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User:DePiep and DYK

• DePiep (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I hate to come here, but DePiep's actions leave me with little option. DePiep has, over the past weeks, made a series of edits and/or suggestions on the technical side of DYK: , , , , , and several others.

These changes are made in good faith. However, when reverted or otherwise questioned about them, DePiep has responded with startling amounts of off-topic bellicosity, and very little genuine explanation. Thus, we've had there have been edit-wars on multiple pages here, and here. We've also had There have also been a number of discussions with a poor heat to light ratio: , , , , .

In all of these situations, DePiep has repeatedly:

1. Refused to explain what he is trying to do, instead using vague language like "cleanup" and "improvement"
2. Treated all demands for explanation as allegations of bad faith,
3. Refused to acknowledge that when his changes are queried, he needs to obtain consensus for them, and not the person who reverted him.

Ideally, I would simply like somebody to convince DePiep to cut out the bad faith, follow BRD, and tell us what he is trying to achieve. Failing that, it may be an unfortunate necessity that he be removed from the maintenance areas of DYK. Pinging @EEng, David Eppstein, Zanhe, and The Rambling Man: Vanamonde (talk) 11:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Replies to this post are below in #Reply by DePiep. -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• I was called a "dickhead" and "dickname"(diff) and had my username equated to "IPA:Auschwitz"(diff, diff) on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 58#enwiki has lost the WP:Palestine community by DePiep last month after I removed a duplicated WP Palestine (leaving it on top) - I'm still clueless as to why this was so offensive - removing a duplicate wikiproject seems to be a trivial non-contentious correction.Icewhiz (talk) 11:32, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

  Now I get it! Icewhiz = Auschwitz! Such perception! Such insight! EEng 22:00, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

  Indeed. Icewhiz has a thick skin, that sort of remark to some editors would end up here immediately. Icewhiz is active with WP:ISRAEL, and some will conclude that IW is Jewish (it's not on his user page though). It's hard to AGF a remark like the above, as opposed to a highly offensive, targeted attack against a Jewish editor. I can't think of any way to vindicate the above comment, in fact. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 01:27, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

  What really puzzles me here is what prompted this. I've made edits that I can understand why some other editors see as contentious. But removing a duplicate WP Palestine (it was there - twice)? Ignore the particular invectives - why the anger over this particular action of mine? At the time I chalked this up to perhaps editing not under the best circumstances that day or something similar - and did not pursue this - but it is perhaps relevant if there is a continued pattern.Icewhiz (talk) 06:34, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: See my reply below. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• I chanced upon a sudden slew of discussions on the DYK talkpage, all raised by DePiep. Most were causing heated debates, with the majority of the heat relating to the fact that DePiep seemed technically unable to sufficiently describe what he was trying to achieve in most instances. I certainly had trouble understanding a number of his comments. Even from today we have "For the rest: that going into the BF area, I think you should base that. - DePiep (talk) 10:30, 7 May 2018 (UTC)" for example. No idea. So when eventually DePiep accused me of a (mild) PA, and then claimed he was leaving the discussion with a "See you elsewhere, TRM. -DePiep (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2018 (UTC)", I stated that I hoped not. He then petulantly left me a message on my talk page with his very next edit. Generally it the whole series of posts has felt like an enormous waste of time from a disruptive editor who doesn't really appear to have the competence to make these kinds of edits or suggestions. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: A slew of discussions, all raised by DePiep -- Did I start too many talks? Isn’t that contradicting the OP notion? Or do I misread your post? A (mild) PA -- When I wrote “some other place” that refers to the WP:advice not to escalate a PA in the same thread. There is nothing more to it. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• The user in question has an unfortunate history with the block log. --Izno (talk) 16:01, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
  • DePiep also has significant history here at ANI. E.g., just last June he took a voluntary one-year topic ban (on anything related to earthquakes) in lieu of a six-month block.

Across a broad swath of topics he has shown a characteristic pattern: he jumps into something he thinks needs doing (often with wide-ranging effect), but sometimes not quite in tune with what others think should be done. And when challenged he generally does not respond well. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

@J. Johnson: I think this is an incorrect description of that ANI. There was nothing “in lieu of” a voluntary ban. Instead, I can see this as an example of me deescalating & solving. -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

In precisely what way is "he took a voluntary one-year topic ban ... in lieu of a six-month block" incorrect? Do you dispute that there was not a topic ban? Or that you did not voluntarily accept it? Or that it was not for one year? Or do you deny that there was any possibility of an involuntary block?

The closing admin (Dennis Brown) stated: "The evidence presented herein demonstrate there is a serious problem with DePiep's behavior." And: "Technically, I could block for 6 months here and no one would bat an eye." And concluded: "if you start causing serious problems with this topic, a (long) block will probably result." What you "deescalated" was your liklihood of getting blocked, which I believe was understood by all present to be in the offing. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:39, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

@J. Johnson:. You are misrepresenting that ANI. (again; I pointed this out before). Already in my very first reply there I proposed a voluntary topic ban . Only one full week later the closing admin mentioned what you call a “choice” . I also note there are notes regarding your behaviour. Please stop rewriting this history. Your own wishes, perceptions and interpretations are not the same as facts and closing statements. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

What I quoted (and highlighted) is from the closing statement. What is questionable here is your interpretation – here – that a "voluntary topic ban" is not a topic ban. In fact, when the closer said (and this also is from the closing statement): "DePiep, I am going to accept your voluntary topic ban (italics added), he characterized your sanction exactly as I have stated: a voluntary TOPIC BAN. The misrepresentation here is entirely yours. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I previously interacted with this user over a major revision of the {{OEIS}} template series. I think his changes were, ultimately, constructive, but they involved a similar "my way or the highway" attitude from DePiep, a distressing level of unconcern for making sure that the hundreds or thousands of existing uses of the template rendered correctly before making such changes, and a hostile response to any form of constructive criticism. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@David Eppstein: I think you refer to this (first section) discussion. I don’t think that discussion illustrates what this thread is about. In short, you protested that the /sandbox /testcases were broken (not the mainspace template), which I called irrelevant; also, I solved that afterwards and created a follow up thread for future improvements. i.e., constructive editing & discussing. If anything, this actually illustrates my start-a-talk approach we all consider good editing. Note the “I want” sentence. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• DePiep is very active at WP:WikiProject Pharmacology, where he tends to focus on stuff like templates more than on content. I also have seen, repeatedly, the obnoxious interaction style and the inflexibility, but he also does contribute in useful ways. I don't have any knowledge about the DYK problems, but I think that the situation does not go quite so far as WP:NOTHERE. It's somewhere between that and OK, not entirely one or the other. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:25, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
  • A skim through Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pharmacology/Archive 13 gives a pretty good view of what I'm referring to: mostly useful, occasionally unpleasant (the latter in one part of the "USAN etc in drugbox" thread). --Tryptofish (talk) 19:41, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: about the example you mention: there I started follow up sections #Restart and #Proposal (which went live eventually; also note I pinged editors). I can see this as an example of desired talkpage behaviour. I reject the suggestion of WP:NOTHERE, maybe you meant to say something else? - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. For the time being, I am going to comment only in regard to your response to me here. When I made my original comment, I was primarily pointing out that you make positive contributions to WikiProject Pharmacology. I agree with you that #Proposal, which was the outcome of the discussion, was a good outcome. As for #Restart, I'm pretty sure that another editor, Jytdog, started that part of the discussion, not you. What I saw as a problem was your interactions with Doc James, where you said: , , , . It started out as a simple misunderstanding between the two of you, but you unilaterally escalated it to (from last two edit summaries), "thanks for stating that you (Doc James) cannot be trusted" and "three dicks and you're out?". I then tried to intervene, and your response to me: , was completely one of deflecting your own responsibility to the other editor. That was bad, and the reason I did not pursue it was that the discussion got back on the right track after the other editors started the "restart". You appeared not to understand it then, and you appear not to understand it now. About my reference to "NOTHERE", I said it "does not" go that far, but you seem to be missing my use of the word "not". Maybe that indicates some language or communications difficulty, but much of what I am seeing indicates a behavioral problem that goes significantly beyond just language comprehension. I'm disappointed, therefore, in your response to me. As I said, I'm commenting for now just on this, but having also read all of your responses, I think I'm seeing a lot of deflection there too. If other editors confirm that hunch, my earlier willingness to cut you some slack will vanish. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

@Tryptofish:. You are right, that interaction with Doc James is abject. I wanted to note that I (we) pulled that topic out of the mud into a well-discussed live result. Wrt NOTHERE: indeed you said it did “not go quite so far as ... ”, but introducing the reference point has a meaning and an effect. I object even the mentioning of it, because NOTHERE clearly claims having a dishonest interest in the project. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Therefore, I want to make it clear that I do not consider you to be "NOTHERE". Full stop. The reason I first used the term was because other editors were seriously considering a site-ban, and I wanted to communicate that it would be too severe. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• As a DYK regular, I have never come across this user before nor had any interaction with him yet it appears to me that he has come into DYK out of the blue and made a number of edits to the technical workings of the project. Personally I don't see the logical reasoning behind his actions. The fact that there is consensus that he appears to be unaware that his tinkering is being disruptive suggests that maybe he should be advised to back off doing that. I never like to see topic bans but maybe this could be on the table. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 19:54, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
• More concerning is that he doesn't appear to understand basic concepts. Looking at this history and this one (on which he broke 3RR), plus the current discussion at WT:DYK, he doesn't seem to grasp the BRD cycle or the facat that consensus should be gained for contentious edits. That's actually a WP:CIR issue, when one is repeatedly told by multiple editors not to do something, and you carry on doing it anyway. Black Kite (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment Skimmed through here. User has not edited in some hours. Concerned that a very constructive editor in some areas has become overwrought. I think with DYK, they'd bit off too much, and they should leave it alone a while. DePiep, very interested in seeing your response.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:04, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Dlohcierekim for this careful post. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• perhaps we are having a life issue?-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 20:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't think this is out of the ordinary for this editor at all. The limited interactions I've had with De Piep have also led to me tumbling down a rabbit hole of odd accusations and some of the most obstinate WP:IDHT behaviour I've ever seen here.--Jezebel's Ponyo 21:11, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

• How odd -- since this thread began DePiep has fallen silent. I've never seen that happen before. EEng 12:53, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
• Seems unnecessary for me to pile on the chorus of accusations. I've already said enough about DePiep at WT:DYK#DYKbox improvements and other threads. I just want to add that it baffles me why a seemingly experienced and productive user like DePiep would behave as if he'd never heard of WP:BRD and consistently ignore the advice and arguments presented by numerous other users. -Zanhe (talk) 22:45, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

@Zanhe: Below I will reply to my BRD issues. - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• i am not able to read and respond, also for the next days. -DePiep (talk) 23:18, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

  Don't worry, DePiep -- "ANI flu" always clears up as soon as the thread in question is closed. EEng 09:42, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I'd have given a hefty block for the Auschwitz slur on its own. There's significant evidence here that this is a user who has talent and much to contribute but simply does not have personality type to be able to work collaboratively, making him totally unsuitable for contributing to Misplaced Pages. He communicates poorly, dislikes explaining himself, becomes incredibly irate over very small things and uses appalling slurs, including racial. I'm fairly well known for preferring lenient course of action with users, but I'll be proposing a community site ban for this user, unless they have some very persuasive things to say. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

• This user has a long history of awful behavior and refusal to make any kind of sense when their actions are questioned. Looks like the bn discussion below isn’t going through, but that doesn’t mean a block can’t be issued, and if they return without addressing these issues, a block can and will be issued. They’ve already been blocked ten times and have just ridden them all out and gone right back to their old ways. This must stop. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
• I would also support a block should DePiep return to editing without addressing the issues. It's clear from his long-term record that something fundamental needs to change in his interaction with other editors. If we do not see evidence of any willingness for that to happen, a forced preventative measure would be appropriate. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@Davey2010 and Beyond My Ken: the topic ban is for areas outside of mainspace and user space, so the editor is not topic banned from the entire project except this thread, and can return to editing without engaging in further discussion. This would, of course, limit the potential for future problematic behaviour. isaacl (talk) 15:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Blocked

I have issued an indefinite block. It seems obvious that their sudden suspension of activity was in response to these concerns, and their pattern of being blocked and just taking it without filing a formal unblock request suggests that anything less than an indefinite block will not achieve acceptable results. As I noted when blocking, they may be unblocked at any time so long as they agree to the re-opening of this discussion and pledge to actively particpate in it. They have dodged criticism by hiding for far too long. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

So ANI flu can be fatal after all. EEng 05:21, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

• I support the block - I'm still appalled by that "Auschwitz" slur. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Agreed; normally I'd have a little bit of a problem with an admin coming over the top and instituting a different sanction than that which was just agreed to by the community. But given that the conduct here was so egregious that any admin could arguably have indeffed them at any point without likely objection from the community, and given the "out" which Beeblebrox has supplied DePiep with, with regard to returning here to discuss the community's concerns, I can't say as I have much issue with this in the present case. Besides, after Swarm closed their proposal below, I began to second-guess the wisdom of allowing a user to have access to mainspace while otherwise effectively banned, considering how that situation could be gamed. Snow 03:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

• DePiep has just requested an unblock to address this discussion, so I have undone the close as suggested by the closer. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

  Unblocked. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:18, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Redux

Ok, it looks like this would be an appropriate time to restart this discussion since they are back and able to edit again. I believe this are the points that need to be addressed, but feel free to add on if I’ve missed anything:

• A pattern of becoming extremely defensive and/or refusing to clearly explain themselves when their edits are questioned
• Edit warring
• Responding to good-faith attempts at discussion with personal attacks
• specifcally the “Auschwitz” comments, which several users and admins have commented are reason enough for a block in and of themselves
• The fact that this is a highly experienced user who, despite 10 previous blocks, still doesn’t seem to have managed to learn to behave within minimum expected standards.

