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User talk:Arch1

defwarn on narendra Modi

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Hkelkar 00:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The above is a template used as a pretext to suppress facts and promote Hindutva versions see talk page of that article TerryJ-Ho 12:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Don;t mess up my talk page

Plus, do not deliberately confuse the issue. I do know a fair bit about the Hindu religion. Not only the Arya Samaaj but Smarta Hindus also reject the authority of post-vedantic Hindu scripture.None of these groups buy into the caste system.However, I am aware of your tendency to attack and defame Hindus across the board and have enough dirt on you to get you banned from editing India-related articles altogether. Unless your bad faith behaviour improves I will have no choice but to have you ArbCommed.Hkelkar 01:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, in case you're confused Kelkar is my father's name, not my mother.I am Jewish by matrilineage.Hkelkar 02:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Shalom, What do you write on your civil papers? TerryJ-Ho As per my belief a religion is what one follows not what one brings in ancestry.You may have your own ideas.I respect them though TerryJ-Ho

Jewishness is established by matrilineage.Plus, I am observant.Hkelkar 10:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't care

I am citing the refs and sources that say that the FATWA (religius declaration) was made by al-Barani and created the Ashraf/Ajlaf/Arzal divide. Also see Ambedkar's book for how disgusting this casteism was. Ambedkar even says it was worse than that among Hindus. This is Ambedkar. The great Babasaheb Ambedkar himself.Hkelkar 10:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You should better care - don't use this definitive language while editing Misplaced Pages.There are others whose views are as respectful and also there are others who care TerryJ-Ho

A fatwa is a fatwa is a fatwa is a fatwa. What's not to know about a fatwa? It's the thingie that clerics like Osama bin-Laden give out to order his henchmen to blow people up. That's all. Fatwa. Simple.Hkelkar 10:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't always go out to Uncle Osama - if you don't find anything else to write.If I write a book called Fatwa i Insaniyat. It means Views on Insaniyat but if I am not a Mufti It does not become a religious document.TerryJ-Ho 10:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOR please.Hkelkar 10:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Giving you an example - is not an original research.If an article is sent for AfD it does not mean - I necessarily consider its authors as permanently malicious.You should better concentrate on page by page basis and not pulling up examples from the graves.It will help in your own standing on Misplaced Pages.TerryJ-Ho 11:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Plus, your edits are all in bad faith.You expect me to trust you after what you pulled in the AfD? Lol!Hkelkar 10:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It is assumed when you edit on WP - you should not distrust others intentions and rake up histories from other articles TerryJ-Ho 12:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that you don't have a systemic anti-Hindu prejudice since you seem to me to be fervently obsessed with bashing Hindus like in the Tipu Sultan thing (another debate I'm winning). Boy, I must be driving you really crazy.First, the mediator turns on you in Tipu Sultan debate, then the AfD of yours gets thrown into the garbage heap. Now you're trying to confuse me with all this nonsense about fatwas-not-being fatwas and I'm not buying the Original Research and blatant violation of so many[REDACTED] policies I'll have to catalogue them.

It is time you got over this historical baggage.Misuse of historical edit histories n times will be construed as a bad practice.Edits of other editors are not all garbages.Please be reminded of decency TerryJ-Ho

I'll bet you're just itching to get me blocked, huh? Now that's what I call a true "personal Jihad".

Please abstain from judging my motives in a negative light and "Jihad".While you may not get blocked for your edits themselves misuse of these prjudical terms.I don't suffer from any itch either TerryJ-Ho

Well, we'll see what admins say.I am prepared with my case with all the facts. Are you?Hkelkar 11:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Tell you what

I'll stop editing if you will stop editing. Please come to the talk page and discuss the matter.Plus, please keep your friends at bay here as this kind of warring does not help anybody.You be cool and I'll be cool. Halaal?Hkelkar 11:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry but I don't understand that "I'll stop editing if you will stop editing." - this is not a war and I don't have an army of friends here.I don't interact with them.Also I don't appreciate the use of religious terms with sarcasm."Halaal?" - Is it English? You should continue on editing providing valid reasons for your edits and similar for me.While discussions are good things - I am not in favour of discussions where people are already entrenched in their positions..and not willing to budge..I believe there are many editors ready to discuss issues in length like Bhaisaab and Hornplease whose positions are oppositte to you..I will certainly participate on issues and points where I can be of use..You can of course, write your objections and views on my talk page.I am ready to help if I can TerryJ-Ho 11:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

