Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:30, 7 June 2018

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following: All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction. The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may: ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision; request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email. Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template. A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted. Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies: The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change, or is no longer an administrator; or The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and: the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or the restriction was an indefinite block. A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction: a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE, a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN, a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA. Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped. Standard of review On community review Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if: the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process), the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption. On Arbitration Committee review Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if: the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process), the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action. The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction. This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator. Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state: Appeals by sanctioned editors Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may: ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision; request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org). Modifications by administrators No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without: the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped. Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied. Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions. Important notes: For a request to succeed, either (i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or (ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails. While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify. These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature. All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue. Information for administrators processing requests Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give. A couple of reminders: Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request. When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X". Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Misplaced Pages and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it. More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated. Closing a thread: Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days. Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct. You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages. Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log. Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Makeandtoss

The Rambling Man

François Robere

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning François Robere

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

E-960 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:16, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

François Robere (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Article under "consensus-required" sanctions for any changes: Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#Change in editing restrictions - please read

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 14:53, 2 June 2018 — changes made without gaining consensus first
2. 14:55, 2 June 2018 — changes made without gaining consensus first
3. 15:47, 2 June 2018 — changes made without gaining consensus first

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. —12:03, April 22, 2018, previous attempt at making same changes
2. — 12:21, April 22, 2018, previous attempt at making same changes
3. —17:58, April 23, 2018, previous attempt at making same changes
4. — 09:38, May 13, 2018, previous attempt at making same changes

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Article discretionary sanction in for conduct in the area of conflict placed here and by NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

User François Robere has made these three changes, even though the article is under strict consensus-required prior to any changes sanctions. This follows a pattern of editing by François Robere, where he continues to BLANK-OUT entire sections of text even though many of the statements have been agreed to on the talk page, such as this example here: Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#Academic book about the GG, yet user François Robere goes in and blanks the text as in this edit listed above , or REMOVES text, which was restored after he removed it previously, several days back. In short, these three edits were made without gaining a CONSENSUS on the talk page first, as required by the discretionary sanctions, and follow an pattern of disruptive editing.

• NeilN, all sounds reasonable and no objections on my part. --E-960 (talk) 17:36, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement in excess of 500 words removed (admin action). Sandstein 11:53, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

User François Robere was notified of the AE here:

Discussion concerning François Robere

Statement by François Robere

Few points:

1. Several days ago User:E-960 reverted a series of edits of mine en masse . The edit summary made a false claim about removed material, which leads me to believe that, once more, the user reverted someone's changes without actually reading them.
2. I started a discussion about the reversal . The user made no policy-backed claims, and at some point stopped replying. Now, eleven days later, they file this AE request.
3. Change #1 was never out of consensus. It looks like someone's linguistic mistake, and a petty, petty thing to bring here.
4. Change #3 isn't something I changed before, as I just today finished reading the relevant material. Again a false claim, which suggests the user is more preoccupied with making a claim than with its accuracy - WP:BATTLEGROUND.
5. Change #2 isn't a new edit, it's a reversal to an old revision that was not challenged, as much as "cheated away" by a third user (This goes all the way back to March, where the same user changed quotes of sources to suit their POV . Note the edit summaries).
6. I'm not sure what the user is citing under "relevant sanctions". It's not "sanctions", and it's all from before the page policy was changed.
7. We're left with one edit that supposedly violates the policy. If it does - my apology. I would RFC more of these changes, but there are already 2 RFCs open on the page.
8. An important question on the application of this policy is whether an editor is allowed to refuse consensus by performing a mass reversal, or whether they must reverse specific revisions? If an editor reverses multiple changes in one go, then there's no way to tell which change/s they object and which just got "caught up" with the others; the policy seems to require the reversals to be self-explanatory.

@GizzyCatBella: First of all, drop the lingo. This isn't a trial. Second, since May 13th the page went through 150~ revisions. Am I supposed to keep up with a minor linguistic change? François Robere (talk) 21:08, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Apparently Bella thinks restoring an RS to an article and correcting a source quote she changed is a "massive assault" mandating a retaliation . WP:BATTLEGROUND, anyone? François Robere (talk) 22:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth, @Beyond My Ken: I would very much appreciate more administerial involvement on that topic, and I said and asked as much in several ANI/AE cases. That topic is toxic, and Misplaced Pages doesn't seem to have a solution. And no - a global block that will indiscriminately punish editors, and leave dozens of articles damaged, is not the way to do it. We have over 500 active admins - surely there's one who's willing to take that up? François Robere (talk) 14:52, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

On sourcing (I'm not collecting {{diff}}s, so these should suffice):

• The Winstone book User:E-960 is referring to above seems to have been included based on a reading of a review . The reasons I removed are explained in this thread, where the user twice accuses me of "forum shopping" because I opened the thread.
• Point #5 above refers to a blatant distortion of a source, performed by User:GizzyCatBella several times .
• Here's a list of sources brought to one discussion, where I marked the sentences that were quoted by the editor along with their surrounding text, to demonstrate "cherry-picking" (in some cases in blatant contradiction to what the source actually says). It's followed by some short notes on misattribution and unreliability of sources follow.
• Here's a discussion on whether Facebook posts by the Polish ambassador to Switzerland are RS on WWII history.
• Here's a discussion on a source that's so bad, it has only two reviews on Google Books: from the subject's children, urging readers not to believe it.

Just a few recent examples (plus one not so recent, but major). How many hours have we spent on these discussions? François Robere (talk) 17:31, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement in excess of 500 words removed (admin action). Sandstein 11:47, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@NeilN: Two questions:

1. What's considered "consensus" for the purpose of this restriction? I would usually think a discussion is enough, but you previously expressed the position that a formal procedure like an RfC is required. If that's the case, then we'll be seeing a lot of RfCs - which can itself result in a "disruptive editing" complaint.
2. Would massive reverts count for this purpose? In other words - if I make a series of small changes and someone reverts all of them at once, do I have to assume they object all of them? I suggest requiring editors who perform a mass reversal to explain their reasoning on the TP in addition to the edit summary.

One final note: This is not a common restriction on Misplaced Pages, so I suggest making clear that editors new to the page are to be warned before having sanctions imposed on them. François Robere (talk) 15:40, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by GizzyCatBella

I would like to clarify - “3 Change #1" FR is using as an excuse. In that past I did dispute the word “fighters" replacing it with word "soldiers" that had been reverted today by FR. here It is not a “linguistic mistake,” but a fundamental change and accused is well aware of that. GizzyCatBella (talk) 20:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

In response to Icewhiz comment below --->

This:

• “Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion) If in doubt, don’t make the edit."

Does NOT say:

• “Consensus required: all editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits made after May 26 that have been challenged (via reversion) If in doubt, don’t make the edit."

So no, your line of defending FR is wrong.GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:21, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@François Robere We have to stick to the new rule, so what makes you unique? And also, it just "happened" that you used the exact word "fighters" again? Having the alternatives such as combatants for example or partisans or even belligerents/warriors? No, it seems to me that you knew precisely what you are doing.GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@NeilN:,@Ealdgyth,@Sandstein: please take your time to read this, it may help you correctly assess the situation and help to understand what VM meant by saying "blatant misrepresentation and manipulation". I'll stick to very latest interactions with Icewhiz but comparable circumstances go back 2-3 months.

A quick background first: In occupied Poland, the Nazis imposed a death penalty for every Pole helping Jews, including the family of the helper. This information is universally acknowledged by anyone familiar with Polish WW2 history and easily referenced. Data about the death penalty imposed on Poles in the article about Nobel peace prize nominee Irena Sendler was there for years and read like this:

• "This work was done at huge risk (helping Jews), —since October 1941—giving any kind of assistance to Jews in German-occupied Poland was punishable by death, not just for the person who was providing the help but also for their entire family or household"

On June 3rd, I noticed a tag requesting reference for that statement so I went ahead and inserted the citations trying to match the exact wording. ,, (I have read one of these books) So what happened next? Icewhiz removed not only the sources I supplied but also the entire information with edit this summary:

• "POV pushing. SYNTH - coverage not on Sendler. First source is cited twice (duplicate) and doesn't mention Sendler in this context. The second source is about the death penalty for printing newspapers, not helping Jews."