Again, feel free to add if I’ve missed anything important. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I think you've summed it up pretty well. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

• I would add, in light of his response to my comment of 00:24 9 May, that DePiep seems to be in denial of the circumstances where he accepted his voluntary topic ban, showing that he is still WP:NOTGETTINGIT. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• In case it wasn't obvious, I have pulled DePiep's TE right given the current topic ban, and some other reasons I recall from his past.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 02:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
• I too think Beeblebrox sums it up pretty well. I think the edit-warring and gross incivility are easily dealt with; if they recognize the problem, they're on a tight leash (a 1RR restriction may be appropriate), and can be blocked indef if they repeat that behavior; if they don't recognize the problem, we site-ban them here and now until they do. The first problem Beeblobrox describes is trickier to define, and trickier to address. I would there reiterate my proposal to remove them from maintenance areas, defined as any namespace outside articles, article talk pages, user pages, and user talk pages, with an exception for appealing and/or discussing sanctions about themselves. I proposed this below as a temporary remedy, but I believe it's the appropriate long-term step, too. This proposal is, of course, conditional on DePiep recognizing and promising to rectify the other problems with their behavior; otherwise, it is moot, and I would support a ban. Vanamonde (talk) 09:57, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree with Vanamonde, the issues have been summed up very well by Beeblebrox. If DePiep cannot explain their edits in the maintenance areas, then they should not be editing in that area, so under any circumstances this proposal should probably sustain. Alex Shih (talk) 04:46, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
• Preparing replies, basically to the top thread. - DePiep (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Been working continuously on this since (on/offline), but can't get it finished today. Need a rest. - DePiep (talk) 15:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

DePiep, you may not believe this but I really would like to help you get back to assisting with the project. For that to happen, though, your response here needs to reflect an attempt to understand why everyone (everyone) is upset with you, not an extended defense explaining how you were right all along. EEng 22:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

I do believe you. I am wrestling with my replies offline for days now. It is tough confrontations, and I must be honest & full out I know. Best of all is the time allowed (fast & short answers won't solve). I hope to post tomorrow, a batch of replies. I too want to join the project. -DePiep (talk) 23:54, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Just a thought... It can be quite traumatic facing up to your own problems, and as DePiep is keeping away from editing until this is resolved, I see no rush. I'd much rather we (DePiep and others) take the time to achieve an amicable solution that gets DePiep back to productive editing, than rush and get a poorer outcome. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, taking some time is good, for me at least, as I can read more carefully &tc. - DePiep (talk) 12:49, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment After blocking DePiep in 2015, I received this email comment from an editor, who shall remain anonymous: In case you wonder how I got involved, I have been working on the immensely complex Module: for nearly three years, and DePiep has been active on Template_talk: with helpful advice for those asking questions, and by managing the documentation. I have also seen DePiep's useful work in other areas. I fully acknowledge DePiep's problems and I think your block for an extremely pointless edit war on a template was reasonable. DePiep does not speak English fluently and sometimes misunderstands colloquialisms, and finds it hard to follow long and complex sentences (like the ones I write!). DePiep's style is sometimes unhelpful.—Bagumba (talk) 15:18, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Reply by DePiep

• First of all, I want to make my excuses for the edit regarding Icewhiz. That should not have happened in any case. Even worse I did not even self-correct at the time.

• Also, my 3RR breach with in Template:DYKbox was unacceptable, especially since it was about visible content. (For those interested, here is a better development route I started afterwards).

• Also this visible content change should have been done via the talkpage.

• Re me being absent : that was genuine in RL, it was not triggered by this ANI as some admins assumed. In the end the temporary blocks turned out as I too intended: first solve this thread (so the issue is moot). Meanwhile, these days helped me in finding a more relaxed and careful approach to the issues.

• In the top section, below the OP, I have replied to some individual complaints, that IMO are more isolated.

• For completeness, I note the discussions I started: this, , this, this; and I contributed to this.

• About my behaviour wrt BOLD, BRD, and talks. This is more subtle, so please bear with me. I write in reply to the three complaints that were made in the OP (now anchored):

Re #OP-1 vague language like "cleanup" and "improvement": As with many other similar template improvements I applied a technical-only edit: , . My experience with other templates and WikiProjects is, that these are *not* considered controversial. To me, the wording in an the es like “cleanup” or “move templatedata/category to documentation” is clear enough. Elsewhere I did link to this WP-document for explanation. Sometimes the edit should be self-clarifying I thought: e.g., removing texts like “Interwikis go to the documentation page” is heavily outdated.

I add that in other WikiProjects, I have applied competence including doing bold edits, and building consensus in more difficult template issues (see talks & archives of elem, chem, drug, track). This is not to claim authority, but to point out that the DYK community is different in this. Please understand that this is my background experience, and so I am quite surprised to discover & learn that in WP:DYK the sense is more like “hey, don’t even edit bold here”. Before the DYK talks started, I already had made some 100–150 technical edits to templates & documentation without problems or breaking one, which added to the surprise effect.

I think this difference explains most of my contributions to the talkpages. This is why I kept asking for: “what is broken?”. This also explains why I missed the underlying DYK-community requests to explain more, and to simply not edit at all.

Re #OP-2 Treated all demands for explanation as allegations of bad faith. Maybe you refer to this edit, which indeed is needlessly unfriendly. In that talkpage section I first did answer what I was doing . Then I got this bolded cursing, my reply asking to stay civil, canvassing/meatpuppeting, I asked to stop, ridiculing my English, then this. (BTW I am surprised that no editor here acted upon or even noted the abusive language in this last diff).

All this had happened in that section when Vanamonde93 made a fresh & clear restart with a bullet: . To that I did reply with content , and without . Rereading the section I think I did show some willingness to reply, but re Vanamonde93 I missed the deeper question obviously, and that latest diff was not clarifying, and not friendly I admit. Please note that the Vanamonde93 post appeared after the unhelpful language in the first half (diffs given above). At that point, my mood was not open for the constructive approach Vanamonde93 started.

It could be that Vanamonde93’s text “allegations of bad faith” actually meant to say “as personal attacks” (as Vanamonde93 did in their #Redux text). To this, my reply would be: in multiple occasions my knowledge of English was questioned , and even ridiculed . I have never met this complaint before. While this appears to have a base in WP:CIR, it certainly appeared to me as a PA (amid other unhelpful posts aimed at me), hence my replies. I don't think I started out making BF/PA accusations.

Re #OP-3 Refused to acknowledge that … he needs to obtain consensus for them: Correct in general, though above I have noted that sensitivity for (objection to) BOLD/BRD editing in DYK is higher than elsewhere, even with technical edits.

Over all, I think I showed that, apart from problematic edits, also I started multiple threads myself, abided their result, and did reply with meaningfull answers (note the “also”). This is to push back against the atmosphere created that I did not engage in discussions at all. I now know & also admit many other answers were not civil/helpful/acceptable (or not to the point, not clarifying enough). In this situation, BRD should have lead me to stop making bold edits full stop. Then, a talkpage result would lead the way (could be no consensus, that is: nothing to be done).

I see that my initial attitude was that my edits were obvious, correct and self-explaining cleanups; this blinded me for the deeper concerns that were posted (like this opening by EEng, and this one by Vanamonde93). This is not to wipe complaints out, I just want to illustrate that the trespassings were not posted as a first reply or opening post.

How to prevent any future such problems? Clearly, I should take care not get carried away by fanatic editing, introducing blindness for talks and leading to frustrated uncivil replies. More in general, I better create a distance in times of pressure, instead of diving deeper into a locked situation. The bonus is that it will lead to a more healthy situation this side of my screen.

WRT WP:DYK, with its complicated processes, bot-support, difficult talks to reach improvements, and this whole experience: I think I cannot contribute much so I will not engage in DYK any more, unless invited.

• - DePiep (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

  @DePiep: - First of all, I accept your apology. Could you kindly answer what I did to trigger this? Or was this just a random "thing"? What truly puzzles me was not the particular wording - but the cause for the initial offense (which I assume is something I did?).Icewhiz (talk) 16:36, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

IIRC, in your edit I totally missed the "duplicate" cause, so I saw only the removal which astonished me. At that time I had noted that WP:Palestine editing is low at enwiki. - DePiep (talk) 16:58, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

OK - I could understand how that could possibly lead to anger.Icewhiz (talk) 17:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• DePiep Firstly, I want to thank you for that self-reflection - it can't be an easy thing to do. I don't want to get into too much detail, so I won't reply to specifics above, but I'll just offer a few general observations.

  On the issue of being WP:BOLD and following WP:BRD, what I think I'm mostly seeing in recent interactions is a lack of understanding and poor communication. You didn't really understand why others were rejecting your template changes. But, more importantly, they didn't understand what you were trying to achieve and why. I see some attempts at discussion, but they were rather curt and I have to say I couldn't understand the details. What it needed (and I say this rarely) was more words and less action. It needed a more expansive and detailed explanation of what you were doing, and discussion until everyone understood everything. And stop making any changes until it is clear that everyone understands and there is a consensus. If you continue with further efforts to remake the same changes with modifications for what you think is the problem (but without the necessary understanding and consensus), it only causes frustration. Don't approach it from a feeling of "They need to explain what I did wrong", but more from "How can I help them understand what I'm trying to do?"

  It's not really that BOLD is not allowed, it's that the D part of BRD is by far the most important of those three letters. In areas like frequently used templates and pages with high dependencies, it is even more important that everyone involved should fully understand the implications of any changes, and when those changes are contested you should completely stop and seek consensus. In fact, in areas where there are regular editors with more specific knowledge and experience, it can indeed be wiser to seek consensus first and not be BOLD at all, as you suggest.

  Looking back over some previous interactions that others have raised, I also see times when you appear to have taken reversions or questions of what you are doing too personally and have responded poorly, similarly to what has happened here. That does seem to be a long-term issue, though again I think it's probably due to misunderstandings and/or poor communication. But when any edits you make are challenged, you really do need to engage in discussion and fully explain what you are doing - and it needs to be an explanation that's sufficient for the other editors to understand, not just one that satisfies you. And always, stop, assume good faith, and look at the whole picture again before you respond - it seems it was a failure to do this that led to the IceWhizz thing.

  Anyway, this has turned out to be a lot longer than I'd anticipated, but I hope you will find it of some use. And if you're listening to what people are saying and are taking it in and trying to do something about it (which you appear to be doing), then I don't think there's any need for any sanctions. But please do reflect on this discussion whenever you feel thwarted or frustrated in the future. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, this nicely (and more eloquently) describes my situation. - DePiep (talk) 15:17, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to hear more from other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'm happy to see DePiep apologizing for the worst of the personal attacks, and a site-ban is no longer an option I would consider. But I'm less satisfied with DePiep's replies about BRD. Especially with respect to DYK, he seems to believe that there's some sort of resistance to change anything there, and that his following BRD would have led to no changes at all. This is simply not true. DePiep made certain changes to certain templates and was reverted. His responses (when he went to a talk page at all), as far as I could make out, tended to be "I didn't break anything" or "Why not?" He didn't realize that it was incumbent upon him to answer the question "why?" first. There were similar problems with his talk page proposals; basically, they didn't always explain the problem they were trying to solve, and when folks expressed confusion and/or opposition, DePiep took things personally.

  I'm not sure where to proceed from here: on the one hand I'm worried my proposal above is now too harsh; on the other hand, I'm worried that if we do nothing, we'll be back to where we began very soon. I'd like to hear more suggestions about how to move forward. Vanamonde (talk) 04:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:. I’ll try to be more precise: I don’t want to state that “ there's some sort of resistance to change anything there” in the WikiProject DYK community. What I meant is that change discussions in the DYK backoffice are more extensive (diverse opinions) and more complicated (more issues are involved, e.g., bots) compared to other WikiProjects/templates I have worked with extensively. As a consequence, in these other WikiProjects I rarely run into a BRD cycle (I have made bold, minor edits to a 10k template, explain on the talkpage, and no R is made). This is what I call the “surprise” I met in WP:DYK.

My future behaviour then should be: be more sensitive for such requests (like BRD). If I were allowed to edit again, I expect to achieve this for example by not being bold in more unfamiliar projects. Essential to this is, me not dig in myself (instead take distance, start talk first, don’t get triggered by perceived opposition). Also I foresee that this editing process might lead to fewer of my proposals being accepted, which should not be a cause for frustration. -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with all of the above. DePuep is here in GF and seems to have plenty to offer, but we need to find some way to help him put the brakes on when need be. EEng 16:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

On rereading some of the above I feel it must be said that something that's missing, and which I think is essential for DePiep's future here, is a recognition by him that his English really does have moderate deficiencies, so that he needs to exercise extra caution in interpreting PGs and what others say to him. EEng 21:36, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

• "More in general, I better create a distance in times of pressure, instead of diving deeper into a locked situation." This is good self-advice from DePiep. I think they tend to get heated and then not assume good faith. The onus is on them to control this. The reality is that they will have little leeway in the future, and they could conceivably improve yet still be villified for one transgression. It's their responsibility to repair their reputation. I don't know if there is any suitable sanction at this point. They should also get their template editing rights restored.—Bagumba (talk) 16:43, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
• I think that Vanamonde's assessment of the situation is spot-on. I would like to find a solution that makes it possible for DePiep to stay around, including the ability to continue to work with templates, but I also see a troubling lack of self-awareness with regard to discussion with other editors, resulting in personal attacks, and I am convinced that it would be a mistake to assume that it will not happen again. So I would like to suggest an approach based on WP:ROPE. I don't see a good way to legislate a definable criterion for adequately understanding comments directed at him by other editors. But I think that we might be able to draw something of a bright line with respect to personal attacks (although I acknowledge that the community has not been able to agree on the boundaries of civility). I think that we might be able to draw up an editing restriction that specifies that any future personal attack made by DePiep during discussions of edits that he has made will result either in an escalating series of blocks, or in a site-ban. If we can flesh out that idea, perhaps we can make a formal proposal to that effect. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

And in the case if there are no restrictions, the close here should be clear that there is little to no tolerance for future incivility, allowing for swift action in the future, if needed, without spending too much time rehashing their history and re-collecting diffs.—Bagumba (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, but I also think that this discussion should not be closed until some restrictions have been settled upon. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@Bagumba:, @Tryptofish:. I understand the setups you describe here. I myself am wondering too about any type of useful restriction etc I could even ask for. Today I only can make promises. Of course, whatever the result now, we know that this ANI by itself is an ultimate warning. - DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree with both Bagumba and Tryptofish. For all the concern of how DePiep might be salvaged for the greater glory of the project, he has been an IMMENSE sink of time. Unless someone is inclined to engage in a close, long-term mentoring effort with him he should be put on notice that any bickering or disputation (including here at ANI) will be grounds for a block. Which means that, in any dispute, if his arguments and explanations of why he is right are not accepted he must not persist, and any escalation to ANI is prima facie grounds for a block. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@J. Johnson:. any bickering or disputation (including here at ANI) will be grounds for a block -- are you serious? So any editor can report me here to ignite a autoblock, no reading required? Not even allowed to dispute or disagree? (how should that work for applying BRD BTW?). Editors can step on the admin's chair just like that? -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I am serious. See comment at bottom of this section. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I think this is a good place to reference what I said above about DePiep's English, which I think is a key part of the problem. EEng 22:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

No, it's not a language problem, it's an attitudinal problem. There is a pertinent comment today way at the bottom of all this. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• DePiep wrote, I think I cannot contribute much so I will not engage in DYK any more, unless invited. I think this is a good idea, and I would like this to be a formal part of the resolution here; the "invitation" should be a consensus of the DYK community on its talk page, not just a random editor. This has been an immense time sink, as noted above, and there was damage done, as edits to several templates that are designed to be transcluded caused unexpected characters to appear where they shouldn't. It's clear that DePiep wasn't sufficiently aware of the many DYK processes to safely edit DYK templates, and I've reverted their template edits there, though I've left the edits to the template documentation pages alone since they're unlikely to have done any harm. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
• A "civility restriction" is also an option. Per WP:RESTRICTION: The user may be sanctioned (including blocks) if they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith. Perhaps a 1-yr editing restriction?—Bagumba (talk) 16:05, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  • OK then, I think that a near-consensus is starting to emerge. How about a proposal formulated like this:

1. A topic ban from DYK, that can be subject to review in the event that other editors at DYK would like to have it lifted.
2. A 1-year editing restriction, in which DePiep is subject to immediate sanction (including blocks) if he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith.