At this rate one of us is going to violate 3RR. Are you sure it's not going to be you?If the article gets protected then it doesn;t help either of us. As it is, we are dangerously close to the precipice and, of course, BhaiSaab will come charging by in a few hours and revert-war as usual (I'm sure that you are counting on that). Bear in mind that, regardless of the technicalities of 3RR, if there is edit-warring I will report BOTh you and BhaiSaab on ANI, citing precedence of behaviour in this article only since both of you have clearly violated the "electric fence" philosophy behind 3RR together on this article before. Anything for the great holy war on an infidel like me, right?Hkelkar 11:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This language Anything for the great holy war on an infidel like me, right - Please stop.TerryJ-Ho 12:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My predictions were 100% proven. Bhaisaab came charging in and ululated his way to getting the article protected.Maybe you should regard me as the Mujaddid or something, eh?Hkelkar 23:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Copy of

Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. See Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith for the guidelines on this.TerryJ-Ho

Interesting Items

• A provocation that I removed
• I am winning a battle
• We will win you will lose
• Looks like the ji(had)g is up
• Pussy's logic

Hindutva is fascism

• It is also true that RSS is a fascist organisation
• Showed the fascist potential of RSS

Caste system's origins in Hindu Religion

5.6.1 India's caste system has strong historic ties to Hinduism. It delineates clear social strata, assigning highly structured religious, cultural, and social roles to each caste and sub-caste. Members of each caste, and frequently sub-caste, are expected to fulfil a specific set of duties (known as dharma) in order to secure elevation to a higher caste through rebirth. Despite longstanding efforts to eliminate the discriminatory aspects of caste, the practice has remained widespread. The Constitution gives the President authority to identify historically disadvantaged castes, Dalits and tribal people (members of indigenous groups historically outside the caste system). These "scheduled" castes, Dalits and tribals are entitled to affirmative action and hiring quotas in employment, benefits from special development funds, and special training programmes. Dalits (formerly known as untouchables) are a scheduled caste occupying the lowest layer of the Hindu caste system.British Home Office

Articles used in Indian Caste System

These articles are for my personal reference,No writing between the lines for textual integrity

• Anti-Caste Home page
• An Anti-caste forum
• From the same site interesting information on how untouchables were used in Gujarat riots
• How State sponsored genocide took place in Gujarat
• "This state-sponsored mass murder is a model for the genocide of Muslims and other religious minorities the Hindu right would like to carry out across the subcontinent. Ashok Singhal, the international president of the VHP, has called it “a successful experiment, which will be repeated all over the country now.”"
• Sikand's book review

Hindutva- Rewriting Hinduism

These articles are for my personal reference,No writing between the lines for textual integrity

• What Hindutva vadis want by rewriting Indian history and theology -

The contentious changes pushed by the Hindutva groups serve three purposes:

• Sanitise Indian history of its gross inequities. Talk about caste only in the past tense, remove anything suggesting that caste still determines the status of people in Indian society, and say that men did not have “more” rights than women, they just had “different” rights.

• Portray Hinduism as very similar to Judaism and Christianity — the politically dominant religions in the US. Erase references to plurality in Hinduism by tricks such as replacing “Hindu gods” with “the Hindu God”, and deleting text that says Hinduism comprises “many beliefs, many forms of worship, and many gods”.

• India as “Pitribhumi” only for Hindus. Delete references to a possible non-indigenous origin of the Indo-Aryans and move the origins of Hinduism back in time, making ‘foreigners’ of all non-Hindu Indians.