Icewhiz then commented on talk page :

• "Misuse of sources - In what appears as a POVish hagiography, the following was entered into the article, the google-books search term rather betraying the intent. The first source, cited twice for some reason, is not about Sendler - so it is WP:SYNTH. The second source mentions the death penalty for printing newspapers, not for helping Jews, and is thus not connected to the sentence at all."

Well, so I restored the information and attached 5 further references ,,,, plus an image of an actual German poster from 1941 announcing such policy. All in English, all published books by historians, clearly backing the information.

• Give me some hours @NeilN: to think about it please, I'm not as swift as you are fellows. Thanks. GizzyCatBella (talk) 00:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

  I think it’s clear to me.GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement in excess of 500 words removed (admin action). Sandstein 11:49, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Icewhiz

As presented, not a violation, as the prior diffs presented (some over a month ago) were prior to the "consensus required" provision being added. FR's edits were not challenged by reversion since the consensus required provision was enacted on 26 May following an edit warring report filed against E-960.Icewhiz (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Further note, following being challenged by reversion, FR took it to talk.Icewhiz (talk) 21:12, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I will also note, that E-960 has -

1. Supported content (Revision as of 15:18, 25 May 2018) about Jewish actions against Poles sourced to a blog by Jan Bodakowski - a fellow who has "interesting" views on feminism and who has received some coverage in research literature in regards to a blog post on "Jewish Nazism" Uprzedzenia w Polsce (Prejudice in Poland).
2. Revision as of 09:48, 2 June 2018 - suggests inserting content based on a WP:QS WP:SPS (described as propagating a myth and anti-Jewish tract in RSes who mentioned this briefly) - of an example of " Jewish agent provocateurs, and simple snitches" - based on the words of a Polish policeman, who collaborated with the Nazis, who was convicted for murder - and who attempted to justify his act murder with this claim regarding the victim prior to being convicted.

Repeatedly suggesting/promoting such sources raises serious NPOV/CIR questions.Icewhiz (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

In regards to GCB stmt above - if FR broke the consensus required provision on material that was apparently disputed between the two of them over a month ago (prior to this provision being enacted) - then E-960 broke the consensus required provision when he reverted FR today - Revision as of 16:12, 2 June 2018 and Latest revision as of 16:16, 2 June 2018 - as the content was challenged by reversion by FR.Icewhiz (talk) 21:42, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Some examples of the use of WP:SPS / blogs / questionable sources by GizzyCatBella:

1. - opinion piece or blog on defunct web site (but is available on personal website of author) - connecting a BLP to Russian agents, and communist secret police collaborators. No engagement on Talk:Peter Vogel (banker).Icewhiz (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
2. - letter published on Glaukopis website after History refused to publish it. Challenged as BLPSOURCES, and reverted. See subsequent BLP/n discussion.
3. - Use of self-published documents by Mark Paul. See RSN on Kurek and Paul, and subsequent RfC opened on this matter.
4. - iUniverse book by Ewa Kurek. See RSN on Kurek and Paul. The statement (Poland being the only country with...), incidentally, is false and has been demonstrated (refutation by examples from other sources) as such in discussions with GCB going back to April at least - discussion in Talk:Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland, in the RSN discussion linked, in Talk:The_Holocaust_in_Poland, following attempts to insert this on Revision as of 05:57, 11 May 2018, Revision as of 16:15, 11 May 2018 - the same content (more or less), the same false claim - was inserted into three different articles (The Holocaust in Poland, Collaboration in German-occupied Poland‎, and Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust). over a space of a month - each time necessitating a new discussion on why the sources weren't appropriate (self published, or other reasons) and a refutation of the content itself.
5. - restoring references to personal website of Anna Poray. See BLP/n discussion (for Zegota), and Fringe noticeboard discussion for the article on Poray herself that was up for AfD.
6. revdelled 22 May 08:10 (so no link) - restored copy-pasted content from Mark Paul's WP:SPS.
7. - use of "Haf Books" - a young company founded in 2017 that doesn't seem to have done much else. The book itself is very heavy on graphics and illustrations.

Icewhiz (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement in excess of 500 words removed (admin action). Sandstein 11:49, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• @NeilN: the page level restriction is mostly clear to me - though it is unclear to me (having avoided for the most part any editing on AP2 consensus required pages) - just how far back challenged (via reversion) goes (Obviously if I made the edit, it gets reverted, then I can't put it back in.... Does this apply to edits made over a month ago, possibly by someone else (that I might not be aware of - this page had a lot of back and forth I was not involved with))? I haven't edited the article itself since the restriction, I did open an RfC on the issue that was disputed late May.Icewhiz (talk) 14:52, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Is anyone keeping count of the AE actions brought related to Germany and Poland in WWII, generally with the same cast of characters? And this is despite the fact that there are already discretionary sanctions in place which cover this subject area (i.e. ARBEE). Is it possible that the number of AE complaints would be lessened if administrators started to take advantage of the additional powers they have under discretionary sanctions to help quell disruption? I am in general a supporter of the work done by our admins, but I think that they need to step up their games in this area, and do so quickly. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:14, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Ealdgyth

Unfortunately, I'm too involved in the area to take admin action (even though my editing has been very minor), but I'd like to note that there is a lot of usage of self-published and non-mainstream sources that definitely needs looking into. There is also quite a lot of personalizing of disputes and casting aspersions against other editors. While it probably isn't yet to the point of "ban them all" ... it's rapidly approaching that point. Certainly, there is little incentive for non-involved editors or admins to wade into this to give opinions, because the tone of editing by those most heavily involved is so poor. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:16, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

E-960 - my statement was in general across the entire editing area, in response to Beyond My Ken's statement above. And, as an aside, I'm a she. I'll just note that this sort of instant-accusation/jump on the other editor is an excellent illustration of why third party uninvolved editors and admins are likely avoiding the area of German, Polish, and Jewish interactions in World War II. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@NeilN: - I'd prefer not to say "sides", but rather there are some users definitely using too many SPSs and they do tend to edit from one viewpoint at times. But, not all of the editors from that viewpoint necessarily are trying to use SPSs, but all sides tend to be doing entirely too much "editing by google search", if you know what I mean. There's also a lot of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH happening, where one incident in history is being used to generalize about an entire aspect of history, without actually having sources that make that generalization. There's a lot of hyperbole, a lot of aspersions, and, yes, it's toxic. The whole topic is complex and subject to a lot of real world angst, so it behooves us to be especially careful and discuss from the best sources, rather than internet web sites, self-published sources, and sources that are generally not in the mainstream of academic thought. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:14, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll point out I don't read Polish so I've stayed out of evaluating Polish language web sources - no matter who has brought them to the table. Yeah, I can use Google Translate, but too much nuance is lost so I've stayed away from those sources ... which all editors seem to use a bit too much instead of academic sources. We really should be avoiding news reports in any language as a source in this area - there is so much academic writing on the topic that it's hard enough to master that. And I'll reiterate - the ideal method of editing should be to ... read the foundational academic sources. Even a Google Scholar search is no substitute for reading entire sources, so that the background isn't lost. I'm afraid that too many folks editing in this area do not appear to be even trying to do that background reading. (And I'll freely admit I'm still working on it... just got in several more books on the subject area ... am trying to get through them in my copious free time.) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:50, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement in excess of 500 words removed (admin action). Sandstein 11:50, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by slatersteven

As an involved ed I agree with the above. It is becoming very toxic over there. It is not just one ed or one side, and I feel at this state that any action that singles out one ed it what is a content dispute will be unfair. I think therefore (I cannot remember where it was said to be take last time AE I thunk) this needs to be looked as a general issue now. It is getting to the stage where it is hard to tell what is being argued over, and DS have not really solved the problem.Slatersteven (talk) 13:37, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

To answer NeilN's question: the issue is not the use of questionable sources, as it is blatant misrepresentation and manipulation of sources. The source may be reliable. But Icewhiz in particular, just keeps claiming that they say what they don't say.

Here's one example, which is straight up, serious BLP violation. This is on Marek Jan Chodakiewicz:

In this edit March 21, 2018, Icewhiz added the text:

In 2018, Chodakiewicz warned that the 50 year anniversary of March 1968 events would be used by American Jews to "launch another anti-Polish campaign of hatred".

He provided four sources: , , and .