• How does that sound? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I think restoration of TE privs should be contingent on a year's success with the above. It's a right that assumes particularly restrained judgment. EEng 20:12, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, that means specifically the Template Editor advanced permissions, but not simply the ability to do edits related to templates. If that's the case, that's fine with me. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think DePiep should re-apply at PERM if they want TE rights again. Tryptofish's summary of consensus in my opinion is fair (topic ban from DYK/one year civility restriction). Personally I would prefer "indefinite" but "appealable in six months" for the civility restriction so that we don't come back to square one again after one year (somewhat reflecting on the sentiment expressed by Vanamonde and Beeblebrox). I would probably also add a reminder along the lines of "...to stop and discuss before making potentially contentious maintenance edits" or any other statement that summarise what Boing! and others have mentioned here. Alex Shih (talk) 21:24, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with all of that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, looking over it, I think perhaps that both the DYK topic ban and the civility restriction should be "indefinite but appealable in not less than six months". --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• How about: any complaint made here, that an admin judges to be well-founded, for incivility, personal attacks, edit-warring, or tendentious editing, is grounds for an immediate one-month block, and this sanction to continue until the user has edited for twelve consecutive months without any complaint. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 03:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Honestly that sounds a touch confusing, and I'd prefer the relatively straightforward modification suggested by Alex above; both restrictions indefinite, and appealable in six months. Vanamonde (talk) 04:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with Vanamonde. There will be less likelihood of something going wrong if we stay closer to the typical format for sanctions, and for the application of administrator judgment. I think we are getting to the point where I will make a formal proposal soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with all the agreeing with the agreement. Can someone recapitulate exactly what's being proposed now? And then (it seems to me for some reason in this particular case) I think it would be useful to hear from DePiep himself that he understands what the proposal, if approved by the community, would be asking him to do, and that he thinks he can abide by it. EEng 02:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

As I just noted above re J. Johnson, this is a weird prococedural route for multiple reasons. (I copy): So any editor can report me here to ignite a autoblock, no reading required? Not even allowed to dispute or disagree? (how should that work for applying BRD BTW?). -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I am serious. The persistent problem you present is, in large part, continous disputation, and recurring failure to WP:HEAR. (E.g., in part of this multi-part comment of yours you continue to dispute whether your last "voluntary topic ban" was, in effect, a topic ban. You revise history, and then accuse me of misrepresentation.) Do note that, strictly speaking, this is not an autoblock. While any editor could report you here, it would be up to an admin to decide whether there is grounds to block. The point is that we don't have to drag everyone through yet another round of DePiep showing how the rest of us are all wrong.

The key point for you is that if you can resolve disputes you have on various Talk pages, very well. But: if you can't (or won't), and persist in it enough to annoy other editors, you will be sanctioned. And no, you don't get to dispute about disputes. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, wait, someone already did that, a few subthreads down. Let's regroup there. EEng 03:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Proposal: Editing restrictions

Following the discussion at #Reply by DePiep, above, it looks like there may be an emerging consensus to handle the situation in the following way, so I am presenting a formal proposal:

1. DePiep is indefinitely topic-banned from all edits related to WP:DYK, broadly construed. This topic ban may be appealed in not less than six months from the enactment of these sanctions.
2. DePiep is placed indefinitely under an editing restriction, in which he is subject to immediate sanction (including blocks) if he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith. This restriction may be appealed in not less than six months from the enactment of these sanctions.
3. DePiep may regain permissions as a template editor only by way of a successful application at Misplaced Pages:Requests for permissions.
4. DePiep is reminded to engage in good faith discussion, and to communicate clearly, with other editors about any contentious edits he might make or consider making, and to consider other editors' concerns with respect.

--Tryptofish (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support, per my comments above; this strikes the right balance between allowing DePiep the freedom to contribute constructively, and minimizing the drain on the community's resources. Vanamonde (talk) 03:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support Beeblebrox (talk) 03:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support. As DePiep has been a perennial problem across a range of topics we should be looking to develop a generic form for future use. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 05:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

  As per EEng, below, I think we'd be fine allowing DePiep to work on DYK nominations, reviews, etc - just not the techie stuff. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. I understand this (well-written) proposal, and I think it addresses the issues well. I thank those putting a careful effort in this. (Minor question: am I to stay away from DYK-proposals?). - DePiep (talk) 13:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • @DePiep: Yes. May I ask why is this unclear? Alex Shih (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
    • All my interactions with WP:DYK were backoffice (that is, templates & processes & WT:DYK). Nominating (the word I should have written) an article for DYK is frontoffice, open for any editor. Hence my question. - DePiep (talk) 13:14, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
      • All edits related to DYK. All. Fish+Karate 13:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I think that would be a mistake. The root of DePiep's problems at DYK was that he was trying to get under the hood when he'd never driven a car (so to speak). I see no problem with him making nominations, and reviewing, and discussing (discussing content issues, that is) at Talk:DYK; but he must stay away from the technical machinery for the duration proposed. BlueMoonset can probably express the distinction crisply for us, in terms of namespaces or classes of pages or something. EEng 13:35, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd agree with EEng. I suggest that a namespace-based restriction here would be tricky, but we can add an exception to nominate articles, review nominations, and participate in discussions necessary to resolving his nominations or reviews. Vanamonde (talk) 14:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I have no problems with the wider cast "No, no noms". I asked for clarification, not for relaxation. I suggest stopping this side discussion. - DePiep (talk) 14:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support as written. If DePiep is fine with a topic ban from DYK, I see no need to carve out a path for nominating DYKs, something I don't believe they've ever done in all the years they've been editing. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • That is what I was thinking. In the previous edit, DePiep was asking about "DYK proposals" (they have since clarified), which I naturally thought was referring to the DYK proposals they made in WT:DYK when they were unaware of anything about the DYK process. With that being resolved, I still agree with BlueMoonset; I don't really see the necessity to write an exception for something that they appears to have never done in the past. If DePiep is interested in submitting DYK nominations anytime soon, I suppose it is fine to add the exception suggested by Vanamonde. Alex Shih (talk) 15:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Based on DePiep's comment just above, I think it's best to leave it as is. The less complicated, the better. Also, there is nothing wrong with asking for a partial relaxation of the restriction, for the purpose of nominations, in six months. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Maybe it's just me, but I still think we should sonehow address DePiep's English comprehension difficulties -- maybe something about asking for assistance in understanding others' posts and edit summaries where necessary. EEng 16:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I sort-of tried to cover that in item number 4. Beyond that, it gets difficult to incorporate advice into something like this, where we are trying to write something that is precise enough to be enforceable. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I think I'd just like to hear from DeP that he recognizes this is part of the problem. EEng 17:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I have similar concerns, though I'm not sure its the language competency itself that is the problem, per se. In the past, I've made numerous ventures on to other Wikipedias for languages for which I have functional but incomplete command of the grammar. Usually this is for the purpose of tracking down sources, finding content to transwiki, or just educating myself on a topic for which the English Misplaced Pages has more limited coverage. Once in a blue moon, I have made some trivial edits (maybe even some bold ones), but whenever reverted, I never insisted on my preferred approach, nor got antagonistic with the local editors, because I recognized the potential for mis-comunication and that each Misplaced Pages has its own editorial policies and community consensus (which are also subject to being misconstrued, no matter how much effort one makes to familiarize themselves, if facility in the language is incomplete).

I don't think that editors from non-English communities should be discouraged from participating (they can often bring knowledge which is less well known in the anglophone sphere), but anybody participating in a Misplaced Pages project (or in any collaborative scheme, for that matter) for a language which they are not fluent in should be using a liberal application of the precautionary principle. Instead DePiep often seems to come in guns blazing when challenged. So the issue is not so much one of underlying incomplete facility with English, but more one of arrogance and lack of self restraint and perspective in general. They don't seem to pause to consider whether they may have misunderstood the consensus on the matter and whether they are effectively communicating. Needless to say, those are potentially huge problems on a project such as this. That said, those are also the underlying principles to which DePiep has mostly owned up to above, so I would hope that their commitment to slow their approach in general will address these problems. Snow 20:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes: it's not a language problem, it's this persistent "guns blazing" disputation (and some arrogance) that's the problem. But I doubt how much he has "owned up" to being a problem, as it keeps happening, again and again. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree that behavior, not language comprehension, seems to be the biggest factor here. As to owning up to it, these sanctions should be an effective test of how committed they really are. If they can’t stay within them, blocks will be forthcoming. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

My point is that I think it's the comprehension gap that often triggers the latent behavioral tendencies, but I give up. EEng 16:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I suspect you are right about a comprehension gap triggering some of the behavior, but it's at a deeper level than mere language. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Re EEng: I don’t think my level of understanding English is very significant in this. I have participated in huge discussions, sometimes taking over 400 days, and building a positive result that affected dozens of FAs/GAs (recently and longer ago; also here and here). It would be more relevant tot look at my domain knowledge, as in: understanding the topic and the workings of a WikiProject, including editors’ approaches & attitudes. This gives a much better explanation on why I derailed in the WP:DYK. - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

So you are expressly stating that your problematical behavior is not due to any difficulties of language. Noted.

But please explain: why is it that in claiming an instance of a "positive result" you provide a diff to an edit by another editor? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support and let's hope it helps. EEng 16:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support: I would have tightened the wording on the civility provision myself; admins are already empowered to impose blocks and other sanctions for incivility, personal attacks, and refusal to AGF, so clearly what we are talking about is implementing a lower threshold for when DePiep is subject to sanction with regard to bad-faith conduct of this sort, and I'm not sure the wording makes that particularly clear (and using the default standard in this manner debases our baseline community expectations, I fear).

That little caveat aside though, I think these sanctions create sufficient restraint to address the issues raised here to an extent that will allow us to permit DePiep to continue contributing long enough to test their commitment to taking the community's concerns on board. Some of the comments that spurned this thread were truly antagonistic, but it makes a big difference that DePiep is trying and has made efforts at apology. I note also that the party most directly insulted by those comments has themselves chosen not to assume that these comments are representative of DePiep in the whole and has not urged for sanctions; of course the community can still reach their own conclusions about those comments, but that situation does make a difference to my personal analysis. All said, I think we can afford to give DePiep this chance. Snow 20:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose on the grounds that an editor who has been problematic for this long is best dealt with by the more deliberative process of ArbCom. (I am probably in the minority here, but this is my opinion.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if ArbCom would be better at this point, but the restrictions proposed here do not preclude that. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, Cut some slack for a long-standing editor. Was DePiep wrong? Yes. Did he admit to it? Yes. If Misplaced Pages were only open to perfect editors, we would have no one here. This is an editor with 13 years tenure, 120k+ edits, and many-many productive contributions. His lack block prior to this incident - was almost two years ago - in August 2016. If we keep on treating block logs as a "criminal record" - all we're encouraging is people starting over with clean (or not so clean) starts. DePiep should have communicated better at DYK and elsewhere - and he should have realized the problem earlier - but slapping him with a very punitive punishment (and to a certain extent - this is true regarding the proposal in the section below as well) - is not the way to encourage contribution. Had this been coming to here after a previous recent block/ANI/warning - the DePiep should have acknowledged and acted upon - then it would be a separate matter. Having had a clean record for past 2 years and approx. 40k edits - DePiep should be cut quite a bit of slack. People aren't always at their best - and self-recognition and attempts to correct are much more important tbans/blocks/etc.Icewhiz (talk) 06:59, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I have made 178k edits on enwiki, 40k of them after August 2016 (and so 138k before). I thank Icewhiz fort he notion of the "criminal record" approach (worse even when the record is read incorrectly -- nigh impossible to correct). - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

That all sounds very reasonable and I can see how you may have come to such a conclusion. I would, however, offer an incident from January of this year as a more recent example. DePiep decided to “claim” a module at {{Module:Z}}. Not create a template, but rather claim it as their own for future creation. As I imagine you are aware, that is complete nonsense. As I recall there was also a talk thread somewhere where they announced their “claiming” of it. I came very close to blocking them then, but at the last second they backed off and let it go. I let it go as well for basically the reasons you have outlined here. It is now clear to me that this is a pattern from this user, and the sanctions are intended to interrupt that pattern. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

