Talk:Craig Murray: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 10:09, 11 May 2018 editKashmiri (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users43,540 edits →Condense ← Previous edit		Revision as of 19:07, 18 May 2018 edit undoKalHolmann (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users5,971 edits →User:Philip Cross has COI: new sectionNext edit →
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	:: That said, I also think we should be careful not to make this article into a polemic with Murray's blog.		:: That said, I also think we should be careful not to make this article into a polemic with Murray's blog.
	:: Cheers, — ] ] 10:05, 11 May 2018 (UTC)		:: Cheers, — ] ] 10:05, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

			== User:Philip Cross has COI ==

			A discussion is ongoing at the ] concerning ]'s admitted conflict of interest in editing that and related BLPs, including ]. ] (]) 19:07, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:07, 18 May 2018

Nadira Alieva was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 22 December 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Craig Murray. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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Archives

/Archive 1

Craig's Website

In the Legal Pressure section it's stated that Craig Murray's web hosting company shut down his site in September 2007. I notice that Craig's new site is now down, and has been like that for a couple of days (i.e. since at least 14th Sept 2009). Is anybody aware of any further legal action, or any other reason that could have caused this? Darriuk (talk) 19:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It's back online now. A temporary blip. Darriuk (talk) 09:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per request as the primary topic.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:44, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Craig Murray (activist) → Craig Murray —

This article has just been moved from Craig Murray to Craig Murray (activist) without prior discussion or announcement. I object to the move because the ex-ambassador, author and former university rector who is the subject of this article is certainly a lot more notable than a random guy who played hockey for a Canadian college for four years (so his article should be the primary topic, see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC), and also because "activist" is a very inappropriate way of pigeon holing him. I also note that the relatively new editor who did this appears primarily interested in politics, not hockey, so I can't help feeling this looks suspiciously like sneaky POV pushing. Hans Adler 00:30, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree; the for template pointing to the hockey player was fine. Also all the wikilinks to "Craig Murray" have not been changed by whoever created the dab page - moving back is the easiest fix for this. Rwendland (talk) 01:24, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Support. This article was viewed 1900 times in February, compared to 60 for Craig Murray (ice hockey). Station1 (talk) 00:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Support Clear primary topic: much more notable on general grounds, much higher page view traffic, and overwhelming number of incoming links to Craig Murray. --NSH001 (talk) 09:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment. Do we have to wait the 7 days? This seems an obvious revert case. In the meantime people may waste time changing wikilinks in other articles. Rwendland (talk) 16:30, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Since Craig Murray has been edited after the move, it can only be reverted by an admin. I would of course not be opposed to a speedy move. Hans Adler 18:56, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Due to the many broken links, I've redirected Craig Murray back to this article pending conclusion of this discussion. Station1 (talk) 20:03, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Documents

... Murray has stated is the government "trying to claw back the very limited gains in Freedom of Information in the UK", especially attempts to close websites on which the supporting documents were posted instead. Though many attempts to do this have proved successful, media interest has also meant that the documents frequently re-surface on mirror sites ...

The documents are on his web site now. The timeline is a bit of a mess.

Would be good if this could be tidied up.

Rich Farmbrough, 02:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC).

Removed

Controversies

According to Paul Craig Roberts,

“

As the former UK Ambassador Craig Murray disclosed, the purpose of the war is to protect Unocal's interest in the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline.

”

The World's Least Powerful Man, by Paul Craig Roberts, 1 December 2009

--end-- Seems more about promoting Roberts than adding to the article. Rich Farmbrough, 02:34, 4 January 2013 (UTC).

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Craig Murray's photograph

In an entry for his blog, Craig Murray wrote on 26 January 2010:

“

Could someone who knows how to do it, kindly replace my photo on Misplaced Pages with a more flattering one?

I am very grateful to the person who took and posted it, but at the time I was standing on a train while stooping to speak into a microphone tethered on a short lead three feet from the ground, As a result I look stunted and a very strange shape (no offence meant to anyone who is a very strange shape).

Pure vanity, and I am sorry.

”

In the choice of images to illustrate articles, editors' are not supposed to use any which do not present the subject in a good light. (I cannot currently locate the policy document.) At present, Wikimedia Commons contains only the image of Murray which, in 2010, he rightly found unsatisfactory. As an image for a biography article is desirable, but not essential, it seemed best to remove it. However, a new entry in his blog concerns my edits to this and other articles in which he says I "even removed my photo on the extraordinary grounds that it was 'not typical' of me." So it seems his current thinking on this relatively trivial issue is not as it was six years ago, and have reverted my edit.

Philip Cross (talk) 13:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Your last sentence is a breach of WP:BLP, being a potentially defamatory personal opinion stated as fact, and should be deleted.