• Amartya Sen - Nobel Prize winner on rewriting Indian History
• The rewriting of India's history serves the dual purpose of playing a role in providing a common basis for the diverse membership of the Sangh Parivar, and of helping to get fresh recruits to Hindu political activism, especially from the diaspora. It has thus become a major priority in the politics of Hindutva in contemporary India. Following the electoral victory of coalitions led by the BJP in 1998 and 1999, various arms of the government of India were mobilized in the task of arranging `appropriate' rewritings of Indian history.Friends of South Asia - An editor calls this terrorist sympathisers
• As for the caste system, its social divisive and hence exploitative character is sought to be camouflaged.
• Fascism
• Politics of Rewriting History in India
• The Hindu period is written as the golden period, whereas the Muslim period constitutes an interregnum defined by oppression and hostility - Romila Thapar - Hindutvavadis loathe her for her truthfulness
• The Indus Valley Decipherment Hoax - Inventing History
• Muslims, Christians and Parsis should adopt “the Hindu culture and language” and revert to the Hindu faith or should live “wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation” without any rights or privileges (Golwalkar 1945, 52-53)
• Not much is known about the R.S.S. in the West. After Sept. 11, the Hindu nationalists have presented themselves as reliable allies in the fight against Muslim fundamentalists. But in India their resemblance to the European Fascist movements of the 1930's has never been less than clear. In his manifesto We, or Our Nationhood Defined (1939), Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar, supreme director of the R.S.S. from 1940 to 1973, said that Hindus could profit from the example of the Nazis, who had manifested race pride at its highest by purging Germany of the Jews. According to him, India was Hindustan, a land of Hindus where Jews and Parsis were guests and Muslims and Christians invaders.
• India's missing women
• The sangh parivar has successfully expanded its operations overseas, inviting inºuential and afºuent Indian expatriate communities into its fold.The RSS Web site proudly boasts that “similar work is going on in over 100countries where volunteers are busy organizing Hindus under different organizations.

Finally Why they want to add that Caste has a basis in Muslim religion here - Sulekha.com

"Hindutva groups objected to the prominence given in the texts to the caste system and ‘untouchability,’ which they asserted were not distinguishing features of Hinduism.30 They also tried to make a case that one’s varna status during Vedic times was not hereditary, but was ‘capacity-based.’31

HAF’s attempt to distance Hinduism from the caste system is disingenuous. As our forefathers knew only too well, there is little basis for either of the above assertions, which have been firmly repudiated by leading religious figures like the well-respected late Sri Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati, Shankaracharya of Kamakoti Peetam (who also staunchly defended the ‘dharmic traditions’ of caste, which he felt must be protected and kept live.): “I will give firm proof in support of the view that caste is based on birth and not on the nature or quality of individuals.”32

HAF also complained that “other religions can historically also be associated with practices discarded by modern standards.”33 While that is true, HAF fails to acknowledge that unlike practices like slavery and serfdom, which are universally condemned today, prominent Hindu leaders -– including leaders of RSS and VHP, with whom California Hindutva groups are closely linked -– time and again defend the caste system, and distance themselves from ‘untouchability’ (VHP leader Ashok Singhal recently went to the extent of accusing Muslims of creating the abhorrent system!)34

Do the textbooks overemphasize caste? Hindu elites in the United States may very well feel so; but the books also encourage comparisons with the class system in the U.S. and try to stimulate discussions on whether the caste system was a good way to organize society at the time35. We would be doing a disservice to the students of Indian history, if we did not encourage such debates, without which a proper understanding of contemporary India would be well-nigh impossible.

As for the practice of untouchability, whether sanctioned by Hindu scriptures or not, it is prominently mentioned in the textbooks only because Hinduism’s “modern standards” have failed to discard it; and its coverage in the books, in my view, is entirely consistent with California’s Model Curriculum on Human Rights.56 It is a pity that HAF, which calls itself a Hindu human rights organization, has done precious little to address this massive violation of human rights practiced uninterruptedly for centuries, and chooses instead to defend the ‘human rights’ of Hindu elites."

Please do not corrupt the textual integrity of the above text by writing in between.These are for my refernce.