For reference, see for the discussion (and the third reopening of the closed discussion thread). isaacl (talk) 08:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

So Beeblebrox told me that this is not the right way to go and deleted the page: WP:SPEEDY. But how or why does this belong in an ANI post? - DePiep (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Beeblebrox illustrates the tricky part in the proposal: he wanted to block me for … creating a page. So in the future the rules proposed here might be invoked by any admin that confuses a discussion with wrong language. That could only be cleaned up in an unblock request, but that is not a good place to discuss of course plus there is the admin habit to not wheelbarrow easily. - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Blatantly off topic, but I've been wanting to unburden myself: the single-letter template names are a rare and precious resource not to be squandered. The idea of wasting Z on something about chemical elements is appalling, and whoever appropriated {{M}} for earthquakes should be boiled in oil. EEng 13:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I hope not!! I would point out that {{M}}'s previous incarnation was for producing a single character (as several templates still do), which would be more to your point. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:01, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it's a matter of principle. Please report to the nearest boiling station for processing. The heat sources are very reliable now and there's usually comparatively little suffering.The single-character templates should be reserved, ideally, for uses in which reducing clutter in the source text is especially important; a great example is {{r}}. Anyway, we'll miss you, JJ. EEng 04:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

EEng: Language? While we are at it, could you reflect on how these edits were helpful or useful? - DePiep (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Your two links are the same diff, and its use lay in its potential to drive home to you that you have real difficulties in English comprehension and expression. If you're going to now start denying that you have such difficulties, as you seem to be doing (in you said I don’t think my level of understanding English is very significant in this) then I'm going to have to rethink my support for the very generous WP:ROPE you've been offered, and I suspect others will as well. What do you mean by Language? in your post just above? What in the world do you mean by there is the admin habit to not wheelbarrow easily in the diff I've just linked? EEng 15:35, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I have to agree with Beeblebrox, and add this incident from last year. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 12:09, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I can’t believe that all they took away from that incident is “Beeblebrox wanted to block me for creating a page” when it was in fact about “claiming ownership” of a page and making a ridiculous spectacle out of making sure everyin knew of their”claim” even through that’s not a real thing. That they can’t see that does not give me much hope for their future. And the remark about admin wheelbarrows doesn’t help either. I do own a wheelbarrow, a nice two-wheeled heavy-duty one, but I can’t recall ever using it on-wiki. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support restrictions as proposed - I'm encouraged that DePiep has acknowledged that his behavior has been a problem and hope that he will continue to contribute to the project, but I do think that these restrictions are a reasonable step at this time. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 11:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Close This Thread and Request that ArbCom Deal with a Problematic Editor

NOTHERE at VPR, cont.

Government Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Repeated ridiculous "proposals" at WP:VPR. English-challenged. Repeated missing punctuation at end of sentence. Repeated failure to sign. If this is not a sock of the Saturday-indeffed Milchsnuck I'll eat your hat, but in any case the behavior is identical to that that earned Milchsnuck an indefinite block. Milchsnuck requested adminship 2 months after Government Man asked WP:Teahouse how they could become an admin. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• SPI is thataway --> but they already know about it, privately. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:38, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Right. As I indicated, the Milchsnuck experience suggested that NOTHERE was enough in these circumstances, so I hoped to avoid the buro. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• For the record, the accounts are  Unrelated. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 11:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

should there be a Wipedian High Council: Holy Karmafist, Batman!-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 22:37, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Chancellor!?-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, please good very good idea for Misplaced Pages. Elect for me to be Mr. Misplaced Pages Chancellor. I am great job for Misplaced Pages. I will have Emergency Powers for cabal. Elect today to rule admin corpse. Natureium (talk) 01:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

This would require approval from Bishzilla.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Dlohcierekim: Perhaps if you let me be Supreme Chancellor, I could have prevented him from creating pointless articles. Natureium (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I find the idea of an admin corpse troubling in the extreme. EEng 23:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll have you know that was intentional. Natureium (talk) 23:37, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

You have a flair for the terrifying. Have you visited The Museums lately? EEng 04:00, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Boundarylayer and abortion

Boundarylayer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is topic banned from articles related to abortion. I have just issued a one-time warning. Numerous recent edits violate the topic ban: , , , are unambiguously related to abortion. This restriction should be understood as being broadly construed, but in this case even a narrow construction shows this to be in the scope of your topic ban.

Any further edits in this area should result in an immediate block. Guy (Help!) 09:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Link to pertinent discussion-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I wish to now have this ban overturned, as usual, it was orchestrated by a member of this encyclopedia apparently well known to the community for following a particular copy-and-paste, "get other editors banned" strategy, in the exact farcical manner that I experienced. Indeed with respect to Jytdog, who I had initially considered was a neutral party. Instead I by chance stumbled across a revealing comment left by User:Andy Dingley on the Sustainable energy talk page. "| Then feel free to simply go away(Jytdog). It is not all about you. Yet again you are taking another invented content dispute with an editor and turning it into another round of Jytdog's superhero wikicrimefighting show. You are not Batman. It is not all about you. Before long you will (inevitably so - we've all seen your behaviour before) move this to ANI with a variety of wild accusations, then probably create Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Roberttherambler, because harassment by fatuous SPI is another of your favourites."

If this ban instigated by jytdog, is not seen for what it is and overturned, I do not see a future with the project. As to remind you, there was never a case of 3R. Or edit warring. We always took it to the talk page, indeed that was the charge in essence, a distaste for - my writing replies on talk pages and then waiting for other editors to get back to me-. That however is not a bannable justification. Moreover some independent editors who looked at my edits both then in the initial ANI and now, also disagree with this unjustified ban. Despite, I might add, not being at home that weekend to have the opportunity to reply on the initial ANI. Which as you can imagine, was less than a "rewarding" surprise on returning home.

Indeed, with respect to why I got banned. I believe Guy you even thanked me for talking to Mark Z. Jacobson at my usual length, on his talk page, when he was engaging in a lawsuit and a BLP. So even on matters such as these, I do not change when I searched to try to find a WP:NEUTRAL wording acceptable to both a BLP and to readers. However I hope this is not a case of it serving your/the projects interests in that case yet in other cases "BAN"? I've picked up the unfortunately clear impression, that I am thanked for hashing things out on talk pages, but when not serving particular admin politics, I get banned from the topic. It is from this and other observations. That I have developed a deep sentiment of hypocrisy here. Indeed no one ever notified me as to the apparently well known MO of User:Jytdog in how they have, for years, gone around and created an apparent television series of a "variety of wild accusations", that they then "move this to ANI". So why exactly is this prolonged "round of Jytdog's superhero wikicrimefighting show" continuing?

Boundarylayer (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

The support for your topic ban was near-unanimous, and those who supported it are hardly just the usual suspects. If you want your ban overturned, the way to do so is to appeal it (probably at WP:AN) on the basis that it is no longer necessary to prevent disruption, not by simply violating it repeatedly. Your having violated it repeatedly essentially reduces your chances of having the ban overturned now to zero, I would guess. GoldenRing (talk) 16:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I am sorry you see yourself as a victim and also that you see me as some kind of kind of crazy person. I empathize with you being very passionate on this issue; I have some things I can get very fierce about, too. But you need to be aware that this is part of your character and self-manage it. You failed to do that on the abortion stuff and became disruptive, so the community took action to protect itself -- and you. I hope you gain some self-insight and are able to be resilient and find a way to stay. You do make many good edits in fields where you are not overly passionate. Jytdog (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Just wanted to add, that since we are now in the very intense run-up to the Ireland abortion referendum your internal pressure gauge has probably exploded. That must be very difficult. Jytdog (talk) 17:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@JzG: I cannot find where the original topic ban was recorded. Was it logged? --NeilN 17:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Boundarylayer: Please stop violating the topic ban. If you can edit non disruptively for 6 months, starting now, you might be able to appeal the ban then. One does not violate a topic ban and then seek to have it overturned when one is caught violating said topic ban.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I think it's time to propose an indefinite block of Boundarylayer. The link between their edits on the 36th Amendment referendum and the problematic edits on Death of Savita Halappanavar and related topics are so crystal-clear that they cannot be any good-faith misunderstanding. Boundarylayer's statement here makes it equally clear that they have no intention to abide by their restrictions or to respect other editors in any process. They clearly cannot edit collaboratively or constructively. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

They've been warned, they haven't edited on the topic since the warning. An indef at this point would be premature. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I think that an indef block is more than we need. Boundarylayer will kindly stop violating their TBAN before a block becomes needed.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

"Violated it Repeatedly"? Can you clarify where? Unless you're talking about something else. I made one stream of edits on the "8th amendment" article and I left it at that. Edits that I didn't consider to be really even under the remit of "Broadly construed?" Considering this farcical "ban" was over the articles PPROM and Savita Halappanavar, not anything political on Irish voting or a referendum but on medical evidence. No one got into a discussion once I made these recent amendment edits, I was busy writing, editing and getting the article Terufumi Sasaki through the creation process, in the last few days, if you actually care to look at what I was primarily doing instead of creating more of your quaint little fantasies about "pressure gauges"...Jytdog? In fact my last edit there, I left a talk page comment. Any polls conducted on just female voters? to build the article to reflect actual factual information.

Indeed in my last month of editing. If you really want to go "broadly construed". I've penned the entirety of the -Atomic bombings#Birth defect investigations a section, as broadly construed as "abortion" should be, is this medical information also a "violating" of my ban and should it be removed too? Moreover, I also added a small study in Chernobyl abortion requests recently. Though I take it, you all like that information. However the way you have all responded, it is clear that it is only when I add any factual information into what the political editor-User:Bastun, what they prefer to class as "broadly construed"? Only when I take it is anything got to do with jeopardizing their George Soros hero? That's the only difference in theme, they pretty well admit as much here this change all of a sudden, to enforce a ban down to doing "edits on the main article on the imminent Irish election". The main article? that's not abortion the actual "main article"? For someone with a topic ban on "abortion" then? The "main article is the election" that is how they view my ban. As a political tool. So only now then I find myself here at an Admin noticeboard over this farcical ban. Why now exactly? I think it pretty obvious what my "ban" genuinely is truly about and specificallly who and what it was always intended for. Which is anything Bastun doesn't like. A pretty cozy affair they have.

So exactly where do you want "broadly construed" to end? So I can know not to "violate" this farcical ban again? Can I have clarity? Indeed This User:Bastun seems to have a bit of a history of also hounding others editor, as like jytdog, claiming others are socks. It seems all preceived "opponents" are targeted and the truth a casualty. Two editors, 2 independent editors now, don't think this other user is a sock. Yet, look here they're indefinitely blocked, all thanks to user:Bastun. leftwinguy92.

Since my "ban" began. You will find that I have not edited the PROM article, after adding the 2017 Cochrane medical review(which is still there by the way, this is the farcical part that shows through. My last edit on the very article that would then follow with an onslaught of wild accusations and "ban", my last edit which suddenly I was banned without any opportunity to say a word before it was enshrined in wikilaw. The last edit I made for allegedly being "distruptive", not a single editor has removed nor challenged my last edit on the "direct broadly construed" topic, that I was allegedly distrupting? That is why this ban is a transparent farce.

Is anyone else being to see how transparent this is? Or is it really just me?

Boundarylayer (talk) 20:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

It appears to be pretty much you. I haven't seen so much blaming of others in quite a while.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

So you didn't also make a weird post on my talk page recently that completely misrepresented Savita's husband, Praveen? And you didn't make a series of edits regarding funding of Amnesty Ireland (who are campaigning for a Yes vote)? Bastun 21:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Also - yes, leftwinguy93 was found to be a sock by a checkuser... Bastun 21:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

That user is not a sock. You falsely accused them of being a sock of one account. The checkuser didn't find any evidence of that but presumedly found the same IP of some entirely different user. They're now blocked as per your direction however.

On Oct 20 you wrote "You might let me know when and where this RfC is taking place, so I and all the other people operating accounts for Mr Soros can turn up."

I never even knew who "Soros" was in Oct 2017, you were accusing me of being American and a whole load of wild things, I even asked in Oct 20, as you can read "who is Soros, and how are they relevant"? I think I know why now. The story broke in Dec 2017 that some fellow named George Soros was actually attempting to influence and pay for campaigns. After that news broke, you've both been censoring , who you actually admited, is your paymasters name, out of the Amnesty International Ireland page. In just the 1st page of edit history, three other editors have added his name and you 2 have consistently removed it. You've both been at the downplay game, the political spin-doctor game. The paid editing game. Your actions, "jokes" and even this ban...I know who you are and what this is about now.

Boundarylayer (talk) 11:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Editors may also be interested in this Conflict of Interest thread... Bastun 11:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• I just want to note that a minute before BoundaryLayer wrote their second long attack on this page (diff) above at 20:04, they wrote this at Guy's talk page. BoundaryLayer is showing no intention of respecting their TBAN. I think something like a month-long block might be useful here, to prevent further disruption and try to help them understanding that the TBAN is not optional? Jytdog (talk) 17:41, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Interaction ban

Per the above and , I propose a one-way IBAN betwefen Boundarylayer and Bastun: Boundarylayer to be prohibited from interacting with or commenting on Bastun other than in the context of formal dispute resolution processes, including arbitration but not including noticeboatd threads. Guy (Help!) 12:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Guy (Help!) 12:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. I've blocked Boundarylayer for 48 hours for filing the SPI, which I've also deleted. @JzG: For the sake of procedural niceties, please clarify that you are proposing that a one-way I-ban be imposed against Boundarylayer for interactions with Bastun. I've also changed this to the usual non-numbered style rather than RfA style. Otherwise, it's difficult to leave standalone comments like this one. Hope you don't mind.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, I agree on all counts. Guy (Help!) 15:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support although I think an indef is coming here rather quickly. all aboard the noticeboat! Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support. I hate to see things go down this path, but it appears necessary. —Compassionate727  15:25, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Francis Schonken and the WHS infobox

Hi all. Please could someone take a look at the recent edits of Francis Schonken (talk · contribs). He is nominally implementing the outcome of Template_talk:Infobox_World_Heritage_Site/Archive_1#RfC:_revert_back_to_non-Wikidata_version? - however he is doing so in a way that repeatedly pings me to let me know my edits have been undone (more than 20 in the last 2 days, probably >100 over the last few months), and recently his edit summaries are using all sorts of different (and often invalid) reasons rather than just pointing to the RfC outcome. Attempts to discuss this with him aren't going anywhere, so I'd appreciate third-party input into this. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 13:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

The gall. I have spend many hours reverting the mess Mike Peel left behind after his ill thought out mass implementation of the Wikidata version of the WHS infobox, and Francis Schonken has continued this when I mostly gave up. Mike Peel on the other hand has done nothing to correct his errors and help in the cleanup, all he did was resurrect his Template:Infobox World Heritage Site/Wikidata version. When I corrected the use of the template in articles, I went through the history to find the last version before Mike Peel had changed the infobox, and took the old code. Francis Schonken does this by using a revert, which pings Mike Peel. Tough luck, as it is actually a revert + update that is being done. "He is nominally implementing the outcome" = he is actually implementing it, and undoing your damage. Your "attempts to discuss this" seem to consist of one post to his talk page, where he replied that he had replied at the template talk page. Sure enough, Francis Schonken has replied there, and you have not answered this or made another comment on their user talk page.

