User:KAVEBEAR: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 16:20, 28 May 2018 editKAVEBEAR (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers67,447 edits Undid revision 843351630 by Huaka'i Emerson (talk)Tag: Undo ← Previous edit		Revision as of 16:40, 28 May 2018 edit undoHuaka'i Emerson (talk \| contribs)27 editsNo edit summaryTags: Mobile edit Mobile web editNext edit →
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			of Hawaii Press. ISBN 978-0-87022-433-1. OCLC 500374815.
			I am restoring the text in the article. — Maile (talk) 00:02, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

			I see 5 albert square was one step ahead of me in restoring the text. Anyway, let's please not delete it again. As sourced arbove, Emerson was there, and he did indeed help draft that constitution. — Maile (talk) 00:09, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
			I still wonder if someone might have had a very embarrassing misreading there. What the editor complained about would be true if the article subject had been born in 1889 instead of 1839. What an awesome reason for an edit-war. Face-wink.svg ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
			! wow ToBeFree, you win the all time award for WP:AGFTantraYum (talk) 01:37, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
			Pining a few users, this discussion has re-opened. Maile66 (talk · contribs) ToBeFree (talk · contribs) `TantraYum (talk)
			The information is found in primary source not accessible online. The addition was made by a commentor (104.128.108.2) to the linked Facebook post above. At the time the addition was made, the article was completely uncited so there was no reason to remove it. But Emerson's involvement in the Bayonet Constitution and the overthrow seems apparent in the primary sources and Kuykendall. There is very little quality biographical imformation on Emerson that analyzes him in detail.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:11, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
			The Hawaiian League consists of these 13 members:

			The Committee of Safety, formally the Citizen's Committee of Public Safety, was a 13-member group of the Hawaiian League also known as the Annexation Club. Henry E. Cooper, Chairman, Theodore F. Lansing, Henry Waterhouse, Lorrin A. Thurston, Ed Suhr, F.W. McChesney, John Emmeluth, Wm. R. Castle, Wm. O. Smith, J.A. McCandless, C. Bolte, W.C. Wilder, and Andrew Brown.

			Dr. Nathaniel Bright Emerson is NOT a member! Huaka'i Emerson (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

			Huaka'i Emerson (talk · contribs) Thanks for joining in the discussion.
			What is the source of this information? If it meets the criteria for WP:RS it can be included in the article TantraYum (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
			The rationale seems to show some ignorance of Hawaiian history since the members mentioned above are part of the Committee of Saftey in 1893 not the Hawaiian League. For example Henry E. Cooper did not even arrive in the islands until 1890 well after the Bayonet Constitution was formed. The Hawaiian League founded in 1887 by a number of individuals including Emerson. Emerson's involvement in the group are mentioned in these sources.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:37, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
			Osorio, Jon Kamakawiwoʻole (2002). Dismembering Lāhui: A History of the Hawaiian Nation to 1887. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. p. 15. ISBN 0-8248-2549-7. OCLC 48579247.
			Kuykendall, Ralph Simpson (1967). The Hawaiian Kingdom 1874–1893, The Kalakaua Dynasty. 3. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. p. 347. ISBN 978-0-87022-433-1. OCLC 500374815.
			Ashford, Clarence W. (1919). "Last Days of the Hawaiian Monarchy" (PDF). Twenty-Seventh Annual Report of the Hawaiian Historical Society for the Year 1918. Honolulu: Hawaiian Historical Society. 27: 19–30. hdl:10524/54.; Later Recollection by Clarence W. Ashford that Emerson and his brother was a member of the secret society]
			Vowell, Sarah (2011). Unfamiliar Fishes. New York: Riverhead Books. pp. 198–199. ISBN 978-1-101-48645-0. OCLC 646111859.
			Forbes, David W., ed. (2003). Hawaiian National Bibliography, 1780–1900, Volume 4: 1881–1900. 4. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. pp. 232–233. ISBN 978-0-8248-2636-9. OCLC 123279964. Forbes mentions the constitution in the Hawaii State Archives with Emerson listed as a contributor
			Thurston, Lorrin A. (1936). Farrell, Andrew, ed. Memoirs of the Hawaiian Revolution. Honolulu: Honolulu, Advertiser Publishing Company. pp. 130–131, 143, 604. OCLC 6128790.; Emerson is listed as a member on page 604 as the 14th member on the list
			Dole, Sanford B. (1936). Farrell, Andrew, ed. Memoirs of the Hawaiian Revolution. Honolulu: Honolulu, Advertiser Publishing Company. pp. 44–56. OCLC 4823270.; Emerson is named in this source but describe the process the founding members had in the creation of the constitution
			Is this enough or do I need to continue? The evidence clearly proves that Emerson was not only an active member of the group responsible for writing the Bayonet Constitution but was also a main contributor per the note in the original 1887 constitution in the Hawaii State Archives. The sharpshooter inclusion earlier is traced to a primary source where Emerson signed a letter from men addressed to Dole and the Provisional Government offering their services as sharpshooter (see Facebook link above for the letter). I have yet to encounter sources stating Emerson testied in favor of annexation but I am not surprised if he did. His work translating Hawaiian mythology does not prove he did not support annexation. It also seems a lot of his translations have been viewed negatively too since he looked down on parts of Hawaiian culture that did not suited his American conservative sensibilities including the mele maʻi or genital chants. (Vowell, p. 199). Also one last point, stating Emerson's name was not on the constitution is probably right but doesn't prove he was not involved because constitutions are government documents and usually drafted by multiple individuals; they are signed by the monarch not the people responsible for drafting it, so none of the contributors to the 1887 contrition would have signed the documents.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:37, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

