| Revision as of 05:09, 26 May 2018 editHijiri88 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,390 edits →If it's not COPYVIO, it's OR?: new section← Previous edit | Revision as of 06:27, 27 May 2018 edit undoMargin1522 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users11,033 edits →If it's not COPYVIO, it's OR?: SometimesNext edit → | ||
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| Regarding {{tq|''I've mentioned elsewhere my belief that once you get beyond dates and facts the same thought in different words is a different thought.''}} I think I've seen this thought expressed elsewhere on-wiki, but usually as a caricature of an opponent's view, not a sincerely held belief by someone who's been accused of close paraphrasing. But I'm curious how you can translate (which your user page says is your profession) if you think changing the words necessarily changes the thoughts. ] (<small>]]</small>) 05:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC) | Regarding {{tq|''I've mentioned elsewhere my belief that once you get beyond dates and facts the same thought in different words is a different thought.''}} I think I've seen this thought expressed elsewhere on-wiki, but usually as a caricature of an opponent's view, not a sincerely held belief by someone who's been accused of close paraphrasing. But I'm curious how you can translate (which your user page says is your profession) if you think changing the words necessarily changes the thoughts. ] (<small>]]</small>) 05:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC) | ||
| ::Right, I don't imagine it's a very popular idea. It's what the poets will tell you, but who reads poetry? And yes, I think there is tension between the ban on plagiarism and the ban on OR. The policy acknowledges it. You're supposed to get your ideas from elsewhere, but put them in your own words. Easier said than done, especially once you get past the level of verifiable facts. Which IMO is one reason why 90% of Misplaced Pages consists of verifiable facts. E.g. our article on ]. Inadequate on his ideas, although I guess also because that part would be hard regardless.<br/> | |||
| ::About translation, very roughly, at the two poles, you can try to sound natural or try to be faithful. I'm the latter. For example, I also do editing, and when I get a text by a European architect I will check that it's grammatical, intelligible, and accurate. But I don't try to make it sound like a native English speaker. If it sounds a bit strange, that's OK. It should, it was written by a foreigner. Translation is the same. It's the author's voice, not mine.<br/> | |||
| ::Anyway, it's not very often that a word gets the full Misplaced Pages treatment. But sometimes it does. For example, earlier this week I did a text that had a section about ]'s distinction between vernacular architecture and what my author called 様式建築. The straightforward translation for that would be "style-architecture". But that term is owned by ], in German since 1902 when his book ''Stilarchitektur und Baukunst'' was published, and in English since 1994 when a appeared. So I downloaded the original and translation (both free) and checked the context of every occurrence to see whether his usage was compatible with Rudofsky and my author's. It was, so I put the word in quotes, mentioned Muthesius in the text, and got permission to add a translator's note citing both editions. I guess if I can do this in a translation I can do it on Misplaced Pages too, and make Tony and Curly happy.– ] (]) 06:27, 27 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
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If it's not COPYVIO, it's OR?
Regarding I've mentioned elsewhere my belief that once you get beyond dates and facts the same thought in different words is a different thought.
I think I've seen this thought expressed elsewhere on-wiki, but usually as a caricature of an opponent's view, not a sincerely held belief by someone who's been accused of close paraphrasing. But I'm curious how you can translate (which your user page says is your profession) if you think changing the words necessarily changes the thoughts. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Right, I don't imagine it's a very popular idea. It's what the poets will tell you, but who reads poetry? And yes, I think there is tension between the ban on plagiarism and the ban on OR. The policy acknowledges it. You're supposed to get your ideas from elsewhere, but put them in your own words. Easier said than done, especially once you get past the level of verifiable facts. Which IMO is one reason why 90% of Misplaced Pages consists of verifiable facts. E.g. our article on Motoori Norinaga. Inadequate on his ideas, although I guess also because that part would be hard regardless.
- About translation, very roughly, at the two poles, you can try to sound natural or try to be faithful. I'm the latter. For example, I also do editing, and when I get a text by a European architect I will check that it's grammatical, intelligible, and accurate. But I don't try to make it sound like a native English speaker. If it sounds a bit strange, that's OK. It should, it was written by a foreigner. Translation is the same. It's the author's voice, not mine.
- Anyway, it's not very often that a word gets the full Misplaced Pages treatment. But sometimes it does. For example, earlier this week I did a text that had a section about Bernard Rudofsky's distinction between vernacular architecture and what my author called 様式建築. The straightforward translation for that would be "style-architecture". But that term is owned by Hermann Muthesius, in German since 1902 when his book Stilarchitektur und Baukunst was published, and in English since 1994 when a translation appeared. So I downloaded the original and translation (both free) and checked the context of every occurrence to see whether his usage was compatible with Rudofsky and my author's. It was, so I put the word in quotes, mentioned Muthesius in the text, and got permission to add a translator's note citing both editions. I guess if I can do this in a translation I can do it on Misplaced Pages too, and make Tony and Curly happy.– Margin1522 (talk) 06:27, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- Right, I don't imagine it's a very popular idea. It's what the poets will tell you, but who reads poetry? And yes, I think there is tension between the ban on plagiarism and the ban on OR. The policy acknowledges it. You're supposed to get your ideas from elsewhere, but put them in your own words. Easier said than done, especially once you get past the level of verifiable facts. Which IMO is one reason why 90% of Misplaced Pages consists of verifiable facts. E.g. our article on Motoori Norinaga. Inadequate on his ideas, although I guess also because that part would be hard regardless.