A single comment on someone's talk page, then ignoring the reply that you get for nearly a month, and then coming here to complain about legitimate actions from another user undoing your mess, is basically asking "please, hand me a boomerang-shaped trout". Fram (talk) 13:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Note that Fram told me "I think we can handle this without more help from you", so I walked away from that template talk page, and would continue staying away aside from the repeated pings. There has also been related discussion between myself and Francis at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Suggestion:_WP:CHALLENGE in the last few days. Mike Peel (talk) 14:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

But you still felt the need to repeatedly revert Francis Schonken to reinsert your own RfC-deprecated version of the infobox. Fram (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Note how none of those mentioned the RfC - see my initial comment here. Mike Peel (talk) 14:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

And if they don't mention the RfC, you are free to reinsert your own deprecated template you have walked away from? That same deprecated template where you have, as far as I know, not cleaned up one instance of it being used? Fram (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

You knew exactly why Francis made the change, and you knew the template was deprecated before you re-inserted it. Quit the disingenuity and respect community consensus -- or look to the community to form a new one. Don't edit disruptively. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Returning to the original point of the thread, are the notifications really necessary when making the edits? Richard Nevell (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Automatic. FS is reverting an edit and adjusting the content then saving. This will ping the editor who made the edit originally. You could hit edit and change it manually but if its only a minor change its easier and more efficient the way FS is doing it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Such notifications are opt-in, so not necessarily automatic. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to grab this opportunity to encourage everyone to go to Preferences > Notifications and uncheck Edit revert. Then you don't get those jarring red flags sending your blood pressure up. It's made my editing life far happier. Of course you still see any changes on your watchlist, but somehow that's a calmer way to experience them. EEng 19:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I second EEng's insight. I unchecked it a while ago and haven't been tempted to revert back. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Have my babies EEng. (this should teach me to actually look at preferences more often). Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

OK, I'm having Arbcom cut off your Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster. I have to credit Tryptofish with calling attention to this, and it's a shame there hasn't been more uptake project wide. Seriously, Tfish, what do you think about a Signpost article about it? I really think that every editor who unchecks the revert-notification "feature" represents a step along the path to universal Wiki-peace. Another thing we could try -- and I really think this might be successful -- would be to lobby to make "unchecked" the default for new users. EEng 22:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks (but you don't have to have my babies). Everyone should read WP:RNO, which is what EEng is talking about. I honestly don't care much about the Signpost. I think the default setting has kept changing from on to off and back over time. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, that's good to know, and I've disabled that now. I thought that the notifications could also be avoided by removing the username from the edit summary. The use of random reasons in the edit summary seem to be decreasing, with more along the lines of "per <rfc link>", which is better - @Francis Schonken: please just stick with that edit summary from now on. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Happy to know there's a technical solution for the pinging. The edit summaries are not exclusively written for you, of course. Sometimes they are misunderstood. I try to make them correct, understandable, succinct, etc. That's content (not behaviour), so less suitable to be discussed on this noticeboard. As indicated above, a discussion about precisely this content was open before this was brought here (i.e., WP:RSN#Suggestion: WP:CHALLENGE). For clarity, that discussion is still active. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Mike Peel: during my work with the WHS infobox I encountered this edit to the pyramid infobox. Was that discussed before implementing? I mean, there's no obligation to discuss, but was it? --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: Please just keep the summaries for the edits that are implementing the RfC focused on the RfC link. The discussion at WP:CHALLENGE is very controversial (and, from my perspective, very wrong), so shouldn't be used in those cases. The pyramid infobox edit was per Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wikidata Phase 2, let's see how Misplaced Pages:Wikidata/2018 Infobox RfC is closed before taking that further. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:13, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The "modification should be done carefully and deliberately" (from Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wikidata Phase 2) – I didn't see that happening at the pyramid infobox. I'd expect at least a notification at the infoboxes talk page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Further, the Phase 2 RfC does not justify the removal of material from individual Misplaced Pages articles: "It is appropriate to modify existing infoboxes to permit Wikidata inclusion when there is no existing English Misplaced Pages data for a specific field in the infobox" (my emphasis) – removing "existing English Misplaced Pages data" seems like WP:POINT (i.e. disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point) to me — at least WP:BOLD, in which case the bold removal of material can be undone by WP:BRD. Undoing such removals of material, where the removals seem not to be covered by any RfC, need not be justified by referring to an RfC. See also what other editors said above: whether or not the edit summary refers to an RfC, restoring such deleted material should not be undone. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

You seem to be going back over ground that led to Misplaced Pages:Wikidata/2018_Infobox_RfC - let's see how that's closed. Mike Peel (talk) 12:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Wikidata/2018 Infobox RfC is not about behaviour. So again, why did you bring this to WP:ANI, which is about behaviour? --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Assistance at Mediawiki and perhaps Commons

A troll is harassing me at Misplaced Pages, Commons, Mediawiki, etc. The original IP, 207.10.104.58, was globally locked by a steward, but now there's a new one, 65.155.17.196 — and there will no doubt always be new ones. I tried to get my mediawiki userpages, https://www.mediawiki.org/User_talk:Bishonen etc, protected, but obviously posted to the wrong help page at Mediawiki, and nothing happened. I don't know my way around there. Could somebody who does please try to get my pages semiprotected there? Preferably indefinitely. Also my Commons pages, unless they already are — I can't tell, but the attacks seem to have stopped there. Thank you. Bishonen | talk 18:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC).

User:Tegel seems to have globally blocked it. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, but that's not the point, Tony. After the first IP had been globally locked, another one turned up very soon. The world is full of open proxies, so I would appreciate having my pages protected. If it can be arranged. Anybody know a mediawiki admin, or is their system totally different? As I said, I tried to find an admin and failed. Bishonen | talk 19:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC).

I projected your user and user talk page for a month. In the future you can use mw:Project:Current issues or the #mediawiki channel on freenode to get the attention of an admin. Legoktm (talk) 19:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Legoktm. I'll try to remember. Having userpages at Mediawiki is purely a bother, I've no use for them, and they're nothing but vandal magnets. There is not the slightest risk that an IP or throwaway account would have a legitimate errand there, so would you consider protecting them indefinitely, please? Or a year, at least. Bishonen | talk 19:26, 24 May 2018 (UTC).

Done, though I could just delete your MediawikiWiki user page and let your Meta one would show instead, I could then salt the MW one, if you like, Bishonen? Courcelles (talk) 23:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Also semi'ed your Commons user page. Courcelles (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Courcelles: Thanks, that's great. Deleting and salting the mediawiki userpage would be even better, but the meta page that shows through will also need protection, won't it, and the meta talk? (Compare their histories; they've seen some action.) Also, my Commons talk? I wish I hadn't created so many pages; though I guess if I hadn't, there's still nothing to stop the vandals from creating them. Bishonen | talk 02:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC).

@Courcelles:? Or would anybody else with those permissions like to take care of the missing bits, so I don't have to come back and bug everybody again next week? Bishonen | talk 20:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC).

I think all done. Mediawikiwiki deleted and salted, Meta user page semi-protected. Courcelles (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

A weight off my mind, Courcelles. Thank you. Bishonen | talk 20:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC).

I semi-protected your Commons talk page for a month and added it to my watchlist, if harassment resumes I will be able to reprotect it.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Ymblanter. How many of these goddamn projects are there? My wiktionary page was just created and defaced. Anybody got admin rights there? Please protect user and user talk indefinitely and globally lock the new IP. If somebody with lots of permissions would like to e-mail me, I'll mention a few more problems. Bishonen | talk 07:20, 26 May 2018 (UTC).

I myself am being harassed in a similar way, on some sister projects, for over a month now by an apparently mentally ill person. I could not find a way to deal with this other than have all these accounts globally locked, one by one. May be you can go to stewards, they are the ones with a lots of permissions, and they might be able to globally range-block.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The internet is full of open proxies, on all different ranges, so the global locks don't do much good. On second thoughts, don't bother to e-mail me like I requested above; I think I'll just stop caring what my userpages say on other projects. It's little to do with me, after all. Bishonen | talk 08:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC).

User:Livioandronico2013 evading indef block on Commons by continuing attacks on Misplaced Pages

• Livioandronico2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Commons contributions

Livioandronico is indef blocked on Commons (block discussion December 2017). This was due to long running incivility, personal attacks and dishonesty towards other users at the Featured Picture forum. His final edits there include this personal attack "do you have to lie to live".

• In December 2017 he asks another Commons user to nominate photos at FPC on his behalf.
• A few minutes later he posts to my user page "I repeat.....do you have to lie to live? I don't use NR. I hope you are a liar as I think ... otherwise there is something more serious!".
• In March 2018 I removed that post from my talk page.
• On 22 May 2018 Livioandronico restores his personal attack post to my talk page archive.
• On 23 May 2018 I reverted it.
• On 24 May 2018 Livioandronico restores his personal attack post to my talk page archive.

I have not, as far as I can recall, had any interaction with Livioandronico on Misplaced Pages. There is no reason for him to use Misplaced Pages to continue making personal attacks that got him the indef block on Commons. I personally avoid making multiple reverts, so would appreciate if an Admin remove his attack post from User talk:Colin/Archive 11 and protect the archive. Suggest user is also blocked on Misplaced Pages too. -- Colin° 21:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The edit was already reverted when i got there. I went ahead and fully protected it. Feel free to revert if that was wrong. I guess the next thing is to admonish Livioandronico2013. Perhaps an apology will obviate the need for formal sanctions.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Leaving a ping for @De728631 since they are the blocking admin on Commons. Suggest a one-week block here of Livioandronico2013 for personal attacks, based on the enwiki diffs above. Agree that IF he apologizes the block would not be necessary. The header of this report says the user is 'evading indef block on Commons' though that's not technically true since this is a different project. Still, if we are expecting different behavior here that would be optimistic. (Check out his comments in the Commons block discussion). EdJohnston (talk) 02:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

EdJohnston, I don't know what the technical term for it is, but the personal attacks left on my talk page are nothing to do with Misplaced Pages, but spill-over from his issues on Commons. They are using Misplaced Pages to attack me since they can't any longer do so on Commons. Evading their Commons block by attacking a Commons user on Misplaced Pages instead. Livioandronico doesn't edit very often, and has no current FP nominations here, so a week block is unlikely to be to of any effect. Wrt Misplaced Pages behaviour, I see that in January he edit warred over the lead photo he had uploaded and inserted to Empress Elisabeth of Austria. I haven't looked any further back than that. -- Colin° 07:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Colin,Colin this isn't commons....good night...--LivioAndronico 21:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Since Livioandronico2013 is continuing to edit here (per his comment above) while making no apology and no offer to behave better, I'm going ahead with a one-week block for the personal attacks here on the English Misplaced Pages. EdJohnston (talk) 01:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

That should give him time to find something else to do. I'd hoped it would not come to that. If the behavior recurs, and his remark here does not leave me hopeful, then we can certainly block longer next time.Dlohcierekim's sock (talk) 06:20, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

A perfect case of WP:NOTHERE

History21st (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been nothing but trouble from the moment they started editing (their short editing history speaks for itself). I don't know whether they have difficulty understanding how Misplaced Pages works or whether they are doing it on purpose, but what is certain is that they're making near impossible to improve articles by constantly restoring original research and deleting reliably sourced content. The various warnings on their page were simply ignored. M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• I don't see that they're NOTHERE; what I do see is you leaving nothing but templated warnings and uninsightful boilerplate edit summaries. Drmies (talk) 00:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Drmies I left a perfectly justifiable warning on the 17th of this month, and another one today. What else am I supposed to do, let them remove sourced content? There is nothing wrong with the edit summaries, after all, I'm removing anything that shouldn't be there (either because it failed verification or it's OR). M.Bitton (talk) 00:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
    • You could talk to them. With sentences. If you want us to hand out a NOTHERE block you'll have to do better then go "just look at their history", and if you want us to take you seriously it would help if you'd done more than leave nothing but templated warnings and uninsightful boilerplate edit summaries--at the risk of repeating myself, of course. No need to ping me anymore. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'm always concerned by editors who edit-war about the ethnicity or nationality of historical figures, as History21st is doing at Abd al-Mu'min. I don't see this as WP:NOTHERE; rather a situation where a new editor needs to be advised to use the talk page to resolve content issues such as whether this person's birthplace was ruled by the Almoravids or the Hammadids at the time. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  • They were trying, on Talk:Abd al-Mu'min--but no one responded. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) Actually, History21st did post on that talk page multiple times. M.Bitton (talk · contribs) (and also Aṭlas (talk · contribs)) are the ones who need to be advised to reply there. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
      • @Power~enwiki: Out of interest, how would you deal with this? Would you restore it to what the RS say, "discuss it" or simply leave it? If a statement fails verification and you remove it (as you should), what kind of edit summary would you leave? M.Bitton (talk) 00:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