Two of these sources are right/far-right publications (fronda.pl and prawy.pl). I don't know what the other two are. This is strange, since Icewhiz keeps insisting that he only wants to remove "fringe" and "far right" and "nationalist" sources. Yet here he is ADDING exactly these kinds of sources. To a BLP. Why? Because he wants to make the BLP subject look bad, so he's got no qualms about using obviously non-RS, ideologically suspect sources that he claims to abhor.

Two of these sources (fronda.pl and tysol.pl) are really the same text, an article written by Chodakiewicz. The third (pch24.pl) is mostly also a reprint of this article.

NONE of these sources say ANYTHING about "American Jews". I expect AE admis don't read Polish, but this can be verified by searching the articles for "Ameri" or "USA". It doesn't appear. What Chodakiewicz says is that "western media run by neo-Stalinists" and Polish "post-communists" will launch this campaign. Yeah, Chodakiewicz is right wing, and thinks western and Polish leftists unfairly attack Poland. But that's a far cry from saying that "American Jews will attack Poland", which is what Icewhiz put into the article.

This claim does appear in the fourth source, prawy.pl in the headline. But this is a far-right, anti-semitic, publication which misuses Chodakiewicz's article for its own ends. Why is Icewhiz using a far-right, anti-semitic, clearly unreliable source - while at the same time claiming hypocritically in other places that his goal is only to remove such sources - in a BLP?????? Because it helps him push his POV and attack this particular living person.

So we have a combination of the use of blatantly unreliable sources by Icewhiz, with a misrepresentation of sources. To be perfectly clear, I have no love for Chodakiewicz, he's a right wing Trump supporter and ideologically very far from myself. But just the sheer obnoxiousness, dishonesty and hypocrisy, not to mention the violation of Misplaced Pages policies, with which Icewhiz approaches this subject pisses me off and gets my Misplaced Pages panties in a twist. Nobody who thinks that these kinds of tricks and stunts are ok should be editing Misplaced Pages, and certainly not a controversial topic such as this one.

This is an obnoxious BLP violation and the fact that Icewhiz calls it a "mild form of OR" (cuz you know, falsely accusing someone of anti-semitism is just "mild OR"!) aggravates the violation of policies.

Statement in excess of 500 words removed (admin action). Sandstein 11:51, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman

I've been involved in these disputes, specifically around the use of works by Mark Paul, whose academic credentials are unknown. He seems to be exclusively published by "KPK - Toronto", which is the Polish Educational Foundation in Canada, an advocacy group. There was an RSN discussion about Paul (RSN:Paul & Kurek), but certain editors, such as GizzyCatBella and Tatzref were not convinced. To the point that

• I inquired with Tatzref about his affiliation with KPK, to which he did not respond: KPK Toronto.
• I asked GCB to elaborate on the credentials and views of Mark Paul. The response to the first question was not convincing ("Some think he is a monk") & there was no answer to the second question.

My conclusion is that Paul's views are borderline fringe, yet his works are aggressively promoted throughout Misplaced Pages. I support the suggestion by NeilN here. For example, some of the disputes have been around Zegota, the Polish underground organisation to aid Jews. There's an English-language source available, by Gunnar S. Paulsson, Secret City: The Hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945, which mentions Zegota 30+ times. And that's just from a cursory search.

In addition, the works of many Polish scholars have been translated into English by this point, such as The Warsaw Ghetto: A Guide to the Perished City, Yale University Press, 2009 by Barbara Engelking and Jacek Leociak (800 pages). The bottom line is that many high-quality sources on these topics are available. Why not use them, instead of arguing about questionable, self-published and / or fringe sources? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• @NeilN: there's an essay that may be helpful: Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (history), specifically the section: What is historical scholarship? If this guidance were implemented in this area, it would cut down on much of the conflict and time-consuming discussions / RfCs. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:04, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Tatzref

Since Tatzref's name has been invoked, one must look carefully at and assess the activities of the invokers. There appears to be concerted, in tandem, ideologically driven enforcement activity going on involving the issue of Polish-Jewish relations. For example, the “Bielski partisans” article, where Icewhiz, K.e.coffman and Pinkbeast keep removing an acclaimed book by Bogdan Musial, a professional historian with academic credentials, yet retain books by journalists (Duffy) and freelance historians (Levine). Why? According to Icewhiz Musial's book is a “fringe work”. According to Pinkbeast, "it's part of the same POV-pushing exercise”. The impugned book is Sowjetische Partisanen 1941–1941: Mythos und Wirklichkeit published by Ferdinand Schöningh (2009), a highly regarded German publishing house. According to Yehuda Bauer, Musial's book is “a most important contribution” to the history of the war, the Soviet partisans, and Polish-Jewish partisan relations in Belorussia. (Yad Vashem Studies, vol. 38, no. 2). Dutch historian Karel Berkhoff stated that the book will likely remain a comprehensive description of partisan warfare in Belarus due to its large source base. This is “fringe”? Similar deletions of references to information found in Marek Chodakiewicz's The Massacre in Jedwabne, of primary sources, and of an authorized statement by prosecutor Radoslaw Ignatiew occurred in the Jedwabne pogrom article. Chodakiewicz's book is one of a very few (of very many publications on the topic) that was mentioned by Peter Longerich, a leading German Holocaust historian, in his 2010 book Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews (Oxford University Press). In the article Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944-1946, text referring to the findings of a pioneering recent study property reclaiming under the 1945 law on abandoned property, Klucze i Kasa: O mieniu żydowskim w Polsce pod okupacją niemiecką i we wczesnych latach powojennych 1939–1950, published by the Polish Center for Holocaust Research and edited by Jan Grabowski and Dariusz Libionka, was also removed. Do such comments and activities have any validity or credibility? Are they supposed to dictate the content of Misplaced Pages? What is the affiliation of these users? How are they connected? They appear to be pushing the same agenda. As Misplaced Pages points out: "Citing WP:FRINGE in discussions and edit summaries is often done by POV pushers in an attempt to demonize viewpoints which contradict their own."Tatzref (talk) 16:12, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Result concerning François Robere

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Pinging NeilN as the admin who decided on these restrictions. Sandstein 07:28, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Icewhiz: Please comment about Volunteer Marek's allegations of you using unreliable sources and misrepresenting sources. Sandstein 18:31, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• Just noting that I am not reading the "Additional comments" by the filer because the combination of an aggressive tone with ALL-CAPS SCREAMING and a wall of text gives me a headache. The request is borderline disruptive. Sandstein 18:35, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
• Taking into considerations recent submissions I am of the view that the whole complex of issues involving POV and sourcing in Poland-related articles is too complicated to address at the editor level here. This seems to be a mixture of good-faith content disputes and possible conduct problems on the part of several editors. I'd support a page-level restriction as outlined by NeilN below. Sandstein 07:48, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Ealdgyth: With respect to article content, is it your opinion that both sides are using questionable sourcing or is it mainly limited to one side? --NeilN 14:48, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Before I read Ealdgyth's latest post on the subject I was mulling over adding restrictions analagous to WP:MEDRS. That is, requiring the use of higher quality sources. This and related articles document decades-old past history. There's no reason why editors need to go to glorified blog posts or questionable partisan publications. I'm aware of François Robere's sometimes problematic editing in this area but as seen from past AE reports, they're not alone. So, two proposed restrictions:

• Only the highest quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers.

Independent of this:

• Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans.