			There is and has been a clear consensus to include this material, many different reasons have been offered by Huaka'i Emerson (talk · contribs) to remove it, so far, none of them have been accurate or valid. Per 3rr, I cannot restore the removed material.... please feel free to, and include the above material as well. Thanks! TantraYum (talk)`
			If someone says you are a member of a secret society does that make it true?

			What if I said every editor from Misplaced Pages was really a member of a secret Nazi fact burning party seeking to destroy all information & knowledge as we know it?

			Would this be true?

			Where are the facts (aside from the fact no University on Earth will admit Misplaced Pages as a valid source)?

			Dr. Emerson was not a member off these groups or did he have any contribution to the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom.

			This is false.

			Dr. Emerson has contributed volumes of Hawaiian history & unwritten Hula to our archives.

			Misplaced Pages is slandering a great man with hearsay and misinformation.

			Dr. Emerson was born & raised in Hawai'i & worked his entire life to save Hawaiian culture proven by his great works.

			STOP SLANDERING OUR FAMILY WITH MISINFORMATION

Revision as of 16:40, 28 May 2018

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of Hawaii Press. ISBN 978-0-87022-433-1. OCLC 500374815. I am restoring the text in the article. — Maile (talk) 00:02, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I see 5 albert square was one step ahead of me in restoring the text. Anyway, let's please not delete it again. As sourced arbove, Emerson was there, and he did indeed help draft that constitution. — Maile (talk) 00:09, 13 May 2018 (UTC) I still wonder if someone might have had a very embarrassing misreading there. What the editor complained about would be true if the article subject had been born in 1889 instead of 1839. What an awesome reason for an edit-war. Face-wink.svg ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

! wow ToBeFree, you win the all time award for WP:AGFTantraYum (talk) 01:37, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Pining a few users, this discussion has re-opened. Maile66 (talk · contribs) ToBeFree (talk · contribs) `TantraYum (talk) The information is found in primary source not accessible online. The addition was made by a commentor (104.128.108.2) to the linked Facebook post above. At the time the addition was made, the article was completely uncited so there was no reason to remove it. But Emerson's involvement in the Bayonet Constitution and the overthrow seems apparent in the primary sources and Kuykendall. There is very little quality biographical imformation on Emerson that analyzes him in detail.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:11, 15 May 2018 (UTC) The Hawaiian League consists of these 13 members:

The Committee of Safety, formally the Citizen's Committee of Public Safety, was a 13-member group of the Hawaiian League also known as the Annexation Club. Henry E. Cooper, Chairman, Theodore F. Lansing, Henry Waterhouse, Lorrin A. Thurston, Ed Suhr, F.W. McChesney, John Emmeluth, Wm. R. Castle, Wm. O. Smith, J.A. McCandless, C. Bolte, W.C. Wilder, and Andrew Brown.