"I'm not sure I agree with this edit. I'm going to revert but if you have a source for it please come to the talk page and we can hash it out." See? It's not hard to be civil. You should try it some time. --Tarage (talk) 01:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

See? It's not hard to be civil. You should try it some time. Was that really necessary? M.Bitton (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Since Andalusia is in Spain, they're not contradictory, and the Samso (2007) reference describes him as "Andalusian". I'd be more concerned about "Residence: Caliphate" in the infobox, which makes little sense. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: I would agree with you if the source was at the end of the sentence, but that's not the case. Notice that only the expression is attributed to the source and changing the expression would misrepresent the source, or at least, that's the way I see it. M.Bitton (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Frankly you're in the wrong here. You make an edit, it gets reverted, and then instead of going to the talk page you edit war. I'm not impressed. --Tarage (talk) 01:28, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah... looking at yours and their edits, at least they went to the talk page to TRY to reason with you. Meanwhile you decided the best way to solve this issue was to leave them warnings and then come here? Boomerang. If anyone isn't here to create an encyclopedia it's you. Close this down before you end up blocked and use the talk page instead of throwing a temper tantrum. --Tarage (talk) 01:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Here are the facts:

• In the Abd al-Mu'min article, I made a single edit since History21st appeared on the scene and the whole birth place disagreement started (I restored the reliably sourced content that was deleted without a valid reason). Having looked at the edit history, all I saw is an editor desperately trying by any means necessary, including source misrepresentation, to introduce original research into the article. I left a gentle warning on their talk page (which they ignored).
• When I started cleaning the Expedition to Mostaganem (1558) article, I didn't think that anyone would be reverting some of my edits within seconds of me making them. When I realised what was happening, I issued a warning (since their reverts didn't even have edit summaries) and restored the page to an earlier version (deleting some of my edits in the process to start afresh). They reverted again (obliterating the source that I have added), and this time, asking me to do the impossible, to bring sources before removing WP:OR and content that failed verification. M.Bitton (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm not an Admin or anything, but Maby you could actually READ what People are Trying to tell you? at least find out what a "Boomerang" is. Jena (talk) 13:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: I think what I'm reading here is that people are trying to say the following. 1) Your behavior is closer to nothere than the other editor. 2) You need to drop it. 3) You need to discuss the merits and finer qualities of your position on the article talk page, and by discussion, we mean considering the other's point of view rather than simply insisting on your own.Dlohcierekim's sock (talk) 05:57, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Dan56

Sorry this is a few days late, but Dan56 has been engaged in disruptive editing for quite a while now. First he opens a petty RfC over something we'd been arguing about and does so without even notifying me. Then we get into a needlessly lengthy discussion that went pretty much nowhere about a minor edit I made (; I mistakenly thought it would go somewhere), and he does things like this:

• Accuses me of "misrepresenting publications/sources" ()
• Says things like this () when I say we should wait for more input because it isn't going anywhere
• Accuses me of not giving guidelines () when I clearly did ()
• Accuses me of having an agenda ()
• Claims not to understand what I'm saying when I've made my position perfectly clear and additionally implies that the whole thing makes no sense (, ; my position: , ; note the "0_0" at the end of his first comment)
• Opens a petty RfC about it and words it in an entirely non-neutral way
• Refuses to give up on it four months later and then claims there have been no attempts made to address his concerns ()
• Makes questionable assertions at best ()
• Says things that simply aren't true (; see , , and )
• Plays dumb (, )
• Accuses me of saying things that aren't entirely relevant ()

Especially in light of his past behavior (see this and this), if this isn't an attempt to exhaust my patience and discourage other editors from engaging in discussion with him, I don't know what is. Someone please do something about it. Esszet (talk) 13:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Just on the first point, while the RFC was exceedingly small, he may have thought it was necessary to gain consensus as you had been repeatedly edit warring to keep an instance of bad grammar in the article. Fish+Karate 14:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I realize we were edit warring (to an extent), but what? Bad grammar? I don't know what you're talking about, and you don't need RfC's for bad grammar anyway. Esszet (talk) 14:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, that? See here and here for examples of the sentence without the verb (as well as lots of others). Esszet (talk) 14:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

In addition to the fact that the |all_writing= parameter in {{album ratings}} yields "All tracks written by…" Esszet (talk) 14:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

…Did I do something wrong here? Esszet (talk) 21:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorry if I was being impatient, I'm used to getting very quick responses here. Esszet (talk) 21:36, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Sebastian James (talk)

Diff 1

Diff 2

Diff 3

Ever since "diff 1" the editor has shown zero WP:GOODFAITH by repeatedly calling me a "troll" (despite my history with the article) and, after being warned of disruptive editing based on WP:CITEVAR upon everything else and deleting it out of spite, the editor is one edit away from breaking the three-revert rule. Cognissonance (talk) 16:28, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I should add, the editor removing a low-score review for a high-score review stands out as WP:POV. Cognissonance (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Sebastian James's talk is a history of warnings over edit warring and inappropriate edit summaries. Plus a few about personal attacks. There doesn't ever seem to have been any response to them other than deletion with dismissive and sarcastic edit summaries. It also looks like the user's predilection for removing comments he doesn't like includes other editors' posts on article talkpages. Grandpallama (talk) 16:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The user deleted the sourced info for reception, also changed the references, such as Metacritic like this.

Also, Grandpallama, I don't change it because I dislike it, I change it because I think it's wrong. They never explain the problem in comments. I have seen two editors swearing at each other with their edit summaries, nothing happened to them... Sebastian James (talk) 17:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleting someone's article talkpage comments because you think they're "wrong" is completely, unambiguously not acceptable. Actually, pinging IUpdateRottenTomatoes since that's the user whose comments you arbitrarily deleted. As far as what you've seen "other editors" do, it's you whose conduct is being considered here. Grandpallama (talk) 18:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, Grandpallama, I use Puffin Browser most of the time when I contribute. Its performance is pretty bad so I try to keep my edits and edit summaries short. But, you still don't understand my comments. I didn't mean article takpage comments when I wrote "I change it because I think it's wrong". That's completely different from this topic. Also, I wrote about "other editors" because they did verbally attack each other and violated policies more than one. Still, I am the one who is charged because of "harassment" I made and an editor who clearly deleted sourced info and changed a reference badly, while accusing me with WP:CITEVAR. Sebastian James (talk)

Not a single thing you've written even acknowledges unacceptable behavior, and it certainly doesn't excuse it. You've been brought to the noticeboard over your behavior on WP, and you'd better start explaining your actions, including the ones I'm raising, or I see a block headed your way. Grandpallama (talk) 21:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I started to explain them already, but you are the one who doesn't have nonsubjective point of view, and doesn't have full knowledge of this issue. Will you please stop beating about the bush and give place to someone experienced who can solve this problem? Don't be sad if I won't get blocked, be happy with your friend Cognissonance. Bye. Sebastian James (talk)

• Cognissonance, I have not examined this dispute, but I'll make one point that editors are allowed to remove warnings from their talk pages (we take that as a sign that they have read them). So it was wrong to do this. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Diff 4 Cognissonance (talk) 03:15, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Possible WP:SOCK Cognissonance (talk) 03:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

More possible sockpuppetry. Cognissonance (talk) 03:44, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Third count of possible sockpuppetry. Cognissonance (talk) 04:44, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

You are funny, Cognissonance. You haven't found a reasonable accusation, now you're accusing me with other IP users' edits. An administrator can check my IP. I haven't tried to detele VG review since you explained. If I really wanted to delete it, I would definitely do it with this account. Sebastian James (talk)

Off-wiki personal attacks in articles

• Ideological bias on Misplaced Pages (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Netoholic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Netoholic has spun out a section from criticism of Misplaced Pages. He is rather determined to include an off-wiki personal attack by Brian Martin (social scientist), a promoter of conspiracy theories, the debunked OPV-AIDS hypothesis and anti-vaccinationism, who was upset that I edited our article on him to be less flattering than Gongwool (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) left it (Gongwool turned out to be a sockpuppet, imagine that). He asserts that "Most of the items you removed were copied there from within other articles already about Misplaced Pages", but the section on Martin does not appear to be anywhere else, but instead to have been written by Netoholic himself.

He's also pushing criticisms by the Discovery Institute and Conservapedia. There is a clear lack of consensus on Talk for including this stuff, but he seems to think it should go back in "per WP:NPOV" (). I disagree.

I also commented on an AE case he raised against SPECIFICO, noting that the case, combined with an earlier one, might amount to vexatious abuse of process - as a result of that thread he was restricted from abuse of noticeboards. So he's edit warring to include an off-wiki attack on an admin with whom he's in dispute. That does not seem like an especially good idea. Guy (Help!) 20:55, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Just to clarify a point from JzG, Gongwool had nothing to do with Martin. That account and their socks added multiple BLP violations to an already negative article, and did not make it "less flattering", but more of a BLP nightmare. - Bilby (talk) 21:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

OK, fair, I was misremembering. I had also forgotten how determinedly you downplayed the antivax bullshit in that article. Which pissed me off quite a bit, but I think that in the end it was mainly better. Guy (Help!) 21:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I made the mistake of trying to make it compliant with BLP. - Bilby (talk) 21:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Reasonable people may differ on how specific content may be shaded in an article. I hope we are both reasonable people. I don't doubt your commitment to BLP, but am still disquieted by the extent to which you have defended antivaxers and charlatans. However, we can discuss that article by article, as we always have - in the end if we both edit an article it is generally better than if only one of is did, or neither, in my view. Guy (Help!) 22:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I wrote up about this study and several other scholarly studies when creating the new article "Ideological bias on Misplaced Pages". Here is the source of the study written by Brian Martin (paywalled, but reproduced here) and User:JzG is specifically identified and criticized by the author. This represents a very clear WP:Conflict of interest and JzG should distance himself from this topic. I believe his complaints about other content are potentially valid, but I think his COI is interfering with his overall objectivity with regards to other content of the article (like Conservapedia, a section which I did not wrote, but incorporated from other articles on Misplaced Pages). I tried to address this with JzG personally, but they've now recently gone around and removed this study from several pages it was mentioned on. They've also has opened Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Ideological bias on Misplaced Pages and now this. I bear no ill-will to JzG. This has nothing to do with any prior interactions I've had with JzG. My edit of this study (22 May) predates his comment on the AE thread (23 May) and so has nothing to do with that. In fact I respect his fair take on that AE and would never take any opportunity to attack him, and that respect led me to go to him personally, but I was told obliquely to "fuck off". -- Netoholic @ 21:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

This is not a "scholarly study". Some of the ones you included are - they examine numerous articles and analyse trends, using objective measures over time. This is an article subject saying "look how much more flattering this other article on my rival is" and taking a pop at a named editor (yes, me) for reflecting the mainstream view of his promotion of the debunked OPV-AIDS hypothesis and other antivax conspiracist claptrap. And even where the work you cite is scholarly, you have cherry-picked from primary sources. In fact, your article on ideological bias in Misplaced Pages is starting to look an awful lot like your personal essay based on your recent repeated failure to gain traction in a number of articles where you assert that Misplaced Pages has an ideological bias. Guy (Help!) 21:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

What a troublesome situation it would be if all one had to do to disqualify a Wikipedian from a topic was to criticize their edits on that topic in an off-wiki paper. If JzG were to begin approaching these subjects in a different way (e.g. if he had been writing about Martin positively, but then took a negative view after publication of that article, or if he had not previously edited Martin's biography and received criticism from Martin on a different subject, then began criticizing Martin directly -- neither of which is the case, as far as I can tell), there would be a problem. Continuing to take the stance that got him mentioned by Martin to begin with is just being consistent and in no way constitutes a COI problem. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Another issue that should be raised here, separately from anything about the Martin issue (with which I am not familiar), is that it is emerging at Talk:Political views of American academics#Paul Hollander and Talk:Political views of American academics#Representative presentation of sources that Netoholic appears to have been misrepresenting sources (cherrypicking) in order to push a conservative POV. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

User:JzG should be topic-banned from any mention of Brian Martin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:JzG is named in Brian Martin's paper "Persistent bias on Misplaced Pages: methods and responses," published in the peer-reviewed academic journal Social Science Computer Review (2017). Martin wrote that "admin JzG (aka Guy) rewrote most of my Misplaced Pages entry, turning it into an attack on my reputation. In the following months, this negative framing was maintained, primarily by JzG and editor Gongwool." Martin wrote that User:JzG deleted positive material, removing text about his achievements and deleting the list of his works, and added negative material. Notwithstanding his obvious COI, User:JzG on 25 May 2018 began scrubbing mention of Martin's analysis of the edits made to his BLP—and thus mention of User:JzG. The first such removal came at 15:16. Despite a good faith effort by User:Netoholic to reason with User:JzG, the latter continued scrubbing such entries, resuming at 18:06, again at 19:54, another at 21:11, and yet again at 21:29. Since User:JzG has demonstrated his disdain for Misplaced Pages's conflict of interest guideline, he should be topic-banned from any edits relating to Brian Martin. KalHolmann (talk) 22:35, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• No. Off-wiki criticism of on-wiki actions does not make a conflict of interest. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
• No --Tarage (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
• No No evidence for a conflict of interest. Plenty of evidence for a butt-hurt academic. Kleuske (talk) 22:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
• No reason to believe this is a COI problem. O3000 (talk) 22:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
• No Topic banning an editor because an article's subject names them off-site sets a bad precedent. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment WP:BLPCOI: "An editor who is involved in a significant controversy or dispute with another individual—whether on- or off-wiki—or who is an avowed rival of that individual, should not edit that person's biography or other material about that person, given the potential conflict of interest. More generally, editors who have a strongly negative or positive view of the subject of a biographical article should be especially careful to edit that article neutrally, if they choose to edit it at all." I don't think a topic ban is needed, but in accordance with the BLP precautionary spirit it would be best if someone else handled the situation. I mean, it's not exactly the best look for integrity when JzG is creating a thread about an article he is mentioned in, on the fringe theory noticeboard . Also it seems like JzG is unnecessarily personalizing the dispute there, speculating that Netoholic's main motivation appears to be his repeated failure to change articles due to Misplaced Pages's "ideological bias". I agree that it's problematic that this only came to be after the academic mentioned him in the article; but it also means it's already a multi-step "rivalry". --Pudeo (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
• No - I see no COI here, and as has been mentioned, TBANning an editor because a subject mentions them off-wiki sets a perverse precedent that could allow subjects to game the system. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 23:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
• No to topic banning re "any mention of Brian Martin", but it would probably be a good idea for Guy to let someone else handle anything relating to this paper by Martin critical of him. EEng 23:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
• No - It is absurd to suggest that someone outside Misplaced Pages could determine who should not edit an article about them. Moriori (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - This appears to be in retaliation for WP:AN#KalHolmann. Not saying it is for sure, just that it appears to be. Swarm ♠ 00:29, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• No. Also, a WP:BOOMERANG or at least a trout to the filer for rewriting history. --Calton | Talk 00:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• No, obviously, per what I wrote just above. — Rhododendrites \\ 01:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