On the AI case concerning Craig Murray's own edits to this article you wrote: "An IP editor, User talk:86.179.232.251, who identifies himself in the edit summary as Craig Murray himself, persists in restoring legally sensitive material about the Julian Assange case, breaking the WP:BLP policy in libeling one of Assange's alleged victims. Obviously, there is no reliable, third party, source for Murray's claims." Obviously, so long as the material is presented in the article as a set of statements made by Craig Murray on his blog, the blog itself is a sufficiently reliable source. Those statements which had not beeen presented as something he had written, could easily have been recast to conform.

← ZScarpia 23:22, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Murray, Craig (26 January 2010). "Vanity posting". Craig Murray. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

Lap dancer

my life lap dancer - she wrote this herself. 'I had asked him which bus would take me to the club.'

'she was forced to swap her respectable but low-paid teaching position for a job in a lap-dancing club and how Murray spotted her there and took her away from it all.' the squalid truth Why is Murray allowed to dictate the articles language? 92.3.26.69 (talk) 19:16, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

He is not, and I changed the reference for consistency after realising the Max Hastings review of Murder in Samarkand could resolve what I perceived to be a problem. As the later theatre show which featured Nadira Alieva was The British Ambassador's Bellydancer, she was later previously referred to as having been a "lap dancer" in the "personal life and awards" section, which looked odd to me. In any case, Alieva is described as having been an "exotic dancer" in many other sources. I know the former Ambassador has a mixed reputation, but Murray seems to be the main source as to the details of his first meeting with his second wife. The Daily Mail, because it is a tabloid newspaper, is frowned upon as a source for editors to use, see Identifying reliable sources. Philip Cross (talk) 20:06, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough - I loathe the Daily Mail myself, but the woman wrote the article herself. She says the club where they met was was one where she was 'dancing in just my underwear but the other girls seemed as comfortable as if they were skipping around their own bedrooms.

I admired how professional they were and by the end of the first week I had found my nerve.

It was at the club in April 2003 that I met Craig Murray.' my life lap dancer - that becomes for Murray 'a belly dancing club'. He is dictating the articles language if you ask me, but I respect you as an editor. But belly dancing, as I've seen it portrayed in films, and I remember I saw Lawrence Durrell in a film at one performance, is highly skilled , is something different - and the dancer didn't wear 'just underwear'. the text as is stands 'where she was working as a belly dancer' looks bad to me - if she was working as a belly dancer why didn't she write that in the Mail article? 92.3.26.69 (talk) 20:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

After looking at you last link, I find the main use of the term "lap dancer" in Alieva's Mail article is in the article's heading (which would have been written by a sub-editor), while the principal reference to nude dancing is from the brief period when she worked for Spearmint Rhino in London, not Taskent, as is the sole reference in the article to her time as a lap dancer. So on this evidence, "lap dancer" still seems inappropriate for Murray's article. Philip Cross (talk) 21:31, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm not arguing for 'lap dancer' necessarily, I'm just saying 'belly dancer' isn't supported by the evidence she herself presented of dancing around in underwear. You think that is her saying she was a 'belly dancer' -?? Murray is making out he met her at some kind of cultural event if you ask me - 'a belly dancing club'. It should be 'where the couple met while she was working in a club where the women danced in their underwear' - and thats from his wifes own account. 92.3.26.69 (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

The full title of "the squalid truth" Mail article from December 2007 is "The squalid truth about Our Man in Uzbekistan and his belly dancer lover", and the content also suggests "belly dancer" is the correct term to use. Other editor's are likely to take a dim view, if any of the more salacious material about the club in Taskent were to be added. I should know, I have been burnt a few times, mainly in my editing of the article about the arch-establishment writer Paul Johnson. Philip Cross (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm talking abut the article she wrote - if you think it suggests 'belly dancer' is the correct term to use for what the dancers were doing at the club where she met Murray, well, I just don't agree with you, but won't belabour the point any more. The article should be as 'salacious' as the reality it seeks to present in my opinion, no more , no less. At first I was shy about dancing in just my underwear - by the end of the first week I had found my nerve - What 'nerve' is required to be a belly dancer? Skill, yes, but 'nerve' ? Her own version means surely at first she was nervous about dancing around in her underwear in this club but after a week she lost her nerves. But whatever, let the whitewashers win . 92.3.26.69 (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

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Please translate for Americans

The British educational systems is outstandingly obtuse to an American. Please translate this sentence into some string of words internationally intelligible:

He spent seven years in total at the university, he had to sit one year twice for not attending tutorials, compared to a normal four for a Scottish first degree."

