article be re-writen using only non-POV sources. J.B. 04/04/2006

To me the article strikes a decent balance between both sides of this issue. The problem, though, is that the references to this article either come from the League's website or the SPLC. What I'd like to see are more references and information from third-party sources. This doesn't mean to take away the references and info that is there but add more info from sources that aren't involved in either side of this article's topic.--Alabamaboy 21:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent Rewrite

I have re-written the article, for bias, style, sourcing and readability. Though this article now has fewer blatant problems, it is essentially just describes the content of a League position paper as well as a SPLC article. The League should be seen in a broader context of neo-confederate movements, its influence should be discussed, and material from ""The US Civil War as a Theological War: Confederate Christian Nationalism and the League of the South", should be included. (It goes without saying that this paper should be discussed in a POV-less fashion). Thus, I've left an expand tag on the article because it needs work. --Zantastik talk 17:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's better. What is the reason for the link to the Military Order of the Stars and Bars, other than that both are interested in the history of the Confederacy? Is there some overlap in the membership of these two groups not apparent from the article? Also, I question the South's relationship to a "list of not fully sovereign nations". Unlike, say, British Overseas Territories, some of which have many citizens desirous of fuller or complete sovereignty, I would say that only a tiny minority of Southerners truly see the South as a sovereign nation being wrongfully occupied and governed by foreigners. While it is important to acknowledge these folks and cover their activities, it is also important to note that they hold a minority viewpoint, just as sedevacantists are not mainstream in the Catholic church, nor are "Predestinarian Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit" Baptists a predominant group of Baptists. Rlquall 20:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Conservative Christian

As it stands now, the above term, which is used in the article, is just a redirect to Christian right. Is this really appropriate? While this group has some decidedly right-wing ideas and is definitely aimed at Trinitarian Protestants, is it really part of any larger agenda such as the Christian Right? Judging from its own materials, it seems fairly unconcerned with the rest of the U.S., as they are in its view just a group of occupying foreigners, whereas the Falwells and Robertsons of the world are interested in converting everyone over to their viewpoint and hence saving them (again, in their view). Comments? Rlquall 20:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

As a political group, I don't think we can ignore the political aspect of the league's religious views, which are included prominently in their platform. Though they may differ from many others in the Christian Right on specifics of theology or politics, I think that it is a reasonable link. Do you know of a better article for the link? -Will Beback 22:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Controversy Section amended

I have amended the controversy section by underlining what the footnotes suggest: that alligations are those of the SPLC's report "A League of Their Own". The SPLC is not exactly an unbiased source. Its claims are not the truth. To present these claims as true is POV. 71.71.118.255 00:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Steve Barry

Steve Barry, mentioned in the Controversy section, was indeed reported to be a member of the National Alliance. He was listed as an advisor to the NC League's Raleigh Chapter. When the NC League's state chairman found this out, he kicked out the Raleigh Chapter's president, and Barry's advisory status and membership came to an end. The NAACP expelled a chapter president who made anti-Semitic remarks a few years back, which is just one example of how every organization gets its share of undesirables. The League also screens applicates and weeds out bad eggs: anti-Semites, racists and racialists, anti-Catholics, etc. 71.71.118.255 00:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Do we have any sources for this? -Will Beback 04:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The source is the NC Chairman in his correspondence to me upon my asking. His blog: http://www.leagueofthesouth.net/rebellion/ He added in that correspondence that as far as he can tell, Steve Barry was never a member of the League. It's worth asking, What was the SPLC's sources for its information on Barry's relation to the League? 71.71.118.255 17:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

We don't require that our sources reveal their sources. We do require more than a personal, undisclosed correspondence as a source. That type of sourcing is prohibited by WP:NOR and WP:V. If he has published his views then we could quote him on it. I can't find any mention of the matter on his blog. -Will Beback 20:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

SPLC allegations

I have removed several statements in the article which were "supported" solely by statements of the SPLC. In context, the SPLC does not meet criterion for adequate sources. WP:RS; WP:RS#Exceptional Claims; WP:V; WP:NPOV, WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. If such accusations are to be included in this article, they must be supported by mainstream sources, not based merely on the accusations of a radical and politically charged activist group. Think about it this way -- if the SPLC can be the sole critic of the LoS, then STORMFRONT can be the sole critic of the SPLC. I'm sure all of you get the point. Furthermore, the SPLC does have a documented reliability/credibility problem. Therefore, use of the SPLC as a source is problematic on those grounds as well. Additionally, exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. WP:RS#Exceptional Claims. The prior version of the article failed to meet any of these three aspects of Wiki policy. I am not stating that criticism cannot be included in this article. However, I am saying that this criticism must be obtained from reliable and verifiable sources, and presented in a balanced and NPOV manner. --Fix Bayonets! 06:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The claims are not exceptional, and are consistent with allegations from othre sources. Stormfront would never be considered a reliable source for anything because it is a forum. I'd be willing to compromise by placing the SPLC criticisms in one section, much as has been done with the critisms of SPLC itself in the "SPLC" article. -Will Beback 20:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Verklempt's most recent edits resolve the issue in a satisfactory manner.--Fix Bayonets! 12:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It's progress, but some useful information, like membership numbers, has been lost. I'll make a section for SPLC reporting when I get a chance. -Will Beback 15:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's take a look at what Fix Bayonets! believes to be the SPLC's "exceptional claims" that (s)he has taken it upon him/herself to remove.