Articles for consultation: Hindutva and Misplaced Pages as a medium to redefine history

Virtual Warfare: The Internet as the New Site for Global Religious Conflict

• resurgent Hindu fundamentalism (Hindutva) is redefining Hinduism and Hindu identities in a transnational, global context. The global project of Hindutva makes use of new global communication channels, including the Internet, and is apparently espoused by influential sections of the transnational Hindu middle class, especially in the United States. This paper examines a selected sample of Internet sites devoted to the spread of religious and fundamentalist beliefs and ideas particularly relevant to India and transnational Hinduism, and explores the ways in which the Internet is changing the shape of communities and the ways in which they represent one another. The paper puts forth the argument that in the context of globalization, the Net has become an important space for the creation of transnational religious identities. The Net is shaping religion, specifically Hinduism, in distinct ways and is the newest expression of religion's changing face. The battle for souls is being fought on Internet sites. The questions of this paper relate to the modes of representation of "other religions" as revealed particularly by Hindu sites, the ways in which Internet sites garner audiences, and the strategies they adopt to link themselves with both global audiences and local groups. A sociological analysis will reveal the shape of these discourses and link their popularity with the social and political context of globalization, a liberalized economy, and the organization of religious practice in post1990s India."

RSS: A terrorist organisation

Times of India The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is furious with an American think-tank for declaring it a terrorist organisation and lumping it with a host of jihadi organisations and secessionist outfits. RSS shares company with many Kashmiri groups

• TRC is closely connected to the American government. The credibility of this centre vis-a-vis US government can be gauged from the fact that many of its directors and researchers have closely worked with US administration.
• RSS is elusive and shadowy—it is only open to Hindu males – primarily upper caste; it maintains no membership records; it has resisted being registered with the Government of India as a public/charitable trust; it has no bank accounts and pays no income tax.
• the world's attention has properly been focused on the violence of Islamic extremism, but there are also major violent trends in Hindu extremism that have largely been ignored in the United States

Having the last comment does not mean that the debates have been won

Some editors here have the habit of leaving their comments as the last one to ensure that if a third party sees them - they will believe their arguments have won.Some of these are persistent editors with a lot of free time.One has to ensure to see through the discussions and not be duped TerryJ-Ho 11:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Personal Attack

Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you.

diff (in edit summary): http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ATerryJ-Ho&diff=83072778&oldid=83072077

Hkelkar 21:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

::That is not a WP:PA - it does not apply on misuse of the templates TerryJ-Ho 10:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The Think Tank Link

Is very interesting:

It is ..The Hindu one tops it all.As it is the largest supposedly cultural organisation.Islamic organisations are all well known (for their activities) and they don't hide behind the facade of Cultural organisations TerryJ-Ho 10:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

According to them, Known terrorist groups Operating in India:

Muslim:25

Christian:4

Communist:5

Hindu:1

Per: http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=113#terrorism

Organizations who dispute this assertion: Muslim:0 Christian:0 Communist:1 (Maoists) Hindu:1 (Despite the fact that the Hindutvaadis suck at publicity and the Islamofascists excel at it). http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1123740,prtpage-1.cms

Hindutuvavadis are the champions - in fact there is a list of research that has gone into the field of how the Hindutvavadis exploit the media for their petty ends TerryJ-Ho

ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhh!What great WP:NOR. I enjoy refuting you my friend.You seem not to understand the concept of "Gracious in defeat". I have an Urdu word for you: Tehezeeb .Hkelkar 23:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Graciousness to disgraced does not apply.I don't write like you mate with such long ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhs and dear watson this tells greatly how pissed off you are....Tehzeeb does not apply to BeTehzib..it is extended to people with refined outlook..By the way you should remember the base of Misplaced Pages and that is WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A BATTLEFIELD..Stop using words like Victory,Defeat,Jihad and Crusade,Show me where do you prove from your own point that this is not a WP:NOR - "Despite the fact that the Hindutvaadis suck at publicity and the Islamofascists excel at it" and remember that you have already got the last warning on Incivility.TerryJ-Ho 09:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmmm. I smell a pattern here, eh (Muslim=25)? Thanks for the ref man!I'll get a subscription from the University. I'm sure I can get a lot of juicy-juicy dirt here.Hkelkar 22:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Get one.It will help you TerryJ-Ho

Oh, yes. I will.Hkelkar 23:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Look at the references...