--NeilN 18:29, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• I agree and would consider limiting this to English-language academic sources. A recurring problem in this topic area seems to be a reliance on fringe sources. Sandstein 18:33, 3 June 2018 (UTC) – To be clear, I don't think that Polish-language sources are inherently unreliable, but they can't be evaluated by most admins here, including me. That impedes arbitration enforcement insofar as source reliability is concerned. Sandstein 18:48, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Sandstein: I am sympathetic to your sentiments and share them, along with the concern that source misrepresentations will try to be passed off as "differences in translations". However I won't personally impose a restriction that supersedes a policy, guideline, or BRD (as opposed the strengthening them) without prior evidence that it's needed and I don't think we're there yet. I think we should just reiterate WP:NOENG ("English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance") and stipulate that we will go to Google Translate if we really have to if source misrepresentation is alleged. --NeilN 20:12, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• I've cut down all the statements to the allowed maximum of 500 words because this is not the forum in which to address all the possible sourcing and conduct problems in this topic area. That would probably need a full ArbCom case. Limited to the specific conduct at issue, I myself would take no action but leave it to NeilN whether he considers his restriction violated and wants to take action, and whether he wants to impose an additional sourcing restriction such as the one proposed above. Sandstein 12:05, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@François Robere, E-960, GizzyCatBella, and Icewhiz: and other editors: Is there anything about this you find unclear? That is, an edit (new addition, removal of long-standing material, change to existing material) can be done once and if it's challenged, no one can make the same or similar edit without gaining consensus? Also, you understand the more extensive your edit, the greater the likelihood someone will take issue with part of it and revert the whole thing? --NeilN 14:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Icewhiz Per my note, if anyone adds something then anyone else can challenge it before four to six weeks are up and require consensus for the addition. After that time period, if anyone removes it then anyone else can challenge it and require consensus for the deletion. Yes, this places an extra burden on editors but it also prevents tag team edit wars and promotes article stability and discussion.
• François Robere 1) A formal RFC is not always required but two editors agreeing and one editor disagreeing in a conversation spanning two hours isn't going to be accepted as consensus either. Listen to each other and I suggest you find an editor most of you trust to be neutral (MelanieN seems to play that part on Trump articles) that can help guide you as to how consensus can be found (not what consensus is, but what level of discussion is needed to find it). 2) If someone has done a "massive" revert then you've done a "massive" change. In this case, you can open discussion with, "X, you've reverted all my changes. Do you object to all of them or only specific ones?" and go from there.
• As to warnings, the standard discretionary sanctions notifications should suffice. I hope editors will be kind to each other and give an editor who has a good or empty record a chance to self-revert before reporting them. The American Politics editors, while disagreeing vehemently on many, many things, usually extend this courtesy to each other if the editor hasn't abused this courtesy in the past. --NeilN 16:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Netoholic

Talatastan

יניב_הורון

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning יניב_הורון

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

יניב_הורון (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#General_1RR_restriction :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 20:47, 2 June 2018 Partial revert of this, specifcally the removal of (including food and medicine)
2. 18:04, 3 June 2018 revert of this

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Blocked for 72 hours for violating discretionary sanctions in the topic
2. Blocked for 48 hours for violating 500/30 rule in topic area

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months here
• Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, still on this page at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Talatastan

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Straightforward 1RR violation. Note the user has still not commented on the talk page for the revert on the food and medicine (see here)

@Sandstein:, the user still has not commented on the talk page about his or her repeated reversions, and says on his or her user talk so what about that. Almost every edit made by this user is a revert and there is nearly no talk page justification for any of them. I think a reminder that they need to justify their reverts would be useful. nableezy - 18:05, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning יניב_הורון

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by יניב_הורון

Sorry, I'm not aware of "partial reverts". Obviously it wasn't my intention to revert this. I simply removed this small information which seemed superflous and POV. Everybody can see it was an honest mistake (this, on the other hand, was an intentional and full revert). In any case, with a simple message in my talk page explaining the problem and asking me to revert myself would have been enough. It's not necessary to make a report at AE because of something that can be easily solved with dialogue.--יניב הורון (talk) 17:25, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@Huldra: Yeah, I also knew this was going to happen again. That's because people like you keep making lousy reports to get rid of a competitor. Unfortunately such behaviour is very common in ARBPIA. BTW, everybody can see the so-called "partial revert" was not intentional or motivated by bad faith. It's pure nonsense, just like your last report against me (when I didn't break any wiki rule or policy, remember?). As a matter of fact, I'm not the user edit-warring in this article, and definitely I'm not the only one challenging your extremely POV content. But for some people is easier to make reports than debate. I can't understand how it's possible to make unjustified reports at AE without consequences for the accuser.--יניב הורון (talk) 22:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@NeilN: I'm not making mistakes on a regular basis. Please, look at my contributions and see if "I'm not here to contribute" like they say (which is nothing more than a subjective opinion to begin with).--יניב הורון (talk) 22:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Pay attention to your own edits before judging others. As I explained you here, you broke third ARBPIA bullet. As you can see, everybody makes mistakes. Make sure you don't do it again.--יניב הורון (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Davidbena: Not only that, Nableezy already made three different reports to block or ban users in just two days for minor violations or no violations at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think such behaviour shows much willingness to hold a dialogue. It looks like wikilawyering activism. I understand I made an honest mistake by not realizing that removing two or three words from an entire paragraph could be considered a "partial revert" (not to mention he didn't give me the chance to revert myself!). But if I perceive another user made a mistake regarding ARBPIA restrictions (which is not very difficult to make among literally thousands of edits), I leave them a warning or polite message in the talk page first. I don't rush to AE and see if I can get rid of another editor who doesn't share my political views. Is it possible that sometimes the user who is making the report will be sanctioned? I mean, someone can make reports against you all the time for minor things (that MANY people do) and claim "See? Just the fact that me and my friends made x reports against him in a couple of months proves that he is a monster" .--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 13:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Nishidani

Hasn't this user been reported for vagrant editing before? As far as I encounter him he appears to read down a number of editor's contribs and then revert many at sight without an intelligent edit summary, or indeed one that shows he hasn't even read the source. Just today see this. He's not here to build anything or collaborate constructively, and pleading for 'honest mistakes' when you turn a deaf ear to requests for an explanation is a contradiction in behavioural terms. Nishidani (talk) 15:10, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

OtterAm:'the usual gang of partisan editors' (only those who keep a keen eye on Palestinian matters are 'partisan') You don't have to assume good faith, I guess, but for the record I have better things to do that comb daily through other editors' contributions. I made a note here because the editor in question reverted with a false edit summary an edit I made. I can't help noticing that. In Yaniv's favour is the fact that, on my page, he notified me I had (inadvertently) broken the ARBPIA3 rule, a thing some militants would have immediately brought to AE. I still think his editing bears scrutiny, since most of the revert justifications are subjective, rooted in dislike, and not soundly based on policy. This has been consistent pattern, and at a minimum he needs some sort of warning apropos.Nishidani (talk) 10:05, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by TheGracefulSlick

Sandstein a quick glance at this editor's talk page shows they have been making these "honest mistakes" since March. What makes you so sure they will suddenly self-remedy their behavior?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

OtterAM, six. That is how many times this editor has been warned or blocked for edit warring or violating ARBPIA since March. This does not even include the times he just removes text and fails to engage in discussion entirely, as per WP:BRD. Yet, in your totally unbiased assessment you believe undiscussed reverts and edit warring is healthy for the I/P area? Oh boy.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 15:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• In case anyone doubts the numbers:

1. edit warring at Dennis Pranger on 3 March
2. violated Arab-Israeli remedy on 11 March
3. 1RR violation at 2018 Gaza border protests on 31 March
4. edit warred at the page above, again on 13 April; blocked for 96 hours
5. broke 1RR at Iran-Israel proxy conflict on 12 May
6. edit warring at Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party on 31 May

• GoldenRing I urge you and other admins to consider the long-term behavioral pattern.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 16:05, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Huldra

I reported him about 6 weeks ago: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive231#יניב_הורון...User:Huon prediction that we would end up here or at AN/I again soon turned out to be 100% correct, Huldra (talk) 21:13, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Davidbena

From what I see by the current diffs, the issues at hand merely involve "content dispute" and should be resolved on the relevant Talk-Pages. Moreover, Yaniv Huron should also take greater responsibility when reverting, to make sure that he does not infringe upon the 1RR rule in Palestinian-Israeli articles. No need for punitive measures.Davidbena (talk) 23:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

One more thing: Whenever a request for discretionary sanctions is brought before this board, it is my view that the acting and non-involved judges should examine the ulterior motives behind such a complaint. I am of the impression here that some of the editors complaining against the new editor may actually feel "threatened" by his posts, due to some spatial dissonance that is often found between editors of different political affiliations and backgrounds. Our job, as editors, is to make good and qualitative, collaborative editing. Anything short of this would, in my view, be detrimental to our encyclopedia. In short, all persons here should be encouraged to work together in WP:Good Faith.Davidbena (talk) 13:40, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@GoldenRing:, the essence of this complaint differs from the one made in April, when Yaniv was blocked 96 hours for edit warring. This complaint, however, involves merely a revert or partial revert on a restricted page that may have been unintentional on his part. Generally speaking, Yaniv's edits are constructive and good, and we ought not to discredit him for his constructive edits. .Davidbena (talk) 00:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by OtterAM

It appears that the usual gang of partisan editors is combing through יניב הורון's edits to try to find anything they can to get him kicked out. If you look at Nableezy's block log, you can see what I mean about the long-term partisan edit warring over the same issues stretching back to 2010.