Dr. Nathaniel Bright Emerson is NOT a member! Huaka'i Emerson (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Huaka'i Emerson (talk · contribs) Thanks for joining in the discussion. What is the source of this information? If it meets the criteria for WP:RS it can be included in the article TantraYum (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2018 (UTC) The rationale seems to show some ignorance of Hawaiian history since the members mentioned above are part of the Committee of Saftey in 1893 not the Hawaiian League. For example Henry E. Cooper did not even arrive in the islands until 1890 well after the Bayonet Constitution was formed. The Hawaiian League founded in 1887 by a number of individuals including Emerson. Emerson's involvement in the group are mentioned in these sources.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:37, 28 May 2018 (UTC) Osorio, Jon Kamakawiwoʻole (2002). Dismembering Lāhui: A History of the Hawaiian Nation to 1887. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. p. 15. ISBN 0-8248-2549-7. OCLC 48579247. Kuykendall, Ralph Simpson (1967). The Hawaiian Kingdom 1874–1893, The Kalakaua Dynasty. 3. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. p. 347. ISBN 978-0-87022-433-1. OCLC 500374815. Ashford, Clarence W. (1919). "Last Days of the Hawaiian Monarchy" (PDF). Twenty-Seventh Annual Report of the Hawaiian Historical Society for the Year 1918. Honolulu: Hawaiian Historical Society. 27: 19–30. hdl:10524/54.; Later Recollection by Clarence W. Ashford that Emerson and his brother was a member of the secret society] Vowell, Sarah (2011). Unfamiliar Fishes. New York: Riverhead Books. pp. 198–199. ISBN 978-1-101-48645-0. OCLC 646111859. Forbes, David W., ed. (2003). Hawaiian National Bibliography, 1780–1900, Volume 4: 1881–1900. 4. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. pp. 232–233. ISBN 978-0-8248-2636-9. OCLC 123279964. Forbes mentions the constitution in the Hawaii State Archives with Emerson listed as a contributor Thurston, Lorrin A. (1936). Farrell, Andrew, ed. Memoirs of the Hawaiian Revolution. Honolulu: Honolulu, Advertiser Publishing Company. pp. 130–131, 143, 604. OCLC 6128790.; Emerson is listed as a member on page 604 as the 14th member on the list Dole, Sanford B. (1936). Farrell, Andrew, ed. Memoirs of the Hawaiian Revolution. Honolulu: Honolulu, Advertiser Publishing Company. pp. 44–56. OCLC 4823270.; Emerson is named in this source but describe the process the founding members had in the creation of the constitution Is this enough or do I need to continue? The evidence clearly proves that Emerson was not only an active member of the group responsible for writing the Bayonet Constitution but was also a main contributor per the note in the original 1887 constitution in the Hawaii State Archives. The sharpshooter inclusion earlier is traced to a primary source where Emerson signed a letter from men addressed to Dole and the Provisional Government offering their services as sharpshooter (see Facebook link above for the letter). I have yet to encounter sources stating Emerson testied in favor of annexation but I am not surprised if he did. His work translating Hawaiian mythology does not prove he did not support annexation. It also seems a lot of his translations have been viewed negatively too since he looked down on parts of Hawaiian culture that did not suited his American conservative sensibilities including the mele maʻi or genital chants. (Vowell, p. 199). Also one last point, stating Emerson's name was not on the constitution is probably right but doesn't prove he was not involved because constitutions are government documents and usually drafted by multiple individuals; they are signed by the monarch not the people responsible for drafting it, so none of the contributors to the 1887 contrition would have signed the documents.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:37, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

There is and has been a clear consensus to include this material, many different reasons have been offered by Huaka'i Emerson (talk · contribs) to remove it, so far, none of them have been accurate or valid. Per 3rr, I cannot restore the removed material.... please feel free to, and include the above material as well. Thanks! TantraYum (talk)` If someone says you are a member of a secret society does that make it true?

What if I said every editor from Misplaced Pages was really a member of a secret Nazi fact burning party seeking to destroy all information & knowledge as we know it?

Would this be true?

Where are the facts (aside from the fact no University on Earth will admit Misplaced Pages as a valid source)?

Dr. Emerson was not a member off these groups or did he have any contribution to the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom.

This is false.

Dr. Emerson has contributed volumes of Hawaiian history & unwritten Hula to our archives.

Misplaced Pages is slandering a great man with hearsay and misinformation.

Dr. Emerson was born & raised in Hawai'i & worked his entire life to save Hawaiian culture proven by his great works.

STOP SLANDERING OUR FAMILY WITH MISINFORMATION

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