Are the claims taken from SPLC sources really all that exceptional for a group like LOTS? (and this considering that the latter has not specifically disagreed with them -- except the racism allegation)

1. That some consider the organisation racist. Mind you, not that the organisation is racist, but that some consider it to be. This is not an "exceptional claim". Neo-confederate groups are often accused of racism. The article does not state that this accusation is correct, simply that it is leveled at the LOTS.

It has attracted some controversy because of its alleged racism, and its leadership of the so-called Neo-Confederate movement.

2.Non controversial statements about league membership numbers. Whether one likes the SPLC or not, given the utter paucity of information the League has chosen to render public regarding its membership, the SPLC's numbers are the best thing we've got. Certainly, if the LOTS debated these stats (and Fleming and Mc Whiney leaving) then this would need to be noted, but they have not (publically) done so. Thus, there's no reason for removing this information.

The latter's book Cracker Culture, has been called "a neo-confederate Bible." In 1998, the Southern Poverty Law Center estimated the League's membership at 4,000; in 2000, it had grown to 9,000 members according to the SPLC. Since then, again according to the SPLC, its membership has been in decline, and high-profile figures like Fleming and McWhiney have left the League.

3. Every single criticism of the League and a quote from Hill calling universal human rights an "evil genie". Such a removal is a clear violation of NPOV. Just because one doesn't like a group doesn't mean that stripping away any discussion of criticism of it are acceptable. After all, even our articles on the least-controversial groups have criticism sections -- NPOV requires this. The SPLC has indeeed been criticised by some. Yet this does not mean that it simply cannot be cited.

As for Hill's quote, it really isn't that surprising (or exceptional, if you prefer), given the man's philosophy. Here's a longer discussion thereof. from the acursed SPLC

The very idea , Hill and others say, is "Jacobin," referring to a particularly bloody faction during the French Revolution.

Hill also suggests that citizens need not be given equal rights: "While the teachings of Holy Scripture speak of a civil society composed of superiors, equals and inferiors, each protected in their legal privileges, Jacobin social theory posits that no adult can be justly denied any privilege due another, except perhaps as punishment for ... a crime." Sadly, Hill writes, most Christian Southerners have fallen prey to this "fatal heresy" of egalitarianism.

"he evil genie of universal 'human rights,' once loosed from its bottle, can never be restrained," he writes, "because rights for women, racial and ethnic minorities, homosexuals, pedophiles, etc., can be manufactured easily."

Hill's group believes in the particular over the universal, the ethnic/national group over humanity, tradition over pure reason, and so on. When one opposes Enlightenment principles, it's hardly surprising that he or she would also oppose the idea of universal human rights or equality. Such opposition goes way back -- from Burke and Herder to Meinecke, Renan, Maurras, etc. That another anti-Enlightenment thinker in this tradition would have similar views is hardly surprising.

Until Hill disowns these remarks attributed to him, then blanking them is simply POV.

I have re-inserted the blanked text. It should not be re-blanked absent a consensus to do so. Let's work together to make this article as NPOV as possible, full of praise and criticism of the LOTS, based on its own material and that of its opponents. --Zantastik talk 18:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Zantastik's thorough response is convincing. I find it hard to believe that one could effectively argue a counterpoint. I am troubled, however, by Fix Bayonets' pattern of editing, demonstrated in other articles as well, that always seems to result in the excision of anything written by the SPLC or about the SPLC from articles. · j e r s y k o talk · 19:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at Fixbayonets edits to the SPLC article.Verklempt 20:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

SPLC comment unacceptable

I quote Misplaced Pages Administrator SlimVirgin:

"When dealing with published sources not regarded as reputable enough to be used as sources of information on other people, we may nevertheless use them as sources of information on themselves if they have a Misplaced Pages page, but even then we proceed with caution. So for example, Stormfront may be used as a source if we want to know what Stormfront says about itself in the article about that group, but we don't use Stormfront as a source of information on Jews. We also don't repeat its views about Jews in the Stormfront article unless we're carefully selecting certain passages to illustrate what kind of organization it is. But we don't allow the Stormfront article to become a platform for Stormfront propaganda. Misplaced Pages is not an extension of other people's websites."

As can be seen, the above remarks are in context and quite applicable to the subject-matter dispute regarding the Misplaced Pages LoS article. The SPLC is not a reliable source. It is verified that the SPLC invents news and hides information which might otherwise destroy the credibility of the SPLC’s propaganda. If SPLC activists wish to criticize the LoS, they must furnish mainstream sources.

I quote WP:RS#Exceptional Claims:

"Exceptional claims :

Surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known.

Surprising or apparently important reports of recent events not covered by reputable news media.

Reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended.

Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events or politically-charged issues."

Therefore, the SPLC material is unacceptable and I reverted attempts to re-insert such material.--Black Flag 18:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

1. http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=250
2. Southern Poverty Law Center website
3. SPLC website