This makes no sense to an American. For example the word "sit" cannot mean sit above. Americans in university (last I knew & I have a number of American degrees) do not attend tutorials, whatever tutorials are. The sentence seems to imply that Murray was penalized for not attending tutorials and had to so something twice, yet the article goes on to saying that there are "a normal four" (four what? four tutorials?). So it sounds like he was penalized to have to do something twice, though the normal is four. Twas brillig & the slithy toves, did gyre & gimbel in the wage. (PeacePeace (talk) 19:19, 13 June 2017 (UTC))

'Sit' suggests he had to re-do a whole year and sit the exams again, because he had failed to attend tutorials (these are individual tuition sessions which a small number of students -- it could be just two, or even one -- must attend with their assigned member of teaching staff, usually every two weeks during term). 'Four' is the normal number of years for a Scottish first degree, compared to three in England. How he strung the whole thing out to seven years, God knows, but then he's done a lot of strange things. Khamba Tendal (talk) 21:03, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

And he's just done another strange thing (not that that is saying much, as he does something strange every few hours) with this tweet, which looks remarkably like an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory:- https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/974192978574094337 Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:05, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

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The Washington Times

IP user:46.208.174.77 has objected to my use of this source because the citation is dependant on the Daily Mail which is rather notorious on this site.

WP:CONTEXTMATTERS says "In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication". Which would not seem to exclude The Washington Times, which is not a "tabloid" in the meaning of Yellow journalism, of which the Mail is regularly accused.

In addition, WP:BLPSOURCES says: "Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources" (my emphasis).

The disputed issue has been mentioned elsewhere, and is therefore not invalid for inclusion. That "Murray denies the Daily Mail assertion" (see the edit history) is not a reason for excluding it.

The self-published writings of the subject of an article are normally admissible, but Murray's blog contains contentious claims about living third-parties which are potentially libellous. So it is best avoided most of the time. I should have edited this article more often. Murray's outburst about the Scottish independence referendum ('No' voters being "evil, or quite extraordinarily thick") should have been properly cited before now. Philip Cross (talk) 21:20, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:DAILYMAIL, we do not use anything that is sourced to that newspaper. Additionally, the diverging political agendas between Murray and Daily Mail make the paper an even less reliable source on Murray. Washington Post's editorial policies might differ, but here we are editing an encyclopaedia, not a news piece. — kashmīrī 03:58, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Condense

This article has become an ideological battlefield. Part of the problem is that it is overloaded with selective citations, both from Murray's blog and public media. While direct quotes are not a bad practice per se, here they have became a

I started condensing the article, so as to keep the key facts and leave out the majority of trivia, lengthy citations, and forum-like discussions on the quotes. Yes, it all was making an interesting read, but the style was definitely appropriate in a biographical work on Murray but not in an encyclopaedia. Nor do we need lengthy listings of media reactions to some words uttered by Murray: he is not US President but just a blogger and activist.

I am breaking now but feel welcome to continue the improvement work. — kashmīrī 04:49, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Cutting an article, as here, can still be problematic. The subject can complain about an article for this reason too. It is possible I cut too much from the article about Nafeez Ahmed who, like Murray, has complained vociferously about my edits on Twitter.

The "Subsequent career" passage is now rather breathless in tone, whereas the "Family and education" now seems overlong in comparison. The description of his time in the Young Liberals around 1973-74 may be difficult to source properly. While Murray remains best known for his period as British Ambassador in Tashkent, it now appears he has become more mellow in recent years, which potentially misleads readers. His outburst on Newsnight in 2012, which is now omitted, gained much media attention at the time and is the one example of his later unwise comments to choose. (He was not wrong to oppose the Karimov government; a subtext in the Uzbekistan section tries to suggest the issues raised by Murray doing so in 2002–4.) It might be best to restore the Newsnight issue with less detail, because it can certainly be sourced appropriately, and cut the passage on his involvement with the Young Liberals. Philip Cross (talk) 06:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@Philip Cross: Agree, the balance is still not perfect and some sections (e.g., the Uzbekistan part) are overly detailed while others perhaps too cursory.

Cutting the Uzbekistan part needs to be done in my view, although the pace of narration is much more stable there, which would require condensing/rewriting rather than mere cutting which was easy to do elsewhere.

The media interview was a typical WP:ONEEVENT that nobody will care about in 10 years from now – just as we don't really care about celebrities' media interviews of 15 years ago, even if they made headlines at the time. Actually, this is my perspective when editing: trying to judge whether a particular piece of information will be of interest to a reader in 20 years from now, i.e., in 2038. So, as much as Murray's engagement in politics - party membership, standing for parliamentary elections, etc. - are an important aspect of his biography to me, all of his individual speeches or interviews did not really make history, so I removed them per WP:NOTADIARY.

As for the subject complaining, I admit I don't care much, mainly because people with COI should have no influence over the Misplaced Pages content. I even recall situations where subjects explicitly requested to be deleted from Misplaced Pages altogether and this was turned down at AfD (this is my memory only, I am unable to link to the cases at this time). Also, I don't expect Murray to discuss his Misplaced Pages entry, as he surely remembers the story of shill editing on Alisher Usmanov (see last section there). I will take a look at Nafeez Ahmed article later.

That said, I also think we should be careful not to make this article into a polemic with Murray's blog.

Cheers, — kashmīrī 10:05, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

User:Philip Cross has COI

A discussion is ongoing at the George Galloway talk page concerning User:Philip Cross's admitted conflict of interest in editing that and related BLPs, including Craig Murray. KalHolmann (talk) 19:07, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

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