Obviously different editors come to Misplaced Pages with different points of view. However, it would be more productive for different editors to work together to build an encyclopedia, rather than expending their energies trying to get each other thrown out.

From יניב הורון's explanation above, it's pretty clear cut that this was simply a mistake. Given the large number of edits that יניב הורון has made recently, the majority of which are quite good, it would be hard to avoid occasionally make mistakes like this. OtterAM (talk) 23:28, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: I for one think this topic benefits from יניב הורון's presence. The edits in question don't seem to be edit waring, so much as a mistake. I've perused יניב הורון's contributions, and most of it helps to preserve the encyclopedic quality of Misplaced Pages. Nableezy has recently been dragging a bunch of editors to WP:AE over relatively minor infractions - however he/she and the other editors on his/her side seem equally likely to make mistakes. OtterAM (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein: Just a typical example of an edit that keeps Misplaced Pages encyclopedia-like: ]. Here יניב הורון's keeps Misplaced Pages's treatment of a fringe theory "the Khazar hypothesis" in line with the guidelines. יניב הורון does a lot of reverts that remove stuff like this, which can accumulate in articles on such topics at an alarming rate. OtterAM (talk) 15:44, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Debresser

Partial reverts are sometimes controversial. An edit can be made as a simple improvement to the text, and turn out to be a partial revert. Especially in view of the fact that the usual camp of editors is reporting this, I'd keep it to a warning to be more careful in the future. Debresser (talk) 04:48, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Result concerning יניב_הורון

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• In view of the statement by יניב_הורון I would close this request with no action, trusting that יניב_הורון will make no more such mistakes in the future. Sandstein 17:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• I haven't examined the user's history in this regard, and would not oppose sanctions by admins who consider them warranted. Sandstein 15:20, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• יניב_הורון, it seems you are making these kinds of mistakes on a regular basis? --NeilN 20:09, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• If this was a first-time mistake, I'd certainly argue for leniency. When the same user was blocked for 96 hours in April for a similar mistake, I'm starting to wonder whether the topic would be better off without them for a bit. GoldenRing (talk) 09:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Debresser

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Darkfrog24

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Darkfrog24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:04, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Initially topic banned from quotation marks, later all style issues.

WP:AE/Archive188#Dicklyon_and_Darkfrog24, logged at

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_enforcement_log#Article_titles_and_capitalisation_2

But the best summary of this multi-chapter story is probably this comment But the best summary of this multi-chapter story is probably here

Administrator imposing the sanction

Thryduulf (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

There is currently no enforcing admin; the initial enforcing admin quit and no successor was appointed. I have notified the initial enforcing admin nonetheless. If his wishes are still to be left alone, please respect that.

Statement by Darkfrog24

I want to rejoin my colleagues at WT:MOS and resume work on writing-related articles. I've also got some essays that have been on hold because they cite examples from articles that deal with style issues. Over the past several months, I've updated the Euryarchaota subcategory, earned a barnstar, done some work at 3O and WP:RSN, and helped compose articles that made In the News and Did You Know, in addition to Wikinews. I am currently in the weird position of being allowed to make corrections to any article's grammar and punctuation but not to explain those corrections if asked.

I also want you to acknowledge that this punishment was never necessary. I didn't do any of the things I was accused of. I'll address any specific one, but the original complaint violated the length limit by over 9500 words after a previous attempt got the accuser boomeranged, so it'll have to be point-on-request or we'll be here all month. I wasn't ready for a case that size, and I can believe your colleagues weren't either—one of the admins later said something to the effect that he didn't even read the complaint—but I want my name cleared. For now, just the big ones: When I asked the then-enforcing admin why I was t-banned, he said, "Because you falsified an ENGVAR claim—you lied when you said British and American punctuation styles are different, just to make trouble" exact words here. No I didn't: Among the many sources that address this, here is an easy-to-read chart and formal style book. Whether you think I'm right or wrong, I am absolutely not fabricating anything. There are times when you can get punished on Misplaced Pages for saying water is wet, but "Water isn't wet; you made that up!" does not benefit the project. But what if the admin didn't really mean it like that? My best other guess as to why I am being punished is what SlimV said, that the volume of my and the accuser's and a third party's conversations was the actual problem.

• This was the first I'd heard that anything like that could even affect third parties, let alone bother them.
• My relationship with the accuser has changed. Back then, I thought we were two people enjoying a spirited discussion about something we both liked. I no longer think so. Our interactions since then have been few. He has been ordered to leave me the hell alone, and, mostly, he has.
• Five years ago, I adopted a personal policy of not initiating a discussion about lifting Misplaced Pages's ban of American punctuation unless I had a previously undiscussed source or other evidence to present. Repeat: I have not initiated such a discussion since 2013. The fact that other Wikieditors who don't know me or each other keep doing so is not misconduct on anyone's part. I've been staying away from WP:MoS entirely, so for all I know, WP:LQ has already been replaced.

If the enforcing admin was being serious/literal, then lift the topic ban and expunge my record because I can prove I didn't do it. If he wasn't, lift it for the reasons provided. If you feel the need for some kind of transitional period, then lift it for article space for now (allow me to return to articles about writing) with an automatic total lift (allow me to return to Wikiproject MoS) in two months. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:04, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

You want to know how I've changed? SMcCandlish is trying to bait me into writing a long, boring post, refuting every fib he's telling one by one so that everyone's eyes glaze over. I'm not going to fall for it this time. If any admin asks me to, I will refute SMC's post in whole or in part. Just allot me the necessary time. He's betting that you'll skim his post without looking into what actually happened.

I am not the first person he sicced with a false misconduct complaint after disagreeing with him at WT:MoS. The fact that I defended that other guy may be one reason why he targeted me in 2015. When he can't convince someone that he's right, he abuses the disciplinary system.

Dicklyon, Tony1 and SMcCandlish are three MoS regulars who are in favor of keeping the British-only rule. They are not unbiased or representative of the crowd at WP:MoS. I've done some okay work with all of them over the years. I request permission to neutrally publicize this appeal, call in character witnesses, or both so that you get more than just their side of the story. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:52, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven:, if that's really the problem, it has such a simple solution: Just tell me. I have had to dig through reams of disinformation to figure out why those admins made the decision they did. If the real problem is that none of my guesses are right, if you know something I don't, then do Misplaced Pages a service and state it plainly here and now. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused by all this talk of "relitigation." This is the forum for appeals and it's my appeal date. What exactly about this is supposed to be disruptive?

As to why I've brought up the original accusations: It's because they are too personal and too foul and requiring me to live with them forever is too much to ask. I never lied. I never harassed anyone. The person I was accused of harassing wrote me a thank-you note. I'm concerned that if I say anything that could be read as a confession to any part of that lie-fest back in 2016, it will be read as a confession to the whole thing, and then it'll be used to attack other people at WT:MoS. You should not ask me to pretend that I am an evil person just to get the punishment lifted.

So can anyone here say, "Darkfrog24, we acknowledge that you were accused of battlegrounding, lying, X, Y, and Z. We took a look and we find that they are completely false. But we still have concerns about accusations A, B and C. Can you explain your actions here?" Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Dlohcierekim and Thryduulf: I cannot address all the accusations that were made against me and keep it short. It was twenty pages long. The accuser really should have been told to leave and come back with something shorter, but we can't go back in time and change that now. So, Thryduulf, if you have any particular brick that you need me to show is as thin as a playing card, I will do it, but you do have to say. I also have a full point-by-point rebuttal to the whole thing but it is very long. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:22, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Dlocierekim:I was wondering what you were talking about with "Trump references" and I just saw I had the wrong link in there. It was supposed to be a link to SlimV's comment, the same one as below. I have no idea what that other link is or how it got mixed up in there. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: I was unblocked on the condition that I not disruptively refute the accusations, not that I never refute them at all or plead guilty or pretend that I did it. That accusation extended to actual real-world crimes and, on top of everything else, I'm concerned about being sued or arrested. If here at AE is not the designated place to appeal an arbitration enforcement sanction and get my name cleared, then just direct me to the correct part of Misplaced Pages. Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth and Goldenring: Painful as it is to hear that, I think what you're saying is actual progress. As for listening, I read every word of a SMcCandlish's twenty-page treatise about how disagreeing with SMcCandlish about quotation marks meant I was an evil person. Every. Damned. Word. There is no way to accurately describe that experience and stay within our civility rules. You should hope you never have to go through anything like that.