The word "Caste" is really mentioned. Read WP:NOR again wrt your edits.Hkelkar 16:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Article referenced at number 2 - has not a single refence to word "Caste"

What do the artcles say?TerryJ-Ho

Which article are you talking about exactly?Hkelkar 16:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

No use of the word Caste in this article that claims to support "There is also a caste system among Indian Muslims" .Secondly, even this source is suspect.Article is written by a MD Doctor whose credentials are not established as a sociologue.Read WP:NORyourself TerryJ-Ho 16:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

From reference:

The Muslims in India are categorized into two distinct classes based on their origins.This is similar to the caste system of Hinduism (so called Varnashrama)

However, you make a valid point concerning the doc.I think it's ok to get rid of the ref as we have clearly established that Muslims do have a caste system.Hkelkar 16:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

::Which article states above?Which Muslims have caste system.Do all of them?TerryJ-Ho

Take a look at the talk page of the article. A discussion was initiated as to the caste system in Latin America.The ref is there as a stop gap measure. I am getting books from the library that clearly detail the Latin American Caste System, which is why I put up an expansion tag.Plus, the JSTOR ref backs up the other citation and you need to establish that the source is not reliable.Hkelkar 17:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to get too far help is at hand with Encyclopedia Brittanica: Your edits are based on a wrong premise..In Latin America Caste does not correspond to the traditional use of Caste in English.Since the word is spanish it is extensively used to refer to racial segregation.See Encycolpedia Brittanica

<a title="All about caste on Britannica.com" href="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9020678/caste">Information from Encyclopædia Britannica about caste</a> TerryJ-Ho

refs for Latino castes:

1. Caste in a peasant society by Marvin Tumin
2. Human tradition in colonial Latin America by K. Andrien (establishes history)
3. Born in Blood and Fire: A Concise History of Latin America by J Chasteen
4. Latin American Civilization: History and Society, 1492 to the Present B. Keen (clearly mentions caste system)
5. Race and Nation in Modern Latin America by James Herriot et al. Talks about caste system today

I will get these books and expand the section.Hkelkar 17:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You can expand anything but the real problem is that you fail to understand that these are different concepts.We have to go with the most accepted framework of caste or define each one differently as they mean and not mix all of them TerryJ-Ho

The article is titled Caste so all Castes need mentioning in all countries, not just the people you want to kill.Hkelkar 17:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

But then define them separately - bring in a dismbiguation page rather than bring an apology of the Hindu Caste system TerryJ-Ho

Not with your flagrant WP:NOR violations dost.Hkelkar 17:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Where? TerryJ-Ho

Pretty much everywhere actually, against consensus besides.Hkelkar 18:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I am extending to you an official apology for your perceptions of incivility on my part. I expect an apology from you for your "Shut up" quip.Hkelkar 21:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure,To having to respond that way "Shut up" is regrettable.I have come online now only.On the other hand for you to respond to Basawala immediately after your apology by saying "Don't bother me" does take away a little value off your apologyTerryJ-Ho

Tagging Caste

Hi TerryJ-Ho, nice to know that you're trying to remove uncited material. That will certainly help Misplaced Pages, but tags shouldn't be put unless you discuss with the other party. Simply adding tags will not serve any purpose except provoking an edit-war. Remember, Misplaced Pages is not a Battlefield. Try to discuss with other editors and reach a consensus. So, assume good faith and contribute to Misplaced Pages. I welcome your contributions, but please keep cool and discuss !

--NRS | /_M\ 07:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

== On Koenraad Elst ==

Hello TerryJ-Ho. I've been working quite some time on the main and discussion pages of Koenraad Elst. I tried to maintain the "controversies" section about this author from vandalization by our well known[REDACTED] Hindutva young wanderers... The fact that these people are trying to hide is that Koenraad Elst is quite suspect of ties with the right-wing (and also antisemitic) Dutch-Belgium (and now defunct) Vlaams-Block and with right-wing american neocons like Pipes. I saw that you conducted a survey about Koenraad Elst some time ago. Did you draw any conclusions about this author ? I'd be glad you'd share them with me. Cheers. TwoHorned 11:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)