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	That's great, but Gnosticism should be at the head. It was killed off by the Pauline orthodoxy in the third and fourth centuries, before all the Councils.<ref>http://~~books.google~~.com/~~books?id=ZiMPAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22grounds+of+christianity+examined%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Mp~~-~~bUqL8EMOayQH134HoCg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22grounds%20of%20christianity%20examined%22&f=false~~</ref> ] (]) 11:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)		That's great, but Gnosticism should be at the head. It was killed off by the Pauline orthodoxy in the third and fourth centuries, before all the Councils.<ref>http://rememberingthegnosticmovement.com/about/gnostic-judas/</ref> ] (]) 11:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

	== POV in lede ==		== POV in lede ==

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Gnosticism can be Christian

I got a revert saying "Gnosticism is NOT Christianity". There are certainly Gnostic groups that are not Christian but I never claimed that Gnosticism is Christianity, rather, I said there are Christian denominations that are Gnostic, they are Gnostic Christians and as such their beliefs should be considered also when defining Christianity. (talk) 23:58, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

As gnosticism is a heresy, any person holding those beliefs is anathema (i.e. not part of the Communion). So there are no Gnostic Christians. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Holy Guacamole! But who has the authority to declare another denomination heretic? I think all denominations can declare each other heretic so in short it can be said that all Christian denominations are heretic. I will remind you about Misplaced Pages:NPOV policy though. Thinker78 (talk) 04:07, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

There are no Christian teachers, either mainstream or minority, that consider Gnostic teachings to be orthodox. If there are sources that say otherwise, I'd be interested to review them. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:22, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Thinker78 is right. Gnosticism should be included. Not only is it not heresy, except to those who don't understand it, it can be proven to be THE SOURCE of orthodoxy. Yes, that's my book. It can't be used as a reference. But it is true. The Gospel of Judas proves that the Bible is false and always has been. 'Judas' is just a cover for the successor, James the Just -- the real first century savior.Sahansdal (talk) 11:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Citation on this line ?

"The late 20th century has shown the shift of Christian adherence to the Third World and southern hemisphere in general, with the western civilization no longer the chief standard bearer of Christianity". Τζερόνυμο (talk) 17:30, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Irrespective of sourcing, I see no merit in the claim that "western civilization no longer the chief standard bearer of Christianity." It's an unfalsifiable opinion. Also, the word "chief" is redundant and I'm pretty sure that "standard bearer" is hyphenated. Lukacris (talk) 00:42, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Let's have a conversation about major branches

Recently the wording of part of the lead section was altered from "Worldwide, the three largest branches of Christianity are the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and the various denominations of Protestantism." to "Worldwide, the largest branches of Christianity are the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, as well as thousands of denominations and congregations of Protestantism, the latter due to fundamentally different ecclesiology." I have restored the previous wording as I think the new version has some issues, but I want to have a conversation about whether any aspects of the new version should be included and if so how to do so.

My reasons for restoring:

The sentence is about major branches, not denominations. The new wording presents the protestant denominations individually, instead of the major branch of Christianity that is Protestantism as a whole.
The Oriental Orthodox communion does not fit in either as a major branch (as we do not list other groupings of similar size such as Anglicanism or Lutheranism) or as a denomination (as it is composed of multiple denominations).
The sentence immediately following explains the origin of these three major branches in the the East-West Schism and the Reformation. Reasons of style and factual accuracy indicate that we should preserve that parallel.
The addendum stating that Protestantism split off due to "fundamentally different ecclesiology" is an oversimplification at best and inaccurate at worst, and in any case is out of place here. We should leave the explanation for the article body, or for the bluelinks.
The wording "thousands of denominations and congregations of Protestantism" is dubious (depending on how you count you can get anything from 200 to tens of thousands of denominations) and in any case misses the point of listing major branches.

Things I think would be good to discuss:

There exist significant groups such as the Oriental Orthodox communion which do not fall into any of the three branches. Is there an appropriate way to mention them in the lead paragraph?
Is there a better way to effectively describe Protestantism as a branch of Christianity that is composed of many independent groups?
Is there anything I am failing to consider in all of this, or ways the article could be improved that I haven't thought of?

I would appreciate any input! -- LWG 21:45, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

I think that this diagram would be a useful addition to the discussion. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:19, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Major denominational families in Christianity:
This box:

Western Christianity Eastern Christianity Protestantism Anabaptism Anglicanism Lutheranism Reformed (Latin Church) Catholic Church (Eastern Catholic Churches) Eastern Orthodox Church Oriental Orthodox Churches Church of the East Schism (1552) Assyrian Church of the East Ancient Church of the East Protestant Reformation (16th century) Great Schism (11th century) Council of Ephesus (431) Council of Chalcedon (451) Early Christianity Great Church (Full communion)

(Not shown are ante-Nicene, nontrinitarian, and restorationist denominations.)

References

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1524627607/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk

That's great, but Gnosticism should be at the head. It was killed off by the Pauline orthodoxy in the third and fourth centuries, before all the Councils. Sahansdal (talk) 11:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

POV in lede

I recommend changing the words "Jesus Christ" in the lede to "Jesus of Nazareth, known as the Christ by Christians". It's POV as written since Christians see Jesus as the Christ—or Messiah—but Jews, for example, do not. --Airborne84 (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

March 2018

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Revert this (and subsequent edits to the same material by the same editor) - not otherwise discussed in article and part of continuous POV pushing by the same editor on that topic - also not supported by a reliable, neutral source. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:49, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:53, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

http://rememberingthegnosticmovement.com/about/gnostic-judas/

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