There is simply too much volume for me to just figure out which part you think is true. Do you actually think I'm lying when I say "British and American English quotation mark rules are different"? Do you actually think asking someone "Are you okay?" is gaslighting if I do it or that looking up someone else's sources and talking about them out counts as ignoring those sources? Because I was literally accused of all those things—that's not hyperbole, that was in there. Say you really think I did it I know where we stand.

Or, better yet, say that you don't. Say "Wow, parts of this complaint are real baloney. You know what? Darkfrog, we'll say on record that you didn't do any of this weird shit. There was no gaslighting, lying, POV-pushing or battlegrounding on your part. Here is the part I think is real."

I can't read your mind. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:05, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Thryduulf

@Sandstein: as noted in the appeal, I resigned from taking an active role regarding this sanction months ago. I did this because I did not have time to deal with the endless relitigation framed as clarification requests. Post my topic ban, she was blocked until she acknowledged she understood the reason she was topic banned and agreed to stop disruptively relitigating it. Appeals were declined by arbcom twice based on no evidence of understanding why the topic ban was placed, no acknowledgement that her actions were disruptive (none of the edit warring, the battlegrounding, or the relitigation), and a desire to carry on where she left off. This appeal is just more of the same. Either this is deliberate WP:IDHT or it is a severe case of WP:CIR.

At minium this appeal needs to be declined with prejudice, but I'd be very tempted to reblock indefintely under the same conditions as last time with no appeals permitted for 12 months. If an appeal is just more of the same, then the interval until the next would be doubled.

Darkfrog exhausted my patience long ago and so I do not intend to contribute further to this request. Thryduulf (talk) 09:09, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't going to post here again, but after DF24 left a message on my talk page saying she is "trying very hard to forgive ", I came to see what might have prompted that, and found only more evidence of just not understanding anything people are saying to her and more screeds against SMcCandlish.

Darkfrog24 in answer, again, to your bolded question: All of the accusations against you are real and have been backed up by evidence multiple times. For the avoidance of doubt that includes: gaslighting, lying, POV-pushing and battlegrounding.

@GoldenRing, NeilN, Dlohcierekim, Ealdgyth, and Sandstein: If I wasn't involved here in any way (although I am only involved in an administrative capacity) I would be issuing an indefinite block round about now for T-ban violations, CIR, NOTHERE and exhausting the community's patience. This to be appealable no sooner than 1 year, with the explicit note that appeals that do not exclusively address why the block is not needed now will be declined. I would also very strongly encourage that this be supplemented by an indef one-way interaction ban preventing Darkfrog24 from interacting with and/or commenting on or about SMcCandlish, this to be appealed no sooner than 12 months after any unblock. Thryduulf (talk) 15:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by User:Dicklyon

DF24's troubles escalated to an indef ban because of inability to hear or admit what she was doing wrong. That obviously persists in this appeal. WP:OFFER suggests that she should "Promise to avoid the behavior that led to the block/ban." By denying that such behavior ever existed, she is going the opposite direction. Dicklyon (talk) 14:43, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Also note that where she links "exact words here", no such words are to be found. WTF? Dicklyon (talk) 14:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Laser brain

Please lift these sanctions and let this editor get to whatever they want to be working on. If they go right back to litigating LQ and other disputes at WT:MOS, their behavior can be re-examined. I feel that they got caught in a quagmire of bureaucracy and a no-win situation. There's no need to continue punishing them. --Laser brain (talk) 15:17, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Yes, I read everything. I just think that, after a while, everyone (with the exception of full-time trolls and vandals) should be able to sort of "hit the reset button". They've clearly exhausted the patience of anyone who has the power to make it so, but I thought I'd register the opinion anyway. --Laser brain (talk) 13:33, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Tony1

I think a lot of the "colleagues" Darkfrog refers to were put off by her relentless and disruptive campaigns at style-guide talkpages, pursued with a battleground mentality. At least to me, she appeared to be determined to drive a wedge between what she sees as US style and other styles. This was very destabilising, coming after the site had spent many years developing a trans-Atlantic style guide—a tricky task requiring international collaboration and a willingness to engage in practical compromise. If MOS has had successes, this must surely be one of them. The German Misplaced Pages has an annual brawl over German vs Austrian varieties, I'm told, but rather less destructively; our MOS ended up being locked several times due to squabbles in which I believe Darkfrog was a protagonist. Tony (talk) 16:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

More relitigation and "trying to get justice", and dwelling on me in particular. No acceptance or recognition of why the bans and blocks were imposed. Same as in the previous rejected ARCA requests, and in the four nearly back-to-back AE reports, and all the argumentation with admins over the terms and reasons for the sanctions. It's Just an unbroken cycle of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. Literally nothing has changed in DF24's understanding or approach, despite a thick stack of stern warnings.

• 2017-12 Same projective accusations, while trying to appeal her indef (this was actually a TBAN violation). Same reason for this block and almost another.
• 2018-01 Claims MoS is (not was) " normal editing"; eager to get back into it. Feigns (really has?) confusion that she is allowed to muck with quotation marks, just not allowed to cite offsite sources for her changes. This bears no resemblance to any remedies in any of these actions (or common sense). Talking about MoS was another TBAN breach.

We're now deep into WP:CIR territory. It's a "long game" to return to her PoV stuff, as admins have suggested (e.g. ). Or it's a constitutional inability to accept things she doesn't agree with or like. Or DF24's ability to understand plain English is too poor to be constructive in MoS and punctuation matters. Any would be a CIR issue in and of itself, though that last one topically localized.

DF24 keeps claiming I've been administratively warned to leave her alone, and implying I'm harassing/stalking her. Total fiction.

• What actually happened: an admin suggested that others should stop talking about MoS/quotes stuff on her page ; so we did.
• We two had a couple of brief unrelated interactions after that, which stopped quickly due to her negative reactions.
• I let her know I'd blanked my evidence stack since it seemed to be a source of stress to her (see edit summary for prophetic words). Her angry response.
• I offered a retraction of and apology for something (which she'd demanded repeatedly – as well as in AE and ARCA). DF24 reacted negatively, with the "admins told you ..." fiction again . I emailed ArbCom about my peace-offering (not her response).
• No interactions since then (2017-09) until this AE.

WP:DR won't work if one party will brook no resolution. "Stay off my talk page" cannot be used to thwart DR attempts. I and some admins suggested a oneway IBAN before. This stuff is just really inappropriate, the more so the longer it goes on. If DF24 can continue to publicly focus on me, it'll be impossible for her to get out from under her self-made cloud. Editing under my real name, I'm starting to have concerns this might escalate offline, too, but that won't be a WP/ArbCom problem.

The request should be denied. Timespan until next appeal should be lengthened (2 years?), for everyone's sake. Forbid relitigation. And add a long-overdue, oneway IBAN. Whatever DF24 says next time, I don't see a return to style-related editing ever being viable for this editor, because of the activistic, deep-convictions nature of the behavioral problem. It's a stick the editor doesn't appear able to drop.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:08, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

PS: Word-limit extension requested. Since DF24 has (again) tried to put me on trial in her staid, I've had to both respond to her request, and defend myself. I got this to under 700 580 words.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:11, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