IP 2405:204:208:D051:A489:E92E:D5CA:985C

Can someone block this IP right now? Impersonation of SpacemanSpiff and edit-warring. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• It's just Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/JBM1971 (although, I think that SPI has to be split to two groups). I've blocked the Ip for 12 hours now, unlikely to stick to this any longer than that.—SpacemanSpiff 14:27, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Disruptive editing following AfD appeal decision

About 3 weeks ago User:Alexbrn proposed Criticisms of medicine for deletion. After 2 weeks of discussion, an administrator ruled for deletion. Believing that there was no consensus for deletion and that strong policy-based arguments had not been presented for deletion, I appealed that decision. Yesterday an administrator overturned the deletion decision and restored the article. Within minutes User:Alexbrn made 18 deletion edits to Criticisms of medicine, reducing it to an incoherent stub (from about 19KB to about 1300 bytes) and immediately again proposed it for deletion in the vandalized form. The new AfD discussion has many new delete opinions, is confused and pointless. I'm a new editor, but even I can see that this refusal to accept the consensus of the deletion appeal process is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. NightHeron (talk) 14:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The one thing that is clearly absent here is consensus. The overturn was to no consensus, basically. There is nothing wrong with another discussion of this article, given the problems identified elsewhere. Maybe this time there will actually be a consensus. Guy (Help!) 15:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Wow, that was messed up. I can't see that as anything other than an attempt to alter the AfD outcome. But that aside, it's been restored, it doesn't look like any of the current opposers are doing so based on the fact that it was mostly blanked like that. Do you disagree? (Just as a procedural note, the DRV consensus was to change the closing admin's reading of the discussion to "no consensus". It was not a consensus to "keep" in itself.) Swarm ♠ 15:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

There's a real concern if the article is again discussed at length in AfD. Editors have already spent 3 weeks discussing deletion (2 in AfD + 1 in appeal). There was obvious consensus (with a few dissenters, including User:Alexbrn) that the topic is appropriate for Misplaced Pages. Of course it needs improvement, as would any new article written by a newcomer. I've found two new sources to add for that purpose as soon as we pass to a constructive phase of improvement rather than quarreling about deletion.

In addition, I'd much appreciate it if experienced editors could think about a procedural issue that I, as a newcomer, don't have any idea how to deal with. A fairly large group of like-minded editors, most (not all) of whom are members of WikiProject Medicine, apparently have the article and related discussions watchlisted, so that they can immediately jump in to any discussion. That's perfectly compliant with policy. However, I cannot try to alert people who have views closer to mine about an article, because that would violate WP:CANVASSING. So any such discussion is likely to be lopsided. This came up in discussions about Alternative medicine (those discussions resulted in my being advised to write a separate article about Criticisms of medicine). For this reason I've been warned by an experienced editor that it'll be a waste of my time to try to edit the polemical tone and slanted content of the alt med article. That particular article has also been the subject of an off-Wiki complaint (see the discussion of the article on the NPOV noticeboard), where it was used to illustrate a general criticism of Misplaced Pages. Using the alt med article as the basis for a general criticism of Misplaced Pages is unfair, because the article is an outlier. Even though I'm a new editor, I've been reading Misplaced Pages for many years, and I'm unaware of any other article that is so polemical and slanted (except for ones that are quickly deleted or else edited to remove the POV).NightHeron (talk) 16:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I was raising this same issue yesterday and was badly chastened by many other users saying "I am seeking suicide by cops" and "sinned", but after calmly considering all points, I think I had new ideas which I am glad that ANI was closed rightly yesterday.--Quek157 (talk) 18:16, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I was off-wiki for the previous AfD and DRV and I'm participating in the current AfD. For what it's worth, my comments over there are based on a reading of this version, which I suppose is the version NightHeron wants us to consider — or at least not the stub-ified version. From reading some of the other comments, I don't think I'm alone in that. A Train 17:53, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• The OP disclosed on 21 May that it is an alt account and that they edit about abortion. Looking at their contribs they edit a lot about alt med too. So.. alt account for two topics with DS.

User:NightHeron, is your other account under any sanctions related to medicine, abortion, or CAM? Jytdog (talk) 16:44, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Absolutely not. As I say on the NightHeron userpage, there is no overlap whatsoever between the topics edited under my true name and those edited under NightHeron. I made it clear at the beginning that I am an "outsider" to the health sciences -- that's not my field. My true name account does not edit there at all and never will. I also have no involvement in the CAM world, either professionally or otherwise, and will never edit anything related to CAM under my true name. I was led to the alt med page from the abortion subtopic of herbal abortifacients. Thanks for asking rather than jumping to incorrect conclusions. NightHeron (talk) 20:19, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

User: Maude~Duggel

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Maude~Duggel has a history of making uncivil comments. See the description of the following edit. and edit . In addition, the editor had a history of creating and submitting draft articles for inclusion in the mainspace via AFC with only very minor changes between versions. See Draft:The Disney Brain and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jerson Sapida. This editor's edits are disruptive and frankly have wasted numerous hours of volunteer time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reddogsix (talk • contribs) 14:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I've been watching their talkpage since AfC declining one of their junk submissions. About an hour ago I was thinking of bringing them to ANi myself. Their participation at AfD is suboptimal as well, voting twice, making weird comments etc. I'm not sure the solution but maybe prohibit them from creating new drafts or mainspace pages for 6 months? That would reduce the AfD issues too and give them some time to learn more about Wikiacceptable behavior? Legacypac (talk) 14:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• I hadn't realized she'd edited more articles than what's currently at Draft:The Disney Brain. Early versions of it and her reactions to its deletion had all the hallmarks of autobiography. —Cryptic 15:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I have blocked the user. I have tried to reason with her, offer advice in AFDs, and even given her a final warning about civility, which she just violated. She is welcome to appeal her block and I will consider it, because I feel that she could be a good contributor here, if she can listen to advice, get the message from all the deletions of her articles, be civil, and stop the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:46, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Nheyob looks compromised

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Look at this: . wumbolo ^^^ 15:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Already blocked by JzG (talk · contribs). ~Anachronist (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I have run a check and am satisfied that the account is not compromised. Today's vandalism comes from the same user who appears to have edited constructively in the past. The user should not be unblocked until they acknowledge and explain the vandalism.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

IAWI

• IAWI (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

@EdJohnston:, one move is not vandalism, these many problems are. It is with much regret I came here, on advice at . I have a few grievances with it. I tend to let this slide but no.

1. Inappropriate AFD nominations this one I reverted, 2nd one, 3rd one, 4th one
2. Inappropriate AFD closure, no way it is a SNOW close, and no way can that be SKCRIT, the whole discussion did not take into account anything, with a notice that I didn't do my homework
3. Inappropriate moves of To. Day to Draft:To.Day after I clearly had done my New Page Patrol. I added reimprove sources, and then they move back into drafts. There are now at least 4 new sources available. Per WP:DRAFTIFY, they should not had done these. Many other of their moves are unacceptable. (see move log)
4. Triggering multiple edit filters, as well as multiple PRODs on new articles, as well as a AFD on their article due to @Kudpung: cannot delete via A7 with nearly unanimous consensus at AFD.P4R4G0N_(hacktivist) One alone is disruptive, warning is enough, but multiple needs admin attention.

• User involved: IAWI.
• I already will like to end this entire coming to AN/I, however, this entire continuation of nonsensical issues with IAWI is unacceptable. --Quek157 (talk) 16:32, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• User involved notified User_talk:IAWI#Deletion_discussion_about_Rudolf_Kallaste --Quek157 (talk) 16:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• Not seeking ban, but a strong last warning this is not acceptable and refer to all the closes in AFD and all the nominations properly. --Quek157 (talk) 16:37, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi Admins, I am sorry but this is absurd, I'm not even mad, I'm laughing. 1. Please view this Ed clearly explained to him that he is overreacting, Quek157 didn't even tell me anything before coming to this board. - You'll see the person in question being kind of 'bias mad' towards me for no reason. 2. I even went to his talk page reagrding the AfD that he did NO HOMEWORK on as he nominated it, and explained his faulty nomination, view here. I'm very confused honestly, I even tried to be nice via sending him an informative messeage of his faulty nomination in his talk page. 3. I have not closed anyhting except CLEAR OBVIOUS Snow cases. 4. I respect everyone, and I except to be respected to. Thank u. --IAWI (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

User_talk:IAWI#Deletion_discussion_about_Rudolf_Kallaste clearly someone else is telling you SNOW close is not appropriate. You are the writer of the article and I AFD it, there is no way you can SNOW close this. Admins, do this reminds you about the Kirbazano case? innocent party. im sorry very sorry --Quek157 (talk) 16:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Luckily, User:Bbb23 has suddenly appeared and blocked User:IAWI as a sock. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

first proper usage of ANI. @Swarm: I did well right. can give me a barnstar for it ? Quek157 (talk) 17:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• As best I can see, the disruptive and snow keep AfDs have all been closed, and the few with out standing Deletes or when I voted delete remain open. I am going through his very edits, and they are lame "military >> military," e.g., failures to comply with MOS:Overlink, and piddlesome edits. I apologise for all this, if I had not slacked from delsorting and seen that he had made so many AFDs at once as a new user, I would have contacted Bishonen or someone to alert them to possible sockpuppetry, at the time all I saw was his "relevance" fetish which I ignored also, so I'll take any trout sent my way. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 20:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Done --Quek157 (talk) 20:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

one last disruptive AFD to close. I am involved so no way. --Quek157 (talk) 21:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Yup, just found that one. All current edits have been and the improper ones reverted. Thanks all, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 21:15, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Factchecker atyourservice

I asked him to stop pinging me, and he pinged me anyway. Note: I did not read the content of whatever he wrote, as that would reward the undesirable behavior. I do not wish to have any further interactions with this user. Taking my own advice, I am not watching his talk page, and if I see any comment anywhere with his signature I skip to the next comment without reading it.

Related: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Statement by Guy Macon --Guy Macon (talk) 16:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

You know you can mute notifications from him at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo, right? —Cryptic 16:39, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Deliberate pinging after a request to desist may is also be clear harassment; e.g. —SerialNumber54129 16:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

No, I am not sure it is (at least not in intent). I think we just have a user who is not there for anything other then what he wants to read.Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Clarified. —SerialNumber54129 16:52, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I just wanted him to stop. I just muted him in my preferences, which solves the immediate problem. If he pings me again I won't see it and someone else can deal with it if they feel like it. Thanks, Cryptic! I had forgotten that I can do that. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, part of his one-way iBan includes an order not to ping me. When you tell someone to stop pinging, and they keep doing it, that's harassment. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Hey, I thought you were going to disengage and get as far away as possible, BR. ~Awilley (talk) 17:26, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

This certainly is harassment; what’s more it is a habit of Factchecker’s. Earlier, after being banned from User:BullRangifer's talk page (a ban which took several requests from BR and finally from an admin before he would respect it), he then switched to criticizing BR at other sites, pinging him every time, so that an admin finally had to impose an IBAN to stop him. This new one is a particularly egregious example since the ping came immediately after, and in response to, Guy saying “don’t ping me”. Factchecker is currently blocked for a week. This harassing ping to Guy, from Factchecker’s talk page, came while the block was in place. IMO there is a strong case here for extending the block. --MelanieN (talk) 17:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Support per MelanieN. I would say harassment is a bit of a strong term, but it's definitely disruptive behavior. Andrevan@ 18:46, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Frankly you need to get a thicker skin if you consider just one instance of using Template:Reply to (when actually replying to you) as harassment. I can understand it could be harassment if someone's using it to spam jabs at someone who's not relevant to the dicussion in different venues, but not in a discussion. Don't be that guy. --Pudeo (talk) 17:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Molehill alert. Especially when one person seems to order him to change his name as being against Misplaced Pages rules, etc. There are times when silence is the best answer, but AN/I is a dram board and not a solution for much of anything. Collect (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Not sure what user A being a berk has to do with user b doing something to user C they have asked them not to do. I can think of reason to say this ANI is unnecessary (some of them above), but this is not one of them.Slatersteven (talk) 19:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, my username discussion was closed and nobody aside from me seems to mind that Factchecker is a username that connotes some authority, so nothing's going to be done about that. I have not interacted with this user directly, but his constant drumbeat that "there is no evidence against Trump" is clearly tendentious POV pushing. I don't have any specific evidence aside from his POV pattern of editing, as laid out by Jytdog, that he is a problem user. Andrevan@ 19:06, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support block - temporary or indef not fussed which - If one asks to stop being pinged and that editor carries on regardless then that's harassment ?, Muting the editor resolves the pinging but it doesn't resolve the editors harassing behaviour, It's no different to asking someone to stop posting on your talkpage and that person carrying on regardless ..... If you're asked to stop then you stop ..... if you ignore that request then yeah IMHO that's harassment. –Davey2010 21:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• I would not support a block of Factchecker on the basis of this incident alone, but it's all a part of their general modus operandi, which encompasses pretty much every BATTLEGROUND-related behavior in the book. When someone asks you not to bother them, and you then immediately bother them, that's not harassment per se, but it is the first step on the road to harassment, and any additional actions along those lines would warrant a block.The bigger picture can be seen on the AE complaint about Factchecker , which arose out of the AN complaint about him . It looks like the AE complaint is going to wind up with a topic ban from American politics -- it's the length of the TB that's under discussion at this point -- and Factchecker is right now serving out a block for the same disruptive BATTLEGROUND behaviors reported in those threads. The path here is clear, and -- unless they change their behavior radically -- it ends, at some point in the future, either sooner or later, with an indef block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:38, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Is it appropriate to have two open "cases" going on at the same time, Guy? Factchecker is already blocked, and has an open case ongoing at AE. I pulled my horse from this race, but I'm curious to know if having an ANI case and an AE case going on at the same time for an editor that is currently blocked and just the other day had a different ANI case closed and directed to AE. This is all getting quite confusing, if you know what I mean. 22:28, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The incident reported here is separate from the incidents reported at AN and AE, so a new report is indeed warranted. There's no confusion at all here: the general issue is Factchecker's behavior, and it manifests itself in numerous incidents, including this specific one, which took place while they were blocked. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Support extending the block for harassment. If he doesn't understand the concept of not pinging someone who doesn't want to be pinged he doesn't have the competency to edit here. Make it two weeks and tell him to knock it the fuck off. --Tarage (talk) 23:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Or... here's a crazy thought: people being pinged by him could just, oh I don't know -- ignore it? WP:COMPULSORY comes to mind. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:43, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Please do not encourage harassment. People here are smart enough to know that being a creep is just as bad as someone who vents with a stream of abuse. Violators are blocked for the latter and have been blocked for the former, and that should happen in this case. Johnuniq (talk) 01:00, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