In response to Laser_brain: Did you actually read all the "I just still don't understand" stuff she's been doing with every admin who'll listen for 2+ years now? The remedies in this case are entirely preventative, not punitive. This is someone who really badly wants to get back to what got them into the hot water to begin with (even aside from the years of increasingly creepy projection about being harassed, which is a different issue). I can't think of a request like this which has been answered in the affirmative without a really detailed justification (about the specific good it will do for the project), a showing of understanding of the problem and how it will be avoided in the future, a plan to ensure that it won't, and clear evidence that the person is long "over" the matter, doing great work, and highly unlikely to be problematic in this regard again. Here, we have the exact opposite of all of these things. And this hijacking of the appeal to again make her WP:SYNTH arguments about "American" this and that – the route that led her into the boiling kettle in the first place – is not just self-defeating of the request, it's actually another TBAN violation.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:19, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh, something I missed: The "smoking gun" boomerang DF24 links to (because if I ever did anything wrong, everything I say must be ignored) – WP:AN lifted it (retroactively to when it was imposed) as an invalid admin action . And we all already know that, because she brings it up again and again and I point this out again and again. So, more WP:IDHT and WP:GAMING and WP:WINNING. When have we have enough of this?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:32, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Darkfrog24 has added: "SMcCandlish is trying to bait me into writing a long, boring post, refuting every fib he's telling one by one so that everyone's eyes glaze over." More strange, ad hominem handwaving; that's a literally impossible interpretation, since it cannot be the case that I want DF24 to relitigate in detail when my entire point (for a long time) is that she won't stop relitigating. More importantly, it's been the point of everything every arb and admin has been telling DF24 since 2016. I'm just going to ignore all the aspersions and accusations and conspiracy theories in her posts about me, above; I don't get particularly undies-bunched when clearly angry people say something that sounds angry. However, it does all clearly demonstrate the untoward dwelling on a personal vendetta half of the problem, and similar material has been why several of the administrative actions were taken against DF24 in this sorry saga. I've seen plenty of AE commenters get sanctioned on the spot for less hostile but equally unproven allegations as hers. This is a behavior case, not a MoS-as-topic content case; this could as easily have been about Game of Thrones or any other topic.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Laser brain: (well, @all, really) I guess the issue is that (long before now!) DF24 has gotten so close to what you might call "part-time but long-term troll" in effect if not intent that it's not clear what the difference is. Or, rather, it's not clear that the community needs to split that hair. The disruption level is just too much. The entire time, everyone's been telling her how to push the reset button and exactly where it is, but she just won't do it. She insists on being ruled blameless and getting to hanging someone else in her staid. That's not fixable.

"The accuser really should have been told to leave and come back with something shorter" – except I didn't actually present evidence in the AE. I said I had a bunch of unsorted evidence half-prepared for an RFARB, at another page. AE admins chose to examine it anyway and found it convincing. The diffs (i.e. the recorded DF24 behavior/actions), not anything I said about them. Second, DF24's still dwelling on the "gaslighting" thing, despite it being unconditionally retracted in a very conciliatory way. I.e., she's pestering AE to flush something already flushed, to force me to bend a knee I've already bent; it's some kind of public-shaming and vengeance/justice kick.

This is why I keep suggesting a "no more rants about SMcCandlish, no more relitigation, or your next appeal will be automatically hatted" solution. Just make it a condition that she cannot mention me (by name or otherwise) or the topic of the ban (including the evidence), only her own behavior and community perception of it and how it will change. Otherwise the 13th appeal in 2027 will look just like this one (or worse). I advocate a solution like this instead of blocks, because the blocks aren't working, the pattern is cyclical, yet the editor is productive in unrelated editing.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Darkfrog24

• I cannot help but note that the user still does not get what they did wrong, and seems to even by telling porkies about what happened (well at least what it was they were blocked for). I am not seeing any reason to grant this appeal, as the user looks as if they will go right back to the editing style that got them the block in the first place.Slatersteven (talk) 16:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• I agree with Slatersteven. Darkfrog24's appeal is a call for the annulment of the sanction, not a showing that it's no longer necessary. The evidence appears to show that it was necessary at the time it was imposed, and the statement of appeal itself indicates that there's been no change of view by Darkfrog24, meaning that the sanction remains necessary. I suggest that this appeal should be denied. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Darkfrog24

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• This appeal appears to be precisely the behaviour that the Tban is designed to prevent. Instead of a clear explanation of how the sanctioned behaviour will be avoided we have relitigation of the rights and wherefores of the ban. I also am unimpressed by the use of the appeal as a platform to attack DF's opponents in this area and on its own this should be enough to doom the appeal. While reasonable latitude has to be given around a Tban to allow someone to appeal it properly this seems so far beyond that line that I wonder whether a further sanction or block should follow. Spartaz 06:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• I haven't read the appeal in detail yet and would first like to hear from the sanctioning admin, Thryduulf. Sandstein 07:37, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Based on Thryduulf's comment and the previous AE thread I agree with Spartaz and would decline the appeal. Sandstein 09:21, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• I would also decline this appeal. It is simply relitigating the original topic ban and the editor was unblocked on the condition that they cease to do so. I would like to hear from Dlohcierekim, but I am sorely tempted to reimpose the block. GoldenRing (talk) 09:45, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• If the appeal had stuck to the first paragraph, I might have been inclined to support. But spending three-quarters of the appeal relitigating the topic ban really shows that they don't understand why they had issues and show no change necessitating relaxing the topic ban. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Nothing I've seen further changes my mind, and while I would not agree with a reblock, the behavior isn't helping that case. Drop the hyperbole. If you want to address the behavior going forward, say "I understand that my behavior was perceived as disruptive and I will not engage in such behavior again. If someone tells me I'm engaging in such behavior, even if I disagree, I will stop it to avoid disrupting others." The important thing is to understand that your argumentation style and discussion style on the subject was disruptive to other editors. You don't have to grovel, but pledging to listen when others tell you you're disruptive would go a long way. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear from your behavior here that you understand that yet. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:57, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Please do not ping me back here for more of the same "I was wronged, the decision was all wrong, other editors are out to get me" posts. Those sorts of posts make it clear you haven't taken anything on board, and are only going to lead to reblocking. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:09, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• reply from Dlohcierekim (If this is in the wrong place, please move it. Responding to the ping). Oh, dear God, so much text! Is this ArbCom? No wonder I've gone cross-eyed, and find it hard to get along. A momentary skim leads me to agree that this is yet another relitigation. The horse is so dead it is no longer suitable as 1) an organ donor or 2) even dog food. I don't get this "best summary link" at all. Looking at the unblock, maybe I was snookered, in effect if not by design in unblocking. What I find troubling is that Darkfrog 24 "has some essays ready to go". I get the impression there is an uncontrollable obsession that prevents DF24 from letting go of the subject. Ever have a scab you can't stop picking? Could someone please point me to the relevance of the Trump references in so far as TBAN's and sanctions are concerned? ( from what I hear in the news, the Trump-Putin election thing likely happened. I only hope FSB hasn't infiltrated Misplaced Pages.) Setting that aside, and returning to MOS, I see no benefit in lifting the TBAN, per comments above mine. Per this part of the unblock discussion "Darkfrog24 should probably enjoy this early Christmas present, and just get down to constructive editing in compliance with their topic ban. The stubborn determination to ignore good advice unless it is phrased as an "order" does not bode well. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:37, 7 December 2017 (UTC) @TenOfAllTrades: I hope not. Not snookered, I mean. This is a great opportunity to shake off the past and leap forward into a newer, clearer, brighter day!" -- Dlohcierekim (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2017 (UTC) I urge DF24 to find something else to do.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 12:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

  Further perusal has not changed my opinion.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 13:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• It seems fairly clear that this appeal is going to be denied; I do think we should give some thought to the terms on which it is denied. I see three options:

• Just deny the appeal
• Deny with another moratorium on further appeals (12 months? 2 years?)
• Consider this appeal a breach of the unblock conditions and reimpose the block

I'm generally reluctant to indef someone who is not entirely disruptive, but at some point, enough is enough. GoldenRing (talk) 07:58, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Darkfrog24: You have already appealed this ban to the arbitration committee – twice – and been denied. There is nowhere else. This noticeboard is powerless to overturn your ban on the merits, even if anyone here thought that was a good idea; you have exhausted your avenues of appeal on the merits. The only avenue left to you for this to be lifted is that you understand the problems you caused and know how to avoid them in future. Clearly you don't. GoldenRing (talk) 11:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Darkfrog24: This is the last time I'll say this (I hope): We understand that that is how you feel about this. But you have exhausted every avenue of appeal and been denied every time. So even if we thought there was a possibility that the original ban was unjust and wanted to wade through it all again to figure out the precise rights and wrongs of it all – for some here it would be the nth time of doing so – there is no point because we are never going to over-rule the arbitration committee's decision. Appeals to ARCA are final. No matter how unjust how think it is, your only option from here is to figure out why people are so upset with you – and from what I can see here, it's pretty universal – swallow your pride and come back in 12 months with a proposal that actually convinces us that relaxing the ban would be a good idea for Misplaced Pages. As things stand, your statements here are only hardening people's opinions against you. That is part of the problem you need to recognise. GoldenRing (talk) 13:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I suggest we now decline the appeal, prohibit any further appeals for 12m and block DF for one month for a Tban vio in her appeal and for using AE as a platform to attack her enemies. Thoughts? Spartaz 12:16, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. I will do so today if there are no objections from admins. While a block does not have full support, editors are warned that "isruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions." --NeilN 13:24, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I won't oppose that, though I think there is a big argument to be made for making the block indefinite as an ordinary admin action, for breaching the unblock conditions. GoldenRing (talk) 13:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Firkin Flying Fox

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Firkin Flying Fox

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 09:15, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Firkin Flying Fox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Gaming 500 edit rule: The following edits in sequence are representative of the users contributions following his return from a hiatus to reach 500 edits as that was now the requirement, and note this is an editor who had been here for years and made well-formatted edits from his very first edits:

1. creates article at 00:09, 8 April 2017
2. Bolds title, same minute
3. adds an aka, one minute later
4. ref, one minute later
5. reflist, same minute
6. another template, same minute
7. in progress template, next minute
8. adds a sentence, guess he's not the fastet typer as that took 3 minutes
9. ref next minute
10. another sentence, with ref, again 3 minutes
11. removes one of the refs from the above, same minute
12. removes a blank space, two mintes later
13. removes two words, two minutes later
14. adds sentence, one minute later
15. slight change, adds ref, one minute later
16. whitespace removed again, two minutes later
17. whitespace removed again, 8 minutes later
18. starts to add template to ref added in the last edit that didnt just remove whitespace, one minute later
19. continues on that same ref template, next minute
20. one more time to the same ref template, next minute
21. nope, not done yet, one more edit, same minute
22. man we almost had it, but one more same template, next minute

The same story played out at BGUSAT, where between 21:50-21:54 7 April and then between 23:57-00:07 7-8 April he stretched this series of minor edits into 19 edits. Same thing at Wepemnofret where adding a single reference took eleven edits.

Since reaching the 500 edits the user has been singularly focused on reverting in the ARBPIA topic area, gaming the 1RR:

1. 01:51, 5 June 2018
2. 24+3.5 hrs later

And finally I'll make note of the obvious, that this is a NoCal100 sock, see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/NoCal100 for evidence. This account specifically was previously found to be operating through open proxies and satellite services and a public wifi hotpsot at an airport, so I dont know that a CU will determine proof positive that he is NoCal, a user who is literally involved in every single arbitration case about this topic area, first as Isarig, then as NoCal and Canadian Monkey (2 for 1 is impressive), and then as Brad Dyer, but I'd ask you consider the evidence provided there as well. Either way, the account gamed the 500 edit restriction and has since been nothing but a revert warrior. Just peruse his contributions since he hit the 500th edit.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

N/A

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Notified of discretionary sanctions 16:48, 13 March 2014‎
• Notified about the 500/30 rule 22:06, 9 July 2016‎

Not a discretionary sanctions request though, this regards gaming the 500/30 restriction.

Additional comments

The sockpuppetry has never been dismissed. The first time raised it could not be confirmed as he had only operated from an airport. The second time the open proxies were blocked and he vanished for some time again. And based off the rather poor typing (and his trouble copy-pasting) in most of his comments I'd wager he is still editing through his phone to evade CU. All that can be ignored though, the user gamed the 500 edit restriction. That has previously resulted in an editor having the extended confirmed right removed until they petitioned to have it restored following making actual substantial edits. nableezy - 09:36, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@GoldenRing:, repeatedly using upwards of ten edits to add a single reference, when the user has previously demonstrated an ability to format them correctly in one go is not what you are looking for? What would convince you on gaming? Here are 8 edits strictly removing the word "the". 7 straight in2 minutes, thats almost AWB speed removing bolds. 7 more in two more minutes to add wikilinks. How would you like me to demonstrate that the user has gamed the 500 edit restriction? nableezy - 17:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Both of those are edits, not reverts. nableezy - 21:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Firkin Flying Fox

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Firkin Flying Fox

A master game player attempting to wikilawyer his way to getting his opponents banned. I have not gamed anything- I was informed I need to have more than 500 edits to be able to edit certain topics - so I did , getting there by , among other things, creating several new articles , , , and improving others: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Same_Old_Lang_Syne&type=revision&diff=741960917&oldid=741376168

This was done over the course of nearly 2 years - I must be really inept at gaming, if this is what I was trying to do. I mean, what is the point of making two edits within 2 minutes, supposedly "trying to game the system", and then waiting a few months for the next edit?

Not content with this, he is also forum shopping , using allegations of sock puppeting, which have been investigated in the past, and dismissed.

the only thing worse than this wikilawyering is the outright hypocrisy. These two edits are supposedly "gaming the 1RR restriction" -

1. 01:51, 5 June 2018
2. 24+3.5 hrs later , but look at his own editing on an article subject to the same restrictions:
3. - Revision as of 23:51, 3 June 2018
4. - Revision as of 05:45, 4 June 2018

- A clear 1RR violation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Firkin Flying Fox (talk • contribs) 09:36, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

And the outright lying - " The first time raised it could not be confirmed as he had only operated from an airport" - the first sock puppet investigation was done in October 2013- by which time I had been editing for more than 2 years. Does anyone seriously think I had 'only operated from an airport" for 2+ years? Ridiculous.

Thanks, @GoldenRing:, I fixed it. Firkin Flying Fox (talk) 20:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Darkfrog24

I'm a fan of the 500/30 rule, but the point is to 1) make it harder to create sock puppet accounts and 2) make sure new editors have a chance to learn some of our many, many ropes before getting involved in a subject that could get them banned or blocked. Upon cursory look, it seems FF has been here since ...2011? Everyone makes a mix of big and small edits. Unless there's some big reason to think that FF is either a neophyte or a sock, cut him a break and call it a day. I have to admit my own bias on this particular subject, but FF raises the idea that the complaint was filed to artificially remove someone who disagrees with the filer from the conversation. That is one of many things that could be going on here. That is not what the disciplinary system is supposed to be for. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:07, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Jbhunley

Just a FYI. I noticed two other accounts making rapid +1/-1 edits a few days ago. One was a new user and one had been around for a few years without having enough edits to be autoconfirmed, much like the case here. I do not have a baseline for how often this editing pattern shows up but three in as many days seems odd enough to comment on. Actually two was enough – see User_talk:Bishonen#Autoconfirmed_games Jbh 02:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Firkin Flying Fox

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I don't see anything actionable in the "gaming". It's not clear which conduct policy it could violate. If ArbCom says that you need an arbitrary number of edits to edit a topic, then we can't really fault editors who really want to edit the topic for trying to reach the magic number of edits as quickly as possible. The WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 sanction itself does not address this.

  Revert-warring in the ARBPIA area could be actionable, but we'd need more evidence for that. As to the socking allegation, this should be examined in the currently open SPI case. Sandstein 13:35, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Sandstein: Regarding "gaming", standard discretionary sanctions ("refrain from gaming the system") covers this. I and other admins have removed the extended-confirmed right from editors who have obviously gamed their way to 500/30. --NeilN 14:06, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• I definitely remember during the Gamergate situation several editors that were determined to have gamed the 500/30 system by lots of gnomish edits. The reason 500 edits was put in place was to make sure they had some type of reasonable edit history we could judge if they were an SPA or the like. --Masem (t) 00:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with Sandstein; everyone knows where SPI is and they are much better equipped to look into socking than us here. The allegation of gaming 500/30 is one I think where we need to assume good faith; some editors do edit like this, massing lots of edits on smaller changes. So while it's possible they consciously made more edits than necessary to make those changes, it's also quite possible they didn't. We have certainly seen far more egregious examples of gaming the restriction (and per NeilN I am not always averse to removing EC edit rights in obvious cases). And as for the edit-warring, a single example of two reverts in 27.5 hours, not reverting the same text, is not a thing sanctions are made of. GoldenRing (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Firkin Flying Fox: I think one of your diffs regarding Nableezy's alleged 1RR violation is not the diff you thought it was. GoldenRing (talk) 17:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Doesn't look like gaming to me. Firkin Flying Fox appears to edit only sporadically so we can't conclude that their edits are solely to get to the 500 mark and then unleash themselves in this restricted area. --regentspark (comment) 21:56, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• Suggest no action here. The SPI will probably have to rely on behavioral evidence as CU data is likely stale. Perhaps HJ Mitchell, who helped out in prior incidents, would again help out with the current report? --NeilN 01:11, 7 June 2018 (UTC)