My solution is hardly encouraging harassment, it's using a method known as shaping behavior. Behaviorists use the ignore technique successfully all the time. It works. More editors in Misplaced Pages should try it. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:19, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Sigh, I wrote a long reply explaining why this is an idiotic suggestion but tablet lost it. Suffice to say we are not here to modify bad behaviour. Editors either edit according to Misplaced Pages's social requirements or they get shown the door until they do so. One of those requirements is when someone asks you to stop poking them, you stop poking them. Only in death does duty end (talk) 01:36, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

We modify poor behavior choices all the time. Sanctions, blocks, bans, and so on. By bringing this miniscule act here (the unwanted pinging) it's very possible the pinger (Factchecker) has now gotten what he wanted: attention. I don't know that for sure, but by prolonging this and hashing over it and everyone gnashing their teeth over pinging, who ends up getting satisfaction? Certainly not those going ape$#!t over it all. It's pinging, for heaven's sake. Ignore it and move on. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:44, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

If I ask you not to continue to call me and your response is to say "Just turn off your cell phone", I think I'm within my rights to say "No, how about you stop calling me?" Don't be daft. It's harassment to ping someone if they don't want to be pinged, just like it's harassment to continue to post on someone's talk page if they have asked you not to. --Tarage (talk) 02:00, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

An even more effective tool for shaping behavior is to block people who misbehave until they agree to behave going forwards, which stops them from disrupting the project entirely. Even putting aside the obviously unacceptable behavior of pinging someone after they've asked them to stop, I don't see how this comment is in any way WP:CIVIL: Let's get one thing straight: I am patiently humoring you, not the other way around. If you want to be a good lil' WP editor, that is purely your own decision and you should not expect obeisance or fawning praise or dog-like servility from me. Oh and next time you're earnestly "trying" you might think twice about obnoxious little specactles like... Given that he is misbehaving so severely while already blocked for similar behavior, I feel that moving to an indefinite community block is at least worth discussing; and I'm baffled as to why you're so repeatedly outspoken in defending him. This isn't even a matter of content disputes or ideological differences, this is just a user who fairly unambiguously seems to think that WP:CIVIL does not apply to him - someone who still holds the opinions he expressed about Misplaced Pages in his edit summary when he left three years ago and who mistreats any user he disagrees with accordingly. This is part of a long pattern if misbehavior going back years across multiple articles and interactions with a wide variety of people (as many users have documented in the active WP:AE request concerning him), so if you feel that his contributions are valuable, you should be spending your time trying to convince him to back down and stop digging himself in deeper, rather than publicly defending behavior that is clearly and unambiguously unacceptable. Otherwise, even if you manage to help him avoid a community ban this time, I find it very hard to believe that he will avoid sanctions in the future unless he changes his behavior. --Aquillion (talk) 01:51, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

"even if you manage to help him avoid a community ban this time, I find it very hard to believe that he will avoid sanctions in the future unless he changes his behavior." I'm not trying to help him avoid a community ban. I recognize that there's a pattern and history of behavior. I'm just saying that the OP and others getting worked up over pinging (no matter who does it) seems like an over-reaction and there are better ways to handle it than bringing it to a drama board. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 02:05, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Three editors have told you that you are mistaken. Ignoring bullies might be the only practical advice for a kid going to school, but at Misplaced Pages obvious abuse does not need to be tolerated. Johnuniq (talk) 07:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I think the point is not that he is bullying, it is the fact he is not listening. I agree (as I said in my OP) that reacting to the ping with an ANI is an overreaction. But one born out of frustration, by an edd who has tried to help FC and, basically, was presented with the same attitudes and behaviors that he had tried to talk FC out of engage in t avoid sanctions.Slatersteven (talk) 13:25, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Johnuniq, oh no. Three whole editors out of a cast of thousands? Three online people who could range in age demographics from childhood to senility have told me I'm wrong? Gee, I better reconsider what I said, then because if .0001% of faceless Misplaced Pages editors say I'm wrong, I must be - right?

In all seriousness and all snark aside, you said it exactly: "for a kid going to school". When someone acts like a child and everything else has been tried, then respond to them as you would with a child. And don't bring the childish behavior that doesn't hurt you or the community (pinging is not bullying) to a noticeboard before trying basic behavior management techniques. Look how much time people have wasted on this silliness when any and all of us could have been doing more productive things for the encyclopedia. Sure, there's frustration (as BMK said), but this is the internet: we all have control over what we view, accept into our editing environment, and respond to. Someone above used a cellphone analogy above as a parallel. My response to that which echoes my thoughts on using behavior management techniques: ignore the caller. And, lo and behold, it's been pointed out to the OP that there is a tool to stop pings from specific editors. Which is exactly what I suggested: put them on permanent "ignore". If the unwanted behavior is ignored and not mentioned on talk pages, the desired result by the one performing the childish act(s) is not achieved, and they soon get bored with doing something that doesn't provide the satisfaction they seek. One may do the ignoring technologically, but it's possible to do it mentally, too. Just takes self-discipline. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 14:30, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Or we can throw them out, just as we would if it was any other private function they decided to crap on the floor of.Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• An IP editor closed this discussion, without signing the closure. I have undone the closing, per WP:NACIP, which specifies that unregistered editors (i.e. IPs) should not make NAC closures. I have no objection to a registered editor closing it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:15, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose can't you just go over it?!!! Are we going to block a useful contributor just because he pinged someone who asked not to be? L293D (☎ • ✎) 15:50, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Striking after an Email from BR. But I still think we ought to give him a final warning. L293D (☎ • ✎) 20:08, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

User:Pablogarcia4

This user has been warned many times by many editors about adding unsourced content but continues to do so. Please see the multitude of messages at User talk:Pablogarcia4, including the 11 from me over the last several weeks. Policies on communication and sourcing (WP:DISPUTE, WP:CONDUCT, WP:V) have been signposted to, offers of help made etc. This editor appears to have been editing for only six weeks (which is why I messaged them 11 times before I came here) but I would be very interested in whether they had edited under another name previously, considering their editing pattern. They have never edited their talk page. Boleyn (talk) 18:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Need help undoing vandalism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please help undo the extensive vandalism by blocked user User:Dan Glickman. -- Alexf 20:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Done. Thanks to everyone else who helped. Sarahj2107 (talk) 20:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

DanielleDiddreaSaprks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Given this edit, could an admin please block DanielleDiddreaSaprks (talk · contribs) per WP:NOTHERE? Thank you. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Nevermind, this has already happened. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Doria Ragland (2nd nomination)

I have nominated this article for deletion for a second time. I don’t feel the closing administrator made a closure based on Misplaced Pages policy the first time around and I would appreciate some admins more familiar with wiki policy to keep an eye on this, however the discussion goes, to make sure a policy based closure is made and not one based in popularity due to who the subject’s daughter is. Best.4meter4 (talk) 23:18, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@4meter4: Why didn't you use WP:DELREV? --NeilN 23:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Didn’t know that was an option.4meter4 (talk) 23:37, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@4meter4: I've closed the AFD. Please use WP:DELREV. --NeilN 23:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps a rangeblock for POV edits from Miami -- disruption since 2014

Someone using Miami IPs in the range Special:Contributions/2600:1700:CAF0:6D30:0:0:0:0/64 has been making non-neutral and unreferenced changes to film, actor and actress articles. The disruption has been occurring in this IP range since November 2017, but they previously used the range Special:Contributions/2602:301:77C2:D2E0:0:0:0:0/64, from May 2014 to October 2017. Disruption from this person resulted in the Gary Oldman biography being protected on December 23, 2017, after which this person submitted edit requests on the talk page, so in that regard they are following procedure. But a great many of their edits are non-neutral, for instance these edits which removed positive reviews from the Jessica Chastain biography, and these unreferenced negative assertions about Andy Cohen. Other actions include the addition of unreferenced future work of various actors.

Since there is little to admire about the editing of this person, and much to revert, I think we should place a rangeblock on the active IPs. Binksternet (talk) 23:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:RPP has a 24hr + backlog

Hi there, I left a message at WP:AN yesterday but RPP’s backlog is now in excess of 24 hrs and 30 requests, if an admin could take a look that would be great. I hope it’s not poor form to post in both places. Thanks! ...   CJ in  Oz  00:43, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Isn't there a noticeboard like WP:ANRFC for backlog alerts like this? I hardly ever view this here WP:CESSPIT page. ~Anachronist (talk)

It would be nice if the system could ping us for backlogs. If it can, I do not know the setting.Dlohcierekim's sock User talk:Dlohcierekim 08:05, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

No, I do not think it is easily possible. Checking the watchlist (edit summaries of this page by bot) and the page itself seems to be the only way.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:57, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

yeah. I watchlist AIV, RFPP, and UAA when I'm home, but now I'm at work and using my non admin account.Dlohcierekim's sock User talk:Dlohcierekim 09:36, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Then only checking the page on a regular basis would help.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

In principle, the bot knows whether the page (specifically, RFPP) is backlogged or not, and this information can be added e.g. to the watchlist notice on top, but I am not sure there could be consensus for this.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:RPP is now almost clear. Hhkohh (talk) 10:26, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Cleared, for the moment. It would be nice to have more admins watching that, though; I spent a lot longer there today than I would really like to. Vanamonde (talk) 10:28, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Now 4 requests remain. Hhkohh (talk) 10:53, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for the valiant efforts of the admins who cleared it up, I'm sorry if this wasn't the right way to post but as the AN request hadn't got any traction I wasn't sure what else to do. One question though, I noticed that requests weren't deal with in the order they were requested. Some were actioned that were at the bottom of the list (only a few hours old) whilst some of the oldest ones got ignored. That's happened to pages I've requested twice now. What is the protocol there? And should it change? ...   CJ in  Oz  11:58, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• CJ, for one thing, it was the right way. ANRFC is just for "this discussion is ready to be closed, and could someone assess consensus", and anyway it's good to post here instead, since ANRFC is routinely spammed by a few specific users to the point that it's basically useless. So yes, you came to the right place. Meanwhile, yes this is normal, and it shouldn't change — the only options, as far as I can see, are allowing admins to handle whichever items they want or requiring them to handle them in a specific order. If there's a difficult item, someone might go past it and handle an easier one, but should the page require them to be handled in a specific order, admins might simply go elsewhere, since they don't want to handle the difficult item and mustn't handle the easy ones. And thus the backlog becomes worse until someone comes along who would have been willing to handle the difficult item anyway. Nyttend (talk) 12:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Well said. Also, some items are bypassed as they do not appear ripe, and we are awaiting further developments.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 15:32, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Revoke talk page access for TheCrimsonraven

• TheCrimsonraven (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Any admin here can revoke talk page access for this user, since he's now using it just to put out threats and more vandalism. Thanks. theinstantmatrix (talk) 13:04, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Done. Courcelles (talk) 13:07, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

And since they've claimed they'll just create another account, I've semi'd the main target of their childishness. Black Kite (talk) 13:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Iesnikuf

Four out of five of Iesnikuf's edit summaries (and the fifth is blank) are inappropriate, referring to other editors as "autistic" or "retarded". The final one occurred after my second warning about this behavior on their talk page. I think a stronger warning than I can give is required. Thanks.— TAnthony 13:41, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. When they evince an ability to work/play well with others, they can request unblock. If any admin thinks I over did it, please feel free to reverse me, as I'll be sleeping and working. If a CU has a spare moment, it might be worth a further a peek with their spidey vision.-- Dlohcierekim (talk)

Endorse block. That is not a promising new user for a collaborative encyclopedia project. A Train 17:23, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Rampant sockpuppetry accusations and personal attacks at Talk:Columbia University

Can someone please stop by Talk:Columbia University? It's become an extremely contentious discussion with many specific accusations of sockpuppetry and personal attacks. The article has a long history of being edited by a banned sockmaster so it's natural that the editors suspect sockpuppetry (I share those suspicions) but editors are now slinging accusations at specific editors but refusing to file actual sockpuppet investigation requests so the discussion has become very unproductive and hostile. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 13:33, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Emma Barnett

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We really need an open discussion on Emma Barnett’s profile - there are important issues in her past from within her family that (it could be argued) unfairly gave her a privileged upbringing. There appears to be a concerted effort to remove this information on the part of administrators and influential editors making it appear that they are working together to hide this from the public eye. It is very much in the public interest to keep this in the public domain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JJ1970 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

You are already discussing this on the article talk page, the correct place, and you have been given good advice to read WP:BLP. Please do so. 331dot (talk) 18:33, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

That's true of many journalists; unless this topic is covered by impeccable sources (so no "it could be argued" wankery) this would seem to be a very problematic angle to pursue. Alexbrn (talk) 18:35, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards